Ben Shapiro vs. Tucker Carlson — Who Will Win? Krystal Ball on ‘MAGA Podcast Wars’, AIPAC, and Iran

There are these MAGA podcast wars going on.

We deserve this, honestly, Matty.

We deserve this.

Ben Shapiro is the founder, editor-in-chief, whatever you want to call it, emeritus of Daily Wire. Michael Knowles is technically his employee. Right. And Michael knows that, I'm not going to say what you want me to say,

because I'm scared.

Well, because Mark Levin got accused of having a micro-penis, Please tell them I don't. The relationship between the left and Tucker is very complicated because you see the interview with Ted Cruz and you're like, thank you. Of course, many of his views are disgusting and abhorrent.

Obviously, this war would not happen without Benjamin Netanyahu. But Trump is also a key player. Are you surprised with how anti-war and anti-Israeli-American public opinion

has become?

Shocking. I mean, it's shocking. The Democratic base is not putting up with this crap anymore. They're disgusted with Chuck Schumer. They're disgusted with Democratic leadership. AIPAC did not want their name on the ads. They know they are completely toxic.

I'm Mehdi Hassan.

And I'm Krystal Wall.

And we're not kidding, the flagship Zotero podcast and an excellent guest today. Krystal, how are you? I'm Mehdi Hassan. And I'm Crystal Wall. And we're not kidding, the flagship Zotero podcast, and an excellent guest today. Crystal, how are you? I'm doing well. It's good to see you.

Crystal doesn't need any introduction,

because all of you know her as a hugely popular commentator, journalist, co-host of the insanely popular Breaking Point YouTube show, which has over 1.9 million subscribers. Last time we checked, we're trying to catch you.

We're trying.

We're flirting with 2 million here, guys.

No big deal.

We're behind you, but you're a really good pace setter. You set good examples. And you guys just won an iHeart podcast award for best political podcast. Congratulations.

Yeah, thank you. We had totally written that off. Had zero expectation of winning. You know, originally we thought it was like a fan vote thing. So we're telling our audience like, oh, you know, vote for us. And they were like, we literally can't. We went to the website and we tried. So when we realized it would be just like chosen by whoever, we didn't think we had any shots. So it was kind of cool. It's like the first award that we won as a show. So.

Great. Much deserved recognition.

Thank you. viewers, what is the premise of breaking point? That is actually a really great question. The premise of breaking points is news, but from a populist left and populist right perspective, an honest perspective, but with people who have different views that don't always align. There are some places where we do align. So for example, with regard to the Iran war, you know, Sagar, myself, Emily,

Ryan, all of us are very adamantly to the Iran war, you know, Sagar, myself, Emily, Ryan, all of us are very adamantly opposed. And we, you know, we wear our own political views very clearly, but we also very committed to the truth, to breaking through, you know, typical media propaganda, et cetera.

So that's the idea.

Propaganda is a good word for right now. Funnily enough, I was thinking about this when I was looking at your career preparing for the show today. It's like both of us, here we are, ex-MSNBC hosts living at large in independent media world.

MSNOW refugees.

MSNOW, well it wasn't MSNOW, thankfully, when we were there, ridiculous name.

I mean, it's, you know, I don't know how you feel about it,

but for me, best thing that ever happened to me,

to be honest with you.

Best thing that ever happened, imagine, no, imagine being, not being able to do what we do now in this moment in our history with what's happening at home and abroad without our platforms.

And the limitations just inherent to the format also, just these like, you know, a little short, okay, you get five minutes, you get seven minutes, you got to go to break, wrap, wrap, wrap, like, just those limitations of the format before you even get into the corporate structure and all the pressures that come from that. I mean, it's just, it really is not adequate to be able to cover the moment that we're living in. So yeah, every day, I'm grateful that they cancelled me, even though at the time I was very upset, I was deeply depressed, etc. It was a blow. But now I think, thank God. Thank you very much. And it's funny. I mean, I get a little bit of pleasure

out of seeing some of the people who are still there trying to do what we do, you know, like launching their podcast and trying to carve out their separate lane.

100% that they're going down that road. Interestingly, the former head of MSNBC, my former boss, a cable channel, to now seeing where the future is and being a head of a YouTube company, which I think is fascinating. It's funny, you know, the timings you mentioned.

You know, I like to do tough interviews, as you know. I love to kind of hold people to account and kind of not move on and repeat the questions. Hard to do that when you've got producers saying, got to go to a break, got to go to a break. I remember when I interviewed Congressman Dan Crenshaw, the one Republican congressman I got to come on my show, and we went for like half an hour without a break on MS,

which was unheard of, and I'd got permission beforehand to say, we need to drop ad breaks. I can't be stopping for an ad break in the middle of like some tense back and forth. you've used the format really well. I do wanna play a clip. I wanna start off with a really good clip. My favorite Breaking Points clip is you versus Senator Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan.

Let's play the clip and then we're gonna talk about this.

But you're a United States Senator. Like you have, you're not the president, but you have power. So what are you going to do? Because so far what we've seen, I mean, you voted for some of the aid that's been used to massacre children and innocents.

