Is there a lack of solidarity for Jewish people in the UK?

I'm going to start with a story that's on the front page of The Times.Yes.And there's reasons for that, because it's obviously personal to me.No one wants to become the subject of the story.It just happened to over the weekend.It's actually a story about Sarah Sackman, MP for Goldsgreen, who talks about the lack of solidarity.

I'm looking at you, Kevin, for a very specific reason.

Oh, thank you.

All right.Yeah, for, um, from, you know, Organisations that traditionally, in their heritage, stood shoulder to shoulder with communities, especially minority communities that were being abused.The TUC, the NHS, universities, charitable organisations who've devoted their life to anti -racism, Choose Love, there are many others.They have been loudly silent, showing their solidarity with the Jewish community after attack after attack.She right to call them out.

Yes, if they fail to denounce racism and prejudice and bigotry, you've got to...Denounce it wherever you find it, across all communities.Jewish community, Muslim community, the Sikh community, Hindu community.

They're not there at the moment.No, but that's what you have to do.

Where are their voices?If she's right, and they have been silent, and I read that piece, and I was sorry she didn't name specific organisations.She talked about the TUC.Yeah, but you have.But other anti -racist groups, if they haven't, they should be challenged.Because otherwise, you get into a two -tier system where you're given the impression, at the very least, that discrimination against Jewish people is somehow acceptable while it isn't against other people.

The reason she's talking about it, let's just be clear, is that there have been terrible instances of racism globally and around the world.And in response to that, quite rightly, we think about what happened in the rise of theBlack Lives Matter movement.Organisations were vocal, bringing people together, saying, we need to stop this.And what we know is that for bad things to happen, it'd take good people to do nothing.They were absolutely present in the public square, making sure that was the case.

Why do you think they're silent now?

I'm going to call a spade a spade on this.I think the suspicion, the reality is that a lot of the anti -Semitism is coming from radicalised Islamist groups and it's very difficult for people to say actually this is completely unacceptable because they're worried that they will be seen to be demonising another minority and so it's a very delicate situation.It's no accident that this has become a lot worse after the the 7th of October attacks in 2023 in Hamas.My view is that it's become much more of a hot potato.It's become much more of a polarised situation.And I think it's very difficult for a lot of those traditional anti -racist groups to be able to say, actually, to call out some of the pro -Palestine, the radicalised elements that are against Israel.

But why is that the case, Kevin?Just tell the truth about it.

Tell the truth, by the way.

The truth is, and you don't need me to explain, the pogrom by Hamas in Israel was absolutely horrific and brutal.But then, equally, we have the murder, or the killing, of 70 ,000 -plus people, which is said to be a genocide in Gaza, including many women and children.But we've got to separate those events from the pogrom.the Jewish community in Britain and elsewhere.But Kevin, that's exactly why this is so difficult.

Some people do conflate it.Yeah, they do.But we have to separate it.I agree.You have to separate them.But Kevin, yeah, you've got to.

point but I think that this is why this is so evil because what's going on in the Middle East is essentially being used as an excuse to attack people here who have got nothing to do with with the politics of Israel.They've got nothing to do with the politics of the Middle East.They happen to be Jewish people.They've lived here for decades.And they're basically being used as a political football and are in the process of...

I think the xenophobia comes from similar things in the sense that it's maligning an entire faith, an entire group of people with what we assume is extremist and terrorist behaviour.

I mean, Rob's question was why are these groups less involved or less enthusiastic about denouncing addressing racism and bigotry and I'm saying that this is because it's a very complicated political picture and you're pitting some minorities against the other.That's the danger.

And I've heard in the Muslim community, in some representatives of the Muslim community complain that the abuse of them and attacks on them isn't given the media coverage.that other, let's say, attacks on Jewish people would get.And it's a terrible sort of who -suffers -most game.But right now we're talking about the Jewish community, not just because there were two attacks last week.

