Gerrard: Speaking to Salah, Returning to Liverpool & Support for Slot | Stick to Football EP 123

There's normally no-one here.

No.

Cos you're here.

Really? Yeah, all come to see Stevie J. Yeah, not an hour of me. Where is Nev?

Er...

Business probably, isn't he? Sorting hotel out.

Where do you want me to go?

This one, Stevie.

This one?

This one, yeah.

Cheers, mate, thank you. Do you want a tea or a coffee? I'll take a bit, yeah. I know how much money is in that. Tea or a coffee?

I'll have a coffee, please, yeah.

Flat white or what do you want?

Anything meat, yeah.

Had a loss these days? Percy Pigs. No, I can't play because I've got a match on Saturday. Oh, you've got the legends game? Charity game, yeah. Dummy baching. Playing paddle?

Dummy baching, playing paddle.

How you up?

How are you?

You alright?

Good, you?

Well, mate, yeah.

What, so you still don't like playing the game? Yeah, I'm fine playing the game. I just don't want to make it worse. You good, Stevie? Great, mate, yeah, really good. Do you play paddle? He's massive into paddle.

No, no. No. I thought you did play, I see your pitch is up and going now. I played it in Qatar a couple of times when we went to the World Cup, and then... I've played it since a couple of times, but...

I love it.

Proper love it.

Who do you play with?

Anyone. Liverpool players played out there? I think they did because they had one at the training ground. Klopp was massive.

You don't play there?

I've had a little go now and again but... It's not mad in Liverpool, is it? Is it mad in Manchester? Yeah, it's nice courts everywhere. It's easy to keep a few calories off. You don't look like you've got a calorie problem. I hadn't it well.

Hiding it well. What are them kits like at the weekend?

Oh, that's when you'll see it.

That's when you'll see it. I saw him on last season when he was going to take a corner. I was like, 4K there, what's going on there?

Definitely a size up in the shorts this year.

How are you? It's all good to see. Is that what you're saying? It's a fake laugh, that.

Okay, okay.

He can't be that happy.

You know why?

No, it's just something happened, because my guy's here.

You say that to everybody.

Are you okay?

My guy, mate, everyone's my guy.

I love him, G!

I love Steve Gerrard, bro!

Jesus, I love Stevie G!

Jill.

Jill. Jill. I forgot her top. I forgot her top.

This is like a large thing.

Yes, Jill.

Oversized.

You wear it well.

You've got to do a hug.

Look how well you wear it.

It goes with your trousers as well. Yeah, good, thanks.

It's a nice top.

I'll just tie it.

It's a nice top. I swear, yeah. It'd be amazing if you don't. At some point in the next hour and a half.

Changed.

Do it in your cell, you know. LAUGHTER He's gone to the iron shop in the pool. I've been. Yeah, I need to go in again. That company was sold yesterday, wasn't it? Read about that.

Yeah, billion quid. Look at the hue.

Look what we've done. It looks well, the set, by the way.

Looks good. Yeah, it does look good.

Do you drink Heineken? I love Heineken as well.

Same old percent. No, no, no, clearly not.

LAUGHTER Do you want one? No, no, no, I'm just joking. LAUGHTER

What do you do during the day, Stevie?

Now you're obviously not managing at the moment. Doing a bit of paddle. Got the golf clubs back out, school runs. Wow. Been sucked into that world, I love it.

I like it, you know. There's a paddle court here, you know, we should play. I'm not in it.

Yeah, literally next door. I'm not really a gym person going and lifting weights.

How long could you do when you do a parallel session?

A couple of hours. You could play all day, couldn't you? It's not like physical. Two, three times a week. If that does me, then I don't have to go to the gym. It's a bit of timber.

You're sweating, fuck it.

Oh, yeah. But it's not where you're blowing. Yeah. I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not gonna lie, Got slapped up badly. Did you play it? No, he just told me the story so I thought I'd throw it in. No, I don't play the pad. 4-1, 4-1, they done me.

Is it?

I was gutted for about three days. I said to Tim, first time I've ever f****** won. I got him out of cover and I was like, oh...

Were they really good though?

I saw a point... but Tim was brilliant. I can imagine him. But you have to be good at one sport, don't you?

Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing.

You spoke to Mo Salah direct? Yeah, I spoke to him direct, yeah. You've been a king here, you've got this legacy and stuff. Go on your terms the right way. You're very lucky he didn't play right back.

He did play right back.

I know, but if he'd have played there longer, you wouldn't have played for England. I played...

I played...

I was, like, what the f*** is he knocking at my door for?

What do you want?

He considered it for three seconds.

Three longer than I thought. He put a piece of paper in front of me and said, write down on that how much you want? LAUGHTER He invited me round for dinner, and it was just to tell me that I wasn't playing against United. So, yeah, that 38 seconds was coming from Thursday night. I had a period after Villa where my head was done in for months.

Would you have been an assistant to someone at Liverpool?

I would do it for Liverpool Football Club.

If Xabi Alonso came to Liverpool, which has been mooted...

Just see the headline now, Nick. You've got to add one slot to get the sack. How are you going to fall for it? That's what you brought me in for.

Let's start with this season on Liverpool before we move into your career.

What's...

Kieran. Nice one, Kieran.

He's so epic, Kieran. What do you make of Liverpool this season? You obviously watch quite a bit of them. Well, I've really enjoyed watching them in the Champions League,

because I think they look a completely different team when they've gone into the big Champions League games, and I think they're in a decent place. They're really tough, asking them going into the next one against PSG, but a lot of the games I've gone to I've enjoyed watching them. In the league, they look very different. I haven't really enjoyed watching them.

It looks as if they've got a lot of issues to fix. I've covered some of the games as well for TNT and after the game it's been difficult to put your finger on one issue that they've got, because they've got quite a few and it's all over the pitch. So they've been very mixed and very two-faced, I'd say, as a team this season.

How has that happened from going from brilliant champions last season, stability, not obviously signing a player the previous summer,

what's... you say now they've got a lot of issues to fix? The first signs of the issues they've got now at the moment, I've seen it in the League Cup final, I travelled over from Bahrain, I took my lad to the game, went into the game really confident that they'd beat Newcastle, although I like how Eddie sets his teams up and knew it would be a difficult game, but they just dominated us

from start to finish, they just bullied us. And that was the first time I thought, ooh, that's so far away from what I was watching a few months before. And then as the league sort of filtered out then, there was a lot of these type of performances that don't look like the previous Liverpool team.

Quite passive, disconnected, out of shape, easy to get through. That's what a lot of the supporters are talking about, Andy. And you're seeing it a lot more in recent weeks. Obviously we know, we're closer to it, we go the game, you're mates, you're family,

but you're talking about this season, but a lot of Liverpool supporters are looking at what you said, it's almost like that Paris Saint-Germain game, months, that it's almost been a lot like that, hasn't it? Yeah, I think obviously he took over a club team and I still think a lot of the values and behaviours in that team carried on through. And I think he's obviously...

His style has been a nice match, they've got a new manager, a new voice, been like a breath of fresh air to a certain point. But I think some of the issues they're having this season, for me, watching as a fan from the outside and from afar, and going to some games, is it's been happening at the back end of last season as well.

I mean, look at what you've just said there. I think a lot of people, I certainly was expecting a massive drop-off after Klopp left. Is that drop-off coming as a delayed drop-off because of the fact that you just had a run-off there of the Klopp team almost and then now Is it a case where they stay with him because this would have always have happened that the Klopp team was coming to the end You know the Salah

Obviously Van Dijk now and things like it's a natural thing with it for them to stay with it Or do you think the managers got a problem?

Maybe a combination of both. I really like the manager. I think he's really honest. I hear really good things of him as a coach, and his style and his tactics and his details, I hear really, really good things, I've never watched him close or think, I think he's really honest in the media, maybe sometimes too honest. But as a Liverpool fan now, and just someone who's been an ex-player and sort of knows a little bit on the inside what most normal punters would know,

these Liverpool fans, once they get to this stage, it's very difficult to get them back around, from my own personal experiences and what I've seen. Very difficult to get them back around.

I mean, Karras always said this, not necessarily yourself, but the manager at Liverpool is the God, that's the person, the figurehead that everybody looks towards. Why is it different this time? Because this guy seems crazy from a position that United are in, to take an example, you won a Premier League literally seven months ago, surely he has credit in the bank that means that's...

How's he got to this position? He has with me because I know more than anyone on the planet how difficult it is to win a league, and for him to win a league in his first season, being asked and getting asked questions in the media a long time, what do you think, does it need to change and blah blah blah. He's got a lot more credit with me. You know how difficult it is, Jamie will tell you, the pool of demand,

they expect to win it every year. So I think he needs the opportunity to sort of play his way out of trouble and fix the issues and try and get himself back in a good place and I think he did during that period a few months ago where they'd lost 9 out of 12 but then they went on a run where he took them from 12th to 4th in the league and I think someone who's won a league deserves at least a full season to try and get out of the problems and the issues that they've got. I'm certainly one of them people but I have to understand what the fans are saying as well because it has been dire on

certain games and performances, like really dire.

What do you make of the Mo Salah situation? Were you shocked?

No, not at all. I think it's in everyone's best interests now. I think the timing's right in my opinion, especially after the... He's obviously had a disagreement with the manager, I don't know at what level. Because obviously he's done the interview, which I think he'll regret further down the line. But that told me that he was an issue there. I think also even going back before that, I think Liverpool as a club probably only wanted to give Mo Salah one year rather than

the two because he had such an outstanding season and he was relentless and his numbers were great. They have given him a two-year. But for me, I've only really ever seen it as another one year at that level. We've all played in them years and stuff. I just think for everyone, it's in everyone's interests for it to end, but also end on Mo Salah's terms.

So I spoke to him around that interview at the time and sort of said to him, look don't do what you've done and go under a cloud. Yeah I spoke to him direct. Were you rang him? Well he texts me now and again or I text him now and again, more to do with him from going somewhere with Leo, just so Leo can see him really but I'm not like close to him But it gave me the opportunity to say to him,

look, you've been here for eight, nine years, you've been a King here, you've got this legacy and stuff, just go on your terms the right way. Yeah.

How was he when you say that?

Still a little bit emotional from the incident, and he was subbing, he was in and out of the team at the time, he was sub and he was in and out of the team at the time, he was upset. But I just thought it would have been a shame if he left in January and he just left.

Was that a consideration at the time, do you think?

Not sure, not sure, don't know.

Do you understand, I mean, look, you're one of the greatest players that Liverpool have ever had, he's one of the greatest players that Liverpool have ever had, he's one of the greatest players that Liverpool have had. Do you understand when you're sort of getting towards the end and he's sort of been left out and that type of player, I've said this to Roy a couple of weeks ago, you do think differently than say for instance I would or maybe Carol.

