Epstein Served Me Up For Trump's Sick Pleasure | The Daily Beast Podcast

Two years ago, I agreed to be in this documentary about Julie Campbell and the making of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue, which is on Apple Prime, and it's called Beyond the Gaze. It took two years for them to edit. And then months before the premiere of the documentary, they reached out to me and said, hey, we left in that part where you said you were groped by the president United States in front of Jeffrey Epstein. I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast. And on Friday, we get the release of the Epstein

file, something, as you know, at the Daily Beast, we have been demanding. And my co host on Inside Trump's Head has been beating the drum for years at this point. Another person who's been beating the drum for the release of the Epstein files and who had personal time with Jeffrey Epstein because she dated him and he took her to see his then best friend Donald Trump is the former supermodel Stacey Williams. She's joining me today for a conversation that reflects again on that peculiar incident and unpleasant incident she had with Jeffrey Epstein when he took her to Donald Trump's

office, and the fallout from what it was like to be someone who dated Jeffrey Epstein before realizing that there was something fundamentally wrong with him. Stacey, welcome back to the Daily Beast podcast. I wanted to sort of start at the beginning of your story because you dated Jeffrey Epstein, you met his then best friend, Donald Trump, you went to Trump Tower with Jeffrey Epstein.

But before we get into the specifics of that, in the very week that the Epstein files are finally we hope going to be released, I'd love to sort of step back and understand your journey as a young woman coming from a farm in Pennsylvania to the peak of the modeling industry. You were all over Sports Illustrated.

You were famous. You were a model. You were tall. You're still gorgeous. You were gorgeous as a young woman. Can you give us some of your journey?

I'm trying to get the modeling world in perspective so people understand quite what Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein were doing.

Yeah, so I think that, as I mentioned when we spoke before, you know, it's a tremendous opportunity to become a top model, you know, especially when you come from sort of normal middle class, you know, backgrounds where, you know, my background was I was in high school, I was from rural Pennsylvania, I was working a minimum wage job in the late 80s, I was doing fast food. I worked as a custodian, and minimum wage was $3.35 back

then. And then I got discovered by someone and I did a modeling job in Philadelphia, which isn't the glamour kind of elite access that I moved on to rapidly once I got to New York, obviously. But still, I got paid, I think it was like $1,200 for the day to do a department store catalog. And you know, that's just extraordinary.

I mean, you know, my mother grew up without indoor plumbing until she was 12. And my grandfather was United Mine Workers rep for the anthracite region in Wilkes-Barre coal mining. So imagine that background that I had and I was scrubbing toilets one day for minimum wage and then literally within six months, I was, you know, Azzedine Alai was fitting clothes on me and I was doing editorial shoots for Details Magazine and Mademoiselle.

And I think the first week I got to New York, I did an episode of The Cosby Show and a Lee Jeans commercial. And I just, you know, my bank account was filling up and I was amongst all of these really fascinating people. There were so many of them at the time. So you know, it's like Dorothy, you know, going from black and white to color in some ways,

but then, you know, the wicked witch was there, and there's the dark side, and you're, you know, when you're into the industry, you know, you wanna take advantage of the money and the travel and all the good things, but there were, the industry was loaded with sexual predators.

I attracted people, obviously, like Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. And so it was a lot to negotiate. And on top of it, we're very, very young. And I was particularly young for my age.

Can you take us back to the day that you were spotted by someone who said, you know, how did that conversation go? And, you know, did you have a sense of, oh, my life is going to change dramatically?

Yes. So I think, you know, people had said off and on for years, oh, you know, you're 5'10 and you weigh 50 pounds, you should become a model. You know, when I wasn't being called beanpole and olive oil in school, there were adults who would always say, no, you're Model S, you have this thing. And I was like, oh, interesting. It was a little hard to believe because I was getting a different message from classmates. But, and a lot of models tell the story,

as you know, you've worked with so many. So I was at the mall, of course, where else would I be in the late 80s? And with my best high school friend, we were outside of the Orange Julius. I don't know if you remember them.