Absolutely, but I'm pointing it out.Just pause for a second if you don't mind.In those circumstances, all of those left organisations tend rightly, I must emphasise that, to stand shoulder to shoulder in solidarity with the Muslim communities.There's not just one.silence.I agree.

The reality is, I ask you to tell the truth about it because of the situation...

Why do you keep saying me tell the truth?I come on here and tell the truth every day.

This is emanating from the left, is my point.And there is a suspicion, isn't there, amongst left organisations thatcharities, NGOs, et cetera, that if you speak up against anti -Semitism, you are somehow supporting the Israeli state.

That's the complex.Well, if we name names and organisations, it's a very serious accusation, and it may apply in some cases, because I believe, I believe...

That's completely wrong.

You haven't even heard what I'm about to say.

I know what you're going to say.

You can back the Palestinian cause, think they should have justice, think Israel has a right to exist, Jewish people shouldn't be persecuted.You can condemn what's happened, with Hamas and the pogrom.You can condemn what happened in Gaza too and you can condemn what is happening to Jewish people in Britain.Where I know from Jewish friends that they are frightened in a way they haven't been in my, I'd say in my lifetime.

Let me just share with you what happened to me the other night.And I really, we talked about whether I should share it, because I don't want to become the subject of any stories.I went to a great school in the afternoon, a great state school.And later on in the evening, I was with a friend.It was relatively late in the evening.We were walking along Carnaby Street when a kid comes along on a bike.

And he stops.He could tell he sort of clocked it was me.And he decided to spat out his, I use that language deliberately, his favourite lyric.What was that lyric?Now, just to be clear, I'm going to use it and share it with people at home.It's in history books that people learn.

He said...Heil Hitler at me.Laughed and then drove.Now, I want to be clear, I didn't feel threatened, I didn't feel like I was a victim in any way.But it's deeply offensive.Absolutely.

Last night, Ramph and I had the privilege to go to the 45 Aid Society event.That's the charity my mum runs.It's about...

Oh, look, there we are.

There we are.Yes.It was a beautiful thing.

It's to commemorate those young boys who were brought over, the 1 ,000.In fact, they couldn't find 1 ,000 boys.survived, they found 737.And there are so few of those survivors who remain in this country, they made their life in the Lake District, in other parts of the world.And I think we've got a picture with Eric Hirsch who My son came actually.I don't often show my son's face on television but I thought it was so important and so moving and we met more Holocaust survivors.

I just want to tell you what happened at our dinner.It was an extraordinary thing to have the privilege of hearing those voices and to listen to people table to table as you're describing.Kevin, again, despite the deafening silence amongst TUC, et cetera, Jewish people talking about, frankly, where they're going to go.But the most poignant thing that Ranva and I heard was a young girl on our table who's at secondary school, bog -standard state school, you might say, happens to be Jewish.And she says, as I was telling her what happened to me on the weekend, she goes, oh, yeah, I go to school every day.And every single day, there'll be kids that will say Heil Hitler at me.

This is 2026.The other thing that happened, Kevin, let me tell you, is when I put that out, just to share what happened, what was I met with on X and various spaces, people telling me I'd made it up, people saying, just like some of the shadow impulses that take place in organisations on the left, and in other spaces, the right to, saying, here's the thing, you kind of deserve it because of what's going on in Palestine.In Gaza, yeah.

But it's just not the case.That's what's so wrong.And it's horrific.That's what's so wrong about what's going on.I mean, the anti -Semitism and the racism aside, to use a community here as a kind of proxy whipping boy for punishment because of policies that are being driven in Israel or the Middle East.I think it's really, really bad.

Robin, in South Shields, my hometown, I saw on a wall, star David and somebody had written, Hitler was right.It was graffiti.I hadn't seen that in my hometown.What does that do to you?Poor it makes you feel sick And you think wow, this is you know, there is this explosion in hate and it yes anti -semitism Islamophobia anti -muslim, too.

Why are you?Bringing them together because we're talking about anti -semitism I'm talking about a terrible outburst of hate.