I understand both sides of it now that I've done a bit of management myself I understand both sides of it. I think it was a, I had a similar thing with Brendan, but when I look back at it now and I'm out of the game, less emotional, you understand it from where Brendan is. Maybe you're not the same player at 34, 35, there's no real way you should or you have to play every minute of every game just because you're the captain and stuff, but at the time, it's not easy when you're in the team and the squad and you're about to play United for example and you're sober and you're looking at the players that are playing you think I'm still as good if not better than them players. It's difficult

in the players situation but I had the situation at Rangers with Jermain Defoe who was brilliant for me, top around the place, best professional you'll work with. He wanted to play more and play a lot of the Minerva game because he was in the position I was in under Brendan. But as a manager you have to do what's right and what's best for the team and if someone's out of form or not playing or can't do the job that you're looking for, as a manager you have to make big decisions.

It looks to me that it's probably, you said before, on Salah's terms and it's probably his decision to say, you know, I want to move on, he's given the interview. But listening to you and speaking to you privately, you moved on to LA Galaxy. You actually regret that, don't you? Did you wish you'd have stayed at Liverpool? I don't regret it in terms of I enjoyed it and they looked after me there. In MLS terms, it's a good club but if he had me time again, Liverpool offered me a year extension but Brendan, my conversations with Brendan, Brendan saying look your game time's gonna change

it's not gonna be how it was before but you know I would love to stay around and maybe we could sort of try and get a connection onto the staff and coaching and we can help you through that and all that and it sounded alright but my head, I just wanted to play. I still loved playing football. I didn't like being sub. So, in the end, I come to the decision

where I just want to go somewhere and just enjoy football. Just play football for another couple of years until my body can't do it anymore, and then stop on my terms. But in hindsight, Klopp took over a lot earlier than what I thought. I would have stayed and maybe tried to, you know...

Is it all about the minutes or can you treat the player with respect where you can put the minutes down and you can still have that working relationship?

Yeah, but the evidence in the weeks leading up to these conversations were that it was going to be a lot more sub appearances than starts. It's just different when you're sub and when you're used to playing and being a main part of something. And that's on me as much as anyone else. I'm not saying like Brendan...

Would you change that now though? Would you change it?

Me?

Yeah, if you went back now and Brenda presented that play 30 games at Liverpool, we've had this conversation a lot on it, is it better to play 30 games at Liverpool where you're sub 20 times versus playing 35 games or 40 games at LA Galaxy?

I've got a bit of experience, yeah. Yeah, I'd have had to have took the Liverpool one. That was the clop factor as well, wasn't it? I think Evade just said you wish you could have... Yeah, yeah. A little bit of the Klopp factor, yeah. You went to LA Galaxy with Salah, now do you think Salah will do an MLS or a Saudi right now, or do you think, you know him obviously better than us, that I can still play at the top level, I could go to another big club in another country? Obviously the relationship I've got with him, he'll still have himself down as one of the best players in the world. Yeah, I think so.

And I think that's the reason why the fallouts come apart, that he was probably struggling with the transition of a manager saying, you're not starting today. And what? You're messing around, you're still one of the best players in the world. I think that's his mentality and I think there's top plays and then there's them ones that are at the very top that are a little bit freakish in terms of their mentality and how they think

and he's one of them where he's just, I'm the best, I'm the best, I'm the best.

Well it's not to be admired though, you know we talk about...

Yeah I love that.

You might have had Stevie, go back to Ronaldo, not necessarily my case towards you, people like Ronaldo and Salah is to ease off a little bit. They've got all the big prizes, they're on huge contracts, but they want to play. And I think it's well and good looking back even on yourself, going, ah, maybe, I think you stick to your guns. And if you're used to playing, you stick with that. That's what made you play.

The thing as well is, you know, the Chelsea situation around that year when we were so close and we, you know, I was still sort of like, bubbling away a little bit Still bubbling away and I thought, do you want to go and play football? I thought staying around with Brendan's always going to come up Every interview, every press conference, blah blah blah I was like, just go away and enjoy the last bit of your career

Because I still felt good, not what I felt mid-twenties But I still felt like I could

Which you think was a relief for Brendan We were talking about the manager of Liverpool, sometimes you're in the background and you're not playing, if you move on you go,

that does save me a lot of hassle doesn't it?

Yeah and I think there was a little bit maybe, I don't know, maybe speaking out of turn here, but with you with Brendan as well, like maybe Brendan was trying to create something where he wanted the bigger players, or evolve or transition this squad of players into something different. You do become a problem though, characters like you on the bench. Well I did become a problem Gary because I'll give you one example

and you know it very well, you were probably jumping all over your settee when I got sent off against United after the tasting. That was coming on the Thursday night because I went round to Brendan's house, he invited me round for dinner, I'd trained really well in the week leading into it, it was the Thursday, we were playing on the Saturday half 12 kick-off. We drew to Swansea I think just before and I came off the bench and done quite well and I'd trained like I was thinking

I need to get back on this team because I think we're going to be sub against United. I was playing on my mind before, so he invited me round to the house and all that and it was just to tell me that I wasn't playing against United and I just, honest to God, you should have seen me walk back to the house, I lived two minutes round the corner, honestly, I was just like that.

You should have smelled something though when he was making your dinner.

No, no.

Just bad news coming in.

I was about to go and ask you about the day because it's quite strange for a manager to

ask a player round the house for dinner? No listen he was great at the time, I think it was more like he was asking me questions like would you like to be part of the staff eventually and blah blah blah. Brendan's always been fantastic, it wasn't a personal issue, it was more me, I just couldn't get my head around the fact that I'm playing United on Saturday afternoon, I was going to be sub and with all due respect Joe Hall and Lucas Leiva's good players but at the time I still felt I was better than them. So yeah, that 38 seconds was coming from Thursday night but that's me. It's not anyone else's fault but that's an example of what I'm talking about.

Like, things like that I think I've just got to go and enjoy the rest of my career and just slow down a bit and see around.

Did Jordan Henderson have the same issues? Did he? No, Jordan, when he was... Did he hang on with Klopp and he was saying, you're not going to play many games?

And he went off and he probably regressed that a little bit, Jordan.

Almost every player I speak to who left Liverpool, so Jordan's probably one. Obviously, you've mentioned, you'd love to have played with Klopp. Speaking to Robbie Fowler, and they're all players about who are used to playing and everybody always says the same thing. They wish they'd have stayed. Michael as well.

Yeah, but I've never played for no club, so I can't understand probably what it must be. Maybe a drop from one of the real biggest clubs in the country to a level down. It's just interesting that everybody always says the same thing.

When you said play 15 or 20 games, that was a big drop-off, Gary, isn't it? It's your whole mindset.

Yeah.

Play every week to go down to play 15 or 20.

You know what it was?

That happened to me at the end, didn't it? With the... Probably the last 18 months for me. You know what the thing for me was? I was embarrassed. You know that thing when the team play over the weekend and you're as good as everyone, everyone comes in really happy You don't feel part of that

And then they get looked after They get looked after, you know, warmed down You're usually doing your warm down and everyone's buzzing with them And you're over there with the reserves and a few young lads And everyone's doing a proper training session on the Monday and all the lads are just getting warmed up and having a bit of banter and you're just studying and what the fuck am I doing?

You've got to run round them first, haven't you?

Oh, just close!

And it's like, just embarrassed of you, just, oh no.

Steve, just quickly, I mean, look, you've both said the same thing now

and your knowledge of Mo Salah is far greater and he don't think it's right for him to go to the US or Saudi No I'm not saying it's not the right thing for him to go anywhere I was asked the question in his head Where does he see himself?

Is he going to shock us though? Has he got a shock in his way? I'm going to put something ridiculous out there He rocks up at Chelsea, Arsenal

I think it's...

He rocks up at...

No I don't think he'd do that. But I can't see, I'll be really honest with you, visually... I wouldn't be surprised if it's another big club somewhere else, but I don't think he'd do it to a rival.

It's not going to be Barcelona or Real Madrid, they're not going to take him.

I could see Italy.

I could see him in some of those. I think it'll be Salahdi. That's what I thought, but he said not. He said he thought Italy, he thought he'd want to play at Italy. That wouldn't surprise me or shock me, but if I had to put money on it, I would say... But I think a big baller like you, I still think he thinks... And why not? I'm still one of the best players in the world.

That's almost retiring going there, in my eyes. two or three years somewhere and then you decide. Yes, that wouldn't surprise me. I just don't, look I don't know, I might be wrong,

he's been to Italy before, I don't see Barcelona or Real Madrid. Is that why I said Italy? Yeah, but I think someone like that, I could see him for instance in a different time going to say Paris Saint-Germain,

I could see him being in Paris and going to there, These players usually have egos that mean that they have to play at a club that suits their brand,

Would he get frustrated with the standard? He's the number one over there. Would he get frustrated with the standard or not? Do you think just of your experience?

No, because there's some good teams at the top end there. He'd be playing with good players as well. Very good players. And you have eight foreign players, so he'd be playing under a good manager. And he'd be playing with good players.

You've said that you had a situation as a manager with Jermain Defoe where he was coming and wanting to play. Have you ever had a more difficult situation with a player that's been sort of, because Jermain's just a good guy isn't he? Brilliant. He's a brilliant guy, he's not going to fall out with you, he's going to have a proper conversation.

Is there anybody that you've had in your managerial career that's been difficult that you thought In a different way, Morelos at Rangers was tough to manage. Maverick behaviours.

He was at the centre forward, right?

Yeah, so important to Rangers because he was the goals. But he was challenging. He'd bend the rules and after he'd scored a brace or at Atza, he always knew something was sorted in the post, either him being late or something, an incident.

And how do you deal with that when he says goalscorer, he's a brilliant player and he's breaking the rules like that?

Look, when you're going into a job, you want to try and set rules and values of your team and stuff like that, but there is...

Not a goalscorer, he can do what he wants.

Not at that age.

I've got principles, but you can do what you want. Sometimes you have to bite your tongue and turn a blind eye to one or two. It's just trying not to get caught by the other players when you're doing it. He was so important to Rangers and I knew he was so important. I knew the time would come where I could get into a place where he's maybe less as important. That's why I brought Dafoe in, that's why I brought Kemar Ruf in, because when he was having these periods where he would be challenging or breaking rules and your values, Defoe and Kemar Ruf were itching to come on and play and they were as good

as him. Jermain was much better than him at the age. But they were the reason why we won the league, because their goals in the team and the squad is how we eventually won.

Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. This advertisement is brought to you by Huel. Don't tell us what we're doing on Huel this morning. We've been brand ambassadors for Huel now for...

A very long time.

A very long time, and we've been talking about these 26 grams of, 26 vitamins and minerals and 26, 25 grams of protein.

