EXCLUSIVE: Andy Burnham says he will fight to 'change Labour' and 'change the country'

Do you want to be leader of the Labour Party?

I will take that fight as high as I can take that fight.

Do you have confidence in Keir Starmer as Prime Minister?I do have confidence in him as a person.Do you want Sir Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister, to come and campaign with you?I think the country does need to change.

Do you understand why people are voting for reform?100%.Because my party and other parties have let them down.And what do you make of Nigel Farage?

Clearly effective, but I just don't agree with him.I will ask you one more time.This is a pitch for you to be leader of the Labour Party?You left Westminster a decade ago and you've been pretty critical of Westminster in that decade.Why do you now want to go back?

Because everyone can feel that the country's not working, it's not where it should be.And politics isn't working.I felt that 10 years ago in Westminster.I could just see that the place doesn't work for people here.I felt that as the MP for Leigh, nearby, fighting for investment in this borough, trying to bring it back up.I felt it fighting for justice for the Hillsborough families.

And I also felt it as mayor, actually, during the pandemic, when I was fighting Boris, who was trying to treat people in Makefield and Greater Manchester as second -class citizens.That's the thing that made me leave, the way that it works.It works for some people in some places, but not all people in all places.try to build something different in Greater Manchester, a new politics, different way of working, place first rather than party first.You know, more about problem solving than point scoring.And look at the results.

You know, we create that new politics and Greater Manchester today, the fastest growing city region in the UK.I'm so proud of that.It's a team thing.You know, we've all, we all pull together in Greater Manchester.And I think, you know, I could say this, the country needs more of that, more of that approach.There's only so many things I can do though as Mayor of Greater Manchester.

I have done something.reverse the Thatcher legacy which was the deregulation of buses and I remember that growing up here when the orange buses that we had were you know taken off was broken up and everything became way too expensive.I have put buses back under public control and made them more affordable to people here but I want to you know, everything to be affordable to people here in the Makerfield constituency.I want energy to be affordable.I want housing to be affordable.I want water to be the same and not have a situation where, you know, we end up with sewage in the rivers and seas.

I want transport to be much more affordable, train fares to be lower, like the bus fares that we've got.So I can't do all of that from my role as Mayor of Greater Manchester.We've taken Greater Manchester up to a degree.but more change is needed if it's to get where I want it to be.

To be clear though, you can't do any of that as MP for Makefield.You're going to have to become leader of the Labour Party and then Prime Minister.So I'm going to ask you a pretty direct question here.It really is a yes or no.Do you want to be leader of the Labour Party?

Firstly, I'm not presumptuous about anything.That is a question for other people in many ways as to whether or not they think I could go forward.So that's firstly a question for the people of this constituency.And I'm purely fighting to be their member of Parliament.

But this is clearly bigger than a by -election.This is clearly not about...

I'll answer your question.I will answer your question.I have spent my whole career fighting for people here.That's what I've done.And I mentioned the campaigns that I've been involved in, fighting as well for people affected by infected blood, which was a campaign I was a big part of when I was in Parliament.I've always fought against injustice.

I've always foughtfor ordinary people.I've fought for the North of England, but I've fought, if you like, for people everywhere.And I want to see the Midlands and the South West and get the fair deal that, you know, everywhere should have.So to answer your question, I will take that fight as high as I can take that fight, because I think the country does need to change if it's to work.for all people in all places.

We have currently an economy that works for some, often those for whom life is already very good, but it doesn't work for people for whom life is hardest.And that has to change.

I sense your reluctance and I understand you don't want to look presumptuous by saying, I want to be Prime Minister.I mean, what are we doing here, Andy?If you don't want to be leader of the Labour Party and you don't want to be Prime Minister, what is all this about?Because politics has essentially come to a standstill.Until we know what's going to happen in this by -election, the Prime Minister is currently a sitting duck.And until you tell the country what you want to do, we're not sure what's going to happen next.

Well, I've indicated that always in my role as Mayor that one day, I will seek to return to Westminster.So I'm saying that now.And I don't know whether people here feel that that's something they want to support.But that is the first stage.And I'm not getting ahead of myself.I am focused on what I'm doing here in this by -election.