I don't remember. What was the Orange Julius? Was it a chain?

Yeah, it was a chain. And they made these like, it was like orange juice mixed with vanilla ice cream. Of course it was.

Of course it was.

Right?

And they're actually delicious. And so, and I was there with a friend and a woman came up to her, I guess, who had a model, who was a neighbor of hers that had a model in Philadelphia and said, you know, your friend could be a model. She should really, she could go make a lot of money and contact this photographer in this agency. She gave me the information and I took the leap and I reached out.

And that's where it started. I got work right away. Wow. And so when you moved to New York and when you were working in Paris, who did you have as a kind of – I mean, were there chaperones? Who did you have to lean on for advice? Yeah, there were no chaperones. It was the Wild West, you know. We didn't have chaperones. We didn't have anyone warning us. I didn't know what a roofie was. I was roofied in Paris. The first year that I was there, I got myself out of the situation. What happened? So, you know, when you get to Paris, let me back up before I get into the specifics of

my story, but this is relevant to the picture you're trying to paint, right? And the story you're trying to tell here about the sort of like the yin and the yang of being a model and being in the industry. I went to Paris, what could be more exciting? I'm working, my first job there was for French Vogue with Norman Parkinson.

I saw Polaroids of us together. I was a teenager, it was great. And we were at the Crayon. We shot it in the presidential suite of the Crayon.

Which is a gorgeous hotel.

And then I went over and met Azedine Alaia, and he was fitting clothes on me and putting me in a show and paying me in clothing. So it's dreamy. The artistry is incredible to be up close to that type of genius and everything. So that wasn't lost on me. And in one of the most beautiful

cities in the world. So there's the light, okay? Right. So you're living the dream. And one part of it, you're absolutely living the dream. And also, did you have a sense at the time that models were almost, I think they were bigger than actresses, that the models, you saw them everywhere in magazines when magazines were a thing, you saw them on ad campaigns. I mean, it was peak model. Yeah, it was. I think that sort of really blew up by the mid 90s, for sure.

So, and I started late, you know, I moved to New York the fall of 86. So by the time my career was sort of starting to take off and I was starting to do well, that supermodel movement happened. But to be fair, the supermodel was created by Julie Campbell from the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue with Cheryl Teagues and Christie Brinkley and everything. That's what Beyond the Gaze is about, the documentary that I'm

in that sort of launched my disclosure and everything else that's happening. But so to get back to the story, it's Azzedine Eli, it's Norman Parkinson, on the balcony of the Presidential Suite at the Crayon for French Vogue, just exquisite. And then on the weekend, there was this group of Playboys

that used to know all the models, knew where all the models' apartments were, and they would say, well, let's take the girls, you know, these lonely girls, teenagers who are here and don't really know anyone and don't speak the language and are probably homesick, you know, and, you know, let's invite them to this club or this party or this dinner or whatever.

And you think, well, I could sit here in my apartment or, you know, go to the museum alone or whatever, but I kind of want to be around people and so each these are the only people you know and they knew that you know and so the example of when I got roofied was this notorious group of Playboys and there is overlap with this group and Epstein I might add and Jean-Luc Brunel and

They invited us all to a I think it was a Prince or Rolling Stones concert I remember and I didn't drink. I didn't drink or do drugs at that point. A lot of us don't when we get there, you know? And, or when we start in the industry. And they kept urging all of the models.

They kept saying, come on, handing us drinks, beers. Come on, drink, and I said, I don't drink, I kept pushing, I don't drink. Then finally I said, oh my God, all right, okay. And I took some of the beer and I threw just a little bit back to shut them up. And I put it down and then it was time to go and I said, okay, I'm gonna go home. And I remember it was starting to rain

and we piled in, there were like two cars. One was a Mercedes station wagon. I don't remember what the other was and there were models and playboys jumping in saying, no, we're going to, um, I'm going to leave this person's name out, but world famous human being, um, with a massive house on Avenue Montaigne and we're all going to go there for dinner. Um, and I thought, I don't want to go there for dinner.