And they've just sold. Yeah, so we've reaped the benefits physically, but not monetarily.

So we've been drinking this for 12 months, promoting them. They were valued probably about 10 quid before we started promoting them, weren't they? Aye? And now they've valued it a billion. To be fair, I'd never heard of Hugh before we put them on this show. And I do drink it now.

Exactly, and so do I. And we were looking for our little commission-based sort of share thing. Will you still be able to get them,

or will they want a different deal now that they've been bought out? Oh, it could be a lot more difficult to deal with from now on. Will it be? Will it?

Yeah.

Who's they been bought out by? We can't say.

Do you know Dunon? Oh, Dunon! Have you ever seen the advert? It's in the advert.

Oh, Dunon!

LAUGHTER

Will the overlap still use Huel on the back of this deal? Well, I mean, we'll just have to reshape our deal with them, aren't we? Obviously, I mean, this one's got 35 grams of protein. What would you want out of it? What do you think's fair? I think, to be fair, the impact we've had on the business and the share price would seem to have been significant, wouldn't it, Jamie?

No, I guess, what are you talking, out of it a little villa somewhere? A little villa in France where the Danone offices are. Job well done. And by the way, yeah, we've converted carrot. Your health benefits are that you... I mean, look at me.

Yeah.

This black edition one is my favorite, the vanilla. Can't get away from the vanilla.

That sums you up as a player, doesn't it? Vanilla.

And a man.

Get our special offer on all the Huel range. New customers get our exclusive discount plus a free gift at huel.com forward slash the overlap. Let's talk about your managerial career. Do you love it?

I've enjoyed parts of it. I've had some difficult times as well. Obviously when you get the sack it's not nice. I had a period after Villa where my head was done in for months. It was a tough one. I understood it. You have a run of form like we did at the back end. Responsibility was all on me. I accepted it.

In my own time, sitting around gutted because I thought there was a real big opportunity going into the first full season to really build on a half decent start. So that was a tough one for me. And you said to me, I completely get it, and I've been there where you almost feel like everyone's looking at you, you feel like, what was that feeling? I was having mixed emotions, felt sorry for myself a little bit, felt a bit bitter,

felt a little bit useless. You do, you go through all these different emotions, but you eventually come round to thinking again that it's part of it. You have to own it, take it on the chin and get yourself ready for the next opportunity.

But I still sit here now and think to myself, what I've seen from November to May, and then the signings we made, I thought it was a real opportunity to kick on. And we never delivered that, so I have to take that on the chin.

You know, you go from Rangers, you don't just win the league, it was an invincible win, you didn't lose a game, did you? When you won the league with Rangers? Not when we won it, no. So you go from that and then you make the step to Villa and the level of, I mean the managers you're coming up against. The level was a big jump. Probably didn't realise at the time when I made that decision but in hindsight again, we talk about hindsight,

we'd all be great with hindsight wouldn't we? Would have stayed at Rangers longer, more experience, stay up there for longer. So I regret doing it now, sitting here, I didn't at the time because I felt like it was tough. And also the conversations with Rangers after we won it. The recruitment and the finance chats that we were having. Didn't feel like Rangers were ready to go again. It was a bit more of a like, oh let's settle this and fix that and do that and the promise was weighing as strong as it was what I thought they would be.

Then the premiership offer and opportunity comes and it's tough. It's tough to say no to that Villa are a great club and I've got nothing bad to say about Villa. I need to get that in as well because Villa, really good club, good people, fantastic facilities the opportunity was given to me and it didn't work out so that's on me Steve, you mentioned there about the step-up I always go back to something you said about being on Valencia

and I think at the Premier League the coaches are just like you know, great coaches are probably not even getting the biggest jobs and you talk about being on the sideline and sort of like, feeling a bit like, you know, the other coaches got more experience, you mentioned like Simeone and Valverde. And when you said the step up, is that, you're talking about actually your team with your team, were you talking about actually on the pitch where managers are actually changing things in games or... Yeah, well both really because that happened to us against City, we played City at Villa Park.

I think we drew the game and Pep was changing every like 10 minutes. It was nuts, you had to change all the time. So the level of managers that you're competing against definitely is a step up. The demand, the pressure, the media around it. So, Rangers are a huge club. The demand never changed because you draw at Rangers or Celtic and there's a major stewards' inquiry into what's going on and the demand up there to win every game is nuts. So it wasn't a step up in terms of that on me, but just the whole

level of the Premier League and the expectation, the size and the media around it. It was a jump up in terms of football level and coaching level.

Was it too much of a jump? I've said this to you very openly, I felt out of my depth on the touchline. I played against Atletico Madrid with Simeone and there was almost an inevitability that I knew in the second half they were almost suffocating us. I felt like there was almost an inevitability that I knew in the second half they were almost like suffocating us I felt like there was anything I could do that could change it Valverde changed three times within about half an hour of a game

I think there was certain opponents that you were on the side where you thought if we get this wrong here you could get a pasting I felt a bit like that at Anfield even though the only beat us 1-0. I felt like if we weren't pragmatic and sort of taking stuff away from Liverpool, the speed that they were playing at, you were thinking oh we could get a pasting here and City were like that but more in a possession way. Last game of the season, Villa we were 2-0 up when City were going for it. And I'm thinking to myself, we can do this because we were comfortable

for a certain amount of time. And then they brought some changes on the last 20 minutes of the game. Wendell and Kep were going, yeah. It was like you were on a pinball machine. They just changed the speed,

changed the level and it was just like... And I could see it in the players, everything we were asking the players to do, they were just like, are you messing? It's just like, whoa, what's going on? De Bruyne put about six crosses in in about two seconds.

Yeah.

Honestly. That's what you used to do? You know, I think there's certain teams in the Premier League that when they go to a certain level, they can bamboozle you with quality and speed and...

How much input are you getting in them moments, from assistants? No, because sometimes you see...

It's a bit of a blur to be honest. There's not much you can do against a great team, you just have to take your medicine. It's a bit of a blur, it just is. You said you like parts of it, it's not a negative answer,

but it's an answer that means what parts of it don't you like and what parts of it do you like? Well, what I mean by that, I love the competing. I love being at the dressing room, being around the boys, the training and stuff like that. But there is, you know, there's stuff around it where you think, interviews, interviews, interviews, media, criticism, blah, blah, blah. There is parts of it that are not great.

It is a stressful job, we all know that.

How did you come out of that? So you obviously live Villa, and what are you thinking then, what are you thinking in terms of your mindset about how you get back on the legs?

Just try and get more games in, really, more experience. Try different things, go abroad, something outside the box, something a little bit different to get more games in. That was the thinking at the time, but for probably six months, nine months after Villa, I just wanted a bit of a break from it, not managing coaching, just footy

Just wanted to be free around the family From school I've always just been football, football, football So I wanted to go and do a few different things away from football You don't get the chance to do so, just take some time Have you got another job in your state? Possibly, yeah

I'm not throwing my CV around, I'm not itching, I'm not sort of desperate for any opportunity, but if the phone goes, the phone's gone a few times recently and it just hasn't been the right thing. But if something comes that's right, I'll be open to a conversation for sure.

Is it easier to be, and I'm saying it asking because there's a number of examples of this, like you both have been world class players, is it easier to be a top player to go into management or not to be a top player and go into management?

Do you understand what I mean by that? I think there's more scrutiny on players that have played at the top when they go in, I think I've felt that I suppose. But look, I think that the key for me is understanding what you bring to the table, what are your strengths, what are you good at? I'm not going to sit here and tell you I'm the best coach in the world because I'm not, because there's been people that have come out of careers earlier and

been coaching for 25 years who would be a lot more slicker than me around the training session. I think it's about creating a strong staff team, staff group, where you've got all the skill sets covered within your group that are going to service the players and give them the best possible chance of winning. But for me, I think one of my strengths is understanding what I do bring to the table, what I'm good at, my strengths, and then trying to get other people around me that can help me do it. I think, just chipping in there,

you're sort of saying the pressure you're under when you're a big name. Did you see the reaction to Ashley Cole playing his first game, didn't he?

Yeah.

His first game as manager, I know he's been in coaching. I don't even know that much about it. Is it an Italian... Susina. But what league are they in? The second league His first game, I think they lost And it was like a bit of a story, it was popping up on your phone

It's his first game as a manager

You don't get that if you're not actually cold You can tell him when he makes his mistakes a little bit in the background I think he won his last game didn't he? Yeah

And Roy will tell you as well, if you're going through a bit of a sticky period If he comes more, you know, more incest and more people want to come. There's pluses and minuses. You do sometimes, ex-players who play at a certain level do get a better, more opportunity to go in there, but when you're in there, the pressure. And of course, the first thing that happens if you go through a sticky patch is, oh, you'll never be as good a manager as you were a player. It's a completely different job. You're learning like every other manager, Let's have a break when you're in the job. It does open doors for you sometimes, but when you're in it, then it's...

Yeah, and I've experienced both sides of that. So, for example, getting the Rangers job probably come more on the fact that I was a Liverpool player at a certain level. So I totally understand what he's saying there.

Well, you said that the phones rang to you before and you've sort of not thought it was the right opportunity. Are they calls from clubs in this country? And what sort of level are you thinking you... Is it this country you want to manage in? What level would you go back? Would you go in at Championship, like say Frank's done? Would you go in at League One?

Or would you want to still... No, listen, there's no ego here. There's no like, oh, I think I'm above any levels or no. is that on the table? What are you trying to achieve? Is it realistic? What's available to support you in the role that you're going to go into? But there's no ego here, of course. Most of the calls that I've had since I came out of my last job would be around championship level.

You've played with some great managers. Which of the managers do you most recognise in yourself

and who have you pulled most out of? I'd probably say Rafa and Julien. Erm... Probably took the most from them, yeah. Took a lot from Brendan as well in terms of the sessions were really good, great variety, players you always really enjoy,

the build-up into games and stuff. And Brendan, erm... You know, learnt a lot of different things compared to the previous managers I worked with. I worked under a lot of pragmatic, organised coaches throughout my Liverpool career and some were England, if you think Capello.

Sven.

Sven. Brendan brought a bit of a freshness in terms of being more of a dominant coach with the ball and the possession. I learnt a lot of things. But I think you want to be yourself first and foremost. You want to obviously go in and if you're taking a job on and you're going to take the responsibility that you've got to be yourself. But of course it'd be stupid if you don't

try and learn and remember things and take things from all the coaches, but not just the ones you've worked with. When you watch the telly, you know, when you're watching or Super Sunday, I still learn off the lads and listen to a lot of it. So I'm open to try and get better and keep learning, of course, but at the same time, work-life balance at the moment for me is brilliant.

It's great. It's the best period of my life with no stress.

