Hired Help? Mystery Perp? Nancy Guthrie Search Blows Wide Open | Nancy Guthrie Missing Day 14

Hey everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield and this is Drop Dead Serious. It is Saturday, February 14th. It's Valentine's Day. It is also two weeks since anyone last saw Nancy Guthrie alive after she was dropped off following a dinner with her family members. And after 14 days, you can imagine that people are upset. They are frustrated. They have followed every moment. I'm sure you have been following every moment of this case. It is perplexing, it is confounding. How do you just steal an 84-year-old grandmother and get away with it?

That's how most people feel, and I'm sure that members of law enforcement feel the same

way.

Guaranteed, they know more than we do, however. On this episode tonight, I've got somebody just fantastic. I mean, God, Maureen O'Connell has always amazed me, right? She looks like she's this pretty delicate little flower, and she's just, she's one

tough lady.

She spent 25 years in the FBI as a special agent, and she knows her shit. I had this incredibly detailed conversation with her about specifics, about facts in this case and specifics and she weighs in on stuff she hasn't said elsewhere and other people haven't said either. Really interesting stuff. Also, did you hear that there is now a signal sniffer that's entered the story. Interesting because Matt Murphy and I talked several days ago about figuring out some way to get Nancy Guthrie's phone to sort of fly over houses within 30 feet

because it might reconnect to her pacemaker. Pacemakers don't die, they don't go away. Even if she's alive or dead, the pacemaker's still going. The signal sniffer apparently is supposed to do that job. I'm gonna go into detail about the signal sniffer and one thing that I don't understand about the method that they're using. So it's a bit weird but I will get

to that in a second. Also big question for you if you were up with me until four o'clock in the morning last night, thank you. I appreciate the company but also I kept thinking to myself, as vehicle after vehicle kept entering the perimeter, dozens of federal and local law enforcement vehicles, SWAT vehicles, forensic vehicles, FBI vehicles,

marked, unmarked, sheriff's deputies, all the rest. I kept thinking, it's a lot of vehicles. There's a lot of manpower. It's one guy. there's one guy, there's one guy who, albeit dangerous, got that, but most people have made a joke of him.

They don't know what he's doing. He's kind of a dope. Some people have even said that the way he carries his gun is called a Mexican carry. Never heard that before, but that it is not professional. And this is like how you would respond to Ted Kaczynski. Anyway, I'm gonna ask Maureen about that.

She's got something interesting to say about it. And then also the sheriff has some new statements. I'm gonna read those for you. A little bit of everything, including, you know what? Strap in, pour a drink, it's gonna happen a lot. Very interesting.

What we saw last night and in Rio Rico, it's going to happen a lot. He said it's going to happen more than once. So I will read that for you so that you hear it word for word. New York Times had a really interesting story about the man who lived next door to the woman whose house was raided. And it is really fascinating to hear what happened to him and how she became part of his night and everything that transpired. I'm going to tell you about that in a second. Also, the hitman theory. Have you been thinking it? I know a lot of people have been thinking it. Was this guy, was he for hire? Did he show up there because he was paid? Because he was hired to do this? A lot of people have said

really looks like he knows the place. Maybe, maybe he knows it. Maybe he's familiar. Maybe he was told about it. I'm going to get into that with Maureen because she's got something to say about that. And Maureen is really interesting in how she weighs in on this whole Florida lab controversy and the whole bitch scrap that everybody's making hay about between the feds and the locals. She's got a very different take on that.

You're going to hear that in a second too. And then I dig down on that Bella clava. I am not over this Bella clava, the ski mask. Everyone's talking about the backpack. Hundreds of those things sold at Walmart, but who buys a ski mask in Arizona? Who buys a Bella clava in Arizona? Okay, a couple skiers here and there, but there's something different about that ski mask. And since I'm a skier, I'm going to tell you exactly why I don't believe a lot of skiers buy that, even Arizonans. I'll show you what I'm talking about in a minute, but that's coming up in just a second.

First though, I have to just thank you so much for being a part of this podcast. Thank you so incredibly much. This is my full-time job now. I left television after 38 years to do this with you so your support means the world to me. Could you subscribe? Just you know, click, click, click. It's really easy. Could you just do me a solid and subscribe? I would so appreciate it. And also I want to tell you that I partnered with some fantastic sponsors that I personally use and like. Joy

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Joy and blokes. Healthcare that actually listens to women. All right. So let me go through a bit of the last 24 hours. And honest to God, it hasn't been 24 hours because I was up till 4 a.m. I think some of y'all were too.

And we're at the two-week mark. Two weeks isn't, believe it or not, it feels like an eternity. And if you're the Guthrie family, it is an eternity. Let's not forget their mother, grandmother. This is a real person and they are hurting. They are really hurting. Can't imagine, just imagine if it's yours. Just imagine if it's your mom. But two weeks in law enforcement isn't, unless you're dealing with a missing person, which time is of the essence.

But solving a crime, which is I think what a lot of us are trying to sort of think through, two weeks is not a lot of time. And so there's a certain element of patience that we all have to kind of adopt. And I know it is hard, right? Because this is a batshit crazy story and something crazy happens almost every five minutes. But you're going to hear Maureen O'Connell weigh in on that because she did it for 25

years. A quarter century of experience. She knows the thing or two. Also, we had a federal warrant executed last night. So it wasn't one of these court approved searches, which was what happened in Rio Rico. No, this was a warrant.

It was gotten. It was got by the feds. I'm going to ask Marie about the significance of that, because I thought it was unique, especially since the sheriff did not put out the statement as per the request of the feds. That was interesting. Three people detained.

Nobody held, nobody arrested, right? So it kind of went nowhere, which I'm sure as you all woke up was the first thing you did, right? What was it?

You got on your phone, what happened?

I was so tired I couldn't stay awake. Nothing, nothing. And I still have a lot of questions about what happened because I watched as they towed off a silver Range Rover that they had put privacy screens up to take a look in the back. And we all know that privacy screens are usually reserved for bodies. No word about that from the sheriff. But I'll read you his entire statement and everything he said today.

