Episode 7: Ar. Hafeez Contractor | Making A Difference, a Havells Podcast

House for every Indian is the biggest infrastructure and it should be paramount.

I think looking at people, looking at things is to me education.Exactly.Observing people, observing circumstances and from where he comes, what he does is a complete Janam Patri.When I went for my US visa, the guy at the counter He says, hey, you are never going to come back.I graduated in the morning.

I caught a flight at 12 .30 in the night.That same day.You have to develop new ways of construction.

But going vertical is the only solution.

I'm opening the door and he's saying, Hafiz Saab, terrible.So I got, but then I saw his hand.

He's doing like this.And he's saying, terrible.So I also saw it, the modelness is terrible.How about making palaces for poor people?

Osho doesn't want, Osho doesn't meet anybody.I get a call, Osho loves you, Osho wants to meet you.Give the world the way you would like it to be left for the future generation.

Mr. Contractor, at what point did you decide to start making a difference?Hi and welcome to yet another episode of Making a Difference, a Heaven's Podcast.I am Parag Bhatnagar, your host for today's episode.Our guest today is somebody who is the most renowned name in the world of architecture and design in India and globally as well.He is someone who has shaped some of the most recognizable skylines, buildings, structures and housing projects.His work has set the direction for modern Indian real estate and urban development.

A visionary, a thought leader, an inspiration for generations, very humble, Padma Bhushan Awardee, architect of his contractor.In today's episode, we go beyond architecture and we will explore a person behind India's most successful, largest, and most influential architectural firm.We will look at Mr. Contractor's journey, his personality, and his passion towards giving back to the society.Mr. Contractor, we are honored to have you on this podcast.

Thank you, sir.

I understand that you are an incredibly curious person, always observing spaces, buildings, and lives.We also heard that you love sketching while in meeting rooms, even in informal setups like restaurant and while you are traveling.Is this sketching your way to build thoughts and process them?

I can't say anything thatwhy I sketch or why I think looking at people looking at things is to me education.Why a particular person dresses in that particular manner is completely with circumstances and it really educates me.In fact, when a person comes to me for, say, he wants me to design his house or he wants me to design a housing complex and the way he is dressed, what kind of watch he wears, what kind of, you know, suppose there is a chain that he's wearing, his hairstyle, his specs, I judge a character of a person through all that.And then I tell him what his house should be.

Oh, really?

Yes.And 99 .9 % I hit the nail on the head.And before he leaves my table, he confirms that what I've drawn is what he wants to do.And if he doesn't confirm by that time, he never comes back to me. so that means you know I haven't judged him right I haven't judged him which rarely happens sometimes you know a person starts talking and then I judge him so this is I think observing peopleobserving circumstances and from where he comes, what he does is a complete Janam Patri.

Very interesting, very insightful, that how you look at people and your objective is basically to provide a better solution.With that perspective, you look at the people.There are so many stories about you being a naughty and mischievous child.Even I heard that not really interested in younger days.I mean, as a child, even in academics.What were those early days for you?

Some reflections.

My father died before I was born.I'm the only kid.My mother was a school teacher and was a very mischievous boy and not studying, not going to school.In fact, if somebody had to take me hold my hands and take me to school, I would run away.

So they used to make me sit in a topla, you know, in a topla in Nausari?

They'll make me sit in a topla, the guy would hold it and take me to school so that I won't jump from that topla.

Jump from there?

No, I can't jump.So that's how I will be taken to the school.

My God.

And the kind of mischiefs that I used to do, So finally I was put in a boarding school and in boarding school, it's free for all.The whole year I won't be studying, bunking.What I haven't done, you know, isyou can list that, but what I have done, you can't.And never studied, sorry to say, copy here, there and all that.That is it.

But nobody can guess that looking at you.

No, but when I reached SSE, my principal called me and he gave me a talk for about five minutes.And that changed my life.And a person who had not studied was absolutely a mischievous boy, very good at sports, very good in all NCC and all those kind of things.On that year, I never went to games field or prayer room or anything.I studied with right from fifth standard, fourth standard and everything.And finally, in SSC, I got through.

And when you're saying, wow, if I tell you the percentage I got, you'll be shocked.

Is it?

I got 36%.35 % was the...

Oh, I thought you have...No.

No, but at that time, if you had done so many years of NCC, you are getting some 2 % extra and some things like that.And when I went to show my mark sheet to my principal, he says, oh my God, You've got a distinction.And he says, go to Atas Bairam, means that fire temple, pray and thank God.And after that, though, I wanted to join architecture because when I was in my fourth standard, I remember there was a lady who used to teach us English, Mrs. Gupta.She was a Parsi lady married to an Indian.At that time we used to get beating like hell.

So she always used to carry a long foot ruler, that two feet one and she'd keep on.And she saw me sketching and she beat me, you're a useless boy, not doing any work, not studying, nothing.But then she says, but remember, when you grow up, become an architect.

Really?At that time?

Yes, because I was not drawing.I always used to design cars.I used to design forts.I would design guns.And I had another friend, who's still my friend, and we both will play that, oh, my fort, I will attack you like this, and I'll attack them, and those kind of things.So she had told me when I was in the fourth standard, become an architect.

I loved it.And my favorite pastime in school, in the rainy season, I would make dams and block water.Those kind of things I used to do.At that time, after passing, I tried to get an admission at JJ.They won't even give me the forms.This person does.

So, my second, I wanted to join the army.So I replied for army.My aunt, when the letter came that I must come over there, my aunt tore off the letter and never told me.So I was going to join the police force.So my mother requested me, please do your graduation and then do.So I somehow or the other joined JN College.

There, as fate would have it, I had taken French.No, I had taken German, because everybody would be starting with German.The German teacher died, poor fellow.So we were forced to take French.So I was learning French from my cousin's wife.My cousin was an architect.

So one day from college, I came back to the office.He was not there.She was not there.And one fellow was drawing a window detail.And I saw it.And I told him, hey, he was a Gujarati boy.

I said, hey.

These drawings, like sketch that you do, these sketches came naturally to you?Like you said, you just started sketching cars and guns?

Nobody taught me.We used to say, oh, we never even knew the word section at that time.I never even knew that I used to shade.

Finally, when I joined architecture, Then I came to know, oh my God, this is called a plan, this is called a section, this is called sciography.

All that thing came later, but I used to do it right from my childhood.

And you spoke about prestigious college, like you know, Academy of Architecture.And then you also went to Columbia, US for studies.

Yes.

So from a child who has less interest to somebody as a young man who want to pursue architecture so much.Is it by the time that like you just spoke, it was your passion for architecture?Or you wanted to build a career?high ambition, what make you decide to go to US?

No, no.First of all, I wanted to be an architect, but nobody would give me an admission.So finally, with my cousin's influence and everything, they gave me a form.

And when I joined academy, I realized that they should teach us, you know, plans, sections, you know, they should say, design this or design that, in which I used to do it as a pastime.As you know, a kid would play.

Oh, amazing.

And for me, it turned out to be work.

So I think this is a good message to the young generation today, who's running after the percentage achievements every 10th and 12th.

No, but one thing is that one thing is that what I missed out today also in my office, I do only what I can do.There are lots of things which I'm not good at, which I relegate to others.And I'm lucky that I have others who can do all that.So that makes a good combination.So the percentages are also very, very important because there are so many things like maths, English, other stuff.

I would score only in drawing, geography, and all of that.which I used to love.

