Ann Widdecombe Murder: Suspect Drove 300 Miles | Jeremy Vine

And welcome to the show, Monday the 13th of July.Since we last spoke on Friday, we've heard that Anne Whitacombe, our friend, our guest in the studio on more than 100 occasions, was murdered.And we've had the weekend to think about this horrifying news.It was bad enough knowing that we would never see her face again, never hear her voice again, that voice booming stuff and nonsense every time she heard something she disagreed with.But to know that her life was taken in an act of violence is almost too much.And we are thinking of all her family, her friends, as this horrible, horrible series of events plays out.

Somebody wrote at the weekend, you've taken her death.You cannot take her life.So we hope over time, we remember the Anne.we knew so well and loved.And I can tell you that one of the people she loved to be on with, in fact, she would always choose this person, was you.She always wanted to debate with you.

That's very kind.And I was told that she often would say, is Henry going to be on?And she would say to me, because you you come with facts, you have principle, and I can always have a civilized conversation with you.And the feeling was mutual.I mean, the first time I met her was, I think she was still an MP, and we were backstage in the green room of Sky News.And to me, she was still the caricature of Doris Karloff.

She still had the very dark hair.And I sort of ignored her, and she sort of ignored me. I'm not sure what she thought.But many years later,post Strictly Come Dancing, you know, she was now this national treasure.Maybe she'd mellowed a little bit.I know it didn't often come that way, come across that way here on this stage.

But we'd have these wonderful chats in the green room.She would ask me about my parents.And the great thing was she would listen.You know, she was supported by a Catholic faith, and I was raised a Catholic, I wasn't practicing the way she was, but she would talk to me about her travels, her visits to a leper colony in Mauritania to do good works.And she would talk about her friendships, and she was so active, because people have sometimes said, oh, she was a lonely old woman who'd never married.No! couldn't be any further from the truth.

She had a very, very full life, would be out there, very dynamic.The Jamaicans have this term, it's called talawa.They say, we little, but we talawa, we're small, but we're mighty.And that was her, only five feet, five feet one tall, but this booming life force is what she embodied.

The Shakespeare line isn't there, Claire, she may be little, but she is fierce.

Fierce, absolutely.And diminutive in stature almost but I think at the time when you first met her, Henry, at the time when she was an MP, she was shackled almost to the norm of being a woman, a feisty woman that really should have gone to the Lords in my view as well but she didn't and she famously said because David Cameron didn't like her.because she spoke the truth.She was a woman who was incredibly principled.She was a woman whose faith was first and foremost, the first thing in her life was her faith.And then it was her family, and then it would be her work.

And her faith then channeled her moral compass and had the basis of what her beliefs were.Now, we will hear from people, no doubt, on your show today, Jeremy, who will wax lyrical about perhaps falling out over.some of her most Catholic views.But regardless of those views, it still did not hinder her to seeing the person, to seeing past what that person might have lived their life like, past what that person might have said or done, but she looked always to the soul and the crux and the justification of a human being.

Now, police investigating her death say they are not looking for anyone else as they question a 28 -year -old.Yesterday, officers gave this update.

Shortly after 9pm on Saturday the 11th of July, a 28 -year -old white British man was arrested at an address in Rotherham, South Yorkshire, on suspicion of the murder of Miss Whittacombe.We were supported by officers from Counter -Terrorism Police North East, and South Yorkshire police who carried out the arrest on behalf of Devon and Cornwall.At this point, there is still no information to suggest that this is a terrorism related incident.And at this point, we are not looking for anyone else in connection with this murder.We retain primacy of this investigation and detectives remain open minded about the potential motive.At this stage, there is nothing to suggest that it was politically motivated.

Right.Well, the Sun's front page today is quite astonishing.So have a look at this.They say the suspect was caught on camera in Rotherham, which would involve a five -hour drive down to Anne's house from Rotherham to Hayter.I was looking at it earlier.They say that he's getting into his car.

They haven't named the person.And he has some sort of wooden stick in his pocket here, spotted with wooden stick before drive to Anne's house.XMP's home.That, they say, is the man, the second arrested person.As the police have said, they arrested one person.It was the wrong person.

He was 26.This guy is 28.We don't know the name.But the mail has followed up.This was a Sun exclusive, that photo.And their headline reflects what we just saw.

Loner left his house with a pole on day of Whittaker murder.The Times then, again following the Sun, Whittakam killer drove 300 miles with weapon.So we have quite a lot there.We can't really get into any sort of discussion about the specifics because that man is a suspect who may be charged.Very significant the police say they're not talking to anyone else or looking for anyone else at the moment.So...

