Has a Labour leadership contest already begun? | The News Agents

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We're basically saying, hold your nerve.We know what's going to happen.

I don't think it was that smart of maybe number 10 friends of Keir Starmer to say, oh, where's he's bottling it?He hasn't got what it takes.He's going to chicken out.He's going to do a runner.He ain't going to go through with it.

He is haunted by the idea.He's always wanted to be prime minister from when he was a young man.And he is haunted by the idea that this is his David Miliband moment.The crown is within his grasp, that he only needs the courage to pluck up the will and the courage to grasp it, and it will be his.

Just on Wes Treating, is he still the Health Secretary?Can we just confirm that?

Again, I don't know.I'm in your studio answering your questions, Sarah.That is my question.

Well, why don't you ask him?OK, but are you presuming he is?

As I said, I don't know.I mean, I read a lot of speculation.

I mean, if I asked you if Yvette Cooper was the Foreign Secretary, you'd say yes.

Yeah, but I mean, this is not a terribly productive use of our time.

It sounds like one of those questions a doctor asks when they're looking for early onset dementia.Do you know who the Prime Minister is?This occasion, it's the Northern Ireland Secretary answering a question about whether the Health Secretary is still the Health Secretary on the BBC this lunchtime.

Why would that question be so pertinent if the Health Secretary wasn't thinking about quitting his job?What does all this mean for Keir Starmer's position, just as the King's speech is taking place?Welcome to The News Agents.

The News Agents.

It's Jon.It's Maitlis.It's Lewis.And we are in a very unusual position that everyone expects now.Wes Streeting, the health secretary, this question that has haunted British politics this week.Is there going to be a challenge against Keir Starmer?

And it seems that Wes Streeting, the health secretary, has told allies that he is preparing to resign and trigger a leadership contest against Keir Starmer as soon as tomorrow.Hence the confusion of Hilary Benn and others as to whether West Streeting, as of this afternoon, is even still in his job.Something that Downing Street shortly afterwards did clarify by saying that Keir Starmer, after that 16 minute meeting this morning in Downing Street between the two men, Downing Street saying they have full confidence or the Prime Minister has full confidence in West Streeting and all of his cabinet ministers.This all taking place, as Emily said, bizarrely, extraordinarily against the backdrop of the state opening of Parliament where Westminster is in its finest ermine and silliest frocks, having to pretend as if none of this is happening as the King reads out a speech including 35 bills of things that this government under this Prime Minister intends to do while simultaneously not knowing for sure whether this Prime Minister is going to be in Downing Street at the end of the week and the big question on everyone's lips in Parliament is does West Streeting have the numbers, the 80 MPs he needs to resign and mount that challenge against Starmer?

Let's not forget that the positioning of the King's speech which is at the behest of the Prime Minister really spoke to his nervousness about what could happen this week.It was always meant to be a firewall, essentially, to stop any huge political shenanigans from kicking off after those May elections.And to some extent, it'sworked because today things are just about holding.What does that mean?Well it means basically that nobody is swearing at the funeral, right?

It's about as simple as that.When I was messaging people who were part of that 80 list who'd added their voices, their names to the critique of Keir Starmer, I I did start asking whether they had been surprised that more hadn't happened yesterday, particularly if they were supporters of Wes Streeting.Had they expected Wes to go over the top yesterday?And the messages I was getting back were basically saying, hold your nerve.We know what's going to happen.We know it wasn't going to be today.

And the sense, every indication has been, we think there is more to come.this is a pause, this is a moment's silence, but tomorrow it all kicks off again.And I wonder whether actually against the backdrop of the King's speech, which I think a lot of people both outside the party, outside government and within feel was quite a timid response to those election results.It was more incrementalism.It wasn't full throated.It wasn't a kind of rip up everything and give the people something that they've been dying for, I think in a way it will embolden others to say, OK, that was the last chance.

If that's basically what the legislative agenda looks like for the next year, then yeah, maybe I'm out of here.