So that's the thing.You're right.Education is also important.Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.So your name, Hafiz Contractor, is a very unique name.We rarely hear this kind of a surname.

It's unique to you.Is there any story behind this name?

See, we are originally from Baroda and the neighborhood of Baroda, you know, there is a place called Kalol.We are originally from there.

Oh.

My great -great -grandfather started taking contracts and in fact, he made the Baroda University.As soon as you get down in Baroda by railway station, if you're taking a train and go there, the first building when you come out of the railway station and you see those big, nice, beautiful domes, that building was constructed by my great, great grandfather.

Really?

Yes.

I was, I don't know if you're aware that our first podcast was actually with Her Highness, Radhika Rajakai Kaur.She's the Queen of Padoda.I didn't know that you also have a connection with Padoda.

No.So, so, and, Our family used to be staying there.We still have so many houses over there.On the Gulf Coast Road, there were some seven or eight bungalows where the whole family used to stay.And my aunt is still staying there.Not my aunt, but my elder cousin.

She's still staying there.You can go and talk to her.So we are originally from Baroda.In fact, the agyari built inBaroda opposite to Surya Palace, the hotel, is also by our family.It's in the same stone and exposed bricks.

So we are from Baroda and my grandfather or great -great -grandfather used to take several contracts.So that's how we got the surname Contractor.

That's a very interesting story.You spoke about your interest in Indian Army.And it's a very fascinating story that you could get through Indian Army, just that that letter didn't reach you.We heard that you already got selected, almost selected.

No, no.You know, since I had done so many years of NCC and I don't know what was the procedure of.So I had written for an admission to Khadagwasla and they had invited me.Not that I'd got it.And my aunt, That is my fui.She tore up that letter.

And I came to know much, much later.And when I asked her, she says, oh, you're the only son of my brother.I don't want you to go.But that's a different story now.

But secretly, we all are happy that she tore up the letter and we've got you here today.

I could have been the chief of the army staff if I joined.Why not?I'm sure.I'm sure.Yeah, why not?

But these are two very different words like army as a career and then architecture.How this transition happened?

If you really go to see, army according to me is just not fighting.It's making strategies.

If you've seen movies of all the great generals and all of them.It's all planning.And what are we doing also?

In a building also, if you have to plan a building, you have to see how things will move, how things will happen.And it's, I think it's to me, it's completing a job on time is like fighting a war.

It's a very different, very interesting perspective.

No, no, no, no.I'm telling you, I'm telling you.When I used to do a lot of interior jobs and interior jobs we have to finish, you know, I used to finish offices in 15 days, one month.complete and at that time you never used to get chairs, tables, nothing, everything had to be done.But when I go on the site, the guy who is polishing the floor, I will, you know, pat him up and I say, then the guy who is doing the ceiling, not that I knew everything about the ceiling, but I will call his name.and say, and I remember, you know, Rama Shankar.

Those kind of things.

So, when you go, and you have to, I would say, build up, build up.So, they will do anything for you.When you go to the war, you have to build up the guys.It's just the same.It's just the same.So, it's to me.

Anyway, sometimes I feel, oh, Army would have been a great career.Architecture also is a great career.

But over here, it's like, yesterday I started doing a designing of a building.I think when your guys came in the office, it started by evening.I finishedmy design.So true.

Actually, while you were talking, I was just thinking, actually, it is about leadership and engaging people.And it's such a good way you explain that in everything, it is about human connection, leadership, driving people.Very insightful.Very insightful.See you in late seventies, you actually completed your education in US and you came back.At a time, I think many people would have dreamed to remain in the US, build a career there.

Obviously, back then in India, there were not so many opportunities.But you decided to come back.So is it because of the love for the country?Or you felt India needs to be built?Or you were very confident about building a career in India?What was it?

For that, I'll tell you.When I went for my US visa, The guy at the counter, he says, hey, you are never going to come back.So I told that guy, look, sir, I know your country is a great country, beautiful, everything.But I promise you, I'm going to come back because I love my country more than yours.You know, at that age, if you are in America, OK, that is US, everything and everything It's so difficult to leave all that and come back.

I graduated in the morning.I caught a flight at 12 .30 in the night, that same day.Really?Yes.Because I knew that if I stay one more day in that country, I'll never come back.It's so captivating, the luxury of everything, everything is there on your lap, left that same night.

Because You know, if everyone and everyone leaves your country, what will happen?You see my visiting card, when I started my practice, that is in 82.In 82, none of the government companies were also printing their things in Hindi.I have my visiting card in Hindi and English.

In Hindi and English?

Yes.Amazing.From that day, my letterheads also were in Hindi and in English.I firmly believe India is your country and you should do everything to bring our country up.And I firmly believe.

Amazing.So inspiring to hear from you your India first approach.Absolutely.

Absolutely.No two ways about it.No two ways about it.

I was also thinking how can that time I think probably everyone want to go to US and you were there and you came back amazing I mean it's a great story I would say my next question is actually even bigger than that at that time when you come back you came back to IndiaYou, that time actually entrepreneurship.Today, you know, every young man want to become an entrepreneur and rightly so, because so many of opportunities in India and everybody's trying his luck.But when you came back from US to India, entrepreneurship has a very different thing.You need a different character.And I understand you have only a team of three people in the beginning, two people.

I think two people.Thanks for correcting.And you still decide to go ahead.Excess of capital, talent, opportunities itself was difficult.So was there any fear, any challenges you want to share with us?Also very interesting to know how you got your first project.

Okay.Uh, I was working with my cousin.Uh, I worked, you know, I, first of all, I joined a college, which was a morning college.So I used to go to morning college.That was from seven to about 10.From 10 .30 till 5 .30 I was working with my cousin and I had already worked for so many years.

When I came back, I started working with him again.So one day, one of my friend, Kamal Hatkar, he... is a very big structural engineer.He called me up and he said that, oh Hafiz, there's a new client in that time.How many architects were there?Exactly.

A few.And only few architects used to do the builder's job.And so he said there's a new client.

And the kind of design that he's doing is quite bad.So why don't you go andmeet him?So I took his time and went to meet him.And when I went on the site, it was a site of Aum Chambers, which is there at Camps Corner, Aum Chambers.So I went and saw, and I just walked around, saw the plans, what he was doing.

And that guy is a Sindhi builder.Now, I had lots of Sindhi clients, because I'd worked for nearly about 8 -10 years in that office.So I knew how Sindhis look at jobs, look at everything.So when he came, I said, you see, if you let me design, I'll design it, a nice building, and I'll give you so many lakhs of rupees of profit.He says, how come?I said, I'll do this, this, this.

But he said, I don't have time.So on Friday morning, I told him, see now, tomorrow is Saturday.He gave me a time up to Monday.Up to Monday, if you show me your new design, I like it.I went back to my office, told my cousin that, see, that time we were only two people in that office also.

Seriously, that's why I'm going to ask.

And there were no computers, nothing.Sat, designed the building.Friday, Friday night.Saturday, Saturday night.Sunday, Sunday night.Drew all the plans, drew all the perspectives, everything.

Monday morning, I went back to my house to have a bath, came back by 1, 1 .30 after lunch, presented the

building to him.He loved it.I got the first job.Wow.That same job, when it was getting constructed, I used to go to the site every few days.

My cousin was not coming to that site.And one day, he came.I had gone up.And before that, the client had asked me, what color of, you know, on these columns, what color would you like to do?So I said, have black granite.When I'd gone up, he asked my cousin, he says, grey granite.

