How to Think, Build & Grow a Startup - Skills & AI Advantage | Varun Limaye | FO469 Raj Shamani

The more you study, the more unemployed you are. Let's look at unemployment rate. People who don't have a degree, unemployment rate is 3%. People who have a degree, unemployment rate is 30%. IITians who graduated in 2024, unemployment rate is 40%.

What are you saying?

Can you teach somebody how to build stuff? I feel that India requires a Stanford or a Silicon Valley type moment. Whoever went to Stanford, who did they see? They saw Hewlett Packard. So their goal was to make Hewlett Packard. I'm not going to answer that.

The alumni who graduated from Stanford, the companies they built, if you add their value, it becomes the 10th largest country in the world, GDP wise. And I feel like this is shifting in India as well. But how did it made? 100 people start and 82 fail.

No one starts because of that. The first skill that is very important is to choose the right problem to solve. 99% of startups do not fail because of execution. They fail because the problem they are trying to solve is something that nobody cares about.

Second point.

The business should shine. When you are selling a unit of goods, can you earn money on it? If the answer is no, then you should not start that business. What's third? You should know how to launch your product in two weeks. To understand whether this business can be made, only one person can tell you this thing.

Your customer. So you have to take this product to the customer immediately. You don't have to keep working on it. The most important skill if you have to tell somebody. Distribution. Explain. The world is very noisy.

We are living in an economy which is an attention economy. So you have to figure out how you are going to be noticed. You have to do 2-3 things. What is your channel? Through which you want to express your voice. What is your message? You have to choose your message. Thirdly, you have to choose your tone. I feel that a combination of these three things

is something that will either make you a commodity or will make you stand out. Startups are creating more jobs than government. Yes, 1 million white collar jobs are created. Out of that, 15% comes from IT, 40% comes from GCCs, 10% comes from banking, only 5% comes from IT, 40% from GCCs, 10% from banking,

only 5% comes from manufacturing, 3% is government, 7% is others. 15% currently comes from startups. And this percentage, 15%, if you compare this to China and the US, there the numbers are like 70%. And that's why startups. I feel this is the most historic, exciting time to be alive in as a 20 year old.

As an entrepreneur, this is a very exciting time. As somebody who wants to do a job, who has just studied and left, it's a very scary time. When the whole world believes that AI will make jobs disappear, they are saying that more new jobs will come.

He has been a senior product manager at Amazon headquarters in Seattle. Kellogg School of Management is one of the top business schools in the world. He has done his MBA from there. He has built tech solutions in more than 300 districts of India for children who do not have access to traditional resources. And then he co-founded Asia's first startup focused business school

so that India's startups can get world-class leaders. Our guest today is Varun Limai, co-founder of MESA School of Business. In this conversation, we will learn from him how AI will create new jobs, why startups fail and how they can be made successful and why it has become necessary for founders to create content Why startups fail? How can they be made successful? Why is it important for founders to create content in today's world?

Watch this episode till the end and to know more about MESA School of Business, check the link in the description. You run a startup school, right? Yeah. That's the main thing which I found out.

That is, you teach people how to start up. How is that possible? Can you teach? Honestly, tell me. Can you teach somebody how to build startup? Let me try to give you a picture there, right? Why startups?

Let's try to look at, let's look at the job market. At a high level. Right now I am not looking at startups. I am looking at like everything. Every year, 1 million, this is all approximate,

1 million white collar jobs are created.

Okay.

There are 8 to 9 million undergrads who graduate every year. So, already you are seeing the mismatch. 1 million versus 8 to 9 million who are graduating. So, 9 graduates are ready for every job available. 9 graduates are ready with degree every single year.

Now, let's look at this 1 million. 1 million is 10 lakhs. Out of that, 15% comes from IT. I think 40% comes from GCCs, which is Global Capability Centers. So, essentially, if someone hasn't heard about them, they should read about it.

Essentially, there are many foreign companies. They are moving some of their operations to India. And some of these are back-end operations, some of them are research-end operations, some of them research, product or whatever. Right? 40% comes from GCCs. 15% comes from startups currently. Okay.

Which is a large number. I mean, you know, 15% comes from startups. 10% comes from banking. I would say, you know, only 5% comes from manufacturing, 3% is government and then 7% is others and you know, somehow 100% of the start-ups are bigger than governments. Start-ups are bigger than government. So, start-ups currently are 15% of the 1 million that gets added. Now, if you think about it. Start-ups are creating more jobs than government,

Yes,

Then manufacturing, then banking. But I'll tell you what, that is, That data is true. Yeah. Startups are creating more jobs than banks, Startups are creating more jobs than government,

Yes.

More than manufacturing, that's insane. And, and if you, if you think about the pool also, right? 10 years ago, 1-2 lakh people used to work. Today, 20 lakh people work in startups. So, 10 years ago, 1 lakh. Today, 20 lakh. Like that, pretty sick.

Yeah. That growth has been like insane. And this percentage, by the way, 15%, this is less, as compared to some of the other countries. So, if you compare this a China and the US,

there the numbers are like 70%. Like that's the... But see also, I mean, startups is not the right way to look at it because there can be a manufacturing startup also. So let's have that caveat in mind. But a good 10-15% is being created by startups.

Now let me quote a number to you. When I read this, I mean, my mind stopped working. Let's look at unemployment rates.

Okay.

People who don't have a degree, Unemployment rate is 3%. People who, and all of these are official figures. People who have a degree, Unemployment rate is 30%. Okay. IITians who graduated in 2024, unemployment rate is 40%.

What are you saying? You would have intuitively thought that it was the other way around. But you know what this shows? What this shows is that when you get a degree, your expectation of what you should get out of a job, the salary that you should get goes up. And there is no clear data on this.

But essentially, my hypothesis or what I can draw out of this data, which is insane, is that the quality or the payment that people get in white collar jobs is a massive long tail. If you take out the data, I can probably bet on it that out of these 1 million jobs, the number of jobs that will be paying you more than 5 lakh are less than 2%. So less than 20, like less than 20,000 of all the jobs that exist out there. Massive problem.

So, it's very weird. The more you study, the more unemployed you are. And that's because the quality of these jobs in India is very, very, very like substandard. At like at current rates. And now let's look at these jobs also in general, right? A lot of these jobs are back-end roles.

Like if I take out of those 20,000, so I would say that out of those 20,000 also 75% are back-end roles. Where you're not getting to meet the leadership.

You're not getting to meet the leadership, you're not

getting to meet customers, you're doing something repetitive, you can easily be replaced with AI. If we come back, there were 1 million jobs. We cut them down to 5% or 2%. We have removed 75% from that. So, there is nothing left. We are at that stage right now where I feel that if the status quo continues, there are no jobs to compete for. There will be no jobs in the country.

There are none.

And that's why startups. If India has to build a future, which is a strong future, we will need to be driven by startups, we will need to be driven by new ventures. We cannot be relying on the jobs. We cannot be relying on the existing ventures. We need to do something.

The existing companies, existing startups, who are providing jobs. We can't rely on them because it's going to be difficult. But I'll tell you one more change. This is my prediction. And this is something that I keep saying. That India has been an economy which has been driven by the 10 into 1000 model. Basically, we have 10 big companies which give jobs to thousands of people.

Like IT, as I said, at their peak, there were 5 companies that together used to create 2.5 lakh jobs out of this 1 million jobs. This TCS, Wipro, Infosys. So we were like these large conglomerates. 10, right? I feel that this equation is going to flip completely. Jobs, I genuinely feel that jobs

are not going to be lost and we'll come to that later on. I am taking a, you know, counterpoint of view on jobs. I think new jobs will come. But... Maybe like 10,000 people will give jobs to 100,000 people instead of that 100 companies. I think rather than 10 into 1000, 10,000 jobs,

I think it will be 1000 into 10. There will be 1000 companies that will employ 10 people each. And there will be 10,000 jobs. But the point is, the first 10 entrepreneurs were 10, now they will have to be 1000.