But also, Brian Anton said that when he talked to law enforcement, they said while there were no arrests last night, they're still following up, quote, on leads from last night. And one of the things that I learned from so many of these super smart law enforcement people that I've worked with, that I've befriended, that I've stayed in contact with, is that a lead is kind of like a ripple, right? You throw a rock in the water and there's one ripple and then suddenly it's just lots

of ripples. One lead can actually ripple into a lot of different leads. So you just imagine with the tens of thousands of leads that have come into the sheriff's department and also to the FBI, every single one of them is looked at. Now multiply them exponentially because each lead can actually multiply into a rabbit hole. Sometimes it's a good rabbit hole.

Sometimes it really does take you to where you want to go, but that may be the factor of last night when they say that still following up on leads from last night. So let me read you the sheriff's statement that I woke up to this morning. You may have already read it, but I want you to listen to the words specifically because you know words matter.

Good morning media partners. Law enforcement activity colon. Last night a federal court-ordered search warrant was executed at a residence near East Orange Grove Road and North First Avenue in connection with the Guthrie case. The warrant was based on a lead we received. No arrests were made. A traffic stop was also conducted. A person was questioned, but no arrests resulted from that incident. There are no further details available at that time. I'm going to pause

for a second because that's what pissed me off. It's like, hold it. There was a lot of confusion. There's a guy that was sitting in the back of a sheriff's vehicle being interrogated by what looked like an FBI officer and maybe another sheriff's deputy. He was kind of like obscure, but he looked like he was wearing a white hoodie. He definitely had some facial hair. And there was talk that he might have actually been related to the folks who were pulled out of the house, the woman and the man. Some said mother and son. Some said this might have been another son. But there was some connection between these two

stops. But we just don't know what was the connection. Was he the target of all of this and the questioning happened there and the alibi panned out? I don't know. Let me continue. And that Range Rover. Answers. Be nice. You treated it like it was the most important thing, right? The privacy shields and the yellow paper over the license plate. I know that was to keep nosy people like me from making connections and finding out who owns the car. But the car was dirty and was photographed a lot before the privacy shields went up so

they could open. And I was actually watching, I'm not going to lie. It's the business I'm in. As they were opening the back trunk, I was watching the agents who were standing closest to it because I thought if there's been a body in there for a long time, they're going to look away because there will be a horrendous smell that comes out of the vehicle. I saw one woman do it a little bit. She kind of did that, but it wasn't so pronounced that I thought definitely there's a body in

there. I didn't get that feeling. And then again, the other issue was a medical examiner's vehicle didn't show up there either. That's not to say that cars haven't been towed with bodies in them before. I've seen it happen. In Aaron Hernandez's case, that happened.

It's just not typical. So I can't tell you what the hell happened with that Silver Range Rover. I don't know who owns it. I don't know who's not missing it. Nice car. Pima County Sheriff's Department and the FBI continue to work together around the clock on this investigation, tracking all leads. Another show of force in the language because this is important. A lot of news, a lot of ink, a lot of social media on the bitch scrap between the FBI and the locals. I have my own theories on that. I'm going to talk to Maureen about it because she's got some insight too. Very,

very wise insight. We remind the public that there's a reward of up to $100,000 for information leading to the location of Nancy Guthrie and or the arrest and conviction of anyone involved appearance. Call tips into 1-800-CALL-FBI. 1-800-CALL-FBI or 520-351-4900. Next subheading is briefings slash interviews. Kind of know this one by heart. Don't read along with me, right? No interviews, press briefings scheduled at this time. If a significant development occurs, press conference will be announced via email and the at Pima Sheriff X account. Don't hold your breath.

Haven't had one since a week ago Thursday.

Okay.

New York Times had an interesting story. They met up with the man who lives beside the woman whose house was raided. And the man gave a very interesting account. He said the sheriff's deputy knocked on his door and he had already been getting a lot of communications from neighbors and friends who were like unable to return to their homes. They were being locked out of the community. They couldn't come home. They

were being stopped. And so anybody who was in their homes, they were all getting word around four o'clock in the afternoon local time yesterday, something's going on. Because we're barred from entering our own neighborhoods and y'all who are in there probably aren't allowed to come out of your door. And so the sheriff's deputy shows up at this guy's door and here's what's weird. He has the woman with him from the house next door and is asking this neighbor, could you

look after her while we search her house? Could you be with her? Could you give her a place to be? Super interesting. So she's not the target, right? Definitely they didn't want to question her.

That's my thought because you're not going to just throw her in the neighbor's house and then go back, do your searchy work. But this was hours and hours long and this guy said he thought it was just so incredibly bizarre because this is an affluent neighborhood. It's dark. It's quiet.

This was so unlike what they'd ever seen before. Said that the neighbors next door had never caused any problems, any issues. And he said that she did not want to talk about what had gone on. The New York Times wanted to interview her. She didn't want to. But the neighbor, when he took this woman back to her house after the search had ended, they found the warrant.

The federal warrant was sitting in the home. Because you know how it works, right? First, the cops have to have probable cause. I'm going to talk about the level of probable cause, because it's different in this case. And you'll know in a moment why.

Super interesting. But first the cops get the tip or the investigative work leads them to some kind of probable cause, they go to a magistrate or a judge or a night judge or whatever and they get that signed off. That person has to decide, yeah, you know what, I think the Fourth Amendment, you cleared that. It's not an unreasonable search, right? Fourth Amendment's unreasonable search and seizure. So that cleared them to go in, you know, kind of guns a-blazin'. Brian Enten had some great reporting yesterday that they had been doing all this

staging and that the helicopter had been flying around. So they were probably making plans and figuring out how they were gonna, you know, plan the attack. And the next thing you got to do is you got to have kind of a list of stuff in that warrant. You can't just say, I just want to go in and look at everything. You got to have an idea of what it is that your investigative worker tip is leading you towards.

Yeah, I've seen him wear that balaclava. Want to find balaclava. I'm making that up. But that's kind of the idea here. So you kind of have to have a shopping list in your warrant. So NewsNation also spoke with a neighbor of the woman whose house was raided. His name is Peter Malk. And, you know, Brian Enten talks to everybody. And NewsNation was able to, you know, get a few comments from

Peter Malk about what last night was like. Have a look.

Unbelievably absurd. It's making everybody nervous. It's just surreal. And we just can't imagine how the family is processing all this. As a neighbor, as a person that lives in the community, we just wanted to resolve for the positive.

And so what do you make of it? How does it feel? There's 20 cop cars, 20 cop cars, a couple SWAT. Yeah, I live right across the street. Right across the street. Yeah, it's weird. Tell us your thoughts when you saw that going on, maybe, you know, just about trying to process it all. Tell us how you feel about that.