So when he came back, he asked me again, I said, do what you like, grey, black, do.That my cousin didn't like it.So on that point, black and grey, we differed.And then there was a little bit of, and I left.

For such a small.

Correct.So you can say that fate, I was very happy working there.But then I was virtually I had to leave.I had no great money.I had 35 ,000 in my bank account in that time, which I thought was a hell of a lot of money.And I was just getting a small office underneath the staircase.

One fine day, a guy comes and pats me and says, you need an office?I said, yeah.He took me to an old broken down building with all weeds growing, everything.And he says, take as much as you want.I took only two windows.And that's how I started.

Amazing story.

Amazing story.Very well.Let's now change the subject a little bit.Today, architecture is facing enormous challenges, like, you know, look at our cities are growing, so much, our cities are growing, and so much need to be built.And architect from future, the young architects who are coming from colleges, they have to be prepared.for the challenges they are going to face.

In your view, today's education system in architecture is they are doing the justice, they are preparing them or they are stuck to old theories and idealism.What's your view on that?

See, when a guy is getting trained to become an architect, he has to just learn the fundamentals.He doesn't have to learn or he doesn't have to, he doesn't even know what are the problems in that field.First, he has to understand the fundamentals.Once he understands the fundamentals, okay, that how a thing is built, how materials are working in conjunction with one to another, all that he gets to know.Then he has to understand the world situation, the country situation.Then he has to understand other fields.

farming, business, retail, pricing, okay, what salaries, then you have to start thinking about your cities and what is the condition, all of that for the guy to know.

by that time is a long time.

So let them come into the field.

And what is being taught, fine, you know, I'll tell you, I have seen, say 20 years back, kids coming out were different.Then kids coming out were a little different.Today, the kids coming out are completely different.

And they are very, very promising.The only trouble today is, but I would say that that in a way is they are absolutely right.They want to work only from this time to this time.

They don't want to slog like how we slogged.

So things are all, I think it'll take its own shape.And I'm sure that they will realize what is to be done and what has to be done.But today, Before they realize, we have to realize what is to be done.Because we are in that seat today.

And with so much experience and what you've seen, how our cities have to develop, it's in our hand.But we are not taking that stand.We are still trying and repeating what the West has done.The West did it for their conditions.Today, our conditions are completely different.Our population, which is the biggest asset, is the biggest problem.

Correct.

Okay?

Absolutely.

Yes.20 % of world's population, our land, our land, we don't have, you know, our country is a nice large country, but compared to the population, we have only 2 % of the land of the world.Now, look at other things, we have to do farming, we have to have forests, we have to have Wetland, we have to have hills, so many things have to be there.So how judiciously you are going to use your land is your future.And how judiciously and how you do your future cities is your future.But we cannot keep on doing the way the West has designed their cities.

The unfortunate thing, when any government body has to design a larger part of a city, they don't give it to Indians.They'll call foreigners and they will design it the way they have designed the city.And we are missing the bus.

So true.It means, do you advocate vertical urbanization?Is that you feel can save agricultural land, forest?Is that your advice?

See, all elderly people ask me this question.Once Kids from a small school had come.

I remember they'd come from cathedral school.And it was, I think, in the fourth standard or fifth standard.And they also asked me this question.So I asked them, just think, now this is my table.I have one file.Where will I put it?

She said, uncle, you put it here.Then I said on my table, I want to have a photograph.Say photograph my wife.I want to have a telephone.That time, those time, you know, there were no mobiles and all that.I have a paperweight.

So I have all that.Then from one file, I go to 10 files.So maybe I'll have two bunches of files, three, three, four, four.Now I have a hundred files.There is no, So he says, uncle, you put one on top of another.

So I told him that see, our city also is like that.Correct.Our city is only got this much place.

Land is limited.

Correct.There I have to have a hospital, there I have to have a play field.So this is my phone or my picture frame or something like that.And then I have to have my files also.So the same way.You don't have that much of land.

A small kid can say that go vertical, but we don't understand.But then there are other problems of going vertical.It's the cost, it's the time.So, you have to develop new ways of construction.But going vertical is the only solution, is the only solution.We still do our zoning, like, you know, police chowki, fire brigade, and we carve out small, small, small, small plots.

Gone are those days.We cannot waste our land.You have to do your zoning vertical.You have your police shocking.But what's wrong?You can't stay on

of it?Why does the fire brigade has to have a separate plot in a city?Why?You can have a fire brigade, you can have a police station, you can have another thing, okay?And on top, you can live.On top, you can have offices.

So you have to change your mindset.Things are completely different.And if you do not take care of your environment, that is your forest land, your wetland, You are doomed.You have to forget about making small, small plots, making bungalows.Those days are gone because the amount of people for whom you have to make houses.How many people in India have proper houses?

Half of them don't have it.Half of them live in slums and dilapidated buildings.where there is no proper sanitation, there is no proper.All of them are going to be having their own houses.So if you really, statistics say that the amount of building that you have to do in India, we have to make one Chicago every year.That's the amount of construction that has to take place.

But that doesn't have to be taken, done in the same way as how West did it.You have to devise your own way, how to make roads, how to do zoning, how to have your offices.All of that has to be the new Indian way.And that is going to show her to people like, you know, places like Africa and all.Once we grow, okay, this is our age.After 20 years, 30 years, 40 years, cities in Africa and all those places are also going to come up.

So, we have to set the tone.It's in our hand.

Absolutely, absolutely.While you are talking about it, I really appreciate a complex subject.The way you explained, so simplified version, like putting one file, another file.I'm just wondering, our cities are becoming less and less livable.You spoke about it right now, and very chaotic at times.Obviously, this is one of the solutions, vertical urbanization.

That is part of the story.Go vertical, leave your land for more greenery.For so many years, all our cities, have gobbled farmland.The farmland has gobbled the forest land.Now is the time that you have to let the forest come to the city.So how you're going to do that?

Just going vertical is part of the story.But how is the answer?

Very right.The forest has to come to the city.

Because you have already gobbled that.And you need that for proper environment.

I really appreciate the clarity of that.If environment is not protected, then we are gone.In your mind, what is stopping us?I mean, what is we are doing wrong?Why these things are not progressing the way you just spelled out?

See, there are certain things that unless and unless something really drastic happens, then only you'll realize that we have to do something.

Okay.Indore was one of the dirtiest cities.

that plague or something came about, suddenly they realized.And now it's the cleanest city.But up to that time, not that people didn't realize that it was dirty, but nobody got up.So something drastic will happen.Then only they'll realize, oh, right now, nahi nahi nahi, theek hai, theek hai, theek hai, theek hai, theek hai.You look at each and every city of ours, what the city was there previously, it was this much.

What was here was all farmland.Correct.We have expanded.And how we have expanded?We have given them the same FSI by which or sometimes you have increased the FSI a little bit by which the way the old infrastructure was with the old FSI.Now, you have given them more FSI.

So, you have destroyed that part of the city.The new city, you don't have the guts to give them looking at the future.Like say this part, you're giving them one.Now here, you should give them 20.But you'll say, how can we give 20?Yeh log mar jayega.

So you'll give them three, four.Nobody has got the guts to do the right thing.Politics come in the way.In an urban area, say today, you are a petroleum minister.You make a wrong policy.or for kerosene or something like that.

100 women will come with their kerosene cans and everything and protest around, you know, outside your house.Do it in any other field.The results are immediate.For an urban area, you take any kind of a decision.It should appeal to the people.That decision is completely wrong.

