Dark Reality of Army: Fake Cases, Punishments, Divorces & Pension | Maj Kavish | FO430Raj Shamani

What are the privileges of an army officer? Whether I'm a serving officer or I'm a retired guy, I have no privileges of any kind. All these men and ministers get a lot of privileges.

Army vs Police. Who's more powerful?

Police?

The army has no power. The most unarmed person is the one who has the weapon.

In this country.

Because he can't use that weapon.

There's no freedom. There's no independence. In today's episode, we have Major Kavish Agrawal Advocate, Supreme Court and former JAG officer, Indian Army who has set a new standard of discipline, courage and leadership in his journey. We will also discuss the rules of court-martial and resignation and the real experiences of the army, which will be eye-opening for everyone. What is a court-martial?

A court-martial is a military court. If you are going from the field area, you are subject to death penalty.

Why can't the army resign?

If the army resigns, the security of the country is at risk. People don't know what kind of rigorous life army people are leading. And Indian military training is no less rigorous than any country.

Can a senior do something illegal while a junior is being ordered?

Bullying? Sometimes it's harassment. He's not allowed to go on leave.

Why are there more divorces in the army?

You're staying away from your family for half the time. Serving in the army, is it supposed to be a punishment? If a soldier goes beyond the border, why can't we bring him back? There are some missions where we secretly send them. And if they get caught, we tell them beforehand that we won't catch them. You can go if you want.

How much is a soldier's salary? As a major with 10 years of service, my salary was Rs. 80,400. Plus 42,000 something DNS allowance plus 15,500 on military service. What is the darkest reality that civilians don't know about army soldiers?

Hahaha

Before moving ahead, subscribe to this channel so that we we can make more insightful and better podcasts for you. And the audio experience of this show is available on Spotify where you can follow us.

Enjoy the show.

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You said that you used to live in Karol Bagh. And I have a very core memory of Karol Bagh with the army. Which I saw for the first time. There was a lot of traffic there. Dangerous.

Proper market area.

There was a Swift Desire in the middle, which was written Army. Okay. Two people parked in the middle of the road and left. Okay. After getting down. And I ask my uncle that what is this?

And because of that, the traffic was getting jammed. And there were cops standing in front. They didn't stop, didn't ask anything. The guy got down, he went to do his work. Where did he go? And I ask my uncle, no, army people don't have any rules.

They can put anything anywhere. Is it true? No, it is not true. First of all, the army sticker is not allowed to be put.

So how many cars are registered as Army?

See, it is not allowed and we will not do it. There is a big gap in this. Okay. There are so many things. But see, actually, if there is a judge, he puts a sticker of a judge on his car.

What is the aim? To get some privilege. Or the police stop less. If there is a lawyer, he he moves ahead of the advocate. So, the idea is to get some kind of a privilege or advantage out of it. Nobody will unnecessarily fight with the army for that. But there are policies.

It is the army's policy. You cannot put that on your car.

So, it is illegal?

See, I mean...

It is not illegal, but it is prohibited. It is prohibited. Illegal has a different connotation as per Indian Penal Code. Illegal is something if you do it, you will be prosecuted. If you put it on the car, then I think no one will be court-martialed. But it is possible. Because it is a policy that you don't have to put it.

This is not allowed. You cannot use this. It is just a cover. Now you see them, they don't get any other privilege. If you see the army people practically, when they go to the civil street, what privilege you get within campus is a different matter. But now if I have come here, Mumbai, whether I am a serving officer or I am a retired guy,

I have no privileges of any kind. Like you don't get train tickets tickets are not available, flight tickets are not available. All these Babus and Ministers get a lot of privileges. But they don't get any privileges. So, this small thing, they are trying to utilize it. Which is not encouraged.

But can they put it in the middle of the road? It is obviously wrong.

But what are the privileges of the army? Because, I will tell you another case Because I will tell you another case. I will tell you another case of Indore. You must have heard. Very popular case.

This is as per news. Okay. Two army people were sitting in the car. I think they were drinking. Or not in the car, I don't know where. I think they were drinking in the prohibited area.

And maybe they had a fight with the police. Or they had a fight. And the police was arguing with the people, or they were fighting, I don't remember. The police shouted at them, did something. And then what happened, nobody knows. It turns out that 100 army men come at night, on bikes and full of people. The whole police station, Vijaynagar police station is destroyed.

So can they do this? They don't believe in the police, they do anything for the police. See, can they do it or not? Again, I will say, there is a big gap in this. But I think it is very right. I will fully support it.

What?

Breaking and breaking. If the police has done any misbehavior, See, armed forces, you cannot trifle with the armed forces. One. The person of the armed forces, wherever he is, not because I am in the armed forces, wherever he is, not because I have been in the armed forces, it is very important to give him 100% respect. Why? I will tell you the reason.

They are undergoing tremendous sacrifices which any civilian cannot imagine. Unless you have seen that life closely. Your father, mother, brother, with whom you are living, they were in the army, if you have't seen them, you don't know anything. They sacrifice a lot. Police people misbehave, so nothing.

Now, 10-12 days ago, 13th March, they have manhandled Colonel Pushpendra Singh, serving colonel. Before that, one, it's 1-1.5 years old, one, with the fiance of the serving captain, almost rape type a half ago, a police officer attempted to rape the serving captain's fiance.

This was in a very popular news. Police can do anything. Now the issue is that police has all the powers. See, you have to understand, army does not have powers of this kind. I am not supporting illegality. I am not saying that you are a criminal.

This is illegal. I am not saying that you are a terrorist. This is illegal. I mean, 100 people... Whatever they did is legal. I don't know about the case. I am asking you. If two people, if two police officers...

First, they say that the police officers did the right thing.

Okay.

Let's just assume that the police officers were disrespectful. And they must have done something wrong, which we don't know. Because we were not there. Neither does anyone know the reality case and can make any case. So, they did the same thing among themselves. The whole police station doesn't need to go and beat up 100 people. Do you think that's right?

See, it is not about being right or wrong in my opinion.

It is about what is appropriate. They were running and beating. Their clips went viral where police were running on the road.

And army men were running with sticks and beating them. I mean, always army men are beaten. No, someone beat the army men. Army men are getting beaten daily. You see. See, I can tell you confidently,

Army officers or army jawans, if they are not misbehaved, they will never raise their hands. They are very disciplined. They are a million times better than the police. I am telling you honestly. You must have seen, I criticize many policies of the army.

People are after me, me why I am criticizing. Because if a policy is wrong, I will say it is 100% wrong. But why should the army always make all the sacrifices? Randomly you take 1 lakh people and randomly you take someone else. It is impossible. You can't get such data. But I am saying with guarantee that the discipline, conduct, punctuality, behavior, mannerisms, attitude of the army or the navy is a lot better than this.

You can choose anyone. Anyone you pick and choose. Now, the police must have misbehaved with them. I am telling you confidently because my time, that's why I asked you, which year is it? Because some of our course mates also had a fight with the police. They also went to the police station and beat them up. And they should definitely do it.

In fact, this is the need of the hour, I would say. Wow! This is very much the need of the hour. Because nowadays, it is a case of Bhuvaneshwar. The police have misbehaved so much with the fiance of that captain. She was almost, she was molested by multiple policemen and she was almost raped.

The commanding officer there, the hierarchy there, why don't they take any action? My problem is, because the army does not release the statement officially. What should be done in such cases? Through proper channel, projected right up to the Ministry of Defence. Let the Ministry of Defence, let the Chief of Army Staff, Navy Staff, Air Force Staff. Let them take up a case with the Prime Minister of India from my side.

With the Home Minister. They don't do that. So what should be done at the local level? Go and beat the police. Why not? I mean, our soldiers keep getting beaten. Our officers keep getting beaten. I mean, the man is a soldier. He is sacrificing everything. Why should he do it? He is sacrificing so much already. He is sacrificing his family life.

He is sacrificing his girlfriend and boyfriend. His wife and children are alone in the village. He is serving somewhere far. Old parents are lying somewhere.

How many times does it happen that someone's... that you have had a childbirth, you are at that time and then you are not able to see your son for the next six months. I agree that this is a big mismatch. Okay. There is a legal imbalance, there are a lot of sacrifices. Nobody is talking about it. The army sacrifices, I think the whole country respects a lot. No. Many people don't respect. I would agree that majority civilians respect.

