Former Head of Counter-Terror Breaks Down The Ann Widdecombe Investigation | The Crime Agents

We're no stranger to political violence in this country.I think we look at places like the United States and the sort of crazy gun culture and the amount of violence that happens there, and we think we're somewhat immune.We've got to be very careful about the level of radicalization and extremism that is actually currently going on.

If detectives are looking into the motive, then clearly, surely high up on the list is political ideology.Why?would the police seemingly rule it out?

If we wanted to protect 650 members of parliament with close armed protection, you'd need four and a half thousand more armed bodyguards trained tomorrow.

I'm not the only one baffled by the police communications.You're always on a hiding to nothing when you're saying this is policing at its finest.The idea...I'm going to say what I think.Wait there, wait there.

Utter, utter bullshit.

Yeah, wait there.Yeah, good.I like that.Welcome to this special episode of The Crime Agents with me, crime journalist Andy Hughes.

And me, the ex -cop Neil Passu.

Neil, the killing of Anne Widdicombe is a tale that has had many twists and turns and it's not even been a week yet.I think I'll start by laying out the timeline of events.Police believe Van Whittacombe was attacked at a home in Devon at around 12 .30 on Wednesday afternoon.Two days later, on Friday, Devon and Cornwall Police launched a murder investigation and said they were looking for a white male.Later that day, they arrested a 26 -year -old man, but he was released later.the following day without charge.

And on Saturday, a 28 -year -old white British male was arrested in Rotherham, more than 260 miles away from the former Tory minister's home.Police seemed confident they got their man, and seemed sure there was no political or terrorist motivation.But that all changed yesterday, when counter -terrorism police announced it was leading the investigation.after new information and evidence had come to light.Neil, why don't you just talk us through how it works with local forces, in this case Devon & Cornwall and counter -terrorism police.

It's difficult.There's been an enormous amount of speculation.You'll know, for the last 48 hours, I've probably fielded about 20 calls from producers wanting to talk about this in all kinds of ways.And this was specifically after Devon and Cornwall had come out originally saying, please don't speculate.And in fact, the assistant chief constable on this has been missed.I think the report said, we're keeping an open mind.

Yeah.

I do think they got the communications wrong.And I'll explain why and what we used to do.For everybody who's out there who doesn't have a high -profile public figure in their family, they would want to know that any murder is a tragedy and affects families, friends, communities.I'm married into a Devon family, so I've got people who know people in this place.So I know how that community is feeling, utterly shocked, bewildered, horrified, scared.What would happen originally is I think the paramedics called the police.

A local police would have turned up look to the scene assess that the scene looked like something incredibly I mean we can't speculate on what the scene looked like but they would have called in their local detectives who would have made an assessment and then called out the major crime to As soon as it became apparent who the victim was because they were such a high -profile figure That would probably have gone straight to the chief constable.So you would have ended up with a much more senior Command structure than you would do with any kind of regular murder simply because they knew this would be a national and international Incident very quickly.Hence.You've got a very quick press conference with a very senior officer in full tunic and Trying to manage the the press because the world's press will descend upon that tiny place and they have to manage that quicklyresponse.So that's the only thing that differs.

The actual detective work is the same for every murder, which is you make sure that scene is sealed tight so nobody goes into that scene or can go in and come out of that scene without effectively removing or adding forensics to the scene.You have your best forensic investigators going through the scene inch by inch looking for any kind of trace.There's a basic, it's called Locard after the French scientist who invented it.Locard's principle says that every contact leaves a trace.So every time a suspect has, connects with you as a physical person, you become a crime scene.

Yeah, they leave something at the crime scene and they always take something away.

Exactly.So the most important thing is to keep that crime scene sterile.The second thing to do is obvious Initial witnesses did anybody see anything or hear anything unusual finding those people and making sure you get very accurate Initial accounts before you're going to go away and interview them at great depth But initially, you want rapid information that might lead you to a suspect as quickly as possible.And that's another forensic principle.You want to capture a suspect as quickly as possible before they've disposed of their clothing and they've cleaned themselves.So that will be going on at speed.