You do wonder how just how much the police are sharing with these newspapers for them to have this level of detail.Extraordinary.Yeah, really detailed stuff about the suspect, his background, family, relations, etc.So you do wonder where that's coming from.

And you're left with the thought, and we've just parked this thought, that for some reason a person would drive all the way from Rotherham to Hayter near Newton Abbot in Devon and then attack and kill Anne.We need to know the motivation if that person did that.Why?Why?Someone who knew Anne well, worked closely with her and counted her as a close friend is the broadcaster and author Ian Dale.Every twist of this is awful, Ian.

It really is.And as you say, it's impossible to compute why on earth somebody would drive that distance to do what they did, assuming this is the perpetrator, which we don't actually know yet.There has to have been a motive.I mean, you don't do, I can't imagine anyone driving 300 miles to randomly, I mean, do a burglary.And because I think one of the theories was, well, she disturbed a burglar.Well, that just doesn't compute here, does it?

I mean, if you wanted to do it, you'd probably do that somewhere near your home.So anyway, it's pointless speculating.

repeated a quote I'd heard, you've taken her death, you can't take her life.That's a beautiful quote, isn't it?

Yes.And that is why I'm doing interviews like this, frankly, because I have been appalled at the way that she's been introduced by some people who should know better.Ever since the death was announced on Friday.I think you and I would both agree that we would rather mourn in private.But it's important that we don't let the haters try and reduce her reputation and try and make out she was something that she was not.She was a wonderful woman.

She was a conviction, a woman of conviction.As Tony Benn used to put it, she was a signpost, not a weathervane.And of course, if you have very transient views, of course, people are going to get upset.But the idea that just because you disagree with someone vehemently, and believe me, I did on many issues, and I had lots of up and downers with Anne, the idea that just because you disagree with someone's politics, you can't be friendly with them, I mean, it's just outrageous.And it's an indication of where our public discourse has got to.

Yeah, and I won't name the person, but one quite prominent commentator said, oh, she was an old maid and a spinster and all.I just thought, why?That gets into areas you should never be saying after a person's been murdered.

Well, I don't know why you're reluctant to name them.I will.It was Adam Bolton, a friend of mine, somebody I really respect as a political journalist.but he just was tone deaf in that interview.I suppose, look, we've all done it where we've said things in retrospect were maybe misjudged, but he also was promulgating the lie that she wanted to shackle women prisoners in childbirth, sorry, in labour.I mean, it never happened.

complete fiction.She sued the Daily Express over it when they made that allegation.So these things have to be put right.

I think it's important to say to both of you, Ian, good to see you, and Jeremy, that that particular person, Adam Boulton, who's a colleague of mine on Times Radio as well, has apologised.He's made a big long statement and he knows he got it wrong.He has apologised.

It's a sort of if you're offended, I'm sorry type of apology, I thought, but there we go.

We're all at 60s and 70s, Ian, as you can tell here, and we've got a murder that is being investigated, so we can't talk about that.I suppose the thing we're all dreading on a political level is that this is a political crime and that we then have to put security guards at the driveway of every politician, even the ones who have retired.I mean, is that what we're looking at now, do you think?

No, we're not.I do think that senior politicians.like the leader of the opposition, like the leaders of other political parties, should have more security.There's no doubt about that.But you know as well as I do, Jeremy, that if either you or I had said to Anne, well we think that you should have this kind of security, that kind of security, she would have said stuff and nonsense.Apparently one of her friends in Devon said that you really ought to have an electronic gate and she just utterly refused to.

Can I just say one more thing in that I think you know, but she loved your programme.She loved coming on it.She loved your viewers, and she loved you.You were part of her family.She really, really spoke very highly of you, and I know you went out of your way to be kind to her.

Well, that's too much to hear that today.Thank you very much, Ian.Thank you so much.We are involved here because on the day of her death, this office was in touch with her by chance.So I'll show you some messages here.We've got these are essentially public interest, because this is the time of the exchange between the producer in our office with Anne.

And so I have sadly have to say they are relevant in the police investigation.So this is the researchers talking on behalf of Matt Allwright's show.And they're saying, I'll send it to you now, asking for an email.Anne says it's the usual one.Just sent to this address.Let me know if you've got it.

That's the researcher.12 .19, Anne says, received.Panic over.OK, now, as far as we know, that's the last message she ever sent and the last thing she ever said.We don't know that for sure.But to us, the researcher says, amazing.

