El mismo hombre nos marcó para siempre: 17 años guardando un secreto que también era de mi mamá

How did you feel when you found out that your son was going to play?

But after the time, it was uncomfortable for me to be living with him. He said we were going to play and there were tickles. After a while, he became uncomfortable, crazy, it was because he became abrupt. I did tell him no, I told him to stop. When I told him no, he just laughed. I took bills and put them in his clothes.

It was like a need from him. When your mom asked you why you were afraid of the Lord, what did you say? After I was 15, I told my mom.

What did you feel when you found out that the same person who had done that to you,

years ago, had done it to your mom. We greet you again from Cali, in the south of Colombia. In the last episode, we were able to learn about the story of Natalie. And just as we announced it, today we will be talking to her daughter Camila. This case has really left us quite shocked, because both Natalie and our guest today have been victims of the same person.

Well, she suffers something very similar to what I suffer and many have criticized me in the comments, and it is that when she is a little nervous she laughs, just like me. So you will see her right now. is The shame has to change sides. Camila, I also want to tell you that Camila is a minor, she is 17 years old, she is about to turn 18, and this interview is supervised by the French psychiatrist Roberto Sicard. Hey, you are a very smiling girl. You told me that you were a little shy because you thought we were very serious, but no.

We are here to listen to you, to talk to you, to know your story. We thank you for giving us that vote of confidence to say, I want to do that interview with them, I want to tell my story. Let's start a little backwards, a little less backwards. How was the relationship with your dad? How were those first years where you have like consciousness, six, seven years old? How was that relationship and that

home between your dad and your mom?

Well, I don't have many memories because I don't remember much, but it was very good, the conviviality was very cool. There were moments where the typical problems of a couple and the rest were super good, really.

Why did they separate?

I don't know that. I was 8 years old, if I'm not mistaken. And they just made the decision to keep separating. And that's it. And after the separation of your parents, what happened to you? I stayed with my dad for a while.

My mom did go to Cali, but I stayed with my mom for a while, not with my dad. Not for long. And then I went with her to Cali, I stayed with my mom for a while, not with my dad, not much. And then I went with her to Cali, and that's where I met, no, I didn't meet, I started living with my grandmother.

How does your childhood start, how were those first years, how does your family get together?

My first years were until I was 9, I lived with my mom, my dad and my brother. At that time, it was super cool, everything was fine. After I was 9, I went with my mom to live in Cali. We started living here in Cali. My mom started working in a private garden.

Let's go to the present. I want to know a little more about you. What do you do for a living? What do you study?

I'm in college. I'm studying social work.

What semester are you in?

In the third. Why did you choose that career? social In case a mystery was in El Tercero por que es con esta carrera siempre me llamo a la tensión o sea no siempre pero si me llama la atención mucho como trabajar con niños más que todo yo les decía antes a mi mamá que quería ser profesora y ese tipo de cosas pero no en sí como enseñar si no que con otro tema diferente como niños que necesiten de verdad como la ayuda but not in itself as a teacher, but with a different topic, like children who really need help,

and more than anything, people with low resources who need it, who want to be heard, and I've always liked that, and that's why I chose the career. Camila, when we talked to your mom, she told us everything she experienced in her childhood. Did she ever tell you, did you have that conversation with her

about what she experienced in her childhood? No. No, she never told me anything.

We want to clarify that not exactly what happened, but she didn't tell you about the context of violence, poverty.

About poverty, yes. She did tell me about my grandmother. That my grandmother worked a lot, that she would close the street and sell things. That's true. I don't quote, but

or when I heard that she told friends or my dad, en la calle vendiendo cosas, eso sí. O sea, no en sí todo, pero pues... O cuando escuchaba que le contaba a amigos o a mi papá, sí como que me enteraba más o menos de lo que le había pasado en la infancia, o cómo vivían.

Más no que había tenido ese problema ya más delicado. Solo te comentaba como el tema económico y algún tipo de violencia física.

Pues violencia física en sí, no... the economic issue and some kind of physical violence.

Well, physical violence itself, no, no.

She didn't tell you much about that.

When we talked to your mom, she told us that when your relationship with your dad ended and you went to live at your grandmother's house with your grandmother's partner, you started to have certain changes. What do you remember about those changes at that moment? It was very strange the time I interacted with people. I mean, I hid when I came to visit the house, I hid behind the chair, behind the people.

And there, I didn't see people. It's weird. I saw neighbors in and I ran, I was scared. I didn't do that before, but I felt like someone was telling me to go. I jumped, I got scared and so on. My grandmother always said that I was very nervous. Yes, I became very nervous. I mean, no one could have physical contact with me

because I was trying to hide or get away. And I also cried a lot. I cried and cried and cried. And my grandmother would say that it was because of my mom. She would say that because she left, that she scolded me, that we fought, one thing or another. And she would say that it was because of my mom, because I kept crying, I cried. no que si peleamos, que una cosa a la otra. Y decía que sí, que era por mi mamá, porque yo mantenía llorando, lloraba.