But the results are going to come about, the earliest is 8 to 9 years.Yeah, because you have made a law.You have to start now applying.You have to start getting your permission.All of that will take years and years and years.And then the result will come out.

You have to make a building.Making a building will take two years or three years.So the results will come out earliest after 10 years.Who made that policy?Nobody knows.The guy is gone.

You look at history of Mumbai.What happened?How it happened?How did Bangalore come about?Bangalore was

a holiday destination.

Mumbai forced all the people to go from Mumbai and start offices in Bangalore.You can ask Mr. Narayan Murthy when he wanted to set up a place in Mumbai.Office buildings were not allowed in Mumbai because we made that policy.We cut our own feet.That time Bangalore had no telephone, no electricity, No proper roads, nothing.We forced them to get out.

Mumbai, best airport, Mumbai.

So there is actually, since the impact is long term, somebody actually has to visualize this.And I agree, it will be very difficult.It will come from the leaders, not from the people, because people will not be able to see the full picture.And there is no pressure on the political parties or whoever involved there.

The last time they've changed the bylaws, not this time, the last time.They took out all the elevational treatment.They took out the tops of the building.Everything was taken out.It was taken out by the Congress chief minister and there was one bureaucrat.And we went to them and said, sir, you are spoiling each and every building that you admire today.

Every building has a top.Every building has a hairdo.You look at anything, Empire State Building, Chrysler, you look at your municipal building, you look at Taj Mahal Hotel, you look at VT building, everyone has, there has to be a glorifiedThere has to be that hairdo.You're taking it out.Then every building will be just boxes.

You look outside.In the last five years, what has happened?Does anybody have anything on top?No.Then you'll get a city which is a completely very, very uninteresting.We have been fighting, fighting, fighting.

But the politicians have to realize.I agree.

I agree.See, all It's a very interesting conversation, Mr. Contractor, but you have always broken the norms.Like, you know, I'll give some example of your projects like Hiranandani Gardens, Powai in Mumbai.This has really changed the way Indian imagined the township living.Even it became kind of a template, which many people try to replicate in the rest of the countries as well.What was going on in your mind?

What was the original thought to make that shift?

When we started doing work at Powai, The first buildings that we did were not classical.The first building that I did was Lake Castle.When we started Powai, Powai was a quarry land.People used to take out stone and all that, it was a quarry land issue.And there were no roads, nothing.It was neither the Western Corridor or the Eastern Corridor.

It was in the middle.It was a picnic destination.So when we first made the building over there, I had to put Powai on the real estate map.So I made that lake castle.I made lake castle which was some so many thousand feet long.That time there was no

were making only ground and one upper bungalow over there.We made a 22 -story building.We made it like a cutout.And when I went on the road and I saw the hills, I said, I'll make up such a big building.It'll cover up the hills.So I won't see the hills.

So I made two large cutouts.There were some 60 feet by 60 or 80 feet by 80.In physical form?No, no, in the building.Okay.So that from the road, I could see the hills.

Wow.

And everyone started saying, oh, arre, usme se plane jayenga.And once a broker takes it up.So what I'm trying to say, nobody realized probably where it was.With that kind of a building, everybody started talking.So I got people over there.Architecture is not only making buildings.

Architecture, the first and foremost thing is marketing.

Yes.

Analyzing what is what and how you are doing it.So that building was successful.Then Niranjan and Surendra, two brothers said, oh, we are giving you another sector, but we are not going to give you that much of money.to build a building.We want economical building.We don't want you to use a lot of glass.

We don't want to use granite.It's more expensive.So, how will you do it?So, I started doing.So, they said, no, no, no, not like this, not like this, not, okay.Because that, I was just talking to them.

One day, you know, see, it's all a boxing match.I keep on doing tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk, tuk.You can keep on doing-tuk -tuk -tuk -tuk.One day I gave him a knockout.What was the knockout?

I told Surendra, hey Surendra, how about making palaces for poor people?

He said, what is that?I said, see, all palaces are all classical.We make all classical buildings and make small flats.He said, have you gone mad?How will you make classical buildings in a 15 storey?I said, we'll do it.

Now, that knockout, and he said, yeah, that was a knockout.

That actually, in fact, has changed the entire real estate market.

Correct.So, and at that time, nobody was doing classical building.We studied all the classical orders.We studied all that.And mind you, the Hiranandani's also helped tremendously.They, from the other side, improved the quality of construction.

They did a lot of, you know, Hiranandani is what, I think, you know, it was like a lab.It was like a Hiranandani lab.We started making new kind of bricks.We started getting bricks from Goa.So many things we did.We employed, you know, Remedios, who was a concrete specialist.

Because previously what, how, there is just, you know, mixed concrete, so all that.And then we started constructing and with this palaces for poor people.

Amazing, amazing story.So, that was the knockout.Even that punch is still continuing.Another project, if I look at Gurugram for example, DLF 2, 3, 4 phases, especially cyber city, cyber city has become almost like aidentity for Gurugram.Everybody who lives in Gurugram goes to cyber city.

Even Dalit who lives in the nearby localities always go to cyber city.In your mind, these kind of projects set the benchmark for future Indian cities like cyber city?

Of course, of course.They definitely do.And they're also for When we first started making buildings, what they call, everybody calls, you know, the ship building and stuff like that.That was also, I think, I remember one day I was going to Khandala and Rajiv Singh called me up and he says, I think half his Gurgaon that time was nothing.There was only one small piddly road and we were making the first building.And he says, oh, you've seen the logo of Samsung, you know, laws and shape.

I said, yeah, yeah, laws and shape, you know.Why did we make a building like that?And from that, we developed that.And it was like, you know, you put your flag.So it's like a flag.Now today, buildings have gone up higher, higher, higher.

But everybody remembers those buildings who has seen that time of Gurgaon.Yeah, definitely.You have always been very open about discussing profit, margins and money in context to your work.In your mind, why it is so?Why people generally don't be so afraid?

To be very frank, I have not looked at money.all my life, I just looked at work.The first time I realized that I must take care of money was once I just, in my own office, somebody had brought a new client and he asked that client and I was working on something and I overheard them.So he asked what are his fees?So that guy said, he is a fool.And I could hear him talk.

And just because I was not after money, he called me a fool.And that was after quite some time of my...

Then I realized that that's not the way.

Let's look at money also.

And it was after that time that at least I became conscious that how much I'm going to get, what I'm going to get, what I'm not going to get.So that is how it is.

But I have always looked at only work.

Naturally, these kind of achievements can't be made until unless you are so passionate and thinking about the value creation, can't be achieved.You are at a very different level of architecture.

That's what I said, you know, and if you look at work and if you look at, you know, how fast you're going to give your deliveries, a lot of architects would not give the deliverable unless and until he's received.I don't look at that, though now things are different.How I built up was like that.Now today we have lots and lots of associates, lots and lots of groups, everybody.And today I think things have also changed.There are more corporates in the building now.

today than previously it was all on verbal.So things are different and I think we also have changed with the time and I think it's the right way.

Agree, completely agree with you.You have said you don't believe in signature style while you know most of the creative people normally have some style.Sometime you can look at a building and figure out who is the architect.But you have a very different view that there should not be any signature style.Why is that?

See, this also comes to me from my early days when I was working with Kharegarh.

I remember I was in my second standard, means I was still studying.I was working and a lady had come.She wanted us to design a bungalow and we did a very nice job.designed for her.I remember my cousin, you know, had done the bungalow, you know, vaulted, and it was a fabulous architectural solution.And when she came, we gave it, we showed it to her, and she liked it.

