England Out! Tuchel Got It Wrong & Genius Messi Delivers Again! | Stick to Football EP 142

They're the two things I think I've seen so many times before.Listen to yourself.

Listen to yourself.Now listen to yourself, just cool your jets.I'm not cooling my jets.I don't need to cool my jets.No, but Messi...

I know.Roy, how can you not go and just man -mark him in that section?

Do you not think teams have done that in the last 20 years?

Messi's out here on this...What are you saying, Gary?He's just got to stop that ball from getting to him.You can stop him getting it in that area.So stand next to him and make him go more central.

So what's happened in the last 20 years?No, but obviously, Roy, that is something you can stop.

We thought they might beat us by the spirit, the fight, the message.They beat us through quality in the end.We've lost a goal from a header with a back five of Spence, Byrne, Stones, Konza and Gaye.We've lost to Latoro Martinez.We couldn't have had any bigger defenders on that pitch to deal with that header.The last seven World Cup Golden Glove winners.

If we get this wrong, it's spoiling my night.This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybet.They're joining us all tournament long and we're delighted to have them along with us for the ride.We've got plenty more episodes on the way, so hit subscribe, get your comments in and stick with us all summer.Well, we're a bit messy tonight.We've just come off the watch along and if I've seen that once, I've seen that 15 times, 16 times.

I'm actually more flat today than I was when we got knocked out by France in the quarterfinal in Qatar because we had a right go at them throughout the match.I thought it was like a sort of bit of a basketball match.I can't stand us losing like that.Can we have the minutes where they made the substitutions?Yeah, come.We can.

He made the 72 -minute substitution which was Gordon coming off.For who?That's the momentum.Thank you.That's the momentum in the game after that.

What's the white?Momentum when Argentina comes over?

That's momentum for England, I think.It's dropped off.Sorry, hang on.What's going on here?Sorry, no.This is momentum for Argentina.

Yeah, but that's not from the sub on the second, is it?Yeah, this is 72 minutes.

So for me, he's made substitutions, Gal, that are not attacking, they're defending.Look, the substitutions will definitely get...Just quickly, Gal, for a manager that's been as brave as he's been, with the selections from the start, with the players that he's brought in, the substitutions he's made up to this point, Was that positive, Gal, that game?

Well, look at Mexico when we were 3 -2 up, I know we were down to 10 men.But we did go back into a back five with Dan Byrne and we tried to hold on in there and protect that.And we did.Look, the big problem for me was before we even made substitutions, we'd started to drop deep into the box before then.And, Ian, I've seen it so many times.

But you know what, I know the stats.We can all get the stats.But Argentine had 28 touches in the box.England's box.How many do you think England had?Any game of football?

Seven.And one was a goal.The opposition box.

Do we agree, though, up until 60 minutes, that game was, to be fair, hours or even?It was hours or even, wasn't it?It was a struggle.It was a battle.

You felt like we were in it.I only felt that we needed a bit more pace up front, so as we can get...Cos the width, on the wide, on the flanks, I only thought that's all we needed, a bit more pace up front, because when we were deep, Roy, and we were just kicking it up and then...When was we going to get control of the ball?

At some stage, they were going to get a grip of the game, at some stage.Yeah, but they were afraid...They're playing England, they're not playing Spain, where Spain, we saw yesterday, were way down.So they were going to get some momentum, they're chasing the game, and don't forget, they have the greatest player we've probably ever seen on the pitch.That influences decision -making.You got Messi, what are you going to do?

Right, he was on the pitch in the first half, he was still the greatest player.No, I'm not talking about the second half.The first half can be cagey.The first half took care of itself.Cagey.People afraid to make mistakes.

England eventually get a goal.Poor defender from Argentina.

And all of a sudden they have to take risks.

They're bringing on attacking players.They're bringing up Matt.They're making changes.They're bringing on, listen, a very, very good striker.And they've got Messi degraded.And you analyse it to the cogs.

England's two top guys who have been amazing.Had a quiet game.Kane and Bellingham.Messi puts a ball in with his...The first thing you think of Messi, what's he bringing, his left foot?It's a wand.

He puts a ball in with his right foot.They should have scored earlier from a couple of his crosses.What a cross that is.That is bringing football.

I think there's two things that I saw in the last half now, because I think the first 16 minutes, to be fair, we're 1 -0 up and I think we're pretty much doing a decent job.It's a struggle of a game.It's a World Cup semi -final.The minute we scored that first goal, we started to sag into our own box and drop narrow and drop deep.The second that we saw that, the likes of Pickford who have been here before and seen that before against Italy in a Wembley Euros final, the likes of John Stones, the likes of Harry Kane, the likes of Thomas Tuchel who have seen these games before, they have to push out five to ten yards.And the midfield players, Anderson and Rice, have got to get out five to ten yards.

So you're blaming the players?I'm saying that You know, I'm not blaming them, righty, because I did it in games where we lost tournaments and semi -finals and quarter -finals.I've been there where they were, but we've had so many of these lessons.I've said it to you so many times.We dropped deep for no reason.We weren't dropping that deep before that goal.

We score, and this is before Messi started coming out to the right -hand side, because that's the second bit I'll come on to.The first bit was before even Messi started coming out to the right -hand side, we dropped deep.The mistake I think he then made was that he went 5 -3 -2, which meant our midfield three, Messi then saw the space in these packets.That was negative.So that was negative, and I think that's where he got it wrong, and Messi started to drop out here.He then corrected it by putting

a four in midfield with Nico O 'Reilly on the left.And for some reason, he didn't just go and say to Nico O 'Reilly, I don't care whoever else is inside you.Stay with Messi when he drops outside you.Do not let him go.Man mark him.And when he comes out here, force him to go back inside.

