Trump's Twisted Move to Distract from Epstein | Inside Trump's Head Podcast

Welcome to the inaugural episode of Inside Trump's Head. It's a dark and strange place. We're going to be spelunking there twice a week, but we have our guide, Michael Wolff, to ensure we don't get so lost we can't find our way back. And today we'll be focusing on Michael's exclusive conversations

with people in the White House who believe that on Friday, Donald Trump will get ready to give away chunks of Ukraine just to move the narrative away from the Jeffrey Epstein story which is beginning to really drag on his presidency and have the MAGA base turn against him. All right I'm Joanna Coles from the Daily Beast. I'm Michael Wolff. And what are we doing here?

We're going inside a fearful place, Donald Trump's head.

Donald Trump's head. And the reason we're doing it is because we know that there are hundreds of journalists covering the Trump administration. And they're covering it very well.

But I have always believed that they're covering it poorly.

OK, well, I want to say that because I know it's hard to cover this stuff. But the reason that I love talking to you about Donald Trump is because I think you have a completely different perspective and you cover it from the point of him not being a politician, not behaving by the rules, and you're not lamenting the fact he's not behaving by the rules and you're not lamenting the fact he's not behaving by the rules, you're just leaning into who he is which is ultimately a performer, a television producer and someone who is craving, who is desperate for attention

and will do anything to get it. You know it's also a different and I have tried to make this case so many times and it appears I'm made it badly because it never I never quite I never quite get across the point that I am not covering this as a journalist I'm covering this as a writer. And as a storyteller. This is about character it's not about policy it's not about process.

When you think about Donald Trump, you have to think about this guy, this person who is doing things for a whole variety of reasons that really have nothing to do with politics. They have all together to do with him, what he wants, what satisfies him, what weird cravings he has, what inner the inner demons are going on, what dominance. In the end it's all about dominance and attention. But again, not about politics, about this very, very unique person. A person like this who we have never seen

in the modern history of American politics.

And what I find so interesting is his ability to by sheer dint and force of his character to force the entire Republican Party to fall in behind him. And in fact, to really begin to squeeze the American institutions which are supposed to protect American democracy without wanting to sound

too hand-wringing about it, he has been able to squeeze them in a way that I think was unanticipated. And we have talked about this a lot on the Daily Beast podcast. And we decided to spin this off as a separate podcast, because we have been overwhelmed by the response from from viewers on

YouTube, from listeners on Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast, and the sheer number of comments, which we're simply not able to address. But we want to try and address more of the themes they raise in inside Trump's head where we are going to focus entirely on what the hell is going on in that crazed place.

Let me go back to that institutional point, the breaking of institutions that you just made. So in July 2017, I was sitting in the West Wing with Steve Bannon in Steve's office.

So this is what, five, six months after Trump has been elected and assumed the president?

Yes. And Bannon's view at that point was that this was – that Donald Trump was in some sense a tragic figure because the institutions in American life were so strong, so determined, so in a position to protect themselves. And Donald Trump was just one man against these institutions. And they were the deep state. And he would, Bannon thought, lose.

In this battle, he would lose. So the – and that was an interesting perspective. But the more interesting perspective, which we are seeing now, is that was an interesting perspective, but the more interesting perspective which we are seeing now is that he hasn't lost. Actually the institutions have lost.

Well and we as Americans arguably have lost too. I mean arguably the world has lost, right? I mean I just had a friend staying from Europe and she said everybody in Europe is now just hanging on Trump's every word, not only for the tariffs, but now because this week he's going to have his summit in Alaska with Vladimir Putin, and everybody in Europe is just trying to figure out what on earth is going to happen to Ukraine.

But let's just go back to the moment where you're sitting in the White House, Steve Bannon has invited you in, you end up spending how many months there? About eight months. And you write the first book about Trump's presidency which shows us the insanity of how he runs things. Right, I mean

that book's Fire and Fury which I think did the, you know, up until that point, it was very hard to characterize this guy, partly because people, the media, journalists, continued to see him in a political context. There must be a method here. There must be cause and effect. He must have goals that he wants to achieve, policy goals. When in fact, none of that that I believe, none of that

is true. I think it still haunts the way we – the way the mainstream media has – thinks about him and writes about him. But I think the truth is completely different from that. I mean at a polar opposite. He's not interested in policy, he's not interested in process, he's not interested in politics. He is interested in

Donald Trump. Well and to be fair to Donald Trump, whatever you think of him, he has made politics interesting to a much larger swathe of people. If you think about the way politics used to be reported, it was always through the lens of these fantastically erudite political reporters who sort of handed down almost insider information.