And that is as simple as wearing out the shoe leather, knocking on door to door to door to check who's been in that house, who's in the house at the relevant time.You've got doctors assessing when the murder has happened.So you've got a window of opportunity in which somebody may have seen something.These days, I mean, I've got one, you've probably got one, people have got surveillance cameras on their doorbells, let alone CCTV in the area or leading up to the area, or on major arterial routes that a suspect may have driven.So they'll be downloading as much of that material as possible and going through it frame by frame, trying to find somebody who's getting within the proximity of Anne Whittacombe's house.All of that will have been going on at some pace.

But there's been some criticism because, of course, they arrested somebody in the area.then de -arrested them and said they had nothing to do with the inquiry.That's not particularly uncommon.No, it's a lot more common than people think.You've been covering this almost as long as I've been investigating it.And we will arrest people on reasonable grounds to suspect, which means we are trying to prove or disprove your involvement in it.

So we're checking your alibis.But if we don't do that, and you turn, you know, we're losing that potential forensic opportunity if we don't take that quick, that quick action.So that's why they would have been doing what they were doing.The big argument comes from the press conference on what they said.

We'll get we'll get on to that in a bit.But right now, I want to talk about how it works between Devon & Cornwall Police and Counter -Terrorism Policing.Clearly, Counter -Terrorism Police would have been notified very early on about this murder because of the victim.And then really...Well, not necessarily.Well, not necessarily, but in this case it was.

In this case it was.how it will work, and this is more your world than mine of course, but how it will work is the local police force will be sending regular updates to counter -terrorism policing, and really because they have to be aware of everything that's going on.But practically, is it a case that counter -terrorism policing southwest unit, are they going to be actually have officers in the incident room?Or will it be more of a case of the SIO, Senior Investigating Officer, just having basically a direct line to someone senior in counter -terrorism policing saying, this is what we've got, this is what we believe.this is what the suspect's saying, this is who we think it is, this is what CCTV we've got.Tell me how it works.

So bear with me a bit because this is not as easy as the public might think.So a little bit of a description of what counter -terrorism policing looks like across the country.There are nineunits London has the biggest counterterrorism policing London in the southeast Which actually is the investigative unit that covers the southwest is counterterrorism policing southeast based in the Thames Valley area They would be the people who would be called out as the prime investigators in a Terrorist incident a hostile state activity or a war crime We do that as well in counterterrorism policing that had been committed in that southwest or southeast region And then they would be supported by counterterrorism policing specialists from other parts of the network in the southwest specifically in Devon Cornwall There is another regional hub called the counterterrorism policing network which is effectively just an intelligence unit.So what should have happened and may well have happened, and for our listeners and viewers, I'm not a journalist, and therefore I don't ring up my old colleagues saying, tell me what's gone on, so that I can then go out on the news and tell people.You should be.

I would never do that.And if somebody tried to do that with me when I was a senior investigative officer, I would have hung up very quickly, and there would have been a string of expletives.So that is not my job.I'm not a journalist.So I don't know.I'm giving you what hypothetically may have happened.

happened.So Devon and Cornwall Police would get this tragedy and they would be looking at the high -profile nature of the victim because she was a former politician and a very outspoken and had recently been in the news and was very well known.They may, you're saying they did, have thought this might be one that we ought to tell counter -terrorism policing in case there is a political motive, in case this is a terrorist act.

It would seem a no -brainer to do that, right?Yes.

You would generally expect that to happen.The way that happens is they would have probably informed counter -terrorism southwest, the intelligence unit, who would have looked and done some research around the public profile of Anne Widdicombe and what she'd been doing recently, and would have tried to determine whether there was anythingthreat to her life.They would have rung the SO15, now Counter -Terrorism Policing London, control desk in New Scotland Yard, for want of a better expression it doesn't actually sit there.That is the switchboard operator, if you like, that takes calls from all over the country if people think there is a terrorist -related incident going on, either an attack or something building towards it, or some intelligence.There is a duty officer, a detective superintendent, who decides, yes, that's one for us, or that is not one for us.