Because if you go central, he can't cross it.The minute he's out here, he's where De Bruyne used to be.He's where Beckham used to be.He's basically putting them wicked crosses in.And they're the two things I think I've seen so many times before.But listen to yourself.

Listen to yourself.Now listen to yourself.

Just cool your jets.I'm not cooling my jets.I don't need to cool my jets.You're not, but Messi.

I know.

Roy, how can you not go and just man -mark him in that channel?Do you not think teams have done that in the last 20 years?What makes him great?What did he cross?

If you were marking Messi and he was getting towards the end, and remember, they scored with five minutes to go.So whatever the six yard win, the seven, England were still...No, Roy.Alright, let me just finish this point.So Messi crosses.

If you went out to him, whether it's O 'Reilly, or whoever.Not out to him, stand next to him so he can't get it there.

But football's not like that.You can't stand next to people.Right, right, right.

Messi's out here on this side.

Do you not think people have tried that?

Messi's out here on this...What you're saying, Gary, he's just got to stop that ball from getting to him.What I'm saying is, alright, it's difficult to man Mark Messi.However, you can stop him getting it in that area.So stand next to him, Nico.Right?

Jed Spence as well.And make him go more central.So what's happened the last 20 years?

No, but what I'm saying is, Roy, that is something you can stop.So what's happened the last 20 years?All the great coaches and players have done that.Because here you go, you can stand next to him.but I'll do a little shimmy or I'll move.

No, no, stop him getting the ball out there, make him go somewhere else, make him drop deeper and go into central areas.But when he did eventually get it, what would you say to a forward?

No, no, no, eventually when he does get it, what would you say to him?

He's dead, he's dead.

Of course you're dead, but you might go a couple of his great crosses where he should have scored earlier, he was coming on his left.So what you might eventually say to him, hey, show him on his right.He puts him on the best crosses.

Once he's got the ball and he's working his magic, he's playing little one -twos, he's playing his little run and follow, passing runs, he's trying to get the ball,foot, you're dead.You're done.Once he's got the ball with space, you're finished.The first goal came from a corner.

The first goal comes from a corner.

So that's not to do with Messi or space, that's players switching off.I think we switched off in the middle.Of course they switched off.Really badly.

But why do you switch off?Because your hands are on your knees, you're looking at each other and you're blowing.I think Jordan should save that as well.You mentioned last night about players dropping back.You praised Spain yesterday.Spain for playing a high line.

And their goalkeeper was unbelievably one of them.And he made some big decisions where he went.So maybe there's lessons where he can go... could pick for a set.Lads, keep going up and I'll be your sweeper.

That was my first point.We've got to push up more.We could not drop deep and go narrow.The second point around Messi, you're not going to stop him altogether, but you can block that side and fill that side where he is.You can block it.You can just put three or four players there and say, right, give it to Rodrigo de Paul, give it to others.

I know, but even a few times in the first and the second half, he was in them pockets.We admired him when it went into him.He was making things happen.

Yeah, but Gary, what was our plan when we went 1 -0 up?What was it?Because the only way we were going to beat them, Roy, was by hanging on.So what I'm saying, we've got players on the bench with pace.We've got players on the bench with pace.We needed to get out.

He didn't change anything in respect of us getting out, so it turned into him putting players on to load up and be defensive, something that Messi wants.Messi wants to tackle through people and dribble through people, put the ball in the box to chaos.

I honestly think the problem he had, and again it's something that's been seen before with England, the real ball's decision at 1 -0 up, was probably to take Harry off.I mentioned it during the actual watch along.If you're going to take June and Harry off and put, say,for instance Rashford and Rodgers up front as an example.I'm saying if you want pace on the counter attack up front in central areas, you've got to take off Jude and Harry or one of them.Morgan Rodgers maybe could have came off.

You've got to have someone that can run and damage.

The only thing I'd say about that now, obviously you need Pearce and Spearson.You do.But England weren't even getting a grip of it to play a pass.They never even got to that.

They weren't even getting the heads up.They were never getting out.

They were just getting suffocated by a brilliant Argentina team who showed spirit, fight, quality.They're world champions.Listen to their manager.Two months ago he got interviewed.Are we going to win it?No, we're not.

We're going to retain it.Criticise England.Argentina were amazing.They're street fighters.

They were 2 -0 down.

We'll talk about England to start with.We'll talk about Argentina in a minute.But with England, I agree with you, sometimes you don't do it.If you're sitting in, you need space and pace, but they weren't even getting on the ball.They couldn't get on the ball.You could have had the best sprinters ahead, but they weren't getting it.

Look, if we go back to pre -tournament, I think we all said the minute that England come up against a team that are technically going to keep possession of us in the biggest moments and pressurised moments of matches, we're going to struggle.We've not really played a team so far.If you think about who we've played, we've played Mexico, Norway and DR Congo.So we've played three teams that, to be fair, you know, I think Mexico was a tough game, really tough, but it was still Mexico, Norway and DR Congo.This is the first team we've played that's what you'd call a real high level, real high level.We've been found wanting the minute we've played a tough team and I think that's the closest that you're going to get to a World Cup final.

You're 85 minutes, 1 -0 up against Argentina and you've got a World Cup final within your grasp.These lads have been brilliant these last five, six tournaments because they've got to semi -finals and finals but that is a painful one for them.

I think it was a painful one.