Así de la nada, empecé a llorar. Y esos cambios fueron a raíz de lo que empezaste a vivir desde muy pequeña. Sí, siento que sí, porque no sé, o sea, hay veces como que no entendía por qué lloraba ni por qué me comportaba así, Yes, I feel like I did because I don't know, sometimes I didn't understand why they were crying and why I was behaving like that,

it was just my reactions. And now that I see this, I think that yes, it was based on that. I think it's important that, from the beginning, that I start everything, to talk about,

did you already know that person or did you get to live with them and what happens? desde el principio que comenzó todo, hablar de... ¿Tú ya conocías a esa persona o llegas a convivir con ellos y qué pasa? Yo ya los conocía, pero no... no teníamos como... no los veía mucho. O sea, llegamos en alguna fecha importante como Navidad y para algún cumpleaños, no sé. Cada año como dos veces. Al año lo veíamos. like Christmas and for some birthday, I don't know. Every year like twice a year we saw her.

The rest, we didn't have contact with her. And how did that coexist with your grandmother? With my grandmother, with all of them, the truth is. It was when my mom left to go there, when my parents separated. And we went, and of course, it was the next meeting. And how was it to live with them, with your grandmother and her partner?

At first, it was good. I chose a lot of love, more than anything, for my aunt, their daughter. I chose a lot of love. At first, it was cool, it was good. On the part of my grandmother and my uncles, everything was fine. But on the part of him, after the storm, it was uncomfortable for me to be living with him. viendo con él. ¿Era incómodo porque tu mamá nos contaba que él la observaba, la perseguía, la molestaba? En tanto a observarme no lo sé porque no... Pero en sí como... no sé. Cada vez que estaba con él era maluco porque no lo miraban a uno como con... The first time I was with him, he was crazy because he was not looked at with family eyes, but I don't know, he was crazy. And because, let's say, at the beginning we played, so to speak.

And he called her like that, he told her that we were going to play. And they were tickles, tickles that you had to caress, one thing and the other, and after a while it became uncomfortable, crazy, it was because it became abrupt, and I didn't touch myself with tickles, but with touches that were not... That were not a game? When you witness those kinds of games and you start feeling like you're telling us

and you were very little, you were only 9 years old

Yes Did you ever try to tell someone? No I never told anyone because I didn't feel like it was something that had to be told in and he would laugh. That was the only thing he did, he would laugh and laugh and it made him laugh. When I would tell him no, he would just laugh.

And did your grandmother ever notice

anything that was happening?

Well, I don't think so. I mean, sometimes I start thinking and I say, it's weird, because most of the time she was there close to me she was in the kitchen, in the room, like that and he was carrying me a lot

he was carrying me a lot and he was always sitting on my legs and sometimes she was in the kitchen and I was here in the living room there was no distance

and... I didn't know and I was here in the living room, not far away. And...

I didn't know, but sometimes I find it strange because I was talking, I was always saying no and saying no and she just looked and continued. So, sometimes I say, it seems strange to me that she supposedly didn't notice.

Of course, you couldn't... I mean, you didn't understand that it was serious, obviously.

Yes, I thought it was something normal, because my mom always taught me that no one could touch me, but I saw it as something important, so to speak, to tell someone. And I was also afraid that I would not grow up, if a problem arose and the family separated. I was always afraid that the family would separate. And that's why I never said anything.

Something I saw that he did, which I had already told you, which he also did with my cousin, which always starts with a game, and it's something that can be quite noticeable, because a game of tickling with a person, I think it's not...

I mean, I see that a woman tickling a child like that, or carrying him, I feel that a child should never rest. Do you understand me?

Sure.

Because, I don't know if it's because I've already been there and I'm already upset, but I think the games, that a child is in charge, I think they are already alert, that something is there or that they have bad intentions. And on the part of the children, the attitudes of the children, how they become, they become very nervous. actitudes de los niños como se vuelven que se vuelven muy nerviosos digamos yo me volví muy nerviosa no dejo que nadie me toque que nadie se

me acerque porque ya es como miedo entonces yo también he visto niños que hay niños que usted intenta como tocarlos y les da miedo y es porque yo digo que es porque algo pasa algo les debe pasar algo les deben hacer I'm not going to be able to do it. I'm not going to be able to do it. I'm not going to be able to do it. I'm not going to be able to do it. I'm not going to be able to do it. I'm not going to be able to do it. I'm not going to be able to do it. I'm not going to be able to do it.