And she is looking at it, not liked it, she's looking at it.And she says, Oh, Mr. Kharagad, I'm not looking like for a building like this.So, you know, can you show me something else?She was very polite.

I remember she was a Sindhi lady from Pune.And at that time, who were making bungalows?Very, very few people.We showed her another design after a week or so.She still said, I don't like it.But then she opened her purse and she took out a photograph of a house, which was from house and garden, pitched roof, lots of bougainvilleas, ivy.

growing, shash windows, and all that.And she says, I would love to have a house like that.

And I was just standing behind my cousin.My cousin said, oh, this is not architecture.This is an old, this, this.He wanted to do a modern building.The lady quietly smiled, put that photograph back in her purse, and walked off.Thank you, thank you, and walked off.

We lost that job, okay?From that time, and then I asked my cousin, I said, why are we not doing this?She wants something and we are giving her something else.And in my small mind at that time, I realized that I think this is completely wrong.If as an architect, you are capable, you are giving a service, you're not an artist.Yes, you are an artist.

You have to make, you are an engineer.Who knows construction?You know.So you have to adopt the right thing for the right time and the right place.So I realized that as an architect, I should be able to do what is required and not what I want.It's like I invite you to my house.

You're a vegetarian and I give you a steak.

And I say, no, no, no, eat it, eat it, eat it.

You'll say, oh, thank you, thank you.And you'll walk off like that.You want this?I should be able to give you that.Now, your circumstances are different.You may have only this much of grains and a dal.

I should be able to make that dal chawal only in a nice way.So, what do you want?What are your resources?Where are you going to do it?All of that you consider and give him the right solution.So, over here, your solution will be completely different in a completely different style.

Over here, the guy wants to show off.He's got lots of money.There you don't give him that kind of a hut.You give him that.That's a great architect who is able to give here, here, here, and satisfy everyone.And that's my function.

Such a powerful insight to focus on the consumer and his requirement rather than forcing your own design on somebody.I really love this conversation.You have built an extraordinary body of work over decades.But in your mind, what was the real turning point?one project, one moment that you remember that this was the turning point?

See, turning points every day are different.At this time, the turning point was this.I took the right turn, came to the right situation.The next day, I got up.I'm going to some other place.There the turning point is different.

It's like phases.

Yeah.You know, every day there has to be a turning point.Mind you, sometimes the turn is wrong.It has happened.It has happened.but with God's grace.

grace, I would say that 99 .9 % of the time, the turning points have always been right.So turning points are every day, every, I would say every hour, you have to think and take the turn in the right manner.

Very right.Very nicely explained.Your buildings are often referenced, replicated, even debated across the industry.How do you see that kind of an influence?Is it flattering, worrying, or simply inevitable?

I think if somebody is trying to copy you, that's the best compliment that you can get.I'm happy that what I did, somebody else also would like to do it.And so it's well accepted.And I'm happy with that.

And it is not only like copying, but people also debate, reference them, replicate them.Talk about it.

There's a lot of criticism also.

Yes.

But I'm okay because what I did, I believe in it.I did it because I believe in it.And if I believe in it, and a lot of times for whom I did it, he also believes in it.He or she also believes in it.

He's accepted it.Some people don't believe in it.

That's not my problem.Like, I'll tell you, I did so much of work for Mr. Narayan Murthy for Infosys.And it was a great, great, great time.He used to give us a job, say, I meet him and he says, oh Hafiz, I want to do this, this, this.And he'll say, oh, let's have a presentation.And sometimes, you know, coming back from Bangalore or anywhere, I would be designing the building in the plane and giving it to him.

So what I'm trying to say, and each and every building of his was a nice contemporary modern building.

One fine day, he says that, Oh, I want to build a global educational center.And so I was very thrilled.I took a fabulous design.And you know, I It was a very nice contemporary design and I liked it and I showed it to him and I remember Rajneesh saying the same words when I did Osho Ashram.It's very nice but this is not what I'm looking at.

Though Narayan Murthy said it in a different way and then Narayan Murthy said that, oh Hafiz, Oh, have you seen all those universities in America?I said, sir, I studied.He says, oh, I want that Roman, Roman look.So I said, ah, classical.He said, no, Roman, Roman.And then he says, oh, send your person to Rome for three, four days, let him look around, and then design.

I said, sir, I know it, sir.I told him I had already done Hiranandani gardens.But what I'm trying to say is, that he felt that that building of histhough he advocated and he was such a great admirer of contemporary buildings, and we had done so many campuses for him in a superb contemporary style.Okay.All the modern materials, glass, steel, everything.

But he wanted a classical building.And I gave it to him.And he loved it.And mind you, Today also, when anybody goes to meet Mr. Narayan Murthy, he's done so many campuses.He's done so many things.He lives in Bangalore.

In Bangalore, we have done so many buildings for him.But he takes his visitor to Mysore to show him the Global Educational Center.

Amazing.Amazing.

And he loves it.

So, right place, right time, right choice.And for the person who wants it.

he is happy, then who the hell are you to say, no, don't do this.Though you are happy, be unhappy.Are you stupid?

Yeah.It depends, you know, what the consumer wants.Correct.

Yes.

You just mentioned about Osho, showing a design to him.

No, Osho had come to, I mean, Osho's people had come to me.It was in the beginning of my career.Okay.and I was really thrilled that he had selected me. I just I think had two years of my private practice at that time and I did the work for him and I gave it to him.means gave the first thing and they came and says, oh, Osho says it's very nice, but this is not what he's looking at.It happened once.

It happened twice.And I said, I want to meet him.I want to talk to him and ask him what he wants.He says, no, Osho doesn't want, Osho doesn't meet anybody.Huh?I said, then how the hell I design his work?

Then give me a brief.So what was a brief?They came.with a big thick book on architecture.I remember it was such a big book on architecture, such a fat book.A small yellow page on which it was written black, black on black, blue tinted windows.

And they came, opened that book and there was a small photograph the size of a stamp or larger stamp.It was a barn house taken at the time of virtually evening.And they said, Osho has said, look at this photograph, read this and design.

That's it.

So I thought, you know, I mean, when they said that, I saw the photograph, I read it.I closed the book and kept it next to my desk.And I said, I lost this job in my mind.And they left.So one fine day, I was working very late.It was, I think, three o 'clock in the night.

We had just finished work.And I suddenly heard one of my guy's cuttings, that time we were not getting mount boards and all that, so we used to stick everything on a ply and we used to color it black, polish it black and then stick drawings and all that.It was for another presentation.And I had gone to sleep and I suddenly heardcrack, crack, crack.I got up and I saw that.

And what I had read, black, black on black.I said, why does he want black, black on black?And I said, when you mix all colors, it becomes black.So then I said, why does he want blue tinted windows?No, before that I said, why does he want a barn house, barn house?I said, he doesn't want a barn house.

He wants pyramids.And why pyramids?Because pyramids, you know, anything you put under a triangular, a pyramid, you take an apple, you put an apple under a round thing, it'll stay for so many days.Put it under a pyramid, it'll stay for more.Yes.In the Second World War, I was told, the blades and everything, they should put it under a pyramid.

It'll stay for a longer time, sharper.So it would preserve.So I say he wants pyramids.Then came, why the hell blue tinted windows?So I made up my, I said, maybe when you get God realization, you see blue light, the first light.

Amazing.Amazing.