And Thomas Tuchel, to be fair, will get a lot of criticism because of his substitutions Ian but he'll also get a lot of criticism that he's not been able to turnhe gets over the line the way playing 5 -4 -1 at the end with all the defenders on Everyone thinks he's a genius, he's got us over the line.

But he hasn't.

And when you don't, what if Gareth had done that today?He would have got criticised.

Thank you, this is what I'm saying.What would I have said about Gareth?The thing is that now, probably all the questions come about, well, we couldn't get the ball, we couldn't keep the ball, we couldn't get the ball into a position of offence.

That was the problem, right?Again, they couldn't get the ball to get even.

Because we didn't have the players who could do that.

So even forget about counter -attack, they couldn't get any shot on the football.

We didn't have players who were comfortable enough about it.in that position where someone who can get on the ball and be able to pass it, get it back, maybe pass it out of the air, pass it wide, we didn't have that.

I do think ordinarily what Thomas Huckel would have done in terms of his tournament sort of substitutions, when we've had moments of difficulty, he's gone, he's gambled and he's been brave and he's brought on the likes of Saka and Madweki and Rashford and Gordon at times, he's brought on players up front.All of those players are the same though.He went, no but I'm saying to you, he went today for the first time Apart from Mexico when we were down to 10 minutes, he went very defensive in his substitutions today.He brought every defender on you could wish to imagine to hang on to it.If you're gonna do that, the minute they score, we're like, we both said it, they're gonna score again.We're done, yeah, we're done.

And what happens, I always think, I know you're bringing on defensive players, And I think sometimes, that gives you a false sense of security.Because you go, we're getting lads back, we're getting def...No, no, no.And balls are coming in, you go, we've got loads of defenders.The head had gone.And he's in between two defenders.

That's what's going to happen.McAllister should score with the head.

You know what, McAllister's won.He was free.The one before that should have been scored.He was free.The one where he hit the post.Yeah, we had the warning signs.

The one where the goalie saved it.And then obviously the one where Martinez scores in between two.

I'm just really disappointed that midfield four went in front of that five, with a back five and a midfield four.I'm really disappointed that no one's gone to young Nick O 'Reilly instead.Nico, don't tuck in so narrow, you don't need to.Just stay wider on this occasion with Messi, be closer to him so that when the ball arrives to him, you're nearer to him and you can compete with him.But that's either the manager, the coaches or it's the senior players.If I'm a full -back and I've got Messi there and I'm having to tuck in, I'm saying to my wide player, get out wide, forget this and leave Rodrigo de Paul there, although he put a great cross in, but don't leave him.

That was the one thing that I thought apart from the dropping deep and narrow.

Who's the player that you think that...

Let's pick Freddie Stones, they're the experienced players at Righty out on the pitch.They've been there before where they've dropped deep.Do we think he should have saved the first shot?

The one with the side foot.I think what will happen is that when you see it and people continually play it, you'll see it didn't go into the side netting.

I think if you look at it, I think he was one of them ones, he was kind of Again, his weight was unexpected.Yeah, and then it was too late for the dive.And again, he got his range in a couple of shots earlier.

You mentioned that as well.

He was getting his range in and all of a sudden you're going...And they just switch off and it's these decisions.And fatigue kicks in, mentality, the corner, Messi just takes a bit quicker.

Short, goes back into the box.Do you see how they recognised?Do you see how they smelt the moment?They can smell the blood on us now.Because see, the blood was in the water.And once they got that...

The biggest word in football, they got against Egypt.When you get momentum in a game, we've all been there, far and against, it's hard to wrestle us back.When they got 2 -1 against Egypt last week, it's over, it's 3 -2.And today, when you go back, you go...I remember that was in the 80s, 50s.Instead of Argentina going, hey, thank God, we want extra time.

They're like, no, we're not interested in extra time.We're world champions for a reason.

What does this mean for Thomas Tuchel?Is he just getting a little bit of a kick in for the next few days?And then we move on?

You know all the players that he supposedly left now, what happens now is that a whole...We're starting all over again.Do you mean the Foden, Morgan Gibbs -White, Palmer?Trent?Trent, everybody.So what happens?

He's signed now, we've signed him.

Is his honeymoon period over now?Oh, without a doubt.

I think so, yeah.

Look, I'll be really honest with you, I'm totally...It has to be.Look, to do where I'm at with it, if you just said to me at the start of this tournament that we get to the semi -final...

We did say that.

I know.I'm saying that.Look, I'm disappointed right now.But we got to a World Cup semi -final with a squad that, to be fair, I'll be honest with you, I think that's the maximum.

You mentioned it just now, the teams that we played, that we should be beating.And we did beat them.And we came up against a decent team.

But was it like the last Euros, when England got to the last final against Spain?It's always kind of stuttering, isn't it?

Right, we've done the same thing.

There's never efficiency to Spain or even France.

I know France slipped up, but...This is a record that is stuck, and it's a film we've seen so many times before this.

So on one hand you have to give them credit for being, making this seven, and there is, because again, it's not easy, we've played, but just to keep coming up short and to be in that winning position, which they had before, that's what Thomas Tuchel was.But remember against Norway, there's little signs there, when Norway were 1 -0 up, they had a great chance to go 2 -0 up.You know, there's moments where you go, listen, you all need a bit of luck or poor decision, but again, what I enjoyed about the game today, like again, Argentina are world champions, It's nice to watch a quality.It was great watching Spain yesterday and we all sit back and you go, that's what it's about, that quality, that deal of pressure.