It always felt done from the outside. And as a reader, as someone trying to understand how first in Britain and then in America, things were actually being run, I didn't feel I really understood it. It didn't feel – it felt too technical. It felt dry. And suddenly we have a character who comes along – and possibly you could argue that

about Bill Clinton – but you come along, Donald Trump comes along and elbows everybody else out of the way.

Well, I think it's more extreme than that. I mean, we are, this has been, I mean, what is Donald Trump, the Donald Trump era been about? It's been about government by one person. No one else means anything. And no one is able to stand up to him? Well, no one can stand up to him because nobody, he just is, it's a process. Yeah,

I mean, it's his dominance, but also the fact that he just is unconcerned about what anyone else says. He doesn't actually in real time ever listen to what anyone else has said. I mean, I always think that that's a key thing that people overlook. He doesn't stop talking. This is not an exaggeration.

When you are with him, he just goes on. There is never a moment when you can get – anyone can get a word in edgewise.

Well, and there are also stark differences between how he's living in the White House now than when he was living there first time around. His daughter and son-in-law, Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump, nowhere to be seen.

His wife, Melania Trump, nowhere to be seen. Well, she was really, the truth is, not really there in the first White House.

But she's really not there now.

Really not there now. Jared is still there.

Well, he's not very visible.

No, no, but Jared can, and that's what everyone in the White House will tell you, can at any moment Bigfoot anybody. Okay, well that's interesting. No, no, we should spend some time on that. The Jared hidden hand, you know, Susie Wiles, the chief of staff, it's a Jared appointment.

So let's come back to that.

All right. Well, the point of this podcast, the point of this podcast is that we're going to be doing special episodes around certain characters that are very important within the Trump world. And obviously, we're going to be responding to the news. But this is going to be twice a week where we go deep, dark, spelunking into the head of Donald Trump.

And there, and focus on that. That is both metaphor and actual. What is in this? What motivates him? Why is he doing something? Why is this happening? Why is

this moment different from another moment? And that is because he woke up this morning and had indigestion in the night. Whatever. But again all about everything that happens, everything, a hundred percent, is because of the whims, desires, upset

stomach of one man. The upset stomach of one man, that's just so unpleasant to think about. And just for those who don't know Michael's entire oeuvre, at least on Trump you've written four best-selling books. There is no one better to set up as a guide to this dark place that we're going to go. So let's start with this week. We wake up on Monday morning to a Trump suddenly-staged press

conference where he announces that Pam Bondi is basically going to take over the policing of DC because he claims that DC is now hell on earth. It's overrun by criminals, partly to do with the fact that Big Balls, one of the younger members of Elon Musk's Doge team has gotten beaten up. And actually he looks very frightening.

He's covered in blood. It looks scary. He's supposedly defending the honor of a young woman. They were attacked by a gang or he was attacked by a gang. What's this all about? What's it actually about?

Well, let me go back about a week or so or 10 days when Trump started to say to everyone who would listen, and everyone listens to Donald Trump, but in the staffers and on the phone calls, the relentless phone calls that he's constantly making, he said, I need a big thing. I need a big thing.

I need a big thing.

What's the big thing? And everyone understood that this was code for I need a distraction from Epstein. What's the thing that will move us beyond that? And there were a lot of suggestions. I mean, one in some of this got a little traction. There was this suggestion to make Mondani, the New York mayoral candidate, make him the villain. He's the socialist left wing.

Who came out from nowhere, who beat Andrew Cuomo in the Democratic primary for New York mayor.

Right. So let's make him the villain. He's a real left winger. So let's make him the villain. He's a real left winger. We'll go after him. And they tried that a bit.

But it also doesn't seem a big enough idea to distract from the MAGA base's fury over their refusal to release more of the Epstein files.

Absolutely. It didn't get that traction. I mean Epstein still goes on behind everything. Epstein, Epstein, Epstein, that drumbeat. Then there was the suggestion, let's put troops into another city. Remember, they put troops into LA and that certainly commanded headlines for, you know,

that was-

A week. Yeah. A week. Right. for you know that week yeah a week right and then Epstein overshadowed that but obviously now they have taken that a step further and we had now have troops in Washington. So we've got the National Guard deployed and Pam Bondi's taken over the Metropolitan District of Policing. Right and this is a big deal and we should spend, let's spend a moment on that but in having this Trump going around saying I need a big thing, I need a big thing, he came up with the big thing now which is always this way

Trump's operates which is to say to ask a question and then answer it himself.