You know, you have backed Israel, as far as I can tell, you know, from your voting record at almost every turn. Are you going to join Senator Angus King, Senator Bernie Sanders in saying no more aid to this country that is committing war crimes against innocent civilians? I think the first thing, if you're asking about what to do with power, and I would offer

that right now Democrats own nothing in Washington. So the- Don't play powerless with me. You're a United States Senator. I understand, but- There are things you can do.

Does it eat you up? Does it eat you up? Do you think, what more could I do? Do you regret any of your votes? I will tell you what I was working on this morning.

That is a United States Senator and former CIA person being held to account by crystal ball. When I first saw that clip, two things. One is I thought to myself, has any Senator, there are 100 members of the Senate, 50 Democrats, roughly give or take, have any of them ever been asked a question about funding, quote, massacres, as you put it quite bluntly to her? No is the answer. What an indictment of our mainstream media. And I think I texted you after that event saying, number one,

amazing interview. I was in awe of that interview. And number two, how did you get her to come on the show and answer those questions?

I'm still asking myself this question because we didn't reach out to her.

She reached out to us. Which is itself quite interesting, a reflection on the state of independent media.

Well, and I actually asked her that question in the interview. I was like, why are you here? Because it was confusing to me. And in my preparation for that interview and what I tried to do as I'm preparing for something that I know will be difficult or

contentious is I really try to think about what is the heart of the thing that is the is the contention here? Like what are the things people are going to want to know? What are they going to be asking themselves? And one of the questions was that one, like why are you here when you know that where we are is very different from where what's the answer to that question? Why was she there? I think that what happened, this is basically what she told us, is that she realized I need to go on podcast. Yes, as many Democrats have since the Kamala catastrophe. Exactly,

like this is the thing now, I need to do podcasts. And so her staff, a lot of staff on Capitol Hill watch our show, I'm sure they watch your show too, and are fans of the show, and so they probably came to her with like breaking points. And now they're fired. And, yeah, don't... Yeah. I'm sorry to those staffers. My apologies. But, um, I think they probably presented it to her as, like, it's bipartisan. And so she's thinking, like,

-"Oh, Morning Joe, like, centrist-y." -"There'll be cover.

But Saga didn't give her cover."

No, Saga gave her no cover. I think, I don't know if she didn't watch the show. I don't know if she wasn't aware of our perspective. I actually think she was aware coming in that it would be a tough interview for her, but she has a lot of confidence in her own ability.

She's very ambitious. To spin things. I mean, I respect her for coming on the show. I absolutely do too. I think I said that at the time on social media that a lot of senators wouldn't come anywhere near it, even if their staff begged them to do a podcast, the vast majority don't do podcasts. We often forget, we see the Roe Connors of this world and even the Gavin Newsom's doing a lot of media.

And we forget that that's an aberration. Most Democrats, the vast majority of House and Senate Democrats just keep their heads down.

They don't go anywhere. We've asked Gavin many times to go on our show.

I've been asking Gavin Newsom to do his show. Gavin's done a lot of shows. If you're watching Gavin Newsom, we all would love to have a chat. We know you're the front runner and we would like to have a chat. Do you think podcasts are going to play a massive role in 28? Everyone talked about 2024 being the podcast election. It was for the GOP.

I don't think it was for the Call Her Daddy. That's it. Apparently they built a set for with a massive amount of money. I just read about that recently. But Trump did do a bunch of crazy far-right podcasts and comedy podcasts. A lot of those podcasts are now having buyer's remorse, but he did do that. 28 is going to be that on steroids, do you think?

I think so, because I think podcasts, I mean, this is just mainstream now, right? This is not the edge of media. It's not some fringe thing. As you say, everyone watches it. Slaffers, people in government. Yes, absolutely. And every age group and every demographic and every class. I mean, everything. And especially, I think part of what's happened on the Democratic side and why you, you know, your departure from MS now at this point, came at the perfect moment, is that there's also been a real loss of faith in a lot of liberal institutions. So Republicans have long had antipathy towards the quote unquote mainstream

media. But Democrats backed it up. But Democrats for a long time, like they were all in on the Washington Post, the New York Times and MSNBC throughout the first Trump era. So true. And this is very different now. You know, they feel betrayed in a lot of ways by those outlets that they previously-

The people who hate the New York Times most right now, not conservatives- Are liberals. Is liberals saying, why the hell are you saying Washington Trump, which the Times is doing?

Or Washington Post. I mean, they've had a massive drop in subscriptions. It's a detriment to their business, have shifted as well. So that has pushed a lot more just sort of normie liberals of all ages off of those and into, you know, podcasts, YouTube, etc.

But what do you think about people who will say, okay, fine, they're going to podcasts. I'm not gonna say names, because I don't pick on people right now, and they're liberal, but they're going to safe spaces. They're not going to come, Alyssa Slotkin's not going to come back on your show because she got such a rough ride. This was always a debate, right? I'm someone who does tough interviews and the people would say to me, why don't more people do? And I said, because of access, right? Access. The reason the Sunday shows don't grill Lindsey Graham is because they want Lindsey Graham to come back again. So they don't give him a hard time. That's one, you and me and Jennifer Welch, who sat in that chair very recently, who's grilled Cory Booker and grilled a bunch of other Democrats. Is there

a danger, though, that the Democrats are going to do podcasts, but we're going to do safe spaces

like the Republicans do? We're not going to do that. Of course. Yeah, I mean, they already are. We just talked about how Gavin Newsom, like he will did Van Lathan, I think, who did a good job pushing one over. He did a great job, yeah. But clearly there's a line. You know, he'll do ones that he'll get some, but he's picking and choosing.