We've got to condemn it all and this is where I would agree if organizations are denouncing Islamophobia.They've got to be denouncing anti -Semitism too.

And it's worth pointing out that Sarah Sackler is...

Otherwise, we go to hell in a handcart as a country.

She does make the point, first of all, that she had received messages from Christian Muslim faith leaders.So she does go to some length to make sure that she makes that clear, that faith leaders from various different faiths, and indeed all faiths, have indeed stood side by side.But we're talking about those with no faith, perhaps, and others who have political views, as opposed to faith leaders.

Rob, it's May Day.And there will be, around Britain, there will be May Day rallies with trade union leaders and workers.And yes, they've got to denounce anti -Semitism and denounce Islamophobia, and not just one.I agree.If you're going to do your denunciations, do them at least both.Don't do any of them.

There's some 300 ,000 Jews in the UK, right?It's very small.Most people haven't met Jews.deeply that the British public are great.I believe that they share the values, not just of tolerance, but above all else, inclusion.What matters is those organisations that

have the power to bring them together speak up, right?Yeah, I agree.

We all agreed on that, but I think the reasons why this explosion of hate as you describe it need to be explained.I think there's a specific context for anti -Semitism which isn't today, which isn't the same as a lot of the anti -Semitism Islamic or Islamophobia or other ethnic groups.I think they're very vulnerable communities.You've said only 300 ,000 in very, you know, concentrated areas.And they're uniquely vulnerable in that way.

And also to say, we're talking about antisemitism, here's the thing, Kevin.So look, this is our experience.By the way, what about this other community?We all agree that we should stop it.But what you're doing is Just to be clear, so you understand, and the impact that has on the Jewish community and the danger it has of bringing people together and helping the Jewish community feel valued and saved.So yes, there is anti -Jewish racism.

But what about this other community?That's right.No, no, no.

I think that really weakens the point that we're trying to make.

This is Zach Polanski, who is Jewish, the only leader of a Jewish political party, the Green Party, as it is.He complains if he talks about antisemitism and other forms of discrimination.He's somehow been told he's not a legitimate voice.Look, I often speak on this programme and elsewhere about antisemitism.We're discussing it now.I'm talking about there's hate in general.

in society, and we've got to tackle all the hate.And you've said, you've said, some people, some institutions are not condemning anti -Semitism.I'm saying they've got to condemn the anti -Semitism.

Yeah, that's true.

That's what I'm arguing, just that they have to condemn all forms of hate.But it's the whataboutery that I think is misplaced.No, no, there's no whataboutery.What about this?What about that?No, we're talking about anti -Semitism.

We've got to talk about it.

If Jewish people are being ignored, and somehow they're hurt,thought not to count, that is utterly wrong.I'll condemn that until the cows come home.Full stop.

Let's talk about some other issues as well around in the news today.So, Sakhir Starmer, in the week of the local elections, has travelled away to the Armenian capital for a congregation of all the European countries.They're talking about lots of different issues, defence they're talking about.But, of course, for us here, there is this spectre of Sakhir Starmer wanting to go a bit further than what was in the Labour manifesto in terms of resetting the relationship with Europe and today in a lot of the papers this price tag of a billion pounds that The Europeans now would be saying if you want to have closer Relations for economic ties for the benefit of your country a you have to put up more money for Ukraine which I think we are agreeing to do so but also there will be a lot of conditions and you've got no say over it and clearly and Sakhir Starmer thinks that this is the way to perhaps keep himself in the game for the next general election.He's banking on the fact, is he, that closer ties with Europe at this time is actually...

Well, he also believes they're beneficial for trade and you've got to pay to play.But also politically.The Swiss pay, I think it's £375 million for access to the single market, so that'd be the billion pound which we'd have to pay, which is about just under three weeks of what the Brexit campaign claimed down the side of the bus.

On the side of the bus.

150 million a year.We're outside.If you want to be in, you're right.We're going to have to follow rules that we won't make in the same way.The best deal I would maintain all the way.I know you disagree.

Disagree, disagree.

