Joe Rogan Experience #2368 - Michael Button

My day Joe Rogan podcast my night all day

Hey, man, nice to meet you man pleasure. I love your channel man. It's really great You're really doing some really interesting videos. When did you get started?

Thanks. Well, I only started the YouTube less than a year ago. That's crazy. It's been a bit of a wild ride

I don't even know how I found it. It was like one of them YouTube recommends things. It just popped up and I don't remember what.

All right.

Yeah, it was cool. I mean, yeah, I started just under a year ago, but no one started watching until like March and then I think you see me just after. Very happy to be here today, very excited to be in Austin. And yeah, looking forward to talk about some ancient history.

So did you start off on a traditional academic journey and then sort of get sidetracked into a YouTube career? Like, how did this work?

Yeah, basically. So I studied ancient history at university for four years. And I've always been interested in history. I've done history all the way through. Like I was fascinated about history as a kid and got to the stage in my life where it was, you know, thinking about going to university.

So I thought I'll do ancient history at university and study there for four years, graduated, all of that kind of stuff. But there came a point during my degree where I was kind of, you know, a little bit, I didn't quite agree with the kind of high level ideas regarding the timeline of history and what we're taught about our ancient past. And it wasn't that I disputed

anything that I'd been taught and I have like great respect for the people that I met at university and my professors and I don't dispute anything that we were taught actually on the course but it was more the kind of high level macro perspective of history that I found myself having more and more questions about. And yeah, so-

What bothered you?

Like, what were the questions?

It was kind of the big questions regarding the origins of civilization and how deep civilization goes and how complex human behavior, you know, I thought went way back further into history than what we were being taught. And I wasn't too, I just didn't buy this idea that nothing happened for like vast stretch of time because it was during my course that they found the modern humans.

They made this discovery in Morocco in 2017 or 2018, I think. And that was when I was at university.

Was that Denis Ovens?

No, no, Homo Sapiens.

Which one was that? So I can't remember, it's called like the Jebel Irud site or something like that, but they were modern Homo Sapien remains. They thought they were Neanderthal initially because they were so old.

How old were they?

They're 315,000 years old. So they're super old. And yeah, they thought they were initially Neanderthals of this age, but then they discovered a few more and they classified them as Homo sapiens. And when I saw that, I was like, how is this not kicking up more of a fuss? Because before them, the oldest Homo sapiens before that it was like 100,000 years old. So this discovery pushed back the age of our species by another third, like 100,000 years.

So I saw that and I was thinking like, how are we still basing our kind of idea of history around the fact that nothing happened for 310,000 years and then everything happened in like the last 10,000 years, since the Neolithic revolution. I just thought that was odd because, you know, we've been in this anatomically modern form for so long,

and yet we were being taught that nothing had happened until the last 10,000 years, and that just didn't make sense to me. So that's kind of where I started thinking about it, and then we did this module at university, I remember, called, it was called something like cataclysms or something. And it was all about how in recorded history, natural disaster had a big impact on human

societies and stuff like that. And how it small, like tiny changes in climate could massively disrupt human civilization and bring them all crashing, crashing down. And the case study they used was something called the late Bronze Age collapse. Have you ever heard of the late Bronze Age? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it's when all these like powerful influential civilizations at the kind of peak of human progress around 1000 BC all simultaneously came crashing down and no one was quite sure why it was. But the best theory we have is that it's like a kind of combination of climate factors which led to trade disruption, which led to societal unrest. And then all these empires like the Hittite Empire, the Syrian Empire, the palaces of Mycenaean Greece, the Egyptian New Kingdom, all within a 20 to 30, 40 year period all came crashing down at the exact same time.

And I remember being hooked by that. I was like, that's so crazy. We don't even know why this happened, but it was like a half degree change in climate. And so I remember starting to research how bad a climate had been during history and how bad it had been, like, these big climatic episodes had been during prehistory. And I started thinking like, wow, if that had caused all these civilizations to collapse, just a tiny half degree change in climate, which caused drought, which led to those civilizations

collapsing. Some of the stuff that had been happening during prehistory was so much worse than that. And that got me thinking, like, how do we know that sophisticated human culture hadn't flourished, you know, 10,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago, 100,000 years ago, 200,000 years ago, and collapsed due to climate change or natural disaster, volcanoes, comet impacts, anything like that. And that's kind of what set me on the journey, that along with the, you know, the discovery

of the remains in Morocco. And that really got me thinking about the story we've told regarding our past and how I wasn't quite sure. And yeah, that's kind of what made me initially kind of break away from the traditional timeline that we were being taught.

Trevor Burrus The term prehistory is weird, isn't it? Because it's like, according to what, what we find yeah, you know I mean, how do we know what historical if there was a great cataclysm like if the Younger Dryas impact theory is correct What you know how much history would be written down what would be left? How would you find it? What would you know? Yeah, you know we're we're That's one of the things that disturbs me the most is the arrogance that some academics have to having a definitive understanding of the exact timeline of agriculture,

civilization, and then modern humans.

Yeah, it annoys me. I feel like academics as opposed to the alternative historians are kind of more saying we don't know but here's a potential hypothetical scenario that could be possible. Whereas I feel like more mainstream for want of a better word, I don't really like using that because I don't think there's such thing as a mainstream. It's not like there's a group of people that will collectively decide, but some particularly vocal mainstream kind of historians and scientists seem to claim to know absolute truth about the past. And that's just stupid. Like how can anyone know about what happened 100,000 years ago or 200,000 years ago?

And it kind of gets me a little bit riled up because at the end of the day, none of us know what happened back then. So I think a lot more possibilities are, you know, possible than what many people appreciate. And yeah.

Did you ever see there was a video documentary back in the day, something about the mysteries of the Sphinx. And there was this archaeologist that was mocking Graham Hancock's ideas and Dr. Robert Shock's ideas about the timeline saying, you know, talking about things that existed pre 10,000 years and He was saying what ever it was like laughing. What evidence is there of any? civilization from 10,000 years ago this was Literally, I think around the same time that they discovered to go Beckley Tepe Yeah, like that this guy was mocking it. I think

Slightly thereafter they discovered gobekli Tepe, which threw everything into a tizzy because now you've got something that was absolutely covered, they believe intentionally, somewhere in the neighborhood of 11,000 years ago.

Yeah, I think Gobekli Tepe is the biggest kind of smoking gun, at least for the idea that civilization is older and more complex than the traditional model suggests, because obviously, as you say, it's like 12,000 years old and it's massive megalithic pillars. I mean, you know about Gbekeli Tepe, probably most people listening to this will know about Gbekeli Tepe, but it's such a clear sign that sophisticated human culture was present way earlier than the conventional timeline suggests. I think that at least should

throw a monkey wrench into a lot of these people's ideas regarding human civilization and when it began because clearly the toolkit for civilization existed 12,000 years ago. Why couldn't it have existed a little bit earlier than that? Why, if it existed then, did it then take another 6,000 years for it to emerge in ancient Sumer, which is the kind of traditional thought to be the earliest civilization. So, Quebecly Tepe is fascinating. I love it. It's a really interesting site. I think it will one day be classed as civilization.

I'm almost certain that when enough time passes, we'll kind of look at that. Because it's a whole culture, the whole Tash-Tapela culture, there's like 14 sites at least and they all have this kind of megalithic architecture, they all have shared symbolism, they all clearly connected. It's crazy how it's not defined as anything other than hunter-gatherers. Even if you think that hunter-gatherers built Gobekli Tepe, then you need to massively update the definition of what a hunter-gatherer is, because clearly they had surplus. They weren't just building these sites in their spare time. And yeah, it's a truly paradigm shifting site.

But I mean, everyone kind of knows about Gobekli Tepe now. Not everyone, but also as spectacular as what they've discovered so far is, they have only unearthed 5% of it, which is even more bizarre. Because you've got so much stuff that's underground, you have no idea what's on those pillars. You know, there's speculation that one of the pillars from Gobekli Tepe that is unearthed is some sort of a calendar of events. And they believe that it depicts some sort of a disaster, like that these, whatever, how they're making these

images to be associated with either an impact or something, but there's a timeline that's inscribed in these pillars.