No, I have great faith that Gavin Newsom will be coming on the show.

I have great faith.

And mine too. And mine too, and so on. on his show. So that is my... Well, but here's what I would say, though, is that the candidates who do subject themselves to those more difficult spaces, whether it's on the left or the right, by the way, like the guys who are willing to go on Fox News, who are willing to go on, you know, on Sean Reiner, some of the more like right wing coded podcasts, they are going to have so many more reps and be so much better in debates. They are not going to be caught flat-footed. You know, I mean, this is part of the thing with Kamala is like,

yes, she was not great in these interview settings, but also she wasn't great in those interview settings because she didn't subject herself to those interview settings. So she could get better at it. I mean, as you know, the Rogan, over the course of her career, put in the rest to be prepared. Because, I mean, I remember my first time doing a cable news interview. I was a deer in headlights. I could barely talk. I was terrified, right? This is something that you, like anything else, get better at over time.

So if you're someone who is thinking of running for president, the best thing you can do to prepare yourself so you're not caught off guard by some question you didn't expect is to go in places where you're going to be challenged and where it's going to be uncomfortable. That's the way that you grow.

And that basis Ro Khanna's got it locked down in 20, because he's everywhere. I can't switch on any kind of TV outlet, podcast outlet that he's not there. He's dedicated. This episode is sponsored by LED. As the quick GPT movement continues to grow, many of you who still need an AI tool for work or home are in search of perhaps a more ethical, more sustainable, more private alternative. And for the first time ever, open source has given us an alternative to the Silicon Valley surveillance machine. We don't have to use Google.

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all without privileged tech bro surveillance. Visit ellydee.ai today. It's free to try and their mission plan starts at only $5 a month. Let me ask you about the right-wing independent media. We've talked about some of ours. Right now there are these MAGA podcast wars

going on and I gotta say I'm enjoying them as an observer, as an outsider. We deserve this. I mean I've never seen it. It's always Democrats in disarray, the left with the circular firing squad, the right's always message discipline, everyone sticks together, they fall in line. Yep. Not this time. Explain to our viewers who have been spared. Oh my God. Just give us a summary to normies watching. What are the right-wing MAGA podcasts? What is going on right now?

Well, I mean, they-

It's big.

It is big. And so it would take a long time for me to give you all of the subplots. But, I mean, the Jews or the Muslims more? Right? Like that's what they're, many of them are really fighting over. I don't want to lump everybody in that bucket, but that's, that's, you know, the sort of

flavor of a lot of it. And so the latest flare up in this, you've got, you know, Tucker and Candace and Megyn Kelly is now kind of joined that side because she can see this is the way the young base is going. And then you've got Mark Levin and Ben Shapiro. Actually, Piers Morgan has now jumped in and going after Ben Shapiro and they're fighting. The latest flare up has been Mark Levin

has apparently been going after Megyn Kelly pretty relentlessly for a long time. Because he's-

He's gone after me too, he's an awful person.

Super Zionist, awful person, you know.

And- And, you know, and wasn't never Trump, by the way, always should remind people in these Trump accolades. They used to hate Trump.

And that's true of a lot of the people who are his biggest fans. I mean, Ben Shapiro was not a Trump guy. Right. So in any case, he's been going after her and he's very, you know, vicious and ugly, calling her like, you know, a graper grandma and was like, micro penis Mark Levin is coming after me again. And this launched a whole new round of this war.

And it's been kind of interesting to watch in preparation for this conversation. I listened to her full response. I watched some other right-wing media and how they're responding to it, et cetera. And there are a lot of people who are like,

how dare she? That's so vulgar. inappropriate. I'm like, in the era of Trump? I mean, what Trump said about her. Right. Exactly. That's absolutely a great point. And think about in the, remember in the 2016 primary, they were, they were comparing dick sizes. Like this was nothing new. It was of Trump either. What happened to him? I don't know where he ended up. Interesting. But so in any case, they found this over the line and of course, it's very misogynistic.

She hints at that in her response of, you guys had no problem with Mark when he was saying all this stuff, and now suddenly I respond and you've got the issue.

What's funny is that Megyn Kelly used to love Mark Levin. Yes, she did. this. So for me, two memes come to mind, two gifs come to mind when I'm watching. One is the Jon Stewart eating popcorn meme. That's me. I'm like, this is amazing. When I see the latest, I go to check. And the other one is the Ken Watanabe Godzilla versus King Kong one, which is let them fight. For people, I do a lot of public speaking events and audiences always like, what do you think about Tucker versus Ted Cruz? What do you think? And I'm like, as an outsider, I love it. I mean, I'm not, I will come to Tucker in a moment,

but for me, it's kind of like, I don't need to be involved. I don't need to take a side or, you know, endorse one tweet over another. But I love watching it.

Absolutely. As you said, we deserve this. to the macro conversation. You know, this is a sign that everybody knows the Trump era is coming to an end one way or another. He's incredibly unpopular. They're going to get destroyed in the midterms if they're free and fair remotely at all.