We've talked about that for years. You've talked about it for years, the idea of the perfect work-life balance, where obviously we still talk about football, we still watch football but we're obviously not on the touchline to be fair the cold face. Is there a place whereby you could see yourself just sort of settling into the TV, the punditry, doing the games that you do and then

basically not going back into coaching?

Yeah, I'm okay with that. That's not a problem. I enjoy covering some of the games. I enjoy having quite a bit of free time. Probably the best part I've had from a family point of view for, well, ever really in terms of being there, being presently, I was eight now. During his career I've been in Scotland, I've been in Birmingham.

So, yeah, really enjoying the family side of it and having a load of free time, but also I'm conscious that I wanna stay busy enough where I'm doing enough for a change. I can't not see you at Liverpool at some stage. I'm not talking about like... I'm just talking about like...

Your connection with the club is so like... You absolutely love the club. Do you understand what I mean? I love Liverpool but I always feel when I look at you... And I've never really said this to you before. I'm not talking about like, going in to manage, I'm sure you'd love to do that one day, but,

it just feels to me, sooner or later, even if you ever go up management, somewhere else, maybe in the Championship or Premier League, I just feel there'll be something with you, I mean, I look at Kenny, or I look at sort of, Iain Mnuchin, I just feel like that connection with you and the club will come back together? Is that something you look at? I've got a brilliant connection with the club, I always have,

and probably a stronger connection since I left. They've always been unbelievable. Any help or area I could help the club in, I'd always try and do it, if I could.

But I suppose what you want to know is, area I could help the club in, I'd always try and do it if I could.

But I suppose what you want to know is, do you want to manage Liverpool at some point in my life? Of course, that would be a dream, but I think, would I be ready for it right now to take it over a period of time? Probably not. But is there a possibility in the future to be alongside someone? Them elite managers that you're talking about? Would you be an assistant to someone at Liverpool? It depends who it is and how the conversation goes.

Does he need me? Does he think I have an offer?

Yeah.

Would you be able to handle that in terms of... As long as I'm not sub, I'll be fine.

You've been a number one. Someone who, to be fair, likes to be in charge of their own destiny. Could you sit there and not be the person who's making that? I mean, I've done that role. I think, Roy, you've done that role, actually. It's frustrating at times, because ultimately you're not the decision-maker.

Could you handle that?

Yeah, but you have to understand it before you sign up to it. You know what the role is, and it's to support the manager, it's a B that, assistant. I would do it for Liverpool Football Club. If I was asked and they felt I was the right man to do it, I'd be open to it, yeah.

Of course.

Depends on the manager. Depends who the manager is, whatever the role. Again, obviously you went to Wim Meryton, and to be fair, Villa Lepal, but Wim Meryton particularly, if that. You probably need a manager who's not going to... If you've got Stevie Gerrard at Liverpool as your number two, you're probably going to be a bit afraid of it.

You're going to be worried about...

I think certain people might be. The top guy's going to be teaming it up. I remember sitting down with Jürgen Klopp and coming out of a conversation with him and just thinking, and you're just above it all, you're just above the media, you're so thick-skinned and the aura and the charisma that you are. And I was just thinking to myself, I'll just do anything you ask me to do.

Walked out the room, I was 7'8".

And I think what's helped you on, because you've been a manager before, when you've been a manager and become an assistant, I think it helps because you know what the manager is going through. Yeah. It's a big plus. And you can take a lot of pressure away from them and help them. Yeah, of course, because you know what exactly it is. Particularly if it's a manager you respect, you go, yeah, I'll do anything for this guy, whatever he says.

And the top managers don't see he's a threat. They go, no, I know love them. What were you like at home in that period, after a defeat or when you leave Villa?

What were you like at home? How do you change?

Are you asking me or do you want to phone Alex? Nightmare. Miserable. No, no, no. No, just, it's tough. It's tough.

You don't like to fail, you don't like to get things wrong, you don't like to let people down. When I took the Villa job on, I was desperate to help them, they gave me an incredible opportunity. You don't like to be criticised or people to say you're not good enough, it's not a good feeling, so you have to process that yourself

and go, well, how did that happen, Where did it go wrong? What would I do different next time? Blah, blah, blah. And that's what you go through. But initially, for the people that I haven't, being in them big jobs, it's tough. You've had it once.

Do you appreciate your family a bit more when you lose your job a little bit? My wife preferred when we were losing.

Yeah.

If we'd won a few games, you'd be right, that's... A humble pie, you know what I mean?

She'd rather me not do it. She says to me, like, you've had that long a career and you've had a go at it for eight, ten years and stuff,

just don't do it.

Why did you put yourself through it? I missed playing as well, bad, for a period of time. Did you? Yeah, I missed playing. I used to just love the routine and knowing what I was doing. Did you play in the training games with the... I'm playing on Saturday.

Again, one of the legends.

I think it's the World Cup final. Seriously? I'm going to be in the kit and all that, but I can't wait.

Have you been training for it? I always think about injuries in those games.

The pitch is a bit bigger than the paddle though, isn't it? Saying that, some of the partners I've played with... Get some legs around you, it's an experience. Yeah, but I believe Thiago and a few others are playing, so I'm just going to sit and just bark orders.

Talk to us about Saudi Arabia, is that something that you enjoyed? Is it something that you're happy you did?

Yeah, I enjoyed it, it was a different experience, different culture, got the chance to coach with maybe less pressures if you like, get more games in and be around good players. They said to me when I went over, we'll recruit some decent players for you and we'll try and challenge the bigger, top and more powerful teams over there. So it took it on. It was also an opportunity as a family to go away somewhere different together. We've been in Liverpool majority of our lives.

The opportunity came and we took it on. And we were over there for two and a half years. I enjoyed it. But again, like any job, there's frustrations there, there's challenges and stuff. But yeah, I enjoyed it.

Talk to us a little bit, I mean, obviously it's Mo Salah may go there, but talk to us about the standard and what the game is like over there. What are they trying to do? Because obviously all we hear about mainly is the money that's being put on Ronaldo or other players.

Talk to us about what the plan is.

I think there's more to it than that than just the Ronaldo or we've got Ronaldo. It's about their own, it's about their players. So part of the remit was we want you to come here and you've been at Liverpool, you've been around England, you've been around Rangers, you've been around top institutions where we've got no footings in place in terms of academies and what do we need to sort of become an elite team.

So Outworks over there, when I was there there was five, four big teams who PIF owned. You had Aramco in the championship who were gonna come up. And now you've got a few other teams that are privately owned. I think there's six private owned now and then the league owned the rest of the teams

which is one of our teams. So the rest of the league were trying to put brand new academies in place and better facilities and better infrastructure. So by the time the World Cup comes around, they can keep producing young Saudi kids that can improve and you know gauge the

gap if you like to where Saudi are compared to a lot of other nations so it's more about their own so they want Ronaldo around for elite standards and they want people to you know playing with him playing against him and then type of players they believe will bring their own up and they've had that first, oof, Saldi were here and I think it's gone a little bit more quiet and a little bit more reserved at the moment but they're going to come again and I think their idea is they're

targeting now their 15 to 25 year olds during this 10 year period to try and get them to be better players and close the gap.

Is the standard decent of the players? Yeah, what would you compare it to? What league would you compare it to?

Would it be?

Well, I'd say the top four teams when I was there myself, a lot of them would be okay in the Premier League, I'd say lower down. Yeah, the ones that had Benzema and Mitrovic and blah blah blah, they were good teams. Playing in front of 50, 60,000 in some games, and then there's a big drop off and a big gap. That's the reason why I think the teams finish where they do in the league.

I think the financial power from the private ones is different from the rest of the ministry. Difficult to gauge probably the middle and the bottom of that league. But the top I would say probably lower prem top champ I would say. That's higher than I thought maybe.

Because they say MLS is like championship don't they?

No, I think the top four teams would comfortably be better than the MLS teams. Comfortably. We had friendlies against some of the MLS teams and we were very comfortable against them. And we weren't a top team. We wasn't a top team like PIF teams. That's my opinion. So it's a bit better than the outside opinion I would say. You settled over

there but it didn't quite work out for Jordan. What's the sort of lifestyle like over there in terms of how you... It's a bit slower, life's a bit slower. Culture's a little bit more relaxed. I think it's about whether your family can settle is the key to it. So the kids went into fantastic schools, we got incredible support around that. That was one of the big things before I said yes, that we need to make the family happy and secure.

Because if they are, I'll be fine being away from home. Some people, it's just too different. They find it more challenging. They can't settle, they can't get the kids settled in school and if that's the case, then you'd have to make a decision

what's right for you and your individual family.

Do you think if Jordan had kind of stayed out there, it might have affected his international career?

Jordan's situation was a bit different. I think he was fine when he initially came and the family came over. I think they were doing their best to settle in and stuff. He was still a top player, still a top individual. And I needed him because he was the standard setter. He was like having a coach on the pitch for you with his voice and stuff.

But I think it was more his family struggled to settle. And I think also maybe Jordan got more and better offers in terms of size of club after he started the Saudi journey. I think he had Ajax around and Juve and I think some of the Premier Leagues were around and if your family's not settling then them offers land on the table. I think that's the reason why he ended up back. But he was brilliant for me in the six months, absolutely immaculate like he always is.

And would you manage abroad again?

I think it'd be tough right now, because I've just got my kids back into Liverpool, settled in school. Life's good, I'm happy, I'm settled. I don't want to say, bye, I'm going on my own and leaving them right now. So it'd probably be tough right now, but I'd never say never.

Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. This episode is sponsored by Heineken. Welcome to Heineken's Fan of the Match. Heineken is all about celebrating the fan connections made through sport. So we've got a fan in the studio with me, but who do they support? How are you, mate?

I'm good, how are you?

Good to see you.

Right, what's your name, mate? Omar.

Omar, let's go. 60 seconds now.

South. Yes.

Premier League. Yes. Are they at the top? Yes. Are they at the top?

Yes.

It won't be for long.

Holly's young. Arsenal fans hate me at the moment.

I'm just going to keep him going.

Your captain is Oedegaard. Arsenal fans hate me at the moment. I'm just going to keep him going. It's alright.

Your captain is Oedegaard. Arsenal. It's Arsenal. It's Arsenal, of course. Oh mate. What's up with you all? You're a bit paranoid, a bit nervy, a bit anxious.

Nah, not at all. Honestly, we've got the score depth this season. I think…

You're going to do it. And then I've learned my lesson where we've won it.

And we've carried away.

I don't want to jinx it.

You'll do it this year.

Yeah. No, we're definitely doing this year.

What's your greatest experience as an Arsenal fan?

I would say the Tierra when we come back against Leeds, like nothing will beat Wootle scoring. Wootle chaffered. There you go.

We're not going to show this clip. Edit that last bit out. Well done, mate. Good to see you. Hope you win the league.

