‘It’s ****ing WEIRD, Man’ Former CIA Spy Andrew Bustamante on Kirk, JFK & RFK Shootings

When you look at that, Shudi, what's the stuff were you with your former CIA had on go?

That's a bit weird.

We still don't know what the motive was. Anything is a possibility, but what are the probabilities that it played out the way that we're being told? It doesn't make sense. He had a plan to succeed. That's fucking weird, man.

The CIA employs tens of thousands of people who labor on mostly unglamorous duties like monitoring foreign media and transcribing very dull conversations. But its secret operations on foreign soil, carried out by bona fide spies, are riveting to almost everybody. Journalists, whistleblowers, and congressional inquiries have surfaced many chilling details about the CIA's meddling over the decades.

And the dawn of new media has posed a new challenge for an agency whose work is definitionally secretive, spying as you go on podcasts. Andrew Bustamante is one of such formerly secret agents. His insights have been viewed by tens of millions of people around the world. Despite this, he says he plans to completely disappear in the next couple of years. Should be easy for a spy but not before promoting his new book Shadow Cell and

some might think getting a haircut I wouldn't I like it Andrew great to see you again and to meet you in person actually we've only ever done this down the line before so great to have you in the studio here and I want to come to your fascinating book and every time I interview, I'm enthralled by what you say about it all. But first question, the Charlie Kirk murder has, like everything like this in modern times now, led to a plethora of conspiracy theories raging around.

And I had Rob O'Neill, who was a Navy SEAL who killed Osama bin Laden on last week, fellow Monday, saying that there were a lot of questions he felt just didn't quite stack up with it. Everything you've seen about the shooter, what happened,

the fact it was a single bullet, the way he was able to put together his gun, dismantle his gun, get away, and so on, the weird text messaging with his transitioning boyfriend and so on. What do you make of it all? Do you think there are unanswered questions with this?

Does it make sense to you?

Oh, absolutely there are unanswered questions. It doesn't make sense to me completely. And I think that's why there are conspiracy theories that are popping up around the shooting. The problem is that like so much of what happens in the real world, there are areas that are protected, areas of information that are not available to the public,

so the public doesn't get a full picture. You were just talking about the emergence of new media. Part of the unexpected or possibly unproductive side effect of that new media is that we now know more of what we don't know. Whereas in the past, when we didn't know,

we didn't even realize we had a gap of information.

What is the stuff, when you look at that, Shudi, what's the stuff with you with your former CIA had on go, that's a bit weird.

So first of all, the fact that there's really no significant new information since about September 19th. That's fucking weird, man Right, like how how how is this so significant that we're having national? Days of silence for Charlie Kirk. How is it so significant that it's making international media day after day, but we can't get new information We still don't know what the motive was We're having people like the transgender roommate

slash lover disappear, and nobody's talking to them, and there doesn't seem to be a large manhunt.

No, I don't think there's an autopsy report yet. I don't think we've had an autopsy.

Exactly, so this is information that doesn't seem unreasonable to share, and yet it's not being shared, so the question becomes why. There's lots of legitimate reasons why it wouldn't be shared yet, but that's not good enough for us with our current appetite.

From a technical point of view about the shooting itself, for a 22 year old who's not military trained, to be able to get up on that roof, put together a gun, then dismantle it, fire off one shot with a bold action rifle that belonged to his grandfather reportedly,

and get away, but to be able to assassinate somebody in that clinical manner, does that seem likely or is there something we don't know about what this kid was doing before all this?

We look at everything in intelligence through a lens of probability. Anything is a possibility, but what are the probabilities that it played out the way that we're being told? So when I think of his age,

and I think about the fact that he grew up in a hunting family, and I think about the fact that he was familiar with that particular weapon, he was familiar with the campus. He had what we call the advantage of area familiarity,

area familiarity, area fam. He had all of those benefits that Charlie and Charlie's team did not have. Plus, of course, he had the element of surprise on his side. But when it comes to the technical elements of being able to handle that weapon, I tend to agree more with Rob.