I think it was the most perfect split screen moment today, that you have the King's carriage coming down Whitehall and the horse guards and everything else running perfectly to time and what it says is that Britain is this place of solidity, tradition, stability, consistency and the reality of the government is that it's anything but.that.It is febrile, it is uncertain, anything could happen in the next five minutes, and it might well in the next five minutes while we're sitting here recording.There was a moment this morning where people were starting to say, oh, well, he's over the worst of it.The stability is returning.There was almost a two hour window where people thought, oh, well, Starmer's in the clear now.

This is an ongoing problem that is not resolved.And I don't think it was that smart.Maybe number 10 friends of Keir Starmer to say.Oh Where's he's bottling it?He hasn't got what it takes.He's gonna chicken out.

He's gonna do a runner He ain't gonna go through with it.And what we've since heard is that oh, yes he is actually and he may well have the numbers and he is going to force a contest which puts Starmie in the position whether he's going to run or not run.And he said he will.

And he said he will.But the psychodrama goes on.So this is, as I said, the question that everyone is contemplating.Does Streeting have the numbers?Does he have the 80?Now, on the face of it, from what I can gather talking to MPs, there's two schools of thought about this.

On the face of it, it would seem pretty illogical if he didn't have the numbers for him to wield the knife, because if he doesn't have the numbers, surely he's just going to resign.And that's going then he's going to be in the wilderness and it will expose him.It will make him look weak, not as a proper challenger.And it's certainly possible that, you know, we know that lots of the people have resigned, have kind of been, quote, unquote, his people.We know that a lot of the people calling for him to go have been his people.And he definitely has other allies, ministerial allies who haven't resigned yet, who when push came to shove, I think would resign and would back him.

So it's possible that he's got the 80.There is another school of thought I've heard, which Which included one person telling me he has lost the plot.that this is an insane move.And they think, a bit as you were just saying John, that he has been streeting, he's been destabilised and driven to anger by all of this talk of bottling it, of looking like a coward, and streeting who is very alive, more than most cabinet ministers too, how he is perceived in the media, is therefore rolling the dice because he was aware there was a picture going around just as a vignette to sort of illustrate this, there was a picture going around.All the Labour MP WhatsApp groups were sent to me last night that had a picture of Newcastle Brown bottles with Wes Streeting's face plastered over it, which is, you know, Bottle of Wes, and that he, this has got to him, that he's decided to roll the dice, that he's haunted by the idea.He's always wanted to be Prime Minister from when he was a young man, and he is haunted by the idea that this is his David Miliband moment, that he's the crown is within his grasp, that he only needs the courage to pluck up the will and the courage to grasp it and it will be his.

Now, most people in the Labour Party believe that even if he does have the 80 and he gets through to the ballot of the members, that he will not be elected because they will not elect him because the politics of the Labour Party is not where he is, which is on the right of the party.

Look, I think it's worth saying that we obviously don't know what West Streeting is going to do tomorrow.And it is entirely possible that actually, as of yesterday, he didn't know either.So maybe he was goaded.Maybe.I mean, we know that people around him resigned.And there is something of the kind of like, you know, if your PPS has resigned, if another health minister has resigned, if your allies have resigned, it's a bit like sort of being the fourth parachutist out of the aircraft and say, yeah, you go, I'm right behind you.

You know, you jump.I'll be fine.I'll be right behind you.And then they're looking back and going, wait, why is he still in the aircraft?Like, what is he doing?So I think there is also a sense of, you know, responsibility, loyalty.

If people around you have gone, is he thinking, well, you know, I can't be the one that watches them fall and maybe sort of slightly crash to the ground.Yeah.So you're, that doesn't help my analogy, but yes, he's both marched and pushed.But, but essentially there is probably a bit of him thinking I've kind of I've got to this point now and they've gone ahead of me, so I've got to do this.I think there's also a point, you know, when you see Andy Burnham arriving at Euston saying, I think I've got my seat, you know, I think I've got my by -election to fight.Maybe to our point yesterday about, you know, you choose your own adventure.

Maybe where Streeting's going, I've probably got 48 hours to get this off the ground now.

Look, your parachutist analogy is a good one, because I think that's probably exactly what he's doing.He's seeing what the reaction is to those resignations and seeing whether people are kind of ringing him up or WhatsAppping him and saying, you're absolutely right, I'm behind you.I mean, you quoted LBJ on the podcast yesterday and the kind of rule number one of politics of LBJ is learn to count.