Well, we feel that, you know, they might have gotten a tip. There to be a tip that's, you know, it could be close.

Um, hopefully it's, it's something that's credible and, um, you know, it's actual.

So hopefully they get somebody, but living right so close to it. I can't imagine that if they get somebody that lives right next to me on my street, that, you know, that, that even makes sense, you know, to be in this neighborhood, to have all these cops here. You know, there's bomb squad vehicles, a lot of cops, a lot of presence.

Also, I read along with all of you on the Twitter, on the X, how annoyed we all were by this, like, we waited and waited, what, for like, I think two hours for the sheriff who said, first, there's going to be a press conference. Meet us at this corner. No, no press conference. We're just going to put out a statement. It will be forthcoming.

And then we waited and we waited and we waited into the late hours. And then we got this like blurb. It's like, the fuck? It was like the smallest statement of nothing. And I know a couple of you said nothing burger

and all the rest, but it was basically like we can't really talk because the feds asked us not to. Interesting. Now, we know it was a federal warrant. Maybe the feds said, you know what, this was our warrant. We'd really like to keep quiet on this one.

Let's just not say anything about it. There was just much ado made about the guy in Rio Rico. Didn't go well for us all, so let's just... Also, I've been really, really interested in the ski mask. It's driving me bat shit crazy that there's not more talk about it. Everyone's talking about the backpack, which is a freaking dime a dozen, right?

I think somebody said 100 of them were sold at a Walmart in Arizona, I don't know which one, in a Tucson Walmart. But the bal Clava? You think hundreds of those are sold in Arizona? I got questions. I got questions about Bella Clavas in general.

Who the hell buys these three hole masks? Because I ski. Not a lot of people use those. So I'm gonna ask Maureen a couple of questions. Number one, how is that not the biggest lead they have? Find the purchasers of any of those fucking Bella Clavas So I'm going to ask Maureen a couple of questions. Number one, how is that not the biggest lead they have?

Find the purchasers of any of those fucking Bella Clavas that have the three holes in them because who buys them in Arizona? Couple skiers, maybe, but I doubt it. That's not a big skiing kind of mask, trust me. And then I asked her about just tracking that kind of purchase anyway, not just in this case because who buys those?

A lot of people who use them for no good, right? So should we be tracking those kinds of things? Is that too big brothery? You know, are those tools of crimes just an obvious tool of crimes? You'll be interested to hear what Maureen has to say about that. Also, Michael Ruiz, who's doing killer reporting on the ground for Fox News Digital, had a

really interesting tweet today. Let me read it. He said, we received a tip from an active duty Miami area police officer who believes that he has identified the holster seen in surveillance video on the belt of a masked suspect at Nancy Guthrie's front door. It is sold at Walmart Walmart just like the backpack.

And he holds up a picture, which I'll show you. And then if you want to read his full story about it, just go to FoxNews.com because I thought that was interesting. Nobody's really talked about what holster. Maureen is going to talk about, well, great, but wait till you hear her great but story regarding the holster. I'm also going to

talk to her at length about the blood at the front door because it's been driving me absolutely crazy why there are no drag marks or scuffle marks in that blood. It's sort of cleanly dropped, but no one's struggling, or there's no sign of struggle there. So I'm just really fascinated with what her thoughts would be about that, just based on the amount of crime fighting that she has done. Matt Finn, who's been doing some amazing work on Fox News Channel, he's on the ground in

Tucson. This is what he tweeted earlier today, breaking. Pima County Sheriff Nanoos says to expect police activity every day and gives more details about last night's massive Guthrie Police SWAT activity. Nanos tells Fox the person detained in the traffic stop last night outside Culver's, which we believe involved the grey Range Rover, was a person of interest

who was cooperative and later released. Regarding any other detainees, this is the Sheriff. I'm guessing anyone at the residence was detained, but that is standard procedure to allow investigators serving a search warrant freedom to conduct their search. I was not at the scene and I'm sure people were detained, but no one was arrested and more importantly, no sign of Nancy was found. Looking ahead, another quote from the sheriff here, every day moving forward

there will be a lot of police activity throughout the community. As to what level of activity that is, depends on what lead they chase and how it develops. These leads start in the command post and move to the field as needed. That is one reason you're seeing activity build up as the day goes, as the day goes on and that can ultimately lead to a search warrant looking for Nancy and any suspect involved. So there you go.

That's the official statements. Again, I keep wondering why the sheriff says I will not be giving one-on-one interviews and then boop, he sort of does, kind of like blurts stuff out to certain people. But Night is Young, it's 11-23 on Feb 14, Happy Valentine's Day. Maybe there'll be another raid tonight, I don't know. But we're watching, we're always watching.

And if there are more developments, you know you're going to get them here, as long as you subscribe, because if you subscribe, you will get the developments. So now I want you to hear this conversation I had with Maureen O'Connell. Gosh, she is so effing smart. Clearly the 25 years, there's nothing lost in her experience because she is rock solid on so much of this investigative stuff.

She's a former FBI special agent. She's the host of the podcast, Best Case, Worst Case with with Jim Clemente. I'm going to play that in one second, but a quick note again from my sponsors, because don't forget, independent journalists. So I really appreciate you and I appreciate them. Let's talk about what is really in your makeup, because most of us spend a lot of time worrying about what we eat and what we drink and how we take care of our families, but then we cake our faces with makeup full of chemicals. Chemicals we can't even

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Okay, here's my conversation with Maureen O'Connell. So Maureen, what do you make of the fact that it was a federal warrant that was executed last night? It wasn't a state, it wasn't a sheriff's warrant, it wasn't city, it was the feds.

It doesn't really surprise me because this is a task force situation. And in a task force, especially for a big case where there's a lot of moving parts, since we have the FBI there and a huge contingent of FBI agents and federal agents

and officers, we're going to have an AUSA also. And so that United States attorney from that district will be in a position to help with these warrants. Now, the warrants could be put together as it's happening. So if a data point comes up that they think might lead to a warrant,

it may be the protocol in place right now to start working on a warrant for this person. Or if they have a list and the first seven people might be good for something that they're looking at and they have several data points, they're going to already start with those with those warrants.