And I was feeling poorly at that point. I was feeling nauseous and a little dizzy. Something wasn't right. And so I said, I remember it was starting to rain and I had jumped in the back of the station wagon part, the, where the, what do you call it? The hatch, the hatches.

Right, the hatchback.

And I said, pull over. And I just started yelling, pull over and let me out. Something was wrong. And I felt like I was maybe going to lose consciousness or something. I just felt horrible. How frightening. And I said, let me over, let me out, let me out now. And they did, they argued with me. I said, no, no, no, we're going to go to dinner. And so I jumped out. I made it home. I don't remember. I remember it was drizzling and I was up about, I don't know, 12, 15 hours later, and I was vomiting.

So I know other women who did go there to dinner that night. I know other women who had gone to dinners to that place. And they, most of them have been raped. So this is the other side. And this is just one little, this was common. So it's a weekly occurrence in those circles and in Paris. Heather It was a weekly occurrence that girls would get roofied and then be raped. Roofied or raped or assaulted or it was just part of the landscape and part of what you had to navigate in order to have the $10,000 workday, the L'Oreal campaign, the, you know,

very, very common, more common than I thought, you know, I know there are a few models out there say I feel terrible, none of this stuff ever happened to me, perhaps I was a honeypot. And I think that's true. I think there's some that were able to, maybe were so kind of sought after had so much immediate power in the industry that no

one wanted to mess with them. But you know, but then again, I know a couple of friends who are massive stars, hundreds of magazine covers who were raped by some of these guys. So there's no rhyme or reason to it. It's not just the sort of marginalized quasi-escort girls who are maybe dragged out of Eastern Europe being promised a bunch of things by agents who were really only planning on trafficking or trafficking adjacent them,

which is introducing them to powerful rich men. So you know, I don't think I understood until I came forward and started getting calls from other former models reaching out to me saying they wanted to say something or want to share an experience with me. And then I was floored as they told me that they were raped. I just it's blown me away since I started actually even back in 2016 when I started

talking about this on the heels of me too. I've been floored by how many women I worked with were are rape survivors from the industry. Wow, how very, very disturbing. Yeah. And, of course, Jean-Luc Brunel, who you mention, died, as Jeffrey Epstein did, by suicide in jail, having been accused by many women at this stage of rape. So, Stacey, fast forward, you move to New York York and you become friendly with Jeffrey Epstein. Take us through that friendship and his friendship with Donald Trump.

Yeah. So I was at the time that I met Jeffrey Epstein, I was with Next in New York, which was owned by Faith Cates. And she was friends with Donald and with Jeffrey. And she introduced me to Jeffrey. She took me to a dinner one night on a Sunday night with a couple other models, I don't

remember who was there, and some other men, businessmen. And we had dinner on the Upper East Side. And that's where I first met Jeffrey and started speaking to him. And Faith Cates, as I mentioned, did step down last week because she is in a bunch of emails with Jeffrey, and it appears that they were spending a lot of time together or remained friends post-Florida conviction.

And was the implication that she was somehow servicing him with girls, was that your experience of her? Did she—do you think that she was serving him up with young women to sleep with?

I don't know what her intentions were. I can only share that she asked me if I wanted to go to this dinner one night with other models. And Jeffrey was there. And that's how I started dating him, which led to obviously months later, him walking me into Trump Tower to be groped, assaulted by Donald Trump, while the two men stood there and walked and talked, you know,

as it was happening. Right. So for people who don't know your story, Donald Trump groped you in front of Jeffrey Epstein, who you were supposedly dating at the time. And in retrospect, you realize that they had probably set this up in advance.