Actually, I quoted Roosevelt, FDR, which is do something.But the LBJ one is the next one.Right.OK.Learn how to count.Learn how to count.

Sorry, I'm mistook.

I'm misheard on the Eurostar coming back from wherever I was coming back from.And I think that that is, you know, surely he must know whether he's got the numbers.And then presumably he must.I mean, I know this is a dynamic process.So there are no kind of 100 percent guarantees and people are duplicitous.And so, you know, it's perfectly possible that MPs are not being straightforward when they say, oh Wes, absolutely.

Well, they don't know either.There's so many newbies coming in, right?They're probably thinking, shit, I think so, but I don't know.I mean, I've also been hearing, I have to say, from people who can'tme because they said that their names had been added to the other list, as in the Keir supporter list, when they hadn't put them on.Now, we know about Rupa Hark, right?

She sort of tweeted quite visibly that she hadn't actually signed up to that letter and she was holding her counsel.Other people have been in touch with me since.And it's not just the question of why their names were on it.It's also a question of why they felt the need to get in touch to say this seems to be happening.

Well, it seems it seems that an awful lot of MPs are holding their breath right now that they you know if you think of the people that have signed and said right here you've got to go and then you've got the payroll vote which is all the ministers and cabinet ministers and parliamentary private secretaries you know that's about 80 or 90 people there are an awful lot of people who've not said one thing nor the other and I think it does leave Starmer in this position now where he is too strong to die but too weak to thrive, too weak to govern, too weak to be able to do anything.And so this Labour does seem to have managed to get itself into the worst of all possible positions right now, where you cannot see an easy, clean way out of this.

I think that said, if streeting does have the numbers, I think it's impossible to really imagine how Starmer survives.No, I agree.Because although, I mean...

But that would mean...OK, so that would mean people that hadn't yet signed their name, because of that 81, we know that not all of those people are streeting people.So he has got to have a whole bulk that haven't yet signed up that he knows are for him.

Well, well, I mean, in the event of a contest, of course, Starmer and we should talk about the rules for this maybe, maybe a bit, which is, you know, Starmer automatically goes on the ballot as the leader if he wants to contest and doesn't need numbers.But just in terms of the parliamentary support Starmer has, I mean, or might not have.I mean, John, you talk about the 80 or 90 or so have come forward to say he's got to go.Got to remember as well, there are a lot ofLabour MPs who have not said anything publicly, but have said something to the whips.I was talking to one last night who told me this.

He said, I let my whip know yesterday there are a lot of us in this position.I believe the PM should resign.We want him to understand the mood of the parliamentary party and go with dignity.We want to maximise the ability of the Labour Party to come together after this.The PM's reputation is being damaged by his refusal to accept political realities.So in the event, of course, that there is a contest and what happens is the rules are that you have to have 80 MPs come forward to challenge Starma.

at which point there will be a contest within the Labour Party.Starmer, if he wants to fight it, will automatically be on the ballot.That's what happened when, it's kind of the Jeremy Corbyn precedent, when he was challenged in 2016 by his own MPs, he automatically goes on the ballot.So theoretically, and Starmer has said he will do this, he says that he will put himself forward.Now I think in that scenario, I think it will become very clear from those sorts of MPs I've just talked about, they will go public and say Prime Minister, do not stand in this election.And not just Labour MPs, I mean it's something I think that has kind of been sort of missed a bit today or hasn't sunk in quite enough today, is this extraordinary and unprecedented joint statement from all of the affiliated unions of the Labour Party, the 11 affiliated unions, some of whom, remember, some of which endorsed Starmer back in 2020, all saying that it is clear that the Prime Minister will not lead Labour into the next election.

Now that means that Starmer is losing the support and authority from within the Parliamentary Labour Party and within the wider movement and it means that basically Starmer will not have a majority on the NEC, the ruling body of the Labour Party anymore because the unions are so represented.His power within the party, he kind of looks a bit stronger today on the surface but he's not.It is ebbing and ebbing and ebbing away.

