‘A Bigger Labour Rebellion Will DESTROY Starmer’ | ‘He Can’t Be Our Prime Minister'

My friend, thank you so much indeed.I know we're going to talk in a bit about this fantastic article you've written in The Sun, but I obviously, from a man of your experience, the offices that you've held.Last night...So many of my viewers and listeners and so many of the media today questioning the validity of telling your MPs you will vote to save me from standing in front of a privileged committee despite the fact I've told you in the whole world there's no cover -up.They're all saying one thing.If there's no cover -up, why do you not refer yourself and put this aside so you can get on with dealing with the rubbish that's going on in this country, Sir Ian?

Well, let's be, first of all, very clear about this.The Prime Minister faced, despite the whip, a major rebellion last night.Some 50 people abstained and a number also voted against.And considering that they had gone into their evil arts and been whipping and bullying and threatening everybody, that they had to vote on what normally is an unwhipped motion.If somebody is being put forward to go to the Privileges Committee, it's meant to be for parliamentarians to exercise their judgment without government privilege.

Can I ask you quickly, when it happened to Boris Johnson, was the Tory party whipped?

No, and in fact, there was no vote in the end because it was agreed that he should go through to the privileges committee.You know, it's a very simple fact of life.The government then at the time, they may not have been happy about it, but they were told essentially, your backbenchers think this ought to happen.And they did, they let it through.This one, this is very typical about Labour, they were moaning and attacking us at that stage.But now when the boot's on the other foot, they literally brutally went after every single MP.

Now, I happen to think that MPs should have the courage when necessary to rebel when you think the moment is right.But many of them were really pushed hard, and I know and I talked to many of them behind the scenes.That notwithstanding, over 50 of them did not vote to support the government.And now the government's saying, well, look, many of them were let off.No, because if you look at the following vote, the next vote on something completely different, they went back up to 355 votes, which meant they were in the House of Commons when they abstained, which means they came back to the House of Commons to not vote for the Prime Minister.So that was a rebellion.

So it's the biggest rebellion they've had.And I have to tell you, it means that Starmer really is now, I think, there is to do.

Can I ask you, yesterday we saw the other Foreign Office manager in Sir Philip Barton who left his post, replaced by Ollie Robbins.Ollie Robbins last week saying, you know, I was just told get this done irrespective.I think Barton yesterday said that there seemed to be, Number 10 was uninterested in the vetting process.They wanted this done.Then we saw McSweeney.I don't know if you heard, did you read Quentin Lett's description of McSweeney?

It was extraordinary.

this whole thing was obviously stitched up before he even went in there.

But there was no gravitas and people aren't buying it.My question to you is...I've always been so.Let me read this to you, Quentin.You'll love this, Quentin.

Labour's chief poisoner proved an underwhelming tiddler, a shaking bag of nerves in a suit surely from M &S school wear range.

Which I thought was fantastic.I'm afraid that's what politics now too often has come to, is those behind the politicians advise like mad and yet they've never been through life.I always think that the best advice you get is from people people that have lived a hard, tough life and know what it's like to be down, know what it's like to be up, know what it's like to take tough decisions.You know, my father fought all the way through the war, five gallantry medals.His advice was the advice I almost always went to when I wasn't sure, because the guy had been in combatfive years and got through the other end.

I mean that sort of advice is proper advice, not some bloke that's never never taken a risk, never taken a big decision, never fought anybody for any particular reason.I mean I'm afraid the whole place is filled with minnows these days.

I just wanted to get more from you on the three -line whip thing last night.Does that in your mind, although you're on the opposition bench, does that instigation of the three -line whip cause resentment amongst the bank edgers and also along with that question, does that mean that he will ultimately face a bigger rebellion down the line?

Yeah, I think two things.First of all, there's no question that the backbenchers, and we talk to each other.I know many of the Labour MPs.I get on all right with them.We work together over amendments and things like that.But I know what Whip's office does when things are desperate.