What comes beyond that in Parliament, again, is a question for people in Parliament.It's a question for the House of Commons.for the country.But if I could, let's get to the heart of this by -election campaign.People are struggling, number one.And number two, politics isn't working.

Thursday's local election results of a week past, they were just a cry for change.

Let's be specific on that then.So what has this current Labour government got wrong?

Well, no, I'm just going to give you, if you don't mind, a longer answer.I think Britain started on a path in the mid -1980s that is the path that has led us to where we are today.It started with de -industrialisation in these parts.I was growing up here, the miners' strike, this was a mining area, and that was devastating, as well as the loss of other industry.De -industrialisation.deregulation, the buses that I mentioned, privatisation, where life's essentials became less affordable to people, energy, water, those other things that I mentioned.

And all of that has taken us to the point where we are now, where people just feel things aren't working, things aren't affordable.And that's the path that we're on.And for me, we need a different path that puts those things back under public control, makes them more affordable.And that is the main question in this by -election.Are people happy to stick on the path that Britain's been on for 40 years, or do we want a new path?And it's a bigger question, actually.

And I think it's a really important thing for me to say to you, this is a different by -election.

We've not had a by -election like this before.Well, that's the point, isn't it?This clearly isn't a by -election you're treating as to become Member of Parliament for this area.You're making a bigger argument about the country and therefore I will ask you one more time, this is a pitch for you to be Leader of the Labour Party.I don't quite understand why you don't want to say yes to that answer.

It's a pitch for me to be the Member of Parliament for Makefield, and I'm not going to get ahead of that.But what I did say to you, given what I've learned about the things that are wrong with this country in my political career, the way the political system doesn't work for people in this part of the world, I will take that fight on their behalf as high as I can go.But it's not for me to say, oh, and I'll take it right to the top.It's for others to take it right to the top.whether I'm the person to lead that fight forward.foremost issue I've got to confront is, are we going to stay as we are, where Britain just doesn't feel like it's where it should be?

I want this by -election to be a change moment for British politics.Let's let some fresh air in.I don't want to be on a doorstep saying to people, reform this, Lib Dems that, Green the other.I want to focus on what I'm saying to them about what I think needs to change, and then listen to what they think about that.and then from there see if we can build a different approach to politics.

The ideas that you're talking about already, you look at the financial markets on Friday, are pretty spooked by it.There's already talk that the ideas that you've got are going to involve a lot more public spending, essentially higher taxes.What are you going to do if you get as high as you want to get to, and let's say that's Prime Minister, what are you going to do when the markets turn around and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, we don't like any of this, and we have a situation we had with Liz Truss where the economy starts to falter?Number one, I have never said you can just ignore the bond markets.Number two...

Well, didn't you say we shouldn't be in hock to the bond markets?I said that politicians have placed Britain in hock because of the way in which we lost control of our finances and public spending.And that goes back to what I said to you before, when we, if you like, handed away control of energy, water, housing, that has left Britain in a weak position when it comes to public spending.You can't, how can you control public spending if you're chasing rents in the private rented sector through the benefits system?How?How can that be done?

So,you know, I've quite clear, let me say this really clearly, I support the fiscal rules.There needs to be a plan to get debt down.But beyond that, we need to change politics and take the turbulence out of British politics, because that is a cause of uncertainty that then has that impact in the markets.I'm proposing here a new approach to politics, like we've built in Greater Manchester.More long -term, more collaborative.

And from that platform, you create longer -term public investment plans for the country to retake control of public spending because you've got further control of housing, energy, water, and all the rest of the things that I mentioned.And that is a really clear answer.And I hope people in the markets and beyond will hear it because...

You're clearly worried about the markets and some of your supporters have said all the markets are going to have to fall into line if Andy Burnham becomes Prime Minister.I can tell that you're conscious of getting that message out.And again it points to the fact that you are really thinking about being Prime Minister and that's what this is all about.

I'm just pointing to what I've always said.I said you can't ignore them and I never would have believed that you could.Of course you can't.And also that you stick to fiscal rules.There's got to be fiscal discipline.Let me just say...