Yes, yes, it made sense afterwards, because I realized the fact that he really, as we went out on the walk, he kept sort of directing me towards Trump Tower and said, well, let's just drop by and see him. And the fact that he was so angry afterwards, as I As I've shared over the months that I've been telling my story, Jeffrey knew that I was known as combative and I had agents and even some fashion editors saying to me, like, don't be so combative with these pervert photographers and, you know, don't be so aggressive and don't, you know, aggressive and combative was like not allowing for, you know, groping, touching, you know,

all kinds of behavior that's actually illegal. Let me just get this straight, because I had, as you know, 12 years in the fashion magazine business. So fashion editors were telling you when photographers were putting you in threatening positions or asking for sex that you should just go ahead with it or certainly not be as combative

to fight the photographers off.

Yes. When I would be working with editors, they would – I mean, listen, there's one very famous fashion photographer. He was notorious for when he'd be standing there shooting and he would take his penis out and just let it hang there while we were on set, while he's photographing us. And the editors were standing there and it was just like, you know, the message was always

don't make a big deal out of it, you know, he's just being funny, you know, he's just

boys will be boys.

So not funny.

There were editors that gave that impression. There was a fashion, there was a booking editor, Elle Magazine, who looked at me at one point and said, when I was up for a job, she goes, you know, Stacey, I have to be honest with you, when we go on a trip, you want to take someone who's going to be fun.

Wow. Yeah, message loud and clear. I wasn't fun. You didn't want to see a photographer standing with his penis hanging out of his pants? Believe it or not, married to... Anyway, I will end it there. So, I think, you know, a lot of this behavior was sanctioned. And the agents would say, look, I'd say, look, I'm not going to sleep with these people. I looked at John Casablancas and I said, I am not going to sleep with X, Y, and Z. It's not going to happen. And he said, no, I'm not telling you, but just don't be so direct with them.

Don't be so like, don't talk to them the way you talk to me, like direct, like equal is what he was saying. You know, he was saying like, like, convince them that there's a possibility you're going to sleep with them. I said, if I do that, you know, trust me, they'll see right through it. It'll be like Carol Burnett. I can't, I can't, I don't have that. I don't have the fibers of whatever that is to do that and make it believable.

So the industry in general would send messages to us, maybe not necessarily commanding that we sleep with people, although I know other models have had those stories or been forcibly raped, but at a bare minimum, it was like, don't make waves, go along with this obnoxious predatory behavior. It's part of the game.

So when Jeffrey Epstein took you to Donald Trump's apartment in Trump Tower, you think that he set you up because he knew you were feisty, Trump was going to grope you and you

might fight back?

Yes. Yes. So I shared this with Jeffrey. I shared my frustrations with him. And I said, and he knew that even probably during that period, I'd probably just mace someone or punch them in the face on a subway or something that, you know, it was like, it was guerrilla warfare, you know,

the streets, the studios, the agencies, it was guerrilla warfare. And so I would express that to him, and so he thought it was hilarious. He was kind of actually intrigued and found it fascinating that I was so combative, and I think that was just like

a really fun game to say, okay, well let me deliver you to this guy who, as per Access Hollywood, you know, truly believes he can get whatever he wants, do whatever he wants, and nothing will happen, and that's what happened. He did it, you know, it was so hidden in its brazenness when he was groping me in broad daylight

and assistant was walking by, I absolutely froze. You know, but as I've said, if it had happened on the subway or a dark alleyway, I probably would have become more reactive and probably fought, I know I would have fought, I would have fought him off. And Jeffrey Epstein, your date at the time, did nothing. No, he kept looking at him and talking.

And so, you know, and that's what the energy, the way he was like staring and watching and continuing to converse with Trump with whatever they were talking about, remember, but I do remember little snippets of Trump saying, oh, yeah, her career is on fire. What you know, that like thing that he does. Everything's the best and you know.

And Jeffrey just kept, he didn't intervene. He watched it and then he raged at me in the elevator and on the way down that I allowed it to happen. So, you know, either it was some sort of twisted game and he didn't get the result he wanted. Maybe it was a bet. I don't know. But I'm confident that that is what occurred. So since we spoke, which was the summer, and we had more than 6,000 comments from people astonished by your story, appalled to hear about the incident

between you and Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump, and a lot of people telling similar stories, not obviously involving those two men, but men in their lives. So much has happened. We finally have the release of the Epstein files.