Yeah, there's like a study that was written or a paper that was written and they think it's the pillar 43, I think it, it's kind of like a cosmic calendar and it's like a almost a prediction model of an impact that could happen or already has happened and it's like a warning for the future. I mean that is still disputed but I mean there's been good research that's done into that that suggests that's what it is and it's certainly a site that has cosmic alignments and has been built with the stars in mind, which is something that

we can say about so many ancient sites around the world, which is another thing that isn't really considered by, you know, quote unquote mainstream archaeology, perhaps as much as it should be. So yeah, it's a fascinating site and I really think it displays a lot about how human ingenuity and civilization, I mean, people get a bit stuck with the word civilization because we have this very narrow definition of what civilization

is. It's basically based on the old model of Mesopotamia, which is ancient Sumer. Of course, that was the earliest known civilization for so long, we kind of constructed this whole idea about what a civilization is purely based on Mesopotamia. But I don't see why that has to be what civilization is purely based on Mesopotamia. But I don't see why that has to be what civilization is because that was just one civilization and

just because that was the earliest one we'd found for a long time and still is thought of as such doesn't mean that that's the only way that humanity can flourish because humans are so adaptable. We do so many different things and we're clever in different ways and we, you know we change to different environments. I think that definition has really kept a lot of people kind of boxed in when thinking about how sophisticated human culture could flourish in different places, in different

environments, and with different pressures. I think that's kind of forced people to not consider what other possibilities are out there.

I think it's even more fascinating if you consider the fact that ancient Sumer and you know that part of the world from about 6,000 years ago is where they're sort of hanging their hat saying that this is the birthplace of civilization. But if you do have this evidence of Gobekli Tepe, and then we are talking about some sort of an ancient civilization that lived 12,000 years ago, like what happened? What happened? Like, what was the gap between that and then it took 6,000 years before they

started civilization back up again, sort of a reimagining of civilization, which makes you really, at least makes me really consider the possibility of a cataclysm because the people that survived, whatever they would be, you know, I mean, they would probably be living off the land, they'd probably be barely getting by

and barbaric for a long, long time. And if it really took 6,000 years to kind of like settle down again, that is fascinating to

me. Yeah. And it all ties into this idea that we've had that agriculture leads to civilization, but there's that bizarre thing that, you know, agriculture appears in multiple different places at pretty much the exact same time all over the world. That's never made sense to me because if agriculture was such a kind of vital invention

for civilization to flourish, then why did no one invent it for, you know, 310,000 years? And then in South America, in Mesopotamia, in ancient China, and you could argue there's other different places that say there's like South America and there's Central America. I mean, you could argue that's potentially connected, but a lot of people say it isn't. So how can agriculture, if it's such an incredible invention, be invented by multiple people at the same time, but no one else thought of it before?

It doesn't make sense to me.

It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense they wouldn't figure out seeds. How do you not know eventually that these seeds are dropping and then you see seedlings that are coming out of the ground? That seems pretty logical and an easy connection. And then you'd say, oh, well, if we gather these seeds and go plant them over there,

you know, maybe we can get some fruit trees over here. Oh, look at that. It worked. That doesn't ... That seems like you'd figure that out in one lifetime.

I know, but I think the idea is, the idea always has been that it's because of the climate, right? So because of the Holocene, which began around 12,000 years ago, as we came out of that and we had kind of stable climate conditions that we still live in today, that's what enabled the invention of agriculture, right? But then the question I always ask is, well, what about all the other warm periods that have come in the past? If, as the idea is that, you know, stable climate led to agriculture, then why couldn't such a thing have happened

in the Eemian period 120,000 years ago? There's been four distinct warm periods that have lasted for like over 10,000 years, while modern humans have been around, at least. And obviously, these Morocco remains of Homo sapiens, it's unlikely they're the earliest Homo sapiens that ever lived. They're just the earliest we found. So we could be even older than that.

So considering we've been through four distinct warm periods before the Holocene, and if the argument is that the Holocene was what led to the invention of agriculture due to the stable climate, then why couldn't it have happened in the earlier warm periods? That's the question I've always asked myself and been fascinated by.

And the real problem is there would be very little evidence, if any.

Yeah, so this is the preservation problem, and this is something I talk about in my videos. So I kind of always ask the question, like, what if human culture had flourished in the Eemian, for example, which was from 130 to 115,000 years ago, what realistically would survive? Because it's such a vast, vast length of time that it's really unlikely, at least as far as I can tell, and obviously I'm not a scientist, I'm not like a, you know, a materialist, I'm not any kind of, I'm just a guy, I'm not even a historian technically.

As far as I can tell, it's extremely hard for any materials, but even our modern materials in our huge civilization, 8 billion people, industrial society, sending rockets to space, all the crazy stuff that we're doing. Even us, if we disappear tomorrow, I think it would be extremely unlikely that pretty much anything would survive when you get up to these huge timescales of like a hundred thousand years. So I've been doing quite a lot of research into this, because I obviously don't want to

get things wrong and put falsehoods out there and mislead people. I don't want to look like a dickhead in front of millions of people or whatever. So I've been trying to like, you know, debunk myself or play devil's advocate to myself on this point because you know, that's the best way to make your argument airtight and no one's really out there debunking me. I don't know if that's because I'm right because like no one knows me. Maybe that would change after a show like this, but I've been really looking into the kind of degradation of modern materials as much as I can and trying to work out how much would survive from a civilization like ours if we disappeared tomorrow in 100,000 years time.

So if you- Right, like some place like London or Manhattan, what would be left in 100,000 years?

Yeah, of like an actual modern city. And the scary truth is, it's almost nothing. Like there are- Really? As far as I can tell and also cement buildings that were just deteriorating. They would go like concrete would crack and you get CO2 in there and freeze the weathering and over these huge time scales of like 5000 years, 10,000 years, they would just crumble down into dust and be absolutely imperceptible.

Just 10,000 years.

I think so. Obviously these I mean I'm just doing this off the top of my head, I haven't got any notes in front of me or anything, but as far as I could tell from my research, it's going to be a few like 10,000 years, 20,000 years max.

It's not going to get up to these timesc like in 100,000 years, it's almost nothing. I would say it was nothing, to be honest. Nothing. And it would just get overrun by trees again.

Yeah, because there's just, it's just such an incredible amount of time that all these materials that we build with are just going to corrode and they're going to rust away if they're metals, they're going to oxidize, they're going to flake until they're just tiny little fragments that just disperse in the sedimentary record and they're just invisible to see. Same with concrete, same with even things like glass. I've heard a lot of people say that glass would potentially survive because glass is a very durable material and glass would survive a long time, but glass in the form of a human-made

recognizable artifact isn't going to survive in that form. It's going to get crushed, it's going to break away into tiny little nanofragments, into silica grains that are just invisible in the kind of archaeological record when you get up to these huge levels of time. And yeah, I mean, I would say almost nothing would survive that long. And again, with the caveat that I'm just some random dude who's investigated this on the internet and researched this myself, not a scientist.

If anyone out there is a material scientist, I'd encourage them to reach out to me. But as far as I can tell, there are very few things that could possibly survive that long. I mean, we're pretty crazy fucking apes, like we do crazy shit. So things like nuclear weapons, like we test nuclear weapons in the atmosphere. You could argue if we knew when to look and what to look for, we could see traces of plutonium in the atmosphere from our nuclear weapons testing, or you could see our nuclear waste deposits. Or things like carved stone, because stone obviously survives a very long time.

Human carved stone, you'd be able to find that. But we do find that. We find stone tools. But just because ancient humans used stone tools doesn't mean they didn't use anything else. It's just stone is the most likely thing to survive. And the crazy thing is, Joe, do you know how many sites we have, homo sapien sites from more than 100,000 years ago?

How many?

Nine. We have nine sites, nine glimpses, nine snapshots into over 200,000 years of history, nine moments in time. And we use that to extrapolate out what every single human was doing.

Nine globally.

Nine globally, yeah.

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And where are they mostly?

Africa.

And so what do they find? Like what is the evidence?

It's usually caves and it's usually just, you know, remains of fire pits and stone tools. And that's kind of it. And so we see that and we think, okay, they just lived in caves and used stone tools.

Right.

But it's nine sites, nine moments in time for 200,000 years.