No, no, let me say this is important.I've run Greater Manchester for practically a decade, we have got rock solid public finances in Greater Manchester, but we've got an economy that's growing at 3%.Now that's my track record when it comes to these things.I'm actually putting forward a big answer to this problem of Britain looking over its shoulder.The fact that we don't have sufficient council and social housing in this country, as you know probably better than anybody else,that means that we don't have control of the benefits bill because, as I said before, you're chasing rents in the private rented sector.

The failure to have a sufficient public housing stock causes Britain to spend so much on social failure.And it's these things that need to be put right.I'm actually putting forward, you know, somebody who's been, if you like, outside of the confines of Westminster, some new thinking, some fresh thinking.I'm saying to you directly, the path that Britain has been on for 40 years, in my view, has been the wrong path.It's taken us to this place where people can't afford life's basics.They can't afford a few pints at the weekend.

They can't afford a holiday.And that's why they're saying to politicians, do better.This is not good enough.And they're right to say that.I'm saying there's a new path here, new politics to build a new economy for Britain.

I mean, a lot of what you've just talked about there is not in the current Labour manifesto.There's going to have to be a general election, isn't there?If you become leader of the Labour Party and Prime Minister, you're going to have to have a general election pretty quickly.Because all the things you talked about, and I'm sure lots of people will agree with, particularly on nationalisation and on housing, That is not in the current Labour manifesto.No one voted for what you've just been talking about.So there's going to have to be a general election, isn't there?

I don't agree.

I mean, if you look at the Labour manifesto, there are lots of commitments very similar to what I've been saying.

So what's different now?

There's so much there that you can build on that's in the manifesto, but bring through...

So you don't think if you became leader you would need a general election?

Bring through the strongest version of what's there.

So you don't think there needs to be a general election to put your ideas forward to the country?

Well, I think what I'm saying you know, I am building a different conversation here with the public that is actually a new one.You know, as I've said to you, that my rules in this campaignyou knock on every door, you have a conversation.on every doorstep.You don't spend your time point scoring against the other parties.You listen to what people are saying and then you say, well, this is what we believe should be done.

And then from there, we start to build back some trust in politics.And always, if you're going to do something that you don't have a mandate for, of course, you always have to make sure that there's public consent for what you are doing.But I want this to be really, really clear.I'm building a new politics.

Let me just explain this.I do need the space to answer some questions.I've given you quite a lot of space.

I want to just describe what was a real change moment in my political journey.I stood for Westminster four times under the First Past the Post system.And then in 2017, when I stood for the first time to be Mayor of Greater Manchester, under a proportional system, I realised that you had an incentive to knock on every door because you might be able to get a second preference from somebody who was a Lib Dem voter or a Green.And I used to say to them, oh, well, OK, if you support regulation of the buses, maybe you could consider giving me a second preference.And the thing about that was it finally aligned the conversation on the doorstep with what people want from politics, which is about problem -solving first and foremost, not point -scoring.And for me, building a different political conversation in the country then allows us to start thinking of different long -term solutions.

I think Westminster politics has served people very badly indeed.Are we talking about electoral reform here?I support it and I think it brings a different...

So ditching first -past -the -post for a new system?

A different conversation.But that, to then go on to answer your question, would require it to be in a manifesto and endorsed at a general election.So I'm not saying...things should be done for which there is not currently consent.

One of the big questions on the economy, before I move on to the by -election specifically, one of the big questions on the economy, a lot of people will say, the Brexit referendum was a huge turning point and a lot of the problems we're having with the economy go back to that point.I know you're making a wider point about the 1980s, but specifically on Brexit, are you in favour of rejoining the European Union?

I've said in the long term there is a case for that, but I'm not advocating that in this by -election.In fact, what I am saying is focus now domestically.Britain has got to focus very much on the here and now and the issues that are affecting people.These are the things we need to focus on rather than getting trapped in a debate about the EU.We've got to focus domestically, sort out Britain, and that has got to be the first priority.

a really tough fight for you.The reform are picking up a lot of support here.Do you understand why people are voting for reform?

100%.And I'm not in the business in this by -election of sort of...Why do you think they are?...of point scoring, because my party and other parties have let them down.And it's what I said before, you know, we've got to a point where life has become unaffordable.and the status quo just hasn't delivered for them.