They employ all the arts, dark arts they can, the threats, the I know what you've been up to over here, and then the leaning on them.If you don't do this, I swear to God you won't be re -selected for the next election.You know, all this sort of stuff goes on.It's what's been going on since time immemorial the key thing though when I've rebelled over Maastricht for example many years ago within about I think a year Well, actually it was the first vote that I ever faced I rebelled on But when you really believe that something is wrong, you have to stand by your belief and your character You were sent there for your judgment not to be just a person as truck trails through the lobbies for the for other reasons Of course, you're there to support the manifesto stuff, but this is not manifesto manifesto stuff this is about judgment of a prime minister who frankly I have to say I think you know is the nowhere man I somebody said to me the old rhyme the other day you know the other day upon the stair I met a man that was not there he was not there again today oh II wish he'd go away.Starmer.

Do you think he will be gone before the end of the year?

It's difficult to say because Labour has a very peculiar system to try and get rid of their leaders and their Prime Ministers.For the Conservative Party, frankly, we make it far too easy.Yes, I was going to say.I mean, you know, we change, right, we change underwear really, but the main problem, which is not very good, it's destabilising, but for Labour, They have to have this huge number of MPs that publicly, I think it's about 80, 81, have to come out publicly and support a person.So somebody has to put themselves up.And I think, if I'm not wrong, then the major vote would have to take place sometime around the conference or the conference itself, any final vote.

It's very difficult, which is why they've never got rid of a single leader or a prime minister since the Second World War.

Well, there is a lot of rumour today that Starmer, I know we've had phase 23 We were playing a clip earlier of Phase 2 last September, new staff being brought in, big announcement, that was Mandelstam, so Phase 2's a disaster.Anyway, there is a rumour that there will be a reshuffle in about a week, and stories this morning, Ian, that Starmer's privately offered Angela Rayner a return to Cabinet, despite the fact that Angela Rayner hasn't paid her stamp duty, the one who said Boris was right to resign to uphold ministerial standards.It's very interesting.You must be looking forward to Angela Rayner's return because the papers will say she's either going to be given a plum cabinet job or will be replacing the man in number 10.

Yeah this is a woman that by and large had to step away and leave because she had major tax problems with the inland revenue and I think this is also what's meant that she's not been able to get back.So if you look at the people who've had to go from the cabinet you can see quite carefully there's a whole series of misdemeanorsThey're not politically challenging to the Prime Minister, but they either seem to have hidden a bunch of telephones and made illegal claims or they've got tax problems, etc.

That's not my favourite.Come on, the corruption minister being fired because she's been charged with corruption in Bangladesh has to be the best one.Tulip Sadiq.

Wow.And then people who are responsible for making sure people get housing also then end up making people homeless.I mean, all these sort of things are all about, you know, do what I say, not what I do.And I think Marina was in the same boat.So I don't really know.But if the prime minister has to bring her back, it shows you what an appalling state own leadership is in, if the people that he really felt were challenging him the whole time had to be brought in because he's so weak.

Final question on Starmer before we move to your wonderful article today.You don't have to answer this, you might, you might not.Do you think he lied and misled Parliament?

There's no question in my book that he did mislead Parliament, whether he did it knowingly, deliberately, with intention, or whether he did it because he assumed that what he was saying was correct, is the bit that the vote was about yesterday.And my view is that Parliament was misled about all of this.It's the same view for most of the people in the opposition yesterday evening.And, you know, Boris Johnson was brought to the Privileges Committee.I don't understand what their fear is over the Privileges Committee, because What are you against if you believe that you did it all right?It shouldn't really matter if you go to the privilege committee because they'll look at it and if they see that then they'll just clear you.

It's this fear that they'll uncover what really happened.

This is fantastic, your article, page 10 today in the Sun.Six million workers.This will absolutely resonate with you, Alarm Clock Brits.Six million workers earn less than many jobless claimants.That is a scandal that fails everyone who pays taxes.He might not be your favourite.

person, but Nigel Farage said something the other day that really I think is relevant to this.He said that the nation's biggest societal divide right now is not based on money, race or religion, but those that work.and that those that don't work.And whenever we get into this debate, Ian, people will say, oh, you're having a go.No, I'm not.But it is absolutely outrageous, as you highlight today, that now you can choose not to work.

And there are feckless, lazy people who are better off than those who get up like alarm clock Brits and go and earn a crust.Disgusting in anybody's book.