And then they will notify the office of the senior national coordinator.That's a very important person, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Vicky Evans at the moment.I used to do that job, it's Vicky's job, effectively, to declare whether something is a terrorist incident or not.In the early stages of an investigation, even one as high profile as this, It is pure speculation, which is all we've been hearing for days.Even now that counter -terrorism policing have taken over, we are still speculating as to whether they have absolute evidence that this is a terrorist attack.It's an alleged terrorist attack because counter -terrorism policing have taken over.

But until Vicky Evans has determined she has the evidence that Section 1 of the Terrorist Act or another terrorism offence has been, that bridge has been crossed, she won't declare it a terrorist attack.This is what probably should have happened in the communications when the Assistant Chief Constable said, we're open -minded.At that point, they should have said, we have contacted counter -terrorism policing.They will be assisting us.Exactly.That's what usually happens.

Well, it's what usually happens, because we put that in place.And we put that in place for precisely the reasons we've seen this week.Because people start, when it looks like to the layperson that it's an obvious political, religious, racial, or ideological act, everyone jumps to the conclusion that it must be a terrorist act.Why isn't counter -terrorism policing dealing with it?It's not always the case that it is.It's an allegation.

that it might be.

There was CCTV released of the suspect early on Wednesday morning seemingly loading his car with what looked like at least one weapon and on the Saturday a 28 -year -old white British male was taken into custody.He was arrested by the Counterterrorism Northeast Division.Really, I think it's important to let people know how counterterrorism investigations usually work.The majority of the time, the terrorist suspect is usually apprehended at the scene or is killed at the scene.and quite often they are already on the radar of the security services.In this case, because the suspect wasn't located or taken into custody for a few days, and also we now know that he wasn't on the prevent network, he wasn't known to prevent, then really the detectives in this case had no idea of the actual motive.

I think that's important to distinguish Because people will say, well, clearly, this is terrorism.Clearly, this is terrorism.But that's not how it works.

It implies that everybody thinks that MI5 and counterterrorism policing have a database of everybody who's ever thought a terrorist act or started to plot one.

Well, you wish you did have that, but you don't.

It's a minority report, isn't it, if everyone remembers that brilliant 1990s film.We're not in that space.So they've said he's not known to the prevent.This alleged suspect who's been arrested and is in custody was not known to the prevent.to prevent we don't yet know whether he was known to the system at all, just because he's prevented only one part of the system.It's a pre criminal thing that you have to volunteer for if you haven't been convicted of a potential terrorist offence or

of being radicalised towards a terrorist offence, you effectively volunteer for it.So just because he's not part of Prevent doesn't mean he wasn't known in some way, shape or form to either the police for regular crime or to counter -terrorism police as a suspected radical or former terrorist.We don't know that yet.It's entire speculation.You've got a little bit of information because you are a journalist and you were entitled to do your investigative journalism that they may have found some ideology around this alleged suspect.Again, if you think about the number of political violence, we're no stranger to political violence in this country.

I think we look at places like the United States and the sort of crazy gun culture and the amount of violence that happens there, and we think we're somewhat immune.I always wonder how quickly we forget.You had the attempted murder of Stephen Timms.You had the murder of Joe Cox.You had the murder of David Amos.We've also had the plot to kill Rosie Cooper, an MP, by national action.

We've had, and each one of these, you know, we've had Conservative, Labour, now a Reform member targeted.Every political party is suffering political violence in this country at the moment.We've got to be very careful about the level of radicalization and extremism that is actually currently going on.I think we'll get into that in part.We will.

Just to let people know what I've been reporting on LBC the last 24 hours is that sources have told me that detectives have found material suggesting that political ideology may be a motivating factor.However, I will caveat by saying this is still in the early stages of the investigation and the Times have reported this morning that detectives are understood to be working at pace to establish the suspect's views on reform UK, as well as on a range of political issues including abortion, gay rights and immigration, of which the formerTory minister was extremely outspoken on.

suspects might get charged.But at this moment in time, the point I was making earlier is a lot of these people, some of them are just completely acting alone.They've come, like Thomas Mayer, who killed Joe Cox, or Darren Osborne, who drove into a Muslim congregation at Finsbury Mosque.I mean, you are talking about individuals who've been sort of self -radicalized, who are sitting there.They're not part of any concerted movement.Attempt like a carousel.