Cheers.

Well done. Stock up with Heineken or enjoy in your local for match day. Enjoy Heineken responsibly and for the facts about alcohol, visit bedrinkaware.co.uk

Let's shift to your playing career, an absolutely sensational playing career.

The peak of it though could have been the moment that I came to see you in the England squad just before the 2004 tournament where...

What?

What the fuck's he knocking at my door for?

What?

What does he want?

I walked through the little keyhole and doors.

Why did you answer it?

Well...

What was he going... What was happening, Joe?

Was he tapping you up? I have this conversation... Tapping everybody up. Yeah, I have this conversation with Sir Alex Ferguson, which was quite a bizarre one. What year was this?

2004... What a bizarre one. What year was this? 2000 of... You're going to run in. I'm just kidding.

Your legs are going a bit better.

What year was it?

I offered him the captaincy. So obviously this rumour mill started, I think, at sort of around you just before. I don't know if your contract was coming up to an end, was it, around that time or whether... What year was it, Nefseris? End of 2004. Alright.

I think it was March time, wasn't it? I think that international break in March time.

Yeah, and there's rumours around you, I think Chelsea, it was the point where Chelsea were coming in and Siri Faye just says, look, just go and knock on his door. And basically said, I'll go and get him from Liverpool myself and that was his exact word, so I actually went in with that line to Stevie. I mean, how would he even think?

I mean, what a stupid thing to say. You got the most politest, respectful no. It was the politest, dreadful fuck-off I've ever had in my life.

Thanks, Stevie.

Seriously, you didn't even get in the room?

No, I got in the room, which was... Yeah, I got in the room. So I knocked on and said, Stevie, have you got a couple of minutes? I think, I was thinking along the way, he must know I'm a bit lonely in this old stuff.

He wants a game of table tennis, doesn't he?

But you say, wow, at the time I think there was a thing that obviously, it was a point where, I don't know whether you were considering leaving or not, it doesn't really, you know't that great at the time. Things had become frustrating for you. You wanted to be successful, and ultimately, everybody does. Chelsea were massively after you at that time. He thought, I can steal it.

He'd had some ambitious transfers in the past. No, no. He had Eric... This is the guy that brought Wayne Rooney, Eric Cantona, he brought Rio from Leeds. These were quite controversial transfers. He dipped in on Kenny Dalglish at Blackburn over Roy.

Anyone you're mentioning is not even comparable.

He considered it for three seconds.

Three longer than I thought.

Did you ever consider... Was there a point where you ever thought... Because you're absolutely Liverpool through and through, but was there a point where you ever thought... because you're absolutely Liverpool through and through, but was there a point where you ever thought, were you ever tempted by the idea that, I want to leave or I could leave?

Yeah, yeah, and I'm guilty of doing a little bit of that around the Chelsea thing and the Real Madrid rumours, because it does cross your mind when you're not competing for what you set out and what you want to try and achieve, yeah. I'm guilty of doing a bit of flirting and a bit of thinking, if you like. I'd be a liar if I said I wasn't. Especially under Rafa. Rafa was the type of coach,

Jamie will back me up here, where you never ever really thought he wanted you, if you know what I mean. He was quite cold and challenging and provoking. Then when I seen a few people going in for contracts, when I felt like I should have been a priority at the time, it gave me a little bit of doubt, and a little bit of like, maybe he does want...

And as many rumours as there was about me, sort of with these teams and all, there was all other rumours that Rafa would sell and reinvest, and blah, blah, blah, and maybe he's got players in Spain that he wants to replace me with and that's all the stuff that was swirling around in my head at the time. What was the closest, did this happen two years running, so it was 2004 after the Euros

and then there was obviously after the Champions League. It was after the Champions League final, that was the Chelsea one. That's when I had under two years left on my contract and they spoke to three or four other people about contracts before mine after the Champions League final. Who were they speaking to Stevie instead of yourself at the time? Hugo Biscard, Deetan Mahaman, all the midfielders. That got me a little bit like

a bit paranoid. Did you start thinking I'm gonna see these out? No, Steve, did you think, you know what, let me see what happens, I'll see these two years out.

No, that never ever crossed my mind really. It was just like, well look, let's have an honest conversation with Rafa. And I went in and I said to Rafa, look, let's be honest with each other. He went, well, OK, I'm game. Let's have an honest conversation. And he was like, your agent's speaking to Real Madrid. And I said, that's not all this to bed. I said I'll sign a new contract for you right now if you pay me

In and around the ballpark of what people would be getting Who were playing in Champions League files at the time put me in that but I'm not saying make me the highest paid Player in the world, but give me a contract that I deserve and I'll sign it right now in front of you." He put a piece of paper in front of me and said, write down on that how much you want. LAUGHTER

I thought, just say yeah, you want to sign it? Just say yeah, you want to sign it? And it'll go away? It was like a provoction thing. It actually took for me to go to the chairman and said, look, what's going on here? Does this club want me or is he at it here or what? And the chairman made it clear.

Who was the chairman at the time? David Morse? David Morse, the Morse family, yeah. And David Morse was like, no, we want you to stay and blah, blah, blah. But I wasn't getting that love and feel of. You needed someone to give you a number that you could find out what your number is. What's going on? What did you write down? You wouldn't want to know. Absolute telephone numbers, now, money. I didn't tell any time, that's not my job, that's why I don't have an agent.

I said, talk to me agent. I want to stay, I'll stay for as long as you want, just give me the content that I feel like I deserve.

Show me the money, huh?

I remember... Jeremy, go ahead. I remember when I told you... Do you remember going to my wedding? My wedding, I'd booked it.

Probably not. You've got many people under your wing.

No, but I'd booked it. Normally you come back pre-season like 7th July or something, that's when I'd book my wedding, 1st July. Rafa, I'm 24, did you know? I'm getting married two weeks into it. But I remember you coming and you speaking to Struan

and I was thinking, and there's obviously Liverpool fans everywhere in this wedding and I was thinking, oh my God, no, it just felt like that was like...

I thought it was games.

You know what I mean? It wasn't just after the fan, it was even when you come back, wasn't it? It was very close, I've said it on numerous occasions and I'm really honest and clear over it. But I think it was a combination of not feeling the love, if you like, off Bradford and that, like, yeah, you know, just won the Champions League, fine, let's go again. You know, priority, sign there, just didn't get the right feelings at the time,

but also, as well, I was guilty with a bit of flaring and what it was going to be He was like, get him. Get rid of him.

The point where you thought about leaving being at his wedding surrounding.

I'm comfortable in them environments. There was rumours that people were phoning me phone and threatening and that have gone.

I was loading and loading on. Was putting you on the right hand side, I know you played on the right side quite a bit against us a few times, because I remember you being over there, and I remember them crosses coming in on top of me. Is it Rafa that put you on the right side?

Did that cause you a problem?

It did.

Mentally, I found it hard at times. You used to have loads of conversations with Jamie and say, I just don preferred to be in the middle. He changed me a lot actually. He played me right at times, centre at times, and then later on he moved me up a little bit higher

to play in front of Mascherano and Alonso. What he did do is he tamed a lot of my running, wanted more effective running. So I think my game changed a little bit under Rafa and got a little bit more better tactically, the understanding of the game, not running everywhere

and trying to do everything on the pitch. More like, what does the team need for you? What's the team going to benefit more from? But I think when he put me on the right, that's the reason why he didn't want me to play in a two in the middle, because he used to feel like he used to vacate and leave them areas tactically, and it used to leave the team exposed at times.

Tell them about, remember the first time we met Rafa?

Yeah.

So he's... I was buzzing at first thinking, he's just won the league and all that, he's gonna win us the league. Goes in, he just offered me nothing, didn't he? Back to my room thinking, fuck, I'd be hard. He's come to the Hotel and the Euros 2004,

so no-one's ever allowed to, from the club, an agent or a manager. But he'd just been appointed. But it was the fact that there was talk of him going to Chelsea at the end of 2004, like, you've got to allow me to speak to my player. So I'm in there, I'm just made up, this fella doesn't even know who I mean? Fucking hell, this fucking fella from Valencia. Michael Owens there, me and you. This fella from Valencia. So he's come in and I'm thinking he's just going to be telling Stevie how great he is.

He's got all these markers out and he's going, Gerrard... He's just called him a second name. And he's just going, you do too much of this, you need to do this. Chelsea and Gordon. Did you think that coming out of the meeting? I remember coming out of the meeting thinking, this is going to be graft, this is going to be graft.

Did you ever wish you had a manager? I'm not knocking these managers, because they were brilliant managers, but you had a manager who maybe gave you a bit more freedom, a little bit Liverpool at the time, you were very good.

I just wanted a manager who said, I'd play as well now and again. He scored the second goal, I knew I was going to be coming off Is that right? Yeah, at times I just think he's going to bring me off now He doesn't want me getting any more headlines than me

Oh, is he?

Yeah

But listen, there was parts of him that were like...

Of course, that's why...

Parts of him were good as well Tactically and stuff going into certain games where you felt like a major underdog We've got a chance here Even when I think about talking about football now, or even on TV A lot of that is from Rafa and what we did and his brain Tactically, you know it I don't think when you're a player, when you've played well I need the managers to say, I know I've played well

And I knew he was that type of manager Which is fine and I don't need it I love the love, do you? I always remember for myself... I remember after the World Cup in 2006, so we'd had a really long season,

we played the FA Cup, I played the World Cup, we'd started the season really early if you remember. Remember we had to qualify for the World Cup? Because we'd won the Champions League, we had to go in at the beginning of something. Really long season.

Next thing, we don't start well, and I'm not playing well at all. I just feel I've got nothing in my legs. But with Rafferty still telling you what you're doing wrong, which I get. It was just that one moment, I just love him to say to me, you've been biddled in before, it's just the end. You know what I mean? Don't worry about it, you'll be alright in a couple of years. But it was just, it just felt like you were playing for your dad

It was like, yeah, he was low

It was good, yeah

But like not false love, not like blowing smoke type love He was just caring, he was just there and he just made you feel like, he was just warm It was me on me to sort of transition to a different type of coach. And Rafa probably done best for me in terms of improving me tactically and blah, blah, blah. And I played my best years under him. So I owe him a lot, but it was just different. Very, very different from Julier to Benitez in terms of what do you want.

Did it save your legs a bit, like playing under Rafa? Like in terms of your running and stuff?

Maybe. I don't know. I don't know the answer in terms of the stats on it or anything.

Which one did you feel most effective under? Would you say Rafa?

Probably Rafa, yeah. Because I felt in the best years then, you know. I felt good and strong. Even when he moved me up and I had Alonso or Mascherano behind me as well, I felt like proper free. A bit less defending. You know them hard runs back when you're like, oh.