Well, the problem is there's people that essentially live like that right now in some parts of the world, which is really weird, right? Because we always want to think about Technology and advancement of civilization being sort of universal, but it's really not You know, there's people that are living a subsistence lifestyle right now. There's people that are Uncontacted right now at the same time as as Elon Musk sending rockets to Mars and shit. Right.

I mean, that's the weirdest ones is when you see them get invaded in the Amazon, when you see them contact these people and they're pointing bows and arrows at helicopters and you know, they're naked.

Yeah, exactly. We're so adaptable. Humans can do so many different things. As you say, right now we're sending rockets to space and people are living in very traditional ways of life. And that just because we find traditional ways of life in, I repeat, nine sites to cover

200,000 years, in my view, that's just what we can see. That's just the only, that kind of points to my point regarding what would possibly survive because if you think of all the human lives, stories, cultures that have potentially existed for our whole species' existence, if we only have nine little glimpses from, and to be fair that nine is, you could say it's up to 15 because some sites are debated, but either way it's a tiny, tiny, tiny amount of human, you know, signs of human life. Just because in that

fragment, in that snapshot, in that sliver, all we see is some humans with stone tools in caves, doesn't mean that nothing else was happening.

Trevor Burrus Well, a good piece of evidence to that, that would point in that direction is Egypt. Because Egypt, even if you accept the conventional timeline of Egypt, which is 2500 BC for the Great Pyramid. Go look at the rest of the world at 2,500 BC. You don't see anything like that. Nothing even close.

Yeah, they were clearly, even if you kind of look at the conventional model of history, the ancient Egyptians were wildly ahead of everyone. Everyone. It's just so weird. So weird. And that's if you, and the conventional model doesn't really give us any explanations of

how they were doing what they were doing.

Trevor Burrus And they arrogantly dismiss any other explanations, which is really weird. When you're talking about these immense structures that are baffling, absolutely baffling to anybody who's being honest. What is your take on these Italian researchers that are looking at the tomography and they're looking at these things that they believe are underneath the Great Pyramid and some other structures in Egypt.

Yeah, the kind of, what's it called, like SARS, Toppler. I mean, I don't know. I'm always a little bit suspicious when you make sensationalist claims with new technology and that doesn't mean it's wrong. I just, that just confuses my-

Yeah, you have to be suspicious because it's bonkers. It's crazy. Yeah, you have to be, because it's bonkers. What they're saying is two kilometers deep underneath the Great Pyramid, there's structures, and there's hundreds of meters of these pylons, these pillars that are in uniform positions with some sort of a coil wrapped around them. What is that? Is that real?

And they reproduce it in multiple different scans, but I don't know what they're seeing. I don't understand the technology. I understand where the errors could be. What could possibly cause it to glitch like that?

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I would love it to be true, obviously, because you know-

I would love it.

Can you imagine?

That's the problem. The problem is the same problem that I have with UFOs and everything else. You want it to be true. A hundred percent. So it really clouds my judgment. And then I have to get my analytical mind to say, shut up. Let's look at this honestly.

But I mean, I think there's definitely something below the Giza plateau. That's always been written about in ancient sources and these kind of scans and then people kind of, you have stories of people going down into labyrinths that aren't accepted by Egyptology. And there's definitely massive mystery surrounding Giza and the construction of the pyramids and what could potentially be below the pyramids. And this kind of new pyramid scan project has the potential, I think, to make big progress

in understanding what is below Giza. But I don't know, until there's better data out there, I'm not going to jump to any conclusions and declare that this is evidence of a lost advanced technology civilization or anything

like that. No, you can't. But I am so excited about just the possibility that they're right because if they are right that throw That's the greatest monkey wrench into history that's ever existed because explain away that Yeah with ancient people with stone tools and or copper like explain that away

They probably try me because it already doesn't make sense They're their explanation for the construction of the pyramids being wooden sledges and stone chisels or whatever they say. It already doesn't make sense. It's already so ridiculous that I wouldn't even be surprised if they tried to explain away these.

Well, it'll discredit them because the problem is if it does indicate that the pyramid is something other than a tomb, you know.

There's not, I don't even see any evidence that the great pyramid at Giza. I mean, what's the evidence that that was a tomb? I mean, I don't think I've ever found a body in there. No, it's just a chamber which they've called the King's Chamber, right? I mean, I'm not an expert in ancient Egypt by any respect But it's always baffled me that they're so determined that the pyramids are tombs just because some later pyramids have had, you know, mummies and pharaohs and sarcophagi

found inside them. That doesn't mean anything. And that doesn't mean that they built it. That also could mean that the pharaoh decided that it was his and wanted to be buried inside of it. And it had existed for thousands of years before they ever even got there.

And you can find bodies in like, you know, buildings today. And that doesn't mean the purpose of that building was to be a tomb. It's just buried there.

It's a weird assumption. It's a very weird assumption. And did you ever read any Christopher?

Christopher Dunn.

Yeah.

Christopher Dunn's work. I know a bit. I haven't read his book, but I know a bit about it. It's interesting. I mean, he's like a serious guy, isn't he? He's an engineer. Exactly. And he has quite serious theories that- He thinks it's a power plant. Yeah. Which would be crazy, wouldn't it?

Especially if you add into that the Graham Hancock's ideas and some of these other people's

ideas that perhaps some of these structures are far older.

Well, the kind of Orion correlation and the Sphinx-

Also the fact that the deeper you go into the sand, the more sophisticated the building techniques are. Yeah. That gets weird. Like larger stones. Like what happened?

The whole of like ancient Egypt and the Sahara Desert in general just doesn't make sense to me because when you look at the Sahara Desert and the fact that it was green for 9,000 years and then it stopped being green at precisely the time that we're told ancient Egypt emerged, that doesn't make sense. That defies how civilization works.

Why would a civilization only emerge after the climate got worse? That doesn't make sense at all.

And so little research done in sub-Saharan Africa where they've actually gone into the ground and done large-scale research of these immense areas.

Nothing, nothing. The Sahara Desert is vast and obviously covered in sand and extremely hot, extremely difficult to survey, politically unstable, and there's basically been no archaeological work done across the whole Sahara Desert. It's massive. It's like the whole of North Africa right down to, I mean, it's massive.

You could fit the United States in there.

You could fit anything in there, like a whole preceding civilization for 9,000 years leading up to ancient Egypt. Like it's the perfect place. It's right by Mesopotamia. It's right by Egypt. And yet we have this blank spot for the 9,000 years before the development of civilization, which is kind of also the gap between, I mean, it's

a little bit less than this, but the gap between Quebec-Litepe and the birth of civilization. We have this huge area which would have been perfect for civilization, full of rivers, lakes, grasslands, perfect climate, and it's just missing.

Also abundant resources where they could establish a stable civilization because they had so much food and they weren't being attacked so they could kind of set up shop and figure some things out over a long

period of time. Yeah. So my theory is that things were happening in the Sahara Desert when it was green, in the Green Sahara for those 9,000 years. And then because it was really quick, that's what I don't think people realize is that when the Sahara Desert turned from, you turned from green lush paradise, whatever you want to call it, to a desert, it was like a few

centuries. It's called rapid desertification and it flipped, not overnight obviously, but in a few centuries compared to 9,000 years, it's a rapid change. And for any kind of culture that was living there, you wouldn't have noticed it straight away, but in 50 years, you'd be like, fuck, it's getting a bit hot here,

do you know what I mean? Like shit is going on. And then suddenly, I think maybe people migrated to the last stretch of green that was still available to them, which was the Nile River. And then the kind of survivors

or the migratory populations developed around the Nile River and using the kind of experience and knowledge that they had from their lives and the kind of history of their cultures in the Green Sahara period, that is what led to ancient Egypt. I mean, that's just a...

Well, it's also just an assumption that ancient Egypt didn't exist alongside that, or even previous to that, which is also possible, especially when you consider what Robert Chalk thinks about the erosion, the water erosion in the Temple of the Sphinx?

Yeah, the kind of explanation away of that also never made sense to me that it's wind and sand because when you see pictures of the Sphinx, even from when they kind of found it in Napoleonic times, it's buried in sand. And there's records from the Egyptians themselves who, you know, took, excavated it effectively because it was covered in sand. So if it quickly gets covered in sand, how could it be eroded by wind and sand if it doesn't take very long for it to, you know, kind of get filled up with sand?