What has it been like for you having constant drumbeat of Epstein for the last sort of five months? You know, it's again, the yin and the yang. I am thrilled for the survivors that this is finally getting the attention that it deserves, that we're nearing maybe some justice. That said, it's sickening that it took this long. It's sickening that, I mean, you know, the Speaker of the House shut down, you know,

Congress to avoid a vote on this thing. The extent that the White House and the Trump administration has gone to keep truth and justice from happening makes me sick. You know, that said, they haven't been able to deflect. They haven't been able to bury this thing. And that gives me hope.

And what would you say to the women who haven't come out yet? What would you say to those who who have buried all this and are daily being assaulted by the news coverage of it? You know, disclosure is so complex. It takes you know, it takes everyone, however long it takes to be comfortable enough to feel strong enough to survive disclosure, and the scrutiny and the backlash that comes

at you when you disclose. You know, I've had a lot. I've had mostly warm, supportive, caring words sent my way. And then, you know, I was called a liar by the White House and others. So it's a big, scary step to take. So I don't and I wasn't ready to take it for years myself. I think the primary reason when I speak to other survivors who haven't come forward is their children.

These women are protecting their children. They don't want to draw this into their lives. And so, you know, I can understand that. What was part two, by the way? I had another thought that you just said. You were talking about, oh, you know, the drumbeat of it just being endless.

Very few people have a news story that touches so personally on their lives, go on for so long in public. I mean, it's one thing, I don't know, what am I trying to say? It's one thing to be in a fire

and the fire is covered on the news. It's another thing to be at the center of something which goes on and on and on and impacts the most important man in the free world, Donald Trump. Yeah, it's pretty nuts, right?

I mean, you mentioned that. I appreciate that you said that the first time we spoke, because I am the only hybrid that I know of that's come forward. It's my understanding that there are many of us, but the other ones aren't comfortable.

So if that's true, you know, I understand why they don't want to. I'm living it. You know, that said, it would be lovely if I weren't the only one out here. Well, we interviewed another model, and I promised I would get you together and I must connect to you after this podcast. I will. Cleo Glyde, who had a similar experience where she spent a lot of time with Jeffrey Epstein

and he made her dress up as a nurse and go to Donald Trump's apartment with another friend of hers also dressed in a short white dress saying, oh, Donald will think it's hilarious that I've got two nurses with me. So, do you have any sense of what will be in these famous Epstein files, if anything? What is your expectation or what have you been led to believe will be in them? I can't speculate. I mean, we've seen the photos of, we've seen the flight logs. I was posting the flight logs on Twitter

when I used to be on the site before it crashed and became a dumpster fire. Years ago, I was waving my arms about, you know, the flight logs about their relationship all the way back in 2016. I posted links to the flight logs.

They were public information. So much of this stuff has been out there and like, dribs and drabs and drops here and there. The photos, him walking around New York with Woody Allen, for instance. So, so I know as much as everybody else does. In terms of in terms of what is in the files. I'm hoping that the parameters of the act are solid enough that any redaction purely to keep sex abusers and predators from being embarrassed will keep that from happening.

But I guess we'll see. I guess we'll see. So, you mentioned that you first came out in 2016 to talk about your experience.

What has changed in your life since you raised your head above the parapet?

Yeah. So, just to be clear, I started speaking about what happened to me or about confirming Jeffrey and Donald's relationship in 2016 off the record to multiple sort of legacy media outlets that you would know of.

You can find me in Vanity Fair, Washington Post, lots of other things. What I'm talking about when I was trying to wave my arms about it in my own kind of quiet way on my own social media was, for what it's worth, this person's running for president. He was best friends with this guy.

And here's a link to some flight logs. And I was doing it on social media, highlighting just the existing facts about Jeffrey, just because it was driving me crazy. But I didn't come forward publicly and speak to national media about it and give the specifics about the assault that happened in Donald's office until last fall.