At three o 'clock in the morning, I got charged.I started, I called my guys, I cut black paper, stuck on black, this, that, blue tinted windows, then on black paper I made lines with pencil, black on black.I sent, the design was ready from 3 o 'clock, 7 o 'clock design was ready.I sent my guy in a cab and what came?4, 4 .30 I get a call.Orso loves you.

Orso wants to meet you.

My God.Amazing story.That's how the customer centricity can...

So just imagine.So that was...Amazing story.But I never met him.He kept on calling me.And I knew that if I once get into that ashram, I'll never come out.

So...

But...

We heard people love Osho, but first time we are hearing Osho love somebody.So that's a good outcome.

But I tell you, then I wanted to go and meet him.Then he was not well.Then he called me, then I had to go somewhere else.And I never met him.But it was a great place.And I've seen people, after we finished the ashram, the building, I've seen people coming, looking at that building and tears coming out of their eyes.

The power of that black, black on black is something superb.

Amazing, amazing story.Interestingly, you have worked extensively for government projects also, and also private sector as well.While there are very different environment in terms of, you know, conceiving a project and then execution, you in great detail spoke about importance of execution.Like, you know, you just mentioned that you've been on the site yourself, encouraging, motivating team.So how these two words are different, I mean, when you engage with a government project and in a private sector project.

See, anybody who enters my office, anybody, I don't ask him.

And to be very frank, I'm not that particular also.A lot of times I say, yes, boss.Yes, boss.Because I have not caught his name.

And I say, yes, sir.Yes, sir.To me, he's a customer.And I treat him like a customer.

I remember once one guy, Today, there are lots of corporates and all of that.

There was a time in 1980 and 82, the real estate was controlled by you know what.And one client had come, and I'm dealing with him and all that.And after he left, one of my assistants came and said, hey, you saw?He had a gun behind.Oh, my God.So to me, he is a customer.

You treat him well as a customer.Maybe he's rich, maybe he's poor.He is your customer.Respect him that way and design.Once a lady came and she's looking at me from far and she's saying, Mr. Contractor, you're a big architect, this, this.I said, Baba, what is it?

What do you want?In my office, today there is a guy who opens the door and all that.There was nobody.Unix used to come.They are welcome.So that lady who came and I said, what do you want?

She says, I'm abureaucrat.I am in the educational department.We want to make so many schools in the interior of Maharashtra.I said, very good.He said, no, my budget for a school is 1 lakh 10 ,000.

So I'm thinking in my mind, my God, 1 lakh 10 ,000, what the hell I'm going to do?

So I said, 1 lakh 10 ,000?

Ah, but you know, I also realize.So just make, we are making a small room.You make quantities and give it to me." I said, but this is a foolish thing.So then I asked her, where are those schools?Where is what?

So they were going to build in all the small villages.So then I said, one like ten.Why do you want a small hut?She said, they will all sit under the tree or anywhere.After the school is over, the teacher will lock all the slates and everything in that room.Lock it.

Then I said, if I can give you four classrooms, toilets, everything in one lakh ten thousand, will you like it?She says, fine.I designed the school in mud and stone, because in village, mud and stone is abundant.So, you may adjust a wall, five feet high, because the mother comes and leaves the kid So, the kid will play in that compound, it's closed.There is an old door which will bite.Every small village has a Jheri Puranawala.

I'll buy a door which will be there for 2000 -3000.I buy that.Two small cutouts.they'll also be where one side you know is the girl's toilet, one side is the boy's toilet and four bullies with a pitch roof, one or two trees in that compound.You get a school in one lakh ten thousand.She was fabulously happy.

Just imagine the impact this thought had.positive impact in the life of the students.

But the unfortunate thing is that I met that bureaucratic lady after about six, seven months.I said, hey, how are the schools coming?Oh, Mr. Contractor, I got transferred.But anyway, what I'm trying to say, a customer is a customer.He may be anything.To me, he's my client and I'm supposed to give him the best building design.

and the best product, maybe in wood, maybe in mud, steel, glass, brick, or concrete.What is appropriate, you will get it.

Amazing story, Mr. Contractor.

Thank you.

Now, we are moving to a question, but before that, let me tell you, we really admire and really appreciate some part of your work for very different reasons.All your work is great, but something which really is something which is very close to my heart and I am sure when our audience will hear about it they will also have the same feeling.I think you have worked extensively alongside the luxury projects like you just mentioned in the previous question that you have also worked for the schools but you have also worked for the affordable housing and soredevelopment.And this is a subject which many architects generally avoid.Many architects?

Generally avoid.Like if I am into luxury, then normally for slum redevelopment, probably is a difficult call for me, right?So what made you take that path, like having, you know, getting into this redevelopment?

See now, this is a very touchy question.And I have answered it in several ways at different times.

When I started my work, when I started dealing with lots of builders, builders was an untouchable commodity.A lot of architects will say, I don't work for builders.Okay.And big dons would say that.And people will appreciate how they've done.housing for a corporate in some far -off place, and they will show that as the housing solution.

But that is not a housing solution.A housing solution is in a city where you have scarcity, you have time limit, there is somebody who has come and said, oh, I want so many square feet, this, that, that.In a corporate sector, that housing, ample land, ample this, that is not.So, I used to say that this is the battlefield of architecture.And if you want to win a battle, you have to come to the battlefield.That is just

fencing you learn in an arena.So, coming to that is the necessity.Now, that is only for housing.Why I got into the slum redevelopment?The slum redevelopment is, I had the good fortune of going to a slum and I saw the way people were living.I thought that something has to be done.

Mind you, I have been working on to make a house in one lakh.I have been working on it for last nearly 30 -35 years.Every time I have missed the bus, I design, design, design and then it will come to, you know, say two lakhs, three lakhs and I miss the bus, miss the bus.I started doing it in new materials.I said it cannot be done in brick, concrete and all that.So I started doing in new materials.

That also, I will come to fire.And finally, that new material won't work in fire.So I missed it, missed it, missed it.So what I'm saying, giving an affordable house to every Indian is my motto.

Amazing.

Okay.

And I've been working on it.

When for the first time we did the slum redevelopment policy, I had gone I had not gone to my client, Dilip Thakkar.I told him he knew the housing minister at that time.that time, Suresh Dada Jain.He took me to him and I went to Suresh Dada Jain and told him, Sir, I have an idea.Let's do, we can give free houses to each and every slum guy.He says, how?

This, that, that.Suresh Dada Jain and my office I remember he used to come with us at six o 'clock in the morning.We used to go and see all the slums.We studied all the slums.We tabulated all the slums.And then we did a policy that for one house over here, you, the builder, because the money has to come.

If I'm saying I'm giving free houses to the slum dwellers, who's going to foot the bill?The government has got no money.So we made a policy.One square foot here, the builder gets one square foot to sell in the real market.And in city, it's 1 to1. Dharavi, it was 1 to some

2. And suburb, it was 1 to 1 .5.We went to Balasaheb.He was the main guy at that time.We presented it to him.He liked it.Mind you, Pramod Mahajan was there.

He didn't like it.Mr. Chief Minister was Manohar Joshi.He also didn't like it.Everybody is telling Balasaheb.Balasaheb nako kara.Balasaheb nako kara.

Everybody said no.Balasaheb was the only guy who said, nahi, mala karai chahiye.And he did that.And the thing came, Shiv, Shahi, Pramukh, you know, that was formed.And for every house of slum, you'll get this.And that's how the whole first imperial building came.