I think that's it. You talk about obviously missing out on the league and you come even closer obviously with Brendan, but I think that team then, and no one speaks about it because we didn't win anything. The best team we played in for Liverpool didn't win a trophy, really. It was Mascherano, Alonso, Juve, Torres up front. But at that stage, we were probably in the top four or five teams in Europe, that team.

But the problem was the other teams were in England. Remember, everyone was getting to the semi-finals.

You finished second, I think, that year.

That year, but even the year before, I think there was three, I think for two or three years, there was three English teams in the semi-finals of the Champions League, and the other one was always AC Milan. Or was that AC Milan at the time? Yeah. And it was just like the timing of it,

it was probably the best version of Chelsea. Do you know what I mean? It always felt like we were chasing or trying to close a gap rather than direct competitors.

Was that investment, you think, in terms of... At the time, Liverpool weren't splashing massive money, were they? But that was the closest I ever... I think I've said this to you before, that was the moment I thought you got closest to us. When I think it was Alonso left, I felt like that was a massive step back.

You brought in the lad from Italy, didn't you?

Aquilani. That was heartbreaking as well, and also the Torres one as well. You think to yourself, we've put so much in to try and close this. It felt like we were getting closer, and then you take one of them big signings out.

It's not a good message to send.

It can set you back a long time, especially when you've played with them and you think, dear, the people like them win games for you Listen, we've both got unbelievable respect for Rafa and he took your game, you said another level took mine to a completely different level in terms of being centre-back, Champions League final I was just happy to be a Liverpool player before, play every week, really

But I always look back at the Alonso one. So it goes back 12 months before. So Alonso...

It got a bit messy, didn't it?

Yeah, it got a bit messy. So Alonso, I think, wanted to leave at that stage. He wasn't playing as much. Yeah, Rafa was trying to bring Gareth Barry in. It was almost going to be a bit of a swap. Whatever, it doesn't happen. season we almost win the league we are close it feels like a great team but the

reason I sort of I look at Rafferty I think it was almost like he wanted to win this fight with Alonso about staying or going and I've just thought okay you've had that fight here we've now had an amazing season, Alonso's been fantastic it's a bit like you've won you've won the fight because the player is playing amazing sign a new contract it contract, move this team forward And then it got to the summit, it was almost like

Right, we're going to carry on this fight again Do you understand what I mean? And it was like, now don't get me wrong, Remy did start to come off his shabby He's not gone, he signed a contract I'll just say he's not gone, we're that close yet And it was almost like a personal thing Because Rafa was really good and clever

He always had the fans on side But he almost lost Alonso had almost won the battle

I don't know what you felt about it

He was such a big player for us How he played as well

I just feel it could have been sorted between the two

When you played, everyone sees him as a good player on the outside But when you're with him and on the pitch with him He was top, he was top.

You talked about being assistant manager before, I'm just connecting dots here. If Xabi Alonso came to Liverpool, which has been mooted...

Just see the headline now, Nick.

You'd had one slot to get the sack.

Xabi Alonso, the second.

How are you going to fall for it?

I thought you brought me in. LAUGHTER I never had it in my mind and I never asked you during the section because I don't think Anna Slott should get the sack, but I just thought that would be a sweet little partnership, wouldn't it, Alonso and Gerrard?

I want to really, really answer this directly. I want Slott to get the opportunity to fix...

Absolutely. Let's move on to Stevie.

What if? You want Gerrard Will slot in, don't you?

That's what you want.

Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Take us to the point whereby, you've obviously stayed at Liverpool, how big a mistake would that, I mean you said you'd flirted with the idea of thinking about it, but how big a mistake would that be? You said you'd flirted with the idea of thinking about a nuggle, but how big a mistake would that have been if you'd followed through?

When you see what's happened to other players? I think if you're taking into consideration my family situation, where I live, where I'm from, my career throughout Liverpool, the relationship I've still got now, I mean... They've been unbelievable to me. They do little things now where I think, oh, you're even thinking about me now?

Little tiny things like they invite Leo to a thingy-o-ody. They just go above and beyond to continue the relationship, so 100% the answer would be yeah, I'd regret it for the rest of my life. And it came down to a really important conversation. My head was just like a box of frogs. I didn't know whether Rafa wanted me or not.

I didn't know what was going to happen. It was getting closer and closer to the, are you going to jump here or what? I went to see my dad and my brother, who are two Liverpool fans and they just completely just took all the external out of it and just said,

if you go and win two, three Premier Leagues or a European Cup with Chelsea or Inter Milan or Real Madrid, will it be good now? And yeah, of course it'd be good because you've won. They said, but will it be good or better than if you win one more trophy with Liverpool? And I said, no, it'd be better if I feel better to do it

with Liverpool.

They said, well, just make it all go away. And it all go away, and it all went away. But it was that conversation, just taking away all the noise and the phone calls and the agents and the people at Liverpool and the people at Chelsea and the Mourinho calls, just taking it all away and going, what's most important for you? Is it your family? Is it the city? Is it Liverpool Football Club?

Or is it the next, like, just trying to chase a bit of success? And it was the stay. So yeah, I think I made the right decision in terms of that connection.

But it's not just any city, is it, either? I mean, it's a city that, to be fair, loyalty would be... It would be treachery, wouldn't it, if you took over?

No, listen, they got me there. It's that Liverpool people got me there.

Yes, I mean...

You know what I mean?

So you have to remember that You have to remember what's gone before In some ways it would have been treachery you leaving them at a point whereby I'd say so yeah, I think a lot of people would have frowned upon it I might have won more trophies, would have guaranteed to get more money That's nice for everyone of course it is But more important is the feel and the connection of your own people And it just, with all the madness that was going on, it was my dad and my brother that just had to take all the layers away

and go, what's really important to you deep down, what is it? And that was the decision.

And it was better for them as well, tickets and...

LAUGHTER

It is, isn't it?

You've never been to Chelsea, haven't you?

You've never been to them Avanti teams, haven't you?

LAUGHTER Exactly, delays. You mentioned the Chelsea game before, and I wasn't going to talk about it because I think it's irrelevant, but you said that you were getting... I don't know how many exact phrases you used, but you said there was all loads of stuff going on around that and after that. What was that?

It was just tough moments, tough moments even now. Obviously, think about it, well less now than at the time, because at the time it's fresh and raw and stuff like that but it just felt so close that I was just going to finish the career I felt like I, looking back now, I had the cake, built the cake the cake's lovely but I just didn't have the last part of it and that's what I've got to live with

and I just have them little moments and flashbacks and it just still kills me I remember you phoning, we were doing it... obviously we were Sky, we were in the meeting, Monday Night Football, obviously he's on the game and you phone me in the meeting.

And... did you go away for a couple of days?

That when I said blame everyone else except me?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Should never give me the pass, it was a tackle.

But I think, did you go away for a couple of days? I just remember, I think I might have went out the way Yeah I think I did, yeah You know what, you know that game, I'd finished the year before And obviously Liverpool going for the league, I think Koro Tori come in But it was a Liverpool team that I can see scored lots of goals, that was the team The front, I mean I was probably playing a bit more deeper in like a proper,

just connecting the team a little bit more. Rather than, because I didn't really have the legs to do it anymore, but the people in front of me, we were on fire. And our identity was just, we were going to beat people because of the firepower. So some games you knew you were going to concede a few. But we knew with Steele and Suarez, storage was...

When you were with him close up, I mean...

Wow.

The reason I mentioned it is because... Top player. When I retired, people would say to me, you should have stayed here, you could have... Absolute rubbish that I could have done anything to help Liverpool But the reason I make the point about the Chelsea game

The one I always look at and think I'd love to have been on the pitch just in that second half Because I think we lost our heads And just not to play I wasn't good enough I couldn't run, I was 35

But I always think of that second half and thinking Just talking to people Yeah, we panicked a bit, I was panicking But I'd experienced second halves, trying to get a goal at the Kop And that's what I look at, I'd love to have been on that pitch for 45 minutes Trying to take a bit of emotion away You know what I mean? I could probably talk to you

And that's where I could have maybe done something for 45 minutes for the rest of the season Because I just look at that. The worst manager for that to happen in that game as well was him, because he got more... He was doing things to delay. You could see he'd said,

when the ball's off the pitch, it stays off the pitch. Go down, by fouls, and you could feel it all. And I think the team was getting, in the emotion at the time, was getting more panicky rather than, okay, we've still got time, rather than going the other way. So, obviously, once you left that team, we did, in the back line, there was less voice, less organisation, less demand to stay in structure and stuff like that, for sure, yeah.

What was your greatest moment, Stevie, of the Champions League final, but your greatest individual moment with Liverpool?

I don't know. The best night, obviously, the Champions League final, because even in that final, you look at the teams, never really thought it was possible until it was. Even after we got the three goals back, it was just basketball end-to-end. It was crazy, even the pens,

you see the people who are walk up to take their pens, you think, this is still, it's not done yet, you know what I mean? So to get that, that was obviously the best moment of my career, but I think performance was, the FA Cup final was one where I felt like it just, you know, it was like autopilot type performance.

But look, I mean, when I think about it now, at this age, and I go back and think, yeah, I didn't get the Prem that I craved and I still crave it today, I have to accept that, but what a dream, what a story to play for your team and go through that journey with your team, it was unbelievable. Best days of my life.

Who was the best player you ever played with at Liverpool?

Luis Suarez. He was just different, he was just different, honestly.

It's OK.

LAUGHTER

I love that time you had with Torres as well.

Yeah, listen, I don't like comparing players in different positions and stuff, and who's the best player and blah, blah. If you're talking about a centre-forward, you went onto a pitch or you're in a dressing room where you're thinking if he plays well today we're going to win. Suarez was there, Torres had a period where he'd be close to that I would say. But Suarez was just different, even in training he was just like a big strong lump, he was an animal, he was never injured.

That goal he scored against Newcastle, the one that came over, I keep saying people just...

He was just a winner and a fighter and a proper...

He was proper.

Nice.

He said last week that Mo Salah was the sixth best Liverpool player that he'd seen, and he put obviously Kenan Aghilesh, Graham Soonus, who else? You. Steve G.

You were number one.

Who else did you have in front?

John Barnes.

Johnny Barnes.

John Barnes. John Barnes. Johnny Barnes. John Barnes. Ian Rush. Ian Rush.

Would you put Mo Salah at sixth?

Look, I think we all have recency bias, don't you? Where we've seen Mo Salah in the last eight years and you have recency bias and you want to put him alongside the Kennys and blah, blah, blah. But I think in time when all the dust settles, in the top five for sure. I didn't see much of Dagleish because I was too young. I seen the back end of Rush.

