“Big BULLY!” | Trump Accuses China Of Russia & India Axis Feat. Dave Smith

Comrades, you've worked hard.

We will never give up!

There could be another superpower world order that doesn't involve America at all.

I'm an American. I don't root for Russia or China or India or North Korea, but maybe it's not the worst thing in the world that this moment is ending.

Donald Trump right now very much is acting like a fascist dictator. And I think that China simply sees an opportunity.

I think what India is trying to say to Trump with those images in China is, Donald Trump, India has options, and you're not our school yard bully anymore.

The fact remains is the Indian arrogance that's been displayed to President Trump manifests itself in the fact that we are now becoming much closer to Pakistan. That should actually give India some pause.

It's this constant saber rattling of what the new war is supposed to be, even when it comes to countries like Russia and China, who appears we both know we can't fight wars

with. China's vast military parade today was officially held to mark 80 years since the country defeated Japan in the Second World War. But really, it was about sending a message. And the message was not very subtle. This is the first time that China's Xi Jinping, North Korea's Kim Jong-un, and Russia's Vladimir

Putin have ever appeared together. And the world's premier dictators watched a staggering display of military heft, including nuclear ballistic missiles, laser weapons, giant underwater drones and robot wolves. In all honesty, it was probably a bit closer to what President Trump imagined for his own parade in Washington, DC, earlier this year. And the US president, who was deliberately not invited,

well, sounded a bit jilted. "'Please give my warmest regards to Putin and Kim Jong-un, he wrote to the Chinese leader, as you conspire against the United States of America. Well, conspiring or not, the so-called anti-NATO alliance wants the Western world to know that it means business. India's Modi's also been glad-handing in Beijing this week, which many believe was another

sign that Trump's trade war and his new bromance with NATO had brought the world's other big powers together. There's excitable talk about a new Cold War, a new Axis of Evil, and the demise of American supremacy. But there's a counter-argument too. One that says America's power should end at its borders, and that the people who talk about Axis of Evil have delivered nothing more than debt and war.

So is Xi Jinping the new sheriff of the world police? And if so, how afraid should we be? Well, to debate all this, I'm joined by Barkha Dutt, the founder and host of Mojo Story, by Cyrus Janssen, a geopolitical analyst, by Dave Smith, host of Part of the Problem,

by General Mark Kimmitt, the former assistant secretary for political and military affairs, and by Gordon Chang, author of Plan Red, China's Project to Destroy America. So a stellar panel, welcome to all of you to Uncensored, welcome back in most cases. Dave Smith, let me start with you here. It's quite a menacing image, wasn't it, of Putin, Kim Jong-un, Xi Jinping marching together in what appeared to be a pretty big statement to the world that there could be another superpower world order that doesn't

involve America at all.

Yeah, well, I think that's certainly the message that they're trying to send that the unipolar moment is over. And of course, I believe it was Charles Krauthammer who coined the term, and even he called it the unipolar moment. It was never inevitable that forever there would be one lone superpower in the world. And in fact, that moment after the collapse of the Soviet Union, what was remarkable about

it was its uniqueness. There really hadn't ever been such a dominant superpower that was the lone superpower in the world. I would say that from my perspective, I'm an American and what I care about is my country and the people of the United States of America.

And I think that as you kind of laid out the counter argument at the beginning there, the unipolar moment was a disaster for the United States of America. And I think it was like Lord Atkin broke it down many years ago that it was just simply too much power concentrated in Washington, DC. The neoconservatives who hijacked our foreign policy wrote very explicitly about this in the 1990s. Anyone can read it for themselves,

that the Project for a New American century documents are still available online where they decided that Because we have so much power now What we need to do is fight wars on multiple fronts against countries that are no pose no real threat To the United States of America and the our country is in a much weaker place now than we were in 1991 in many ways drowning in debt and have totally lost our moral standing

around the world as we just sit on mountains of the corpses of innocent people for these wars of choice that we've decided to fight nonstop for decades. We still have troops in Iraq and Syria. We're launching preemptive wars of choice on Iran. We're backing a genocide in Gaza. And I don't see what this has achieved

for the American people other than drowning us in debt, getting a lot of innocent people killed and making the world hate us. So I'm an American. I don't root for Russia or China or India or North Korea, but maybe it's not the worst thing in the world that this moment is ending.

Barkha Dutt, the interesting part of this to me is not that Russia is cozying up to China or North Korea. It's the presence of the Indian Prime Minister, Narendra Modi, because that follows Donald Trump and the trade war, the 55% tariff on India, which surprised many people who thought, well, hang on. America was getting on well with India and appeared to be parking that relationship

well away from Russia, China, North Korea. Now suddenly, through this economic attack, if you like, on India, it seems to have driven India into the bosom of this new world order. How do you see it from India's perspective?

Piers, I would agree that the unipolar moment is over, but I think Donald Trump has not got the memo. He is still behaving like he's the feudal warlord of the world, that he can wag his fingers at other sovereign nations, tell them to sit up, stand up, do pushups, there's a good boy, and if they don't, they will be punished.

From the Indian perspective, Trump's decision to impose a penalty of an additional 25 percent on India for its purchase of Russian oil is basically seen by Indians as an affront to our sovereignty. India's ambassador to Moscow has made it clear that we as a country will buy oil where we get the best deal. To top it all, America's staggering hypocrisy is on full display.