They are individuals quite often very vulnerable, you know, very sort of malleable disturbed individuals who have taken it upon themselves to take Individual action and they'll be they'll be examining all of that because as you say, yeah have this moment in time I imagine there are 650 MPs who are feeling incredibly nervous Everyone in their offices is feeling nervous.The public is feeling nervous the quicker they can establish who, what, where and when the better for that kind of sense of public disquiet.

It seems as though we're living in an age where police can't do anything right even when they do communicate.

What age is that?That age started in 1829 I think.

But there has been a lot of criticism about the communications from police and I want to talk to you about that in a moment.It's late Sunday morning, police They think they've got their man, they call a press conference, and Chief Constable of Devon and Cornwall Police, James Vaughan, says this.

The operation has been running at a lightning pace for 48 hours, and I am really pleased that we have a suspect firmly in custody and that will undergo some further work from us today.Well done to all.This is clearly British policing at its very best.

And then Assistant Chief Constable Matt Longman follows up with this.

At this point, there was still no information to suggest that this is a terrorism -related incident.And at this point, we are not looking for anyone else in connection with this murder.

Neil.

That's a deep sigh, Andy.Well, do you know what?You were about to say something bad about policing.

Yeah, well, listen, it's a bit of a head scratcher, this one, because when you look at the facts, you look at the victim, the victimology, as you call it, and this is a controversial political figure.Clearly, if detectives are looking into the motive, then clearly, surely high up on the list is political ideology.Why would the police seemingly rule it out at this stage, especially when they hadn't even had the suspect in custody for 12 hours?Seems a bit of a bizarre one.

Yeah, I'm sort of, I'm less exercised about this than everybody else seems to be.And when I say everybody else, I mean the media.

I think the public, the public are I'm a bit baffled by this as well, judging by LBC callers.

Well, where do you think the public are getting it from?No, well, listen, LBC callers.They're calling it.I know.And I've had plenty of conversations, including with LBC producers, over the past 48 hours.And everybody, look, the first, the prime responsibility of a police force, and the senior investigating officer in this case, was to catch a murderer, not to inform the public.

And I know that sounds very basic, and very blunt, and very, but that is not the case.their primary responsibility.But you've got to live in the real world.And the real world is, with 24 -7 media blanket coverage nationally and internationally, you've got to get it right.I think Devon and Cornwall were trying to get it right, hence the press conferences with very senior police officers.They understood that this would be incredibly Difficult for them, you know both in terms of keeping the investigation focused so they removed the senior investigating officer to get on with doing the job that they are paid to do so he or she was charged with the responsibility of finding a suspect and Capturing that alleged suspect and they've done that and what is you know, pretty short period of time a You know, there is a reason why we have a sort of 98 % clear up for homicide in this country, is that we're pretty good at murder investigation, whether you're Devon and Cornwall, Metropolitan Police, Cumbria, wherever, we're pretty good at it.

I think when the Chief Constable is saying that looked like policing at its best, it's because they were doing everything we described earlier on in this chat we're having.The detective was doing everything they possibly could to identify somebody, identified somebody, and now they've got somebody in custody.The mistake, and I think Devin and Cornwall will reflect and go, God, that was a bit of a mistake.And one that we tried to correct many years ago is we knew that this kind of speculation would happen.And it was really difficult because if anyone had a sniff that counterterrorism policing was involved in an investigation, It was really damaging for the public.The public started getting very, very scared, asking you guys lots of questions.

You'd get blanket coverage on it.You'd have rolling, particularly that Sky ticker tape.I think you remember that very well.That would be going all day with the same line or the same picture saying it's...And there were debates in Whitehall between government, counter -terrorism policing, in Cobras, about how you play incidents like this so that you manage public fear as well as trying to do the investigation.Now it was easy.

as it came, I think it was my deputy director of communications, brilliant, brilliant woman who was an expert in PR who came up with a single line saying, Look, so Devon and Cornwall, our major crime unit, our homicide specialists, people who are charged with investigating murders who are good at this.Don't forget, most terrorism officers are proactive detectives.They're not We shouldn't want to be murder detectives.We're trying to stop murders happening.So you've got this specialist unit.We're dealing with it.