My hero was Johnny Barnes growing up. 89, I was nine, 10, just starting to get into football and glued to the telly. So when you'd appreciate your Barnes's and your Rush's and stuff, you'd probably know more about Kenny,

you'd know more about Kenny than me because of age. You never ever want to be disrespectful to people that have played generations before that you don't really know too much about, because there's a lot more. There's a lot more Roger Hunt, Al Nansons and players like that. So if you're in the conversation to be in Liverpool's top five players,

you've rang the bell. Did you have Hanton in you? Do you want to do the rest of my top ten? Yeah, Hanton. Right, let's start at number 10. 10. Ian Callaghan. Oh, yes. Most appearances for the club. Started in the second division and won the European Cup, I think, in his last game, 1978.

Number nine. Oh, God. Kevin Keegan. I went for Kevin Keegan. He's not spoken about as much as probably he should about Liverpool because Kenny comes after him.

Yeah.

What a plug this is for LFCTV It went for Kevin Keegan, his last game for Liverpool was in the European Cup and he was man of the match

How many games did he play for Liverpool? Did he play hundreds? He didn't play hundreds, did he? Did he play hundreds? Yeah, I think Keegan did

I think Keegan comes in about 71, 72?

Leaves in 77

Right, OK

Last game, man of the match, European Cup final He was number 9 Number 8 was Virgil van Dijk Number 7 was Alan Hansen You had to put a defender in there Yeah, a couple of defenders in there Who did you go for? Goalie? No, I didn't put a goalie in

They don't need a goalkeeper

Goalies shouldn't be in the top 10 of all time

And then the 6 Stevie, in terms of position

I know, I was wondering

Well done If you were playing football now, would you be a centre midfield player in a 2? Would you be a central midfield player in a 3, to the right of a 3?

Would you be a wide of a 4 or would you be a number 10?

Definitely not wide of a 4

No, we're good

You haven't been listening have you?

Or would you be a number 10 which is sort of playing a 4? Where would you be putting this game now? I'd like to play in a 3 with the freedom to get into the box. In that right with midfield 3? It doesn't matter right or left really. As long as I've got the freedom to join in and try and get around some of the excitement, I would have loved that, yeah.

You're very lucky he didn't play right back. He did play right England. I played for England. We've got Steven Gerrard who played one game at Rite back in his life. In the Champions League final. When I made my debut for England I had number 2 on didn't I? He had number 2 on at Rite. I thought, oh he's getting me into midfield. All of a sudden I've lost 85 England points. You know the point you're making there about playing different positions and you're still saying you want to play centre midfield,

correct me if I'm wrong, but the two years you were player of the year in England, I think you were a number 10 and right midfield. Possibly, yeah.

You'd know better than me.

I'll be really honest with you.

In 2006 and 2009.

Yeah, 2009 I was playing as a 10.

And in 2006 you were right midfield. There are very few managers who, to be fair, I think made special arrangements for a certain player, but you were, to be fair, one of them. And the big fear that we always had wasn't necessarily that you were going to be the number 10 spot and get on the turn. We felt that was easier to deal with,

because it was when you play from a central position and then just drifted into that right channel, like De Bruyne, and I think Beck, Trent Alexander-Arnold. I'd put the four of you in a similar sort of what would be category.

Your balls from that sort of right channel were...

LAUGHTER

Here we go.

Best balls.

He knobbed. LAUGHTER

So childish.

So childish.

It's brilliant.

The mature ones over here.

Your crosses from that round.

I just pitched them's over here. That's a good job. Your cross is from that round. I just pitch them in the air.

If you remember, we actually put Anderson, or we didn't, the manager put Anderson

trying to stop me, yeah?

man marking you almost. And he used to say, even if the ball goes past that position, because the worst thing that could happen, Anderson would go back to help, say, for instance will get played back to you and he couldn't get near enough to you for it to get played in. So he would actually say man marking when the ball's on that right hand side. If the right back goes past, like Steve Finnan is an example, forget him, let him cross it, let him go one on one and just don't let him roll it back towards you. That's

very rare. So part of that would be for us to try and get in them crossing positions that are really difficult to defend if you can get them obviously around the two centre-halves and when we were playing you I was always sat in at the back post.

No, I'm not!

LAUGHTER When you cross an early and the defenders are not set or in possession they're obviously horrible crosses to defend against. It was part of our game plan against you but I remember it being a lot more difficult and Fergie or whoever it was, the coach around him, you did feel like that. Even when it was Scolzi or Rui,

you felt like the press was coming earlier than it probably would against normal teams. So it did feel like it.

Is the box-to-box midfielder a bit of a dying breed now, would you say?

Yeah, he's more control now on passing and staying in position and all that type of stuff. I don't think it's dying, I don't see it as a dying breed. Look at Declan Rice, now he's doing a bit more. I love watching midfielders that do a bit of everything. I love watching them types.

Is he one of your favourites to watch now, Declan Rice?

It'll follow him from an England perspective. I like watching him and Jude to be honest. It's just whether we can get the right person alongside them for them to go and cause a bit of damage going forward.

You like a little Anderson? I do like him, yeah.

You like him?

They plucked him.

Stick to Football is brought to you by Arm Clothing. Super 6 has another £250,000 jackpot. This weekend, the EFL and FA Cup take centre stage, starting at 3pm on Good Friday. It's completely free to play, just predict six scores this weekend and the money could be yours. Don't forget to enter the Stick to Football Mini League using the code S6-STF. S6-STF. S6-STF.

18 plus T&Cs apply.

Last week's scores, Gary and Jamie, four.

Oh no.

Who were you with?

You got right with that.

Four, you are on a 105.

Oh no. We're getting overtaken.

I feel like we're like City, you know. We messed up. Roy, with Arsenal. You are on a 105th place. Oh no, we get anything but they're overtaking us.

I feel like we're like City, you know.

Roy, Julian.

Five.

Oh no.

That's all your five for the Arsenal score.

What was it for?

And six.

Yes, come on!

We've actually won the whole round.

Last week you got Arsenal, Everton.

You got that too. We messed up in Villa. I forgot Villa were playing in Europe on a tour de Lille. Thank you. Yeah, but you said that never matters. The fly private.

Travelling away from... Jamie's back, bro.

He's back. Having Moyesy back.

You're home for one of these.

Moyesy was the man, wasn't he?

Moyesy's great.

Off you go.

Very good. Right. West Brom vs Wrexham. Is that Good Friday? It is. Great Friday, 3 o'clock. Are they all FA Cup? Some of them are, some of them aren't.

Which ones are they?

It scores after 90 minutes, Ben.

Is the top one an FA Cup game?

This one.

Yes, it is.

Is that the championship? Oh, it's championship, is it that? It's championship.

The top one's championship. I don't really follow football outside the Premier League. LAUGHTER Just cos you go to Salford. Who's goal was it first?

We go 1-1.

Salford are doing great.

West Brom have changed the manager, haven't they?

Salford are doing really good. Wrexham have gone for promotion.

1-1.

1-1, yeah.

Love that.

Wrexham in the playoffs. Wrexham are doing well, I think. And this is everything that Wrexham need. 2-1 Wrexham. 2-1 Wrexham, come on.

Come on, Wrexham.

That's the first one with all...

Oxford Hull. Ooh, 3 o'clock.

What's that?

Hull of flying. I'm gonna be honest, I haven't got a clue. It's Geldart and Kyle Joseph, the two strikers from Bulk. They were Wigan players and when Wigan went into administration, everyone took all the players. They're flying with those two. And they've got a centre-back from Wigan called Charlie Hughes, a great centre-back as well.

And we've got Oxford fighting for their lives.

Right, you lead on this.

I'm hole winning.

2-1 hole. Yeah. Remember when I said you love a 2-1? We'll go 2-0 hole. Charlie Hughes will keep a clean sheet. Coventry vs Derby. Brandon Thompson

sent an e-message and said they watch sticks football in the changing rooms at Coventry.

They do? They do, yeah. They love it. Well, hi guys. Enjoy your London. I love you. One of the worst things I ever did was put a buyout clause, an agree a buyout clause with Brandon Thomas Asante.

How much was?

It wasn't enough. But it meant the kid went to... He's a brilliant player, a brilliant lad, great family. You helped him with his... He went to West Bron, he's then gone to Coventry, he's a fantastic player.

We should get him on.

I wish the buy-out was a little bit more. Oh, do we have a sell-on, actually? There you go.

Gary, would you come on Stick to Football?

He was subbed for Sol for a few times, wasn't a regular. He wasn't a regular. He's a Coventry winner. I shouldn't have said that.

He's going to play here and get all the time on him.

He's got to.

Two-on, two-on.

Is he still on the bench?

Coventry.

No, Brandon.

No, he what?

We'd have gone up that season if we'd kept him.

Yeah, well, get him on the bench. One-one. Yes, good one. Just so that one can get some points.

Man City, Liverpool.

We're going to chat some points.

This is a big one.

I think City, I think, on a roll. It's got to be City.

You'd think City, wouldn't you? I know. You know one of the worst performances I've seen in the last... Liverpool at Forest. I know I've gone back about six, seven, eight weeks. Do you know, Roy, your statement about Liverpool saying they're the worst champions I've seen actually isn't... Look, it's a harsh statement.

I didn't say they're bad champions.

Yeah, bad champions. It's not looking like a bad statement.

Thanks, Gary.

No, you said it earlier. You said it like three months in.

I hope so, dude. That's like everybody else. It's called predicting.

That's what he does, he does it early.

Who's first?

I think City win 3-1.

It's our goal, though, isn't it?

Oh, it's your goal, sorry.

No.

2-1.

We'll go 3-1.

Another 2-1.

2-1 City?

Yeah, we'll go and do it.

3-1.

We're going to get a target of that.

Oh, Chelsea 4-0 Vail, this is our one. Liam, we're on. Chelsea 3-0.

Wow.

No, we give them 4-0.

4-0 Chelsea.

4-0, yeah.

Really?

It's a tough game this one, Southampton v Ryan. Southampton v Arsenal. Oh, it's a tough one.

Once the attitude's in the atmosphere...

I should get my own because I have family ties with this.

I think they'll... Because they're doing well on Southampton, I'm going to go... We'll beat them 2-1, I think.

2-3-1.

Southampton are flying.

Yeah, they're doing well.

2-one. You want two-one? No, I wouldn't give him a four. Two-nil? Three-one.

No, no, go on.

Two-nil, we give Arsenal two-nil. Two-nil, two-nil, Arsenal, yeah.

I would have gone one-one.

Yeah, we'll go three-nil. Arsenal three-nil. by arm clothing. Let's talk about England, Stevie. How do you feel about your England career? I mean, obviously you played exactly the same time as me nearly in terms of mirroring it a little bit later, but how do you feel about your England career now

when you look back? Yeah, a bit frustrated, missed opportunities, loved representing England, loved playing the games, and loved being in the training, you know, competing against all the players to see where I was at. I loved all that side, but I hated the hotels.