They can see the writing on the wall and they can also see that, you know, especially with an online young right, the direction they're going in. Yeah, it is a very dark direction in many ways. They are, you know, they're very gripper piled. So they're sort of reading the room of how this thing is

coming apart. And in the same way that after Bernie lost in 2020, there was a lot of like, left liberal, left on left, fighting and squabbling and drama, etc. They're kind of in that moment now where Trump is betrayed. Some of his promises, I would say it was all very foreseeable, but there is an element that feels very betrayed. There is a sense of who's going to take the reins next.

What is that direction going to look like? And so all of these personal grievances also that were underneath the surface, those are coming up too, which is why I say partly it's about Israel, like Jews versus Muslims, partly it's just these incredibly petty, personal, vicious beasts.

That's such a great segue to where I wanted to bring up Candace Owens. Wherever I go, people talk to me about Candace Owens. She's become increasingly popular, but also increasingly extreme. She's literally being sued by the president of France because she's obsessed with trying to say that the first lady of France is a man. These are the interesting causes she picks aside from Israel. The personal grievance is so fascinating because Ben Shapiro loathes her. He completely goes after her. He's the guy who hired her. He's the guy who gave her a platform. The guy was so anti-anti-Semites, but only really about Israel. She was pretty similar views when he hired her and he didn't have a problem then. And he platformed her for years when she was saying anti-Semitic things.

Of course, yes, she said that whole thing about like, Hitler was fine until he didn't want to just make Germany great again.

And that was TPUSA, which was with Charlie Kirk, exactly. But Ben Shapiro had fine with her at Daily Wire. But now, as you said, they can't keep their discipline. forces unable in the world of social media to just shut things down. I want to play a clip, hilarious clip from the Daily Wire of Ben and Michael Knowles who's one of his top hosts. Let's play that clip.

Michael, I'll just ask you straight up. Is Candace Owens doing something evil by attacking Erika Kern?

I think that it's wrong to attack Erika Kern.

Well, no, say the sentence with her name in it. No, I'm not going to dance like a puppet for the podcast.

So good.

Oh, the girls are fighting.

Not just the girls are fighting, just for context, for those of you who are blessed not to know what The Daily Wire is, Ben Shapiro is the founder, editor-in-chief, whatever you want to call it, emeritus of Daily Wire. Michael Knowles is technically his employee.

Right. you want me to say, because I'm scared. Nolls is friends with Candace and Candace's husband.

And he doesn't want a backlash.

And he doesn't want, he wants to, you know, make Ben happy, but he doesn't want to piss her off. And she is very powerful. I mean, in terms of her media platform.

People are scared.

Absolutely.

Donald Trump is scared, Crystal. He put out a statement praising Mark Levin at the weekend, which is hilarious, right? The guy is running a war that is a disaster. He's bombing the crap out of the Middle East, and he has time to do a long truth social post praising Mark Levin, stepping into that. My favorite part of the post, he says, some others have been attacking Mark Levin.

Even Donald Trump couldn't bring himself to say Tucker Carlson's name or Megyn Kelly's name.

Even he's a little scared. I love about that whole dynamic is Mark Levin got accused of having a micro penis and his response was to run to daddy and be like, please tell them I don't, please.

Rescue me.

Help me. Yes.

It was just pathetic all the way around. Liking this video? Then don't just watch, hit like, share and subscribe and tap the bell so you never miss a video or live show. But if you want early access to exclusive content, then you have to head to Zotero.com and subscribe now. You'll be supporting fearless,

independent journalism. And then we've got to talk about Tucker Carlson before we move on on this subject. Tucker Carlson has become this phenomenon. Wherever I go now, people on the left, people in the Muslim community, come up to me and say, when are you going to have Tucker Carlson on a show? What are you going to do with Tucker Carlson? What do you think of Tucker Carlson? People are obsessed with him. I get asked about Tucker Carlson more than I get asked about my wife and kids these days when I'm out and about. A, how did he get this big? And B, what do you make of this Tucker Carlson network not Fox.

In the old days, it would have been Fox primetime. Obviously, Fox is not sympathetic to his views. But Tucker is now a phenomenon. What do you make of his, I don't want to call it, journey, change, stance?

I mean, I think it's all about the platform that he's on. Now he's not with the audience of Fox and in those particular constraints. So there's a different audience to be gained online. And so that's what he is increasingly courting and cultivating.

And, you know, I mean, Tucker is an interesting case study for a whole lot of reasons, but one of them being that even though, like, Ted Cruz, for example, I'm sure knew that it was going to be contentious with him and Tucker, Tucker is so undeniable because he's so large that they still feel the need to go on.

They still feel like they have to do it.

In fact, Huckabee went on after watching what he did to Tucker, to Cruz, excuse me.

Yes, to Cruz and got destroyed and revealed something very important, which is why the relationship, you know, I think between the left and those of us who are, you know, pro-Palestine and, you know, an anti-Zionist, the relationship between the left and Tucker is very complicated because you see the interview with Ted Cruz and you're like, thank you, you know, one person to hold this evil man to account and to expose him and same thing with Mike Huckabee.

On the other hand, of course, many of his views are disgusting and abhorrent. And when it comes... And he didn't hold Nick Fuentes to account.