OK.

And what made you come forward last fall? So I what prompted it was that two years ago, I agreed to be in this documentary about Julie Campbell and the making of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue, which is on Apple Prime. It's everywhere now. And it's called Beyond the Gaze. And I had disclosed during an interview for that documentary what had happened. And, you know, I forgot about it. It took two years for them to edit. And then months before

the premiere of the documentary, they reached out to me and said, Hey, we left in that part where you said you were groped by the the United States in front of Jeffrey Epstein. And the premiere was happening two weeks before the election in the fall. And I was a little concerned that it was like, you know, getting media coverage. I mean, I was there with all these other supermodels, you know, at these premieres and promoting this film, knowing that that was a pretty loaded thing to be coming out two weeks before the election.

And so I spoke to some, you know, some folks on the documentary about it and said, I think like I need to give more context to this. And that is why I decided to just close. For those who didn't watch your podcast when we talked in the summer, can you tell people how your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein ended? So, you have this horrible occasion.

You go to his friend's house. His friend gropes you. Jeffrey does nothing while his friend is groping you. In fact, he carries on talking to Donald Trump as he's groping you. In fact, he carries on talking to Donald Trump as he's groping you. He then shouts at you in the elevator on the way down as if it's somehow your fault and you haven't done anything. How does your relationship with Jeffrey Epstein end?

So yeah, and to be clear, it was in an office at Trump Tower. I wasn't in his personal residence. Just to make that point. Yeah. So, yeah, so I remember just being very confused. Again, you know, I was really young, and very young for my age, in particular, I think also in general, and I and I was confused by it. There were a couple more incidents that made me very uncomfortable. Jeffrey, you know, the, the the pieces of the puzzle were sort of slotting

into place. You have to remember this is a four month window. I'm 20, what was I, 22 or 23 years old. I'm traveling twice a week on airplanes because I was really busy with my career. So it wasn't like, it wasn't this very intense, we were seeing each other all the time relationship.

So it took a while. My youth, I think, combined with his sort of power and manipulation and then just the general busyness of my life, you know, sort of slowed the process of connecting the dots of what was happening. But, you know, after that event, and then I think it was not long after that, I just said, I said, Jeffrey, you know, you are extremely mentally ill, and you need to get help.

There's something deeply wrong with you and stop calling me, I don't want anything to do with you. And he, oddly enough, this is hard for people to understand, but he got weepy, he was very sad. And it was authentic. Psychopaths and sociopaths,

well, I guess he'd be a sociopath, I sometimes are capable of really strange disparate things, you know. Also you may have pointed out something to him that he knew, that he needed help. You know, he did say, he said, I agree, I probably need to talk to someone. He did say that. You're right. He, um, you're, yes, he agreed, but he was never probably gonna, I'm, I probably need to talk to someone. He did say that. You're right. He, you're, yes, he agreed, but he was never probably gonna,

I'm sure he never did, you know. Well, if he did, it didn't work. Yeah, clearly. Yeah, but I had no, when I dated him, there was no, I wanna make it very clear that his association with pedophilia or young girls, that was, I mean, clearly was unknown.

I didn't, he was just like this international man of mystery, a businessman who played the piano beautifully. He used to play for me. We talked politics. He didn't condescend when we talked politics like most men did. He loved the fact that I had been practicing yoga meditation and that I knew so much about it and that I even taught sometimes for my friends. And so, you know, we had overlapping interests until I realized he was a sociopath with overlapping interests and then I was done. And did you stay in touch with him at all?

I did not stay in touch with him. And many years later, and the last time I saw him, I had been flown to New York for the, it was I think the 40th anniversary issue of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue and they did a Hall of Fame shoot. And it was all the other women who had,

had basically developed their names or their brands from that issue. Other people like Tyra and Christie Brinkley and all these amazing supermodels. And I went to do it and there was a launch party for it as there is every year when they release the issue. A lot of this is covered and the misogyny of those parties went on.