I'm not going to be able to do it. Something I always did, which is something I don't like, that other people don't do, is that I would buy myself, so to speak. And always, after this, we would go to the store. Or a vice I had when I was growing up, I was like 14 I took bills and I put them in my clothes and that's something that I don't like that people say

I'm going to pay you for this thing because they bring me memories so I'm going to buy you for doing this, I don't like that because I always did it when I was little, I bought things. Or I went somewhere to buy things like that. And when I was older, I put money in my clothes.

So...

And what did he say? Why did he give you that money?

Nothing. He always laughed. I have a memory of him laughing. He laughed and laughed and laughed. For everything. He laughed for everything. He laughed at me and when he bought me things and when we were in the moment.

How did he look in front of people when he was with you?

He was the best person. He didn't even touch me. no. El ni me tocaba. El simplemente me cogía cuando estábamos en la calle o cuando íbamos a la iglesia, me cogía el hombro porque él iba a la iglesia. ¿Te llevaba a la iglesia con él? Sí. Íbamos para la iglesia. Ellos me hacían madrugar. Me hacían despertar como a las seis de la mañana para ir a la iglesia. They would wake me up at 6 in the morning to go to church. And he would always stay with me. He would always stay with me.

And he would go everywhere. We would go here, we would go there. Buy me things here, buy me things there.

And in church, what was he? I'll give you an example. He was the collaborator, the preacherative, the most helpful with the pastor, the one who raised his arms the most, or the most introverted.

I don't know. He was the typical one. He went to church normally, and there... I'm not going to say the name of the church because... But they're the typical ones who put up the flags and start jumping and stuff and he did the same and sometimes I would look at him and say

this is not going to work at all because I had in mind that it was a sin I would always say, he is committing a sin because

I would say that

so I would say that he was praising God. And my thought was that he was not gaining anything by doing it. Do you understand me? He was doing it. I don't know if you think that salvation is when you go to church and they kneel and ask for forgiveness after having committed, rather, the biggest crime.

When you start to grow up and start to be aware tú a querer decir, prefiero no decir nada, aunque mi mamá me lo pregunte, porque Nathalie nos contaba que ella empezó a ver como esos cambios tuyos, que incluso un día estabas golpeada y que ya no supo qué pasó ese día. and that he didn't know what happened that day? Well, about the beatings, I don't know, I don't remember. But I do know that he hit me really hard. He did hit me when he forced me, because I always pulled, I took myself away. So my strength, taking myself away and his strength, pulling me, made him stronger.

And of course, he grabbed me too hard. I used to not leave marks on my arms. And yes, he grabbed me very hard. He grabbed me everywhere, the abdomen, the abdomen left me with pain, the arms when I pulled, the legs when he put pressure on me, because he sat me. He sat me on him and he would put pressure on me. When he would hit me, he would put too much pressure on me. So, I would always have like...

Bones and bruises.

And the pain. I was in pain because, of course, I'm thin right now. When I was younger, I was thinner, I was very delicate. So, of course, with the force, he left me hurting. And when what he was telling you, you start to become aware, you realize that what you were living was not normal,

it was not a game like he painted it for you. What alternatives do you start to take to inhibit yourself a little from that reality? Well, there was a time when I went to go with my mom to Jamundi after I appeared with the beatings on my back I went to go with my mom and I came back home

but it was to see my aunt because I got too close to them and they told me to be the same person until I was going and pick it up. I remember that once the house was full of family, so I couldn't do anything. It was like a need of his. It's kind of weird because it was like necessary.

And we went to buy some rice and I remember that he turned around a street and was alone, the road was alone and he told me, he sent his hand back and I remember that he said, come to the school for the last time, before I went to where my mom was, because it was Sunday and I was going to school on Monday morning. So he told me, and he was driving and he was sending his hand back and I was running, the And You see me Korea you make or yes a la punta tras de la moto se distancia me corria satras para que no alcanzar a

y

como que no no logro y se fue como es ni compro el arroz llegó a la casa sin el arroz llegamos a la casa sin nada que porque no había no fui a comprar el arroz y lo pierdan hasta por

Domicilio and we didn't even go to buy rice and they asked for it even for...

for a house

Would you like to tell us more about what you lived with him? I mean, when you still lived together

Well, it was always the same It was very daily, as I said, it was like a necessity of his. If he couldn't find the way, he would look for the way to do it. And even if he couldn't do it, he would try to put the needle inside the clothes. But I would do more strength than normal. And to count more? No. It was always the same. for I did feel it, I felt it when they touched me. And I touched myself again, I tried to touch myself,

even though I told him no, I kept touching myself. And his looks, they weren't normal looks. At some point, your mom told us that she told you not to be alone with him, not to trust him, decía ella nos contó que te decía en a estar sola con él nadie darle ninguna confianza que te decía tu mamá frente a él si siempre me decía lo mismo con todas las personas que no me dejará no me

quedará sola sola con nadie en los cuartos que no me dejará cargar y siempre me repetía lo mismo yo no sabía el por qué pero ella siempre me recalcó eso pero si me di cuenta que me lo decía cuando yo me empecé a ir para allá pero ella no me lo decía como referente a él sino que me decía como en general que no me vaya a quedar sola con nadie que ni con mis tíos con nadie y así es todo preveniéndome con but she told me in general that I shouldn't be alone with anyone or with my uncles, with anyone

and that's how I was preventing myself from that When you went to live in Jamundi with your mom did you start having nightmares? What started happening to you at that moment? The nightmares, well, it's crazy they still happen to me nowadays I also get up in the morning I still have nightmares.