It doesn't make sense. How, unless he spent hours in premeditation, assembling and disassembling his gun, he already had his ingress and his egress route planned. He already knew where he was gonna stash the weapon. He had a plan to succeed.

His dad is the reason his plan to disappear ultimately didn't succeed. And that was obviously a variable he didn't account for. So is it possible that he prepared to the extent that he needed to prepare to run such an effective operation? Yeah, it's possible, but is it probable that he did it alone?

It's not really probable that one 22-year-old would be able to figure all of that out.

And to fire one shot and be successful in your mission.

Yeah, I mean arguably you can see that he hadn't trained for the shot distance because while he did shoot Charlie in a fatal location, it's unlikely he was aiming for that specific location. So there are certain elements that highlight he was amateur as a professional killer. A Navy SEAL like Rob wouldn't make a mistake like that, wouldn't see that tumble and not predict it.

Right. I mean, Rob had a lot of questions, but one of which was just the amount of time it took him, like you said, to assemble and disassemble. He said he didn't think he could do it in the time that they believed this boy did it. And it's interesting because the only equivalent kind of story in the last few years where there are even more unanswered questions is the young person who tried to assassinate

Donald Trump from a similar roof, from a similar distance, about whom we seem to know absolutely nothing. I mean, even the guy on the golf course, we know a bit more because he defended himself and everything else. But that original shooter remains just so weird. This kid had no digital footprint, nothing.

From a CIA point of view, when you encounter that, where someone tries to assassinate the President of the United States or a very high profile figure, and when you dig into it, for a young person to have no digital footprint whatsoever,

that to me is very, very odd.

Absolutely, there's hidden information there, without a doubt. It's funny, my mind worked very similar to yours, Piers. When I started to research the elements that made up the Charlie Kirk assassination, I immediately was triggered to look back at Thomas Crooks,

the one who tried to kill Donald Trump when he was on the campaign in Butler, Pennsylvania. The parallels are very, very powerful, very humbling, right? You're talking about similar age groups. You're talking about high levels of intelligence. You're talking about similar age groups. You're talking about high levels of intelligence. You're talking about a level of emotional IQ

that made them actually well-liked in their community. So no one expected that they would have this killer instinct inside them, and arguably, maybe they didn't. They certainly were able to carry out something dangerous,

but could they have done it alone? We don't know. But even now, when you research Thomas Crooks,

the American people to know. Well, and of course it goes right back to JFK and the unanswered questions there and everything else. And I've had a lot of people on talking about the JFK files and you just think, will we ever find out? Do you think we ever will? Will we ever know for sure?

In the world of intelligence, in my experience, when there's something that is damaging to the idea of the American government, the idea of the structure that we have, the specificity of how we carry out our operations, when something is butting up against those areas of information, we'll never know.

Because it's not in the government's best interest to actually be transparent with the people.'s not in the government's best interest to actually be transparent with the people. It's in the government's best interest to tailor and cultivate what's released, and that includes cultivating and tailoring what isn't released.

I had Oliver Stone on The Filmmaker with his son last week talking about the RFK assassination and how he was certain, they've done a documentary about this, he was certain that was a CIA inside job. Did you ever hear anything about that when you were?

The RFK assassination is another interesting example of where information is missing, but, and what's left doesn't stack up. The pre-2001 CIA, pre-911 CIA is a very different beast than the CIA I grew up in. And one of the things that they teach us when we go through our onboarding is how different and kind of wild west, unsupervised, very reckless that previous CIA was.

It was born of the time, at the time it was needed, and it was kind of ignored for, you know, 30 years before any significant oversight was applied to it. So could they have been involved? I don't put anything beyond what CIA without oversight could have done, especially considering it only falls under the Office of the Executive, which just implies that at some point in time, it

would want to shape the Office of the Executive. And that is exactly why JFK assassination is so interesting.

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It's a very valid point. There is no such thing as former CIA. There's no such thing as retired military. The fact that we served once means that at the drop of a dime, at the call, we will serve again. And I'm not trying to hide that

and I'm not trying to say anything else. But there's a difference between being favorably disposed, dedicated, loyal to the mission versus being controlled by the mission today. And when people say, I think what they're implying is that I'm still part of CIA.