The first employees were 1000, now they will have to be 1000. The first employees were 1000. Now they will have to be 10. This means that 10 will have to work for 1000 people. So, the whole of Skills Land is going to change. And for me, this is not a doomsday scenario. I feel this is the most historic, exciting time to be alive in as a 20-year-old.

Why?

Yeah, it's scary. The things I've studied for 14, 15, 16, 20 years, their value is shit. I'm going to the trash. The hope I get out of learning today, I realize that your skill is not valuable at all.

You've learned software engineering in such a short time,

now you are able to make a computer. Then you made a brand with so much difficulty and got a degree.

Okay?

Big companies are saying,

we don't need these degrees and this value, we need something else.

Like, it's just left, right, center, value is zero, so it's a very scary scenario for me. As an entrepreneur, this is a very exciting time.

Yeah.

As somebody who wants to do a job, who has just graduated from studies,

it's a very scary time.

What I think is, look, the situation was the same 10 years ago. It was the same 5 years ago. I'll tell you why I think this is an exciting time. Even for job seekers. Okay. They will have to work hard.

They had to work hard before, and they will have to do it now. You will have to learn AI skills. You will have to learn a different type of way of working. But I find it an exciting time because the kind of jobs that are going to be more exciting. Like I was telling you, that these 1 million jobs, out of those, I feel that the back-end roles were so many.

And back-end roles, you know, they suck the human out of you. During the four years, if you are in a company in a back-end role, where you are doing only one thing, you are faceless,

you know, your desire goes away. I feel like it is going to be replaced. Because this equation that I was telling you earlier, that you will work in a small company, you will have massive ownership, you will have to know how to do sales, you will have to talk to customers every day, you will have to make agents every day, you will have to talk to customers every day. You will have to make agents every day. You will have to talk to the founder every day and decide the strategy.

Everyone has to do this. Because you are visible. You can't hide. You can't hide anywhere. And I feel that a lot of people who are just getting wasted but had a lot talent, will suddenly be able to deliver. So, at the end of the day, what is GDP? GDP is number of people into productivity per person.

So, if our productivity increases because of that, it might be a minor shock where, you know, we were the backend office of the world. Now suddenly we ourselves were a backend office and now we are saying we will become a front end office. So, suddenly, we ourselves were a back-end office and now we are saying we will become a front-end office. So, obviously, there will be a little delta where you will have to survive the pain.

You will have to learn new skills. But that is why it's an exciting time. And MNCs are going to be beaten by startups. And this is my hot take. We will talk on this. but before we do that, because we're talking about jobs,

guys, if you feel like you're not getting a job anywhere, please join us.

Same.

Please apply to Mesa. We are always hiring. Always hiring. If you have the capabilities to break, whether you're a writer or a developer, developer, techie, engineer, whatever you are, you are just a YouTube manager, social media manager,

you are just a content writer, whatever you are. If you can turn up every day, have the right energy, have the right attitude, join us either. You have this ability to learn.

We will teach you.

We don't care if you are an engineer or not.

Exactly.

You were saying that you will create more startup jobs than MNCs. That's your take. Why? I mean that's one take. My other take is that a lot of MNCs are going to shut shop because of startups.

MNCs will shut down because of startups. Yes. And I'll tell you like three reasons. I'll tell you like three reasons. Because... MSEs won't buy start-ups. It's possible. And we'll look at some examples also.

For example, there's a book called The Innovator's Dilemma. It's a very good concept. So, Innovator's Dilemma is essentially... I'm sure people must have read about it. It essentially means that... Suppose you are running a business.

And 80% of your business comes from a revenue line A. If the world is changing rapidly and you have to do B for A, then you face a massive dilemma. And the dilemma that you face is that, my 80% revenue, I am such a big company, my 80% revenue is coming from A.

Now I can see with my own eyes that A is going to become B. But how do I stop this thing? And startups, they come with no baggage, no hangover. They have no revenue. They come and say, let's make B.

And that leads to massive disruption. Let me give you an example. their revenue. They come and say, let's make a B.

And that leads to massive disruption. Let me give you an example. Kodak. People must have heard the story of Kodak. How was Kodak? They used to sell physical cameras. Their business model was that they don't make money from the camera, they make money from the film.

There was an intern in them. He said, sir, the world is becoming digital. We have so many capabilities. We should make a digital camera. They said, intern, our 80% revenue comes from the film.

If I make it digital, then my revenue will go. They did not do it. Kodak, gone. Right. Digital cameras, then phone cameras took over.

Finish.

Best example is Blockbuster and Netflix. What a story!

Tell me.

So, Netflix also started. They used to do DVD rentals. Netflix went on the, you know, it will be online. So, they launched it online. There was no massive traction. They were almost about to die as a company.

When Reed Hastings, the CEO, went to the Blockbuster CEO that we have this online capability. You can buy Netflix for 50 million dollars. You can buy Netflix for 50 million dollars. Blockbuster CEO said, Why would I go online?

Because 80% of my revenue comes from late fees. Basically, when you buy DVDs, you pay late because you are sleeping or whatever. The fees that you get from that, that was 80% of Blockbuster's revenue. He said, why would I do this? This is the most useless transaction that I am ever going to do. 10 years later, Netflix has bought Blockbuster.

And I don't even know like what, where Blockbuster went. It completely went bankrupt. So, innovators dilemma is very real. Where I feel that a lot of MNCs, they have this huge ship. If they want to change the direction, they will have to take 10 approvals. Will not be able to turn their ships in a manner where they know that the tsunami is

coming, that customer support is going to change from what we have right now to voice

with AI.

There are four people in the startup. They have opened the cursor and cloud code. They have made it. There is a discussion here that should we launch it or not. Cannibalization will happen. Cannibalization is basically you start one thing which starts reducing the revenue of the other.

Then the P&L head of that organization, who is very powerful in that organization because he has 80% P&L. He says, don't do this. The CEO listens to him. This happens and has happened over and over again.

And it's bound to happen this time. Every time there's a step jump that happens in technology, many MNCs, many industries, you know, shut shop. And this happens. And AI is probably the biggest step jump. Let's be very real about everything that's happening. So, that's one. Second is speed. In an environment like, you know, in an environment where we are right now,

where AI is changing the pace, three months things are changing, right? The people who are rewarded the most, see, nobody knows what's going to work. Nobody knows. MNCs don't know, startups don't know. So, it's a discovery phase. During a discovery phase, the company that wins is the one that does the most amount of experiments. Simple. Agreed. MNCs will not be able to do that.

Like the number of experiments that a startup can do. Like today, they launched it yesterday. Okay. Now, the big MNCs will say, No, look, we have a launch checklist to launch. You know, we have a brand to maintain.

So, if there is an Amazon, they can't launch a shitty product. Startup has nothing to lose, man. They launch a shitty product, they will launch it, customers will abuse it. But then, when they abuse it, that startup will discover something that Amazon has not. Amazon is like, wait, wait.

Make the product better. Amazon has a brand to maintain. Amazon has a brand to maintain. So, speed will matter a lot and startups will be able to do that. The third, which is according to me the most important one is talent. Today's talent does not want to be, even if they are paid more, don't want to be in slow moving hierarchical ships.

They want to be in high ownership. They want speed. They launched something today, they launched something yesterday, they went to the market, something else happened.

They need speed. So, the best people, if you see,

the best people are not choosing to be in the large ship.

They are choosing to be in the small boats.

So, I feel that this combination of innovation, like innovator's dilemma, talent and speed is going to make sure that there are massive disruptions that happen in the world. And see, I mean, my definition of startup is anything that starts up. I mean, this definition is very loose in the world. According to me, family business is also a startup. Why not? If you make money from VC, then only you are a startup? Not at all.