Then how does wind and sand erosion even count? I've never seen anyone kind of explain that away.

Well, it's the walls that are the most fascinating to me because the deep fissures that clearly look like rainfall. It looks like something that water does over thousands of years.

Yeah.

You know, and when you- Those whales that were, the valley of the whales? Yeah.

It's just about, I don't know how many miles south, but it's south of Cairo. That's bonkers too. That's crazy. They find whales. Hundreds of whales. Hundreds of whales in the desert.

That's so crazy. Look at that image. That's so nuts. That is so nuts. Some of them had teeth and toes. So crazy.

So crazy. And then it makes you wonder, like, how did those bones survive? Like, why are they there? Like, how quickly did they die? How quickly did they get covered up by sediment that they could find them all these years

later? Because that's the weird thing about fossils and bones in general, is that most of them you're never going to find because they get eaten, they deteriorate, they're gone. It's very difficult to make a fossil. When you think about our quote unquote fossil record, it's really weird because it's hard to make a fossil. You know, when you think about our, you know, quote unquote fossil record, it's really weird because it's hard to make a fossil.

So we're dealing with a very small amount of beings that get turned into a fossil. And that is what we're using as our understanding of like life.

Yeah, yeah. It's weird. It is weird. It's so limited. I'm not sure when was the... do you know when the Sahara was covered in water? I'm not even sure when that was. I mean some people say that there's like a mass flood during the kind of Younger Dryas period which I think is... I think they're

talking about millions of years ago for these bones. How old are these whale bones supposed to be? But I think millions of years ago it's assumed that it was completely underwater, right? So are we talking like Pangaea times? Like what are we talking about?

But even not too long ago, like, you know, kind of 12,000 years ago, whatever, they had these massive river systems, like the Tamanrasset River system.

Here it is. 40 million years old.

Yeah.

40 million years old yeah 40 million years old

Oh my god primitive whales

Primitive whales documenting. How do you say that word?

Cetacean how do you say that word?

Cetacean transition is that I say it

Cetacean transition to marine life

Cerinians and reptiles as well as shark teeth

from the Ghenahem Formation 40 to 41 million years ago. The strata in, I won't say that either, Wad al-Hitan belongs to middle Eocene epoch and it contains extensive vertebrae fossils within a 200 kilometer area. Fossils are present in high numbers and often show excellent quality of preservation. The most conspicuous fossils are skeletons

and bones of whales and sea cows.

What's a sea cow?

Oh, I don't know.

What's a manatee?

You ever see the precursor to whales, like where whales came from?

No, where did they come from?

It was an ancient animal that was like a, almost like a hoofed wolf what see see? No, I mean, oh, they were and animal. That's why they breathe air. Of course that mammals on there. Yeah, that's weird It's super weird. It's super weird. It was some animal that supposedly lived on land and As real freaky looking almost kind of like dog like yeah, and that thing Eventually came away. I just like swimming

I'm gonna go back and then one day it said I'm never going back to the land. It's filled with assholes Yeah, I'm just gonna live out here in the ocean where all you have to contend with this article calls it the god of death whale Wow, that's what it looked like. That's what it looked like. That's pretty terrifying. But there's some images of it on land, some depictions. Yeah, that's what it looked like.

That freaky thing was what whales came from. That thing walked around the ground and then eventually said, eh.

If it's 40 million years ago, is that what those skeletons are then, maybe?

Interesting, some of them maybe, right? Because they do know that it was when whales walked in Egypt.

Wow.

I was watching, I think, I don't remember whose podcast it was. I wish I could remember. But they were talking to some guy that found definitive evidence of dinosaurs in Egypt. So if you go back far enough, there were dinosaurs living in that part of the world as well. What's that one image you just saw right there with the mouth open?

Yeah, that one. That's crazy looking. Prehistoric whale ancestor. Look at that thing. Whoa. That's crazy.

Yeah, this, here's the sea cows.

What?

This image says a prehistoric sea cow was killed by a prehistoric croc.

Wooooow.

Then eaten by a tiger shark.

I don't know.

Boy.

Life is hard where there's no doors. That's the problem with the ocean. There's no doors. There's nowhere to hide. So it's just constant things eating things in this 3d space Well, they can go up and down and side to side and that's just nature, isn't it?

My is killing everything else. Yes

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We made it.

But we figured out doors. We did. We figured out walls and doors and that changed the game.

But when did we do that, Joe? That's the question. That is the question. Because a lot of people would claim to think, and the kind of consensus always is, that we didn't do that until 12,000 years ago. We didn't settle down and form permanent communities until the Neolithic revolution. And I think that's one of the major paradigms,

if you like, that we have regarding our past that simply doesn't make sense in light of new evidence. And I just...

What is that evidence that they found of wood construction from far longer than they thought?

Yeah, this is the Colombo structure. And this is something I talk about a lot in my videos because I think it's a crazy find, and I don't understand why it's not kicking up more of a fuss. Like, if I'm the guy that has to kick up the fuss about it,

then I'll be that guy because, basically, the idea has always been that humans were nomadic hunter-gatherers that moved with the seasons and lived in caves or just kind of walked around for all of our history until the Neolithic Revolution, the invention of agriculture 12,000 years ago. And no earlier than that did we ever settle down

and live in permanent settlements. But the Kalambo structure was something they found a few years ago in modern day Zambia. And what it is, is these pieces of wood. And I'll get to the point about why this wood has survived in a minute, because obviously wood surviving this long is crazy. But there you go. Yeah. So the Colombo structure is these pieces of wood that have been joined together deliberately, cut in notches and

connected together, tapered and secured at right angles. And they think it was either a kind of raised walkway, like a kind of raised platform or a house, a dwelling, a hut, some kind of structure. And why this is so paradigm shifting is because not only does this kind of scream that humans potentially lived in permanent settlement, so sorry I haven't even said this, this is 476,000 years old, so this predates Homo sapiens. So allegedly, allegedly, as in what do you mean allegedly? Oh, because we recently found out that they live 300,000 years. I guess it could have been us, but what they, they

had attributes it to is Homo heidelbergensis, who's our last common ancestor with Neanderthals. So they're kind of the human species that came before Homo sapiens. So I guess you're right, it could have been Homo sapiens and we're just not sure how old we are. But it's kind of attributed to Homo heidelbergensis. And the only reason this structure survived at all is because pretty soon after its construction, it must have fallen into a bog. And that bog kind of got solidified over by the sun and then it was preserved in waterlogged sediment

Which protected it from decay for almost half a million years until it was discovered by us recently And how recent I think about five years ago, maybe it was at 2019 or something I'm not sure but it's crazy. It lasted so long. Yeah, I would say it's a massive monkey wrench because not only does it kind of really dispute this idea that we didn't settle down until, you know, 12,000 years ago with the Neolithic Revolution because I mean, it's a structure.

I mean, and it's just because it's so unlikely, it's so unbelievable that this would have survived. But that kind of suggests that it's not the only one. Right. But that kind of suggests that it's not the only one. There could have been loads of these, like structures everywhere.

But as you said, Manhattan wouldn't exist in 100,000 years. So this is 476,000 years. Yeah, it's ridiculous. And it's just wood, which is less durable than all the other things that we were talking

about. Yeah. And obviously, people may be saying, well, look, clearly things survive. But this is an extreme edge case scenario where it's like so unbelievably unlikely that this wooden structure would kind of sink into a bog and then that bog be, you know, solidified over and then it would stay in that preserve. Like it's a-

And then that they would find it. And then they would find it. Exactly. Because, you know, nothing happened back then. And then you find this and it really suggests that humans were living in much more complex

societies. And I mean, the fact that they had the cognitive capacity to plan, structurally engineer and build a structure completely flies in the face of what we've always thought about ancient humans. Because we've always had this idea that there's been this very popular idea in mainstream historical thought that humans only got smart around 50 to 60,000 years ago. And that's just Homo sapiens. We've always thought that other human species never got

smart, never achieved what we call behavioral modernity. And this has always been the kind of idea that we went through this cognitive revolution around 50 to 60,000 years ago. And the most obvious proponent of how entrenched this is in kind of academic thought is, have you ever read the book Sapiens? Matthew 15 Yes. Matthew 15 Yeah, yeah, by Yuval Noah Harari. It's an extremely popular book. It sold something like 60 million copies worldwide. By far the most popular book about prehistory and the story of Homo

sapiens ever written. And sapiens didn't kind of do anything new. I think Harari himself would admit this. It kind of just collected the consensus of academia and presented it in a nice digestible way to the kind of layman audience. But he took this idea that's always been present in academia regarding human intelligence, which is that while we've been around for quite a long time, we didn't achieve behavioral modernity until 50 to 60,000 years ago.