Let me just share a couple of data points with you. The Americans, and I don't know how many American people know this, America continues to import fertilizers, palladium, uranium from Russia. Between January and May, the import of palladium and uranium respectively has gone up by 37 percent and 28 percent. The European Union is buying refined oil from India.

India is purchasing crude from Russia, refining it, and the European Union is buying it, up to $15 billion worth of oil imports. is is Donald Trump, India has options, and you're not our schoolyard bully anymore, or never were.

Right. General Khamis, from a military point of view, it struck me just looking at this from afar, that for many years, China's been waging what many think is a kind of economic form of imperialism, particularly in places like Africa, for example,

going into African countries, paying off the debt in some cases, providing a lot of infrastructure, bridges, schools, hospitals, and so on, but getting their hands on vast amounts of minerals and resources and so on. Therefore, building a kind of economic imperialistic power, but not a military one necessarily.

How worried should people start to be getting now, given the imagery coming out of this new apparent world order about China's military power?

Well, first of all, let me talk about India. The fact remains is the Indian arrogance that's been displayed to President Trump manifests itself in the fact that we are now becoming much closer to Pakistan. Field Marshal Mounir has now become and has a bromance with President Trump that should actually give India some pause. Now back to your larger question about China, you're exactly right. The issue is where we used to roll tanks, China now is rolling debt bombs. You take a look at a number of the nations that China has invested in, and they have

brought many of those countries to near bankruptcy. But I agree with you about China's commercial sovereignty. I'm in the Middle East right now and you can't swing a dead cat without running into a Chinese businessman. It's very, very effective. China comes on very loose terms and their loose terms are simply we don't want to get involved in your internal affairs and we will lend you

money and we'll build you infrastructure. That's not a bad deal, particularly for the African nations until those African nations can no longer manage the debt.

So just purely on the military aspect, from a military perspective, how concerned are you about the fact that China's now flexing its muscle in terms of these images, in terms of its parades and so on, with Russia, with North Korea, now with India as well.

Is this something we should be concerned about or is a lot of this posturing, do you think? Now, everybody knows how much I enjoy my tea and I'm very happy to say that today's show is sponsored by Peaks Pure Fermented Teas. These are not your average brews.

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Well, I don't think we should ignore it.

I mean, you're looking at capability right now on your screen. The fact remains is though, these look very much like the Russian parades that have been held since 1945, victory in World War II.

And the fact remains is that Ukraine has demonstrated that Russia in many, many ways is a paper tiger. Now, you can't deny the scale and the scope of the Chinese military. But three things. Number one, China has never invaded outside of their territory. Number two, if they want to take over Taiwan anytime soon, it would be a disaster for China, the casualties that they would undertake. Because, number three, let's be candid. China will eventually have sovereignty over Taiwan. It won't be done through their military power. It will be done the way they

took over sovereignty in Hong Kong. It's just a natural evolution and we know the Chinese are

patient. Gordon Chang, I think you were shaking your head there. So what is your response to

what General Kim has said? The future of Taiwan certainly is uncertain. And there are a lot of reasons that you can talk about why China will not invade Taiwan or take it over in another way. Got to remember that the people in Taiwan, they self-identify not as Chinese, but overwhelmingly as Taiwanese. Self-identification surveys show basically 80% or more believe that they are not Chinese. And the people in Taiwan who believe they're Chinese in these self-identification surveys

is always below 5%. Now this is not to say China will never take over Taiwan, but it is to say it's certainly not inevitable, because the people in Taiwan are very different from the people in Hong Kong who did believe that they're Chinese. And indeed, there's also 110 miles of water between China and Taiwan. And about 70 percent of Taiwan is mountainous, which is perfect terrain for defenders.

I also think that it's going to be very unpopular for China to invade Taiwan, because the people in China don't want it for a lot of reasons. If we're going to worry about a country that China invades, think about the South China Sea, especially Scarborough Shoal, Second Thomas Shoal. Those are places where there is extremely belligerent Chinese activity at the present time and that could spark a war because China cannot de-escalate now. It cannot act with the rest of the international

community. Cyrus Janssen, you spent a lot of time in China. You're pretty pro-Chinese. Are they looking at what's happening in the United States with what many perceive to be a pretty chaotic strategy with tariffs and so on? Are they looking at this as an opportunity

that with America seemingly prepared to damage and fracture relations with even close neighbors like Canada and so on, that there's an opportunity here for China to exploit this?

Here's your spot on I think the sentiment in China right now is that there's a great opportunity. I mean, there's actually a saying for Trump, he has a nickname in China, which is Jianguo, which literally means to build the country. So the Chinese people really feel that Donald Trump, through his tariffs and through his actions as president,

I mean, this is very ironic. Right now, China is celebrating the 80-year victory over fascism, and Donald Trump right now very much is acting like a fascist dictator in how he is ruling the United States of America. He is compromising many of the fundamentals

of our constitution and doing many things that are simply go against what we stand for in the United States or what we're supposed to stand for. And I think that China simply sees an opportunity. And this is what if you talk to people in China, they see that, you know, Chinese people are always willing to open up to do business. I mean, American businesses have been thriving in China for many, many decades. There's always an opportunity. We talk about Africa. I mean, if you look at Africa, 53 of 54 nations in Africa have pledged their allegiance to

China in an earlier summit that was held by Xi Jinping earlier this year. Generally speaking, I mean, this, you can look at Western surveys, over 300 surveys, they actually point to the fact that China is indeed actually very popular amongst the people in Africa because they bring real tangible benefits to the continent, not this colonial past that the United States and European allies do. So honestly, I mean, Donald Trump is very popular in China, but he's popular for the

reason that Chinese people feel that China's getting stronger with this. We look at, for example, the sanctions against the tech industry. This has caused China to become faster, to become better. You put China in a corner, they're not going to give up. They're going to invent their way out of this situation. And this is even what was said by Donald Trump.