But we're keeping an open mind as to the motive.And because we're keeping an open mind to the motive, and you are all thinking there may be a terrorism motive here, we are working with counterterrorism police who are working alongside us to assist us.And that will continue to happen until the point where we have established what the motive is.If it is a terrorist offense, counterterrorism policing will take over.That's what they should have said at that point.

know what has happened here which is effectively detectives did not have any motive and then during the police interview or the search of the suspect's home or the search of his devices that they discovered something however I'm not the only one baffled by the police communications.I mean, you're always on a hiding to nothing when you're saying this is policing at its finest and then a day later you're having to change the position.But I'm not the only one baffled.Wait, wait there.I'm not the only one baffled by this.Jonathan Hall, the government's independent reviewer of terrorism legislation, said he cannot understand why police steered the public away.

It's better to tell the public something that's true, he says, such as, we don't know what's going on, rather than appealing to rule something out and then 24 hours later having to reverse the position.That's not come from me, that's come from Jonathan Hall.

And Jonathan's job is the independent reviewer of counter -terrorism legislation, not the independent reviewer of police.

quite a criticism.

Yeah, but it's not his place to criticise.He's not the independent reviewer of police communications.What's happened here is the Devon and Cornwall police have made one clumsy statement whilst they're trying to investigate a murder with international you know, spotlight on them.They're not the Metropolitan Police Service, who does this many, many times.It was incredibly high pressured for them.And they made one mistake in their communication.

And all of a sudden, that makes Devon and Cornwall a terrible police force.I don't buy it.I don't get it.Counterterrorism policing, we're probably working alongside them throughout.I think if I was critical of anyone, it would be my old colleagues in counterterrorism policing.In my day, I would have been out the front of New Scotland Yard explaining who had gripped this and why.

So I do think at the point where they decided to take it over, and I don't know because I've been otherwise engaged, but has there been a counter -terrorism policing press conference about why they've taken over?Has Lawrence Taylor or Vicky Evans gone outside the front of the yard and said, this is what we've done?

But Lawrence Taylor, the head of counter -terrorism policing in the UK, he did release a statement yesterday explaining that they have now taken over the investigation because of new information and evidence, which has come to light.

Some police officers think courting the limelight is a bit of a stupid thing to do.But you've got to take the focus off Devon and Cornwall.And the easiest way to have done that would have been not to release a written statement, would go out in front of the cameras.Lawrence is really good at it.And the point of doing that is you see the head of counterterrorism for the United Kingdom standing there in all his finery.He's a fine figure of a man, Lawrence.

You've interviewed him.You know that.Shoulders back, tunic on, telling the public that you've got this gripped.I mean, you have got 650 terrified MPs.You've got the Speaker of the House talking about it.You've got people standing up in the House of Commons talking about this.

You have got to give the public reassurance.And in my view, it would have helped to do that.the weight off Devon and Cornwall, who I think are probably feeling pretty overwhelmed by now, and in my view, pretty unfairly criticized, given they have a suspect in custody.And we should wait for the outcome of that investigation.

The conspiracy theorists, not that I pay much attention to them, but it's impossible not to at some times, unfortunately.They're all saying that the police knew what was going on, They deliberately withheld the truth because they didn't want riots.Your response to that Mr Basu?

Even if that conspiracy theory was true, that's a pretty good reason for withholding commentary.Let me just remind people of what modern policing is founded upon the principle of saving life, preserving property and keeping the peace.Those are the basic fundamental tenets of being a police officer.If you have to hold, not lie or cover something up.

That's what they're saying, they're lying, that they knew the truth.

Lying about what?

Well, they're saying that they knew this was political.It must have been political.I mean, listen, if you're just the layman, which obviously all these keyboard warriors are, and some politicians, uninformed people, you look at the circumstances, right?You see a high -profile, controversial ex -politician, still a well -known public figure, allegedly murdered in her own home, you think, well, this has to be politically motivated.That is what the the conspiracy theorists are saying.And they're saying that the police deliberately withheld, not withheld, lied to the public.

They knew this was politically motivated, but they didn't say that because they didn't want an uprising.Listen, you and I know, I mean, the idea...

I'm going to say what I think.Wait there, wait there.Utter, utter bullshit.