And that's when we started apparently displaying complex cognitive traits like abstract thinking and planning and burying our dead. Art. Yeah, exactly. And complex language and things like that. And but this just completely flies in the face of that because if we had the capability

to plan, construct and engineer a structure 476,000 years ago, that means mainstream anthropology was off by over 400,000 years regarding the advent of intelligence and the advent of permanent living. And that's quite the error.

400,000 years.

Exactly. So that kind of suggests they could be off by similar margins about other developmental claims because I don't know, it's a big, big

error. Well, it's also when you think about the history of the earth, there are times that we know that there was like there's great bottlenecks that occurred because of some sort of a massive natural catastrophe like the Toba volcano. The Toba volcano, which was 70,000 years ago, Was that what it was? Something like that, yeah. Brought people down to a few thousand survivors on earth.

Yeah, and there's loads of these bottlenecks. Yeah. When you look at our kind of genetic history. And I mean, does that suggest that something happened?

Right. Well, you're thinking about what evidence there is. And then you think about, well, there's no one left except a few thousand people 70,000 years ago. So it's possible that there's been this rise of some sort of a civilization and then massive catastrophe and a rebuilding. Just like if we're talking about the Younger Dryas, which is in this time period we're talking about, you know,

when you're dealing with 476,000 years ago, fairly recent,

right?

Very recent. Right. And think about the 6,000 years it took for civilization to reemerge from that. Now you think of Toba and you knock down the entire population of the planet to, what did they think it was? See if you can find out what the number was.

I think it was very low. I think it was below 3,000 people on earth. Yeah on earth Yeah, just one thousand people one massive supervolcano, which is by the way, just like Yellowstone There's lots it could all happen again. That motherfucker is bubbling to Here it is Potentially almost all of humanity leaving around 3,000 to 10,000 humans left on the

planet.

That's crazy.

Wow.

And the super volcano isn't the only thing. There's so many others.

What time period is this, Jeremy? 74,000 years ago.

So that's quite recent. Yeah.

In terms of our story. Well, in terms of your theory that I thought was one of the most interesting ones that you brought up, that in your videos, you were talking about how anatomical humans, just based on what we've agreed to, based on what we've found 300,000 years, like what are the possibilities

that there have been civilizations that emerged and were destroyed and then there's no evidence of them?

Yeah, because I mean, aside from the preservation problem, which we kind of already talked about when you get up to these massive timescales, you know, very little is going to survive, especially when you think about what early humans were likely building with. Yeah, like, it's probably the things they could find in their environment, right? Would hide plant remains, you know, nothing left. Just look at what we know about the Amazon now.

Yeah, because of LIDAR and because of, you know, what is this name?

Percy?

Percy Fawcett. Because these people that made these journeys down there looking for these complex civilizations that at one point in time now we know did exist there. And just a hundred years later, they called those people liars because they went back

to the same place and there was nothing left. That's always been, you know, thought of as myth or pseudoscience. It's kind of the most popular idea of lost civilizations was civilizations of the Amazon and it was always dismissed.

Well, here's what's really crazy. Have you seen Detroit? Have you seen the evidence of Detroit where trees are going through houses?

And that's like 50 years less. Or if you look at Chernobyl, the kind of exclusion zone where no one lives, it's already like trees everywhere and like nature is already taking root after less than half a century.

Yeah, bizarre.

And then you, 100,000 years, seriously, what's going to be left?

Very, very little. And then if you go 200,000 years, I mean, if anatomically modern humans, if we've discovered them at 300,000 years, what if somebody digs one up that's 2 million years old? Then what do you do? Then you got to go, oh boy. Oh boy.

And then there's also this thought that Neanderthals were stupid. They're kind of abandoning that now too. They're thinking they had language, they had tools, they had society.

They definitely did. There's so much evidence. And this kind of puts into the cognitive revolution argument, which is that we were the only smart species. Like our name that we gave ourselves, Homo sapiens, literally means smart man. It's always been the idea that we're the smartest humans and that's why we won. And to be fair, we did win.

We did win.

Win, whatever you want to call it. We might just be the most evil. Yeah, we might be the most evil or we just might be the luckiest ones.

Well, we're the weakest, so we probably had to be evil. That's true. We had to figure out weapons that would be able to defeat the Neanderthals, who had, by the way, larger brain capacities than they were Serpians. I think they were just as intelligent that they were very smart and well necessity is the mother of invention right and if you're Physically weaker than these other things that are as intelligent as you and far stronger

Like you gotta you got to get devious. You got to figure some stuff out. But like did we even I? mean either that mean may they got wiped out by something like disease, or did they even get wiped out? Because if you even look at the DNA of non-African humans, it's something like 20% in some populations is Neanderthal. So they're kind of still here. Well, they just sort of interbred, which is also weird,

because most species can't breed with other species.

Yeah.

Just, you know.

But we're very, I mean, we're very closely related to Neanderthals.

Yeah. It's weird. The whole history of humans is weird. And for academics to deny this possibility to me seems so short-sighted.

I know.

It would change.

And silly. I think we're on the brink of quite a massive shift in our perspective regarding prehistory.

I think so too and I think it has to happen where, I don't mean to say this to be cruel, but the old people have to die.

It's that quote isn't it, science advances one funeral at a time. I hope it doesn't take that long though to be honest, I hope it's just in the next few

years. Well the good thing is a lot of scientists don't take care of themselves. Which is also weird when you see super intelligent people that are obese and eat terrible food.

Or health experts, all such.

Yes, air quote health experts, not real ones. But it is to me a great disservice and one of the things that I find very promising is that a lot of young academics are embracing a lot of alternative ideas, whether quietly or whether they're doing it publicly.

12.

Yeah. Well, I think the advent of the internet and shows like this or the medium of podcasting has really kind of democratized the access to information and allowed people with theories that potentially wouldn't have been able to get out there in the pre-internet age where they were kind of ... You had to go through a kind of academic institution to get a theory heard or debated.

Now anyone can say anything for better or worse and that can reach millions of people and then if it's an idea that's popular, then it can kind of be in the public eye and then it can be debated properly. And I think that's only a good thing. Obviously, there are negative aspects to that. But I think that will increase, you know, ideas regarding prehistory, for example.

I think it will increase the rate in which these things will get accepted. Because once the evidence is out there, and once you start, you know, talking about the Colombo structure, for example, and how it completely flies in the face of both these paradigms regarding permanent living and human intelligence.

It's out there now. People can look it up and people can see that this is completely kind of opposed to what we've always been taught regarding prehistory.

And isn't it kind of arrogant to assume that they know who built it too? That's weird too, because they're basing it on this assumption that human beings didn't exist back then, at least Homo sapiens didn't exist back then, which is also being challenged over and over and over again.

Yeah, the fact they base it on Hedobogensis is literally just because we found some Hedobogensis remains like 200 kilometers away. And they're like, okay, Hedobogensis. I mean, it could

have been to be fair, but... It could have been. But I mean, right now there's people that are living in Africa and 200 kilometers away from them are apes So if one day they found structures, you know in the future said oh, these are made by chimpanzees. Yeah, that's kind of crazy

Yeah, I mean that's the thing about history is it's all based on massive assumptions. It's not like a hard science It's interpreting evidence and that's fine. Like that's how we do it. But sure that's why I don't know the only way to do it Right. It's the only way to do it so I don't get why people make these definitive conclusions and then don't allow anybody to kind of

Speculate or hypothesize about anything else. It's gatekeeping. Yeah, it's gatekeeping. It's academic gatekeeping It's also this these people that have been teaching this one thing forever being threatened by the fact they were wrong. The last thing an academic wants to hear is like, you wrote this book, this stupid book, this book misled people for decades. You were so wrong. Like they will fight it with every ounce of their being because it's essentially their identity.