Let me know if there's any issues.That's 12 .19.Look at the times here, 12 .48.The researcher's thinking, oh, she's a little bit late getting on the Zoom.That's very unusual.Hi, Anne, could you join the Zoom now, please?

The researcher calls 1253, no answer.That's really unusual for Anne.Hi, Anne, is everything OK?1255, 1305, 1314, more voice calls.So the last, the very last thing we had from her was received panic over classic Anne message.And of course, that's now very relevant to the police inquiry because it's

times the moment she went offline.And we have to fear that sometime between 1219 and 1248, she was murdered.After the break, we'll be joined by Richard Tice, Deputy Leader of Reform UK, to discuss Anne Widdicombe's life, legacy, and the latest developments.And we'll be back shortly.Before the break, we asked which of these books did Anne Whittaker publish in 2005, An Act of Peace, Atonement, or The Constant Gardener?The answer is An Act of Peace.

Welcome back, we're live on five with Henry and Claire.Later, can England win the World Cup?Seems almost a trivial question compared to the other things we're discussing.Let's speak to Richard Tice, Deputy Leader of Reform UK.We spoke on Friday.We'd only knew about Anne's death at that point, but of course, we now know much more.

Richard, your thoughts?

So Jeremy, yes, I took a call from the Chief Constable early Friday afternoon after we'd spoken in the morning and that was a devastating phone call to confirm they were holding a press conference and in a sense everything then has cascaded ever since.We've learnt of the horrors of Anne's death, the investigation into possible murder and everything Beyond yesterday, I went down with other Reform colleagues to the hotel just by Anne's home.We held a vigil there with local members and villagers, which was incredibly moving.I have to say that I struggled to hold it together as I said some words about the incredible lifethat Anne has lived.I mean, she was a true colossus, a legend in British public life across so many different areas of it.

And as Ian Dale quite rightly said, she was a very dear friend of what I'm going to call you the extended Jeremy Vine family.It was a critical part of her monthly diary.her appearances on your show, but you look at her career, Jeremy, and it was not just an incredibly long political career, but her media career was as big, some might say even bigger.When you look at what she covered in that, there's a picture of me with her, and that was a classic Anne, determined, diligent, focused.There was very little time for sort of passing the time of day.And as I said yesterday with Dear Anne, you know, when she rang or sent you a message, you know, I would always take the call standing up on the basis that you had to be on your toes.

You sort of knew even if it was friendly advice, it would be incoming.And you couldn't be slouching around just dreaming of the day.No, no, Anne Whitacombe was calling.Sharpen up.And that was Anne.And that was part of who she was, her conviction, her passion, her energy, she would be quite happy to go the length and breadth of the country to give a message to her fans, her supporters, and we can all learn from that.

I certainly do.And regardless of one's political persuasions, it's sort of not relevant.I did love the, I saw a Graham Norton clip with her back, I think 15 years ago, where she said,to Graham, life's not a dress rehearsal, you get one shot at it.So grasp every opportunity, take that opportunity and go for it.And it was a sort of, it reminded me of my late mother, who also was a great Ann Widdicombe fan.

And that was her sort of modus operandi in life.So I think those are the positives that we try and take out of such shock, such grief, and everything that flows from it.

There was a comment from Nigel Farage in Devon when he went to lay flowers that he believed this was premeditated murder.And then a few people said, well, you can't be sure and you shouldn't be saying that.What do you say to that?

I think we've just got to the police hopefully will give us daily updates.That's that's what I hope they could do, because we live in such a fast moving world, information flying around all over the place.And look, there's just a lot of emotion, a lot of shock.And let's see what the police are able to inform us, hopefully later today, just so that we can have as much information as possible.I think that's so important in this fast -moving world that we all live in.And yeah, look, it's just very, very difficult, very difficult.

But the idea that someone may have driven 300 miles to do something to Anne, to drive 300 miles back, the whole thing is just completely incomprehensible.

Thank you so much Richard Tice for a lovely tribute to Anne.A police cordon remains in place at the house which is called Widdicombe's Rest.She wasn't hiding where she lived.That was the name that Anne gave her Dartmoor home to mark her retirement.The cordon has since beenextended as officers continue their investigation.

Catherine Nash is at the scene for us.So, Catherine, this has come as a huge shock to the village.

Morning, Jeremy.Yes, I think you've summed it up there perfectly.A huge shock to the village.I mean, I'm in Haytor, the village where Anne Widdicombe lived for the past 18 years and is now, of course, at the very centre of that police investigation.You might be able to see the cameras just behind me.Well, just beyond that, there is a police cordon that, as you said, was extended at the weekend whilst the investigation into her death continues.