Majority do, yes. Majority civilians. We all, any random person, from office, ask anyone, say anything, there is a massive respect. Means, if he is a soldier or an officer at a very junior level, it doesn't matter. Everybody has a massive respect, right? So, he is not talking about that.

The thing is that brutality is not an answer.

See, it is not an answer. It is your call. Either you remain a victim. Okay. Similarly, any kind of aggression was not an answer.

But it is your decision. That for 10, 20, 25 years, you first put one cheek forward, then the other cheek forward. Then kick, punch, punch, eat everything. for 20 years, 25 years, you have done one thing, then you have done another thing, then you have done everything, and you are not getting any redressal. Okay. The second thing is, I mean, now there are legal principles in this.

The second thing is, the theories of punishment that are taught to us in the law, there is a retributive theory. Whoever did it, he should be punished accordingly. See, you want to wait for 10, 20, 50 years and undergo all that pain. You will get justice. You will get justice. After 20 years, you got that police officer jailed.

You prosecuted him. You got justice. Will it be a pleasant process for you? Where are you coming from to give testimony, you are spending lakhs of rupees on lawyers, you are sacrificing your personal life, you have been transferred to another place,

your commanding officer will keep asking you, what did you do there, why did you do it, now why do you have to go there. I mean, you take all the inconvenience on yourself or you settle there a little. You settle there a little.

Tell me army vs police. Who is more powerful?

Police, obviously. Army has no power. Army has no power at all.

Compare it with 2-3 parameters.

Take any parameter. Army, the most unarmed person is the one who has the weapon. In this country. I will explain. Because he cannot use that weapon. Except for when he sees a terrorist or when he sees an obviously a terrorist activity.

Or when there is no rioting. Supreme Court's order is that if you are in a counterinsurgency area, counterterrorism area or you are going for an operation and you see that person 200 meters away, who you think is a terrorist. See, I am not a terrorist, I have never done any operation. I was a JAG officer, a lawyer. So the guy who is going for the operation, he is a specialist.

He is seeing from 200 meters away, he feels that this guy is most likely a terrorist. And I should shoot him right now, otherwise he will shoot me. Okay, now again that conflict of opinions is there. I would prefer to be shot or I want to shoot him. Now, the guidelines of the Supreme Court are that first you ascertain whether that person is a terrorist or not. With all due respect to our Supreme Court, I am practicing in the Supreme Court. Now, I am criticizing

this order of the Supreme Court. Okay? So, the Supreme Court is saying that first you ascertain whether that person is a terrorist or not. After that, if you give him a warning. That brother, you drop your weapon or you run away otherwise I will shoot you. He will shoot me this much.

100%

Even after giving a warning, if he is not running away, then shoot him under the knee. So that he does not die. See, it is army. It is not a game of kids. We have a very simple concept. One bullet, one enemy. I don't want to waste a bullet on him. It's not that I die in 2-3 bullets. I want to hit him in the head or in the chest. I want to kill him there.

This is the concept. So, I am saying that the army is being castrated so much. So much power has been snatched from them. They cannot use that weapon. In field area, it is fine. In operations, it is fine. But if you are in peace area, you were half afraid of the fact that if we fire that bullet,

it is necessary to collect the bullet's casing. The round's casing has to be collected, it has to be calculated, it has to be deposited. That is the tension in peace area. That the bullet should not get lost. If he gets lost, then a separate court of inquiry will be done for him. But why should we fire in the peace area? You are given weapons.

So, it is not for firing, but to fight the enemies.

That is what I am saying. No, we will fight the enemies by firing bullets.

But it will not be in the peace area, usually.

Now I will tell you that that is why I am saying you cannot use that weapon freely. And weapon is not supposed to be used freely. But as I told you, where there is stone fighting, there also you will see that they stand with shield. They cannot fire. They cannot even fire in self-defense. A few years ago, thousands of FIRs were filed against stone pelters. All of them were expelled by way of an administrative order.

See, if you are the victim of an, you are the complainant or you are the victim of an FIR, you are the complainant or you are the victim. Where an FIR has been filed. So, you have the right to withdraw that FIR. To make your points politically, to gain brownie points, to make your number, if you are withdrawing those FIRs, then it is not doing justice. So, the soldiers are powerless everywhere.

But...

Everywhere.

But it happens that

the army can't complain about its own people in the police station. Of course, it can. There are complaints against them in the police station every day. There are false complaints against them. We get complaints from them every day. So, can you complain about an army officer in a normal police station?

Absolutely.

Because they have some army...

There is no protection. Protection is for a very limited thing. Protection. But state police are not responsible for answering. Army is central, right? Is that some...

There is some concept around it.

No, police is of the state only. There is no central police. No, isn't the army's own system? No. It's the same. There is no separate policing system. So why does this happen? Usually, if army people together do anything

XYZ, then there is no complaint against them. There are. Who is telling you? Like parking the car on the road, killing someone, nothing happens. No, no, it's not like that. If someone has complained, definitely there will be an investigation.

Okay. The riot that you are telling about, definitely action must have been taken against them. There is no doubt about it.

If there was a group, then maybe it would have stopped. It would not have affected so much.

Look, either informally or unofficially, they would have been expelled by talking to each other. The senior police officials of that area and the senior army officials, they compromised with each other. They said, do it roughly because we will be beaten from both sides. Both will be divided. Okay. I mean, why do we have to do unnecessary inquiry, investigation, etc.

Either do it by taking or by doing it roughly. So, if all the laws are the same, everything is the same, the army can also complain, then why does army vs police go a little hot? Because the police do it. Because...

What do police do? Police do aggression. I am telling you from the news reports. I have never heard of it. I am not saying that I have all the knowledge of the universe with my limited knowledge.

I am saying that you find me one such instance and show me that have police ever come to army campus or army men started, surrounded and killed them first. Not even one in Indian history.

Take out 200-300 years of history of Indian army. Never will you get it. I am 100% sure. I don't know. I haven't read all the history. I haven't read all the military history. Still, I can say with conviction that the army would have never started the war.

And what the police did, there must be many instances. The one you are telling that he has broken the police station there, definitely the police must have started it first. It is possible that they did something small, in return the army said that why should we tolerate them, we will beat them up. It is possible that they gave the answer to this heat was given by stone.

But they would not have started. I am telling you this with 100% confidence. Army officers, army soldiers are so disciplined, so good. Now I am talking about the overall figure. One or two will be rotten apples, definitely. One or two will be incorrigible.

One or two will people beyond economic repair. But overall, if you look at it, then what I was saying earlier, the people of the armed forces will be found to be in millions of degrees above them. Now this army vs police debate is only because these people do such and such things. Police officials. In the army, all the soldiers and officers, assume that the strength of the army is 10 lakhs.

From that, at any point of time, if there are 10 lakhs serving people, from that, at least 9 lakh people will not get any chance of corruption. Corruption in any sense, now some people will say that corruption is not just about taking money. No, you have no chance of corruption. And if they have a chance, they will not take it. So in the army, corruption is at least 90,

I am telling you a conservative percentage, at least 95-98% of the people have no chance of corruption. Army's structure is different from options. Give information. There must be something behind all this. There must be.

There must be options.

Look, I have not seen that life. I can't tell you. But I can tell you with guarantee. Funding will come. Funding will come. But now it will come,

the unit account of the senior officer of that unit, the commanding officer of that account, or the brigade commander, now suppose there is an account of a brigade, how many people are there to handle that account?

Two.

One is the brigade commander and the other is the deputy commander. Or maybe there is one or two more officers. And only those two officers have the opportunity to commit corruption. The 20 officers who officers under them, no officer can even smell that money. A captain or a major like us and the soldiers, they will not even know how much money has been received. From which account it has been received. They are not dealing directly.

Actually, there is no public dealing.

But can't they become an informer?

It is very difficult. It is very difficult. Who will take such a risk? We are taking our life in our hands. Becoming an informer is not easy. See, you try to become an informer. I have not lived such a lifestyle.

But I will tell you my common sense. Because I have handled court-martials. We have seen espionage cases also. Espionage is leaking information to terrorists, to insurgents, to Pakistanis. So, it's a very scary environment. Who will go and ask terrorists, how much money will they give?

First of all, how much money will that terrorist give? Also, it is one time. See, point is, it is fun to do corruption when it is pain free, when it is easy and when it is risk free. Where the risk is so high. If caught, there will be a court martial, court martial will be dismissal, there will be jail. 7 years of jail or 14 years of jail. These are very dangerous offenses according to the Indian Army Act. You are the same corruption. See, what is so good about the police? You are a constable. You are on a red light.