So after the raid, or at least, you know, midway through or late into the night, it came out that the Pima County Sheriff was going to give an update and a statement and we all waited with bated breath and then suddenly it was sort of a non-statement at the behest

of the FBI. Did that surprise you? No. Tell me why. Well, you know, God love them. The pressers have just been terrible and they create more questions than answers. You can come out with a succinct statement, which I was actually surprised that at least a statement didn't come out. But I'd actually, I'd rather nothing than than something that's for that's confusing

everyone. Yeah, the it seemed almost terse. And, you know, there's been so much made in the media of the acrimony between the locals and the feds. I've been at this rodeo a lot. This story rises in every single story that there's some sort of butting of heads. And oftentimes I feel like the headlines get away from the actual reality on the ground. What's your read of what things might be like

between the Pima County Sheriff's office and the authorities who are in the local field office, the feds who are in the local field office, and then the folks that have come in from, say, around the country or in D.C.

I think they're all getting along great. Those, the worker bees, the people out there doing it, you notice that when they, when all day yesterday we saw one sheriff's deputy with an FBI agent, that's how we usually do it. And you rely on your partners to whatever the difficult task is at hand, who can do it quicker, who can do it a little bit faster and better. And we're all used to doing that. So I think the relationship is good. I think the big hiccup came when someone in the Bureau found out that a glove was sent to the private lab instead of letting the Bureau do it, when in fact

there was no glove inside that house. And, you know, there's a funny saying that punctuation matters. And my understanding is it was a difference between a comma and no comma in the writing of that communication. So it's kind of like text messages where you see that the funny meme where it's like, wait, you said what? How dare you? And then you realize they didn't mean that at all.

They're driving and voice to text mixed it up or whatever. So I think something like that,

I think that's what happened.

My favorite line in a movie is from my cousin, Vinny. I shot the sheriff with inflection, you're asking a question, but when you see it in print, it says I shot the sheriff. And so people just,

and that's exactly why I asked you that question because I really felt as though, every media outlet, large, small, and otherwise is scrambling for any kind of story they can tell. And I felt like that one just shot out of a cannon and took on a life of its own.

But on the ground, I really felt like, sure, there might've been a snipe here and there, but I just don't think it's endemic.

Right, and I've been in these situations a lot. And I'll be with my sheriff's partner. I've been on task forces, or I'll be with the LAPD or the LA County Sheriff's Department or a local municipal and I'll say something about my boss and they totally agree and vice versa. But we're rolling up our sleeves, we're completely, I'm not saying that the bosses aren't dedicated because everyone here, you can feel the dedication in these people and the drive to bring Nancy home. That's what everybody wants. But some people have a different way of how they want things run. The worker bees were the ones

that were, you know, these guys are out there pushing a black and white. The other people are searching in the desert all night long, all day long in the heat. Some people are down on their hands and knees looking at evidence. Other people have been working 12, 14 hour shifts trying to figure out what vehicles, what devices were in that area at that time. And does that correlate or does it not correlate with the list of people that they're looking at or that they're getting close to, you know? Because if you get three or four data points on one person, that person's getting shot to the

top of the list. And that's a person where that might be enough probable cause to get a warrant. And that's why the early warrant writing, I think might be what's going on with that fed warrant you talked about.

Okay, I won't talk probable cause because that's high on my list today. We had a warrant. Well, I'm not sure if we had a warrant. The language was really unusual. It was a court approved search

In Rio Rico. I thought that might have been exigent circumstances as the US courts say we can break in without a warrant That's my read on what that might have been but we had a search down You know rio rico and then we had a search last night and I wanted to know if probable cause Is a little lower when you got an older woman who's missing and doesn't have her meds as opposed to standard magistrate behavior or late night judge behavior in

getting a warrant. Yes, and an at-risk youth or a baby. When when you know what when you have those images of that guy at that door with a gun strapped on him, and when he dragged Nancy out of there, however he got her out of there, she was bleeding.

Not only does he have a predisposition and a proclivity to violence, but he proved that he was willing to do anything to get her out of that house. And with that type of information and a couple of data points, this car was in that area and it was also over here and someone called the tip line and said, that guy who was down on the list because he was just in the area, but now we hear he has a backpack that looks like that. And someone else called in and said, he's got a mustache. Those data points might just get you the warrant.

Yeah, yeah. But here's what I didn't understand. As Brian was reporting live from the scene in the perimeter, he's counting dozens of federal and state law enforcement vehicles and dozens and dozens of personnel, including bomb squads and SWAT team members

and forensics units, et cetera. And I wondered about the show of force because the guy on the Nest Cam, has his gun pointed at his business. It just did not look like a pro. He didn't look like a dangerous terrorist.

Nobody proved that he's willing to hurt people.

Did we need that many people in the show of force on executing that warrant? That's what I was wondering.

Well, they put it out on the radio. Maybe they put something out along the lines of, hey, if you're in the area, we might need a perimeter. First of all, I would bring in the cavalry just to keep everybody else out of that place, because that would be a hot number to be there and to witness. And as you saw,

they made Brian back up and move out because they have to have a secure perimeter at that time. They don't know what this person is. And for all we know, someone could have said they thought he had explosives or something. I don't know, because the bomb squad rolling out, that had me scratching my head a little bit because I haven't done that a lot.

That's what surprised me as well. I mean, the bomb squad, both nights, and I thought, well, I'm not sure about last night, but I just sort of thought, look, the guy's dangerous to, certainly to Mrs. Guthrie, but it didn't feel like he was the, you know, Sheikh Ramadan or anybody who's gonna

bomb the World Trade Center. I didn't feel like he was that level of danger. I felt like, you know.

Yeah, but if you're demonstrating a complete disregard for human life and wellbeing of innocent, the most innocent, vulnerable members of our society, they're gonna have no problem showing that type of behavior toward law enforcement.

And I do like the idea that the perimeter is important because they have tried to keep so much of this quiet, even towing that Land Rover last night, the Range Rover, and putting yellow paper over the license plate so that people like us couldn't trace it and find out who owned that Range Rover.

Did they have a warrant for that Range Rover?

My only thought is yes, because they said in the Sheriff's comments today that they had executed, I believe he used the term plural. He said a federal court ordered search warrant was executed at a residence in connection.

Warrant was based on a tip of traffic stop was also conducted and a person was questioned but no arrests. Doesn't say anything though about the towing of that Range Rover. And then the privacy screens that were going up.

