‘He thinks he's smarter than the POPE?: Nicolle and Tim Miller ROAST JD Vance over Vatican beef

Donald Trump is finding out that the words of the Bible are kryptonite to his authoritarian project. In his standoff with Pope Leo over whether Donald Trump's already deeply unpopular war of choice in Iran is justified, Donald Trump and his allies are learning that their school year bullying tactics will not work against someone who can't be pressured or intimidated or bought, and someone who happens to be much more popular and beloved than Donald Trump.

The Pope today sounding undeterred by J.D. Vance's stern warning that he, the Pope, should be, quote, careful when it comes to matters of theology. Pope Leo quoting the Bible against Team Trump, and then going a little bit further, watch.

Jesus told us, blessed are the peacemakers. But woe to those who manipulate religion in the very name of God for their own military, economic, or political gain, dragging that which is sacred into darkness and filth. The world is being ravaged by a handful of tyrants. It is held together by a multitude of supportive

brothers and sisters.

Pope was speaking those remarks in Cameroon, a country ruled by an authoritarian for decades now, but what he said could just as easily be applied to and intended to be directed at Donald Trump. The Pontiff's ex account posted those same comments online just minutes after Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth made an analogy that put Trump in the place of

Jesus Christ at a press briefing.

I sat there in church and I thought, our press are just like these Pharisees. Not all of you, not all of you, but the legacy Trump-hating press. Your politically motivated animus for President Trump nearly completely blinds you from the brilliance of our American warriors. The Pharisees scrutinized every good act in order to find a violation, only looking for the negative. The hardened hearts of our press are calibrated only to impugn. I would ask

you to open your eyes to the goodness, the historic success of our troops, the courage of this president.

There are many good things I could say, but instead I'm going to quote the Pope, quote, woe to those who manipulate religion in the very name of God for their own military, economic or political gain. The world worries that Trump, though, has started with the pope is a dizzying turn of events. At the moment, Donald Trump is dogged by approval ratings in the mid-to-low 30s. He's being dragged down politically by this war that he has started and fails to ever decide to go before the American

people and try to explain it. He's also being damaged by a litany of unfulfilled promises and outright flip-flops on the front of bringing down the cost of things, which he ran on. So, why pick a fight with the Pope, someone who is seen favorably by more than 80% of all Catholics, regardless of what political party they are in?

A Pope who was in a poll last year, rated by all Americans as the most liked among a list of global figures. The Bulwark tries to explain it. They write this quote, "'Trump is not wrong to sense that their choice

of Robert Privost as the first American pope poses a kind of threat to him. After all, the first Polish pope helped liberate his home country from authoritarian rule. Trump and the Trumpists are worried that the first American pope could contribute to such a development here. The Trumpists fear Pope Leo not simply because he's

defending the views and speaking to the communicants of his church. They fear him because he's defending the principles and speaking to the citizens of his country, of our country. That is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Elizabeth Dias is back with us.

She's a national religion correspondent for The New York Times. Also joining us, political analyst, host of the Bulwark podcast, Tim Miller's back with us. Also back with us, senior political analyst, contributing host on Pod Save America,

host of the podcast Runaway Country. Our friend Alex Wagner is back. Elizabeth, let me start with you and let me read a little bit of what you write in the New York Times. Quote, after Mr. Vance, who has been a Catholic

for about seven years, admonished Pope Leo to be more careful if he was going to opine on matters of theology. The chairman of the US Catholic Bishops Doctrine Committee shot back with a rare clarification statement about what Catholic just war theory really means. Quote, for over a thousand years the Catholic Church has taught just war

theory and it is that long tradition the Holy Father carefully references in his comments on war. Bishop James Massa wrote, to be a just war, he said, it must be a defense against another who actively wages war, which is what the Holy Father actually said. He does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war. Bishop Massa added, quote, when Pope Leo XIV speaks as Supreme Pastor of the Universal Church, he's not merely offering opinions on theology, he is preaching a gospel.

These guys can't get through two hours of a news cycle without being rebuked by a universally respected post-political nonpartisan figure in the Catholic Church.

It's really remarkable. What we're watching is far from just a political fight. This is a deeply theological debate that has, you know, centuries, millennia of historic Catholic moral theology and teaching behind it. And so this is just wild to be watching the chairman of the Doctrine Committee of the

U.S. Catholic bishops weigh in. I mean, this is a very rare statement for them to do and to say, actually, let's stop and review what Catholic teaching on just war really is. So for Pope Leo, you know, he's not even one year into being pope and we've all really been waiting to see what is his voice going to be, what kind of moral leader is he going to be on the world stage, especially regarding his home country, the United States. We've never had a pope from America before, and we're really starting to see him flex this voice in a careful, reserved way that he's known for, and it's really not sitting well

with the folks in the White House.