But is that because he hasn't got people around him who can think as diabolically as he can about how to shift the narrative? Because as you're always reminding us, he is a television producer.

Well he is that, but even if there were such people, he would not be able to hear them because he doesn't listen. I mean, again, and I cannot stress this enough, there is never a moment in which anyone can interrupt. It doesn't matter who you are.

He would do well on this podcast, then, because all the comments last week are about how I interrupt you. All the comments. In fact I began to think they were coming from an Albanian bot. Well I then then we can put you into the White House and see how you do. I would like to see if I could even begin to interrupt

him I'm sure I couldn't. So so that that is is it doesn't he is going to answer. We need a big thing. We need a big thing. What's a big thing? Do we know a big thing? I need a big thing.

And this is, and then he got to the big thing.

Well, he's got two big things this week because the other big thing that he got, which he announced last week, was he's meeting Putin for a summit in Alaska on Friday. So he's bookending the week with two big things.

Right. Well, that is – actually, that is what he got to. I'm going to have to do Ukraine. So he had been trying to avoid that because – but I'm going to have to do it. Why am I going to have to do Ukraine? Because that's the give to MAGA.

So wait a minute. When you say do Ukraine, what do you mean? I know he's been promising that he could solve this war.

Well, that's what he – I mean, I think do Ukraine means give MAGA what it wants on Ukraine.

And what does MAGA want on this? America to pull out?

Yes.

America not to be involved in foreign wars.

America first. So in other words, he's going to sacrifice Ukraine for Epstein. Essentially, this is, his mind a trade. It is the MAGA people who have pressed this Epstein issue constantly. I mean, they're the threat. It's not really the liberals who are the threat.

It's the MAGA people. So he will trade out. And he knows. He understands how exposed he is on Epstein. So he will trade out for a trade MAGA, trade Epstein for Ukraine.

And you're getting this from exclusive conversations you've had with people in the White House?

Yes. I mean, and so this is what – now, the interesting thing about people in the White House is that they really don't know what he's going to do either. I mean, and so they spend as much time speculating about what's in his head as we are going to spend time doing exactly that. But this is – I mean, this is what their interpretation, why are we doing this?

Why is he was off Ukraine trying to avoid that because it's intractable and trying to avoid going into a meeting just with Putin. So I mean, up until now, or more recently, I mean, there's been several changes in this, but more recently it's we'll only sit down with Putin if Zelensky is there. Now we've gotten rid of Zelensky. It's back to Trump and Putin together. And nobody in the White House can see this turning out

so well for Ukraine.

This is such an astonishing idea that because Donald Trump is paranoid about people exploring more about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein that he is prepared to sacrifice large chunks of landmass of Ukraine?

Yes, no, exactly. I mean this is, I mean so again the drumbeat, the Epstein drumbeat is real, it is unceasing, and it is threatening, most of all, to Donald Trump.

And what is it? I mean, we ran tapes that you had of your interviews with Jeffrey Epstein when he'd invited you to write a biography of him before I think anybody knew the extent of his underage sex ring. And he said he and Donald Trump were best friends for 10 years. What is at the heart of the relationship that Donald Trump, who has run roughshod through the last 10 years, what is it that he's so frightened about coming out? I mean, he said himself,

I could stand on Fifth Avenue and shoot people, nobody would care. Now they seem to care. Now Maga does seem to care. How has he played this wrong and what is he so afraid of?

Well, I mean, I think there are a couple of things. I mean, yes, he could stand and shoot someone on Fifth Avenue but it is arguably worse that it turns out that he was joined at the hip for years and years and years with someone who we now understand to be the worst person on earth. The most diabolical. And that person and you can build a portrait of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein as the

same person. It's very, you know, they were interested in the same things, girls. Mysterious sources of income. Yes. You know, girls and money is basically what they were interested in. Sex, money models. Yeah, you know, these were, you know, and

they were proud of their loeshness and their misbehavior. Did you just say loeshness? I

did. Is that supposed to be loeshness? I would say loosh.

You say loesh? New Jersey loesh.

Okay. I've never heard of the word loesh.