He said, look, we cannot tariff the semiconductor industry anymore because it will only motivate the Chinese to get better at what they're doing. And this is exactly why Donald Trump has this nickname of the country builder. And yes, I would say Chinese people are very optimistic about the future. And again, Donald Trump, I mean, you hit the nail on the head, Pierce. Look at what he has done to our traditional allies.

I'm also half Canadian. My wife is from Vancouver, Canada. It is amazing how he has destroyed the most important geopolitical relationship for the United States. And that's our closest ally, Canada.

But has he? I mean, look, let's play devil's advocate here. I mean, has he destroyed them or is he doing what Donald Trump often likes to do, which is chucking things up in the air and seeing what sticks? He's launched a global tariff war and quite a few countries, including my own, the United Kingdom, have rolled over pretty quickly and are now paying a lot more than they were before Trump came into power for

a second term. So there is a method to the apparent madness. He believes that tariffs can be used as a very effective bartering tool, and a lot of countries are prepared to go along with it. The issue, I think, that you may have here is that is the India part of this maybe what is surprising him

and taking him a little bit, you know, a pause perhaps to think about it because he's been very vocal about China for 40 years. Every interview I've ever done with Donald Trump, there's dozens, he'll bring up China and how he believes that they've been aggressively

going after American interests. So that's nothing surprising. Same with Russia. Same with North Korea. India seems to me to be key to this. If India was to suddenly perceive this new axis together

here, and let me bring in General Kim here, I shall miss. If India was to perceive that their new friends were the new axis, the new world order that we've all seen in these pictures today, how worrying would that be to you as a former US general?

Well first of all, I think India brings a lot of capability to any alliance between China and the Chinese axis that you're trying to describe, the fact remains is that we went through the Cold War period where China was besties with Russia. So we understand what it's like when we have China, India either being part of a Russian axis or part of a non-aligned movement. So yes, India has grown.

I would offer with a significant amount of American technology, particularly in agriculture. But I'm not necessarily worried that in the long run a democratic nation like India is going to cozy up and become aligned with a communist Leninist country like China. There's just natural incompatibilities. Just as Donald Trump is trying to use tariffs as a leverage point, I think Modi is trying to use alliances as a leverage point as well. So in the long run, I think the natural constituency between India, the world's largest democracy, and the United States will eventually settle down

because if nothing else, Donald Trump will not be in power forever.

Well, he might. We never know, do we? Because, I mean, Elon Musk is building these optimists humanoid robots and the theory goes that we all might start having failing body parts replaced by robotic parts. So we slowly become robots. And I could quite see Dave Smith, I could quite see Donald Trump being first in the line

to extend his life and his tenure as president for as long as humanly, if not robotically possible. I've seen the Piers Morgan question, but it's not really pretty. Sorry, sorry, General Kivitt, I miss that. I said I've seen the Piers Morgan model and it's not very pretty. Thank you for that little sidewinder. Yeah, I mean, Dave Smith, I mean, I think that if I'm not Donald Trump, but if I'm sitting there and I'm Donald Trump, this tariff war I don't

think has been going nearly as badly from his perspective as a lot of other people would like it to be going. He's doing quite a few deals. He's getting better trade deals with a number of countries, like I said, including the United Kingdom. He will say win, win, win, win, and we'll keep going here and see how we end up.

But China is not an average country. Population 1.45 billion people. Active servicemen around 1.48 million. Reserves 1.15 million. Second largest standing army in the world. This is not a trifling matter, I don't think,

what is going on here with India and the United States. What do you think? U.S. national debt is more than 37 trillion dollars. These are uncertain times for the global economy. It's not to make you think maybe now would be a good time to buy some gold, whether it's a hedge against inflation, peace of mind during global instability or just sensible diversification.

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free information pack. Again, just text Piers to 989-898. Well, I mean, and nobody's added to that list also enough H-bombs to blow up the entire world. And so I think oftentimes we think about these things almost as if there's gonna be another World War II style conventional war. But I think on some level, we all know that we simply can't risk that. I mean, there's not gonna be a direct war between America and China or America and Russia.

And if there is, that will quite possibly be the end of civilization. I think that another big missing piece from all of this is that, essentially it was the policy of Joe Biden that pushed Russia into China's arms. Putin essentially had no other option than to cozy up, uh, with, with the Chinese. And, you know, look, I, I would say, and I, as I've made this point many times on your show, Pierce, right? Like the American people never had a referendum on empire.

We never decided we wanted to be the global empire, the policeman of the world. And in fact, if you look at US elections, George W. Bush in the year 2000 ran on a humble foreign policy, rejecting nation building, rejecting being the policeman of the world. It's hard for people to believe that now, but that actually was what he ran on in the year 2000. Obama in 2008 ran as the peace candidate, and people overwhelmingly voted for him. Donald Trump in 2016 and in 2024 ran as the peace candidate and won both of those elections.