You will get money every day. It is easy. You won't get caught. Even if you get caught, nothing much will happen. Why? If the police get caught taking bribe,

why won't it happen?

While taking bribe, I mean... How many get caught while taking bribe? You tell from your experience. It's different if they are not caught. But if they are caught,

then they will face the same fate as the army.

No, it won't be the same. It won't be the same.

Why?

Court Marshals are very dangerous in the army. It will be the same in these people too. It happens in these people. There are disciplinary procedures everywhere.

Exactly. If someone gets caught doing corruption, from anywhere, then you are bound to get caught. Whether it is a civilian, police officer, administrative officer or your army officer, whoever it is, and whether it is 100 rupees corruption or 100 crores, whatever it is, price doesn't matter. What matters is if you are caught and genuinely know that there is corruption.

Genuinely you won't know, so easily. Practically speaking, you won to know that there is corruption. Genuinely, we won't get to know that easily. Practically speaking, we won't get to know that easily. Secondly, in their arrest, one out of hundred people would be caught. See, it is so easy. You stop a car, whether it is over speeding or not. Suppose, a person is over speeding.

You tell him to take out Rs.500. You take it in your pocket. Take it out from 10 people like this daily. First of all, Rs. 5000 for a day is good. Make Rs. 1.5 lakhs in a month. I am not saying that it should be this much.

It should be more or less. But it is easy to do. And it is difficult to be caught. In army, it is very difficult to do it. Becoming an informer is not an easy task. You have to do a lot of licensing, hide your mobile phone. First of all, when will you become an informer? You are sleeping in a barracks.

20 people are sleeping with you. If we talk about soldiers. Which mobile phone will he talk to? First of all, if his Pakistan number is calling from plus 92, he can't talk to the person who is calling from plus 92. If he is caught, he will be turned into a ghost in the army. When he calls him at such a time.

All the time in the army, you are always surrounded by army men. Almost, unless you are in the washroom. You are almost all the time with people, for the soldiers. Officers, yes, they have some privacy and seclusion. Soldiers don't get that chance. Now you have to type from one person, and something else from another.

How will you type that I will bring you a gun and give it to you from here to there? It is so difficult to execute. And how will he take the money from him? If he takes cash, he will definitely get caught. 100%.

That soldier has no space to keep those things. There is a trunk and he has put it under the bed. The space is double the space of my table where I have kept my feet. Suppose that person has double the space to keep his belongings. He has to keep all his belongings there. So where will he hide the cash? If he takes it in the account, it is very dangerous. Because if there is even a slight hint,

there is an inquiry, you have to give your statement of account in the inquiry. In that, it will be caught for sure. Where is that money coming from? First thing, executing is so difficult. If you do, it will take 100% of your time. You will be court-martialed, dismissed from the service, you will go to jail. You will be defamed in the society, you will not get a second job.

This is the end of the option. You are telling me more things. One is corruption. Police vs Army. What are the other differences? In terms of freedom. There is no freedom in the army. There is no independence.

Meaning?

Meaning, you can't go home. Half the freedom. You can't go home. Meaning, one soldier gets 90 days leave out of 365 days. Which is done in Agniweer scheme. in Agnipath scheme, it has been done for 30 days. Okay? It has been done for one third. So, how much morale will be down,

it is the matter of thinking about those who are in power, that do we want to fight with such an army whose morale is down? Okay? Or whose morale will be down day by day? That apart.

So, you, out of 365 days, 90 days are available for the holidays. Out of that, 90 days are available for the holidays. 60-65 days, 70 days are available for the holidays in a year. So, you are in that environment for at least 300 days. You are under the supervision of your seniors for 24 hours.

In that, whether it is Holi, Diwali, Sunday, Monday, Eid, Dussehra, it doesn't make a much difference for any soldier. Because he keeps doing almost the same duty. The only thing is that if it is Diwali, he will not wear a uniform. But who will work for the celebrations of the unit on Diwali? That soldier will do it.

Because we are not outsourcing any work. Not only on Diwali, but police officers also have duties. They are also setting have their own set up. But at least I have a hope in my heart that after all this mess, I will go home at last. I will spend Holi with my wife and children, with my old parents.

I have a chance to meet my relatives. Holi, Diwali, whatever it is. In the army, it is okay that many people go on leave. But 100% strength. Pakistan will obviously attack us at that time. So we have to be conscious of it. Now, some people in the army, in the peace areas, they are staying at their homes.

So they also go to their homes. But that is, if you take out the percentage of police, it is very less. God! In the uniformed forces, see, the police also have a hard time. Their duty is rigorous. In fact, the police duty of the police officers is also very tough. Because they have to deal with rowdy civilians, goons and goons. They are daily basis. There is no such difficulty in the army. In the peace area, you don't have to deal with the mobsters.

You are not normally in danger of life in the peace areas. Okay, if a senior scolds you or if you have a small problem, it's a different thing, but you don't have political pressure in the army. That is a very good thing. I mean, a normal soldier doesn't have any political pressure. I have never had any kind of political pressure. Some Babu called me, some influential person called me.

Never in my life. Yes, sometimes I get a little bit of influence from the army. But I am very less in the army. Babu, who do you call? IAS officers? Yes, with all due respect to them.

I have no objection to them. I mean, it is a term. It is a term for them. It is a derogatory term. It is going on since the time of the Britishers. Because at that time, their high handedness, their behavior was there. Many people had it. They must be good too. I am not saying this. But I am trying to say that

compared to the life which a soldier lives, these people have a very comfortable life. These people have a very easy life, very convenient life. But I also feel that whoever you call, they will tell that their life is difficult. Because they have not seen the life of the army. No, because a person is living his own life. You have not seen the life of the police, you have not seen the life of the IAS officer.

I am sure struggles are different. I agree. But I am saying that everyone who is doing it, lot, their life is difficult, there is no doubt about it. I don't want to compare, I am saying everyone will feel like this. Everyone will feel like this, but they are feeling wrong. An IAS officer, now I will remove the police officer's point, an IAS officer says that I have to resign, I will not come from tomorrow,

do whatever you want, what will anyone do about it? Nothing can be done to him. His worst-case scenario is that he will be fired. After some time, he will be fired after an inquiry. He will not be court-martialed.

What is court-martial?

It is military court. If you are a fugitive from the peace area, you are subject to rigorous imprisonment for 7 years. If you are a fugitive from the field area, if you have seen the border movie, Sunny Deol's, in that he was Mathura Das,

his wife has cancer, there is a war going on, if he goes home, the story of the movie is different, if you are going from the field area, even if there is no war, you are subject to death penalty. You will not get death penalty, or you can get it, but it is still applicable. If an IAS officer gets fired from anywhere, from wherever he wants to get fired.

If an IRS officer, IFS officer, any IFS officer of India is sitting in Australia. He has gone on a very important mission there. He gets fired from there. He says, go to hell country, I am not doing my work. I will settle here in Australia, right here. His country can't do anything. Maximum worst to worst, there will be an inquiry. That too to a great extent. And after that, there will be only simple removal from service.

He won't have to go to jail. We get calls every day. Sir, I don't feel like joining the army. There is a lot of trouble here. I have old parents at home. I have to take care of them. They are not well. I have to do higher education, either I want to go abroad or I want to earn more money. I don't want to do this job, should I run away? Should I become a beggar? We say, no, don't do this, it is illegal, it is wrong.

Go with respect, resign, we will make application for resignation, we will file a case in your court. Civilians don't have any problem, they can resign. Why can't an army officer resign? Because Army Rule 16C says that no officer shall have the right to resign his commission. He may put up an application for resignation but the decision taken by the central government will be final.

For officers, this is the case. So you have to file an application to the soldier. Not for the soldier, it is for the officer. There is no such thing as soldiers in the law. You can't put it. Until you get your pensionable service,

you have no right to ask for resignation, discharge, PMR, premature retirement.

How much is a pensionable service?

Means 20 years for an officer, 15 years for a soldier. Imagine.

For 15 years, I am an army soldier. And if I don't do service for 15 years, and before that, I have a voluntary wish that I have to resign. Sir, I can't do it. I will do something else. So, I can't do it.

You can't do it.

You have two options. Either you run away. What do you mean by run away? Run away. Disserter. This is your unit. Go on leave.

This is called over staying on leave. What you should not do is this. If you get the numbers of the Indian Army from somewhere, then see how many people are scammed. Because service conditions are so rigorous. They don't come back on duty.