I remember Italy when we were in the final, Euros.Wembley.Yeah, Wembley.Spain and then today, same thing.There's patterns.Yeah, every time we're in the game, Luke Shaw scores, bam, we drop off with no way out.

We equalise against Spain in the Euros, we drop back, you know what I mean, they score again, they score to death and it happens again today.

Righty, and go back to 2004, we're beating Portugal in a European Championships quarter -final and we drop that deep and that deep and that deep and I'm playing.And you know, I'm part of the problem.And Helder Postega from Tottenham, do you remember the forward?He scores from like five yards out from a header just like McMartin has did.And we go into extra time, it's 1 -1.We've been here so many times, this is a pattern that's reoccurring.

Maybe at different times in tournaments, not always in the semi -final.What was that with the experience back four?That was with John Terry, with Sol Campbell, with me, with Ashley Cole.So why aren't you getting up?Honestly, we were absolutely dead out on our feet.We couldn't get out of the box.

We literally get pushed back, and then the midfield players sag back onto you because their legs have gone.I always remember that tournament.In that game, Scholes, Gerrard, and I think Becks, All got substituted because they were knackered.I think the three of them were all absolutely out on their feet.Is that...We're all getting too deep.

Declan was today, wasn't he?

But is that the demands of the Premier League at this stage of the season?

Some of these lads are playing in the Premier League.Romero, Martinez, McAllister, Fernandes, Enzo.They're all playing in the Premier League, four or five of these lads.Yeah, all of them playing.Yeah, but not all of them are four or five.But I just think, look, you look at today, Declan definitely...

He's not been right since day one, has he?Look, that's a big problem for us.Him not having the energy and the speed and getting to the ball.We know what he's like.He's a fantastic player.He's not been right since day one, has he?

No, he's not.

So why flog him in every game?Even in some of the games you think England are going to win, or friendly games.That's what happened with Sackler.The manager's got to be brave enough to say to him, if it's a Saturday tournament, you're going to miss the first one or two games.You've got to peak at the right times.

Copy Mania would be asking the question, wouldn't it?Oh, he'll be, of course.You'd be asking a question if you copied me, not coming after you.Of course he would be.Because he can handle the ball a bit.as well.

Do you know what, maybe, yeah.He can handle the ball.

That's what I'm saying again, you think to yourself, that's what I'm saying Gal, our manager made those substitutions.And he might have just done a dribble as well and won you a free kick.Yeah, but that's all it is, so we can take some of the steam out of the game, but you think to yourself, Cobby's there to be brought on as well, but at no stage was he even thought of it.It was all about defending and digging in.

You talk about the first goal as well lads, that's the first goal.If you're on about Pickford, we've always said Pickford is really going to be producing amazing saves, he's been very good for England, he's been obviously very good for Everton, but is he really top class goal?Goalkeeper.

You know what, when he made that save with that header, where we're saying, well, the header where he saved with his hat was a great one, obviously the one where he missed, what hit the post with it, you're thinking, yeah, he makes a great save, like, that's a great save, it's a match kind of saving save, but the one what went in, you're feeling like it's...

Obviously, we'll watch it back again.There's your two milkshakes, right?You have one.You can't finish that, will you?

Cool, thanks.This is it, this is like, you know...

Right, let's move on to...Did you enjoy the watching along?No?Did you enjoy watching it?

Let's move on to Messi.

No, but what is Royson wanting to say about the watching?The watch along.

Look, it's hard watching it without the sound on.

It's hard.I didn't mind it to be honest.It's all right.Especially with them as well.I didn't mind it not, because if they would have been singing it, it would have done my head in more.But, like, I didn't mind watching it without the sound.

It was tough watching it, the way in which it unfolded in the last half an hour, because you just knew what was coming.Mmm, I normally have strawberry, the chocolate's amazing as well.

Chocolate's amazing.Sorry, go on Gal, what was you saying?

This episode of Stick to Football is brought to you by Skybet.Lionel Messi.Well, what we have just seen there in that last 20 minutes, 25 minutes, that match is absolutely unbelievable.Do you know something?A different level in terms of grabbing a game by the scruff of the neck.And by the way, going to the part of the pitch that he needed to to win his team the game.

And that wasn't even the middle of the goal.

You know what was really interesting about it as well, Roy?You know what he does?He gets the ball and he's in the middle and he starts going towards it, playing to him, playing to him and keep moving.But then what happened was he said, that's not working for me.And he came out and all he started to do was, if he's going to go down that side, he'd go down that side or he'd cut in and cross.He just recognised, I'm going to stay here.

And unfortunately we didn't pick him up.And realising what your team needs.

He's a genius.We played football at a pretty good level.

This guy, I sit back and this guy is like...He's amazing.

But do you know what I loved about him today?We're talking about his genius play but it was his crossing.Crossing was amazing.Right foot and left.We won't look back at 20 years ago.I remember Messi, his crosses were good.

We always think of him as individual skill, his goals, how long he'd done a foot.But his crosses, again, reading what a game he...

They should have had another three goals.

Should have with that three -headed...You're on about stopping Messi.So today, every time he got it, as you'd expect, they were getting people, so he went...I'm just going to go half a yard and cross it.I'm not going to try and beat three or four players.I'm going to cross it.

Talk about reading the situation.The guy's a genius.He's won everything in the game.At the end of the game you see him.

So you've got to go with what Martínez scored.You've got the one where he hit the post and you've got the one where Jordan Pitt was saved.If Martínez was on for the other two, probably would have scored three goals there.Probably would have scored three goals because the service was amazing.

It's great to see headed goals.