The problem is that Covid hit us like a steam train, because before that, when I left, I resigned.But what we had was the lowest number of workless households since records began.We had millions going back into work.And the reality was that the result was the money that we spent on welfare had fallen quite significantly.Now, what happened is Covid meant that the government had to spend money ridiculously.But they should have pulled it back almost immediately, and we should have got this thing back up and running after COVID.

The problem has been, therefore, that two things have happened, which I think is the major problem.The problem you've pointed out here, which is because now of COVID, people are claiming on sickness benefit at a level and at a rate for things that they weren't in such great numbers before.Mostly on this is the big threat is mental health problems.And the two biggest issues are probably the biggest claims at the moment on this are depression and anxiety.And the point that I make in the article is that the health service itself says that the major cure to depression is work, and the same for anxiety.If you sit at home because you're supposedly depressed, then you'll just get worse.

So what you need to do is get to work.Work is the key to a functional life.And that's why when universal credit is brought in for the first time ever we can see whole households.Now we can only ever see individuals before.Now we know what the earnings in a household are.So we really need to get off the households where nobody is earning.

outside of the benefit system and that's the area the government's got to go on to and at the point that I'm making in this article which is even Tony Blair has now come out and said this government has got to change the welfare problem because they will not be able to afford all the other key things and British people will be taxed, taxed, taxed and taxed again and you can see what's happening to the economy about it.

I mean I'm old -fashioned and I've said this every single day.I think it says an awful lot about this country and the people in it that we are and have always been prepared to do our bit for people who are less fortunate and I'm more than happy, more than happy to pay my taxes.But unless we in a civilised way have a debate written, so eloquently by you today, where we say quite simply this, there are people gaming the system who are then taking money away from other genuine claimants.It was never when I left school in, it was work or college.Now it's work or college or sign on.It was not meant to be better than grafting.

It's such a wrong message, I think.I was going to ask you in sort of alongside that because of the benefits argument.We read today that a massive 2 .2 million extra migrants will arrive in the UK in the next eight years.That means the UK's population will peak more than 40 years earlier than previously thought, hitting a high of 72 .5 million in 2054.ONS data also reveals that deaths will outnumber births for the first time this year.The problem with immigration, that is also having a profoundly negative effect on the welfare benefits bill, isn't it?

Oh yeah, there's no question.It's not all migrants.but illegal migrants, migrants themselves, migration generally, of course, has put major pressure on the welfare system because once they're here, and if they're given permission to stay, then they have access to the welfare system.In fact, far too many get access even before any of their cases are cleared.The real problem we've got though is, and the birth rate for British citizens has been falling, and that needs to go back up if we're to get the whole thing restabilised.But the key problem is that if we keep on bringing in, you know, a city the size of Leicester or whatever it is every year, then we're going to have a problem because all the systems then expand to help all of those people many of who come in with illnesses and sicknesses themselves uh you know some of the rise...

Do you think we've become a soft touch?Genuinely?

Well yeah there's no question that's that's what's become the case because First of all, on the welfare system, we didn't reverse the Covid checks.For example, I kept telling the government at the time, it was my government, I said, for God's sake, get back to face -to -face checks.Do not allow people just to sit there and do it online.The key thing is that we have these advisors.They can see when they sit down with somebody whether they're really doing what they do.I had a thing called the claimant commitment, which is really a kind of contract where I had on one side what the claimant needed to do, that they had to look for work, take work, take any job that is given to them, not to make themselves willfully unemployed, otherwise they would lose their benefit, and what the government would do, which is to help them seek work and to support them.

That was a commitment.They signed that.that'smajor effect on people's failure to turn up, failure to make the position clear to them as to what they've actually earned.All of that process allows us to do this.And now that sickness benefit is universal credit, we can do it.

We can see people over their depression and their anxiety claims and get them back into work to say, look, the best process for you is to be back in work with some support, not to pay them the benefit, but to use some of that money to be able to bring advisors and support for them to get into work.And that's the key bit.Work is a health treatment for those suffering with depression, anxiety and even to a degree ADHD.

Could not agree more.Listen, it's always an absolute pleasure to have you on.Thank you, sir.We had a few technical problems, but thank you, Sir Ian Duncan Smith.