Everything is in this documentary. It's kind of amazing. I highly recommend watching. It's a of amazing. I highly recommend watching. It's a great film. But I flew in and then there was an after party that was very VIP. And you know an after party for any kind of model event, right? Whether it's, you know, the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue or an agency Christmas party, whatever. The after party is where,

you know, you're going to get, you know, unbelievably wealthy men, famous people, and in this, you know, a small kind of private bar somewhere. And I was in there and Jean-Luc and Jeffrey approached me together. And I just remember thinking, Oh, God, this is a very bad, very dangerous thing. And I was, they both came up and were smiling to me. I think they thought I was going to embrace them warmly and I Looked at them and shook my head and just walked away

Now Jeffrey did not know Jean-luc when I knew him in the early 90s at that point when they I just I remember you Know there's a reason why I thought it was so lethal that the two of them were together standing in front of me. It made me sick. And now we know why and what they were up to.

Right. And I think Jeffrey financed Jean-Luc's second agency in the States, right, which he used to traffic girls. And again, the incredible ending for both of them died by suicide in jail. Since we've spoken, Virginia Dufresne also died by suicide.

What were your thoughts on that?

Sorry. That was a tough one.

It was, you know, I mentioned this before that the day, the day that made the news, I just, I had to turn off my phone and, sorry.

Oh, it's a terribly sad story. Did you did you read her book?

No. I haven't read her book. I have a couple friends who were victims or survivors in the same overlapping networks and one of them reached out to me the other day and said I was ready to read you know I've been writing I've been healing I've been in therapy and I opened up this book I'm so sorry and you know I opened up this book to this page and it's John Luke and this person has survived tremendous by tremendous, tremendously terrible things in Paris. And she's, you know, she, it was a terrible night.

It was a really bad night. And so I'm imagining, you know, all these women, all these survivors who were so brave, whether they are Jeffries or, you know, just all the women out there, look at Justice Department numbers,

one in four by the time we're 18, right? You know, you open that book, it's when people say triggering, that's no exaggeration. It's no exaggeration that, you know, the unconscious, the subconscious is very powerful and is strong and is, look at me, as strong and as clear as you are. And no matter how much emotional agility you have developed, the emotions can overtake you sometimes. And the Virginia thing broke my heart.

I cannot believe the tortured existence that she had to live. And it's one of the reasons why I keep doing this and I keep talking about it, and I'm not going to stop. These survivors deserve justice. And you know, and I think a lot of us at this point feel like we're doing it for her too. You know, we want her to see this. We want justice for her.

One of the outcomes of her book is Prince Andrew in the UK got stripped of his royal title. He's been turfed out of Royal Lodge where he's been living and banished to a corner of the Sandringham estates, at least that's the latest I've heard. Do you think more should happen to him?

Oh, geez. Like should he be prosecuted? And you know, I don't know what the statute of limitations are in England. So in terms of like, you know, what should be required by law or, you know, or whether he's getting special privileges because of his royalty, I'm not... I don't feel comfortable weighing in on that, but it sure took long enough for him to be

stripped and I don't know what his life is like now or what he's facing But I think at the very least he should have to be a lot more forthcoming about what he knows And he should want to he has two daughters, right? I mean, you know these men that all love their daughters, but are willing to cover up for for for Pedophiles, you know, I don't know how they look at themselves. Be on the right side of history, Andrew, seriously. Be on the right side of history.

So, a lot of men have been brought down by this. You know, the head of MIT Lab, Larry Summers, has been forced to step back at Harvard. Jess Daly was the CEO of Barclays Bank, had to resign. And yet, one of Jeffrey Epstein's best friends, Donald Trump, remains president of the United States.

How do you square that?

I mean, if we go all the way back to that Access Hollywood tape, this wasn't hearsay. This was him showing it on camera. What he does to women, what he gets away with, and how just great he thinks that is. And he was still elected. I think that just points to the fact that misogyny runs deep. And we have a lot of work to do. Stacey, I mean, one of the comments that we had, well, many comments were from people who were inspired by a, your message and your strength, and your refusal to be laid low by this. And many people wanted to know, what do you do for your own mental health?