Nowadays I also wake up in a lot of screams, with my heart like this. And when I was younger, my mom would tell me. Or when I woke up, I was standing. I was standing like this.

My mom told me, I was like this with a headache me I woke up with a headache I tried to jump down some stairs and she pushed me back the only thing she did was to push my hair back and I went back

and she took me and she tied me up with her she squeezed me and she kept me like this standing, screaming and I always dreamed of a man It wasn't a man, it was a boy.

And he was a monkey. He was a monkey, and I told my mom, the monkey was... The dream was so heavy because I was a little thing in bed, and he was looking at me. And he was looking at me, and he was looking at me, and he was looking at me, and I felt fear.

I felt that fear, butía ese miedo pero nunca me hacía nada simplemente estaba parado en la punta de mi cama o se sentaba así y me miraba y yo le decía a mi mamá siento miedo al señor porque me miraba y no lo conocía y cuando tu mamá te preguntaba sobre por qué le sentías miedo al señor tú qué le respondías And when your mom asked you why you were afraid of the Lord, what did you say? I don't know. But you knew what it was?

Well, not really. Because sometimes I dreamed of the Lord. I dreamed of Him. And I just told my mom that it was someone else.

Just to tell her the dream.

So you dreamed about your aggressor but you told your mom? Not always. I didn't always dream about him, but the times I dreamed about him, I couldn't tell my mom because my mom didn't know anything about me dreaming of him. And the monkey thing, it was him. I was dreaming of him and I told my mom it was the monkey because that's what they call him. They call him the monkey. So, I don't know, in my little head

I don't know how I was telling my mom things and she didn't notice.

So I was trying to change them so that I didn't know how to tell my mom, and she didn't realize.

So I tried to change them, so they wouldn't be a problem.

And you start having those nightmares, you start feeling that despair 9 to 10, 11, something like that. When I turned 14, I don't know, I changed a lot. My way of thinking was different, I kept getting bored, I kept looking at it and it's hard to explain, or weird, because I don't understand. Thoughts of being bored came to me. I don't know, it's something I can't explain why they come, but it's like a thought or something that falls on you that is like I'm tired and I don't want to live at all. And my solution for me, for everything, to get rid of it from the age of 14 to 16,

even though I was afraid. Because, I don't know, I didn't have that thing that I couldn't do it. But I did it anyway because I took some pills. I took some pills from my grandmother, my great-grandmother, which are for sleeping. And when I went to that house,

the last time I went was when I was 15 years old. She took some psychiatric pills. She was in psychiatry and they gave her some pills. But those pills had been around for a long time. And I took those to my house. And I took pills to sleep, like five pills.

And from the psychiatric ones I took up to the...

The tablet.

The tablet, of 10 pills. And that's it. Once, I was sleeping. pastillas y ya. Yo mantenía durmiendo. Mi mamá trabajaba con... mi mamá trabajaba con Minestar. Ya mantenía abajo. Y pues yo en el colegio, con sueño, aburría, me daba mal genio que en medio me hablaran y me aburría estudiar. Yo era como que no and I got bored studying. I was like, I don't want to. What for?

It's not going to help me at all. And that's how I maintained myself. I slept, I took pills and I vomited. I vomited too much. I vomited those pills, I imagine. And sometimes I didn't even eat.

When I ate, I provoked vomiting myself. And I took pills. comía me provoca yo mismo el vómito y tomaba pasillas

y eso también te afectaba tu relación con tus compañeros tenías amigos amigas

yo amigos ni tenía o sea después después de que yo como que tuve una recaída yo aleje a todo el mundo yo no le hablaba a nadie a mí me hablaban y yo como que no me hable de eso, yo era muy grosera yo le peleaba a todo el mundo hasta los I avoided everyone, I didn't talk to anyone, they didn't talk to me, and I didn't talk to myself, I was very rude. I fought everyone, even the teachers. I started to dislike them because I became rude, I didn't want anyone to talk to me and I was boring everyone. I just wanted to be alone. I would sit in the classroom, looking at myself.