In my business, it's usually because there's a body. You don't usually put privacy screens up for evidence, do you?

That's like a death shroud that you put up. So I'm wondering, wasn't there, I heard chatter on the scanners about a dead body, but I never heard any follow

up on that. Well, there was a, there was a hot mess of social media about a suicide and a shooting and all of that. And none of it came to bear, certainly for this story, whether that ended up not being related to Nancy Guthrie, but at the moment they thought it might be. I can't tell you that because they're not telling us that in the statement today. But I wanna ask you about a little bit more

about that Florida lab, because you and I talked the other night about that particular Florida lab, and it turned out to be the one that you brought up from Deerfield Beach. What's the name of it again? International DNA International?

I'm not sure. Yeah, I think it was DNA International and they're extraordinary. They've solved, you know, extraordinary crimes. And I think I heard you mention earlier that they specialize in touch DNA.

Is that true?

That's what I understand. My experience with that lab is through a series of double homicides called the Colonial Parkway Murders. That's it. And they were able to solve three double homicides. So six people they've attributed to one person, but he died in 2017, so they can't upload his DNA into CODIS, which I think is strange, but I'm making some phone calls about that.

I feel like they can. I feel like they could exhume that guy, get that DNA, and then upload it and maybe be able to solve many of the unsolved that may be attributed to him.

Right, because we're looking at, there are people that believe that number may not be six people.

It may be as high as 15 more. But this lab, this lab is no joke. I mean, they've done remarkable work. And when you mentioned that you think that they specialize in touch DNA, that also keyed for me because what happened is homicide showed up at Nancy Guthrie's home on Sunday and processed that scene. And obviously with a missing woman, speed was of the essence here.

And they used their regular pipeline and went to that Deerfield Beach lab that they use all the time. FBI's brought in the next day. So it's not as though there was an argument and they'd brought up the FBI.

And from what the sheriff said yesterday and take it forward as word, it is different word on the ground from local FBI, but that they were all okay with it. That the next day, the FBI was fine with that. But the fact that they have this savvy on TouchDNA, maybe that's exactly what the evidence was that they got.

Something that is touch-based.

I think that's exactly what the issue is. I also, there is a hiccup with it though, because that lab doesn't have access to CODIS. They don't have access to our databases. So whatever they come up with is gonna have to either go back to the

sheriff or to the FBI lab to be uploaded into CODIS. Is that a problem? Is that difficult? I don't know if it's a problem. I just, you know... One more leap. One more, one more move, one more chess move. It's, you know, I like keeping things clean if I can. But I can see his point. If he thinks he can get something back in 24 hours and he thinks that the FBI, because the FBI lab oftentimes is notorious

for taking a long time, but not when the president of the United States says, you're gonna get what you want for this entire investigation. That tells me carte blanche, no red tape,

moving forward, here we tape, moving forward.

Here we go.

I think that took a few days though. Certainly on Sunday, they didn't know they were in. Everything's in hindsight so easy, but on Sunday they had a missing woman and they probably knew that she was the mother of a Today Show host.

But much more than that, I think we've learned since. And certainly the president weighed in several days later.

So as I told you that night on our call, I'm a big believer in treating everyone the same way. And even though everyone's like, look at all the resources. Yeah, there's a lot of resources, but I've worked kidnappings with small children

who were very poor, where we poured exactly what you're pouring into this case into that. Our hearts, our souls, missing everything at home, staying extra late, showing up early, sleeping in our cars sometimes. I mean, that's the level of dedication that you get when a vulnerable member of the community is in

trouble. You know, I'm glad you brought that up because I know that, listen, everybody wants Mrs. Guthrie home. I don't think there's anybody out there who doesn't ultimately feel the sadness of this story, not only for Mrs. Guthrie, but her family and everyone's hoping for a resolution where she comes home alive.

But as you get in past now, we're at day 14, we're at the two week mark tonight where she was last seen. Some of the critics will start to come into the conversation and the arena is imbued with those who say, wait a minute, why all these resources for this one woman? What about everybody else?

But you feel differently. It's just maybe that it's very visible that everyone's watching it happen. But in those other cases, there's just as much dedication.

It's just not on the news every night. I'm not saying that it's one-to-one because when you're sending HRT out, that's a whole contingent of tier one operators. They don't show up on a plane, you know, with their duffel bag and a backpack. They come loaded for bear.

Yeah.

But for these several children, I mean, we worked a very long time. One of those children was brought home alive after like a week or so and was being kept in a house by a woman and her family, and they were being paid by these drug dealers to take care of the child until all the negotiations were worked out with the ransom. So we did have one situation where, you know, the child came back alive, but it was after several where the child, children didn't, which just, I mean, when I tell you

it tears you apart, you can't imagine what that does to people.

No, I can't. I can't.

Let alone the family.

And HRT being the hostage rescue team, yeah?

Yeah.

That's also the big federal unit that's come in on this case from above. So I wanted to ask you about these raids and what you think they are the product of. I wondered if they are the product of tips or if they are the product of the gumshoe work

looking into the purchases of the things that we can see. The backpack, that gun holster, but also, hello, a balaclava in Arizona. How many people have ski masks in Arizona?

Good question. I think it's a combination of everything, everything we talked about. The FBI has the analysts and the software and everything that do all the intake, all the intake of the information, all the, any and all data points that you have on any of these people, even if it's just a first name with no last name or last name with no first name. And we try to build up these profiles

as more information comes in, as the other analysts are looking everything up, as we're trying to figure out how many people in this city own vehicles with this color, with this license plate, and with this, and we saw a sticker on the back. I mean, you just can't even imagine

the amount of information flying around one of those data centers.

And I also think AI is gonna help, right? AI is gonna help a lot in this and aggregating so much data and spitting out some analyses, which could take humans hours and hours and days and days and weeks and weeks too.

Yeah, yeah.

AI should help, but those cameras and the data centers that deal with those cameras, those should help also. But a lot of that, it's analog still. It's not gonna, or it's just not gonna be fast like AI.

This is a question that's gonna piss off so many people who are listening right now, watching. My husband and I looked up those balaclavas, right? And you don't, there's not a lot of the three hole, right? The two eyes and a mouth. Many of the balaclavas you buy these days have just an eye, you know, square across the eyes.