And it's an outrage that our government in DC goes around bullying the world. I mean, imagine asking the Indians. A similar thing happened a few years ago when Joe Biden went to the Saudis and asked them to lower the price of oil because he was dealing with price inflation from his policies over here. On what ground do we expect these other countries to do things that hurt their own people to benefit our empire? It's a ridiculous

request. And so while you're right, while China's going around and offering these sweet deals to people, we do the opposite. The IMF comes in and offers loans and demands incredibly difficult, you know, things for countries to follow.

You essentially have to be our sock puppet if you want to be propped up by the US. And this isn't about Donald Trump. This is what the US government's been doing since the end of World War II. And then it really exploded after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

But look, we already figured out, Pierce, and we know this on a theoretical level. If anyone wants to, I highly recommend read the book Socialism by Ludwig von Mises. Socialism does not work. But if the theory wasn't enough for you, you could just look at the empirical examples.

I mean, we've had examples now with East Germany and West Germany, same people, same culture, two different economic models in Korea as well. If you zoom out at this, we know what ends up winning the economic war, it's capitalism. Socialism doesn't work. And so if America really wants to be prosperous then maybe we should think about drastic cuts in government spending and cuts and regulations

We know what will unleash the American economy And it's never been tariffing every country or bullying every country around and it's certainly never been starting stupid wars, and we have Dramatically weakened our own standing in the world We know what to do here. And it was really the advice of the founding fathers, right? Be friends with other nations, trade with them,

get along with people. But instead, it's this constant saber rattling of what the new war is supposed to be. Even when it comes to countries like Russia and China, who Pierce, we both know we can't fight wars with. You know, one of the points that you've been making a lot over the last year and talking

specifically about your military family is that like, there are the logistics on the ground. There's reality that we bump up against. We can't retake Crimea from Vladimir Putin, even if we think it ought to belong to Ukraine. And so much of the time, you know, when these conversations about China taking Taiwan, it's like, well, then we'd have to fight a war with China.

It's ridiculous. It's on the level of imagine if there was the political will and there was the political desire for the US, we decided we were going to take Juarez, Mexico. And then China said, we won't let you do that. How ridiculous does that sound? They can't stop us from doing that and as the general I'm sure will tell you run the war games. We lose that war. So I think everybody should we should

calm down. America has been fighting wars and spending ourselves deep into debt. China has been going around and doing business with people, maybe that's a better model. Barkha Dutt, I can see you nodding repeatedly there. A very

unusual experience for Dave Smith I think when he's talking, but you were

agreeing with what he was saying. Well the essence of it, yes, about America being a big bully and that not working with many countries, including my own. General Kimmitt made a point about the new cozy love fest between Pakistan's field marshal Asim Munir and the Trump administration and said India should take pause. India has noticed this.

So first of all, if you want to make an argument about authoritarians on display at the China military parade, well, Pakistan's field marshal was there as well. Pakistan was the only country where the army chief had to actually attend all the meetings alongside the so-called elected prime minister, because we basically know Pakistan's army runs Pakistan.

So that's not a great point about authoritarians and democracy. Secondly, I'm not sure how many people know that Trump's family has a business link with the Crypto Council in Pakistan. And many people in India, and there's been a lot of American reporting

on this as well, believe that Trump's newfound love of Pakistan in his second term has something to do with business dealings. And we know for Trump, business matters. The third point I'd like to make

that none of you have spoken about, we're all acting like this is all about trade, it's only about trade. Listen, India has been slapped with a punishment, right? The 25% of the 50% is a penalty because India buys Russian oil. China buys more oil from Russia than India does. China hasn't been slapped with that penalty because China has choke points with the United

States of America that clearly Trump believes India does not. So first, there's hypocrisy there. But secondly, I don't even think this is about trade. I think Trump is having a massive sulk because Pakistan thinks he should get the Nobel. He wanted India to make the same point in public. India refused.

He wanted India to say, thank you, Trump, you helped India end the war, the four-day military conflict with Pakistan. India said, look, you made the phone calls, but we did our own thing. We ended this on our own terms. He made the point about credit for ending that war about 40, 50 times, till Indians were so bored with his claims we stopped counting.

So is this about Trump's ego being bruised or is it about trade? You've got to ask that question.

Well it could be a bit of both, couldn't it? Let me bring Gordon Chang back in here.

Yeah but who is Trump to punish India?

Like who is Trump?

Well you know I just think that when people say punish and so on, what Trump is doing is what he always does. Everything to him is a deal. He's a very transactional human being in his own life, in his professional life, as a politician, as a business guy, when he was selling real estate to now running this tariff war. And you know, I've always said to people that you can massively overreact to Trump.

You can underreact to him, too. A lot of people overreact to Trump rather than focusing on what's actually happening in real time rather than what comes out of his mouth. A lot of it is just negotiating.

And it wouldn't surprise me at all if the next image we see is Prime Minister Modi and Trump laughing and joking and hugging each other and the 50 odd percent tariff coming crashing down again. Would it surprise you, Parker? Today's show is brought to you by Oxford Natural, makers of the Optimum Day and Optimum Night, all natural supplements.

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You know what, the fact that Modi is in China after seven years, despite some serious misgivings in India about China's support to Pakistan, tells you that diplomacy is the art of the possible. So no, it would not surprise me, except there's one problem that pairs with your theory. There's enough reporting, enough sources in both countries that suggest that a phone call between Modi and Trump went particularly badly on the 17th of June.