Now, you asked me about the community.Well, Haytor is a really small village.There aren't many houses.here.It's a close -knit community.I spoke to a lady about 20 minutes ago who lives not far from here and she said that this is a community in shock.

It's been extremely saddened by what's happened and is still trying to wrap its head around the events of the last few days.She also told me that These villages are places where people feel safe and they don't lock their doors at night.They feel that safe.And that she said, you know, in the future, that may be something that she has to start thinking about.And we also saw somebody this morning carrying a bunch of flowers.So tributes are pouring in for Anne Widdicombe from people who knew her personally and people who've travelled from further afield to pay their respects.

There must be a lot of police activity in the village.

Yes, I mean, the village is pretty locked off, Jeremy.I entered from one end and couldn't get through because of a police cordon.So I've come around the other way and there obviously is a police cordon there as well.Since I've been standing here, sort of for the last 20 minutes or so, I've counted about three police cars coming in and out.And as I've said, this is a really small village.So for this amount of police officers, police car forensics, as well as news teams like ours to disperse,

a small place is a lot for people to deal with whilst obviously still trying to come to terms with exactly what's happened here.

Thank you very much Catherine, thank you.I wanted to share some of the tributes and messages you've posted online.Julia said on Instagram, Anne was so unapologetically herself, what a tragic loss.I loved listening to her.Katja added she was a huge character who was unafraid to be herself, a fierce and smart woman at a time when politics was very much a man's world.Dave on Facebook said they say Brian Clough was the greatest manager England never had.

Maybe Anne was the greatest Prime Minister Britain ever had.She certainly wouldn't agree with that for a second.I was thinking, Clare, I thought, OK, over the weekend, who do we have who's like Anne?There is no one to come on the show and be like it.There's no one.

Because people are frightened, you know, to say with the truth and the clarity that Anne Widdicombe had.I mean, I said earlier, just previously, I think when she left the Conservative Party, when she didn't become, when she wasn't an MP anymore, the shackles were off.And that's when her media career really took off.And that's when we saw the brilliance of the personality, the intelligence of the Oxford and Birmingham graduate, the woman who transcended class, sex, a lot of things, at a time when a lot of women, especially, didn't go to university.She did it all, and then some, and continued to do more and more, and pushed herself outside her comfort zones.And she lived, as Richard Tye said on that interview, that's now resurfaced from the Graham Norton Show, she lived that one life that she had, and she grasped into...

Look at this one in the middle, this is her.Why she didn't want sea eagles in her part of Devon?Because she said her cat, Aloysius,might be attacked by an eagle.And so of course I say, you know, can we put in a massive eagle and you have a, of course I'll do that, you know, what are we doing?Oh dear.

I'll tell you, I was struck by something that Richard Tice said, that when a phone call was incoming from Anne, he would take it standing.And it reminds me of my approach to the programme, to the Jeremy Vine TV show, when I knew I was on with Anne.I knew I would have to do my homework.I knew she had this forensic brain, didn't need the notes, could speak extempore, would have all the Latin, bit of French, a bit of German, and certainly lots of biblical quotes.So I knew that if I wanted to change Anne's mind, I would have to come armed with my Bible, with my Luke, my Matthew.

She did love Latin, and she loved the Latin mass.

That's right.

I was with my mum at the weekend, who's 87, and I thought that I can't believe that Anne was 10 years younger than my mum, but reminded me of my grandmother.And I wonder whether she was a bit like Jacob Rees -Mogg in the sense of she had found a certain character which just really suited her.And she actually found it probably in her 30s.

But I don't think she became a caricature.

No, because I think she was truthful.Yes, exactly.And that's the great thing that some of the most powerful people, they're like this 24 -7.She's probably not like that when she's home alone.Yes.I must say, my first thought when this whole horror came out was, The best outcome in the circumstances would be it was a burglary, it wasn't targeted at Anne, and she simply gave the burglar what for.

And then he flipped and, you know...That was one of the original theories.Yeah, and now we're dealing with a different, a whole different thing.The idea someone drives, if they drive 400 miles to kill her, it's just unthinkable.After the break, a change of subject.Can England win the World Cup?

They, can we say we?They are through to the semifinals after a dramaticwin over Norway on Saturday, but an even bigger test awaits on Wednesday.Can they do it?We'd love to hear what you think.Do call us 0207 862 2222.

See you shortly.