So I just kept wondering, what use is that for anybody to purchase? Does anybody track purchases of those kinds of balaclva face coverings? Because it seems to me certainly in the Southern states, there's no need for those other than bad behavior.

Unless they're flying to Utah to ski. I mean, that's something that's not going to be on the list of what we call trip wires. So we have trip wires in the FBI where if someone's buying a lot of fertilizer, we're gonna get a notification, all those kinds of things, anything that could be made into an explosive or things like that.

So that's not on the trip wire.

Is that because it's usually petty crime, it's usually B and E's and convenience store holdups and that kind of thing that the Bella Collab is bought for?

No, I just, because there's just legitimate uses for those masks. I think it's kooky. I think you're up to no good especially if you're buying it around here. I mean right and by the way I'm

a huge skier. I've been skiing since 1969. When you're Canadian you've got to be a good skier. And I'm from Winnipeg. And I can tell you, I almost never see people wearing the three whole balaclavas, almost never in the cold weather.

It's the worst look ever. Yeah. Who wants to wear that thing? You look frightening. You're going to scare the children on the slopes.

Because it's mostly for criminals. That's why I just wondered. You can't buy a bella clava in Arizona without having people look askance for a hot minute. It's likely not for skiing, honestly. Not many of them are on the ski hill, but I digress. I want to ask you about that.

I'm going to make a prediction that that holster was not purchased at Walmart or at an Amazon together with those other items. It just, I bet it's old.

Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting. Who was it today who actually found that holster? Lindsay, who is it?

Do you know?

It was a Fox that was reporting it.

Is it Matt Finn? No. I'm trying to find it in my notes. Michael, is it in my notes? Yeah, here it is.

Okay. No, I'm trying to find it in my notes. Michael Ruiz, is it in my notes? Yeah, here it is, okay.

Well, Michael Ruiz actually identified that gun holster. He was able to, well, they think they have an investigator who was able to identify that gun holster. Will that be helpful as well?

Yes, but it could be very old. You know, it could have belonged to his mother-in-law's great uncle. Who knows?

Could have been stolen too. So the video, clearly this is not the only video. I mean, things happened before and after the things that we saw. And so I wonder what you think about the timing and the release strategy of video. Do you think there's another batch that's gonna be dropped our way to keep the tips coming in

to keep the public interest on the story?

I don't think it's gonna get dropped to the public because that's been nothing but trouble for the case. And the person that we hold most dear in this whole investigation is Nancy and then her children after that. So they're the only people we really feel

we owe information to, but for the sanctity of the case, I wouldn't even do that anymore because unless it's something that, you know, has a really good picture of his face, I would release that portion.

Or some kind of body behavior. There was an investigator from Connecticut who spent 25 years as a police officer and so did his brother. He's also a professional hockey player. So he has lots of skill in body dynamics

and also skill in investigations. And he said to me-

Body slamming.

Body slamming and injuries. And he said he'd heard somewhere that this guy might've had knee surgery. I don't know, but he said he was very interested to see how the guy leaned over to pick up the shrubbery. He couldn't bend his right leg. He had a straight right leg when he bent down. I don't know that that's so odd for somebody who's younger. They might find that very easy

to bend that way, but did it strike you interestingly?

No, I heard everybody saying that. To me, it was more a case of one of two things or both. He had skinny jeans on over his regular pants or something because he was wearing, it looked like double of everything else. He had way too much clothing on.

I think we can all agree with that, and gloves and everything. But I also thought he was high. He looked absolutely high to me.

Tell me about that.

He was calm. His face was completely relaxed. His eyes were relaxed. His hand motions, everything was slow. He bent over in a weird way. He goes over there and just rips out a handful of foliage

and then goes back to the camera. And it just seemed to me that he was high. And I'm not saying that because he was high, he didn't do it because a lot of people that are high commit crimes. So I don't know.

I just thought, and by high, I mean, smoking some weed to calm down before he does this dastardly deed.

What do you make of the theory? I've been trying to work through this. When he brings that vine that he pulls up from the garden, he's got it tightly grabbed in his fist. As everyone says, trying to cover the camera, I have a different feeling about it. Because there's such a narrow opening between the camera and the bracket that it's on. It's literally about the width of a quarter and

you can't get your fingers in there if you're trying to dismount or disconnect. Especially when you have two pair of gloves on. Yeah. Right. When you got the thick gloves on. I'm wondering if he wasn't holding that with the fists in order to get the vine in between there and yank, if that might not be the motion that we're seeing.

Yeah, but that's... he could very well have been doing that, but it's moronic.

Yeah, is it ever? Yeah.

It's a tape.

Yeah, he's got all that clothing, he doesn't have any string on him or anything, or tape, or I mean...

Well, unless the idea is that he absolutely wanted that thing off and thought that he might be able to do it with his own hands and realize it's a little tougher than that. And what my source said was that those cameras were smashed. And I don't know that the vine worked, the cameras,

well, the video that the authorities gave us stopped at that point. But I suspect that may have continued to a point where he got something bigger and stronger and smashed the camera off its mount instead.

What if he manhandled it? It would have come right off. How many times have you or I tried to pull something and then I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't do it. This thing is stuck.

And then my husband just goes up and just manhandles it and it's off and broken, you know? That's what I thought he was doing at the beginning when his hands were sort of, it looked like they were tightening up and gripping at one point. But again, you can't get in between there with your fingers. It's hard to get between the bracket and the camera. And so I just wondered if maybe he thought he could do it.

He realized it's too skinny in there to get your fingers. vine didn't work and then ultimately it was smashed. As my source said, the cameras were smashed.

He may have been high on gambapentin or whatever that is or oxy because that makes you do those

kind of slow, dumb moves, you know? Interesting. Talk to me about the blood drops. I keep going over scenarios in my head and none of them works given the fact that there's no, there's no smears, there's no sign of struggle in the blood drops, there's no footprints, there's no drag marks with the blood.

And I'm trying to figure out what possibly could have happened where Nancy is dropping blood in those patterns

without any struggle at all around her. If she was being dragged out by her under, with him, with his hands under her arms, and she's facing away from him, and he's dragging her, and all of a sudden when they get out the door with the jumbling around, her head turns,

everything that would be in her mouth and her nose would just go to the ground right there. But then we might see drag marks, I don't know, but that rug, that mat that's in front of the door, that absolutely should be taken and should be, it's a little late now,

but it should have been taken to the lab and it should have been examined. And I understand that their initial thought was it was a missing person and they get a lot of these calls and that's a lot of the work that they do is looking for people that have wandered away from their homes. So we can beat them up all we want, but I would have taken that rug for sure.