Trump wanted Modi to come to Washington on the same day that Pakistan's army chief was The Indian prime minister said no, as any Indian prime minister would. Trump wanted a certain amount of credit for his role as he assigns himself that role. Modi said there's no room for mediation in these military conflicts. And that conversation went south. The problem is not to take away from the deep bipartisan support for a good India-America

relationship, and it has been there in both countries. The problem is somebody needs to come up with a way to break the impasse. And that route is not visible. Had he walked away with the success from his Alaska summit, maybe he'd have no context to impose a penalty for buying Russian oil anymore. But he's failed on that as of now.

And so things are kind of stuck. But yes, in the long run, it's all possible.

And General Kimmy, let's talk just quickly about Ukraine here and repercussions for what's going on there with the war. A, do you see any immediate repercussions from what we're seeing with this new world order gathering

for Ukraine? I mean, answer that question first. Do you think there's any significance to this

if you're Ukraine in this scenario? No, I think right now Ukraine is a bit of a one-off in the sense that that is a European conflict. It goes back to the days of NATO. We can argue all day the problem. And I think we're starting to get in a position where there's some proposals out there that might bring this thing at least to a ceasefire and who knows, perhaps a frozen conflict, although abhorrable, will at least be shorter than the Kashmir problem that Pakistan and India have been unable to solve for years and years.

And out of interest...

So the fact remains is I don't think that there's anything that...

How much credit out of interest, General Kimmick, do you give Donald Trump for resolving the recent flare-up between India and Pakistan?

Well first of all I think what Donald Trump is trying to do is notch up his rhetoric with some numbers. He now is walking around saying he is the guy that stopped seven conflicts, and now he's going to try to do that as he did in Azerbaijan and Armenia. He's going to try to do that and try to take credit for that in the recent flare-up between Pakistan and India. Now again, you are exactly right.

Those that know how to talk to Donald Trump know that the answer is not to say to him, no, you had nothing to do with it, as Modi did. But on the same time, when Field Marshal Mounir goes, Mr. President, if it wasn't for your intervention, the war would still be going on. Look, that's no way to run foreign policy. But the fact remains is, as you said,

Donald Trump is a businessman. He not only conducts his foreign policy transactionally, but he also conducts his foreign policy and his domestic policy personally. Now, whether that's right or wrong, I think most people would prefer that's not the way that America is seen around the world.

But he's the man that America elected. And unless he's either forced out of office or elected out of office, I think we're going to see more of that. Because I don't see Donald Trump changing any time soon. Perhaps Gordon Chang may feel differently about that.

No one ever wants to argue against Gordon Chang, but that's the way I see it.

Well, let's get an argument with Gordon Chang. Gordon?

Well, I think the important thing here is that we need to put Donald Trump in context. Yes, he's transactional. Yes, he's very personal. And I don't like that. But on the other hand, I think he has some long-term goals. So for instance, with China and certainly with Russia, I think he's giving both Moscow

and Beijing off-ramps, because he's trying to settle these things with a minimum loss of life. And that's an important thing. Trump has a generous streak in him because he is a business person and he doesn't see the geopolitical aspects of this. But at some point, I think you will see Trump start to actually impose severe costs on both

Moscow and Beijing, and we very well may see some good results here. The thing about Trump is that he's actually been very successful. You know China 14 months ago looked like it was going to take over the Middle East. Trump in May does that three-nation tour and the nation and the region has changed. We saw this with Thailand and Cambodia recently, where Trump was able to stop a conflict,

which was very close to China, and China had almost no role. China did have, Trump did have some role in India, Pakistan, maybe not as great as he thinks, but we are seeing Trump change the world. For all the talk in China about how they are dominant,

Trump is changing the world. And one more thing, Tiers, on trade, which you talked about, with these trade deals, especially with the ones with the EU and the one in Britain in May, Trump is redirecting trade away from China. And that is important because China right now

is extraordinarily trade dependent, probably more so than it's been in this communist period. And so Trump is doing a number on China right now at a time when China is actually quite fragile. So, you know, maybe Trump fails, but let's give him a little bit more time

because I think we're going to see some of these initiatives actually work out as Trump strides to start to impose those costs on others, which he needs to do.

Yeah. You know, it's very interesting you mentioned the Middle East today, because I've been to Middle East a lot this year. I went to Saudi Arabia for the first time back in February. I was at the Emir of Qatar state dinner for Trump in Doha. I went to Dubai.

There is a real dynamism in the Middle East there, in those countries in particular, which Trump has tapped into. And Trump's speech, I felt, in Riyadh, just before he went to Qatar on that week-long trip, was really significant.

I don't think he got any enough credit for that. He was like, you know, we spent years, you know, the sort of neocons bombing the hell out of the Middle East. And actually, what these countries want to do now, they want to drive out to us. They want to give us their stuff.

They want to be creators and be dynamic. And that's what they're doing. And we should let them do that. We should encourage them and work with them. And I thought that was a very significant speech by an American president. I also think you touched on there about his aversion to war. I don't think Trump gets nearly enough credit for that.