When you watch Martínez and the But his winning goal last, a couple of days ago.No, no, no, this one here.

I know that, yeah, but his winning goal the other day was brilliant.

This one was, again, the cross was so good, but it was so, the way, obviously he's close enough, but it's the way he got himself into that situation.and just edited it so beautifully.

So when he didn't have space, right, and he sees Messi putting that in, he's looking and going, this is me.

And then the thing is, you see it because it would have been like...So where Gary is there, that's the space.Jon Stones just missed it.And it's like he knew, he knew it was just like...

Again, I keep saying about a team, they don't know when they're beaten, they just do not know when they're beaten.

I can't remember the...

Do you also know, Righty, what beat us in the end, though?The shithouse we saw for the first half, didn't we?When they were diving and they were grabbing us and we were grabbing them.It was a bit of a mess.In the last half an hour, they beat us at football.

Pure football, yeah.

When they needed a goal, and they needed the game to be fast flowing, and when they needed the game to be moving...Don't forget about Dan.They were far better than us at football.So we thought they might beat us by the spirit, the fight, the message.They beat us through quality in the end.Their quality in the last half an hour.

This is McAllister, this is Fernandes, this is Rodrigo de Paul, this is Paredes, this is...Messi obviously and Alvarez were important.Messi was unbelievable.But even Fernandes, Enzo Fernandes.That goal he scores, he's in step.

It's with his in step.

Again, you know, people will question it.But like, when it went in, in the goal.But again, you were saying it, Roy.He had a couple of shots and I said, why would you shoot from there?It doesn't even look right.

The Thomas Tuchel quote, it was not a structure problem.We played maybe our best game.No regrets.

That's bollocks.

Obviously he's got to come up with something.You can't say we played our best game.We didn't play our best game.How many times did we touch in the box?Did you say seven?Seven I think.

Come on man, if you're playing your best game and you've had seven touches in their box.In the box.You're not asking a lot of yourselves.

You're not asking a lot.

Seven touches.Look, 28 Argentina.Why is he saying that?It's actually insulting our intelligence.We watched the game.game.

You know what, maybe after the game, because what he said the other day when he was criticising, you know, maybe trying to keep everyone on side a little bit.He didn't want to be upsetting people.

Yeah, but Roy's saying that he's got no regrets.He's got no regrets.So, Kobi Mane, even if you think, you know what, could I have put Kobi on?Maybe he could have looked after the ball, we might have been able to get on.Should I put Marcus Rashford on?Should I maybe take off Morgan Rodgers at some stage?

So we get some pace to go down this hole.We can actually give the fucking defenders a breather or something.

Or is he going to say that my two best players didn't play well in this game?

I'd rather him say something like that than say that he's got no regrets about this game.Because there's a load of regrets in this game.Just sent down another quote as well with Gary.Everybody said we were too passive, etc.

We were too passive?Yeah.I think that's the quote I would like to see.We decided to go back five because the gaps were too big and to be strong in the air.Straight after the goal, with no substitutions, we conceded far too many crosses.We tried to help the players, but the responsibility is on the coach.

Of course, we wanted to go for the second goal, but it doesn't help if you don't have the ball.We became too passive.We couldn't keep the ball.I don't think it was a structural problem.I understand that these discussions are out there, that there are a million coaches out there who know better.I have to make a decision.

I mean, look, the only question that I would ask Thomas is...Is he saying this to players then?Because it's not a structural problem?Look, I think what he says, we're too passive, he's right.But the only question I would ever ask any England manager for the last 40 years, and player as well, including myself, why do we, when we're in a big game and we go a goal up, why do we drop and sag into our own box?

I said it from the 60th minute, straight away I went, oh no.You drop into your box, you've got three or four yards, what you do, it's one of them where early in the game, you clear the ball and then you're getting up.You're moving up as the defenders.The defenders are clearing it and then they're waiting for the next one.

You also have something to protect as well now.

I know, they're not shifting the legs.

Before the World Cup, where did you think they'd get at?

No, I think this is probably...This is right, yeah.So there shouldn't be any...I'm not screaming and shouting in anger here today.You said the same, right, didn't you?

I said the same, but then I thought that we'd be...Yeah, but then there's a bit of motion that actually did.But realistically, when you were...

I was confident we'd get to the semis, especially without running what we had to do.Yeah, but you weren't sitting there going...

So the semis were...And you always get found out.It's always how you get out though, isn't it?It's always the way you go out.

Every time you go out, there'll be a disappointment.This was a 50 -50 game probably in some ways.I'm struggling and flat because of the way we've gone out.I was happier.in Qatar a few years ago and we got knocked out against France where we played a good game.It was a battle, it was a punch up.

We lost it 2 -1, Harry missed a penalty.I've got no problem with that.I came out of that game thinking, I can live with that.Today, felt to me today, bro, I'll be honest with you, that felt like a step back to Italy at Wembley.You know, where we go goal up and all of a sudden we go deeper.They start to keep the ball.

It was the lad in midfield that played for Chelsea that play for Arsenal as well, Jorginho.He ran the game.

He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.

He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.

He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.

He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.

He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.

He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.He ran the whole game.

He ran the whole game.He ran the whole that we had a chance today, because I thought Tuchel might get us over the line just...I thought he might have the...You know, this was streetwise, and Manudju's got that...That's what he was brought in for, in that game, to get through that last 10 minutes, 15 minutes that we had, from 85 through to whatever it was, 110.Or, yeah, 100 minutes, sorry.

So that, to me, is that I'm flat because of the way we're beaten.