Mind you, when the imperial building was starting, we went on the site as the Bhoomi Puja.Saudav Thackeray was there, Dilip Thacker was there, I was there.Two ladies, Maharashtrian ladies with all their nose ring, this, that nine yard saree, they came.And one of the guy is nudging me like this and he's saying, you know what women do?I said, it's a good omen.You know, they had the thali and diva and all that.

And they said that, please come to Ganpati ji's mandir.There was a small mandir of Ganpati ji.So I said, I'm a good woman.Because whenever I used to go for my exam, my mother used to do tila and all that.So he says, nahi, yeh nahi hai.Kya hai?

Yeh aap log ke aarti lehengi.So I said, leh le do.He said, nahi, humeri aurat aise waise aarti nahi leti hai.Khali Khuda ki leti hai aur apne pati ki leti hai.My God.Main bola, mera kyu leti hai?

So that one lady who heard the conversation, she's saying, you know, what you've done to us.I said, what?He says, today we cannot go to toilet after sunrise and we cannot go to toilet before sunset because the toilets were all broken, this, that, you know.I said, what?Can you imagine?She wants to pee, you know, she'll just pee, you know, with a saree like that and, you know, anywhere.

in the... that.

I said, my God.

And mind you, mind you, okay, after the whole thing was completed, lots of people were criticizing, lots of people were criticizing, hey, you're doing this for the builder's sake, this, that, that, that, that, that, that.Not a single media in India covered that.But who covered it?New York Times made a two full page cover.Amazing.And they wrote about this slum redevelopment policy.

I never knew that the guy who had come to my office was from New York Times.And he had taken a complete thorough survey.Everything, everything, everything, everything.People who would be, you know, had no kitchen, nothing.Now they have their kitchen.Now they have their toilet.

It's a palace.People say, what is this 350?From where to where?It's a palace.Now, that is what it is. I am proud of what I'm doing for social housing.Right now, we made some 70 ,000 houses for Sitco.

I'm proud of it.My aim is a house, an affordable house for every Indian.I'm not bothered about you like my work.Okay.Somebody doesn't like it.Mr. Oberoi, Mr. Oberoi, the old man, when I was doing work for him, one day I went and showed him my work.

So, he used to always have a cigar and he said,Mr. Contractor, I've seen all your works.Some works, I like it.Some works, I hate it.So I said, sir.He said that?

Yeah, he said that.So I said, sir, that's the best compliment.He says, why?I said, sir, some works which you like, some other person hates it.And some work which you hate.That person likes it.

Absolutely.I work for everyone.So I will give you what you love.So that is one part of my career and policy.And the other is I must do something for the people of India where everyone can get a house, affordable house.And that is the biggest infrastructure that India can do.

Roads, railways, everything is very, very important.But if 1 .3 billion people have a house, he can go to toilet at any time.He can sleep undercover.Imagine if whole of this population works.Where India will be?Where India will be?

House for every Indian is the biggest infrastructure and it should be paramount.It should be paramount.Amazing.Amazing.

That's given me goosebumps when you talk about the story of that woman and she's coming to you and stayed with you.It is in your heart.It's in your mind.Absolutely.You can't imagine.You spoke about railway station and one time we heard that you actually said that you can redo the railway station for free.

Yes.Yes.It's very interesting.It became controversial also that time.

The thing is that a lot of people don't realize that sometimes what you want to do and That will change life of so many people.And if you do it for free, what's wrong?We had designed, we had studied so many railway stations.90 % of the railway stations have got two tracks.So many railway stations have got so many tracks.We had designed steel structures for all of them.

And we said that so many steel companies will make these steel structures and keep it ready.So you have to just buy those.And we had done three, four designs.With that, all railway stations would be revamped in one year.That was our idea.But then it took a different somersault and never happened.

This is a sad thing.

This is a sad thing.

And I agree with you.Railway station today, otherwise railway journey are actually very pleasant.But a lot of people doesn't prefer that because you just explained right.There's a funny story.It seems once you went to a client and you have shown a drawing upside down, like ulta, and the client actually thought that's the right design and started liking it.So is that true?

Yes.absolutely.No, but I'll tell you with that client story.I'll tell you another story also.See, it's like this that when I just told you that guy had come with a gun, huh?Okay.

And he was my client like that.There are so many guys who come and we have to approach them.They don't know anything of anything.And this, that upside down, huh?Was when I was working with my cousin.Early days.

Yes.And we had designed a building for Mr. Ramchandra Agarwal in Kafparet.He had to leave and he had to sell the plot to some another guy.I won't take his name.Sorry.And he said, go and meet him and show him.

So we went.And the way he was having his lunch and all that.Well, it was quite a little funny way.So my cousin was a little bit upset.And we had done only two buildings at that time.So I had taken all the photographs taken with him, with me.

And then he said, acha, koi building banaya hai?We said, yes.Then he says, Pedder Road gaye ho?I'm talking about that time when Pedder Road was the ultimate.I said, we said, yeah, yeah, yeah.Then I showed him one photograph.

He's looking at it and my cousin was getting very upset.He saw the other photograph.It was only one building, same building from angle.He's doing che che.Three, four times he was doing che che che and he threw the photographs off.Luckily, not that intentionally, one photograph was upside down.

It was my mistake.So I gave it to him.My cousin was trying to tell him that it was upside down.But he's looking at it and said, yeh bahut accha hai.On that building, upside down and trees hanging.And we got the job.

So do we have a building upside down somewhere?But to continue with that, with what kind of clients I have worked?I'll tell you one thing.I was working with one of the guys like that.And we're doing that building for him.And we did one type, another type, this, that, that.

And finally, got settled on one.And he said, Hafiz, model banao.Model banao.So I gave it to one of my guys to make a model.And every few days, he'll say, model tayaar ho gaya?Model tayaar ho gaya?

He said, model maker, sir, banatam.One fine day, the model maker is calling me and says, sir, his people came and took away the model.I said, it was complete?He said, no, it was not complete.But he took away the model.And in half an hour, I get a phone call.

Hafiz sir, abhi kabhi idhar aajao.And he was a very violent client.So I said, my God, what must have happened?So I go to his office, and he was a very violent guy.All his people are all standing in this one side like that, you know, seriously.The model is there on the table.

His feet are there on the table.And I'm opening the door, and he's saying,Hafiz sahib, terrible.So I got, but then I saw his hand, he's doing like this and he's saying terrible.So I also saw it the model and says terrible.He wanted to say terrific.

So what I am trying to say, I have worked with those kind of clients and satisfied them.At the same time, I was working with Tatas and everyone.So you should know which turn to take.So, terrible.Terrible.

So, next time we'll say terrible.It could be anything.It could be terrible.

When he said terrible, I heard the word was terrible.I said, my God, I saw that.And I also said, terrible.

I think that your skill of observing people came to help you that time.In today's world, we hear a lot about artificial intelligence.And in architecture also, the uses are increasing.How are your views about it?

I think it's a great tool.Where it is going to take us is I am not able to answer.But I can tell you one thing that it'll be very, very good for the industry.And it'll be a Game changer?In the end, it will be a very happy situation.Though, you'll have to change your way, the way you work.

Speed will increase tremendously.And we have already seen that the speed is increasing tremendously.What we were taking, you know, one, one day, 12 hours, 14 hours to do, now it can be done in a jiffy.So it's good.It's good.

Like you mentioned, it can be done in a jiffy, but while construction, constructing a building, there are also safety aspects.For example, fire safety, structural safety.