Oh my god. Could you have dragged marks on that rug? You would have been able to see.

And Michael Rui said that there were glass fragments down below, which might support the theory that the camera was actually smashed. He said that that's what he spotted, which leads me to the number of people who have been in that vestibule on those tiles. Pizza delivery guy, flour deliveries have come there, pool guys have shown up, multiple detectives, several reporters. So yeah, I guess you're right. The rug now, that welcome mat, is it useless? Is some of that forensic evidence now so compromised it's not even useful for analysis level in the prosecution?

I mean, it would be hard to get a lot of that stuff admitted, but I wouldn't, it's not even useful for analysis level in the prosecution.

I mean, it would be hard to get a lot of that stuff admitted, but I wouldn't say it's useless because drag marks are very specific and leave very distinctive marks. And if there are heel, if there are drag marks, like two heels consistent with someone, her weight, it might be a good clue. like two heels consistent with someone, her weight,

you know, it might be a good clue.

You know, the other thing is that my mom is 87 and she- You're lucky.

Very lucky. And she can get cut very, very easily. Her skin's very thin. She can bang up against the table and be bleeding. And it's a lot, right? Cause she's blood thinners as well. And I wondered if maybe Mrs. Guthrie had a small injury and it did produce that sort of

amount of blood, but that she was literally being marched. I mean, because you're not going to really argue with a gun, certainly not at 84. You're not going to argue with a gun. You can be pretty

compliant. If she hit her arm inside the house, they'd have blood inside the house also. It might not be a lot, but based on what we saw outside, it should have been more than it is. That's why I think that whatever it was, was contained in her mouth and sinuses maybe. And when the head turned for whatever reason, it all just poured out into that location. People are also talking about the blood stopping at the end of that stair,

or moving on a little bit forward as we saw in the last couple of days, they were saying that the droplets actually-

Did continue, yeah.

Continued for a little bit, but that could just be a matter of putting a towel or a shirt or pulling something out of that backpack that was packed with God knows what, and placing that over her face so she stops bleeding. Cause the last thing any kidnapper wants

is to bring a person who's bleeding into the vehicle, whatever the vehicle is. Yeah. But that's why I think that there was a tarp or something in that backpack. And I think that guy was probably gonna end up

being hired by somebody to go in and just drag her out and bring her over here or whatever.

I had my thoughts about that being a being a hired gun, that guy.

An unsophisticated one, but we got to give him credit. He got her.

You know, yeah, my source said that there is blood inside the house as well as outside the house. Okay. Yeah, maybe she did hurt herself. And the other thing I can't get past is my source said that the back door was wide open. Some people say wide open for unlocked. Some people say wide open for standing wide open, and I don't know the difference. Yeah, but that's where I'm trying to sort of get my head

around how this crime was committed. I almost wondered if Nancy Guthrie was, you know, out cold asleep at 147 a.m. and that dingle dingle happens on your phone, there's motion at your front door, and she reaches over and looks at it right at the point where all of the foliage is dangling in front of the camera and she's wondering, is that an animal? What is that? Puts the phone down and goes to the front door to open it and take a look. And maybe that's how he got in. I would say no. No? I mean seriously. The first

thing if I were 85 years old and I heard someone at my door, first thing I would call is the police or my daughter or son-in-law if I were her. But if you thought it was an animal because you saw the dangling. I wouldn't care if it was an animal. I wouldn't care if it was a horse. I'm not opening that door. You know, I agree with you, but she was different. I read about her decisions to get the ring or the nest cameras and said that it was less about security and more being able to see animals in the night. Wildlife. I don't know. The only reason that guy

went to the front door was to disable that camera, I think. I think his marching orders were disable the camera because there's no way that guy was getting into that front door. That's a gated door or screen door, what we call a burglar door. And behind it is a very thick wooden, like Spanish style door. I've kicked down doors in my life.

I've been with teams that can breach just about anything. Those are two very difficult doors to get in. So I think he was just disabling the camera and then he went around the back of the house and that was whoever hired him or whatever, whoever, however he got there goes to the back because that door would be a lot easier to break in.

But it begs the question, if they kick that door in, is there a chance that it wouldn't show signs of forced entry? Maybe I don't know, I don't think so. But it hasn't been clarified to us whether or not it was forced entry.

But the truth would be wide open. My source said forced entry and when the sheriff was asked about that he said I'm

not confirming or denying that okay yeah my guess is he went in through the back I don't know you know going into people's houses in the middle of the night is a very high-risk situation because you don't you can't see anything yeah I mean they may have a bag of trash by the door that you're going to trip over. I mean, it's not an easy situation. So he must have had intel or been in there before or something. That's my thought. So he goes in the back and then he gets her and whatever,

but he's been there for 41 minutes. And then he goes to the front because the car's out in front.

And I see, I keep wondering, is the car out front? Because if you're gonna try to stay out of sight, you got a nice place to tuck in at that garage at the back. And there's that little pathway from the garage through to the back door. So if you're gonna, if your plan is to take someone out

live or dead, that is a better and easier way to do it without anybody seeing who might be driving

by. Okay, but we didn't see the tire impressions that would support that. So I would say that the car was in the front, in the circle driveway with its lights off. That it got up to the house, so they drove by a little bit earlier. They didn't have their phones with them or had them completely disabled because even a flip phone would ping off of something. But then I was also talking to a friend of mine that was a national asset on the CAST team for the FBI, the cell phone analysis or computer analysis team. And he was saying that that area is so hard to get in and out of.

And I heard a law enforcement officer describe the roads as almost like spaghetti noodles going all over the place. It's very hard to figure out where you're going. Did they go old fashioned and use a compass or what? Or did they turn another phone on when they got lost a couple blocks away?

I don't know.

Did they know their way?

Or did they know their way that well?

I thought about what you just said. If somebody was using ways to find their direction to Nancy Guthrie's house at that particular time of night, that would be traceable, wouldn't it?

The FBI could get that.

It absolutely would, because it's pinging off everything.

That would absolutely be. So anybody who had to use any kind of directional help, that they could get that. And would they be getting that? They think of that, right? They would be looking for that now, wouldn't they?