So, I feel that any company that starts today, what type of videos are they watching? They are watching Y Combinator videos. They are learning Agile product development. So, every new company that starts today is a startup. I feel that India requires a Stanford or a Silicon Valley type moment. Do you know the story of like how Silicon Valley became Silicon Valley? So in 1930s,

Stanford was a regular university. Nothing special about it. California was known as a barn, like beautiful barn where fruits used to come. And you know, that's it. That's what California was known for in 1930s.

Farmers. Yes, I mean, there were a lot of farmlands and greenery. Enjoy. Stanford was a very regular university doing regular research. There was a man named Frederick Terman. Who is known as the father of the Silicon Valley. Right. What did he do?

So, he was visiting California. Fell sick. And he was from MIT and he was visiting California. He fell sick. He was teaching at Stanford. He was doing a guest lecture. And as it turns out, that sickness made Silicon Valley. So he fell sick. Because he fell sick, for one year he could not move out of California.

He fell in love with California. He said, I will do whatever I want here. He joined Stanford as a computer science teacher. When he joined Stanford, his biggest frustration was that I am teaching kids and they are going to East Coast to get jobs. There were big companies on the East Coast.

MIT was East Coast. General Electric, GE was on the East Coast. So, his biggest frustration was that people were teaching and then they were going for jobs. So, he said, I am going to stop teaching and I am going to teach only one cohort. And he was a very famous computer science teacher in Stanford.

And he said, I'm going to take only 60 students. And people were like, but the demand is very large. And he said that I'm going to do something which is going to reduce the demand. He said, these people need to sign a waiver that once they've taken my computer science course, and have graduated as an engineer, they will not take up a job for the next five years

and will instead build a venture. Okay?

Nice.

He said this. 60's cohort, I mean, 58 students came to him while being a student. Okay? He started working with these students. His first cohort

included two people called Bill Hewlett and David Packard. And essentially these were people who ended up building Hewlett Packard. HP. HP which was the first first original startup in Silicon Valley. The garage where Hewlett Packard was made is still called the 538 garage. Because 538 is basically the number of dollars that were given as angel investment by Silicon Valley and Frederick Terman to Hewlett Packard. Now, not only this.

There were other things that he started doing. One was, when Hewlett Packard started, he knew that if Hewlett Packard did not grow, his flywheel, he needs to attract really good people into these 60 people, would not get completed. So, he used his influence to get the government and some of the large institutions in the country to buy stuff from this startup, which was Hewlett Packard. And the first thing that Hewlett Packard made was something called

audio oscillators. I really don't know what they do. I'm assuming some audio equipment will be there. And the first purchaser of audio oscillators was Disney. So Disney bought eight audio oscillators from Hewlett-Packard. So you're understanding it's an entire village coming together to build something of value for an entire country. Right? That's when the flywheel started. So Fairchild Semiconductors, Intel, all of these came, started coming from Stanford.

Then he started another scheme. Where he started something called Stanford Research Park. Right next to Stanford. And he started inviting startups from across the country. You get incubated here. I will keep giving you talent.

For research. One very good thing that helped them was great weather. So, East Coast was like very cold. West Coast was very cold. They started coming to California. It's not that cold. It's between 16 degrees to 24 degrees. And that's how Silicon Valley started growing where the talent used to,

rather than going for companies, used to work for Stanford Research Park. Whoever used to go to Stanford, what was their goal? Who did they see? They saw Hewlett-Packard. So their goal was to become Hewlett-Packard. I'm not going to do a job now.

And I feel like this is shifting in India too. Now today, if you look at Stanford's impact, I was reading this somewhere, the alumni who have graduated from Stanford, the companies they have built, if you add their value, it becomes the 10th largest country in the world GDP wise. Which top companies? Give me an example.

I mean, Google. I mean, that in itself. Apple also. Apple sort of. Apple is actually, you know. But he left it. He was in Stanford.

He wasn't in Stanford. He never studied in Stanford. He took a course in Stanford. Yeah, he only gave a convocation speech at Stanford. Are you sure? Yeah, he was from Reed College. Okay. Steve Jobs. But, but you know, a lot of engineers, like Apple was Cupertino, right?

A lot of engineers were from Stanford, were from Berkeley. Right? So... A lot of engineers were from Stanford, were from Berkeley. Uh, right. So in this movie he's shown working in Stanford. Um, I don't think so. So he, so he was in Oregon, Jaan pe read college tha, Jaan pe wo calligraphy ka wo sab class le da. So Steve Jobs was actually not a pedigreed person at all. Like he did not have, that's a great story. Koi't have any brand. But he ended up giving the convocation speech in like Stanford.

So there are massive companies that have come out of Stanford. And you know, the list goes on. And I think India needs a Stanford moment. I think it needs somebody to put a foot down and say that youngsters today need to build. Do you think IIT Delhi is doing in some sort? Because at least people are getting inspired by the fact that their alumni, their seniors have created wealth for the country in a very crazy way.

I think there's Flipkart, there's Zomato. These are like great big examples. Now Mishu as well.

Yeah.

Right.

All of them are hostels as far as I know. Yeah. So I T Delhi bits Bellani is also doing a very good job. They've got incubators. They're trying their level best, but I feel that I T Delhi has a branding problem in the sense that I feel that their brand for getting great jobs is so high that I feel that it's still attracting people who want to do jobs.

But I think it's changing. Like I'm pretty sure that if you were to go to the IIT Delhi campus today and ask them how many of you will eventually want to do a startup? I think 80% of the people will say. A large number will say. 80% but kids will say. Because Sachin, Dipinder, they've become the poster boys in the country. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what I feel. I feel that there need to be enough universities that are born. And I feel that India's Stanford as a tag is up for the grabs.

I don't think that that tag exists right now. Because I think there's an ecosystem that you need to build. Like there's a Stanford Research Park that was built on the side of Stanford. All of this has to happen for that to be built. Would you do it for your students? That someone made a startup for your students.

And then because you are connected with, let's say, all the top startups in the country, will you try to bat for their founders and be like, buy from them? Yes, yes.

By using your influence.

That's the cold start problem. To solve the cold start problem, we will do whatever we want to do for our kids. Like I said, like there was a Hewlett Packard for Stanford. We are trying to create our own Hewlett Packards. And people who are wanting to build, we will get behind them and figure out some way. If you have a good product, you will try to sell it to everybody.

Yeah, yeah. No matter what. and figure out some way. If you have a good product, you will try to sell it to everybody. Yeah. No matter what. Like, all is fair in love, war and startups. I feel that it's actually exciting times for... So, let's say this is exciting times and we established that make a startup or develop your own skills

with which you will break. And this time

won't affect you as much as it will affect others.

What should it be? How do we someone has learned these 7-8 things. Where they don't have to worry about

maybe job going, maybe even starting a start. Do you think that learning these basic skills is, is it going to be different in jobs and startup or is it going to be the same skills? Like if someone has learned some basic skills, then he can start a startup and he can do a job and he can break everywhere. Do you think that's the case or this like different skills? No, no. So I feel that it was different before. If you are becoming an entrepreneur and if you are working in a company which has

10,000 people, fundamentally different skills. Yeah. But if you are a founder and if you are amongst the first 10 members in a startup, then there is no difference. I think first 50 maybe same. Same. That's how much ownership you have. But how do you make it? The point is, how do I make a startup

which is successful? Because 82% of first time founders fail. Wonderful.

Yeah.