Yeah, me too.A bit disappointed, because I felt like, wow, we could get there.And then when we scored the goal, I was always saying about us scoring, and it's going to come from the flank.It's come from somebody breaking from midfield and getting past their back four.We've lost a goal.

I can't remember how many times.a header with a back five of Spence, Byrne, Stones, Konza and Gay.We've lost to Latoro Martinez, he's not massive.We've got six foot three, six foot four defenders.We couldn't have had any bigger defenders on that pitch to deal with that header.And we didn't deal with that header.

So that's another problem, don't get me wrong.But they were so deep.And then when you drop so narrow and deep, you can't then get out to people.The thing is, he would have been three yards out when he had hit that, wouldn't he?

Yeah, he was.Three or four yards out.Messy, messy.It's messy.You know what I mean?That's the...

Well, we watch games.You're right about having all the players back.But when we watch games at all different levels, when a ball leaves someone's foot, no matter how many is back in the box, you sit there and go... trouble here isn't it?So you could have 20 defenders but a good cross is going to cause you trouble one way or the other.

We've run out of things to say about Lionel Messi.You're trying to come up with different words every time you speak about him that are greater than the last words.We're lucky enough to be watching him.

Yeah, we took people to talk about pearly.

We didn't see pearly should we anoint him here because he's gonna get to two World Cup finals.That's absolutely off the scale, almost on his own really.This is not a great Argentine team.Has anyone done that before?Honestly, don't you start.

I know but they're not bad.What are you saying?They're not a great Argentina team.They might win World Cup back to back.

If they win back to back World Cups are you going to say they're a great team?He is like 20%, 25%, 30 % of them.He's literally...

Roy, to be honest, though, he did like...It was him that really...It was him.It was him that really grasped the game, because in with all the crosses.I get it.In with, like, taking the corner.

apart.That's what players do, Michael Jordan, the Bulls.

I hear what Gary's saying.Is this the greatest football player of all time?What we've just seen in terms of, I know it's just after a game, but what we've just seen against England there today, to score two goals in the last 5 -10 minutes with what he's done, he's set the corner as it is.Can we now start to place him above Pele and Maradona?Can we now start to do that with what we've seen?Yeah, but he's still behind Ronaldo.

You know what, I think...We're still not ready to anoint him.Maybe we have to wait till Monday.

You know what, you know the thing is...Sunday evening we'll anoint him.He's got that, well, the last woke up...We've seen the white smoke coming out of the ATV studio.He's got the last woke up...

There's a white smoke when you're anointing him.You've got the last woke up and you've got this one.If he does it...Then you probably...Two World Cups.Yeah, two World Cups.

But then you look at Maradona when Maradona went to Napoli.He's going to Southampton and they won the league twice.You can't take that away from the greatness of Maradona.

I'm not having a go at Maradona.I'm saying, are we anointing Messi as the greatest player of all time?Are we waiting till after the finals?No, no, no.

You know what?We'll wait, shall we?Every time you've...The discussion particularly about Maradona, Messi, Messi, mind boggling.We seem to be more of a character with Maradona.That's what it is.

We do like that Nathalie stuff.It's the flaw of the genius.

Is that a different conversation?I think it might be.If we're talking about purely as an achievement and what he's done, he's probably going to go down as the best.

And again, a few years ago when he came to America, remember all the criticism?Yeah, everybody's saying, oh, he's come for the money.I thought he'd come to a league where I'd just look after my body and pick and choose my games.

Pick and choose my games, pick and choose my refs.I'll be peaking for the World Cup.Pick and choose my refs, pick and choose my infantry.

No, I don't want to go on that road tonight.

It's nasty, it's nasty.I've got to be having a little bit of nastiness, you know what I mean?I've put my country out of the World Cup.You know, one of the greatest players ever.And what I've got to just give him tough, he'll continue on.

I think I have in the end.I don't mention referees then.No, no, no.

Did the best team win today?Yes, they did.

I think that was great today.You're not sitting there going to send an officer.

No, no, the best team won.And look, to be fair, there's no blame on the referee about anything.

No, no, I said when I was watching, I said the referee's done pretty well, didn't I?You can see I'm messing about.

The World Cup Final is here and the biggest ever ITV7 football jackpot is up for grabs.A huge £150 ,000 could be yours after £325 ,000 has already been won throughout the tournament, including £100 ,000 in two of the last three rounds.Answer the seven questions on the ITV7 app or website for your chance to win.It's completely free to play.Good luck.18 plus.

T's and C's apply.

It's not really money.

Golden Glove!The last seven World Cup Golden Glove winners.Well, Martinez is in there, isn't he?

Yeah, because you did a picture of him.Remember he done when he had it?

The Spain keeper's definitely in it.Because I think it's Casillas, because I don't think he won the World Cup.Oh, Casillas.Yeah, because he didn't concede a goal in knockout phases at all.Casillas.

How far does it go back to?It goes back to 1998.I think it's Casillas.

I think it's Casillas.

Can you remember him visualising lifting that trophy?

No, but I think...

But he's got a great chest.

I know Spain.Casillas.Casillas.Would be definitely in there.Can I invite him?

Yeah.Yeah, Casillas.Of course he would be.

Of course he would be Casillas.Must be a German keeper.What's the guy?Neuer.Neuer.

Yeah, 2014.

Manuel.

Manuel.I think we should go with that.

Neuer.

Manuel Neuer.Happy with that?Yeah.

Definitely.Neuer.

Right, here we go.Come on.2018 was France.Who was that in goal?Lloris?No, it was Fabien.

Fabien will be down there somewhere.