Their identity is being the gatekeeper of their understanding of human history.

Yeah, they've built a whole career around it. And they've, you know, as you say, it's their identity They've been the knowledge the keeper of knowledge on a particular subject and then it's gross because it's ours

It's the whole planet. It's all the human beings It's like free to have a few nerds Who you wouldn't want to hang out with in real life and these are the guys that are telling us? We can't explore these things and those are the people that are attacking Graham Hancock with every possible insult Calling it the most dangerous show on television like this, but it's also It's it's so revealing because it's so obvious that if you watch the show you like wait. This is the most dangerous show on TV

Ancient Apocalypse, yeah

He's like just talking about these bizarre structures that exist that seem to defy our modern understanding of how things are built.

Yeah. And when I, I mean, I don't agree with absolutely everything Graham Hancock says, but when I look at, you know, these ideas of, you know, human intelligence potentially stretching back 500,000 years as displayed by the Colombo structure or permanent living and I would argue that it could go back a lot further than that. When you look at, when you kind of take into account that these abilities could have stretched back half a million years, when I then look at someone like Graham's work, it seems so

plausible. I don't see why it's seen as so outrageous that, because 12,000 years ago, which is kind of when he proposes there could have been a sophisticated civilization that was potentially wiped out by a cataclysm. When you look at that from the perspective of, oh yeah, we've been intelligent for half a million years, it seems very plausible to me.

Not only that, it's 450,000 years after the first structure now.

Yeah.

But no one's even... No one's talking about this.

That's what's weird, is that no one's talking about that.

It's just me.

As far as I can tell.

It can't be just you.

It's like those academics as well that found it.

To be fair, the guy that found it, the be pre-Homo sapien, it could be Homo sapien, but he said it's completely paradigm shifting that they had the capacity to plan and build something like this. But again, there's no fuss about it. It's just a paper was written and it was put out there and then that's it.

Well, these things take time. I guess so. Yeah. I mean, more of these conversations and more people have to understand that these things are being discovered and that we are kind of confused about so many things about human history and we're being told that no, there's people at the universities that have all the answers and that it's literally not possible that they're telling the truth. It's not possible.

And that's why I get so excited about the structures under the pyramid because it's a gigantic fuck You told me it would be it would be the most gigantic fuck you of all time if they found out those that those scans Are accurate and there's these pillars that are wrapped in coils that go down like hundreds of meters and then below them There's additional structures and the whole I think it's all connected as well. Yes. Which is like, if Christopher Donne is correct about it being some sort of a power plant and that reveals how the thing worked and functioned, that's way more advanced than

us. Like, what is that?

In some ways, they already are. I mean, we can't explain how they did it even based on the conventional model of history.

I know, and we lie. I've talked to so many people. Like when I had Zawi Hawass here and he was explaining to me-

National project.

It was the national project. They're like, oh, that'll fix it. We should make our national project to breathe underwater and fly through the air. Like we should make that our national project to go to the other planets and live there in case Earth gets blown up.

What are you talking about, man? What the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, they just don't want it. And it does kind of make me worry. I don't really delve into the kind of conspiracy side of things because I mean, I just try to stay kind of based in-

Not me. I go right in.

I mean, I do it in my own time and stuff. I mean, in my own head and stuff. But in terms of like my videos- What one do you dive into in your own head the most? I sometimes combine the UFO one with the ancient civilization one.

I do too.

And I think what happens if a civilization from a million years ago got so advanced that we can't see them and then that's what the UFO thing is. It's just someone from this earth that doesn't really need the space anymore and they're just watching us. Yeah. Sometimes I think about that, but obviously I don't talk about my videos because I don't need to give anyone any more ammunition to send for me

Well, there's also the genetic engineering one. No, you mean like that? Yeah, like why humans are so different than everything else in the first place Like that's weird the doubling of the human brain size over a period of two million years is really weird

What does that refer to is that from? habilis to Erectus?

Is that-

I don't know. Let's Google it.

I've heard people say that and I've always thought, I guess that must be from Homo Habilis to Homo Erectus from just over a million years ago.

Is it just an immense leap that is, like Terrence McKenna used to say, it would be bizarre if it was a liver of an otter They doubled over a period of that amount of time But the fact that is the very organ that allows us to contemplate and to understand Human existence in the first place and that that organ doubled over a period of two million years like

What happened? Yeah. Yeah, he's got the wack theory, because he thinks it's psilocybin mushrooms. I think there could be something to that. I mean, because ancient cultures have always used psychedelic substances, and basically all the way up until Western civil society kind of took hold, it's always been an integral part of human culture and human society. And then us in our modern world have decided to outlaw that.

And I think that's a tragic mistake, to be honest with you.

It is. And I think history will reveal that one day. And I think that is one of the also one of the good things about discussions that are happening on the internet that are kind of unchecked and untethered by academia so you can talk about these things. Bigger brains.

Smithsonian website says it's actually tripled over the time we've tracked it. Slow increase from six to two million, but a larger increase 800 to 200,000 years ago. And then the article goes out of business.

That's when the aliens landed.

Yeah.

So I'd even buy that though because Hedobogenesis have the same cranial capacity as us and they go back 900,000 years.

So-

Another thing I saw before I-

But maybe that's a rexus they're talking about.

Brains don't fossilize. They deteriorate leaving a cavity. Inside the brain case part of how they know some of this info sometimes sediments will the cavity harm me and natural endocast scientists also make artificial endocast to study like the ones above fascinating fascinating yeah we're a weird creature well did you say it's 2017 that they discovered

modern humans 300,000 years ago I think think so. Yeah, and where was that?

It's in Morocco. And so that's Morocco, right? You said that so

Imagine if they found something similar in China. Well, that would fuck everything up But yeah, I think and I would really that would really fuck everything up. I mean it could happen Well wouldn't really even fuck it up. It would just push it back. I guess so Yeah fuck it up, it would just push it back. I guess so, yeah. But we're not even supposed to have left Africa until this time of the cognitive revolution and that's always been one of the points like, oh look, we got smart, we left Africa 60,000 years ago. But that's never made sense to me either because Homo erectus managed to migrate out of Africa

and colonize loads of Asia and parts of Europe over a million years ago. And if they're supposedly inferior to us, then how can they make this massive leap? And Heidelbergensis did it 600,000 years ago. And if they're supposedly inferior to us, how come they did this? So I mean, I don't know. I try not to delve into the out of Africa thing because it's, I don't know, it gets a little bit controversial sometimes.

It does. It gets controversial when you bring in aliens too because aliens become racist. It becomes racist because now you're not accrediting the Africans to building the pyramids.

You know, it's just really frustrating. That's never made sense to me that because it clearly wasn't white people that built

the pyramids. Well, I watched this very bizarre discussion between some guy that was trying to claim that it wasn't Africans that built the pyramid, that it was white people that built the pyramids. So there are people that have this sort of racist idea of the construction of the pyramids, but you can't attach that to everyone is speculating about the construction because it's too... The things are too weird. It's too weird.

And let's assume that it was Africans that built the pyramids. But if we are assuming that, like, how were they so much smarter than everyone alive today? How were they so much smarter? Let's say it's 4,500 years ago. How were they so much smarter?

What was going on? What happened? Did they get visited by aliens? Did they discover something that allowed their understanding of physics to be just so much greater than everybody else who's ever lived? What did they discover? what were they encountering?

What were they consuming? What were they doing? What were they teaching each other? We lost so much in the burning of the library of Alexandria, right?

Yeah, yeah, that's, it's quite sad really, isn't it? To be honest, like there would have been a lot in, I'm not sure 100% what happened with that. I'm not sure if it was one burning or just several burn. Yeah.

But it's clearly a lot was lost. But then, then the question is like, what did they even know? Like, what if it's older than that? Like, what if all that stuff? What if, you know, this is one of the things that Zawi Hawass was very reluctant to, he's like, what is this? I was talking about the king's list that goes back 30,000 years. What if that's accurate?

Yeah, it's the Sumerian one does too.

Yeah. It gets real squirrely when you only want to accept some parts of history.