I think we're very close to what happened with the Thatcherwhen she faced the challenge and she was two votes short of winning outright and so there would have to be another contest and what happened then was and I think this is what happens if Wes Streeting gets the numbers that The cabinet on day one, you know came out that mad see those mad scenes yesterday of people rushing to the microphone West Street in scurrying up Downing Street But you know and you played it on the podcast yesterday, you know, they're all coming out to say Oh, well, you know kid we've got kids back and we love care I think that if there is properly a challenge and it's going to happen that is the moment when the cabinet go in one by one to see here and say I'm sorry.We wanted to support you.We did support you.But now we're in a position where the game is up, which is exactly what happened with Thatcher when all these ministers went in one by one to say, I'm sorry, Margaret, you can't carry on.You don't have the support to do that.

And I think that's what would happen.

then?Currently the cabinet, or at least some of it, is in the tea room.We're just hearing from Lucy McDade at Sky News that Rachel Reeves is in Parliament of the Commons members' tea room trying to persuade them from not backing Wes.In other words, This is a leadership battle that's already on.And I know there'll be people listening to this podcast, this episode now and saying, why are you getting ahead of yourselves?Like nothing has happened.

Wes Streeting went in to have a 15 minute coffee with Keir Starmer.And since then, we've heard nothing.Please don't jump the gun.But I would have to say, as I think we tried to say yesterday, this is not happening because the media is sort of frothing at the mouth.It is happening around us, whether or not you want to hear about this.And it sounds as if Rachel Reeves right now realises is that her part to play, certainly if she wants to stay as Chancellor, is in persuading people around her not to back the Health Secretary, who, as we discussed earlier, may or may not be the Health Secretary this term.

tomorrow.

Look, let's assume for a moment that Streeting has got the numbers and there is going to be a contest.Feels to me, again from conversations I've been having, that there are then two big decisions for two different people to make.We know there is going to be a leadership contest.It takes Andy Burnham out of it.He cannot run as much as he might want to.he's not in Parliament.

Therefore, the big question becomes where Streeting is representing the right of the party.Let's also assume that Starmer wants to stand but struggles to have legitimacy to do so.What happens to the soft left of the party?Who is representing the soft left of the party, which is the bulk or at least, you know, a lot of Labour MPs?The natural answer would be Angela Rayner.does she stand in that contest?

Now there are lots of schools of opinion on that about whether she even wants to do it.The HMRC issue is not resolved but there are other potential reasons she might not want to as well and there are some people around her who I think don't want her to do it but want her to be a big part of the next government.If she does not stand, the name on everyone's lips in terms of representing, standing for the soft left of the party is Ed Miliband.And I do think that the scenario we're seeing play out is a scenario that has been being muttered about for a long time now and whispered about, which is the Ed Miliband scenario, which is the Ed Miliband who does not want to actually be leader, I think, again.I think he would dearly like to be chancellor, possibly in a Burnham government.Who knows?

But in a situation where he felt where streeting was going to stand, the impression I get from talking to MPs is that he would feel that he could not and would not risk Wes Streeting, this is a guy who does not like Miliband, the right of the party, he would not risk a Streeting victory and would therefore potentially stand and if he were to stand, this might strike some viewers and listeners as weird considering of course he lost the 2015 election and so on, he is deeply popular among Labour Party members who would be the ones who would be voting.So if this is a scenario we're seeing playing out and you're out there, would you vote fora 2015 voter wishing that Ed Miliband had become Prime Minister, this is the scenario which is most likely to yield Ed Miliband as Prime Minister of this country.

So are there other candidates who can emerge?Because if it's 80 to get on the ballot and there are 400 Labour MPs, John Sopel's maths is just about capable to work out that there could be five potential candidates who could get 80.Well, Keir doesn't have to get 80, so he could just stand alone.Yeah, it could be six if they were evenly distributed.I mean, of course, they won't be.But I just wonder, is there anyone else who, you know, because there will be people who will take against the idea.

Can I just say one thing?I mean, you know, You don't have to be that old or have that long a memory to go back to Ed Miliband winning the Labour leadership against his brother David and others, and Burnham in fact, and then going on to you know, fail the election against, to lose the election to David Cameron.It does seem to me, and we did talk yesterday about trying to avoid the psychodramas.The problem with the Labour Party, or with any party really, is it talks to itself the whole time.So Ed Miliband is fantastically popular within a group of people that already like Ed Miliband and the Labour Party.If you go out to the wider country, there is almost no one in the cabinet who is less popular with people people who are not natural Labour voters than Ed Miliband.