Yeah, wait there.Yeah, good.I like that.Fair enough.You and I both know Police officers don't sit around in a meeting room and go, right, how can we lie to the public today?What lies should we tell them just to preserve the peace?

That's not how it works.How it works is they withhold information and it's entirely their right.If you actually look at the police communications now, compared to a few years ago, police release way more information than they used to, because of events a couple of years ago, like the Southport riots, in which case, where basically lies were allowed to fester, and police didn't say anything, and then all of a sudden, you had riots going on all around the country.So police communication, has been far better since then.But, as we've just discovered with this case, you can't win, you luck, can you?

We can't win, and I still say we, and my heart goes out to every...Look, my heart is forced first and foremost, and should be for all of us, with all of Anne Whittacombe's friends, of which there are many, and they've been very vocal, saying what an incredibly impressive, both politician and woman she was, who'd become a bit of a national treasure later in life.People are pretty heartbroken by this, so my heart goes out to them.The second group of people is a police service which is desperately trying to solve this crime for all of those people.family and friends of Anne Whittacombe to get her sense of justice.And where most police officers are sitting around is not in conspiracy theory.

They are trying to sit down and get the evidence they need to put a suspect before a British court of law and get them convicted.And that requires evidence.Nothing anybody thinks while we're all sitting comfortably in our armchairs at home is evidence.They have to work to that evidence.And the minute we all start speculating on who did what, when and where and to whom, because it's obvious That is, the very worst senior investigating officers in the world do that.They generally get fired pretty quickly, or it leads to miscarriages of justice.

You've got to find the evidence that proves or disproves somebody involved.The minute that speculation goes out, you get armchair detectives.online, everywhere, speculating on theories.You get actual keyboard warriors turning into real sleuths and turning up at crime scenes and contaminating crime scenes.Remember the Nicola Bully missing persons case?You get photographs released, sometimes from investigative journalism, but sometimes from the public.

We had security guards who would sell CCTV footage in counterterrorism policing investigations.So you get that out online, and you get people speculating on who may have done it, creating a whole raft of potential suspects for a senior investigating officer.Every single thing I've described there becomes a lead in a major incident room that you have got to dot the I on or cross the T on.Otherwise, you're giving the defense fantastic loopholes and attacks when you actually get the proper suspect in front of a court.It is massively unhelpful.It's never going to change.

You know, the genie's out the bottle.That's the world.Seems to be getting worse, Neil.Yeah, that's where senior investigating officers are today.So your heart has got to go out to somebody.I've been in that position.

The spotlight is on you.The world is looking at you to solve a crime.And this is what we're all doing in the background.It's a bit of a disgrace.I hope my employers, the current media organization, doesn't mind me saying that.But I think we have all got to think about our responsibility for justice for families, for how victims feel, for how communities feel.

And more importantly, what this is potentially doing to extremism, radicalization, and putting more people at risk in our country because of the way we report things.

Neil, this case has raised serious concerns about the security of political figures and MPs, so let's talk about that in a moment.This is what the Home Secretary told the Commons yesterday about security for MPs.

There is a question that is raised as a result of this murder which relates not just to the security arrangements for sitting members,of Parliament but for those who have left this place but nevertheless retain a public profile as a result of their political party membership or their political activities.There are also given the range of new political parties that are contesting the political and democratic space.I think questions about those who are not represented at all here in the House of Commons.And just to reassure you, Mr Speaker, I will be looking at those arrangements very closely.

Is this a big moment, Neil, in terms of security for MPs?I think a lot of people will assume that all MPs get security, either private security or police security.That is just not the case at all, is it?

No, and the first big moment was when Joe Cox was murdered by Thomas Mayer, shouting Britain first.And that was a real wake up call for Parliament about the vulnerability of MPs, particularly in their own constituencies where they're not behind the armed guards that we have patrolling Westminster.So once you're behind those gates in Westminster, There is a sense of security they do not get out in their constituencies where the job of a democracy is to meet your constituents.So it's very hard to sort of wall yourself off or to do it all online or to do it all behind a screen.The idea is that you are going to be available to your constituents.And that terrified them.