You can check the numbers. How many are there in the police force? How many are there in the IAS, IJO, Civil and Mag? No one would have run away from them. Because their life is very chill. Comparatively. They can say that my duty is tough.

Because they don't know what is the duty of the army. Now this guy took a leave. He didn't return from the leave. He sat in his house for 2 years. So there can be a problem of jurisdiction. You are from Indore, your duty was in Chennai, you ran away from Chennai and are sitting in Indore.

But you were caught after 5 years in Kupwada. There you will be caught and your court-martial will be done. Wherever you will be caught, there you will be caught and court-martialed there. Wherever you are caught, you will be caught and court-martialed there. Civilians don't have this problem. Because they have a jurisdiction issue. It's very good, complicate the thing. I am caught in Kupwara. Now, this IS officer, with all due respect to IS officer or his staff,

I was deported from Chennai. from Chennai to Kupwara. My trial can only run in Chennai. It is very difficult to get that person transferred from Kupwara to Chennai. There is a lot of complication in that. State police will have to coordinate both of them. He will run somewhere else in the middle. He cannot be arrested there when in Kupwara. He will run away somewhere else after getting the information.

He will hide. It is not like that in the army. Life is not...

There is only one option to run away.

There is only one option to run away. The second one is to fight the court cases. Then if you fight the court case, first you write an application for resignation. He will take money from you. Your salary is very modest. Salary is less. It is difficult to afford a lawyer. First, the lawyer will take money from you. Then the army will close his eyes and reject the application.

99% applications are being rejected without application of mind. Why doesn't the government want to let people go? It is an English concept. We are black English. Theoretical concept is, if the army resigns, then the security of the country is in danger. See, this is a laughable idea.

A chief minister can resign, there can be riots in the country, a prime minister can resign, the resignation of the prime minister is also a resignation. Every government employee's resignation

is subjected to approval. Sanction. Now, let's say the Chief Minister is resigning. Someone will approve his resignation. The Governor or the Lieutenant Governor will approve it. If they are running away without approval,

then again, if they are running away, then also they will not get a court-martial. This is the first thing. Secondly, in their case, it is mostly approved. The Chief Minister, Prime Minister suddenly resigns. Hindu-Muslim riots cannot happen.

There can be no other type of riots. If, let's say, 100 people resign from an army, Pakistan will attack us suddenly. From the peace area, see blanket ban is on resignation. I am saying you modify it. You do this, we will not let you resign from the field area. If you are holding a crucial appointment, you are a commanding officer of a very important battalion in the peace area, you cannot resign from there. You are a very indispensable officer or soldier.

You can't resign from there. But I know that I am a very simple officer. There are 20 people to take my place, who are more competent than me. I am sitting in the Peace area. I have already been superseded.

I won't even get promoted now. Now let me resign. Because maybe there is a lot of expenditure on training. They don't have expenses. In Judiciary, if you have cracked Haryana Judicial Services, you became a judge there. You worked there for 1-2 years.

You have to come to Delhi. Because your wife is a judge in Delhi. You took Delhi exam after that. You became a judge in Delhi. The 1 year training you did in Haryana, that Haryana government's money was not wasted by Haryana government to train you.

Because Delhi government will again train you. Delhi judicial system. Only money was not spent by the army. Please, let us be honest about it. In the training of Army, Navy, Air Force, no extra money is being spent.

Okay, when we train, I trained in OTA Chennai. What was the money spent on me by the government? Rs. 21,000 per month stipend. The amount at that time. I had a bed. I had a room.

I had a room to myself which is a government property. So what rent will you accept for that room? I mean, the government has got it for free in the government land. Suppose 5000 rupees per month, suppose 10,000 rupees per month. You have given me meals, food, uniform, a little bit at that time. What have you given? You have made me run a little bit, the salary of the instructors.

If there are 250 cadets at one time, 50 instructors, then divide the salary of 50 instructors for these pro rata bases, 250 cadets at a time, 50 instructors, then divide the salary of 50 instructors for these pro rata bases, 250 cadets. I have done a little bit of firing. What did you spend on me? What is the...

Have you spent lakhs of rupees on me? Maybe 2-3 lakhs, 5 lakhs. Every government job has the same expenses. What is so special in this? I mean, if an IPS officer is resigning after 2-3 years, his setup might get disturbed.

There will not be such a setup in the army. So, this is not basic freedom, not basic rights in the army. Absolutely not. Fundamental right. Fundamental right. It is a fundamental right under article 19.1g of the constitution of India to practice any profession or to carry out any trade, occupation or business. This is its exact line, Article 19.1.G.

That independence is with everyone else or not with the uniformed forces to some extent. But in the armed forces or in the uniformed forces or in the police forces, the problem is that if you run away, then you be a separate court martial, which is not for civilians. There is another problem in this. When you are doing training, when you are doing army training, this is also illegal. If you are doing army training, then during training, I am telling for officers,

there is a different concept for soldiers, since the time their training training, they are in service. For officers, if they are training after 6 months, if that person is injured, then that person will be boarded out without disability pension. Due to the training of the army, he is injured, he will be dismissed without disability pension. But the training the one year training

During that, it is not guaranteed the job of the army or navy or air force. The job is not guaranteed because your training has not been completed successfully. You do not have a guaranteed job. But during that job, you can't even apply for any other job. So the first thing is that you do not have a guaranteed job. The training of that job is inherently risky.

You will get hurt in that job. There is a high possibility. And you can't even apply for another job. It is a very far thing to get selected. This also is in violation of article 191G of the constitution of India.

I don't think there is such a provision in any other government job. Maybe it will be in paramilitary forces or maybe it can be in police forces too, but again these civil services, IAS, IPS, IFS etc. are not included in this. When their training starts, they are considered that yes, you are already in job. They are considered as on the job training. Sorry, even in Navy you are considered to be on the job.

There are some different concepts in that. But in Army, let's say there is an IPS officer, on the training, like horse riding training, firing training, running training. If that person gets injured, he will be considered on the job. And he will get the disability pension law. And he has come to that job. If he wants, he can apply for any other job.

They keep preparing to take out their IAS exam. He cracked the exam and got it. But in army, during one year of training, you can't even apply for any other job, which is again illegal. So people keep approaching me for this.

Sir, I want to quit training. Now if I want to quit training, I have to pay 5 lakhs. I am willing to pay that cost also. But I am still not sure if they will let me go or not. People don't know what kind of rigorous life army people are leading. That is why they think that our life is tough. Yes, their life is tough.

But the big deciding factor is that if they can't tolerate it, they don't want to do it or they have a desire to do something else, then they can leave it as they wish. What is the salary of a soldier? I don't know much about it. I can tell you about the salary of officers.

Tell me. So, when I took release as a major with 10 years of service, my salary was 80, 80,400 on basic. Plus Rs. 42,000 something on DNS allowance. Plus Rs. 15,500 on military service, MSP. Because we are carrying our lives on our shoulders, that's why we get MSP.

This causes a lot of problems to many people. That why are the soldiers getting MSP, that's why I am telling you.

What is MSP?

On military service. I am telling you this because many people are getting MSP. What is MSP? It is Military Service Payment. It means that life is in danger. That's why this concept is there. Plus Transport Allowance. If you are living in Class A city like Mumbai, then it is around 8400.

And Tier 2 cities, I mean, apart from the Tier 1 cities, in all the cities, it is around 4200.

Okay. You also get an army card. Yes, canteen.

So, what is the value of that? If you want a description, A CSD, Canteen Stores Department, which is called as canteen in short, is not a very big, strong privilege. You can't say that it is worth more than 5000 rupees per month.

It is about money, no? Privilege? What do you mean by privilege? If you are saying that we are getting a first class treatment in that canteen, no. So, I am saying that in what maximum you can accept its value? That is, when you bought toiletries and you bought kitchen stuff. So, it is also for alcohol, right? Yes, it is for alcohol. I will come to that. I will come to alcohol because that is the most exciting thing for people.

If you are a tea-totaler like me, then you cannot get the worth of Rs. 5000 per month.

I am a tea-totaler.

Yes. I agree with the point about alcohol. Those who are heavy drinkers or those who like to party, who themselves are not heavy drinkers but those who like to give others to drink, for them yes, liquor is cheap. You get liquor 30, 40, 50, 60% off from the normal rate because all taxes are deducted in it. So fine, how much more will you accept its worth? 5000 rupees per month or more, maybe, I don't know.