And if you ask people outside the Labour Party, or who would not naturally vote Labour, who they might warm to, you know, as a Labour Prime Minister, if they had to choose somebody, it would be more in the character of Shabana Mahmood, right?And Shabana Mahmood will never get the leadership because the Labour Party don't like her.And sorry, but that is the vicious circle that you're in, that the Labour Party...

That's always been party politics, hasn't it?

In the sense that the party...to the left or the right of the electorate.But that is why Keir worked.works, stroke works, because people didn't have an image of him as being one flank or another.He just about he was just about OK.He was OK for the bond markets.

He was all right for people who were natural Lib Dem voters, maybe even some natural Tory voters who said, yeah, we've had enough.We're going we're going we're going to give Labour a chance.This is just repeating what Labour already knows, that people who like Labour will vote for Ed Miliband.People who won't vote Labour won't.

I'll just push back with the kind of This is what people say, the case for Ed, right?If he were to stand.The case is, right, first of all, he could unite the party.He's on the soft left of the party.That's where most of the party is.You have Streeting or someone like that.

He pulls the party apart.Ashurbana also potentially pulls the party apart.Ed would unite the party.That's important.They would also say, what is the criticism of one of the main problems that Starmer has had?You basically have a politician without politics who doesn't really know what he thinks, who doesn't have a sense of mission about what his government should be about.

Ed Miliband, That is not the case for Ed Miliband.Ed Miliband has a deeply cultivated political philosophy.He has a very clear idea about what he wants to do.The sharpest sense of what social democracy means in the 21st century.And, and they would also say, yes, of course, he was leader.Yes, it didn't go well.

They would say that he's grown a lot since then.He's a far more fluent and formidable communicator.He gets that sort of 2026 content age that we're in.He's one of the few members of the cabinet who can actually really do that.And so it would be reluctant.

He would be a gift to reform.He would be a gift to Kemi Badenoch.

He'd be a gift to reform.So I mean, well, that's why they've got to do better.

So we mentioned on Passon, one particular group there and what their reaction would be.And that is the bond markets.And if the bond markets thought it was going to be Ed Miliband, I wonder what would happen to the cost of government borrowing.And I kind of I know it's utterly anathema and reallyso that, you know, people think, well, hang on.How can the bond markets decide who our next prime minister is going to be?

What?Yeah.But it does matter.The cost of government borrowing.Well, actually, up to a point.

I mean, look, I understand that when Rachel Reeves, you know, cries in parliament and the bond markets get really shirty, then nothing happens.And we go, oh, thank God we've calmed them down.That can't be a sustainable argument.It genuinely can't be a sustainable argument that we can't stop, you know, with one person or one chance because of the bond markets, because actually what you're doing is you're saying Labour's completely in hock to this one thing.You're not talking about policy.You're not talking about growth.

You're not talking.You're genuinely not talking about anything with any vision or any narrative.You're just talking about fear.That cannot be right.

Also, I mean, we should also say as well that like, you know, bond market investors today have pushed UK gilts to a 28 -year high.So the instability, I mean, this is one of the things that people go around talking about Starmer at the moment.So we've got to keep Starmer there because he is the stability and you've got the bond markets.Well, you can also, the counterpoint to that is to say Starmer's weakness and his lack of authority over the party is the instability.That's what's causing the instability.And what is happening on the bond markets is happening now.

Now, you might say, oh, well, it would be even worse with Angela Rayner or Ed Miliband or whoever.But right now, we're seeing that market instability now.And let's be honest, for the reasons I've said, it's not going to resolve with Starmer, because although he looks a bit stronger today, sort of on paper, he survived yesterday.The conversation hasn't gone away.The basis of power has already flowed from all the different parts of the Labour Party and Parliament.So it's just a matter of when.

Let's just throw this one in then.And obviously, we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.It's entirely possible that Wes will challenge.It's also entirely possible that we'll have a day where nothing happens.But are you saying that Wes Streeting cannot win?Could he win against Starmer but not against Miliband?

Is that where we are?