While the teacher was talking, I didn't even look at her. Mirando feo. Mientras la profesadora hablaba, ni la miraba. Simplemente quedaba ahí y ella simplemente se me acerca y me decía que me pasaba, que tenía que apresar la atención. Yo le decía no. Yo era groserísima. Le decía que no y que no. Y me quedaba ahí. Y así pasaba descansos, clases, veíamos como cuatro clases en las mañanas. Y así me pasaba todas las clases. We had like four classes in the mornings, and that's how I spent all my classes.

And when did you realize that what you were feeling at that moment was a consequence of what you had lived before? After I was 14, I realized that it was because of that. I mean, not in itself, but I had realized it. And after I was 15, I told my mom. I wrote her on a piece of paper.

I wrote her how I felt. I remember that I wrote her, before telling her about him, I told her that I was dead in life. Because I felt that. I was not... I was in a state of miracle. I was alive for... who knows why, but... I just started writing him and I told him, your daughter is dead in life, I don't know, because we had a fight.

Because I don't remember. But I just, I don't know, I was a fight, I don't remember why, but I was so bored that I just wrote to her. I wrote and wrote and wrote. And in the bottom part, the last thing I told her was that a relative of hers was doing something like that to me. I don't remember very well, but I remember that in the letter I had told her how I felt and I told him what he... I didn't tell him about him, I just told him that a relative of hers was doing that to me.

When you wrote that letter, did you still... Did you still live those episodes with him?

That was... Before my birthday, my birthday was on theth they celebrated my birthday like the 6th I don't remember Your 15th My 15th and before they celebrated my birthday

I, in that week it was my birthday on the weekend and in between weeks I went there, in that moment, he also did it but I didn't... I didn't force myself as much as when I was little. I just said like, what a laziness, it was already annoying me.

And I had already gotten used to it, so to speak. And I just pulled and said no. Sometimes I even hit him. I hit him with the base and she would stay still because it would hurt her so I was like, with laziness and all that so the last time was before I was 15

Cami, when you tell your mom in the letter what happened after?

That letter was a miracle because I remember I left the letter on the dining table and I went upstairs. I had taken some pills and I regretted writing the letter. But there was a moment when I fell asleep in the toilet and I said, I'm going to go down for the letter, I'm going to throw it away.

And I want to emphasize, that has not been the only letter that I have written. I have a vice of writing a lot, I write everything I feel. And I wrote, I wrote how I felt and those things, and I always added the sheets. And that letter that I wrote there had to be one of the sheets. And that letter I wrote to him had to be one of the most sheets I had written. But I don't know, that day I fell asleep.

I fell asleep and I stayed there on the bed until the morning that my mom woke me up to ask me. And I felt really bad because I woke up with fear that he would notice, I don't know, that he would notice my mom. Because I was saying, no, my mom is the stepfather, he must love her a lot, maybe my mom will move away. I was afraid that the family would separate. And he woke up like the one I had,

and he was angry with me at that moment because I was saying a lie, I wrote it there, and I fell asleep, I fell asleep, and I felt angry for me, and afraid that he would go through that letter. con rabia por mí y miedo de que fuera a pasar por esa carta pero si sentí un alivio porque mi mamá no fue como a regañarme

y sino que sentí como no sé fue como un jaloncito más como que abrazó tu realidad y te te abrazo a ti en ese momento. ¿Qué te dijo ella? Solamente me preguntó. Ella me llamó y me dijo que fuera. Y yo bajé, y yo sí bajaba asustada porque nosotras nos habíamos peleado en la mañana siguiente.

Entonces yo dije, no pues, yo no me acuerdo, no sé raro. Porque pues como me había tomado las pastillas no estaba en sí tan, tan consciente por así decirlo. I don't remember, I don't know, it's weird because I had taken the pills and I wasn't so conscious, so to speak So I got out, and I asked myself who it was why he was saying that, and he started reading the letter and I started crying, I don't even remember what he said because I was just in my thoughts and I was crying and crying.

She asked me what I was doing. She told me that if I didn't know who she was, I would tell her. I didn't tell her anything. I just cried. I remember I just cried. How did you find out that she was her stepfather too. If I'm not mistaken, that same day we went out and we went to a park. We went to a park with my stepfather

and we sat down, just the two of us, over there, far away. And she started telling me what had happened to her. I think she did start telling me empezó a contar, y me dijo, así de una, fue él. Y yo le acepté, le dije que sí,

y me puse a llorar más, que esa ha sido mi única respuesta, llorar.

¿Qué sentiste cuando te enteraste de que la misma persona que te había hecho eso años atrás se lo había hecho a tu mamá?

El pensamiento de culpa que tenía hacia mí, la rabia que tenía hacia mí, como que cambió. Me sentí como más liviana porque sent the family, that they would go away.

But what made you feel that your mom had gone through the same?