And it's not to say Trump is a perfect human being. He's not. He's very flawed in many ways. But for a Republican American president in modern times to be so clearly against warfare because he believes, A, it's a terrible loss of life, that B, it's

a terrible waste of money, that B, it's a terrible waste of money, and that C, America has its own problems that needs to sort out without having wars all over the place. Personally, I find that very refreshing. I compare that with the rhetoric of someone

like George W. Bush, for example, and it's chalk and cheese. I oppose the Iraq war and I said it's a daily mirror. And I think I was vindicated with that. So I just think that Trump, because of his personality, you talk about him being transactional and wanting these relationships as being an issue. I kind of like it. And maybe I'm being naive and maybe it will all blow up in his face. But if ultimately the

end of this Trump somehow barrels his way to peace between Ukraine and Russia, peace ending the terrible Israel-Hamas war, which has reached this awful quagmire too. If he could manage to do that, then I'd give him a Nobel Peace Prize. And if on the trade front, America ends up with better trade relations with most of its trading partners, and they haven't all fallen out and they're all meeting for nice little you know whatever he has Big Mac and a nice Coca-Cola to celebrate well you know yeah okay I'll put up with a bit of

rough-and-tumble along the way now Gouffin am I being naive? No not at all because we do see in Trump these themes, and these themes are important ones. So when we talk about – you talked about the Middle East. Syria, he has turned Syria around. This is unbelievable. And this is Trump at his best.

Trump understood that American sanctions on Syria were based on Assad. Assad was gone. And so he says, I'm giving Syria a chance to join the international community. This is really important. And this is a theme that we are going to see.

The other thing, Piers, is that Trump is willing to use American power, and he does it in small doses. So for instance, he killed Soleimani, he put Iran back in the box, and we see with the targeting of this Venezuelan drug boat, I think we're going to see a better Maduro in the future.

Now I could be wrong, but the point is with these pinpricks of force, he has been able to move the world in better directions. And that's another theme that we don't give him credit for.

Yeah.

Can I respond to that a little bit, Piers?

Because... Yeah, sure. Then I want to bring in Cyrus. But Dave, yeah, go on.

Yeah, I mean, look, I liked some of the stuff you were saying there at the beginning, and I do think that speech was one of the best speeches of Trump's life. And I do I do love that Donald Trump does at least seem to think about the human cost of war. It kind of exposes what monsters some of these other leaders

are that doesn't seem to come up. And Dave, on that point, I have literally had a phone conversation with Donald Trump several times now this year, where he has talked really powerfully about Ukraine and the loss of life on both sides,

comparing it to the First World War, Flanders, these terrible scenes of open fields, thousands being gunned down on a weekly basis. He feels this is, I've never heard him talk like that about human life.

So it's a real thing. It isn't the same in public. I agree and that's an interesting element to it. But look, as I've said on your show before, ever since Barack Obama won a Nobel Peace Prize, they just mean absolutely nothing. I mean, if the guy who escalated the war in Afghanistan launched a war in Libya, launched

a covert war in Syria, launched a back the Saudis invading Yemen, and continued the war in Somalia, his whole presidency, if that guy can get a peace prize, it's just ridiculous. But I'm sorry, nobody should get a Nobel Peace Prize if they're backing the genocide, completely facilitating the genocide of the Palestinian people. It's an outrage that we'd even discuss that. And to say that Syria is in a better place now, as a New Yorker and as an American, I just find it so unbelievably offensive that we would say having the Amir of Al-Qaeda running the country is somehow an improvement

over a secular dictator who wore a suit and shaved his chin every morning. I think it's just absolutely outrageous.

Hang on, hang on, hang on. On that point, I mean, Assad was a lot worse than that characterization. Assad was an absolute monster. He was an absolute monster. So I think it's an arguable point whether the people of Syria are in a better or worse place now. I think it's very arguable, and Trump has made this calculation, that actually they are better off investing some time and effort and hope with this guy who seems to be a changed guy, seems to be more moderate now in his outlook. Now, again, Trump might be wrong, but is he ever seems to be a changed guy, seems to be more moderate now in his outlook.

Now again, Trump might be wrong, but is he ever going to be worse than Assad was to the Syrian people? I find that hard to believe.

Yeah, well I think, Pierce, I'm going to send you a couple books to read on this, but it was the CIA who started that civil war in Syria. And I'm not saying Assad didn't fight it brutally, but this was a policy of the Obama administration up to committing literal treason by sending weapons to Al Qaeda and ISIS knowingly. So I mean, we could do this on another show, but no, I don't think that this was a wise policy or an improvement, and it absolutely destroyed that country, led to hundreds and

hundreds of thousands of people dying in Syria. And look, our mutual friend, Patrick Bette David, just had Benjamin Netanyahu on the other day. And what was he saying? Oh, what a success the 12-day war was and that's over. No, he was saying Iran's still working on nuclear weapons

and intercontinental ballistic missiles and they could hit Florida. And so we're at halftime of that thing in Iran. And so I'm just, I do, I like the fact that Donald Trump actually seems to be moved by babies dying, not enough so that he'll stop sending Benjamin Netanyahu money and weapons, but it's nice that that's at least a thought there.

But I'm sorry, I think the idea of talking about Nobel Peace Prizes or praising him for what he's done in Iran or Syria or Gaza is ridiculous. And they're all disasters that America doesn't have to be involved in. They're all wars and conflicts of choice. None of these countries pose a threat to the United States of America.

This is, I think when books are written by historians, decades and centuries from now, this will be viewed as a time of just war hysteria where the American people committed suicide, fighting war after war after war for no reason. Then look, all of these countries that you just showed at the beginning there, why is

it that they're all uniting together? It's because DC is a war-hungry, psychotic organization. I mean, Kim Jong-un is only there because Kim Jong-un was put on the list.

Oh, hang on there.

Come on.