You gonna lock him in?Let's get Fabien in.

Did they win?Who did France play in the final?Croatia.

In the final?Brazil?No.

They played Croatia.No.In the final?In 2018.Did Croatia beat England in the semi?

Yeah, Croatia.It was Croatia.

So did the Croatian keep it?

I don't know if that'd been Barthez in goal.

No, it was Lloris.Lloris, yeah.Lloris was the best goal...Did they keep a clean sheet?Loads more clean sheets.I think Pickford might have done it.

Do we keep a lot of clean sheets?I don't think we concede a lot of goals.

It did cross my mind that he could be in the mix.

Surely you'd have remembered.Is it least goals conceded?Is it least goals conceded in a tournament?Is it clean sheets?It must be clean sheets.I think Pickford or Lloris.

Just best goalkeeper.Oh, best goalkeeper.

Yeah, but that would be judged then on your clean sheets, no doubt.

Pickford.Pickford might win.Does that ring a bell?It doesn't ring a bell at all.Who did France beat in the other semi?Who did France beat in the semi -final?

No, Pickford.Has Pickford got one?I think Pickford's got one.

I'd go Pickford and Lloris.We've got three at any rate.

Yeah, can we put Pickford, please?Yeah, Pickford.That's incorrect.

Go Lloris, then.I knew it wasn't right.

Lloris.That's incorrect.

So, what's the score on the quick...How much...Are we 4 -2?

or 4 -2?It's 5 -2. So we can't lose, can we?If we win it today, it's 5 -3. If it's 5 -4, you need to win tomorrow.

Did Brazil get to...Alisson?Edison?I'm trying to think of the goalkeeper.So how far back?What year have we gone back?

This is 1998.

2002, 2006, 2018.

Well, France won it in 98.

Is that Fabian?

I think probably.He's the only one we could go for, wouldn't you?

Baratez.

Correct.Just go for it.

2002?Who's the Brazilian keeper?Who's the Brazilian keeper in 2002?

Yeah, but it's not always the winning team.No, I know.

What's he called?The boy from...He had long hair, like...Do you remember him?

You've got one more life, so I'll give you a clue.So, the last three are all European goalkeepers for different countries.Oh.So, just to steer you on the right track.

Who's in the semi -final with France and Croatia in England in 2018?Aaron.Who did France play in the quarter?

Aaron.What's his name?Buffon.Buffon.

Do you want to look at that then?

Yeah.He's got a chance.

That's correct.2006, Gigi Buffon.

Well done.2002, so England get knocked out early off Brazil.He's not a Brazilian because they win it.Kahn?

No, not Kahn.Must be another German goalkeeper.But what German keepers are there?Was that Courtois?

Belgium.18?Was that Courtois?They got us in seven, didn't they?We played them in the third, fourth play -off.We played him in the 3rd and 4th playoff.

We did.

We played him in the 3rd and 4th playoff.We're with you Gary, go for a pop.

But was it...

Is it him in goal?For Belgium?In 2018, was he?

Of course he would have been in goal.Correct.Yes.Well done guys, back yourself.

Right.

18 to go.One more left.

I think that's it.

So who was in this final here?Remind me.Right.

Brazil definitely win it.And South Korea definitely get to the semi.Here.England get beat by Brazil with the one where Ronaldinho kicks it over Seaman's head.Right.So that's 20.

They win it.South Korea are in the semi.Here.It's who's in the other summit.I don't know what this looks like.You're right, Germany should be considered.

Who's the German keeper then?Who's the German keeper then?

Is it Kahn?Or is it Bayern?Was he not around then?Oliver Kahn.Am I getting mixed up?Yeah, it could be 99.

That's what I'm saying.

Yeah, it could be.99?Is there a World Cup in 99?Did Germany get there in 2002 though?

But did they get...They were crap, but they got to the...

No, I'm not sure.Germany got it in Korea.

Well, he parried it and...No, am I getting mixed up with different World Cups?

Who's the Spanish keeper then?If we get this wrong, it's spoiling my night.Who's the Spanish keeper?You need to pay me up tonight.Who's the Spanish keeper?

I have a German vibe going on in my head.Right, OK.

Can it be another German?Of course it can.It was between...When I gave that clue, it was Belgian.

Oh, Kieran, you're killing me here.I think it's a German keeper.And was Kahn still around?Khan was in our time, wasn't he?

He was.He couldn't be that good.I've asked a few past him.I'm a little bit like England.I've not got the belief.You're getting deeper and deeper.

Just push up a bit.

Can we just go Oliver Khan?You're locking that in?Yeah.

If this is right.Should have trusted Roy from the start.It was.Get in there!

Never doubt me!Never doubt me, you!You know what I mentioned him earlier?What?

When I mention it and they dismiss it, it must be him.As soon as they do it, it's him.

You always get a mention of the right ones.Thanks.Nice one.Oliver, you know what?

Yeah, I can see him now.See him?I scored a few against him when he was at Bayern.

Shall we win the money?Congratulations.

How much do we win?£7 ,000 for Jill.

Well done, Jill.

Make sure you send a picture to Jill.

Send her the most important ones.

Every cloud has a silver lining.Take a picture.Roy's only holding it because he's sitting down.Send that to Jill.

Go on, Jill.Well done, girl.

This episode of Stick To Football is brought to you by Skybet.Would you rather have the best manager in the world or the best player?

Best player?

Got to be player, hasn't it?I don't think Scalone is the best manager in the world, is he?

He's going to end up with two World Cups while they're looking for these.