And that ties into the Green Sahara thing that I was talking about. They have king lists that go back this far. And yeah, we say that some of them are myth and to be fair, they have kings that reigned for like a thousand years, which is a bit weird.

It's a bit weird.

Probably not. I mean, unless you're talking some kind of alien thing, then that probably wasn't human, but that might just be because it would have been a long time ago for them too when they were writing these king lists. Sure. But it doesn't mean that their civilization only started with the first dynasty, what we've decided is the line between myth and fact, because that's a modern interpretation after the fact. They never made such distinction.

Yeah. And this idea that they lived a thousand years. Well, have you ever read the North Korea depictions of Kim Jong-un's first day playing golf?

Yeah, it's propaganda.

Yeah. I mean, he made like nine holes in one. He was the greatest golfer of all time. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, you're writing about Kings. He lived a thousand years. Fire came from his dick. You know, like, what are we talking about? We don't know. We don't, we don't know what they were writing. We don't know who wrote it. We don't know how fantastical it was, how much hyperbole was involved. But

we do know that we accept the King's list when it gets to around 2500 BC, we start accepting it. But you don't accept this possibility that it might actually go far, far, far earlier than that.

And the whole pyramids thing kind of plays into the fact that stone is one of the only thing that survives and pyramids are these massive stone constructions. Ironically, they would be one of the only things from our, not that they really count as our civilization, but from the modern world, the pyramids would be one of the only things that could survive in 100,000 years. So it makes you think, how long have they been there? I think the Egyptians definitely undertook some kind of construction project around the time of 2,500 BC.

Trevor Burrus Oh, for sure. Matthew Feeney Because there's records of them saying they did stuff but that doesn't mean because they have all these records but there's no records of how they built it.

Well they also, the buildings that they made that were after 2500 BC are dog shit. So much

worse. They're terrible. They just immediately forgot how to do it again straight away. They

were trying to copy and they just couldn't do it. They didn't have the math. They didn't have the engineering. The stones are smaller.

It's- And no one's claimed, they didn't claim credit for the pyramids, which is weird. Why would you not claim it?

It's all weird. It's all weird. It's the weirdest, right? So it's the one thing that if you're a logical person and you think you know the timeline of history, you think you understand human civilization, you think you understand like how intelligence evolved and how technology and innovation evolved, and you see that, you're like, oh,

I don't know shit. I don't know shit. Like, how's that statue so big and perfectly symmetrical? How about these, just these vases that they don't understand? Oh, is's not a replica This is a 3d and this is a 3d model of an actual vase from Egypt

Yeah, they're doing some good work on this aren't they people like on the other side Christopher

Don't give this to us. I think he did But you know Ben from uncharted X

He's done a lot of work on these things like those just those vases are very bizarre Very bizarre may appear right at the start of the Egyptian dynasties. Yeah, and they forget to do that as well

We have no idea how they made them. We don't know what tools they used anybody that says that they do you're lying You really don't know you can't know these things are perfectly symmetrical They weren't turned on a lathe because they have handles the the the way they measure them when you look at like the Deviation from round and like how it's it's it's like a thousands of a human hair Yeah, it's crazy and it's made from incredibly hard granite

Yeah, the hardest stone to do that with.

So what are we talking about? Like who are these people?

This is kind of crazy. And then you have the statues that are perfectly symmetrical. The faces are just incredible. And massive. Yeah, huge, unbelievably huge.

So they moved them there and then they carved them perfectly symmetrically. It looks like they're 3D printed. It's so strange. It just screams at a lost technology.

At least.

It screams that these people had some sort of information and some sort of education that is like on a different path of our. We went the way of the internal combustion engine and transistors and electronics, and it seems like they went a totally different way, but maybe even further.

But we're scrambled in our pathway to advancement is the only one that the human mind and all its infinite creativity can conceive of.

And this is another point regarding like, you know, culture that could have flourished back in 100,000 years ago or whatever. We're always looking for ourselves in the past. But there's so many different ways that we could have gone because why did it have to be mass farming, mass population growth, and then, as you say, kind of industrial progress? It could have been so many different forms of human development and human lives and...

Well, it could have been if they had enough animals, they mostly ate animals.

Yeah, or fish or something.

Yeah, mostly ate animals and fish, which is probably healthier for you anyway. You know, really what grain is, is survival food.

Yeah, we all got like shorter and less healthy

Yeah, because we didn't get the right amount of protein Yeah

and our jaws like shrunk because people were eating gruel like if you look at part of the world where people are eating a Lot of like porridge and shit their jaws get really small. Yeah Not good for us. No, it's fucking terrible for we're devolving because of our diets, which is really strange But if you think about this time and especially that part of the world where there was so much Abundant natural resources that animal agriculture seems super simple You just corral a bunch of animals you build a fence and then you eat them. Yeah, and you don't really have to grow rice

So many different ways that culture could have flourished. And we're always looking for it. And we just don't know where to look as well on the record. Like one point people always make in my comments and stuff to try and debunk me is like, oh, we would see pollution. We would see kind of lead signals in the atmosphere or whatever if there was like a big civilization

100,000 years ago. But that's only the case if it was someone on the scale of us now.

Or if they were doing it the way we're doing it. That's the thing. We're talking about a completely different pathway. Clearly, there's some technology that they had that we don't understand. When you talk about the drill holes that they find or the way they had carved out these enormous Massive chunks of stone and we're apparently gonna move them. We don't want to finish obelisk. Yeah. Yeah, it's crazy the unfinished obelisks

That's bananas. It's so many of these things that they they cut out of the ground and absolutely moved our bananas Yeah, so it's like, what kind of technology? Why are we assuming that it's going to be some internal combustion engine that sprays out terrible pollution? What if they had figured something out?

I would say it's entirely possible.

It's entirely possible because we're going to eventually. If you give us another thousand years, you will not be able to recognize any of this nonsense that we use for technology today Especially when AI gets involved It's but like did you see that thing where quantum a quantum computer supposedly went one second back in time? I did I was reading that bullshit. No, it's they discovered it six years ago, though. It's not new What six years ago? Well still that story 2019, but still it went back in time. Yeah, wait one second and

Way in quantum. What does that even mean?

Exactly Exactly, that's mad, but that's us now imagine that technology. That was science fiction 20 years ago. Right? Well, go back to like the movie Alien and look at their stupid computers that they had. That's what they thought people were going to have when they were starfaring people. Now think of this quantum computer experiment where it goes back in time one second and then go forward a thousand years, which is nothing. We're talking about 4,500 years ago, we might be off by a thousand.

So go to 5,500 years ago, 6,000. If you're listening to John Anthony West, he thinks it's 34,000 years. That's what he thinks.

And that sounds so crazy, but then you look at the kind of length of time we've been around and it's still quite recent.

Yeah, it's still quite recent. Yeah, it's still quite recent.

And that lines up with the Sphinx, doesn't it? That's the processional cycle.

How much evidence of a quantum computer from 34,000 years ago would be left? Right.

So if we did get pelted by comets, which we know happened, that's a fact. I saw an estimate, I think it was from NASA, but I'm not 100% sure, but it was from a kind of scientific journal that Earth is hit by what they define as a cataclysmic impact every 100,000 years. So that's an impact that's capable of wiping out a third of today's population every 100,000 years. And 100,000 years sounds like a long time, but again, we've been around for 300,000 years. So theoretically, we've been hit by a cataclysmic impact

three times already during our story. And that both has the potential to completely wipe out anyone that was doing anything sophisticated, but also to wipe the record clean. And that's not the only thing. You've got super volcanoes, as we talked about. You've got pole shifts. You've got solar flares. You've got glaciers just scraping across the landscape and just completely erasing the

record. You've got sea level rise. Sea level rise is a massive one because, I mean, where have we always lived? By the coasts. And if you look at the kind of fluctuation of sea level rise over the last hundred thousand years, 200,000 years, 300,000 years, the sea level is going in and out by hundreds of kilometers at a time and nothing is going to be left.

Right. Wild stuff.

I know, it's crazy.

It is wild stuff. But again, if someone is a historian and they got into this, someone's an archaeologist and they got into this because they have this fascination for it for them to

become professors and then

Yeah is to me so weird

It's like you missed the whole reason why you got into this in the first place

You got into this in the first place is because you're trying to figure out what happened. How did we get to this point? And if there's evidence that shows that we don't have the full picture and you're ignoring that or dismissing that or...