So it is not a great privilege that you are jealous of. In some other government jobs, I will tell you a better facility than this. My brother is in RBI, Reserve Bank of India. They get Sodexo cards. Sodexo cards you can use in McDonald's probably.

You can use in any shopping, grocery store or anywhere. I would say it is a much better facility than your canteen. You can buy whatever you want from anywhere, you can spend it according to your needs. This canteen facility, You can buy whatever you want from wherever you want. I have spent 2 years in Sharifabad, Rashtriya Rifles. I think I won't be able to utilize a canteen worth Rs. 1000 in a month.

What will you buy in the field? Shampoo? Soap? I have spent Rs. 40 on a shampoo. Rs. 20 on soap. Rs. 10 on toothbrush. What will I save from that?

I mean, you have to see what is the utility of that facility.

Where did the drinking culture start in the army?

From the British. Because they want to chill. In the hospitals of the Indian army, if I am not wrong, 24% of the people who are admitted, they are admitted for ADS. Alcohol Dependency Syndrome.

In army, this is the second or third biggest ailment in terms of volume, in terms of the number of people who are affected by it. So how do they get addicted to alcohol? Because they start drinking it. In parties, stupid parties are happening because of the English culture. Why do we have to party?

I mean, the concept of a party, according to me, when it was originally made by the English 200 years ago, that is, you are in a harsh field area, there is no other means of entertainment there. You will meet together, chill a little, there is no radio, no TV, no internet.

Okay, we will sit together, we will chill a little. There is no radio, no TV, no internet. Okay, we will sit together and have a relaxed time. We will chat a little, we will joke a little. Because there is stress in life. There is stress in the army life, so we will use it like a stress buster.

So there they force you to drink.

Force, force is done in many ways. See, forcing doesn't mean that by putting a gun here, they are saying that you drink. Then? Compulsion. Like, Raj, put one. Now I am senior to you. Raj, what happened?

You have been promoted today.

Today you have been made captain from lieutenant. Put some happy words. Then one came, Major XYZ. Raj, you are not drinking. You have been promoted. You are not drinking.

Brigadier sir will get angry. One colonel sir came. Raj, two officers are telling you that you are not drinking even now. How can? We were there, we did not have the tongue in our mouth to refuse the senior's order. How can you do this? If someone is talking to you so lovingly, will you do this? Not done.

Then, madam, please tell Raj that Raj is not taking drinks. Then Raj's senior, subaltern, Major Rajesh. Now he is telling Colonel Rajesh, Rajesh, what are you doing? How is your junior? So many officers are there,

and you are not drinking? Is he a kid? Is he a sissy? You are drinking? What are you doing? You are drinking lemon water?

In this way, if pressure... See, no one is going to shoot you. But this kind of... Why this kind of pressure? You drink if you want to. You swim in alcohol.

You are getting alcohol at a cheap price. You do the drinking parties. Or you run rivers from my side. Don't make me drink if I don't want to. If I don't want me drink, if I don't want to drink. Don't make me drink, if I don't want to drink. I know an officer. He was a 21 year old guy.

Hmm.

First day he comes to this unit. To his unit. He has never taken drunks. Straight out of NDA, IMA. Two officers took him. Two or three.

You know how many they made him drink a lot. He said, brother, drink bottoms up. He did it. Because, see, the environment is like that. You will succumb to the pressure created by your seniors. He drank bottoms up. Brother, if I am not wrong, for 2 days or 3 days, he was spitting out. He was lying in the MI room.

Medical inspection room. Medical room. If you have never drunk alcohol, you suddenly... Medical room. If you have never drunk alcohol, you have different capacities, different body, 30 ml, 60 ml, 100 ml, whatever capacity you have, if you make him drink alcohol, he can die, no?

Why are you playing with people's lives? First of all, in this, government should take out orders. No drinking in official party. At least not, at least it should not be encouraged. You can offer it. No encouragement of drinking,

no compelling drinking. You can offer it to anyone. You can take it as per your wish. In fact, I don't think that should be the system of offering. Because alcohol is cheap in the army. Some people say that if you want to drink alcohol,

why did you join the army? As if that is the major, the greatest advantage. See, if you want to join the army, you have to come for patriotism. You have to come because you love your motherland. You have to come out of patriotic sentiments. You have to make your sacrifice, your compromise, you have to sacrifice your life, not just to sacrifice, compromise, sacrifice your life not only to die but also to compromise your life.

That we have to serve our motherland, we love this country. What are the other privileges of an officer? Like, there are top level generals, army generals. What are their privileges? What do they have? I will not say that I know everything about them. I retired with major rank which is a very humble rank. In many ways it is a great rank.

The world gets respect in this rank. But it is a very low rank within the army hierarchy. What ranks do you have? I have a left-hand colonel, colonel, brigadier, major general, left-hand general, general, field marshal.

Field marshal is the top.

Yes, Field Marshal is honorary rank. Not everyone gets it. Till now, only two have been made. General Kareepa Sahab and Sam Anikshaw. So, what privileges do they get? Very big bungalows. In the heart of the city also, in Delhi. They have huge, lavish bungalows in prime heart of the city.

They deserve it.

They deserve it. Very much. It is earned. Now, if civilians get so much, why shouldn't they get? Very much they deserve more than civilians deserve.

Yeah.

By any standards. In fact, in the army or in the Navy Air Force, very few people reach that pyramid structure, which civilians almost 80% reach that pyramid structure, which is the rank of which civilians reach almost 80%. In the army, only 10-20% people can achieve that rank. Very rarely anyone can reach.

So, they most certainly deserve it. But since you asked me what are their privileges, but what they get a little more from civilians, in some scales, is that they get a lot of manpower. Now, if there are 10-12 soldiers in the general's house, it is a requirement to some extent and abuse of power to some extent.

That they have to maintain his garden, he has a washer, he has his own cook, he has his own hairdresser.

And all these are done by soldiers?

Absolutely. To a great extent. Which is supposed to be changed. This is what I am saying. This is the English culture.

A soldier is doing to be changed. This is what I am saying. This is what the British culture is. A soldier is doing gardening.

Yes, yes.

That is what is supposed to be changed.

A normal person can't do it.

Because we should do it outsourced.

Hmm.

Now I have...

Bring a gardener who can do gardening.

Exactly. That's what I am saying. A soldier who is from a soldier, he says that I have to work for the country, I don't want to farm for a general, I don't want to be a gardener for a general, I don't want to be a driver for a general. Driver is still understandable to some extent because the army has its own cars. But I don't want to be a waiter, a cook, a gardener for someone.

Sometimes a washerman is a civilian, but he does gardening work for his soldiers. This is what I am saying. I made a video in which I said that army does all its work by itself. People are trolling in that. They don't know that army does all its work by itself except for MES services. They do their own gardening, their cars, repair their vehicles, maintain their weapons. All this work is outsourced in civil street.

So, this is what I am saying. This English culture should not make the to do such menial work. They are very much in need of their dignity.

Fair.

Can a senior do something illegal by giving an order to a junior? Hmm.

And if the junior doesn't want to do it, then what will he have to do? One of the two will be a court martial. But no junior can put an allegation on a senior. Absolutely. Section 101 clause 3, if I remember correctly, of the Army Act. Junior can order the arrest of a senior also.

But it is not possible.

It is not possible practically. If a senior says that there is some illegal work, then it has to be done. Yes, that is practical life.

It will be an unsaid rule.

See, but what kind of illegal work is he illegal work, that is a little... Have you seen Few Good Men? Absolutely, many years ago.

You remember the concept?

Yes. Code Red.

Yes.

In India, there is Code Red.

What is Code Red? It is some kind of a secretive code.

Code Red means that in that unit, in Few Good Men, new people are admitted in that unit. Two of the new people are a little weak. They think that this is a little rough. So, they should be a little extra brutal and toughen up. And give them cold-ray treatment. So, bully them a little, pinch them a little,

they should understand a little.

Beat them a little.

Beat them a little, so that they can be tough. Because we need tough people on our border, we don't need such free people. So that guy writes his letter to the high command. That sir, I am not able to do this much. And that letter reaches the high command. So the high command says that sir, now he has written a letter.

So now beat him up more. So that he becomes tough. After that we will see what to do. So when they go to beat him up, they torture him so much that he dies. And then in that whole movie, the head which is...