I am most certainly not part of CIA. CIA is not my friend. They are very publicly not my friend. I get letters from them all the time reminding me to get off screen because I have no business being on screen and and threatening me with legal action if I overstep the boundary of my secrecy agreement so people don't

see that part they just see me on camera. Your book, they tried to block it for a while, but you finally got it unblocked. What was the kind of stuff which they were objecting to and how much of that in the end has made the final edit?

Yeah, absolutely. So my book, Shadow Cell, that was just released in September, thankfully we are a New York Times bestseller. I'm very excited about that. Congratulations. Thank you very much.

The entire manuscript was finished in 2021 and submitted to CIA in late 2021. And then in 2022, the whole world changed. You had conflicts creep up between the United States and China. You of course had Russia invade Ukraine.

You had new brinksmanship with Iran and North Korea. And as a result of that, CIA deemed the entire book a classified document from beginning to end. The premise of the story, the operation itself, the individuals involved, even the number of cases.

Inside the book, we go through detailed, the number of officers that were in our cell, the number of cases that the officers managed, CIA wanted none of it released, they deemed it all classified information. My wife and I understood as former CIA officers,

what is actually the definition of classified information. And it took us three years of kind of legal back and forth with CIA.

And out of interest, for those who don't really understand as well, what is the kind of overarching definition of it?

So the definition of human classified intelligence is that it has to be information that exists on a document that has classification markings. That's what makes it classified. There's this catch-all where they can say, oh, if you take what you said, it implies enough information, but that requires a court to come in and say

that the court agrees or disagrees with CIA's saying. So my wife and I knew that what was in the book was not word-for-word, verbatim, off of any classified document. So we knew that it wasn't going to withstand that accusation. But it took us three years because CIA went through different directors.

CIA has its own political issues. Of course, CIA is a one-way street. You write to them, they may or may not write you back right away. So it was a lot of back and forth that ultimately only won, we only won because we threatened them with a First Amendment lawsuit. And when we threatened a First Amendment lawsuit with a platform of my size online, that was when they decided to come back and say that it's releasable. Well I'm thrilled

the book got done. It's an insider account of the new spy war. Who right now has the best spies in

the world? Which country? The best is a difficult word to answer because you have to think about what-

Who are the most effective?

The most effective, I would argue, are Massad because Massad has a very narrow threat against it, right? It really is only looking at Iran and Iranian proxies that threaten its eradication. That gives it the benefit of only having a small group of enemies

rather than the whole world being an intel target. It also justifies their very, very aggressive, very innovative actions all over the region because they're fighting for their literal survival. Whereas the United States has the largest economy, everybody's an enemy and there's a whole lot of intel that we need to collect.

So it makes us less effective compared to Mossad. How did the Mossad not know that October the 7th, we're two years on now, how did it not know, given how obviously brilliantly expert it is at intelligence? How could it have been that the biggest failure of its intelligence ever happened right on its doorstep?

It's definitely fruitful grounds for conspiracy. In my experience, it's very, very akin to 9-11. And I think when people make comparisons of October 7th to 9-11 here in the United States, or in the United States, when they make those comparisons, there are areas that don't line up,

but there are areas that absolutely do line up. And the reason 9-11 happened in both classified and unclassified channels is because of a lack of coordination and communication that That would have prevented the attack I think we see even now again in public information. The same thing is true about October 7th. It was avoidable It was preventable

But for whatever reason the different groups that were involved because imagine you had the Mossad Collecting foreign Intel you had shin bet managing internal security and then you had the Mossad collecting foreign intel. You had Shin Bet managing internal security. And then you had the actual military controlling the border. All three of them, most likely, they report in different channels. They use different code words. They use different rules and regulations.

You can see it becoming a bureaucratic kerfuffle that a more nimble enemy could have taken advantage of.

The bit I don't understand is that Hamas seemed to have spent 20 years building one of the biggest tunnel networks in the whole region, by far the biggest probably. And the Mossad either didn't know or didn't understand what they may have been planning and why they needed to do this. I mean, again, they can take out 3,000 guys from Hezbollah with pages that they've worked on for years.