Completely disagree.Was to be in, not to be on the outside.For all these reasons, when we are inside,you help make the laws and the regulations.When you're outside, to some extent, you take them.Look, we settled that debate in a referendum.

Well, it's not settled.It took place ten years ago, and people like Keir Starmer and yourself argued passionately that we should rejoin, we should have a second referendum, and all of that nonsense.And 10 years on, you're still making the same case.

It's so boring.It's not settled.talking about cost of living and so on, and benefits, all these extra costs on the government.I mean, how can you argue against that, Keir?No, no, no, no, no.

So what he's getting, what he's saying, I mean...We can't trust Trump, we know this.No, no, but the idea that the EU are totally immune from all these problems is complete nonsense.They're suffering from exactly the same things as we are.So, if we join them, it doesn't mean our problems are going to go away.I think it's far too simplistic to say that.

And, of course, they're not dummies.I mean, they're saying, if you want to have any kind of association with us, you've got to pay for this.And he's in a difficult position, because, on the one hand, you've got a whole bunch of the red wall that voted against staying in the EU, and you've got reform has topped the polls for a whole year.And on his left side, they are plateauing.They are plateauing.

But poll after poll shows most people would rejoin.We're not going to rejoin.He gave a pledge in his manifesto that there'd be no return to freedom of movement in the customs union of the single market.But the EU was our biggest trading partner.It's about half our trade.About 20 % goes to the US, and then the other 30 % is spread around.

It's been an economic disaster.It has blown a Brexit black hole in the economy.This is chaos.

This is complete nonsense.So why is it France, Germany, Italy, all the biggest economies in the EU, they've flatlined as we have.None of them are growing very fast.All of them have issues with migration.All of them have burgeoning welfare states.All of them have paid very little on defence.

These are facts.Are you arguing Brexit's been an economic success for the UK?I'm not saying it's been an economic success.a complete 100 % success.What I am saying...What percentage success has it been, then?

I think there's some great things.I think the fact that we responded to COVID in the way we did and we got the rollout of the vaccines, that wouldn't have happened if we'd stayed in the EU.I also think that the idea that the EU...Well, it was Ursula von der Leyen who said we were a speedboat and the EU was like an oil tanker.She said that.You could develop...

She made that metaphor.

She said that metaphor.That's because we were still in...

We were still in organisations at the time.It's nothing to do with that.You've got to be honest about this.You've got to be able to say.

You're being dishonest about vaccines.I'm not being dishonest.I'm not being dishonest about the vaccine.We could have developed our own vaccine if we weren't fully paid.

A lot of people, like, let's be clear, why people, you know, just to say, the Red Wall, you call it, voted to leave the EU.Those are otherwise Labour voters.Many now are going to reform.And the big issue.is migration and immigration, and especially what's happening on the boats.There's a story, Ramya, you share this.

Yes, I think it's harrowing.A Times photojournalist took some really harrowing witness reporting, actually.So I think we've got it.The pictures are in.It's migrants on the Dunkirk beach who are scrambling aboard small boats bound for England.And then there's an Eritrean mother, who you can see there in the distance, Salem Tedros.

And she is stopped by the French border police, who, as you can see there, that pulls herher two children far away from her.There's a young boy and a girl there in the yellow vest.Now, the mother is saying, come, come, come to her children.At this present time, her husband and her two other children are already on the dinghy.They've gone.

And she's saying, come, I need to get out to them.And the police officer, who looks herself quite distressed, is saying to the children, you can't go.And there's another picture that this Times journalist has captured of an Eritrean mother, Merkeb.She realises that her son, aged three, is already aboard a boat, and the police stop her from getting on.And she is slumped in the sand, face down, distraught, clearly, that her three -year -old is now on a dinghy with strangers, and she is nowhere near him.And that is the end of the story.

who knows of what is going on there.

That is a reminder...

And we have paid half a billion pounds to France, haven't we?Very, very recently.Is this what we were paying for?