Right? So they're only like handful. 100 people start, 82 fail. No one starts because of that. Correct. And I think the biggest question is,

startups are risky. If they are risky, then why should you start a startup? See firstly, when you told me about the stat, you told me about the stat of first-time founders. Being successful for first-time founders, even 18% is a large number. But if you can through that process build the muscle to be able to do certain things and keep on starting things, I am pretty sure that every single person by the 10th attempt

will be able to build at least one thing of value. But no one has that much of a question, right? How will he get the money? How will he do it? How will he do the time? And I think... So, I feel that this objection that you have, that we don't have that much time and money. I don't think you need that much time or money to attempt 10 times.

I don't think that is required in today's world. I feel that in today's world, if you want to experiment, and I've moved here. We looked at the, and it ties back to a pellic question to a pollution of key. Yeah, I'm coming to see go be startup banana sick.

I'll sit there.

Mojahed, I said, look, there are good fundamentals here. It's good that there is luck. It's good that I've come on here. It's good that will need to work. But I feel that at least 40 to 50 percent of the journey can be controlled.

I feel that the 40 to 50 percent of the journey are almost hard skills that you can learn to make yourself successful. And I feel that people are not doing this. And if they know 6-7 things and do it again and again, then their percentage chances of being successful will go up a lot. Tell me, what are the skills,

the 6-7 skills, which would increase my chances of becoming a successful startup founder? So, let's start off first. I think the first skill which is very important is to choose the right problem to solve. Give me an example. Elaborate. So, I think that you will also talk to budding founders.

You will talk to young founders. I think that people are focusing more on solution or product. So if you tell someone that what are you making? I am making a brand of slippers. People say like this. People say like this.

Actually, you are not making a brand for sandals. People say that. People say that. Actually, you're not making a brand for sandals. You're solving this problem that when I'm walking on the ground, I feel like a pebble. That's the problem. And fundamentally, what else can I do? If I learn the problem first, then I can make a jetpack. I can put it on my back so that I don't have to keep my feet on the ground.

I don't have to keep my feet on the ground. I can fly. So I feel that when you switch from a product to a problem, your chances of actually being successful and actually building something from scratch increases a lot. Because if you fundamentally think,

to make money, you have to do two things. You have to create value. And you have to capture value. Okay. This is taught in business schools as well. How do you create value? By solving problems for customers,

which are not currently solved. You cannot create value by giving them a solution. Because if you give them a solution and they don't have a problem, then? Like there is a quote, 99% of startups do not fail because of execution. They fail because the problem they are trying to solve is something that nobody cares about.

Nobody cares about that problem. Can I give you an example? When Covid happened, a lot of startups were launched. Extracurricular, online extracurriculars for kids.

Okay?

If you go and talk to any founder, then what are you making? We are creating an online marketplace of extracurricular activities. And you know, people can come on it. They can contribute to it. It's going to be a, you know,

online, we are making our LMS, we are making a learning management system. We will give great experiences. All the startups have shut down. Shall I tell you why they have shut down? Because what is the job to be done of extracurriculars? The job of extracurriculars... I have a two-year-old daughter. If I say that the job of fundamental extracurriculars is to be done, then there are two things. The child should go out of the house, so that the parents get some time without the child.

This is the truth. Okay? Parents, they need some time with each other. They need some time away from the kids. And it was a way to engage the child. It was a way to keep the children engaged in a good activity,

where they are learning something, plus they are outside the home. That was a very important part. Now, as the world went from COVID to non-COVID, all the children, and the second thing was that their customers were not actually children, they were actually parents. Because parents were deciding. The other thing was that their customers were not kids. They were actually parents.

Because parents were deciding. So, as soon as the COVID ended, parents said, we want the kid out of the house.

Send him out.

Send him out. Because the kid is inside the house due to COVID. There are fights in the house. There is a fight. Send him out. So, everything got shut down. The thing was that,

if they had thought of the problem backwards, they would have thought that the job to be done for parents, the problem is that how to keep the children meaningfully engaged and get them out of the house.

This was the problem. And you will never be able to do this with online. You will never be able to do this. And there are a few startups who have survived. I think only one or two that have survived. Which focus on skills which have nothing to do with social environments.

It can be writing or something else. But all the other startups... They shut down. They shut down. Give me an example. Let's say, if you want to watch a podcast like this, what do you think, what problem are we solving?

Instead of saying, let's say, we are making a podcast, what problem are we solving? So I will tell you in two ways. I think you have two types of podcasts. One is with Dipinder Goel. And the other is with less known founders like me. I think both have different job to be done.

When you are doing a podcast with Dipinder Goel, the job to be done of the viewer is almost being in a room with a person that they can never be with, which is Dipinder Goel. You are sitting, you are telling him, what do you do in Zoom Atom?

It's almost as if you are sitting and the third person is sitting here on the side. And is having a conversation. So, they are getting insights into the lives of people that they would have never gotten to interact with. I mean, they never got a chance to talk to Deepinder in that depth. Nor did they get a chance to know him.

They are getting that chance. This is the biggest job to be done. It's almost as if he has to become that third person in a room... ...in a room where he will never get access. So, if you think about it... ...I feel that there are many podcasts where people are chilling.

Like the big people, if we look at the WTF podcast also, I think it works only because of that. That room is such a chill room where people are eating. You feel like you are sitting there. When you are cooking food, the WTF episode is going on. Or your 4-hour episode is also going on.

So, it's like, so that's one.

Second is very quick value add.

they will come to know that can I learn something in one and a half hour

which is more practical.

Where Raj has asked such questions, because I follow Raj. I know that Raj will find a way to find something. So, can I learn something that this person will never tell me if he talks to me alone? So, this is my job to be done. If you make a podcast where we both are sitting and talking. Hey Raj, it's nice to meet you. No one will watch it. We are sitting and talking. Hey Raj, it's nice to meet you. No one will see that. We were sitting and chilling, enjoying coffee.

Then people started thinking that we are in that room. So I feel that you can see everything problem first. Because we do problem first a lot. Yeah. For me, podcast is Problem First. What do you think?

It's very simple. I'm solving my problem and people like me are solving their problems. The simple is, I'm growing in life. My health,

my wealth, my relationships and what's going on in my country. Hmm. If all this happens, my mind is good, I am better, I grow. Now, how can I grow in the shortest time possible? This is what I want to focus on. So what we do is, we sit with the top 1% people in the world

so that they can teach us something so that when I go home, I feel like or when I sit after listening, I feel like I learned something extra today that was fun. Sometimes it can just be about mindset. Sometimes it can be about hardcore practical insight. Sometimes it can just be about my health.

If I add this, it will be like this. Anything. But just say for example, we're building this whole every podcast if you see is just personal growth related. If there is no personal growth, no one is learning anything, then we don't put a podcast. The whole idea is education. That's why our podcast is not entertaining.

No one does entertainment. Some people do it for fun, but it's not designed for entertainment or making you feel like, Oh, I had fun today.

No fun.

Learned or not, tell me. Yeah. Correct. In fact, I would... If you watch this podcast and you say, I had a lot of fun, I will feel bad that what the f**k I did.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's how we think. So, first is problem first. Problem first. You think... And there can be a formula for this. You can put a simple formula. Your problem that you have identified...

Ideally, it should be a problem that you have faced. Because otherwise, you won't be able to understand the problem. Then you can do an estimate of how many people face this problem. How frequently do they face it? And what is the intensity of it? Multiply it.

I mean, it doesn't have any units. But take it in spirit. The number of people into how many times they face that problem. And what is its intensity? If you understand, few people face this problem. It happens once a year.

And when it happens, still... Yes, I mean... It happens, but it's not like, people keep talking about it. They keep talking about it. It's not like that.

So, if you make a solution, then neither will the customer pay for it, if he pays, he will not do more. And there will not be enough people who will buy your product.

True.