They can surgically strike into Iran, whether it's nuclear scientists and nuclear sites and so on, with incredible precision. But they didn't work out that if you're building hundreds of miles of underground tunnels, that there may be something going on here?

One of the challenges in any kind of intelligence assessment is prioritization of threats and then also understanding the potential or probable timing of an attack. For all we know, Mossad had an assessment that there was going to be some pivotal attack on the 18th of October. Or maybe they had an evidence or an assessment that said it would happen on the 3rd of October. And it didn't happen.

And it didn't happen. We don't know exactly what they were looking at. All we know is what happened on October 7th. The building of tunnels has lots of explanations. The building of tunnels is also an effective tool for a less threatening enemy. And I would argue Hamas, as threatening as they are, is still less threatening than a formal military.

They use things like tunnels because it's something they can do that avoids imagery collection, it avoids airplane reconnaissance, it avoids pretty much anything unless there's a seismic intel source,

a Mazint intel source nearby.

You've warned that America is about to fall. You talk of empires falling from within, and you've outlined a lot of internal weaknesses you think are contributing to this. Just to summarize that, why do you fear that this may be the case?

When I talk about the decline of the United States, I want to make sure people understand it's not something I'm comparing to Rome. And many people try to make the comparison. It's not the Roman Empire. For the United States, we are the world's only superpower. So if we decline financially, it changes everything. If we decline financially, it changes what we can spend on military.

It changes what technology we can invest in. It changes the value of our dollar and the value of our property, of our stock market to foreign countries. So any decline in our power, our status, our economy is significant. It's even more significant when you consider that our enemies are increasing.

China is on the rise. So now not only are we decreasing in speed, but they are increasing in speed, which closes the gap between the two. When two countries reach parity, when they reach equality, that's the worst situation for everybody.

I understand that there are people out there who want equality and want fairness, and that's bullshit. They don't actually want that, because if they think critically about it, they'll understand that when parity is reached, conflict is inevitable. So as the United States slows down, as we lose money, lose industry, lose trading partners, lose influence around the world,

and other countries increase, then we're just getting closer to significant conflict.

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You're 70% off with the code peers. And it's a complete unknown to all of us. We don't, we won't know what AI is capable of until it executes it Faster than we can even imagine it and by then it's too late and by then it's too late And that's just another perfect example of you know, the decline of what we have Because we are losing our focus on what has always made us great, right? The United States has always been great because of a middle class. It's always been great because of its innovation it's always been great because it a middle class. It's always been great because of its innovation. It's always been great because it's

able to lead through freedoms. And there's challenges to all of those values that are impacting us significantly.

All right, come on. You're president of the United States. Top three things you'd do to stop the decline.

So I actually wouldn't do things that much differently than Donald Trump. I see a lot of what Donald Trump is doing and I understand why it's aggravating and frustrating to people, but I also see the strategic value of it. We need to slow down China's ability to create a modern technological economy because if that is how we became the world's superpower.

And if China creates an effective technical empire, then there's at least competition between the two of us economically. So all the trade conflict and all the, everything he's doing with tariffs is really just to slow down China's economic rise. And if we can bury them in their own problems, then that's exactly what they're doing to us trying to bury us in our own problems.

So I really support what he's doing there. I don't think that we need to be worrying so much about the war on drugs. I understand the consequences of the fentanyl epidemic. I don't think that it's something that needs government resources at this point in time. I think those government resources could go into other things. We also have to fix the economy without a doubt. Our currency is losing value not just because we're creating more of it, but because we're making it less attractive to the world. When we froze Russian assets as part of the Ukraine-Russia conflict, all that did was send a message to all foreign

countries to get their money the fuck out of US banks, because otherwise we're going to take it if we don't like you. That was a major mistake by the Biden administration. We need to find a way to woo that stuff back. The president's a big job and they always

end up with grey hair, so I'm not in a rush. You are planning to leave the country in the spring of 2027. Why so specific on the timing? Where are you going to go? And apparently, you're going to change your extremely iconic appearance.