Colonel rank or whatever. Any rank. He is like someone or some big officer, the top officer. He defends this thing. That don't teach me how to keep my men ready. Because you guys are chilling at home. Because I provide you with freedom.

So let me teach you.

Correct.

So he justifies that the code red justifies. That's why people are tough. We do anything brutally.

So this happens in India.

In a brutal way.

Yes, yes.

We prepare and punish. Yes, yes. They prepare and punish. Yes, yes. It happens a lot. See, it happens a lot in ParISF. I have not seen ParISF. It happens in Commando course. It will happen.

I am presuming 99% with confidence. I have neither done Commando course nor I have done ParISF probation.

I have been with ParISF and Commando many times. Here on this podcast. Their training is like this, I don't know what code red they will get on top of that.

Correct. So, the same thing happens in India. So, because I am a lawyer, I have served in my legal department. We have seen court martial, court summary, trial, court of inquiry etc. But I have trained in OTA Chennai. In that, a lot of things like code red happen.

Like? Yes. Like you are standing on your head. Okay. Head down and feet on the wall. I had stood like this once for something.

That was because one of my seniors had borrowed my shoes. Because the shoe sole was a little better. His shoe was scratched. Now he needed it for the drill. If he would have used his shoes which were dirty, he would have got the punishment.

My shoes were shining. I didn't have them on. He borrowed it from me. After a week, I told him that I need it for the drill. He said,

''Bastard, you want your shoes back?'' ''From a senior? Son, you do this. Stand on your head. I was standing comfortably. I mean, we stand in it. This is not extraordinary.

It is a normal thing. Half of the people are standing somewhere like this. Someone is hanging. Someone is standing in the undergarment. Suspended from the wall. So then I will a loud noise.

Then I came to know that he had hit with his sword on my buttocks. I realized it later. Some people have a sword which is used for drilling. He was a good guy. No complaints against him at all. I am on good terms with him.

So, he had a sword because he was using it for the drill. So, all my course mates who were standing there, around 35, they all got scared because the noise was too loud. Otherwise, it's not a big deal that they were killed by the sword. They threw tea on their face.

They ran for 12-12.5 km, then exercise for 2-3 hours, cycle 100-200 times, didn't sleep the whole night, then wake up in the morning and do PT parade. And then in classes, if you haven't slept the whole night, then when the class will start, the boring class, where they are teaching military tactics but nothing is going on.

So, we were sleepy. So, we were sleepy. AC was also on in some places. So, we were getting punished there again. We were lying upside down and doing push-ups. So, in the afternoon, in the heat of Chennai, we were standing outside the company office for half an hour. An officer came there and said bend. And on the ground, that tarred road, the pure, strong tar, made of concrete, in that, with his hands like this, he was bent in the push-up position.

And the sun was so bright, when he got up, the handkerchief fell off. After that, we went for lunch. After lunch, a senior came. He was playing for 2-3 hours. So, I have experienced that life for 49 weeks. And Indian military training is no less rigorous than any country.

Maybe Israel is considered tougher than us. But OTA Chennai is very rigorous. And the training of officers is tougher than the soldiers.

Does bullying happen?

Sometimes there is harassment. Which is, I would say it is different from bullying. In harassment, if we have some cases, a soldier is being forced to go to the toilet, he is not allowed to go on leave, he is not allowed to keep his phone with him,

he does not talk to his lawyer. Why? Because if he talks to the lawyer, he will be in trouble. He will write letters, there can be a complaint against him. So he is afraid of that. And one more thing is that a little bit of this,

again I will say colonial mindset, that I am a senior, I am a colonel, how dare this bloody soldier raise his voice against me. How dare this piddly captain not follow my orders. So, it's an ego issue. So, in such stages, there is a little bit of useless harassment. There is still a lot of ego issues.

There is a lot.

What is useless harassment? If a colonel feels that how can my ego do this for me, then what does it harass? Anything.

Unofficial punishments. Like? Like, 15-20 kgs of sand is put on him. They are telling him to run or stand for 2 hours.

And if you refuse?

Then court martial. Summary trial. That you have... Section 63 is there in the Army Act. The solution to all the problems is Section 63.

What happens in that? Section 63 is there in the Army Act. The solution to all the problems is Section 63. What is it?

In that, it is violation of good order and military discipline. If you are not getting any strain to beat someone, then apply Section 63 on it because it is completely open-ended vague. I came here. I did not pick up the cycle, so I... I mean, you can use it vaguely.

I came here, you felt that Major Kavish has come here, he has violated the military discipline. The shoes are not clean, they are not polished. If you forcefully, you are in a bad mood, so he made you that you did not polish the shoes properly. When senior officials were coming on a visit, and it was your duty, because you had to polish your shoes properly. You also got an order that you will polish your shoes properly. That's why we are doing your march up in section 63.

Your summary trial will be done. Then we gave you any punishment because there is no system of checks and balances in the system made by the British. So, now you have a 7-day pay fine or a 7-day jail, which is jail inside the army, it is called quarter guard.

And pay fine for 14 days, means cut his salary for 14 days. Whatever it is, 10, 20, 30 thousand rupees, whatever it is. Because now this is an in-house affair. That young man does not know anything, how to defend himself. So, in this way, that man is accused of section 63, and he is beaten by that allegation. and the Supreme Court has given guidelines that you should not do a summary court martial normally

because the prosecutor, the commanding officer is the judge himself and he does not get the right to defend himself effectively, he does not get the opportunity that's why you should not do a summary court martial. But we are still doing a summary court martial easily because to do the general court martial, it takes a lot of resources. A lot of manpower. And it amounts to a lot of diversion of a lot of resources.

Talking about cases and judgment and resources. One thing that I find very weird is that if a soldier of ours goes across the border,

then why can't we bring him back? Why are there so many complications? Man, if a soldier of ours goes beyond the border, then why can't we bring him back? Why are there so many complications?

In what sense are you saying? I mean, has he been captured by Pakistan or? Pakistan has gone, or he was caught, or he stayed there, or he was on some mission, he entered.

Now, it becomes very difficult for him to come back.

See, first of all, I am not an expert in this. I claim myself. But I will definitely say that diplomatic relations and international relations come in between. Now, the role of the UN will come in between. Because there is a long-standing dispute between Pakistan and India. So, what will the UN say? Why did you send your man there? Now, there are many things in it. Pakistan is saying a lot of things that this terrorist, he crossed the border illegally, he is a spy, etc.

Now, he is saying such things. What is India saying in its favor? And then, there is definitely America in between. He is a big brother. America has to dominate everything. Okay. So, they will interfere in something. Then, there are some people in this, who we disown.

This thing I know from credible sources. Like the prisoners of war of 1971, India has disowned them. There are some missions where we secretly send them. And if they are caught, we tell them that we will not catch you. You have to go or see what is there.

That is a country policy.

But it is not so easy to call them back. In this, international laws will come into play. Pakistan's laws will come into play. Indian laws will come into play. And one more thing, I think we need to do more hand-holding. And we need to be more outgoing for our own men. So, America brings them from anywhere.

Big brother, big brother, they want to dominate. They enter from anywhere, even if their people are illegally, they bring everyone. No, I am not saying, I don't know much about it. But I think America might do a lot of things that India is not able to do. See, actually in India, Army, Navy, Air Force are not empowered to the extent that they should be. Because unfortunately, the government sees that we are spending on them.

Army, Navy, Air Force are not giving any tangible product or any output. Because that is their negative output. If we stop someone from attacking, then you can't calculate it. You can't see how much turnover we have done this year. Let us say Bharat Petroleum Corporation.

They will show statistics. That how many crores, thousands of crores we have turned over. We have done so much employment generation, etc. In the army, it is very difficult to show that. It is not just about employment generation because there are a number of people.

What will we show? How many casualties we have? That is negative data. In the army, the non-operational casualties are more than the operational casualties. Like these ADS type people

who are dying of disease, who are dying of disability. So, what numbers will we show? It is very difficult to quantify in tangible figures, the contributions made by the Army, Navy, Air Force. That is why I think that the government takes the Armed Forces as a burden. If you see, since 1947, the comparative relative value of the Armed Forces is decreasing.

Why?