So fundamentally, you just have to choose whether this problem is big enough. And for that big enough, you can use this formula. And look, I mean,, we have said this thing. But I can tell you that this is probably the hardest thing to figure out. Which problem should I solve? And I feel that if after this podcast, everyone who has watched this podcast,

you know, starts noticing problems around them that they were not earlier, starts applying this formula to that problem, then I think it's success. Because that mindset comes, that, oh man, it's too hot. There is a problem. What is it? I can solve it. Is the problem already solved?

What is the best alternative? Has technology moved to such a point that I can make such an alternative that this problem doesn't exist? So when people think like this, they are much more designed to become successful entrepreneurs.

Because at the end of the day, any successful entrepreneur picks a big problem and solves it. There's a nuance to it which I learned from Jeff Bezos, which I really admire. Maybe I see some problem first, but then everything changes in a few days. So, it's like, this is changing. So, my problem, today's problem, will remain or not?

Next day, today I made a solution. I worked hard and made something good. But then, it changed after 4 years. It changed after 2 years. Someone else made it. The competition came. Like it is always... Constantly, you are not able to keep up with the innovation. Yeah.

Because you don't know how deep the problem is getting and how fast it will change and whether it's a good problem to be solved or not. And what I feel which I follow this principle a lot, that Jeff Bezos says, whenever you solve a problem or talk to a company, then ask, what are the problems of my customer that will remain the same after after 10 years. Yeah.

Don't try to solve any such problem, which you think will change after 2 years, there will be no problem here. Correct. So, ask yourself a question, which are the 2 or 3 things that the customer's problem will never be solved. Correct.

And then try to achieve that. If you make a business with its principles, then you're going to thrive. And somebody was asking, how is Amazon? He said, the simple thing is, you were in Amazon,

so you would know this. The customer wants their stuff fast, the customer wants it on less money, and the customer wants a big variety. So, the customer will never feel that the variety is too much.

Nor will will feel that it's too much. Nor will he feel that it's only 10 minutes left. No, no, it's 2 minutes left. Nor will the customer feel that I want it in expensive. These 3 problems are always going to be there forever. So, you optimize for that and just keep optimizing. So, it just... I think it's crazy inside. And you know, it's mad.

I can tell you that Amazon is a good and a bad thing. But working in Amazon is like working in a cult. I mean, I'm telling you seriously. Like, when I used to work for Amazon, there were 14 leadership principles.

Okay?

Now it's probably 16 or 17. 2-3 more have been added. By doing sustainability, something has been added. Your interview. Okay? How did it happen?

If I'm interviewing for product management, then their 8 leadership principles will be divided into 4 people. They will test me on 2 leadership principles. And I tell you that their leadership round does not have any problem solving. You know, the questions are also predictable. For example, customer obsession is a leadership principle.

Bias for action is a leadership principle. You know, judgment is a leadership principle. I have forgotten a little bit now. Not a true Amazonian.

But...

Not anymore.

Not anymore. But there are many like this. I am forgetting a little bit now. But you know, having backbone is a... You know, one of my favorite leadership principles was... Disagree but commit.

Which basically means that if there is a fight in the room, you can disagree but when you go out of the room, you have to commit. So, right from hiring, you are asked only one question. Tell me about a time you showed customer obsession. So, there are eight leadership principles that you have to use the most in PMing.

PMing is product management. So, they will ask you the same question. Tell me about a time you showed customer obsession. When I tell that story, they will go so deep into it that you tell me who the customer was. No, no, but was he really a customer?

Did you meet the customer? What did the customer say? What was his behavior? He really wants to know that are you obsessed about customers? Now, this is one thing. When you have quarterly or yearly appraisals, you are rated on these leadership principles.

In meetings, I have heard where people are saying that Varun, you are not showing customer obsession. They are quoting this. Meaning, they are quoting inside. They are quoting in meetings. Let me tell you, in my Seattle,

when I used to work in a team, this is not made up, in our meeting room, a chair was kept empty. And boss used to say, that the customer is sitting here, understand like this.

So, during the meeting, you can't say anything that will piss off the customer. So, this customer backwards thinking, I have learned it single-handedly from Amazon. If you want to pitch any idea in Amazon, you have to write a document called PR FAQ.

I think everyone knows this, press release and FAQ. But the main concept about it is that entire document is about if you launch this product, how will the customers talk about it? That's it. This is that document. And I tell you, writing this is the biggest learning experience that I had. I used to think that a document ofpage document can't be more than that.

So, I will fill 6 pages. I have come from an Indian education system. I know how to write. But when you write, there is a saying, it stays written. Once you write, you have commented. But what happens is that you hesitate.

Then you start asking questions like, is this actually true? And that's why even today, when I'm launching a new program in MESA, I first will spend half a day writing a PR FAQ about it. I mean, it's so internalized in me that until I write that PR FAQ, I can't imagine a program. I can't imagine a new launch. And I think that is just incredible how Jeff Bezos has been able to do it with a company with just 1 million employees.

That is insane. Yeah, it's insane. Every time I talk to some Amazon leader, I'm just, even just an Amazon employee or read anything about Jeff. One of my favorite entrepreneurs is Jeff Bezos. Have you met him by any chance? I'm just dying to meet him.

Like he's my out of all the people you talk about that are greatest of the greatest entrepreneurs. For me maybe because I've read about him so much and seen a lot of him and then you know that's I think I'm just obsessed with it. Okay, so problem first. Second point. Business should shine. I think analytically, I make equations. And the most important equation for business, whatever business you are making, whether it's a shoe maker or

someone else's, you should consider it as a unit economic. Everything else is fine. When you are selling a unit of goods, will you ever be able to earn money on it? If this answer is no, then you shouldn't start that business. And that is 80% of the times true. Right?

So, it allows you to like say no to a lot of ideas. For example, let's come back to say quick commerce. Because so many people are kind of talking about quick commerce. There are a few metrics that everyone keeps talking about in quick commerce. Now, before naming them, let's try to understand how their unit economics are. So if you look at a dark store level, then you are getting some orders,

you are getting a number of orders, you are making some margin money per order, minus you have to pay rent, minus you are getting wastage, minus manpower, minus utilities. According to me, this is the equation. According to me, Blinkit, Zepto and everyone else knows this equation. Now let's break it down. So, what we said is, number of orders into margin,

minus rent, minus utilities, manpower, minus wastage. First, let's understand which of these things we can control. Can we do wastage can we do? We can do some supply chain operations. But I think it will already happen. We won't be able to do anything in it.

If there is so much data, Suppose you and I become employees there. Or we are starting a start-up, which is a start-up of quick commerce. We will hire someone from Blinkit or from here. We will tell them to put their supply chain. So that their wastage is not less than this.

We cannot control rent and utilities. We are at the deepest place. That's why if you see, many dark stores live in such places. Where rent is the lowest. That's why they are called dark stores. Right?

So, I will take it at a place where it is accessible. But it is so small that the rent there is very low. I will do whatever I can for manpower. But how much can I move? I have two options. Which is number of orders or margin.

Let's go deeper into each one of them. What is number of orders? If there is a dark store, there is a radius around it. In which you can deliver for 10 minutes. All the customers in it, assume that it is your X number. Or 100,000 customers, you have 1 lakh customers.

You cannot do 1 lakh x 1 lakh x 10,000 because the rider can drive at the same speed. So, that radius is set. So, your number of orders are actually this into penetration percentage. How many percentage people are using your app out of this, into how many times a day they are ordering your service. Right. So we broke this.

That the number of orders is the number of people into penetration percentage into how many times a day he is placing the order. Similarly, what we did in front of percentage margin, percentage margin is basically AOV, average order value, into what deal you have striked with brands. Like if with Whole Truth, their take rate will be low,

because Whole Truth now is a brand and commands, but with small brands, their take rate will be less because Whole Truth now is a brand and commands. But the small brands will have a higher take rate because they are doing the brands a favor. So, one take rate is done. So, AOV into take rate is done. Minus delivery costs and minus packaging is done. Now, let's break it down again. So, if we said, margin per order.