This is a reminder we're talking about people when they're coming across in boats.Too often, people are completely dehumanised and presented as being...Inhuman.Overall, boat crossings are down by about a third this year, compared to last year.Yes.In fact, 41 % the Home Office say.

But I feel deeply uncomfortable and slightly sick at that scenario, but I don't know what the answer is.Is it then, say, the French police just put everybody on the boat and let them go?

My question would be, I thought we were going to smash the gangs, not smash families apart.I mean, I thought the whole point was to deter them from getting on in the first place.That was the slogan that the government pushed forward.The gangs that appear to be working very quickly, very hard from all parts of northern France and Belgium.

Well, it's been a big failure of policy.And the government, if it doesn't get a grip of this, will suffer even worse consequences.than are anticipated this week.

The numbers coming in small boats is a small fraction of net.Migration of years, but it's taken on a huge political right significance, which may it doesn't makes me feel Nauseous and this is separating families.

It's the worst.It's a tale of two pictures that the story that Ranvir just shared like a human life Okay, and for that mom that mom doesn't put her kid on the water unless the water safer than the land, right?Like they're they're thirsty for for safety for America, but there's another picture there.Mm -hmm in that same story and it's a boat.Thanks around me of young men who are coming to the UK looking for work.I don't think you can see it then.

Now, the Green Party, I want to be clear, they at least have a policy on this.They say, we need staff.We need workers.We should have an open borders policy.If we did, that would be unnecessary.Many people take the view that that is the appropriate policy.

But to many people out there seeing that, they don't see people fleeing war.and looking for safety, they see young people looking for...

They're economic migrants.I mean, you've got to distinguish between asylum seekers.The old idea was that people who were being discriminated against, Jewish pogroms, we talked about anti -Semitism in the 1890s, that was what the asylum policy was designed for.And then there's economic migrants.And you can't conflate the two.Eritreans...

But that's what's happening now.

Eritreans are generally accepted to be asylum seekers and refugees because they're fleeing a very authoritarian regime.country, I think they're one of the five, there's five groups, Syrians are another five groups that make up most of the people coming across on small boats.Yeah but a lot of them are economic migrants, we've got to be honest about that.Well the Albanians for instance were and there was a deal done.But it's also true, to remind that there are peoplethey do come to work, start a new life and that is a compliment.

That's not the way to do it.That's a compliment to our country.If you're going to be an economic migrant, you don't come on a dinghy and seek asylum.I am pleased that Britain attracts people rather than repel.

Or you follow the law just to apply for asylum in France.That's right.

There is a way of doing it, which is a proper way, and there's a way of doing it which is the wrong way.

And that's what we've got to distinguish.Can we just pivot?It's been a morning of great, you know, challenging conversations, to say the least, and a bank holiday morning.We were thinking about, sadly, the weather is terrible.You know, I blame Sean for that entirely.But it seems to me that, you know, people want to be on the beach outside.

And one of the fun things to do on a beach is crabbing.

It's crabbing, yes.But apparently, now look, if things weren't bad enough we're now being told we're not allowed to go crabbing on the beach for a bit of fun.The RSPCA is asking people not to do it because crabs feel pain too.It warned that this obviously traditional activity, we've done it, that crabs are sentient animals and can feel stress.And therefore, we must now not be...I know.

I've got to ask you, it's a surprise question to you and early morning, what are your views on crabs?On crabs?

Best avoided.No.A little personal experience.

I think this is completely muddled.You can go to a restaurant and order a crab.

Exactly.

That's legal.But the idea that crabbing should be illegal or wrong is nonsense.

If I take my grandkids down to the coast now... pick up crabs and put them in a bucket, you look at them but then you put them back.

We've caught you, we'll now release you for a period of time, but we will catch you again a little bit later on and you should come back.You were both listening to Mel Stride, the Shadow Chancellor there, talking about what's on the table.the Daily Telegraph, actually.It's the Conservative Party's own analysis of how much money people are receiving in benefits over and above what is the average salary.And they say there's 600 ,000 households, and the word is households, not individuals, actually, who receive more than the average worker's salary.And I think that does strike a chord with people who are working hard at home.