Or Vladimir Putin to account.

Yes. And yes, exactly right. And, you know, at the end of the day, for me, you know, my worldview, and I know your worldview, is centered around the view that all human beings are equal. That we all deserve equal rights. That we all deserve equal dignity and respect. And I abhor racism, Islamophobia, antisemitism,

like all of that bigotry. And he does not share that view.

He's a Christian nationalist.

I don't think he's him. He's a Christian nationalist. Yeah, that's it. And right now he's playing a particular game that I see not just him, Joe Kent, you mentioned, did the same thing in his letter, where they are very comfortable saying, Israel, Israel, Israel, Israel, it's all Israel's fault.

And let me be very clear, Israel has been wanting this war with Iran for at least 40 years. Netanyahu bragged about this is my 40 year fantasy, right? There is no doubt they were in the corridors of power here in DC, whispering in Trump's ear

and trying to persuade him to do this. But at the end of the day, this is Donald Trump's war. He is not some little sacrificial lamb. He's not a baby. He's not a toddler. He is the most powerful man on the planet. He is not a victim of happenstance here. The blame falls on his shoulders. And so what Tucker's game is, is to just talk about Israel. He might have a guest on like he had Sagar on. Sager's happy to criticize Trump. He might have a guest on that. Tucker never does. But not him. And for a while.

Interestingly, Marjorie Taylor Greene does.

Does.

And she's cost her career.

That's and that's it, right? That's it. He wants to have his cake and eat it too.

I'm so glad you're saying this point earlier this week and I was so glad when I saw your tweet because I was like yes Chris was coming on the show this week and now you've made that point so well. This idea that there's these two extremes right now in this city in particular in DC where there's people on the right like as you say Tucker Carlson and Joe Kent and others who are saying this is all Israel. Israel duped us into war, manipulated us into war, tricked us into war. It's Netanyahu's war, treating Trump like a child. And then there's the mainstream, I think you would call it, there's the Ben Shapiros or Jake Tappers or whatever it is people on cable news saying, this is anti-Semitic to say it's all about Netanyahu. Trump is president, it's Trump's

decision, as if Netanyahu's not part of it. He clearly is. I think you and I and people like us need to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time and say, obviously this war would not happen without Benjamin Netanyahu. And this is a point Ben Rhodes of all people made to me, a former deputy national security adviser last week. He said, are we saying there would be a war without Netanyahu? No. Netanyahu is a key player, but Trump is also a key player.

And why won't Tucker Carlson and others call out Donald Trump. And we know the reason for that. I mean, because they want to stay in good graces with his base. And it is a cult. And if you cross daddy, then they're afraid that they'll lose audience.

He's already attacking him.

Tucker hasn't attacked Trump and Trump's already attacking Tucker.

That's right. And I think, you know, pushed to the sidelines in a primary funded against him and Marjorie Taylor Greene. So you know, and then you could go back to like the Liz Cheney's or the Adam Kinzinger's like there is a long list of Republicans who have tried to directly challenge and confront Trump who are now irrelevant to the party.

So he wants to try to preserve that standing and walk this dance. Now what his defenders will say is, no, he wants to maintain his access so he can make this case. And I may have sympathy for that case up to a point,

but now it's like, okay, you tried that mode.

Yes, you failed.

And you failed. We're in the war. So like- Now you need to speak truth to power. That's what you believe. Yes. And I also get sick of the game playing like the 4D chess. Oh, if we do this, they'll do that. Sometimes you just have to tell the truth.

And that is what the most powerful thing is that you could do in the moment.

Yeah. I mean, watching him on Piers Morgan recently, Tucker Carlson was on Piers Morgan recently.

Actually, I think we have a clip. than to say like that guy went to Harvard, Ben Shapiro was all about the money and about the clicks and Ben Shapiro and a lot of these people are saying it out loud. We need to penalize anti-Semites with the law. What does that even mean?

They don't care about their feelings.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

I ended my own monologue response to him by saying those exact words, which probably triggered triggered his little pussy bitch outburst today as he's called it. Pussy bitch outburst. These are the MAGA wars, the podcast wars. Tucker Carlson, by the way, if he does run for president, he's got message discipline there. You know, he came to attack Ben Shapiro. Yeah, he's talking points. When I watched Tucker, I think of that other meme, the click hole meme of the worst person in the world just made a great point. I always I was like, I'm always like, yes, that's a great point. But it's Tucker Carlson. Can I can I now Megan Kelly's in that group. I'm making Kelly has come after me. I can't stand some of the stuff she said and done over the years. But right now, when she's

calling out live in your life. All right. All right podcast as sure, but the MAGA base is still with Trump. The vast majority of them. They haven't ditched him and said, you betrayed us.

That's such an important point because that gets overstated.

We were saying the MAGA split on this, and it's not quite. I mean, there is a split, but the vast majority of Trump voters, because they're in a cult, still support him. of the country, thankfully, including independents, have clearly turned on Israel and they were against this war from the beginning, they haven't switched. Are you surprised with how anti-war and anti-Israel

American public opinion has become? Shocking. I mean, it's shocking having obviously followed and covered this space for many years. Like it is obvious that this is where people should be, especially after watching, you know, multiple years of a genocide unfolding in their feed, but just to know where we were a short time ago and the lockstep support that Israel enjoyed in a bipartisan manner, and to see now on the Democratic side. I mean, we just had these primaries in Illinois, which were kind of a mixed bag, but the most telling part to me is AIPAC did not want their name on the ads.