I started crying. That was the only thing that... I started crying. That was the only thing I did. I didn't have feelings at that moment. I had a block. I didn't understand it well. The only thing I did was cry. The only thing I did was cry. All I did was cry. And now that you're older, more aware of what happened, how do you live it?

How do you take it? How do you understand that your mom also lived the same thing? Right now I feel very good, because I didn't decide to keep quiet, because at first I wanted to first I told my mom that I didn't want to that we were going to be grown ups, but she did ask me

and she told me that we were going to be away from my grandmother, my uncles, everything we were going to be practically alone, just the two of us, my stepfather and my sister and the family on my father's side and we were going to move away from everything. I told her that no, no, no, and I was going to move away from the house. I think the first time I decided to stay quiet was when I talked to an uncle, cuando hablo con un tío, el hermano de ella, y le pregunto, él le pregunto a la niña,

mi prima, y ella le dijo que no, pero que él jugaba con ella a cosquillas y la tocaba and I touched it through the game. I remember that I heard it, I heard it, I heard it and I looked crazy. I was sitting on the floor with a pencil and a notebook, scratching. That's the only thing I remember. I was sitting on the floor, my mom was down talking to my uncle, and I was sitting on the floor, scratching the sheet. Scratching it and scratching it.

And it was so strong that I was going to pass the sheets. I was going to pass up to 10 sheets with the same pencil. Scratch it and scratch it. And my mom went up. My mom went up and started crying. And I couldn't hear my her cry because it destroyed me.

I'm very sentimental. I let go of everything. She started crying and I told her that I wanted her to take me. I told her that I wanted her to take me to report me. She said yes. My uncle also went up and told me that... I don't remember well, but he also told us that

reporting was the best thing. And yes, the next day we went to report. It was horrible because... it was horrible to be sitting in front of someone I don't know, telling him a story that I don't like to touch anyone and it was horrible.

And more because it was recent, I was with... I was on top of everything. And I didn't talk to them. I remember that they just put what my mom said in my face and that I didn't look. And that was sent to me by psychiatry, by psychology, because my only reaction was to look at the floor and that's it.

What made you want to tell your story and make it public?

When I started studying social work, I realized that it wasn't just me, social. Me cuenta que no solamente fui yo ni yo, sino que son millones de personas que están pasando por lo mismo y hasta peor. Y me cambió hasta la forma de ver las cosas porque yo no quería prácticamente nada con la vida. Tuve hasta ocho intentos de suicidio. I had up to eight attempts to graduate. And the last one was in December, less than a year ago, when I started thinking and I said, I have a thousand things ahead of me.

I received a psychology degree at my university, they started talking to me. The same teacher told me that I had a lot of social work. They can ask me anything and I'm happy talking about that. I'm happy talking about children. And in the middle of the two semesters that I had, I had to do interviews.

We interviewed children. I said, I have a need, making other people understand that we don't have to be afraid of anything. I mean, talking is like the best thing because you take away a relief, but we can prevent other people from being harmed by that same person. Because a rapist doesn't go for just one victim, he can go for thousands, and I realized that with my mom. personas de que esa misma persona le haga daño a los demás porque un asesor no va por solamente una víctima, el puede ir por miles y eso me di cuenta con mi mamá y también quería cortar la cadena, que si llego a tener familia pues que no vayan a pasar lo mismo que yo

y no sé, llegar a millones de personas para también que tengan, no confíen tanto, que And I don't know, millions of people will come so that they don't trust so much that even in their own family they can find the enemy. And yes, to prevent families and make me listen.

For many people who are living it,

who don't live it, it's difficult to understand.

How do you describe that pain? Is it an immense burden to carry, or is it the discomfort of living with this? How do you describe and how does that lead you to say I don't want it anymore, I can't live with this?

That's what I get, it's like very difficult to explain to a person who has never gone through depression or anxiety, because depression is like, it's something that no one is ever going to tell anyone because it is an impressive weight, it is something that I cannot explain. Feeling burdens, feeling the desire not to live anymore, it is something that I cannot explain. A person with depression can easily understand me, that feeling sad, and not sad like the normal feeling, but it's like sadness that gets you to the point of feeling tired. And you even feel tired.

Sometimes I didn't do anything and I felt a fatigue in my body, everything hurt, and it's something I don't understand. Now, after everything you've been through, after you've been able to tell your story, you've been able to tell your mom, and today you're telling it to a whole country, to many countries that see us, you are aware that many women sometimes shut up all their lives. Look at your mom, you could have done it before, but I would like you to leave a message

for the women who are watching us right now haven't been able to tell their truth yet. It doesn't matter how old you are, because no matter how old you are, if you are about to turn 60, speak up. Because, I don't know,

you carry that weight especially for people who have been falling for so many years, it's that weight of I don't know, something famous came out, that has a doll dressed in blue and it's like cutting, to cut,

to feel the relief, to let go of the fear, to leave everything behind, and to speak. Because I don't know a woman who isn't brave,

I don't know a woman who isn't capable. So, speaking is the solution to a lot many things, even if at the moment you are talking, you are more afraid,

but after everything happens, after you feel that justice was done, and you did what you had to do, you feel a very nice relief, you feel good, you feel free of many things, no matter how small they are, I feel good, I don't shut up.