Can we change the packaging? No. That's already basic. Can we change the delivery cost? We can't do it for now. Right? So, AOV and take rate is left.

What can we do with take rate? I mean, now there is such an intense competition. That there is a fight for brands. So, there will be pressure on take rate. We cannot do anything. There is such an intense competition going on. That there is a fight for brands. So, there will be pressure on take rate. We cannot do anything.

AOV can be changed. Right? Similarly, if we come to the other side, on the number of orders. So, there is a number of people. Can it be changed?

No, because the radius will be the same. Percentage penetration, I feel that after so many ads, whoever had to buy from you is already buying. We can't increase that penetration anymore. But the number of times that they are ordering, you can increase that. You can increase the repeat rate.

So, now, the whole unit economics equation lies upon two things that QuickCommerce needs to solve for them to be successful at a dark store level which is AOV and repeat rate and that's why you will see key quick commerce may these are the two things that are always quoted keep link it gagas we giga gaga Zepto gag I think the age of ability Anna key hum log a business school a who's K this. Understand which levers are available. Now, for example, if drone delivery comes tomorrow.

The equation will not change. The equation will remain the same. But what will change? I feel that if your radius increases, the number of people that can be serviced by a dark store will increase. So, your number of orders will increase automatically.

Because you can deliver to more people. Maybe your delivery cost will increase in the beginning because the technology is a new technology. There will be failure, drones will fall, whatever. But at the same time, because the number of orders has gone up, you will be able to kind of, you know, match that.

So, just an example. Now we can take another example that why does QuickCommerce not work in tier 2 and tier 3?

It doesn't work because within that 10 minute delivery, the population density is very less.

So, the number of orders are less. So, the number of orders are not enough to justify the costs that happen at a dark store level. So, we have gone into this lot of detail in QuickCommerce. I am not saying that everyone should do this before starting a business. Right? But I feel that through their experiences, they should understand what are the two or three things to make this business, which I have to correct.

True. Right? And I think that is what is D have to correct? True.

Right? And I think that is what is Dhanda Chamakna. I don't think there is anything else.

Okay.

I think it is just understanding what is your main metric and what are those two or three things that make this business.

Fair.

What's third?

Third, I think, again I will start with the generic. Your business, your product, whether it is a tech product or a physical product, should be launched in two weeks. In two weeks. What do you mean by that? And what I mean by that is that I feel that no one can give you any knowledge about what is going to be in the market. What have you done till now?

You have identified the problem till now. You have put a little sense on it that will it work or not? Can money be made from it or not? Now, the next thing is that you have to try in the market. To understand what this business can be,. Only one person can tell you this. Your customer.

So, you have to take this product to the customer immediately. You don't have to keep working on it. We have been working on it for a year. We are working on the same solution. You don't have to do that. You have to hit the customers.

So, that's why I believe that... Say, if I am launching a brand of slippers. And in my brand of slippers, there is a jetpack. With which you can fly and go fast on the road. This is my slipper. Now what I have done is, I have seen that people have to walk very fast. And there are many people who have become old.

They have difficulty in walking. So, they have to walk fast. This is my problem. I have to solve this. I did a little math. I applied unit economics. And I said that if I price this,

then enough customers will buy it. And then I will be able to make money from it. Now, my next stage should not be that I make a jetpack. Because by the way, it will take me six months to make it. So suppose I made it. It took six months.

It took a year. It took a year. Then I launched it and no one bought it. It will be the worst thing. So how did I do it? I would launch a website immediately.

I would launch a website. I would launch a website.

I would write something good on it.

I would make a performance ad.

Where someone is flying.

So, I made a website. Making a website in today's world through AI. You make a simple website. Write clear features on it. Like how your slipper is different. Then you made a simple ad. A video ad.

Where people are flying. And it made a simple ad, a video ad, where people are flying and it is written there, flying slippers. And you launched it. I will take 10,000 rupees or even less 5,000 rupees, I will put it in

performance marketing. Nowadays, you get agencies of performance marketing who will not charge you more than 5%. To run ads, it's very cheap. So I will give 5000 rupees and run ads. And I will see some metrics in it.

Number one metric I will see is that the people whom I showed ads to, what percentage of them clicked on the ad? Which is my click-through rate, which is called GTR. Then they came to the website. Then I will see that the people filled my form, the percentage of people who filled my form,

like join waitlist, or buy this, write your details here. I will see the second metric. The third metric is that I will call the people who filled the form. And I will call them and ask them questions. If you want to buy this, how much will you want to buy it for? Or I will never ask this.

I will say that it is for 3000 rupees and I will see the reaction. 3000 rupees? Okay, 3000 rupees. So, I understood that. And from that, I am also understanding how much demand is there in the market. If you understand that CTR is very high, then I understood that this is a need in the market.

People need this. If they get the right price point, then they will buy it. If they come to the website and I have written four things on the website, that this happens with this, this happens with this, and still if they click, then it means that they are buying those four features. I feel that in today's date, you can do this in a week. If you have an idea, you can quickly launch this.

And you will not require more than 5000 rupees to launch this. And just talk to customers and understand whether it is going to work or not.

True.

I think this is going to become a superpower. Because of speed. Because I feel that wherever you work, either as an entrepreneur or during the first 10 people, you will do experiments. You will have to launch many times.

And I am telling you, when you launch, you will understand such things about the customer that you have never thought of. He was never going to tell you. Because the customer will not come and tell you anything. For example, there is a saying that if... So, this thing we are talking about is called MVP.

Minimum Viable Product. Sometimes it becomes Minimum Lovable Product. Whatever it is, nowadays... Minimum Evolvable Product. It's a new product in the market. But essentially, it's that, right?

There is a saying that if you are not embarrassed about your product, that means you have launched too late. Hmm. You should be embarrassed with your product.

True.

Right? So, I feel that this speed is so important. When you work in startups and when you go to disrupt MNCs, you need such insights from the customers who don't have MNCs. For that, you will have to launch 10 times. For example, I always say that whenever you launch, if I tell you the process, first I

will launch with a slipper. Five people signed up, I will talk to them. I will add them to the WhatsApp group. My first 100 customers will be in a WhatsApp group. They are my biggest product managers. Because these 100 people are going to tell me,

it's very important that you understand who you have added and who you have not added. If you add wrong customers, they will give you wrong requirements. If I add my kids in my example of slippers, then kids will say, there should be lights in this.

The slippers should be fun. But I am not solving that problem. I am solving the problem of mobility. So, you choose the right customers first. But then add them to a WhatsApp group and keep launching again on the WhatsApp group. You will keep getting feedback. Don't do this, don't do that.

Your first 100 customers are your best product managers. For a tech product, for a D2C product. And you have to very actively engage with them. This problem, I'm telling you, it seems very easy. You know, you have to talk to the customer. But the way customers talk, they don't have time.

You are making your own company full time, but they are not giving full time feedback. That's a part of their life. So, extracting the right information from them becomes a very important skill. Interesting.

Tell me the next one.

Fourth one, I think let's build upon and we can quickly finish this also, is how to talk to customers. I feel that the reason why I am adding this as a separate skill is because I have seen myself struggle a lot. When I was in Amazon and used to talk to customers, getting information from them is one of the hardest things that I've ever had to do. How do you talk to the customer? According to me, you have to work backwards on what you want from the customer.

When you are talking to the customer, the first thing that you want to know from the customer is... The problem that you have in your mind, is it a real problem? And how painful is that problem? If you are working backwards, you need this answer from the customers.

True.

So, you need this first. Second, you need to understand if this is a yes, if this is a no, then we should not be building what we are building. If this is a yes, then you need the next answer to this question.