There were no ads about- They created fake new organizations.

Fake new PACs, funneling money in through their donors, so they weren't associated with it. They know they are completely toxic in a democratic primary. They know that. And so that is such a sea change. And I think it's very important, too,

for the way Israel is thinking about this moment for them as a nation and the Iran war, they know that the politics in the US have changed, irrevocably. And if there is a democratic president in 2028, they're not gonna get the same carte blanche

because I do believe in the democratic primary, this will be a major, major litmus test.

Isn't the worry though, that I don't wanna be the cynical guy here, but isn't the worry though that I don't want to be the cynical guy here but isn't the worry though that in a democratic primary and we're seeing this already you will have mainstream candidates saying what needs to be said they'll talk the talk yes but once they're in office will they actually dare talk about conditioning aid will they actually say you know will a president Newsom say apartheid governor Newsom said it in passing yeah at a pod save America live event immediately

walked back uh will it will president Newsom say and you passing at a Pod Save America live event. I immediately walked back.

Will President Newsom say it? And you know, similarly, Governor Shapiro is a different issue because we know he's much more pro-Israel anyways. But some of these candidates like Pete Buttigieg, for example, have been kind of slightly adjusting their views per podcast on Israel-Palestine. Is the public A, going to see through those people who genuinely believe this stuff, a Ro Khanna, a Chris Van Hollen, an AOC obviously,

versus people who might not be, who might just be seeing the internal polling and know that they can't be as pro-Israel. Once they're in office, all bets are off. I am cautiously hopeful. Okay, good. Although I certainly understand and respect your cynicism. And here's what I would say is, oftentimes that extreme pro-Israel sentiment comes with also just an overall alignment with the donor class on a variety of issues. And you see this with Gavin Newsom, right? He's really trying to find that, how do I massage this?

He knows he's got a problem because you've got donors here, you've got the base over here. He's trying to find out where to be. And, you know, on something like funding a genocide, there just is no middle ground massaging message point, you know, message talking point, place to land. So over time, that is going to reveal itself not only on that, but, you know, another issue

for him is he's fighting against this billionaire tax, wealth tax in California. I just the Democratic base is not putting up with this crap. And they're disgusted with Chuck Schumer. They're disgusted with Democratic leadership. They're disgusted with capitulation to Trump. Now Newsom does a good, you know, sort of show of resistance to Trump. And I think people really like that. And that's why he's a front runner. But I do believe, especially the record

will catch up with him at some point. I think so. And also because from what I've seen of podcast appearances, he has already been exposed in certain ways. He hasn't shown himself to be as nimble as I honestly expected him to be in navigating some of these difficult issues.

You mentioned billionaire tax and I can't think but JB Pritzker is a literal billionaire.

Do you think he's got a chance as a billionaire? I don't think the fact that he's a billionaire is necessarily a problem for him because everybody loves a good class trader. You know, I mean, they do. It was actually part of Trump's original appeal. As he was like, look, I'm a billionaire. I understand what the system is. He may have other issues, you know, as that may emerge. I think he's, you know, also like pretty pro-Israel and according to the statements that I've seen of his. So that'll be an issue. Our good friend Jennifer Welch held him to account as well. Let me ask you this, Iran.

So how much of Iran is gonna be a role? Not just Gaza in 2028, because if you go back to 2008, we were five years out from the Iraq war. The surge had happened. Bush was on his way out, super unpopular. Hillary Clinton was about to be coronated in 08.

And Obama comes along as this anti-war candidate. Dumb war, Iraq is a dumb war. He runs as an anti-war candidate, people try and rewrite history, but he ran as an anti-war candidate and that helped him win. Democrats didn't imagine that Iraq would feature because they'd already had O4 and put up John Kerry and John Edward who were pro-war. They didn't think O8 would come back and bite them in the arse. I wonder how many Democrats now are thinking, well by 28 this is all gone, it'll be an affordability, it'll be an inflation election, it'll be a change election. And actually people like a Roe Connor may still be insisting that

Iran and Gaza is on the debate stage. Oh, I absolutely think it could be a central issue because I don't think we're getting out of this war anytime soon. I mean, unfortunately, I think we're in this escalation trap cycle now. You know, just today we got the news that the US and Israel struck this important oil field in Iran. Iran said, OK, all bets are off. Big natural gas field. Yeah, exactly. We're going after, you know, all of the oil and gas facilities in the region up the escalation chain. And even if

Trump decides he's going to just declare mission accomplished and walk away, the Iranians get a say in that. Yes. And they have been broadcasting. No, we need you to pay. We want it to be an extreme price. And then you've also the Israelis get a say to apparently. So I don't think this is going to be a short war. And I've never understood. You know, there's this talking point in American politics. I'm sure you've heard it, Maddie. That's like people don't vote on foreign policy. I'm like, what are you talking about? 2008 was all about the Iraq war. That's a major part of the reason Obama wins.

Now the DNC apparently is acknowledging in private that 2024 may have been about foreign policy.