How do you heal? Or do you never heal?

One does not heal the whole, but healing doesn't come from others but from yourself. If you stick to being there and there and there and you don't want to leave the hole, so to speak, you will never heal. I say that no matter how many psychologists see me, no matter how many psychiatrists I go through, no matter how many medications I take, I wouldn't heal if I did not want to. Because it is a voluntary act. It is wanting to move forward, to leave that hole.

You do not heal the 100, but you can heal on your own. That is how healing is based. And apart from healing, there is also forgiveness. Forgiveness with oneself, or forgiveness in different circumstances. How has that been for you?

Can you forgive yourself? Or can you not? You can forgive yourself. ¿Se puede perdonar o realmente no se puede? Perdonarse a uno mismo sí, porque uno es consciente de lo que uno mismo hace. Yo sé que si cometo algo ahorita o si hice algo mal, sé que lo puedo mejorar. Pero algo que sí tengo en cuenta es no perdonar a los demás, porque es algo que me quedó por lo de mi mamá, que cuando me cuenta o

escucho que dice que lo perdonó y volví pasó lo mismo entonces yo soy con eso ahí y también uno le dice que a las personas que pide perdón no creo que el perdón personal cree pero el perdón de los No, I think that personal forgiveness is what I believe, but the forgiveness of others is a different story. The one who has done the first, has done the second. You were telling us that the invitation you give to people who are living. The same is that when justice is done, there is peace, there is tranquility.

In your case, do you think justice has been done? At the moment, no. Because he was in prison... I mean, what I spoke about was at 15, it was two years ago. And he was in prison for a year, and he is free and I think that in itself justice

because they simply fulfilled with taking him to prison and that's it, the rest is slow, that's here, they change me from lawyers every now and then and it's very crazy, so let's see what happens. Well, your mom told us that you have a lawyer by trade, so in this chapter we also invite our community of criminal conduct, which is very faithful, which is very generous, because in several cases professionals have come to contribute to the cases, so we invite you, and that Natali and Camila can receive justice. According to what you experienced,

how is a...

A... is like a normal person, he just acts so normal. When I met him, he was the best grandfather in the world. And in front of people, he was a wonderful person. He was a common person. And as I was saying, he doesn't find the enemy, either on the street or in his own house. in is and there was never a day when a girl or a boy would not show up

that they would do this to someone, that I don't know what and he always gave his opinion, there was never a moment when he would stay silent and it was typical that they had to pay, that I don't know what, that those are some people who had to go to jail and I stay as thinking and always the people who say how strange because they do it if you understand me, they are giving an opinion that they should pay because they know that this is a crime and they know that they are hurting the person. And even if he is the one who is causing it, he is saying that,

giving the opinion that he has to pay, that's how he is doing it. He is doing it quietly.

It's like there are two people and not one?

Yes, it's kind of weird because he knows what he's doing. And he knows that if a girl on TV appears saying that her grandfather... He literally goes out to talk dressed as someone else, saying that this is a crime, that he should pay, even though he's doing it too.

But what I mean, Jami, is like... I'm being very nice to you right now, I laugh. And they close the door and I become another person. Did you see that with him? As if he changed his gaze, his body, his physique.

He practically changed in the absolute. Because, as I say, from the door to the outside, he was a very different person. And from the inside, from the door to the inside, he was totally different. Let's say, he was very aggressive.

When he grabbed me, he was aggressive. He is like a boss. He would talk to my grandmother very loudly. He was very, you are a woman, do it. He would keep going here, my grandmother would keep going there. He would talk to his own daughter, he would talk to her badly.

He would talk to his children badly in a bad way. He spoke to his children in a bad way. He was very bad. And outside it's different. Outside they don't show how they really are.

Have you ever thought about the moment when you get justice? Do you see it close or far away? ¿Ves cerca ese día, lo ves lejos? ¿Cuándo... ¿O la sensación que vas a tener cuando sepas que... ...se ha condenado?

Me va a sentir muy bien. O sea, me va a pesar, porque también lo quise mucho. Y... pero me va a sentir muy bien. No... pues yo sé que nos vamos a echar a más de uno enemigo. I know that we are going to throw more than one enemy, my grandmother, my uncles, who keep me with this man, but I'm going to feel good for me and for my mom, because I know how much my mom suffered, what I hear from my mom, I know how much she suffered, and

for what I went through and what made me me feel, and because of everything I saw, I think it's time to feel the relief that he is paying for it. And that he is not going to keep walking around, hurting who knows how many more people. And if he hurt more people, well, I don't know, he should stop. He still denies it.