Hated them. The camps. Yeah, I mean, Michael and Robbie and Maka early on used to get into some of the squads, so we had a little bit of a Liverpool group, but it was very clicky early on.

It was like Man United table, Arsenal table, Liverpool table. So I was very young and just a little bit in awe of everyone back then. Shearer's there and Tony Adams' and what have you. So I was a little bit nervous around that group because I was still very young. And then as I moved on and become obviously, I think less Liverpool players were getting into the squad. I think Robbie and Maka weren't getting into squads then. So I didn't ever feel like it was a team winning. I just felt like it was a

group of individuals really. I'm not someone who can watch the telly or films or box sets really so I get bored a lot in the rooms. I want to get out of the room and just felt like there was a lot of room time with England and a lot of dead time and I struggled with it a little bit. But I used to love playing and the training side of it and the competing side of it. But yeah, missed opportunities and frustration because the quality of the players,

I think we should have done a lot better. We collectively should have done more to come together and be a better team and a better group and better mates to give us a better chance, but I felt like everyone going to England just wanted to do well themselves, as long as I'm in the team, as long as I get a goal or... I think it was a bit of ego. Did you still feel you were up against rivals? Yeah, definitely. Because we were playing Chelsea every five minutes,

and going to war with them on the pitch in full now, and arguing with JT, and Lampard not an interesting lady, having cake and custard with them.

It's hard, isn't it?

It's different, different dynamics, isn't it? Different dynamics.

I think club rivalry definitely bled into the England squad, because back round that time...

That's what Garret's done, I think, recently, which has took it to the next level. As an ex-player I think if we'd have done that, I think it might have given us a better chance. But I did feel even some of the managers, it was about just let's pick the best names and put them in and hope it works a little bit.

Was there a last time back then? Obviously there's international breaks. Now there was a moment of sometimes you get down on Sunday night and you're playing Wednesday, wouldn't you?

You have two sessions together maybe, you know. It creates some spirits, it's difficult. Yeah, it is, but... Gareth's done it better than what it's been before. So, yeah, but as I say, in terms of how I played for England, performances and stuff, maybe not at the level I had done with Liverpool. I'm not trying to shift blame or point fingers or anything, because I'm my own worst critic when I don't play well or don't hit my level.

I fucking know myself. But you said before, I'm not going to ask the age-old question, the most boring question in football is the one around how do you get Scholes, Gerrard and Lampard, who's the best, but not who's the best, how do you get them into the same team? And if you remember in

2004, Scholes, he ends up and does the dirty thing and stuff. He did try, try it all. I think it must have been a case of a manager just being big enough to pick the right players, the right team, the right system and tactics and go from there. But it just felt like I'd get put out on the left or Scholesy'd get put out on the left and it didn't really...

I'd have loved to see Glenn Odo with that. I'd love to see Glenn Odo with that. You think he would have fixed it? Oh gosh. Everything that happened, Glenn Odo with that bunch of guys, geez.

I also think as well, like when the media get old or there's an opinion, it sticks. Because there was times when we won and won comfortable and we played alright in certain games, Everyone wanted this debate and this thing that we can't play together. You know, and I suppose once that's in the media, it's going to stick.

Did you feel like I felt that it was, you're a Liverpool player first and an England player second, whereas I think quite a lot of some players play, say for instance, maybe, I think Tottenham, West Ham, clubs maybe in London sometimes, they feel like an England player and their club is equal maybe. But I think definitely for me, and certainly I don't know for you,

Liverpool, Manchester United were first, they were our priority, and Liverpool was almost...

I love playing for my country, but it was a bonus almost. Yeah, I'm the same, I'm definitely more in... Well, 100 per cent I'm in that camp here. Liverpool was the bread and butter priority. My dad used to always say that to me. Liverpool's the club. If you get picked for England, great.

You want to be in the England team, you want to go and obviously play and represent England. And as I say, I loved playing for England. I loved the training and stuff. But Liverpool was always a priority. Do you think that's a no-tout thing? Sometimes you realise, let's use some examples, like Rio or Joe Cole or Frank,

when you asked them when they were kids, what do you want to do, they'd say, play for England. For me it was being like, win the FA Cup or win the league. You know as a young kid, you're hoping to make it. The dream is never to play for England really.

I don't know if it was like a... not just being a player, even as a kid, as a fan. Yeah, but being brought up in Liverpool, and Liverpool being as great as they were, if you're brought up in Liverpool and you're growing up, the first thing you want is Liverpool.

What was you like, Rayty?

When I was younger, I always wanted to play for England. I think it's because even when we were younger, watching Keegan and watching them play for England, England not qualifying for the World Cup. I always wanted to play for England.

What about you, Ray?

My mindset would have been to try and get England to play for a team because then you'd get the rewards on the back of that. Yeah, I'd say like a bonus. You get the rewards, obviously the whole idea, play well for your club. You get selected for your country.

What about in the ladies' games?

Yeah, England was priority. Throughout my club, every decision was to prioritise playing for England. But that might be the difference in...

When I look at my situation as well, because I wasn't involved in that, I had no affinity with any clubs. You're Liverpool when you're younger, you're younger with...

And there's so many clubs in London as well.

Exactly, so many clubs. So it was always England was the one for me.

There are exceptions, but Liverpool players haven't had a great relationship maybe with England. If you look over the last 50, 60 years, I mean, obviously there are exceptions to that, what I'm just saying, but it feels to me like, you know, John Barnes had a difficult relationship, Trent Alexander had obviously a difficult relationship. Players, you know what I mean, in terms of sort of just that, you know, the great teams that Liverpool have had. I mean, you've played obviously over 100 times, Stevie, so it's not quite the same, but is it harder

to come from Liverpool and, I think,

be in England's sort of what will be? Well, when you think of Michael Owen, it was almost, he was almost respected by Liverpool fans rather than loved. And I think a lot of that was because it almost felt like he became country's player

I think that probably plays into a little bit of the thing that he was never really loved by Liverpool supporters Liverpool is that city and is that club of us against the world We're Scouse, we're not England, you know that type of mentality

Would Wayne be on that? Wayne Rooney, would Wayne have been?

Do you think he was...? Where would Wayne have been? I think certain players become that big for England, they always become England players. Gary Lineker, Wayne Fields... Wayne would have been after Michael, the next hope. We're going to build it around Wayne. Wayne was phenomenal for England in certain games. Wayne would be the best England player.

His mindset when he was younger, like you, Liverpool, would everything have been his priority above England.

Stole a lot away. Stole that away. It's the rewards of it, yeah. Stole that Everton out of him.

When I went to knock on his door, he opened the door.

LAUGHTER

By the way, I was listening to you before saying you were lonely and you should have let me in a bit more, shouldn't you?

LAUGHTER

I know he was lonely.

Just wean out with loads of that. We're going to listen to Wazza for the night. Right, we're going to finish with a game of Mr and Mrs, you two. So who knows more about each other between Stevie and Cara?

First goal was against, so who was Stevie's first goal against?

Ooh!

Kop and header for him. Kop and header, who was that? That was Will.

Will, eh? Yeah.

Was your chef for Wednesday? Yeah. Yeah, was your Sheffield Wednesday? At home, at the Anfield Road end, when you were on that run past Des Walker? He never beat Des Walker.

He never beat Des, he's a young, fitty man.

Sheffield Wednesday, 5th. Who did he score, get the head or did you say that? Villa. Villa.

I thought he was Shearer. Basic celebration, there it is, Shearer.

I thought you were going to say an OG. Celebration, celebration, celebration. You're gonna say no, Jamie. So, Stevie, yours was 5th December 1999. Cary, yours was 18th of January...

1997.

1997. I was at the game in the Kop.

This whole memory is mental.

This memory's mad. First time captain of the club. Bit tougher.

That's really tough.

Yours, I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know, Jamie. I'm not 100% certain. Is it mine or your European game? Mine was. No, I tell you what, I know what mine is.

I know what mine is.

I know. You can't give yours, because he's got to get his.

I didn't know mine, so I'm trying to get mine first. I'm trying to get his. I'll give you a clue, mine was the European game as well Was it? Was it a away game? It was our home It must have been UEFA Cup, it wasn't Champions League It was UEFA Cup, yeah Not a recognised team either way

Was it a 2004?

3?

3, it would have been, yeah

I haven't got a clue

I haven't got a clue Mine was Man City at home Was it Man City at home?

You won 3-2.

Man City at home, the 9th of September 2000.

3-2, we won.

Stevie, when was yours?

Do you know the team?

No.

European game?

Stevie's. Oh.

It was 15th of October 2003.

First England cap. Oh, Jesus. I don't know them. It was 15th October 2003. You answered that ages ago.

First England cap.

Oh, Jesus.

When was your first England cap? Oh, so I'm asking...

I remember yours.

I think...

Well, it's an end of the season. I've just given him a clue, haven't I, before? Oh, er...

Er...

I think you wear a red kit.

Yeah.

Is it a South American team? He definitely knows it.

No, I do. Is it a South American team?

I love how he dresses him.

No.

No. You're a guy, mate. It's...

Is it Shevchenko's team?

Yeah, Ukraine.

Correct.

When was Cara's first England hat?

I've got a clue.

I've got a clue. So rememberable, aren't I? So honestly. Hungry Away. 28th of April, 1999.

Hungry Away.

Yeah.

First car.

You should know this from him.

How would you know that? That's funny.

He had a Lexus. I remember that car. Cass's Lexus, Jesus.

What colour jeans was he wearing?

LAUGHTER Players back then.

Yours was...?

My first car was a Honda Concierge.

Yeah, Honda.

LAUGHTER

I love it.

I can still remember it now, yeah.

Final question.

You know what I always remember when we went into Bayern?

Your Honda?

Yeah, I was with my dad when he was 17.

Cash. The fella said, how much have you got to spend?

He said, what the fuck's it got to do with you?

LAUGHTER How much have you got to spend? Did you hear what I said? How much have you got to spend?

I don't know.

You don't fucking care.

Birthday.

When is each other's birthday?

Oh, God.

Yours is... January is... I'm sure the exact date might be... Yours is the 30th of... Is that the number right?

Yeah.

June? No.

July?

No. May? Yeah.

30th of May.

Karuz's is January, I'm not sure the exact date. 19th, Isabel, or... No?

No. 28th of January.

Eve?

Yeah. Yeah.

Last question, what was the best advice you've ever received, Steve? We ask this at the end. To see if someone comes up with a pearler.

Probably from my wife and my brother when I sat down with them and they said, look, what's going to be more important for you here? Take everything away, stay at Liverpool. That was the advice. I'll see you guys. Not mine, that'll walk you back down these lines. No, no, no. Stevie, thank you so much for coming on.

Pleasure, great to be here.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. 🎵