Ugh. there because Kim Jong-un was put on the list. Oh, hang on there. Come on. No, you know, Putin and Xi Jinping and Kim Jong-un were always seeing the world in the same terms. They viewed their interests in the same ways. They identified the same enemy, which was the United States, even though we didn't think that way.

So no, Trump didn't push them together and Biden didn't push them together.

They were together from the get go. When did we not think that way? Trump didn't push them together, and Biden didn't push them together. I didn't say Trump pushed them together.

They were together from the get-go.

George W. Bush. George W. Bush pushed them together. Yes, he did. What do you mean? When was this period where we didn't see any of them as enemies? When we put North Korea on the axis of evil, even though they had absolutely nothing to

do with 9-11? Was that us reaching out an olive branch to them? No, of course it wasn't. But North Korea has from the very beginning identified the United States as its enemy. And it's actually killed some Americans, like 36,000 of them during the Korean War. So, you know, if we want to start talking about that. But the period here, though, is that Putin and Xi Jinping, which is really the important story, were together from the very beginning

because they identified the world in a very different way. They calculated their interests in a very different way. And it's not Biden pushing them together, it's not Trump pushing them together or previous presidents. This is the way the world was and we refuse to acknowledge it. I also think...

It's absolutely removed from reality to say that Joe Biden did not push that relationship closer together.

I would have two observations, Dave, about what you said. One is, I believe I'm right in saying, and General Kimmett may correct me, I believe I'm right in saying that there are fewer wars today raging in the world than there have ever been in recorded history. So this concept that somehow this is the war era that we're living through, actually, the planet's

always been pretty full of war. And secondly, I think there's a naivety, Dave, and I say this with great respect, because I love you, as you know. But there's this idea that none of these foreign conflicts at all have any impact on American security. I think that's for the birds. I think there are many people around the world who are fundamentalist in their view, who view America

as the epitome of Western evil, who would, if they were allowed to walk around unchallenged, would do very bad things to America and Americans. So I just don't think it's possible.

I'm not making the claim, but I'm not making the claim that this doesn't affect American security. I think American security is greatly degraded by the war on terrorism. And look, Pierce, yes, there've been horrible times before.

We fought two world wars in the 20th century. I'm not saying there haven't been periods of greater war, but in the last 25 years, the United States of America has fought aggressive wars of choice against Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Somalia, Yemen. There was the drone bombing campaign in Pakistan. There was, of course, the Libya war spilled into Niger, and we were working with the Ethiopians and all this.

And every last one of these conflicts, which has cost the American taxpayer $8 trillion, has led to 30,000 of our bravest young men blowing their brains out, and has led to millions and millions of innocent civilians killed, were all done to countries that posed no threat to us. If you want to argue that Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany or Joseph Stalin's communist Russia or something like that posed a threat to us, fine. But come on, Pierce, the Houthis in Yemen, or were they going to overthrow the United

States of America? Now, I'm not saying that none of these people are bad actors or there couldn't be acts of terrorism. In fact, I would argue that most of that terrorism is blowback that is caused by our foreign policy or at least contributed to by our foreign policy. But let's get real here. These aren't nations that threaten the United States of America and there was no need for

us to fight wars against any of them.

General Kimmett, I think, I'm sorry, I haven't forgotten you. I'm going to come to you in a moment and let you have a proper

Contribution here, but general Kim it your response to what Dave Smith just said

Well, I think there's a little bit of truth to what Dave says But I think when you start putting things in the wrong context, you might come up with the wrong conclusions He is right that these nations such as Yemen do not pose a threat to the United States. But these are nations that provide sanctuary and safe haven to transnational threats, such as al-Qaeda and ISIS and others, who, as you would say- But I thought we're supporting al-Qaeda now. I'm not sure we are, but that's an assertion.

But I think the more important argument, as we flare off into litigating the last 25 years, in the current situation, it has to be recognized that no American soldiers were killed during Donald Trump's first administration, and there have been none killed in his second administration. And that, to Donald Trump, is the only metric that matters. How many American soldiers, sons and daughters, you're putting into the grave.

And that's what drives, in many ways, this war policy that you have indicted the entire America for policy for the last 25 years. And that's where you have Donald Trump, who, like you, completely rejects these wars of choice, these optional wars against nations

versus transnational threats. No American soldiers have been killed.

And that's all that matters to Donald Trump. Yeah, I think that's very well worth pointing out. Cyrus, let me come to you. You've heard a lot of opinion here. At the core of this, you've got the two superpowers. You've got the United States of America. You've got China. They are both huge superpowers.

Historically, America has been number one. It's very arguable now that that is still the case. We may not know the full extent of China's power, but you know China well. What do you think China's actual aspiration is for the world?

It's a great question, Piers, and I think it's very simple when you look at how China has transformed over the last 40 years. I mean, let's not forget that over 800 million people in China have been lifted out of poverty into the middle class. I think when you go to China and you spend time there, Piers, you know this firsthand, You made an amazing documentary of your time in Shanghai.

Honestly, on that point, on that point, so I went to Shanghai for three weeks and I was amazed. It was nothing, in a way, I haven't been as amazed until I went to Riyadh and discovered how different that was to the preconceived perception I've been led to believe it was like.

But yeah, I was stunned by China, actually. It will, let me put it this way. I was stunned by what I found in Shanghai, which is not the wider China.