I'm hoping that at some point, the message is more powerful than the hair, but I guess we'll test it this December. So the specificity around the timeframe is really because I'm trying to show people the power of transparency. We live in a world where influencers

are not who they are in person as they are on screen. And one of the things I've always tried to do is make sure that I'm very real, very genuine, both on camera and off camera, and I am who I am. I've been complimented on that point by the people who have met me,

but when I talk about leaving in the spring of 27, it's because that is really when we are planning. We had planned for the spring of 2030, and then we brought it up to the spring of 26, and then we found out that that was just not possible. That's real life.

People plan to move all the time. But the reason for our moving is only partially tied to the United States and the United States' turmoil. Yes, the United States is going through what I call its own adolescence, its puberty. It's deciding what it wants to be when it grows up. It's deciding what it's going to gender identify as.

Right.

Right.

But in addition to that, my children are eight and 12, and they're children in that United States, in the United States where everybody's politicized. They can't go to school without having people parroting propaganda at them from one of the two extremes. And it's difficult to counter that.

Do you know where you're gonna go?

We have three really solid ideas and then we're using a lot of other noise to distract people from knowing.

You won't tell anybody where you end up.

I'll text you if you want to know.

Actually, I'd rather not know. Because if it ever gets out, you can't blame me. It's really interesting. One of the other things I found fascinating about your book is you talk about how you taught yourself to lie when training as an aspiring intelligence officer.

And this week, you actually analyzed an interview from one of my shows, an interview with the actor Armie Hammer, when I asked him if he's a cannibal. So let's take a look at the clip that you analyzed. Three of them.

You just lived to obey me and be my slave, you said to her, I will own you as my soul, my brain, my spirit, my body. Would you come and be my property till you die? If I wanted to cut off one of your toes and keep it with me in my pocket So I always had a piece of you in my possession

I'm a hundred percent a cannibal. I want to eat you. It's scary to admit. I've never admitted that before. It was that stuff

Right.

Let's first of all address that elephant in the room. Are you a cannibal?

No. You know what you have to do to be a cannibal? You have to have actually eaten someone.

Have you ever eaten any human flesh? No. Not a question I thought I'd ever ask him. Not a question I'd ever thought I'd have to answer, by the way, but no, never. What do you feel that a large swathe of the public just think Armie Hammer is a cannibal?

If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

So, was he telling me the truth?

No, he was lying to you. Really? Absolutely. But he hasn't actually in human flesh though. We don't know what he personally identifies as cannibalism We don't know whether it's related to consuming energy. Maybe it's biting. Maybe it's drinking blood who has any idea except army, right? but the thing that's so fascinating to me and I'm gonna

Kiss your ass for just a second. Your questions were so fucking good, man Your questions were so good through a lens of specifically being able to identify deceptive behavior in the target. I'm guessing it's just come from years of practice. I'm guessing you didn't practice your questions before you sat with him.

But the one that's the most powerful to me is you asked him how he felt.

Yeah.

That's called in strategic espionage, that's called a feelings question. When you ask a feelings-based question, it immediately gives you a window into whether the person is using their reactive brain to answer honestly, or their creative brain to come up with a fitting solution.

The indicators in that response from him, not only to that question.

Well, I'll tell you what, let's watch it again, and as we go, point out the things that if you were a CIA agent right now and you were watching this, what raised Ray's flag? Let's talk over it as we watch it.

You got it.

You just live to obey me and be my slave.

So right there's the first thing. You see him fiddling with his water and fiddling with his sleeve. He is physically showing his discomfort. comfort and you just brought up that you're going to talk about this topic that for sure he knows is coming. So he's getting dry mouth from the nervousness. That's why he's drinking his water.

Body, would you come and be my property till you die?

He's taking a sip of water as he prepares. Now watch what happens next. He's gonna start kinetically actually swiveling back and forth in his chair. His nervous energy is actually building up. He knows he has to prepare a story. He has to prepare to react in a way that's been choreographed. So you see the shaking head and the shaking in the full body in the swivel chair.

You can also tell by the way his arms are being held. He's crossed his arms underneath the table. That's a closing body posture. A closing body posture demonstrates that you're feeling threatened. And he's leaning back to give himself distance.