However, underneath that, are, as the government would point out, people with severe disabilities.Their partners care for them.And the Conservatives are saying, actually, if you can work in those families, you should work.Otherwise, under us, you won't get unlimited benefits.

Yeah, those figures are massively flawed.600 ,000 households.Those households where people are working will, most cases, be getting child benefits.So you'd have to include that.They may be getting other benefits themselves.They might be getting universal credit.

credit top -ups for low wages.So I think those figures are absolutely bogus.And also, what Mel Stride didn't say is they were higher when he was Working Pensions Secretary.When he 23, 24, I think it was about 40 ,000 higher than it was in 24, 25, the first year of the Labour government.So they've fallen since he won.

So the point he was making is that the welfare bill is unsustainable and that's exactly the point that the government made at the beginning of last year when they brought in the reforms.It's 155 billion?Yeah it's 155 and increasing and as Mel pointed out the government brought in a bill I think it was in May last year, or at that time, and they couldn't get it through because the backbenchers...You turn.Hang on.Winterfield we're talking about.

The backbenchers smelt the bill out and the government didn't have the political bandwidth to put it through.

The welfare bill at about 10 .6 % of gross domestic product.10 .6%.What about £1 .10 in the economy?And we pay 2 % on defence.Is Labour going to get it through?It is lower as a proportion than most of the European countries.

The bulk of it goes on pensions for which you pay national insurance for 35 years to qualify for the full pension.So yes, I am challenging the idea that it is unsustainable.

But what are you saying?Are you saying that last year the government was wrong to try and reduce the welfare bill?Yes.

I think when you are going to take away, which is what they were doing, they're going to take away money from people who can't wash the lower part of their body.Yes.Yes, I think that was wrong.

So who is going to pay for the welfare bill?People in work?They've got to be taxed more and more to pay for welfare?Is that the plan that you're pushing?I've got my quasi -quartung crypto tax there coming.

You know how.You're going to tax the rich.You know how the economy works.You pay in and you get out.

Don't worry about taxing the rich.Kevin, you know, in hardworking communities, Sedgefield, Bolsover, Hartlepool, these were labour heartlands.One of the frustrations in those communities is that there are hard -working people there that are receiving less as a household income than people who are on benefits in some cases.Now, here's the thing.Everybody here, including Mal Stride, to be fair to him, says if you are entitled to those benefits, then you should receive them.That's what it's there for as a safety net.

Do you think that he's right, that there are, in many instances, cases where people shouldn't be in receipt of it, if they've got mental health conditions, where they could be in work?

Where you get extra money if you're severely disabled, I'm all for it.The system is designed, if you are in work, you will get more top -ups from your benefits than you would if you weren't in work.That's how the system works.Now, we can try and set low -paid people against sick and disabled people.people.We can play that political game if we wish.

I don't think it's very helpful.If somebody is fiddling where there are cases, of course, you'll get that, just like people will dodge tax.then you've got to deal with those.

Yeah, but that's not the billion pounds of savings that the Tories are talking about.No, they're not.

If you let someone else in and actually have an argument, and actually put the other...You cannot believe...

Let Cossie finish.

The fact is, we've got Massive needs on defense.Yeah, we're spending two and a half percent to between two and two and a half percent How you have you calculated on defense and you're spending as you say 11 % on welfare that Historically has never been the case go back 30 years We're spending a lot more on defense and a lot less on welfare and it's simply unsustainable to pay more and more of the national wealth OK, listen, I'm just going to leave the final word to Paul, who's on WhatsApp.

He says, I get standard rate disability.I'm on universal credit.My son is my carer.I suppose to be getting a council tax benefit, but I have to pay £83 a month, as well as all my other bills.It's so difficult to manage.I sometimes have to choose between eating or paying for something else.

And that is the true cost of taking benefits away.

Thank you, Kwasi.Thank you, Kevin.

We've got to go and move on.