You say loesh, I say loosh. And so I mean I think that is truly threatening. And there also is the business stuff. You know, behind everything that Trump has tried to obscure for many, many years is his business dealings, his tax dealings, his – Which we've still never seen his tax returns, right? So I think all of that underlies Jeffrey Epstein. But then this other thing, too, is that the MAGA people,

remember, the MAGA people have built Jeffrey Epstein up to represent the thing that they hate most, which is this specter of a group of elites running the world and creating a world in which no one else has agency but these elites. So suddenly you have a thing where it turns out – and yes, I mean Bill Clinton is connected to Epstein, a whole long list of people, but no one is as closely connected to Epstein,

to Jeffrey Epstein, as Donald Trump.

Okay, so no one is as closely connected to Jeffrey Epstein as Donald Trump. I'm very curious about this idea that the Russians and Putin in particular have some form of compromise on Donald Trump. And as we know, and as we've talked about before on the podcast, and you've mentioned, he sent in his golfing buddy and real estate buddy,

Steve Whitkoff, to negotiate with Putin. He's had four meetings with the Russians. He won't take anybody else in. He insists on doing it on his own. So we have no idea what they actually talked about. Where does the conversation on Friday…

Well, let me give some additional background here. And let me go to Steve Bannon. And Steve Bannon is an interesting… I think I will continue to bring up Steve because Steve, when he is telling the truth, is incredibly insightful about Donald Trump. What does that mean when he is telling the truth is incredibly insightful. What does that mean when he's telling the truth? Well when Steve in public will be the defender of Donald Trump and be the you know the ultimate MAGA guy and in private he is he he eviscerates Donald Trump and tears him down and actually I think understands

him. So and I know the private Steve Bannon. As a matter of fact I know it so well that I wrote about it and then got him, got Steve cast out of the Trump circle and he has worked his way back into it. But let's go to what he has actually said because it's to me invariably insightful and incredibly smart about Trump. Steve in Europe. When Trump met Putin for a one-on-one meeting in Helsinki in 2018, I was with Steve Bannon and I were in Europe together. So we witnessed the

press conference that happened after that meeting. Now I also know the background to that meeting is that Trump refused to prepare for it. Of course he did. And then refused to have anyone else in the meeting. So it was just it was just Putin, Trump and the translators. And and they came out of that that meeting I think that meeting may have lasted an hour and a half two two hours, something like that. It came out of that meeting. I'm with with Bannon and we're seeing this press conference.

And and Bannon says, my God, he looks like a beaten dog, meaning Trump. And then Bannon went on to speculate what must Putin have on Trump. Although Steve's thing that he was his favorite was that Putin had Trump's college transcript.

Which again, have never been released,

and we would love to read.

Which Steve said would be just the most. Trump could almost get away with everything else, but the humiliation of his D's at the Wharton School would, might have crushed him.

And I always like to remind people he went to Wharton as an undergraduate after doing the first couple of years at Fordham.

Yes. And also worth pointing out that it's not Wharton School of Business, it's the undergraduate so he did not have an MBA.

Right. At any rate. So again. So Bannon who was one of his closest advisors saw him coming out of the press conference with Putin and thought Putin has something on him. He looks completely beaten up.

Like a beaten dog. That's quote, unquote. My God, I can just, I can hear Bannon now saying, he just could not believe it. And so anyway, so we're going to repeat that one-on-one, Putin and Trump, in which they are going to decide the fate of Ukraine.

And I predict that the Jeffrey Epstein story will then perhaps die down for a few days if he really does give away large chunks of Ukraine and Zelensky's not part of it. That will definitely supersede the Epstein narrative, but it feels like the Epstein narrative is always going to come back.

Yeah, no, and it occurs to me, what does Putin know about Jeffrey Epstein?

Inside Trump's head. Michael Wolff, you've taken us there. We've got to escape somehow. Thank you very much. And more to come.

Much more.

Michael, how was that for you? Our inaugural episode of Inside Trump's Head.

It was good for me, Joanna. How was it for you?

Very fun, very fun. And I think you've always said that at some point almost everybody in America is thinking why is he doing this?

And I think that we can come as close to answering that question as as it's possible. You know I think because we proceed from the point of view that you have to get inside and the mainstream media view of press to the glass doesn't work here.

If you've been listening, thank you. Please subscribe, share this podcast and leave us a comment. We want to do episodes that are based on comments, questions, some of your theories. This is important because what

does everybody at some point, many people at some point every day say, why is he doing this? Why is this happening? How did this happen? This is what we ought to come close, certainly closer, I think, than anyone else has to answering those questions.

All right, I will see you later in the week.

You will.

Thank you to our producers, Devin Rogerino, Anna von Oersen, Devin Rogerino, Anna von Oersen, and our editor, Jesse Millwood.