And Trump, he came out very opportunistically in 2016 and was like, I'm against the Iraq war. That was very important for him as well. And then he did that, played that trick again.

In 24.

In 24. In 24. And people fell for it in places like Michigan. People fell for it again. And here we are. But those are, I was shocked. We did a focus group after Trump won of these AOC Trump voters to see like, okay, what is the, and a lot of people said, not just Gaza, but war moral objection, but they also feel like you're spending all this money on all these bombs and missiles and aircraft carriers and all this stuff, and I can't afford groceries, I can't afford gas, I can't afford rent, I can't aspire to home ownership, and so it becomes incredibly important. I don't think you can disentangle the

domestic and the foreign. Which is the MAGA anti-war line, right? There's this like, America first, why are we spending money for those foreigners? They gutted USAID, that was actually helping in some places like Sudan, Afghanistan, poor people, but we're spending $11 billion so far, and some predictions could go up to 65.

Oh, it's way more than that.

It's way more than that. I think the Penn-Wharton budget study that they do, $65 billion is the price tag they've put on it so far, which could end homelessness and do all sorts of good things at home. The problem is, Republicans, anti-war Republicans, the few that we have are pushing that. Not many Democrats are. In fact, Democrats are like, should we fund the war?

Some senators and members of Congress. I wish we had an opposition party that could say what you're saying, which could say what a lot of MAGA people are saying, which could say what a lot of MAGA people are saying, which is, why are we wasting this money on foreign wars? And they don't, unfortunately, because they're part of the military-industrial complex. They're getting money from the military-industrial complex. They fear that if you don't vote for a war, you'll be accused of being unpatriotic. That

playbook's dead. Look at the polling. This is the first war of my lifetime where the not fallen into line and given it majority support straight after it started. Well, and it's also ideological. I mean, Joe Biden, I think, I don't know how functional his brain was, but I think he realized that Gaza was a political problem for him, but he was committed to that Zionist project and he was willing to take some political pain

and ultimately-

It makes Harris' position so frustrating because she clearly wasn't committed to it, but still

went along with it. But still went along with it. But he was willing to take some political pain and even end up handing the White House back to Donald Trump in order to hold the line in favor of genocide. So some of it is ideological. I mean, you think of Chuck Schumer as a great example.

Right now, Chuck Schumer is 100% in favor of this war.

Yes.

And the only reason he's not saying it publicly with Democrats and Trump is president. And here's what Ryan and Dropsite reported. They reported exactly that, that not just Schumer, but a lot of Democrats are sort of low-key in favor of the war, but they recognize it's probably a political liability for Trump. So instead of fighting against it, they just stay quiet. And that's what we see, isn't it?

I mean, you don't hear. You don't hear many Democrats. There are some, there are definitely some, but you do not hear democratic leadership out there just relentlessly making the case on this illegal, awful war.

Yeah, just so bad I want to kill myself sometimes. Yes, yesterday when Joe Kent quit, Joe Kent is a far-right republican, he is links to white supremacist groups, I'm not a defender of Joe Kent, but the idea that the first reaction from Democrats, and of course Jared Moskowitz went straight on to CNN and Wolf Blitzer talk about, is to say, well he's an anti-Semite and his resignation has made it all about Israel. It's like, that can't be your first response. Your first response as a politician and opposition body to say, hey Donald Trump, your know, quite a centrist politician in many ways, but quite populist in his rhetoric and

approach to campaigning. He's come out and said, Donald Trump ran on exposing pedophiles and stopping wars. Instead, he's protecting pedophiles and starting wars. It's that simple.

Say that, Democrat. It's not rocket science. Just say that. But, you know, a lot of it is, like, our idea of what politics should be and their idea of how to practice politics are two very different things because their idea is like, let me save a thing that keeps me in the good graces with the donors who are going to fund my campaign and, you know, entrench me in power. And because there's so much power of incumbency, you know, it doesn't really matter and I'm not going to debate my opponent and we're in these gerrymandered districts. So that's how you end up with this shocking sense

of where are you people and what are you doing? Well, they're playing the game as it's been, as it's currently constructed and as has made sense for them throughout their careers.

You are the hopeful one. Now you're the hopeful one in this conversation. So where do you see the shards of light. We started off the conversation as we wrap up, we started the conversation pointing out that you just won a podcast award, you got 1.9 million subscribers on YouTube, Senator Lisa Slotkin's staff before they were fired put her on your show. Where are the shards

of light? Where are we turning things around, the super tanker? I mean, I think the big hope for me is the distance between where the Democratic base is and where the Democratic electeds and leadership are is such a vast gulf. It simply can't be sustained.

It's not sustainable.

It is not sustainable. And the other piece that is very helpful to me as we discussed earlier is that some of that bedrock trust of the liberal media institutions that have been so important in manufacturing consent among the Democratic base, like we're in a different era

for that as well. And that creates pitfalls, right? You rightly point out there are some podcasts that are still going to kind of be in that model. And just because you're quote unquote independent media doesn't actually mean you're independent from corporate

influence, et cetera. And that's important to keep in mind. But it creates an opening. It creates a possibility. And I think we've seen the way that liberals have come to our politics.

I mean, it's no longer an uphill battle to make the case on any of the core things that we believe in from Israel and human rights and high wages and Medicare for all. And all of those things are just like the overwhelmingly popular position in the Democratic Party.