He keeps denying it, he says no, no, no, no.

And...

I don't know if at some point he gets loose and starts saying no. It would be pretty brave to deny things in the face. no seria bastante valiente de que me diga las cosas en la cara y que lo niegue y no se ya negar algo así a la cara de la víctima es como no se tiene que ser muy I don't know, he has to be very... Disgusting. Very little man to deny something so big in someone's face.

Your grandmother knew.

What?

What he was doing to you. Do you think, I mean, in your heart is that she allows... Or if she saw him, she's wrong now?

Well, I feel like she does. But I don't know, you know? Because it's something very obvious. How he acted next to her, I mean, that he didn't realize.

Do you think your grandmother was scared of him?

Well, if he was a jerk with her, he would scream at her and he had to do what he said because he was not going to be afraid of her, he would shut up something that he knew a jerk to her, he would yell at her and do whatever he said because he knew that if he didn't shut her up, he would hurt her. And even though he knew, his family, his daughters, his sons, are still there. Knowing everything that happened, they are still there. I feel like they knew.

And no matter how much they realize what they told him, they took him to jail, and he's still in the process of all that. They're still there with him. I don't know, I start to think a lot, like... It's something obvious.

Of course, and also to see that... the support is on the other side, right?

Yes. I've always been firm with him, even more because sometimes I say, he was shameless. Because when he was put in jail, my aunt, the one I hit so much, she went to our house in Jamundí and told things, normal things, and after a while they got away.

Things like what?

I remember that she told my mom that my uncle, who is now in the United States, his son, he went down and put the violin in his hands. He asked him if he had done something to me. He said, did you do something to the girl? He screamed and he shook everything.

He said yes. He accepted my grandmother next to him and my uncles next to him. He put the Bible in their hands and said yes. I mean, what my aunt did. They were there and my uncle put the Bible in their hands

and he said yes. He accepted everything. And they continued with their lives as if nothing had happened? Yes, we hadn't filed a complaint yet. And the rumors continued. My aunt says she was already staying upstairs.

And that my other uncle was also staying upstairs. And that they didn't see him. Supposedly, they didn't come down. My grandmother lived with the common people. I think they took him after three days. My aunt went home. She even wrote me a letter.

I don't know where the letter is. But she wrote me a letter that she loved me a lot, that I don't know what. And she... I feel like, as part of my family, like a hypocrite. Because my mom also helped them. When they took him to jail, they took him to jail,

my mom helped them. She helped them a lot. And, like that, out of nowhere, they realized that I was in an emergency after trying to take the shit out of me and they uploaded a picture of the three of them together

it was a normal picture because I don't know, I feel like they don't care. I feel like they don't care. They care about what's happening and what their daughter told them.

A lot of people from conservative thinking will comment on why you expose her. Or why you made the decision to expose yourself. va a comentar por qué la exponen, o por qué tomase la decisión de exponerte, de contar esto públicamente, ¿qué le dirías a esas personas?

Primero, porque siento un alivio, o sea, me siento bien y porque lo quiero hacer. Y segundo, porque creo que tiene que pagar, pagar él, And second, because I think he has to pay. And besides, it's not just my mom and me who went through the same person, there's another relative who already filed a complaint.

Against the same person?

Against the same person. And who knows, without more people, without more relatives, personal. For being here, for wanting to tell your story, for being so brave, for clinging to life because you really have a lot to live, you are too young and the hell you lived, everything you went through, all that storm, look at what many victims have taught us a lot, because when they come here they tell us, no, if I could go back in time, maybe I would understand that what I lived was for a purpose, right? And today you show us the same again because you are wanting to help other children,

so that maybe they don't go through what you did. So, I want to thank you for the courage to be here. Thank you very much for listening to us.

It was a pleasure for us and we thank you for being here and for encouraging your mom.

Thank you.

And thank you all again for reaching the end of this episode. de la misma. Gracias. Y a todos ustedes, gracias nuevamente por llegar hasta el final de este episodio. Los invitamos a que se suscriban, a que nos sigan apoyando, a que nuestro contenido lo sigan compartiendo porque ya nos hemos dado cuenta de todas las lecciones que podemos seguir aprendiendo día a día para evitar que se repitan estos casos. Si tienen una historia que contarnos, los invitamos a que nos escriban a produccionconductadelictiva repeat these cases. If you have a story to tell us, we invite you to write to us at Si tienen una historia que contarnos, los invitamos a que nos escriban a produccionconductadelictiva repeat these cases. If you have a story to tell us, we invite you to write to us at

produccionconductadelictiva.com See you in a next episode.