And they're sending a message, aren't they?And rightly, in my view, that this just isn't good enough.And therefore, we're telling you that this isn't good enough.And it's time for politics to respond to that message rather than, I don't know, promising breakfast clubs or this, that and the other.No, I'm saying to you, Dan, we've got to now hear what they're saying.This is more fundamental about who is the economy run for.

And what do you make of Nigel Farage?I've only met him a couple of times, he was perfectly friendly and so I don't...

As a politician?

I'm not... and clearly effective, but I just don't agree with him.I mean, since you've asked me about him, I'm not going to say...I'm not going to spend this campaign doing loads of point scoring, but, you know, I talk about the change that Britain went on from the mid -1980s.As far as I know, you know, he was an Arch Thatcherite at that time, when those policies were doing terrible damage to these communities here in Makefield, the deindustrialisation, the deregulation, the privatisation, that was the path that's taken us to this.So I'm not somebody, I get on with people, I try and work with people, but obviously I don't agree with his political views.

This is a massive political gamble for you.You are also possibly opening up the route for reform.If you lose the by -election to reform, it's kind of showing the country that there is no viable alternative to reform.And if you win, you open up the path to reform, potentially becoming, getting hold of the Greater Manchester Mayoral Authority.Aren't you putting this whole region, and potentially the country, in a place where it risks because of your ambitions?

But that's a... a question that says therefore just turn away from things and don't confront issues and you know just leave it and you know it'll all be well it isn't all right you know politics isn't working uh and therefore the country isn't isn't working so yeah there's an element of risk but you know i i've taken the view that the time has come for me to in some ways, you know, take it on and say, here's what I think.I've been in politics 25 years.I've learned a lot on a fairly winding journey through politics.I have a view about now what needs to change.I think the path the country's been on40 years is the wrong one.

So this is a bit of a, you know, a bit of a circuit breaker, if you like, for the political culture in this country.And, you know, I think some would say, oh, it's an unnecessary balance.I'd say it's a very, very necessary one.We need a debate in the political space about deeper issues affecting the way the country is.

You're going to be going up against reform.Caroline Lucas, former Green leader, has said the Greens shouldn't be standing in this by -election to give you the best chance of meeting reform.Do you think the Greens should stand aside here to let you have a clear run at this on the left?

Do you know, I'm not going to sit here today and pontificate about what other parties should do in this by -election.That's honestly up to them.I will only just focus on what we need to do.I'm not going to spend my time point scoring against the others.There's always an element of that.But the main thing is being really clear myself in what I am saying and why I believe that hopefully should be worthy of people's trust and support.

So that's the approach I'm bringing to this.I think sometimes politics falls into disrepute because people don't answer questions.They go, oh, but look at them over there.Well, I'm going to not do that in this campaign.Do you want Sir Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister, to come and campaign with you?I want the support of any Labour colleague in the country if they want, you know, if they're on board.

Will he be inviting them up to help you campaign?Let me put it this way.I mean, it's not a traditional by -election campaign.So let's just start with that.

But you both want Labour to win.

Hang on a second, I'm saying different things to a degree in terms of what the government has been saying.Now, if people are glad that I'm breaking this open and want to come and join the campaign, then, you know, but I'm not saying...must come and join the campaign because it is a different campaign.

So you're not standing on Keir Starmer's record and therefore it would be kind of odd for him to come and campaign with you?That's kind of what you're saying.

Well I'm standing on a call for change, aren't I?I think we need to change Labour to some degree so we can change politics, change the country and that's my view of the change that I think is needed.So it may not be the settled view of everybody else.And it's going to be tested, isn't it, by the people of Makefield.So anybody who wants to come, who's a good friend in the Labour family, I would obviously welcome them to this campaign.But it's to support what I'm saying.

And let me ask you, I have to ask you about the Prime Minister.Straight question, do you have confidence in Keir Starmer as Prime Minister?

I've always worked with him and I do have confidence in him as a person.

But do you have confidence in him as Prime Minister?