So those are the places where I'm hopeful.

You're seeing that across the board. I mean, as I said, we had Jennifer Welch here and she talked about having just been a kind of unthinking liberal who cared only about abortion rights. And then she started looking into things like Palestine and other things and corporate money. And she's like, oh, this is infuriating.

Even the Podsay folks, they've been very strong on Iran and Israel recently. Favreau and others have been calling out the Jonathan Greenblatts of this world who try and weaponise antisemitism and shut it down. They're as mainstream on the liberal side as you can get. They literally now syndicate content to MSNOW. So like, crooked media is an interesting example of people who are willing to talk now in populist tones, willing to call out Israel, etc, etc. So I think you're right about those things changing. The problem is we've got AIPAC throwing loads of money into races. They still did block people like former Zotero contributor, Kat Abugazala and others in Illinois this week.

So it is quite a tough battle with the money involved.

Well, and they're getting more clever. You know, they're coming up with new strategies to wash their, so people don't have to get the AIPAC stink associated with them since they become this toxic brand. So we are going to have to adjust tactics as well. But I will say, you know, there's a big distinction between a congressional race,

where having run for the House myself, and a presidential race, just the level of attention that people pay, the amount of scrutiny, it's just completely different level. And even at the congressional level,

I mean, you know, Daniel Biss, who won that race, he would have been considered sort of like on the fringe of opinion with regard to Israel and Palestine. He's a J Street guy. Not long ago. I mean, he's sort of like a, you know, a Brad Lander. Yeah, exactly. No, I think Brad's better than Daniel. You think Brad is more... Better than Daniel Biss, yes, I think in a presidential race with the debates with all the scrutiny that comes, you will have more of an ability of the base to really assess these people and whether they just talk a good game on Twitter or whether they're going to not just on Israel, but across the board, buck the capitals class

and the donor class. I mean, the other thing we didn't talk about, but has been a major focus for me is AI, which I think is an apocalyptic disaster. This has to be another litmus test. It's existential for literally civilization.

I 100% agree. Sadly, a conversation for another day, but yes. And the role of the AI lobby, in fact, in protecting them from regulation and screwing us over. How are we gonna have free and fair elections if we don't do

predictions, but just more desires as a journalist, commentator, YouTuber, who do you want to see on the either side? Do you want to see like a Tucker Carlson versus AOC race?

I do not want Tucker Carlson to run because I think he's much more formidable than a J.D. Vance

or a Marco Rubio. That's a good point. AOC would probably trounce J.D. Vance.

I think so. Yeah.

I mean, I do think- Where is J.D. Vance? He's gone to ground.

Coward. You know what? He's out there still blaming Joe Biden for gas prices, and I'm not even kidding. But I think that there is a decent possibility after this horrific war and economic calamity and all the horror of ice and all of the things that are happening right now. I do think there's a possibility the Republican Party is just such a destroyed project that

even someone like a Tucker Carlson, who I think is talented and has given himself some plausible deniability on these things. I think there's a possibility that even for someone like that, it's just not retrievable.

I suspect the Republican establishment would try and crush him in the same way they tried to crush and failed Trump in 2016. Yeah, they might work against a Tucker. Maybe. I can imagine them, you know, their causes they care about being so dear to them.

Maybe, but you know, business is not afraid of fascism, as you know. So yes, they tried to crush Trump, but there's a reason they were successful with Bernie and not with... No, but if Tucker was just running on a Christian nationalist

authoritarian platform, as you say, business has no problem with that. But if he's running on an anti-YNT Israel platform, we know that the powers that be in military industrial complex and pro-Israel lobby and even some Christian evangelicals will not want that. We saw that in the UK with Jeremy very clearly. I'm fascinated. I don't know who the candidates will be. I don't do predictions anymore because you can't predict anything in this crazy world. You know, it's as people who are in independent media, I think it'll be fascinating to see how we cover the race versus

what dying cable news does. Well, one prediction I will make is it will definitely be interesting.

That's no doubt about that. I mean, this is all based on the assumption we even have an election in 2028, which I'm still not convinced about, so.

Fair enough. Fair enough.

Why are you going to end on such a downer? No, no, no, there will be an election in 28 and the people, the people will win. Well, make sure you go to wherever you go to download and subscribe to your podcast. Go to Zotero.com to become a subscriber, ideally a paid subscriber, support independent media, support Zotero.com so you can get new episodes of We're Not Kidding as soon as they drop. Make sure you go to the Breaking Point YouTube channel if you're not already subscribed there. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

This was fun. Thank you for having me.

It's been an absolute pleasure.

I really appreciate it.

I'm Mehdi Hasan.

I'm Crystal Ball.

We were not kidding. I'm your host Mehdi Hassan and today's co-host was Crystal Ball. Our executive producer is Kieran Alvey, our senior producer and editor is Frank Capello, our music was composed by Andy Claussen, our design is by Alicia Taitone, our mix engineer is Valentino Rivera, and the title card animation is by Ehsan Mezrali. Did you like this video? Don't forget to subscribe to this YouTube channel and turn on notifications. For exclusive content and to support our independent, For exclusive content and to support our independent, unfiltered journalism, head over to Zetteo.com. Your support matters.