But what I'm saying to you is...Considering Everton are not really a good team, but they're winning two World Cups...No, yeah, maybe...Best player.The greatest player.

From a player's point of view.

No, would you rather have the best manager in the world or the best player in your team, at your club, in your country?Best player?Best player, I think.Best player?Yeah, I think.Yeah, not a question, not a doubt, is it?

I think so.Who else there?That's a good question, doc.Yeah.That's a good question.Which player has been the biggest disappointment at this tournament?

Wow.Somebody's like, why are we going for that one?Why are they asking about disappointments?

Do you know who's had a poor trip?Bruno.Bruno would be disappointed with his stuff after the back of his season with United.

Yeah, Cristiano Bruno.

Or Ronaldo scored, didn't he?Yeah, well, Bruno.I think he's been the biggest disappointment upon it.Are we going there?What do we reckon?Pond it up.

Biggest disappointment?No, it's someone's house, the biggest disappointment.I think Bruno would be disappointed with his.He will be.Just the fact he's had such a brilliant season at United.Did he get a goal or assist in the World Cup?

He got an assist, he got an assist.

Considering if anyone talks about assists.Musiala, yeah, maybe Verstappen.Vinicius?

Vinicius will be disappointed.

He's scored a few bits.

I think he'll be disappointed in terms of, like, he's scored some good goals, hasn't he?

I think his team's not...Sometimes you can be that player and your team's not right around you.Messi's team's right around him.You know, we can maybe say the same about Ronaldo, all those years.

I just thought England have got to play a third and fourth playoff game on Saturday, haven't they?Trying to go to it?Where is it?Jesus.Pointless game.Where is that game?

Anyone know?Grimsby, I think.What?It's in Grimsby on Saturday.So who plays in there?

The worst thing is, it was like Scotland, you know, they had to hang around for three or four days.This would be like for England.Oh, my God.What is this?This is horrible.This is horrible.

This is sad.Yeah.It's horrible now.Do you reckon Mane would get a game?

I would like to think so, would you?Yeah.What do you think he'd say?How hot would he be going?Oh, absolutely.Be gutted, wasn't he?

How do you play in that game as well?You know what I mean?What do you do in that game?

Did England win it last time against Belgium?

Did they win it last time?Against Belgium?I can't remember.Did England beat Belgium last time in it?I think Belgium won, didn't they?Belgium won.

Would you want to win?Would it be important to you to finish third?Do you know something?He spoke...I've heard people in the air say they wish they...

Is there something on it, Roy?

You get a bronze medal.You get a bronze medal, you get a gold, silver, bronze, you get a bronze for third.Do you remember we used to play in that Super Cup?Remember we played somebody in Monaco on it in the United?And it was all a bit weird, it was a Super Cup.

Was it Lazio we played?

Yeah.We won two World Club Cups though.Yeah.Was it Lazio beat us at Monaco?

It was weird because we'd done that with AC Milan.We played AC Milan in Monaco.If you think about it, it might have been Gilles.No, no, no.It was like because we won the Cup Winners' Cup, didn't we?

If you gave me a bronze medal in a World Cup, I think, to be fair, I'd probably value that.

You'd have that?

Yeah, of course.

I'm just talking about the actual game, actually playing that game.where you come so close to the big shot.

Is it a great opportunity to say to Mane, who I know you're upset, but you can play in the World Cup, you know what I mean?Who knows?

Who knows?

Well, we saw a genius today find a way to win.Yeah, we did.We saw a genius.

That's why we can't complain about the fact that we saw what it's like to watch a great To me I think that should soften the blow for you.

We've got the greatest player in the world.But you're up against the champions of Fiji.

Do you know when you watch...If Norway had knocked you out the other day, would Norway have given it a proper pass?Do you know when you watch Francis today and you think to yourself in the last 20 minutes, you're thinking Mbappe, Dembele, Alisse, Dewey are going to turn up.Individuals didn't turn up.He's rocked up today.

Yeah, but you know what's good about them is that He could not be unbelievably messy like we've seen him.He could just be that messy where, okay, let me just provide.And the rest of them do enough, because like you said, they played great football, they played good football, and then he just had to do the basics from him, just get the ball into an area.He sat out of the game.

He knew he wasn't going to get space in that central area, in that middle bit.He was no point in waiting for someone to cross it to him.So he went and sat out in a position in a pitch.And provided.I still think, I know that you said not right, Steve.I still think we should have flooded that fucking area with people.

We didn't recognise.We didn't recognise the danger of him being there.We thought, oh he's out on the wide on the right, we're alright.And that was a big mistake.It was.The first big mistake was dropping deep.

The second big mistake was when we dropped deep and narrow, he comes and sits outside of the game and we thought we're okay.And they attacked the box well, didn't they?They really do.

You look at Macalester, you look at Martinez attacking the box, they attack the ball really well.

You're right, Romero, Martinez, Macalester, Lataro, Martinez, they're not six foot.Romero might just be six foot, yet they win that many headers, it's untrue.I think McAllister would be very disappointed with the team.You used to win headers when you ran into the box.I think sometimes it's about timing.

It is about timing and obviously having a good leap and a desire to head the ball.There's a great saying, I've walked with managers, you're on about Matt, Matt, there's only one ball and they wanted a header.Do I keep this or do you have to share this?

It's all yours.No, we take this back and give it to Jill.I should put my name on it, cos I've got multiple.

Yeah, Gil have this and I have the money.

Oh, by the way, are we still filming?We've got an episode coming with Peter Crouch that'll be out on Friday, so you can stay in for that one.We've got two coming in quick.