Oh, absolutely, 100%. These forensic teams that the Bureau has, they're just magicians. I'm not kidding. They're just unbelievable.

They think of everything.

Speaking of that, Brian Enten reported something so interesting tonight. He said that Signal Sniffer, a Signal Sniffer, I'd never heard of that. It was sent in and was affixed to one of the skids on the helicopter that was circling overhead

while he was doing live shots yesterday afternoon. And Matt Murphy, homicide prosecutor from California, had said to me, I would like to see them take Nancy Guthrie's phone and move it all around the neighborhood because it will reconnect with her pacemaker.

And we looked it up and it's actually 10 to 30 feet. Within 10 to 30 feet, the Bluetooth would reconnect. And so this apparently might've been the effort with the signal sniffer to detect Nancy's pacemaker. I mean, talk about magician work.

It sounds like just a fantastic tool. I would love to see it in action, but again, you've gotta be so close. You'd have to grid that place out in little 10 foot wide, you know, squares, and you're only about 10 or 12, maybe 20 feet off the ground, that's hard with all the big cacti and everything

else. Even the shrubs are taller than that, some of them.

I mean, if you're flying a helo 30 feet above street level, you are nearly chopping off the antennae of the car. It's really close to be 30 feet above street level, isn't it?

Yeah, but it also shows the level of dedication and the risks that people are willing to take to bring this woman home to her family. I mean, I cannot imagine what Savannah and her brother Cameron and her sister Annie are going through. I just can't. I'm surprised we don't find them wandering out in the desert by themselves looking for her, you know?

Yeah, none of us can put ourselves in their shoes. And I often try to think of it, if this were my mother, I don't know what I'd be doing. I honestly can't even imagine it and I don't even want to go there with my mind. It's just so terrible to think of it. Last thing I want to ask you about is the very white roof. Neighbors had pointed out that Mrs. Guthrie's roof was very, very white and in the desert, there's only one reason it would be really white, a hell of a rainstorm that cleaned it off from the desert dust or a recent painting and so i can only assume that any paint contractor

has been looked at and not just recently because i heard from another analyst that sometimes these guys will go back years like they'll think of people they've worked on a year ago and they'll target their victims from work they did a year or two prior.

Yeah, well, you don't wanna target someone whose house you were just at three weeks ago because then you're at the top of the list. You know, if it takes them that long to get down there, but I didn't know that it was that much whiter than every other roof, but it was clean.

It did look very good. I know a lot of people, like, you know, when you're in a fire zone, you always keep your roof clean. That was part of the problem here in California. There was just dried up foliage all over the place.

And they say that you've got to remove that. And I have an uncle who's actually 84, who goes up on his roof to clean his roof and gutters out. Oh my God,

when we find it. But he was an iron worker for, you know. You can't change them. You can't change an iron worker. I said last question and I lied because I actually have two more. Matt Murphy, again, used the phrase DNA is a dirty word. And it means DNA, depending on the source, can be remarkable or can be very average. Touch DNA found in, say, the front hall of Nancy Guthrie's home could be the FedEx guy whose touch DNA was on a package that came into her home

and dropped on the floor.

Semen- Or on the kitchen counter where the grocery delivery guy puts the groceries every single time, right?

But semen and blood, those kinds of things are incredible sources of DNA. But that's why he says DNA is a dirty word. So everybody who's so excited about hearing about this mystery source of DNA, put it in context.

Right.

Or someone else's saliva on her pillowcase, something like that. The whole thing we're doing with these search warrants is trying to tie a person to something within that house. And whenever to walk you through it, like when we're doing a dope warrant or a narcotics warrant, we would go in and we would find, let's say, a bunch of methamphetamine and everything that goes along with it. We're trying to figure out a way, we interview people, whose room is this?

Who stays in this room? Who else does he allow in this room? We try to really tie down the fact that this person was right there. And so those are the things that go through a law enforcement officer's mind when they're walking through houses. And that's that. The other thing I wanted to say to you was, you know, when those officers first showed up, I'd be interesting,

it's going to be very interesting for me to hear how everyone was acting and reacting. According to what we've heard so far, everything they said and did was very appropriate. But they're leading that whole walkthrough. They're saying, well, is your mother's car keys? Are her car keys here? Oh yes, she keeps her car keys over here.

And this is where that is. And every day, this is her iPad. And her iPad always comes with her when she goes here and there, and then she reads it at night every night in bed and they you know so they they're got it's like a tour guide through the house of where everything is where it should be is there anything missing that's going to take a while and and so there was a lot of movement in that regard but that could be overcome

by a good forensics team. Okay last question honestly last question, honestly, last question. We are only 14 days in and, you know, these kinds of cases aren't like television. They're not solved in an hour. In the grand scheme of things, 14 days, people are screaming from the rooftop.

How could we not have found Nancy Guthrie or solved this case yet?

But from a law enforcement officer point of view put that in perspective Well, we have to be patient and and I'm saying that as a person who has no patience when it comes to this stuff I never had patience I have to always slow myself down like I got so excited the other night When they arrest it or they detain one person. And then last night, I just couldn't go to sleep. I couldn't sleep because I thought, oh, please bring her home.

Wouldn't that be a miracle? And then someone said there was an Emmy truck there, which turned out not to be the case. And that this is a roller coaster. And a lot of big investigations are, but this one is one for the ages, and I have never, ever seen, experienced, worked, or even heard of a case like this before.

That's saying a lot.

So we have to have patience. We have to have patience and show grace to these people that are working so hard and pouring everything into this. I mean, you know, there's 14 days that, I'm not saying anyone is complaining about being tired or working too hard,

but I mean, it's 14 days of being away from your family, missing your kids' games, everything, which we understand that's the job, and we do it, and we do it with an open heart. But it just, it does take a toll on you, especially with these roller coaster up and downs, the emotional up and downs and cortisol dumps

and then, you know, and then peak and dump. And it's, it's, it's no wonder we like a glass of wine or a glass of whiskey after work sometimes, you know.

And a God.

Maureen, thank you so much. So there's where we leave it. Another like busy day and a Saturday that we didn't think was gonna be a busy day and yet how many pages of notes? Six, six today.

Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for watching. Please subscribe and remember the truth is not just serious, Please subscribe and remember the truth is not just serious, it's drop dead serious.