At that time, the Chief of Army, Navy, Air Force staff, all three of them used to come on, if I am not wrong, rank 2 or rank 3 in the official order of precedence of the nation. Now, they come on 14th rank or 12th rank. Slowly, slowly, they are falling. Because when the British ruled there, they had to dominate India with military, police forces or paramilitary forces. They had empowered

the armed forces. What power do we have today? There is no power. I mean, I can define it in graphic terms. I can explain you with illustrations. But as I know that many times it happens that, let us say, a colonel rank officer, who is becoming a colonel after 14 years, if there is a meeting of a colonel and let us say, a 7 year old IPS officer,

then ideally, that IPS officer should come to meet the colonel. Colonel should not go to him, because is senior to him in the office. But the colonel goes to him. Which is wrong. Ideally he should come. But socially and in terms of public perception that IPS officer is much more empowered.

Practically he is much more empowered. The power of army officers or the power of the armed forces officials, whatever their powers are, they are within the army. They have no power over the civilians. They will get respect from the civilians, but they don't have power.

Hmm.

One thing which is increasing day by day is fake cases on army officers. Yes. What are the fake cases? What all types of cases are being filed on soldiers?

It is very interesting. The biggest problem is the maintenance allowance. Its root is section 90 I and 91 I of the army act. So, in this,

any army officer's wife or any soldier's wife will write a simple letter against him. In the letter, he has to write a very simple language in the letter. Sir, he beats me, tortures me, does not give me money. Please tell me how to survive.

Now, whether it is true or false, whatever it is, we army people ourselves hit it on our own feet. We are axing our own foot. Meaning? Meaning, like his blind, almost, we, not like her blind, but without proper investigation,

without proper study, we just against that lady, in most of the cases, you can say 90% cases, 95% cases, we grant maintenance allowance in favor of the lady. Now, if you consider that case is false, at least it should be properly investigated. Like in civil court or criminal court,

any lady by filing an application, or filing a complaint, or filing an affidavit, she will not get maintenance allowance for free. But in the army, we are giving it for free. We don't have any resources to investigate whether that lady is telling the truth or lying.

No witness comes in the lying. No witness comes in front in the army. No neighbor comes. That lady is writing that sir, he beats me everyday by drinking. Now you are living in the family quarters. Means you are living in the army's campus. There this guy beats me everyday by drinking.

He beats me with belt, bat, shoes. At least you call your neighbors and ask them. He beats, you must be shouting. Bring a witness who says that he beats me at 1 or 2 in the night. Has anyone heard the scream from my house? Without any witness, without any written evidence,

without any medical evidence, sometimes we grant straightaway maintenance allowance. Lady will just write a simple letter, which I told you.

Where does the maintenance go from?

From that soldier's salary. Who is your own man, who is your own man, who is your own disciplined, punctual, patriotic soldier. How much salary?

Up to 22%. Anything can be given up to 22%. If there are children, much is the salary? Up to 22%.

Anything can be given up to 22%. If it is a child, then it can be given up to 33%. Assume that your salary is 40,000 rupees per month. 22% of that is deducted. 8800 rupees. 15,000 rupees per month is your house's cash salary. 25 years were left.

8800 out of 25 years was deducted. One, your personal a personal loan, for which you gave a set of diamonds to madam to satisfy her tantrums, two years ago. Her loan is going on. What money is left? Where will you eat? Thousands of youths are suffering because of this. But maybe it is possible that genuinely he is suffering. Correct. That is what I am saying. You call for witnesses.

How witness? If someone is beating someone in the house. Like it happens in civil street. In normal courts. See, there can't be different laws for 140 crore people. There is no caste system here. There is a uniform code for all Indians.

Maybe army unity is so strong that the neighbor won't say anything. Something must have happened because of this. Why would they create such thing?

Why would they create such thing? Because the husband and wife are not getting along. So, he has filed a false case and he needs a maintenance allowance. Maybe the wife is having an affair with some other guy. See, the thing is, the criminal type of, or even if it is not criminal type, the law of maintenance allowance is same for 140 crore citizens. I am not talking about personal law, Hindu law, Muslim law, there are some differences in that. But like the section 125 CRPC was there,

under that you have to prove the case properly. Until it is not proven, maintenance allowance should not be granted. So why is it that serving in the army, is it supposed to be a punishment? I am telling you,

nowadays, one should join the army with great caution. Because in today's date, at least, you assume, 30-40%, maybe 50% marriages are not going smooth.

Why are the divorces increasing in the army? Half the time you are staying away from your family. When you are staying with the family, you are coming at 10-11 at night after doing duty. Night duty is going on. Which is the right thing, I am not criticizing it.

Your duty is like this, even in the peace area, you are not getting family quarters, still you have to live separately. Normally, in civil street also 30-40%-50% marriages are on the rocks. So, when a normal civilian has a problem, many false cases are filed on that. Rape case, uncle, uncle, uncle, brother, brother-in-law,

whoever has not seen the face, lady writes that he tried to rape me. He molested me. He did dowry harassment. He did cruelty. He tried to burn me.

Threatened to throw acid. Sent dirty things on WhatsApp. All these false allegations are put. 4-5 cases. Atul Subhash type. But if this happens in the army, you are serving in the army and this started against you. So in civil you have to bear it, you have to bear it in the army.

The unit you are a good soldier of, that unit will be after you. And if you are doing well in your career as an officer, then you cannot get promoted, you cannot pick up the colonel rank. Before picking up the colonel rank, you have to make a report that whether the officer's family life is going well or not.

If your family life is going disturbed, even though the entire fault is of the lady, no one has investigated that. Suppose this lady has made up stories, which many ladies do nowadays. Even gents do it. Gents are also very bad.

They beat and drink. I am not saying that. But until it is not proven that the person is at fault, why is he getting punished? This is going against the very basic fundamental principle of criminal jurisprudence. No man should be condemned unheard. Audio alterem patem. Any person should be... This is happening with civilians as well.

What?

It happens with civilians as well.

No, it doesn't. It happens with civilians too. It happens with civilians too. It doesn't. False cases are filed against civilians. But I am saying that civilians... Do they go to jail? Of course, they do.

But the civilian's job doesn't get spoilt.

If you get defamed in public, and you go in for this case, then the job is spoilt. No.

Sir, if you go in... Even if you don't go inside, then also this case is going on and if it becomes public, then also which private company or government company keeps people properly. Yes, I will now tell you. See, private company has a different concept. In private company, everyone has freedom. Whoever wants to come, come, go, go.

Okay. It is a completely different ball game. Private jobs. Compare it with government jobs. In government job, if your family life is going disturbed, then job, then if that lady writes a letter, and suppose you are in Indian Railways,

General Manager, if that lady writes a letter to the General Manager, then maybe he will take note of that letter, but for that, there will not be any official correspondence. Like here in the army, the case of maintenance allowance has started. That person, that major, that lieutenant colonel is being given a show-cause notice.

That your wife has written this, give an explanation for this. And all these are legal documents. After that, a separate case of maintenance allowance will be filed against him in the army. This does not happen in other government jobs. This is the difference. It happens in private. It's the will of the private. Then you leave it.

That is a completely different thing. There everyone is to his own in private.

In the army life, do the cases of infidelity increase? It happens a lot.

It happens a lot.

Men's side or women's side?

Both. Now, actually, the rules in the army, the judgment of Navtej Singh Johar in 2018 by the Supreme Court, in that the Supreme Court has clearly stated that any two consenting adults can do whatever they want to do. Man with man, woman with woman and man with wife of another man and woman with husband of another lady. Do whatever you want.

This is not a crime.

This is not a crime. If you have a problem, you can take divorce. Infidelity, adultery is a ground for divorce in I think all personal laws. In Hindu law, Muslim law, Christian, Parsi, etc. It is a ground for divorce. You can take divorce. But it is not a crime. It was a crime till some time back. Section 497 adultery. We have also done a court martial of an officer.

It was a crime. He was punished. It was unfortunate. Because after some time he was decriminalized. But still that officer had to suffer that punishment. Because till then it was a crime. Again, there is another difficulty in serving in the army. Because it is called in the army, stealing the affection of a brother officer's wife. If I am an officer in Indian Railways,

I am telling this to Indian Railways, for example, in any government job, then there will not be any proceedings against you in the railways, that you will reach the court-martial stage. You will be in the army. Or you will be transferred.

If you are with someone else's wife. In the same army. What if he is with another's wife? Yes. In the same army.

Yes.

That's wrong.