What solutions have you used to solve this problem, what are the disadvantages you find in those solutions? If a better solution comes in the market, will you be willing to pay more for it or not? You have to figure out these questions. And there is a framework in this,

there is a book called Mom, called MomTest. There is a book as well. What is it? So, essentially, the reason why it is called MomTest, I mean, it is called MomTest for two or three reasons. One is that when you are talking to a customer, sometimes they talk like your relatives. They say, great, great, what are you making? But you have to not ask them questions about the product. So, there are three big rules in Mom Test.

One is, never talk about the product, talk about their lives. What problems do you face in your life? How many times do you face this problem? How do you solve it? I am talking about you. Second is, never talk about future.

Don't ask, if this problem comes, what will you do with it? How will they be able to visualize? You have to ask them questions about the past. And the third rule is, you talk less and you listen more. So, these three rules, again, I will say that after listening to this podcast, if you feel that you have learned to talk to customers, then that is a misunderstanding. You will have to do it, then you will understand.

Yes, you will have to talk to real customers, who are not your relatives. That is a very important part. I keep telling people that when you make your product, don't go and talk to your relatives. True. Because the relatives will say, this kid is doing well, You have to talk to people where their money is on the line. They will ask you very hard questions.

What is this? Why is this not there? So, I will definitely say that this is going to be a very important skill. Because again, a skill which by the way, is on the radar of being replaced by AI is right down there. Because it's going to be difficult for AI to be able to extract market research and being able to... See, because AI can do market research. But like specific customer insight which is new.

New and not average. And also being able to sit in front of customers, seeing their expressions, where they are twitching, where they are getting excited. AI will not be able to do this in the foreseeable future. What to say about AI?

Later I understood that it is seeing and doing something. But in the foreseeable future, it's going to be like a superpower. Nice. Tell me the fifth skill. The most important. If you have to choose one of the sub skills, this is it. The most important last skill if you have to tell somebody. I would say distribution.

Explain. favorite topic. And I will add many things in this. We will add distribution, growth, sales. I am talking about the same thing. The world is very noisy. If you feel that you will go out and tell your story and people will listen to it, that is false.

It's not going to happen. No one is going to listen. Because so many things are going on in the world. If you think that you will go out and tell your story and people will listen to it, that is false.

It's not going to happen. No one is going to listen. No one is going to listen because so many things are happening in the world. Everyone is vying for your attention. We are living in an economy which is an attention economy. Who can gain attention?

Attention is new oil. Yeah, it's the new oil. And you are not won't get it. So you have to figure out how you're going to be noticed. Now again, I've started with a very generic kind of an advice. And going deeper into it, I think you'll have to do a couple of things.

You'll have to choose your channel through which you want to express your voice?

You have to choose that. What is your message? You have to choose that. And the third thing, I feel that a combination of these three things

is something that will either make you a commodity or will make you stand out. Right? So I said channel, message and tone. For example, if we talk about Instagram as a channel, right? Which is an online subset of an online channel. It is a channel where people come for entertainment. It is an extremely flaky channel because you are scrolling. You are going to have very less time. So your message, if you are on Instagram, will need to be conveyed in the first 3 seconds. And it will need to be the opposite of everything that that person has seen on Instagram on that particular day for that person to stop scrolling.

The tonality will need to be something that that person either likes or themselves relates to. For example, for Gen Z there is a certain tonality. For older people there is a certain tonality. For business schools there is a different tonality which is much more serious. But you have to grasp that tonality.

So, the combination of these three, there is no science for it. It's literally art. Like in the sense that only and only if you understand content, if you understand user psychology, only and only if you have done this enough number of times, will you start understanding what works and what is your place?

But in general, my advice to people would be embrace content creation. It is not going anywhere. I feel one of the things that is going to become stronger due to AI is people standing there and talking authentically. I think it is going to start becoming more and more rare. Where people will come and say, I don't want to see AI, I want a real human face.

The less production, the better. The more authentic, the better. That's why I'm seeing on Instagram that less production, where there are some blur lines, there that content is working better because people just want, you know, Authenticity.

So, I think content creation is something that people, you know, need to grasp, need to understand. Right? Coming to the next part, I think there are two more things. Like you are making content, so on whom will you make content?

Will you make it on IG, LinkedIn or on YouTube? It does not work as much on LinkedIn because retention rates, engagement rates on LinkedIn are very less. The other thing is two more things. Which is performance marketing, you should know. It's unfortunately not going anywhere.

People dislike it because it's salesy, it destroys your brand. you should know. It's unfortunately not going anywhere.

People dislike it because it's sales that destroys your brand. But in today's world, I genuinely believe that there has to be a call to action. Otherwise, people don't take action. So, there has to be a call to action. And you need to understand how it works.

You need to understand how targeting happens. You need to understand how to manage an agency. You need to understand what are the metrics. You need to understand the funnel. You need to know the numbers. You need to know which ad will work and which won't.

Producing it, creating its content. Everyone needs to learn all this. I don't think there is any escaping from that. The other thing that is going to become, according to me, very important is Reddit. And Reddit was very important, but according to me, it has become even more important because Reddit feeds into most LLMs today. So, if I

go and put this message that should I watch Rajshamani's podcast? It is picking up most of its signals from authentic channels. And Reddit comes at the top in authentic channels. If you are not investing in it by the way, you should.

Like Reddit is the most important channel for most of the LLMs out there. When it comes to giving authentic

answers.

Nice.

So, it's very important that you are able to engage on Reddit and Reddit is a very differentiated unique community. If you go there and talk about a lot of brands, people will dislike you. They will hate you. So, you have to build a muscle and now it is also being called something like AEO which is there's a search engine optimization. Now, it is called general gen AI optimization or AI engine optimization. Now they are calling it general... Gen AI optimization or AI engine optimization.

Artificial intelligence engine optimization. Which is basically if you go on a chat GPD or a cloud and ask them... Who pops up first? All of that is going to be due to authentic content. Because during reinforced learning, there are certain tags that are given to content that is published on certain channels and Reddit is right up there.

So I know of a lot of people, you know, from the business school that I run, who have gotten to 1500 users directly by posting their product on Reddit in a very honest manner. I am a student, I have made this, you try it. But if you go on Reddit and say, this product is very good, it won't sell. Because that's an entire tonality of Reddit that works only and only for Reddit.

So I feel that Reddit is going to become another thing that people will need to know. In your startup school, people come, absolutely clueless, and then they come and learn all these skills, and they make it right there.

Yeah.

And more than anything, like I said earlier, it's not easy to make a big startup. And the other thing is, no matter how much I make them theoretically, for example, they have me full time. They listen to this daily. They listen to it daily, yes.

Yes, they listen to it daily. And I have been saying this since day one. But until they do it themselves, until they experience it themselves, till they don't have that aha moment where they go, yes, the thing that Varun told in class

or the thing that the told us in class, I can use that here and suddenly my sales will be 5x. Till then they don't get the motivation to actually learn that. And that's why I feel that when you are telling them that if they are not making a business on the side, then it is useless. They will have to make a business on the side.

They will have to fail. When they come to the startup school and they are studying, do they make a business. They have to fail. When they come to the startup school and they are studying, do they make side money? Yeah, they have to. They have to. They have to build a business. Like there is no option.

You are doing... You are doing projects with startups. You are doing classes. You are doing... Founders are coming to the campus. You are meeting them. But your business is running on the side.

And what happens with that is their interactions with the founders, they end up asking really good questions.

Yes, because they're making it themselves.

And they don't ask, tell us about your journey. They'll actually ask, sir, when your performance ad didn't run, what did you do? So the founder also says, where did this specific question come from? So I think it just in general helps when people are actually doing things rather than just kind of theoretically learning what they need to. Fair. Tell me one specific insight or let's say learning which you have worked with so many startups,

worked with so many students and in your own startup and Amazon, a bunch of places that you have worked and so many people who have invested in you are also like pretty sick, right? If you have to bottle it down and narrow it down to one very specific learning or insight which you feel subcompa seekhni chahiye pata hona chahiye which is like absolutely gold what would it be?