I don't think there is any way.that Streeting wins.contest against Ed Miliband and possibly even against Dahmer because, you know, frankly, the Labour Party leadership contests are not that difficult.All you basically do is say he's a Blairite bastard and I'm not.

And you've got three white men in that.And we've got three white men in that contest.And you don't think there'll be a woman and you don't think they'll be...

Well, Reina might stand.You just hear conflicting things about whether she wants it and whether she will.And so if Reina were to stand, I think it's hard to see an Ed Miliband contest.

Ed Miliband standing and she again might win, but who knows?Lewis, I don't disagree with you, but isn't it absurd?that the insult that would be heard, that would be hurled, and that would cost him the job is the fact that he's a Blair Wright bastard.We don't want another person who keeps winning elections.That'd be bloody disastrous for Labour.We're not in politics to win elections.

Let's go for a proven election loser like Ed Miliband.Look, it's mad.

Maybe politics has changed since 2015 though, John.Maybe he could win an election.No, no.

But that's the weirdest thing.OK, but that is the weirdest thing.Like, go back to that contest.was the Miliband brothers and Andy Burnham.Like, honestly?Are we still doing that?

What the actual fuck?

Let's call Diane Abbott up, see if she wants to stand up.I think we should get David back from New York, find a by -election for him to fight as well.

I guess that is the question.Where is the new talent?You know, why aren't we talking about new talent now?

Well, what about, of course, the real dark horse, of course, is Al Khan, the MP for Birmingham, Selly Oak, a former army veteran who people do talk about, although I have to say it would be truly even more ludicrous from my point of view to the Labour Party.The Labour Party is like, oh, we've got this leader who when we elected him, we didn't know what his politics was, but he had a great backstory, kind of looked the part, but basically he has no direction because he doesn't really know what he thinks and none of us know what he thinks.So let's replace him with a guy who has even less, it's even less of aknown what he thinks as far as anyone knows has even less of a political philosophy but fuck me he can bench press like I mean you know is that really is that really where we're at as as a polity that would really be the end I think I mean, I guess, you know, what we should say is that we have all basically leapfrogged what's actually happened today to talk about what might happen tomorrow, what we're expecting to happen tomorrow.

And if you go back to the King's speech, which I think we should, you know, spend a couple of minutes doing, maybe we can hear a bit.The King then, you know, in the ermine, on the crown, is basically reading out Keir Starmer's own words.And a lot of it is about security, resilience, again, security, stability.I mean, these are the words that keep coming back.And I guess the question is, will there be people in the country who say, just let the man get on with shoring up our stability as a country.You know, if this is what is the plan, you know, to bring down prices, to bring down, to sort of boost our defence spending.

He's talking about, you know, speed up remediation for cladding.I know that's something that we've done a lot on before.He's talking about raising standards to support the young and disabled.Doesn't talk about the welfare bill at all, interestingly enough.So no cuts to that.But there will be people in the country who say, give it a rest, like just give it a rest.

just let the guy get on with something that looks like, you know.

Yeah.But I think against that, there are an awful lot of people who really dislike Keir Starmer with an intensity that I find hard to understand, given that basically he is a decent guy.He's not ideological.

That's not what a lot of people around him say, George.A lot of people don't think he's a decent guy.

OK.

But I think he's what he described himself as, which is a hard bastard.Yeah.are people who think that the Starmer decency thing is...

.Well, I thought that showed itself with the Ollie Robin sacking.But I think that perception...All I'm saying is that I think in the country, there is a profound dislike of Keir Starmer that seems to be slightly out of proportion to, you know, what his public image is, which is as a sort of, you know, bland, managerial, I suppose if the country wanted stability, what they would need to do is just keep voting for Keir Starmer's government, you know, in elections and by -elections and in the polling, but they're not.

So if the public wants stability, ultimately it does go back to the public's political decisions.I mean, they keep voting for they keep voting for change.They keep doing it.And if, you know, ultimately, if Labour just had a great set of local elections, if they kept winning by elections, if they were polling at even 30 percent, none of this conversation would be happening.Like, you know, I don't want to say it's the public's fault, but the public is part of this.Right.

So there aren't enough people saying they want Keir Starmer to stay on and be stable for that to happen.