What do you do to stay balanced?

I don't know how balanced I am. I think it depends on the hour.

Like most of us.

I mean, how balanced are any of us right now? Especially after this week? I mean, I think, you know, what's complicated about this is I certainly can't compartmentalize and just, you know, my daily existence doesn't revolve around this horror of Epstein and this story. The lack of transparency is linked to, obviously, democracy and what's happening. Democracy is crumbling underneath our feet right now.

And I think we're all surviving by compartmentalizing. So, you know, I'm not the only one unscathed. And I also just want to reiterate that I don't ever take that leap in saying that I endured or have to survive anywhere near what Jeffrey Epstein's survivors had to. You know, they were underage, they were trafficked, they were raped. That didn't happen to me. I had a terrible incident with two terrible men.

And it was horrible. But nothing compared to what they have to sort of endure and survive every single day as this gets relitigated over and over and over again. You know, that said, like, I think, you know, I've had enough therapy in my life and read enough Brene Brown books, you know, and have an incredible group of people around me to supporting me personally that I'm able to be in a position to do this now and not have it totally subsume me.

That doesn't mean there aren't hard days or hard moments, but that's also part of life and there always will be hard days and hard moments, right? But yeah, I work out very hard. I cook a lot. So, you know, it's the simple things. It's just the simple things like I think most of us really, you know, love. So to get the Epstein files released, it required a cross party effort. Thomas Massey, a very independent Republican with Roe Connor, led the charge and three Republican women got on board from the House, Lauren Boebert, Marjorie Taylor Greene and Nancy Mace.

Marjorie Taylor Greene is now leaving. She says she's resigning her seat because she's had enough. What do you say to those four Republicans who were brave enough to stand up or let me ask it this way, what do you say to those four Republicans who decided to join with the Democrats and demand the release of the files? And then to the head of the Senate, John Thune, who got it passed the Senate with a unanimous vote or unanimous but one, I should say?

Yeah. So, I commend, I really commend them for doing the right thing, being on the right side of history. They should. It's the right move, you know. But that said, I truly appreciate it because I, you know, had we not gotten it through the House and gotten everyone on board, which was the ripple effect of them. They had full court pressure from the White House, obviously. I think at one point, the last time I went on, I had a conversation with Aaron Burnett,

I think it was in August, on CNN, saying, I think the actual language that came out of the White House was, it will be a hostile act if you vote to support this. I mean, that's some pretty aggressive strong-ar arming and they did not succumb to the pressure. And I so commend them for that. It's also the right thing to do. So, you know, it does bum me out that we're at this point in history where it's like when people are just doing the right thing by like not covering for pedophiles, like they all. Everyone wants to champion them. But this is where we are.

Full credit for bucking the White House on that. And we wouldn't have gotten it through the Senate, I don't think. Trump realized it was over and that this has to advance. And so let's hope they do the right thing. They are not allowed, according to the rules of this act, they are not allowed to redact anything solely to keep someone from being embarrassed.

So I hope they keep that in mind. Well, I'm sure there will be a lot to wade through, or at least one hopes there will be a lot to wade through, and it hasn't all somehow mysteriously disappeared, or we're told that we can't have access to it because it's part of an ongoing investigation. But Stacey, will you come back and talk to us once we've had a chance to go through it?

I know you'll be going through it, but we would love to get your perspective on it. Oh, I'd be honored. I'd love to. It's so good to see you, Joanna.

Appreciate it. Always interesting to have Stacey Williams' perspective on the Epstein files, which, as we said earlier, come out this week. And I'm dying to watch the documentary about models beyond the gaze. If you have been, thank you for watching. Please sign up to the Daily Beast podcast or join the Daily Beast community. You can be a Be Beast tier member, which means you get extra content and all sorts of extra bargains, marvelous, marvelous value. And we like to read out the names of our Be Beast members or as our First Lady would have us say, Be

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