There are like three or four things that are coming to my mind. Think, think, think, take your time. This is my second last question. I'm going to ask you one more question after this. Yeah, so I'll tell you what has been my biggest learning after being in the ecosystem for the time that I have been is that and I'll tell you why it is gold for me because it is very liberating. Is that nobody knows what will work.

True.

Nobody knows. If you feel that you are the only person who is clueless. Everyone is clueless. And I am not Dipinder Goel. But I can say that Dipinder Goel is also clueless. What is going to happen with Zomato.

Stephen Hawking, who was an astrophysicist, has a book A Brief History of Time. And he says there that no one knows about space. No one knows about the universe. We know 1% and we are guessing. I think that's how it is.

So, you know, I'll tell you, it is uncomfortable to think that. Because then you realize that you don't know. But then it's comfortable to think that you are in the same boat as opposed to everyone around you. Everyone is only pretending to know. From their limited experience.

They are just pretending to know that we know. Almost to comfort themselves. To make their lives very predictable. No one knows. You go out, try it. There are just so many things to be learnt by you just doing a simple business.

You will understand immediately that you know 100x more than a person who has not done it and is sitting next to you.

True.

Experiences are the only teacher. And yeah, I don't know whether I did justice to that. No, it's okay. But that is that one thing that has at least...

Nobody knows.

That nobody knows that what... We all are figuring out. Yeah, we are all figuring out. Yeah, we are all kind of figuring out. We say this figuring out is a habit. It's not a podcast.

For everyone who is watching, it's a habit.

Yeah.

So like, you are just guessing everyday in life. Something will happen. Something will happen. But important is to keep guessing everyday in your life. Something will happen. Something will happen. But the important thing is to keep guessing everyday. Yes, keep guessing everyday. Because your surface area is increasing.

It will happen sometime. And if you get one, you will get all of them. You will get all of them.

So, we have to take more guesses. We have put failure at a very low level. We have defamed failure in our society. And we have made it one way door. By the way, this is an Amazon concept, one way door, two way door. But we have made it one way door.

This is failure. Oh, failure means he tried something, and it failed. That's not failure. We have said, this is a fail. So I feel like we need to almost embrace it and say that if there is a person who is moving. Like I keep telling people that if you are moving, you are going to be successful.

Yeah. Keep moving. Keep figuring out. Keep like trying and that's the right way to do it. So, if my message is that no one knows anything. Is able to make a few people move faster and in more directions, then I

think we would have been successful. True. So one last question. It's by it's it's not my original question. You may need to see your podcast. And I've started asking this to founders. I really want to give you credit whoever has asked this question. Please reach out to me. I saw in a clip that there is no Indian

who asked this on his podcast. I saw a reel from someone. So if you are watching this and if it reaches to you, please tell me I'm going to give you credit for this question. I'll say it open loud. So this question is, he asks,

I want to ask you, what is your current problem for which you will pay? As a founder, professionally, personally, whoever, like as you as a Varun, what do you think is your personal problem where you're like, someone solve this, I'll pay you, just solve my problem.

It can be small, it can be large, it can be anything.

It's going to be about somebody who can come in. And I'm going utopia, right?

Somebody with a superpower who can come in, talk to all the people who I could hire and find me 10 people who are superb individuals as per my definition, who can come into MESA and can help me grow MESA. It's essentially hiring.

Hmm.

Someone can solve hiring for you. If someone solves hiring for me in this manner.

Hmm.

That out of the thousand applications I get, I have 10 people who are like this. No, no, I will blast more applications.

You...

In the world.

In the world. In the world?

10 people will find me and bring me. Find and bring me to the office of those who have joined. So then, you know... It will be sorted. It will be sorted. I will be ready to pay a lot of money for that problem. I mean, I know that I am going to do...

This problem, I feel in the current situation, I am going to take 5 years to solve. And a hell of a lot of money I am going to put into that. If I walk into office tomorrow and these 5 people are there and somebody provides me that service, I am ready to pay like a lot of money to that person. Interesting. I think a lot of people will relate to it.

Somebody should definitely build something around this. At least become that person who can sense out. I will put this 10 with this. Somebody needs to be a matchmaker for founders. Yeah, yeah.

In this hiring manner.

And I tell you, I mean, if we connect with someone, first principle that we were talking about earlier, like there is Like job. I feel job is going to be disrupted by somebody who solves this problem. Right. I feel hiring in general

is such a big problem. And you know, there is probably going to be some company that is going to come in and say, bypass HRs. We will go directly to the hiring manager. Rather than giving the hiring manager like thousand profiles. Here are 10 profiles curated, you know,

already interviewed by an AI agent that you need to speak to and probably get to the next stage or something like that. Something somebody will say. I think they are top level, I think CXO levels have a lot of curated headhunters who get it.

Yeah.

But they work with very like few people. They are not solving like hiring in general. Yeah. They are solving hiring at 0.01%. Correct. And they take like... And they take insane money.

25%. But even in that 90% make fools. There are like only 5-10% really good headhunters who like... They come spend, there's a friend of mine who works in Singapore. Or he told me like, which was very good, he's insane. So there's one firm in Singapore, I don't remember their name. They only work with top Singapore companies.

Okay. And he solves CXO level for them. Only CXO and VPs. Nothing else. Before the role, he spends 3 months with the company.

Oh my god!

Like they are almost like internal consultants who would come and spend. Let's say, they will spend 3 months with Mesa. They will shadow Varun. They will write the whole thesis. Then they go and give 4 or 5 profiles. From all around the world. And then, like you just know instantly. And he was telling me that,

like they were talking and all his friends circle, all his friends, at least 12 or 13 people have worked with him. None of them have said that it's a bad hiring.

Wow.

Damn.

That was like crazy.

And I was like, if that person or that team is spreading so much, then there will be a huge demand for it. And they must be curating it. No, you are still young. You can't do it with them. And the demand will increase even more.

That you didn't say it, then I want to chase this. And then people are ready to pay the money, I guess. It must be insane amounts of money. But if it's ads, I was impressed. I was like, I want it too. I am a very small level, but I am ready to pay more because someone will solve this for me.

So, that kind of thing you would pay for. Yeah, yeah. 100%. Perfect. Thank you so much, sir. Thank you so much. Same here, it was fun. I think this was refreshing, had a lot of fun and you know, yeah. Thank you, sir. It was fun. Thank you. I hope people also like it and learn it. You're based in Bangalore? I mean,'m from Mumbai, but born and brought up in Mumbai.

Born and brought up here?

Yeah. I think the people who come from tier 2, tier 3 cities, big cities like Bangalore, Bombay, anywhere, the majority of people who migrate from anywhere, they have an invisible tax in their mind. And that invisible tax is

that pressure that if you fail, you have a home. I remember a funny story. When I was doing engineering, I had a friend. He used to come from Jalgaon. He had no idea about engineering. The whole village celebrated that

the first engineer is going to be born in our village. And he got a drop in the third year. And he was like, what should I do? I mean, I'll have to go and tell the whole village. Then we went on a summer vacation and came back. He was very happy. I asked him, what did you say?

He said, I said, I've been an engineer for 5 years. Thank you so much for watching this episode till the end. Now you have to do 3 things. First of all, subscribe to this channel. Because the more you subscribe, the more valuable and better guests we will be able to bring for you. No. 2, tell me in the comments,

what did you like and what did you dislike in this episode, so that we don't repeat those mistakes. And which guests do you want to see on our podcast again so that we can bring them and give you more value. And no. 3, do share this episode with at least one person because one conversation can change someone's life. because one conversation can change someone's life.

I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out.