These are subconscious indicators that show he is not preparing to tell you the truth. He is preparing to tell you some other version of the truth. You know what you have to do to be a cannibal? He didn't answer your question. So here, here's a very interesting technique because he responded to your question with a question. It wasn't enough to just say, no I am NOT a cannibal. Wasn't enough to just say, no and I reject these claims.

Instead, he uses almost levity or humor to counter your question with another question. And that's an escape technique whenever somebody's feeling under the pressure. Not a question I'd ever thought I'd have to answer, by the way.

But no.

And even through that levity there, you still see him keeping the distance and keeping the closed posture.

I think Armie Hammer is a cannibal.

There is the feeling question, and you could see how long it took him to respond compared to the pace that he was responding to your previous questions.

So interesting. I mean, it's body language. You get trained. It's an art form, right, to work it out. Funny enough, when I've done thousands of interviews, I can normally tell when I think people are lying. You can pick it up.

You just know when people are lying. And you can tell sometimes. But then sometimes I'm really surprised. I've been with some very skilled liars who just pull the wool over my eyes. And if they're really good at it, you know, I defy almost even you to work it out.

It's true. Skilled liars are a rarity, I would argue, but when you come across them, it makes you second guess yourself.

They're kind of, they tend, I've interviewed genuine psychopaths for crime series. I've gone into prisons in America where, you know, terrible people are there, and they're genuine psychopaths. So they're incapable of guilt or remorse or empathy or any of those things. And they're fascinating people to interview

because they can commit appalling crime, and then just two seconds later, it's like nothing happened. Yeah, they can eat, and they go to sleep. Yeah, they just have none of those feelings. But they're very difficult, really, to sort of pin down at all, because they don't really understand any sense of shame or guilt or anything.

So there's none of the sweating going out of the, because they don't feel that. They're not feeling it. So I found that interesting. So I want to end by, I'm going to give you three statements about me.

Two of these are true, Ugh. And one is a lie. I get this wrong all the time. You've got to find the lie.

OK.

I got married to Paris Hilton in a Las Vegas chapel. I was voted the UK's sexiest man. I once flew in a fighter jet with the NBA star Dennis Rodman.

And one of these is true or one of these is false?

One of them is false.

Only one of those is false?

Two of those is true, incredibly.

Let's see. This is a shot in the dark, Piers, because you were very controlled and very measured in how you said each of those three statements. So I'm going to go with you did not marry Paris Hilton in a Las Vegas hotel.

Wrong.

Ah!

Lucky Paris!

I'll give you a slight thing. It wasn't legally binding, but I did actually marry Paris. Have we got the clip? I did actually marry Paris Hilton in a Las Vegas chapel. And in fact, the witnesses were an Elvis lookalike,

a Dean Martin lookalike, a Marilyn Monroe lookalike. She went fully on board for this, turned up in a dazzling dress, had a little dog. I got to kiss the bride. Wow. Yeah, it really happened.

And I'm hoping that you were also voted the sexiest man.

I was voted twice the UK's sexiest man. I was as baffled as everybody else, but you know, who's to say the women of Britain are wrong? I have met Dennis Rodman. In fact, I was on Celebrity Apprentice with him when I went back in as one of Donald Trump's advisers

after I won the first season of it, and Rodman was one of the contestants and was hilarious. But that's the closest I've been to Dennis Rodman. It certainly didn't happen on a fighter jet. So that was the lie. But it's fascinating. But maybe it just means I'm a good liar.

I'll take that for sure.

Andrew, brilliant to talk to you. The book is fascinating. Shadow Cell, an insider account of the New Spy War. You talk about this in such a riveting way. It's a really fascinating read. You're an ex-covert CIA intelligence officer, US Air Force combat veteran. You know what you're

talking about and you talk about it. Great to see you and if this is the last time I interview you before you disappear, it's been great knowing you. I appreciate it, Chris. Take care. If you're stressed about back taxes, miss the April deadline, or your books are a mess, well don't wait. The IRS is cracking down. Penalties add up fast, 5% per month and up to 25% for not filing. Tax Network USA can help.

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