The murder of Joe Cox terrified them.We set up the parliamentary, we had a parliamentary liaison and investigations team within parliament itself for any MP who was feeling under threat.And what was terrible was the rising number of death threats, threats to kill and abuse, just horrific abuse in the inbox of every MP.I mean, particularly female MPs, particularly black and Asian MPs.And if you were female, black or female, Asian, you were in trouble because your inbox was overflowing.And of course, you have private secretaries, you have personnel who are working

for you, you have canvassers in your all of whom were feeling at risk.So there was a lot of security reviews done by the parliamentary security people who work with parliamentary liaison and investigations team and are actually an independent body for which the Speaker of the House and the heads of security in the House of Commons and House of Lords is responsible.They have a budget.That budget was massively increased.People were given security measures in their constituency surgeries.The sort of DEFCON one, to use an American expression, is full armed protection for individuals who are at major threat and risk.

And I think this is the conversation.

You're talking prime minister, foreign secretary, home secretary, that type of level.

Yeah, there are actually very few people protected to that level because the cost is extraordinary.I was doing a bit of maths in the tube on the way over here to say if we wanted to protect 650 members of parliament with close armed protection in the tactics that would make them secure you'd need four and a half thousand more armed bodyguards trained tomorrow and it takes probably about a police officer five to 10 years to get the experience to even go through the course that allows them.And then that course is a pass or fail course, which a lot of people fail to become a protection officer.Basically, it is not viable.So you have to triage the people who are most at threat and risk and for whom the political impact would be enormous.Now, of course, in public life, members of Parliament should be very, very high on that list, because any political assassination is a complete threat to democracy.

So there is a reason why they do need to be having this conversation again.increasing that budget again and probably, you know, particularly prioritizing certain members of Parliament who have drawn more abuse than others and Nigel Farage does sit in that.

There was a report in the iPaper that Nigel Farage actually turned down taxpayer -funded security including a bodyguard, a car,and a train driver last year.

That's a half a million pound package.That car is £250 ,000.And two highly trained police officers probably working around the clock.One who will be a hostage and hijacked trained driver.That is an incredibly difficult course to pass.And they'll probably both have been armed.

You're talking the best of the best here, right?Yeah, that's a half a million pound package.But it seems as though the reform leader is going to be meeting the agency that looks after the security for MPs soon after taking up this offer from Shabana Mahmood.

That famous RAVC, the Royalty and VIP Executive Committee.Independent of the Home Secretary who appoints the Chair, but that person has to decide based on threat and risk and political impact whether or not a person gets protection and yeah, my understanding is he'll be meeting that person.

How many MPs do you think will be wanting to do the same?I imagine quite a lot.

Oh, probably most MPs, even after the murder of David Amess, coming relatively soon after the murder of Joe Cox.There are a lot of MPs, and David was one of them after the murder of Joe Cox, who did not want to be separated from his constituents, did not want the kind of security measures that a rock star or a prime minister or a president would have that keeps them apart.They didn't want that.You know, they were very kind of robust.And you'll have at least a percentage of MPs who are like that.But I would say probably In the low hundreds, you will have people who are genuinely terrified.

But it isn't just them.We had members of Parliament who refused to stand again for election after the abuse they got during the Brexit debates and referendum.We had MPs who were, including somebody I knew very well, the ex -council leader of Barnett, Mike Freer, who made it very clear he was stepping down because this had become too dangerous.People's acceptability for political violence has risen.And that combination there should scare us as a democracy.We are going to have to do more about it.

But we're also going to have to do more to prevent it.And that goes somewhere in the way that we converse with each other.

Just to update people at the time of recording at 10am.on Tuesday morning.The current situation is that the suspect was rearrested yesterday on suspicion of the commission preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism.And that means that under terrorism legislation, the suspect can be held for up to 14 days for questioning and searches on his home or continuing.So that's where we're at.Neil, thank you for turning down dozens of producers in the last 24 hours.

I can't turn you and Guy down.I need to practice my own resilience skills.

No, but listen, you can always hear the thoughts of Mr Basu exclusively here on The Crime Agents.Thanks for tuning in.Let's leave it there for this week.That's it from me.Goodbye.

And goodbye from me.