Fair enough. But what's interesting, you know, I mean, you went to Shanghai, which is the most cosmopolitan, most advanced modern society, you know, in China, the biggest city, but it go to the fifth tier, sixth tier cities, go to villages that have been transformed over the last 20 years, you'll be able to see continuous progress throughout all of China, from the big cities down to the small cities. There was a 10-year Harvard Business Review where they actually polled Chinese citizens

and actually wanted to see the level of support for the government. But when you go down to these rural areas, these villages, this is where you find the biggest amount of support for China's government because they see the tangible results. I think to answer the key point of your question is, what is China's vision for the world? What does China want to achieve?

The first thing is, is they have to take care of 1.4 billion people. Right along with India, China has one of the most populous nations in the world. It has a tremendous amount of responsibility. Yes, there's economic downturn right now,

real estate crisis. I mean, it's not all, you know, roses over there in China, but they're learning to deal with that. They're adapting, they're changing strategies. Again, they're moving forward, renewable energy, things that are completely transforming the future of our entire world. When you look at the global South, and this is why the BRICS organization and the global South is thriving right now, and why there's so much momentum in this movement because a lot of people around the world, and again, you have to remove yourself from this Western media bubble

and people that wanna fear monger about China and preach to you that, oh, China wants, China hates America, China wants to take down America. That couldn't be further from the truth. Chinese people, when you go there and connect with them, they wanna do business with America.

Chinese has always been welcome to American business. And the simple fact is, is that I think China wants to have a multipolar world. They're never gonna say, hey, we don't want you to work with America. We don't want you to work with the United States. In reality, China has been very appreciative of America. They've been recognizing, hey, look, you're a superpower.

We're a superpower. Why don't we, if you're a developing country in Africa, why don't you do business with both of us? We're not saying that you should only do business with China, but unfortunately that is not the same case for the United States, which we continually go to Africa and we don't provide any investment, we don't provide any tangible benefits.

We simply say you should not be doing business with China because they're not a democracy like we are. But yet, look at the state of democracy in the United States. The vast majority of Americans would not agree that we are a democracy right now. So again, it's looking into that mirror and looking at how we can improve ourselves. This is what China is doing. They're looking at how can they improve, how can they advance,

and how can they take care of their society. The stark contrast between the two is you have a government that is looking forward, looking, taking care of their society. I couldn't agree more with what Dave's analysis today. Spot on. There's been so many wars, so many conflicts, so many trillions of U.S. dollars that has been wasted for the American public. This is the biggest problem. And so, and again, what I see right now is a big problem. I'm a U.S. citizen. I'm a proud American. I love my country. But I see us being isolated on

the world stage because of the actions of Donald Trump. And I've never seen America's reputation amongst the world, you know, at the lowest point it is right now. Piers, you're a European, you understand this, go to Europe. What is Americans' perception in Europe right now? Go to Canada, go to Asia.

People perceive America completely differently. I actually think it's more complicated, because I mean, take my country, the UK. Well, I'm in London at the moment. A lot of people this time round with Trump, they've kind of got to know him, they know how he operates, they actually find him quite entertaining. They find him less scary, because they think a lot of it is just noise. And I would say he's

more popular here than he was certainly first time round. His trip to Scotland recently was marked very noticeable, very few protests. Last time there were loads of protests everywhere. I suspect when his state visit comes to the UK in three weeks, we'll probably see a few protests, but it won't be the same. A bit like in Manhattan a week before the election, when I went to his rally there, first one I'd ever been to,

and there was no protest. You know, so the liberal world in New York just couldn't be bothered to turn out to protest against someone they kept calling the new Hitler. So I do think that with Trump, hysteria is always a mistake with him.

I think he uses that as fuel. But I also think he's not perfect. And he throws things up in the air, and he sees what happens. And he seizes on things that he thinks work. And he can be quite, you be quite along the way chaotic. I wanna leave the last word to Barkha

as the lady of the panel. And it's this, would you rather be mates with America or China?

Look, I think India was leaning towards the United States of America quite clearly without being an ally. And that would be where the natural affinity would have lain because of a shared sort of set of democratic values,

but also because globalization equals westernization for large sections of the Indian elite or middle class. You know, I myself studied and grew up in New York. So, and then many, many sort of people like me. But that said, Piers, despite my skepticism about China,

despite my natural affinity with America as a nation state, I think my sense of pride and self-respect as an Indian is offended by any country and any leader assuming that it has the right to tell me and my country what to do, how to conduct ourselves, and so on. And I think what Americans are not getting about the Indian response is this.

For us, this is not about tariffs and trade, and you can have a whole argument about this. For us, this is about sovereignty. We are still emerging from our history, you know, with the British. We are still emerging from our history with the British. We're still emerging from our history with the empire. We're a new nation that had to fight for our autonomy, our independence. And I think for India, it is about that.

I just want to make one quick last point. I don't know, we didn't mention that the Americans are actually taking a 10 percent markup on weapons that they're now selling to Europe that are then being sent to Kiev. For Trump, everything is about business, so let's not pretend that this has a lot to do with morality and ideology. Point one.

Point two, unless Trump can cut a deal with the Chinese, and it's possible, anything is possible, the old American calculation that India was somehow going to be the countervailing force to the rise and rise of China in the Indo-Pacific, Trump has challenged and upended American calculations there. Forget what we're thinking.

And somebody's got to think about whether that's smart.

OK, I think that's a very good point to end on, because we don't know the answer yet, and we shall see. My guess is Trump will do a deal with India and there'll be all smiles at the end of all this but I might be completely wrong. Thank you. Excellent panel, excellent debate, much appreciated. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me.

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