What he has done, I'm about to answer what he's done.I think the thing I would say is some of the good things the government has done has not come through in terms of people's awareness of the big changes, rail renationalisation.And why is that do you think?I don't know.It's a hard thing, isn't it, being in politics, getting your message over.Perhaps it's the sense that there isn't a really clear forward story for Britain and where it's going.

And that, I think, is what we've got to really pull forward now.I'm really clear about it.I think Britain's been on the wrong path.for a very long time.And what I'm saying is, you know, it's time to step back and sort of say, right, are we going to stick on that or are we going on a new path for Britain?

And I hope that will be the question at the end of the day that defines this by -election campaign.There are 400 Labour MPs.You're saying I'm the best guy to offer these arguments.Wouldn't Angela Rayner make a brilliant Prime Minister?

I fully support, all through my career I've supported Andrew.I'm close friends with Angela.Wes Streeting is an incredibly capable politician as is Keir, as is Ed Miliband.I'm not saying I'm the best.

But you are saying I'm offering something that no one else can offer.That's what you're saying.

What I'm saying to you is, took a very clear view ten years ago that Whitehall and Westminster don't work for Makefield.Let me just be absolutely blunt about it.I took that view.It was partly linked to, well it mainly linked actually to the Hillsborough justice campaign.I remember standing in the House of Commons on the day after the second inquest returned the verdict of unlawful killing.and I felt a sense of fury if I'm honest that day because I remember being at the dispatch box and I looked around the place and I was looking people in the eye and as I looked around the Commons chamber and I just asked the question how could an entire English city have been crying injustice for 20 years and nobody here was listening?

How?How does that happen?Well, I've never had an answer to that question because the system doesn't know how to give an answer to that question.But that is kind of what made me leave.I was really clear about that and I've tried to build something different.in Greater Manchester.

And I think that something different is working.But we have to bring that approach to the national level if this country is going to get back to where we want it to be.And I think there's a real yearning inside people.We want Britain to be back where Britain always was and where we would expect it to be.And that is the kind of, that's the sort of emotion that's driving this journey back to Westminster.And maybe it will happen, maybe not.

It's up to the people of Makefield whether it'sor not, but I just want to bring everything I've learnt on a fairly winding journey.political journey over the years.I've been the first to accept that, made my mistakes, but I've learned along the way.But I feel I've got a clear take on what's wrong, what needs to change.And I'm, in the most humble way I can do, just asking people here in this constituency whether they're prepared to give me their support to bring some of that change to the national level.

Let me ask you some very quick, quickfire questions.

Do you have to?Very quickly.They're not politics related, don't worry.Everton win the Premier League, England win the World Cup.

Everton win the Premier League.And I know people will say, oh, that's unpatriotic.Well, I'm just giving you a truthful answer.I'm Everton Football Club all the way.And Everton win the Premier League.Just imagine that day at the new stadium.

It's coming.I can see David Moyes.I can see it.I can feel it.Football's coming home.

It's coming to Brampton.

It is indeed.I hope so.

VAR.Yes or no?Gone.Get rid of VAR.

Get rid.I'll tell you why.It's killing spontaneity in the ground.I'm a season ticket holder at Everton.Killing spontaneity.You can't celebrate a goal because you think someone somewhere in an industrial unit is going to rule it out.

So that's a bad thing.But number two, it doesn't get decisions right.You could put up with that if it then got the decisions right, but it doesn't get the decisions right and it's not consistent.It takes a decision one week for one favoured team and then doesn't do the same thing the next.So it's not consistent.Killing spontaneity, it's not getting decisions right, get rid.

It's meant to be a quickfire Andy.

You got me on VAR, I can't do VAR, it was a quickfire.I was going to ask you if we should have a bank holiday if England win the World Cup, but what if a bank holiday if Everton win the Premier League, probably should be a better question, but a bank holiday if England win the World Cup.

There's some Evertonians in there, I'll give the Evertonians a feel of a bank holiday.

You're wearing a suit jacket today and a shirt, I was going to ask you if you became Prime Minister, would you wear a suit?I think the answer would be yes, I imagine.MPs are a bit smarter than mayors, I think.Andy Burnham, thanks very much for your time.Thank you, thanks very much.