And do this.Right?I mean, is this Starmer or is it his government?Does the person who comes, let's imagine, after Starmer, have to stick to this legislative agenda that the King has just read out?Or is all that ripped up?

All to be decided.We'll be back in just a moment.So in other news at Westminster this morning, because amazingly there is other stuff going on apart from Labour's psychodrama, and it's that the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner has announced that he's launching an inquiry into whether the Reform UK leader Nigel Farage and member of Parliamentfor Clacton broke Commons rules by trousering five million quid and not declaring it before he became an MP.I mean, what has the world come to where you can't even take a humble little five million quid gift and have to tell someone about it?Yeah, it was just a personal donation.

It was a personal donation.It was personal, you know.just didn't notice it.

We all get given 5 million quid.A little 5 million here, a little 5 million there.Farage has insisted, this is from Christopher Harbourn, you'll know by now, he's the Thai -based cryptocurrency billionaire.

Can you use his proper Thai name please?

I really, I bet you've got that.

Yes.People can go back and listen to the episode.We did it a couple of Fridays ago.We did a good deep dive into this.He bizarrely has a Thai name.

Yeah, he has a Thai name and he runs a rather beautiful sort of spa or something, doesn't he?

A wellness retreat.

A wellness retreat to make Nigel Farage feel better.And Farage, I think, has argued that this is basically for his personal protection.He has pointed out that a lot of people want to kill him or he thinks they want to hurt him and that he's used this money for his security.Right.He's used it for, I don't know, bodyguards or personal security or whatever.

And he does have a lot of personal security.

And he does have personal security.Again, that would not prohibit you, presumably, if that was a great bona fide reason, from declaring it and saying, this is the money that I've been given and this is it going into the register.I guess what this means, and it's only an investigation at the moment, but the committee does have the power to suspend Farage for from the Commons, and potentially to prompt a recall petition in Clacton.What does that mean?It means if more than 10 % of the electorate in his constituency decide that they want to call a by -election, then they vote to recall, at which point Farage himself could then possiblysit a by -election.

Andy.

Hello.

Andy Burnham.

I don't think Clacton would be that favourable for Andy Burnham.Keir's like, I found your receipt, Andy.Not to worry.King of the estuary.Yeah, I mean, and that will happen if the Commons authority is suspended for more than 10 days, then that does trigger that recall petition, which could potentially lead to that by -election and who knows.But so there's lots of sort of stages to go before that.

I mean, the rules are, you know, Clear, the Commons Code of Conduct says that new MPs must register all their current financial interests and any registrable benefits other than earnings received in the 12 months before their election within one month of their election.The rules say that purely personal gift or benefits from family or commercial loans would not normally have to be registered.So Reform have been sort of trying to hammer home that last bit, arguing that it is a purely personal gift, but clearly for, you know, for the commissioner to take this up, like lots of stuff does get to refer to them.You know, it's a classic thing that, you know, opposition parties do or governing parties do.If someone's in the soup, as they used to say, then they would, you know, refer to someone and say, hope you start a investigation.Often the commissioner just discards it.

So they must think, I think we can safely infer that the commissioner must think there is grounds to believe that he may have broken the rules to open this investigation.And look, I think we can see like being in receipt of five million from a guy who has already given 12 million to your party in the year 2025 alone and has promised to give more and gets a lot of his money from crypto, Thailand based guy.Clearly for the People's Army, not an ideal look.

And a record nine million in a single political donation in August.A single donation, I should say.

than talking about what the rules are and whether they were broken or not, the politics of this, as I see it playing out, is that Farage will play from the Trump handbook that it's people trying to gang up on me and you know it's victimization and I am just because I'm upsetting you this you can't beat me at the ballot box so you can try and beat me through you know rule me out and I think we saw what happened with Trump in 2023, 2024.

What I love about this country is that we still believe in our systems and thank God, right?I love the fact that the Parliamentary Commissioner is actually calling this and not saying, oh, I don't want to give him political fire here or I don't want to, you know, I mean, that is not the reason to not do your job.Right.So, you know, let's just kind of thank God we still live in a democracy where these things are taken seriously.Even if there's nothing, even if he's done nothing wrong, great that actually you have institutions that are respected and carry on doing their job without intimidation.