Elizabeth, I love the bulwark piece, but the one thing I would bet any amount of money Trump has no idea about is sort of these tides of authoritarian waves being beaten back in other countries. There may be people around him,

though, that understand and appreciate that history. What, in your view, is sort of your assessment of all the blind spots that are revealed?

I mean, it's not just political. It's also structural. I mean, Donald Trump's structural support hinges on and collapses without the sort of shared mission with Christians in this country and the perception that even if he's not a

moral man, he has done things that have been perhaps on their policy checklist for a very long time. Now that he has taken direct aim at the most popular religious figure in the world today, and certainly the most popular American faith leader, that seems to all be on the line.

Well, it certainly has taken by surprise many of the very conservative Catholics and even some evangelicals that I've been talking to in the last few days. I think there was a miscalculation here perhaps by the president and he was perhaps used to the previous Pope, Pope Francis, who was Pope during a very different time when Donald Trump first came to office and we were hearing so much then from conservatives who really didn't like that Pope the way

that he was raising up issues like nuclear war, climate change, things that they didn't want to highlight as much as issues like homosexuality and abortion. And that worked to President Trump's advantage. You could capitalize on their being disgruntled. But Pope Leo isn't like that. And there's been so many conservatives who have really fallen in love with this Pope

because he's bringing back this reliance on ritual and tradition. He's moved – it's simple things. This is often the symbol of how things work in the Catholic Church, moving back into the apostolic palace, showing a reverence for old traditions, like carrying the cross himself around the Colosseum on Good Friday. These things have endeared to him, to many conservatives, the very people who were in President Trump's base.

And I think this, I've talked to people who have voted for him three times and are now saying, this is way too far, don't go after our Pope.

You know, there is something about this story, Tim, that is out of their control. And so the other fascinating dynamic is You know, and I always think of that movie the sixth sense right Bruce Willis was dead and he didn't know it I mean politically this feels like a story that or a battle that they've lost and they just don't know it and it is Not just among Catholics that they are sort of losing ground.

Let me show you how Stephen Colbert talked about it

last night.

Hey, hey, hey, JD. I know you're Catholic, but you joined in 2019, OK? I've been genuflecting since the mid-1960s. And let me tell you, brother... Okay?

I think... I think...

I think you're out of... I think you're out... No, I got something to say! I think you're out over your Catholic skis here, okay? I think it's time for you to sit down, then stand back up, then kneel, then stand again,

then shake hands with people around you, then kneel a little more, then go take communion, and then go back to your pew for some more kneeling, because you're not sneaking out of here after communion, because you know who left the Last Supper early?

Judas.

You know, they're not just wrong. They're not just losing ground. They're the butt of jokes.

Yeah, indeed. Steven took the wind out of my sails a little bit because I was about to make fun of JD Vance for being a couch joining the Catholic Church two minutes ago. I had to go Jen, you flagged it Neil and get first communion and all that back in the 80s. So Stephen's got 20 years on me. But it is it is something that is worth noting, right? That to JD Vance in particular, we can put Trump in a separate category here, but he at least thinks that he has a future political career, right?

I don't think that he thinks that he's in a sixth sense situation and he has a book coming out, like this, in the next couple months,

about his conversion to the Catholic Church

And so I just think about how insane

The the pitch J.D. Vance is offering to people. It's like I thought Trump was Hitler I thought Trump could be Hitler and then I came around to the fact that he was actually the greatest thing ever He's perfect and I have to follow everything he does and at the same time as I came to that conclusion, I came to the conclusion that I have a new faith. I'm a Catholic. And I went to the classes, the RCIA, OCIA classes. And apparently after going to a couple of those classes, I think I know more about theology than the Pope.

So I'm going to warn him. I'm going to warn him with everything I've learned in my night classes. I'm going to wag my finger at Pope Leo. I know more than you. You should shut your pie

hole and stick to theology. It's like, what? It's crazy. It's totally crazy. It's like, who is going to believe this? Like that he had a conversion to Donald Trump and a conversion who is going to believe this? Like that he had a conversion to Donald Trump and a conversion to the Catholic church at the same time. and he thinks he's smarter than the Pope?