No, no, no, my dear.You're talking right now, I'm talking about designing.That is one thing.Now you're going on construction.That's a different thing.Now, with all this thing, we'll design it, we'll design it faster, this, this, this, this, this.

Who will construct it is another golden question.Maybe now in the next, say, five years, 10 years, you'll see robots constructing your building.which they'll construct maybe night and day, 24 hours, everything.That's a different thing.We have not come to that.We'll very soon come to that also.

But that's different.Wait for it.It will happen.We'll see about it.

You have a very progressive view of new things happening.Now we'll have some lighter conversation maybe, a rapid fire round with you.Not in one word, but in a short answer we'll expect from you, Mr. Contractor.My first question in rapid fire round, if not an architect, what you be?Not the army officer, anything else you have to say?No, no, army officer.

Okay, great.One trend in Indian architecture that you think is completely overrated?

See, today I feel anything and anything for architecture,the interiors, the interior field is getting merged and that is really overrated.Interiors, I can change every second day, but that is getting overrated and that is really overpowering architecture.People are looking at that.People are looking at Foreigners, foreigners, foreigners.That is also overrated.

Now for that, I can tell you some very nice stories, but I won't like to say that.Okay.

See, we as Indian architects are very, very capable.Absolutely.And we can give better than anything.A lot of Indian clients, To a foreigner, they will give this latitude, that latitude, that latitude.To us, they'll come and say, I want it tomorrow.I want it the day after tomorrow.

OK?But with that, you take your time.Take your time.

No, no, no.

They'll first give him a deposit.Take this, take that.Fee, 10 times more to us.You give us money, so at least work now.Different yardsticks.So these are things in that, but we as Indians, we are, we will win.

Don't worry.

Absolutely.Absolutely.Absolutely.One rule of architecture, you love breaking.

The right time comes, the situation comes, we are not breaking.We are adapting, which you may say is breaking.Why should I break?I'll adapt.

Absolutely.Great perspective.Glass facade in Indian climate, do you think it's a genius or madness?

Not a single material is bad.Let's be very clear.When people were building in stone, okay, old buildings, look at it.stone walls, this, that, that.We started doing it in brick and concrete.Everybody started criticising.

I remember my old grandmother used to say, oh, look at those walls, such nice dharkam wall, you know, solid wall.Now we are doing it in this.That generation never saw glass.Now from this, the glass is coming and everybody is criticising.

Glass is the material of the future.

Do not criticize.Use the material in the right manner.And I'm not saying concrete is bad.I'm not saying steel is bad.Use it in the right way.Make use of the new materials.

Glass, when you go high, it's, you know, lighter, better.What a nine inches wall was doing, now, you know...Few mm.No, no, no, not few mm.Two or three layers of glass.They are doing it.

There's nothing wrong.Use it in the right way.Never criticize any material that this is wrong and this is bad.

You have used it in the wrong way.

It is bad.You use it in the right way.It's the material.that you have to...

It's the manner that matters.One thing you hope architects unlearn.

One thing you hope architects...Architects unlearn.Don't think that you are the big boss.You're not the big boss.You're just one of pawn in the whole industry.

Wow.Amazing perspective.Your customer centricity, your love for the country, your passion to support the Andhra Pradesh.It's amazing.It's a great story.We have almost come to the end of our podcast now.

A few more questions and then we'll end.You once said, I dream and think buildings.For me, my work is what I love the most.

Absolutely.

There's no other hobby, you said.

I don't have any other hobby.My work is my hobby.I enjoy, you know, when I'm designing it, you know, that's my love.It's like listening to music.Yes.Not that I don't listen to music.

I listen to music.A lot of people ask me what kind of music.I like all kinds of music.I like all kinds of dresses.

There's not a single thing that I hate.Do you take breaks like vacations or something like music you mentioned?Vacations are I like it.

I like going and seeing places and stuff like that, because that's also where you learn a lot.

Yes, sometimes.See, after more than five decades of building cities, skylines, homes, what gives you a genuine sense of meaning today?

Think about the world when the world's population will besay 13 million billion sorry 14 billion what will happen think about it and it'll happen medicine maybe after a few years you can go and buy like how you're buying crocin you can buy heart from a shop you can buy kidney from another shop this that you know all these kind of things will happen people will start living maybe 140 150 population will increase.Maybe population doesn't increase from one side, but you'll get more and more old people, all of that.But what people were living in, say, 100 square feet, now they will require 1000 square feet because they want some place for sleeping, some place for reading, some place for listening music, all that, which were not there.What will happen to the world at that time?Think about that and start making policies, start designing for that.

Do not waste your material.If you can make a house in 100 cubic meters, don't use 110 cubic meters.Now, that's the kind of thing that architects should do.Not go with style, not go with, you know, that is the real requirement and people also should appreciate that kind of an approach.Today, everything, fashion, this, throw away this, throw away that.No.

Use your material in the most judicious manner.That is the answer.

This is what you want to propagate and contribute to.Absolutely.

Maybe, sometimes, you know, I may also miss it.I'm not doing it.But the way, washing hands to having a bath to everything, saving water, saving every material.

Amazing.

Because it's a very good saying, you leave the world the way you would like it to be left for the future generation.Correct.Because you're borrowed it from your kids, not from your father.Because if you leave, it's like, you know, somebody who's taken money on loan, he dies, and the poor son has to pay the interest or pay the, that should not be the way.We all are living like that.

Amazing.You're borrowed from the kids, not your father.Yes.So insightful.

And that's an African saying.It's not an American saying.Okay.It's an African saying.Okay.

Amazing perspective.

Leave it for your future generations, the way you would like it to be left for you.

Absolutely.Absolutely.So true.You have received some of the highest recognition in the country, including the Padma Bhushan.How do honors like this impact the sense of responsibility as an architect?

See, first of all, I'm very lucky that the country has honored me and I'm really thankful for that.There are no two words about it.And with that,

you start looking at things in a different perspective.Also, you look at it in a very, very responsible manner.So it goes hand in hand.And I really feel that what I'm wanting to do, that is a house, an affordable house for every Indian.Right now, also, we are working on some new materials.where you don't have to do this, you don't have to do that for a building to come up in so much time, so much cheaper.

If that thing comes, I think I have done my part of the job.

Amazing story.See, last question become completely irrelevant.Still, I'll tell you what was the right last question.The question was, we don't want you to retire.Actually, we don't want to retire at all.looking at your passion, the purpose in life.

I think you should continue working with the same passion and energy.And you will inspire so many people.Sitting here, talking to you has generated so many positive thoughts in my mind to do better for the society, better for the people, just by having an hour long conversation with you.So I don't ask this question at all.You should never retire.But I'll ask you another question.

When you look back in your life, and everybody does, How would you like to be remembered for scale, for design, or for the impact you have created?

See, this thing about thinking about people that they will remember, few days they will remember.What you have done and left, if that is giving a good story.

and that is helping people, that is the best thing.You are a small fry, like you know that Magatra comes in for two hours and dies.

We are like that.

Nobody is going to remember you.

What came, gone.But what you have left, what kind of buildings, what kind of things you are talking about, if that thing goes and makes future generation happy, That is what has to be remembered.Amazing.Amazing.

Thank you so much, Mr. Hafiz Contractor.My pleasure.It's a captivating, engaging conversation that we had with you.Thank you so much.That's it from this episode of Making a Difference, a Havels podcast.I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did.

Until we meet next, keep making a difference, big or small, around you.Thank you.