And, you know, look, Farage wants the attention.So does Zak Polanski in the Green Party want the attention.And yet when these things are thrown at them, whether it's over a five million pound donation or not paying your council tax, then they get really uppity and think, oh, God, why are you having a go?And this is just, you know, this sort of establishment political parties having a go.No, you're being treated like serious players and you're going to be held to account like serious players.

And we should say as well that we would not even have known about this five million from Chakrit Sakhinkrit.That rolled off the tongue, didn't it?

Thank God it came back and popped into your mind.

Quite so.Were it not for the work of Anna Isaac of The Guardian, who has been doing all the work on this.So, like, you know, we don't even know for sure.I mean, I was asking them on various reform people on election night last week, like, is this all the money?Is there other money?Are there other millions?

Either from Mr Sacking Crit or from somebody else?They couldn't say.And, you know, Farage's line has been throughout to say that, you know, this has all been used for security.It's the same thing.Well, let's see the receipts, you know, just so the public can be absolutely sure that this is a pure, purely, purely about security.Oh, you don't need to do it.

You don't need we don't need to see that because we've given you our word that that's the case.Well, if you're going in saying that trust in politics is broken, that we need to drain the swamp, you do need to provide a certain level of assurance that you're not like everybody else.And this is genuinely not like everybody else because because there is no other political figure on record that we can think of who has received such a large amount of money.from one single source.We've never seen one party so dependent on the largesse from one person.And at the same time, and obviously they're saying there is no link between these things whatsoever.

They've got 12 million from this crypto billionaire.And it just so happens to be the Reform Party has the most pro crypto prospectus of any major party.And as well, Nigel Farage, before any of this was even known about the five million, goes on LBC talking to our colleague Nick Ferrari, and it just trips off the tongue.Mr Harborne's company and what he happens to be doing, saying that it's a great example of where Britain is being left behind by the crypto boom.Remarkable.That's just coincidence.

So cynical.

We'll be back in a moment to be on the brink.Well, my advice to him has always been open up, open up your oil in the North Sea.You got one of the great oil finds anywhere in the world and you're not using it.They're not allowed to use it.And it's one of the best in the world, among the best oils in the world.Open up your oil in the North Sea and get tough on immigration.

Did he stay or go?Europe is being very, very hurt by immigration all over Europe.Did he stay or go?That's up to him.But I've told him from day one, you're getting killed on energy.You're windmilling your country to death.

Open up the North Sea.You have one of the greatest Keir, you are windmilling our country to death.

That is the one criticism that I don't think anyone else actually threw at him on Friday in those local election results.But that was Trump, who has basically told Keir Starmer to open up North Sea oil.I guess a lot of people in this country would probably back him.Although, ironically, in the King's speech, the one thing that Keir Starmer was absolutely adamant about was that ain't happening.So it does feel like a quiet two fingers up to the US president.

Well, Donald Trump is now in China for his meeting with President Xi, which is hugely important.But before he went, he had a lot to get off his chest in a very short space of time.55 truth social posts in the space of three hours.I'm going to give you maybe eight minutes of them.10 .15pm.Accuses Obama of attempting a coup in 2016.

10 .15pm.Says Obama worked with the CIA to overthrow Trump.10 .15pm.Repost tweets saying Obama is a traitor and that he should be arrested.10 .22pm.Attacks Dominion voting systems for 2020 election saying they switch votes.

10 .22pm.Says Fulton County, Georgia had their 2020 fraud exposed.There was none.10 .23.Accuses Obama of personally making $120 million from Obamacare don't know where that comes from 10 23 p .m.

sites quack lawyer Sidney Powell on the 2020 election 10 24 p .posts fake JFK Jr account that says Obama wiretapped Trump Tower.10 .27pm demands Senator Mark Kelly resign.And so it went on.

Do you know what?What's going on inside that head?There's an image I can't get out of my head now which is like, maybe he's just on the loo, you know?

Oh, Emily.

They're always sort of talking about teenagers taking their phones with them and how bad it is. I wonder whether Trump just kind of locks himself away and just kind of can't leave the phone away.

We've got lovely viewers and listeners.They don't want to end this podcast listening and thinking about that particular image.We'll see you tomorrow.Bye bye.

Bye for now.

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