It is wrong. But again I am saying, it is very much wrong. Morally it is wrong. But what 140 crore Indians can do, the soldier cannot do. For that, the soldier, for divorce, he is also liable. His wife will also file a divorce case. But in his army, he will be applicable to the army law separately,

court martial etc. is possible. Is homosexuality a thing? Absolutely. I have been handling a case of sodomy. Sodomy is man on man. You are so much deprived, you have to understand. I was saying this earlier, you are on duty for 10-12 hours,

every day, even on Sundays, it's been 3 months, you are eating ragda daily, and on top of that officers scold you. Mentally exhausted, emotionally exhausted, physically exhausted, sexually frustrated. What will you do? I am telling you, let us be practical. We are not saints.

I hope that the soldier is a saint. Then you should keep the criteria that we will only enter the saints. First, you make a vow that either get the nasbandi done. I know it is a very wild concept. The one who got a nasbandi done will come in the army. Do this wild, extremist, stupid concept.

I know it is stupid. Or you say that the sadhus who have taken the oath of celibacy will come. I mean, you have to be practical in life. That man needs that thing. Sex is okay among consenting adults. Same sex? You have to be practical in life. That man wants that thing. Sex is okay between consenting adults.

Same sex is okay. But unnatural sex is wrong. But there is no parallel in BNS. In Bharatiya Naya Sahita. But I am saying that Section 377, if in the army

if a person does such like that in the army, even if it is not an offense for a civilian, it will be an offense in the army. It is not allowed to have a gay in the army, which is allowed everywhere. If you are gay, you will be removed from the army. If someone finds out.

Either by court martial or administratively.

What is administrative? Direct order.

What?

Administratively, this direct order is issued.

Yes, I mean, like a letter is written, a commanding officer to his superior, he to his superior, he to his superior. Then whatever is the competent authority, that letter will be issued, you are being discharged because you are homosexual.

And a large narrative is also that many soldiers are fighting legal battles for basic things many times, which is pension. You don't get pension. There are many fights going on. They have put up banners in the court.

Nothing is happening. Why is this?

Is it true? Yes, it is true. It is because the government is trying to save money.

Explain me this.

Why don't people get pension? Is pension right? Pension is a matter of right. Many courts have said this. We have brought a favourable order for Allahabad High Courses. Allahabad High Court had complained to the government.

It was the case of the Education Ministry. I am saying that pension is everyone's right. Provided you have completed the minimum terms of engagement. Provided you have completed the pensionable service. 15 years, 20 years. Yes. 15 years, 20 years. So, in normal course, you get that pension. But in which case you are not getting it?

In the case of disability pension. Who has now reached such a situation, He has come up with a very stringent policy. It is called Guide to Medical Officers and Entitlement Rules. Dated 21st September 2023. He has made such a strong law in this,

That even if you are suffering from 10 diseases, You will not be able not get disability pension. Which you have been telling since 2012, 2013, 2014. For example, if a person has dyslipidemia, heart disease, diabetes, hypothyroidism, PIVD, all the diseases, you have been telling him for 10 years

that you have 5% disability for PIVD, 10% disability for hypothyroidism, 20% disability for dyslipidemia. Let's say, your total is 35% out of all three. Let's say, 32%. You will get extra. No, no.

I mean, there are percentages of disability. So, you are 32% disabled. As per Indian Army.

Okay.

The doctors of Indian Army have written it. It has a proper board. Medical board of officers sits in it. In which 2-3, sorry, 3 officers sit first. Then it has a superior. Means 5-6 doctors go through this. They have been telling for 10 years that

you have 32% disability. From 21st September, 2023, suddenly the law changed overnight. That 32% is being reduced to 3%, 4% or 0%. Now, the officer whom you have been declaring yourself by your doctors since 2012

that you are 32% disabled. So, whenever you retire, you will get 50% disability pension in addition to your normal pension. That person, 50% disability pension will be given in addition to your normal pension. That person, 50%

Now, because you are disabled, according to the standards of the army, you didn't get a good posting.

Hmm.

You didn't get command tenure. You didn't get promoted in the colonel rank. You were superseded in the left hand colonel rank. You have suffered a lot from your finances. Okay. You have done your retirement planning accordingly.

I will get disability pension. And by getting disability pension, the normal pension becomes tax free. So, it makes a good amount of money. 60, 70, 80 thousand rupees, 1 lakh rupees per month. You have done it according to your financial planning.

Now suddenly, overnight, a policy came. Now their doctors are saying that 32% was earlier. Yes, we said that. But now we are saying that you have 3% disability. Till the time you hit the benchmark of 20%, you have to have minimum 20% disability in order to be eligible for disability pension.

So, now everyone's percentage has been reduced. I had a case about 15 days ago. That constable's leg is cut from under his knee. He is also running for disability pension. They are not giving him the pension yet. Why?

Because that man was going for casual leave. He was going to get a train ticket to return from his leave. And he met with an accident on the way. And his leg was cut. So, he was off duty. He was not off duty.

When you are going to book a train ticket, this has come in many judgments. And it is also in our policies that it will be considered on duty. Because you were going to the station to return to the duty of the army and to get your ticket. So, he got hurt while going like this. He met with an accident and it is very difficult for him to get disability pension.

The leg of the person has been cut from below the knee. This is one case where the government is trying to avoid pension. Secondly, if you are interested, the short service officers are not being given pension by the government. I agree that we did not work for 20 years for pension. But we also worked for 10 years, 14 years, plus 1 year of training. We worked for 15 years.

Some people in the Air Force have 1.5 years of training. They worked for 15.5 years. A soldier works for 14 years and you give him full pension. A short service officer is working for 15.5 years

and you are giving him a zero pension list. Pension iseme. Which is being given to 1.5 to 2 crore civilian government servants of this country. Paramilitary forces, Police forces, Civil servants, Railways, NTPC, Gale, SAIL, BP, CL PSUs, Autonomous bodies, everyone is getting it. They don't want to give it to us. They just want to save on money.

It is completely illegal. It is a violation of the right to equality. They are not giving it to us. Tell me one last thing. What's the darkest reality that civilians don't know about army soldiers or army life? The darkest reality is that you can't get out. No matter how much you are getting beaten up, you can't get out. No matter how much you are struggling, you can't get out. They don't know this. Many of them.

You can try to resign, you will ultimately have to file a case in the court. And after a lot of struggle, you will be able to get out. Another thing that people don't know is that they think life is chill. Life is not chill. Life in the army is not chill life in army is not chill you will be made to do things that you never imagined in your life

this is not only for soldiers, this is for officers too as a lawyer, I am organizing a party half the time I am making menu for tea party I am doing duty of secretary I am doing duty of garden officer I am receiving the duty of a secretary. I am doing the duty of a garden officer. I am receiving the wife of an officer.

Madam, what would you like to have? Which drink would you like to have? Madam, tell me this. Or which lemon water would you like to have? This type of things. And actually, these things become so much that they feel irritating.

Once in a while, no one minds. But half the time, if you are doing this kind of irritating things, it is very very irritating. And demeaning. Alright. Well, you answered almost all my questions.

So, thank you so much.

Most welcome. This is... I am speechless. This is the reality. Usually, I make army podcasts with politicians, geopolitics, administrative officers, IP officers, so that they get to know the reality of the country. And I put that country in the category of reality.

And today, more than reality, I got to know a lot of dark reality.

What is going on?

I want to say one thing.

Things need to be changed. Absolutely. And I think if conversation like this keeps on increasing, then probably someone will raise their voice and this will spread awareness to people and then we can expect some change.

Yes, I would like to tell you through your channel that I am not against the army at all. I am as big a patriot as anyone else. With all due respect to everyone, according to me, Army, Navy, Air Force are the best organizations in India, which I have tried to say very passionately.

But yes, the policies that are wrong, I strongly say that they are wrong. And they need to be changed. The right things should be continued. But the things that are wrong, which are either made by the British, mostly made by them, our status quo is going on. Or the things that we are doing wrong now, we need to change that.

Otherwise, I am not anti-army, I am not anti-armed forces, I am not anti-India. I am very much pro all these things. So, this is my humble message to all the nation and I request the entire community, all the patriots, to respect our soldiers.

And let's see this from a reality lens.

Absolutely.

Not from a for or against lens.

Right.

Thank you.

Most welcome. I was from St. Columbus School in Delhi. You must have learned English there. But when I came to Mumbai to study law, Government Law College, Churchgate.

I don't know if you... I know, man. Everyone knows such a prestigious college.

So, I went there and I saw... Who is he talking to in English? I was sitting in my class and I was looking at people's faces. I saw, what kind this English? Then he is standing up and speaking in English and I was in shock. I was in cultural shock.

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