But the thing is, when you go through these kind of systems, and I've sort of got experience of this, obviously I was never a professional academic or anything like that, but you know I did history for four years, I was kind of inside and I got to the point where it was almost, you know, it was do this as a career, become a professional academic or not. It's very hard to kind of even think this way because everyone around you is thinking within these boxes that we've created for ourselves. And so it's very hard to kind of open your mind and you kind of have to do it in private

as well because no one else is talking in those terms around you and you're surrounded by people that think in quite limited terms. And I don't say that to kind of be offensive or you know doubt anyone's intelligence. Well it's the culture. Exactly it's the culture and it means that no one is, it's very hard to think outside the box when you're in that culture. I think that's what creates these rigid systems of thought.

It's also kind of fear-based because it's not just discouraged. They'll attack you.

I mean, they attack each other even when they are within the box.

Viciously.

Just think about the Clovis First issue.

Yeah, I mean, that's the best example.

It's the best example because that guy was destroyed.

His career was destroyed

Yeah, destroy Jack's at Mars and and they were right. Yeah, they were destroyed for

Theorizing that human beings had lived in North America and that arrived in North America far before

That are 22,000 years old. Yeah, And they hated that as well, they hated that.

Of course they hated it. But they hated it just because they were wrong. It's all it is, man. It's human ego, it's so gross. And this brings me back to psychedelics. Because what do psychedelics do that's most important?

Well, the dissolving of the ego, it's one of the most important aspects of it. It makes you realize the folly of your ways, you know, and all of these people that are supposed to be the academics, they're supposed to be the enlightened ones. They're not enlightened. They just, they have information and they hold that information like it's their identity and they're right about a lot of things because they have been studying it and they do deserve credit For that what they've done is amazing and the understanding that these academics these archaeologists and historians Can give us of our world and our history is really cool. It's really awesome

But there's a whole lot more out there and for them to pretend and dismiss people like they should embrace people like Graham Hancock and Then they should correct him when he's saying something that's wrong Yeah, but instead of lying and then calling him a racist and saying all these terrible things about him Well that just shows me that you don't really have an argument and you're trying to protect your identity Your identity is the gatekeeper of this information that is not yours to gatekeep. It's for the whole human race to understand what the hell happened.

Yeah. And I wish that, you know, we've seen a surge in interest in ancient history and prehistory and you know, the story of our species through people like Graham Hancock, who have kind of created a massive interest in this subject, but instead of embracing that, they see it as a threat and I think that's really sad to be honest. And yeah, I think it kind of hurts the discipline in general because if you kind of like embrace that and like brought him into the table and

spoke to him and kind of agreed, you him and agreed to have the discussion, then it would create a much more healthy debate around these things. When you talk about the Clovis narrative, because we think that we know what happened and thus we know what didn't happen, it means that people aren't even looking for stuff that now we know was there. So like they don't, they didn't dig deeper than the Clovis layer until very recently because they knew that humans weren't around until Clovis.

But obviously that was wrong. So they could have missed so much stuff and they probably did. I mean, have you seen that? There's like a, to be fair, I think Graham mentioned it on the show, the Saruti mastodon site, which is like 130,000 years ago in America. I mean, if that's human, which it kind of looks like it is.

That's debatable though, right?

Isn't that debatable?

Yeah. Because the way the bones are broken, it could have been from some sort of an accident or an avalanche or something, right?

Yeah, it is debatable, but it's also, it could be human because it kind of looks like human markings on bones. It looks like scrapings, like they're scraping the marrow out of the bones.

Or some kind of primitive...

But why couldn't it have been human? I mean, it didn't necessarily have to be homo sapien, but why couldn't another human species have got to the Americas?

Well, it seems like they certainly could have if they were here 22,000 years ago. What was that timeline? Why'd they figure it out then? And how'd they do it? Right? That's the question.

How'd they do it? And we know that people were seafaring from what was the earliest seafares?

You could argue that Homo erectus seafared 800,000 years ago, which is just mental.

Could you really?

Well, they reached places that were isolated. And some people say they kind of floated there accidentally. Which is possible, but it seems a bit weird that you'd then like survive and colonize a place.

See, that's where it gets so squirrely. If Homo erectus made a boat, that's bananas.

I mean, Neanderthals were definitely making boats and this points to how intelligent they were. They were making sophisticated boats and sailing across the Mediterranean and colonizing places like Crete well over 100,000 years ago. Well, we know that the North Sentinel people, they arrived by boat from Africa 60,000 years

ago.

Yeah. And so at least then people were seafaring.

Oh, definitely.

And probably way earlier than that. So why would we assume they wouldn't get to the Americas? That seems crazy.

I mean, bigger journey to be fair, but then I guess if you go across the top- Which way you're doing it. Yeah, exactly. You go across the top and kind of hop down along the coast, then not so hard.

Also, there's a problem. It's like if you go back 12,000 years ago, Canada's covered in ice. There's nothing there. It's literally all ice.

So where are be coming from the south. I guess. I mean, there's the kind of theory regarding the Polynesian kind of island chain, you know, hopping across to Easter Island and then making one last hop across to South America.

That's a crazy hop, though.

Going the other way. It is a crazy hop.

It is a crazy hop. People have always done crazy. Just the fact that they did it in the 1400s is bananas.

That's pretty crazy. 1800s is bananas crazy and they did that with tech that was you know, no tech. They just did it with the stars

Yeah, and would but then you get to what it how do you say that ancient Greek symbol that ancient Greek mechanism that they found? The Antikythera mechanism. I never could say that Antikythera, I'll try I'll try to remember But I always forget it But that thing is bananas like that when they first found it It just looked like a hunk of shit. Like what is this? Hmm? And then when they got a better understanding

I think it was like a long time after they discovered it that they go. Oh, wait a minute. These are gears like what?

So basically two thousand year old computer. Yeah, at least eat and also that's not the first one Like no one just someone didn't just develop that and was like, here you go. Right. Just fucking made a computer. Like it was clearly like a, you know, a long history of very, very technical stuff in... Right.

In ancient Greece.

And it could well have been the ancient Greeks, but also it could have been like, well, where this modern automatic watch. You know, modern automatic watch, if you look at the inside of them, it's crazy. There's springs and gears and it's all within, like this Seiko is like within, I think it's a couple seconds a day. Like that's crazy. And it's all these little, and it moves, it has no power source other than the movement of your hand.

Yeah.

And then that.

And there's a 72-hour power reserve. So, for 72 hours, you let it sit there just from the power of your hand from wearing it

for a few...

Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a cool watch. Nuts. Isn't that nuts? But that's normal. That's a normal thing for a modern watch with these little tiny gears. Yeah, and it's 2,000 years old at least What do they think it was for?

I think they thought it kind of like track the lunar cycles and the kind of elliptical movements of

Have you seen the 3d AI? Representation of what it looked like when it was fully done. See you can find that because it's that that's the most eye-opening of it because you're bringing this back to the time of Christ and someone made a computer during the time of Christ. What are we missing? Graham's quote is the best.

I love this quote. We are a species with amnesia.

100%.

100%. Yeah. And this other quote that I really love, things just keep getting older.

And things do keep getting older.

They keep getting older and things do keep getting older They're getting older. Yeah, and this is something that people resist for some strange reason and I don't understand it I think it's just because it's attached to these folks like Graham. Yeah, that's the one look at it. That's No, it's that's what it used to look like Reproduction oh right, but that that is what it used to look like, right? Based off of that. That, yeah.

These pieces. So, show me the modern reproduction of what it looked like. Just imagine, okay, someone 2,000 fuckin' years ago figured that out, and they have these little representations of the stars and the planets of the sun, and then all the planets surrounding it.

Like, first of all, how do they know all that? How are they seeing these planets? Like did they have a telescope? Like what are they, how do they know how many planets are in our solar system? What did you base this on?

And no equivalent technology ever like reemerged until like, you know, like the 16th century with like Swiss clockmakers, right?

so it just makes you wonder like how old is that and what's that from and What were the pretty you know, was there other stuff like this that we never find?

Yeah, I think that's

I think that's the, uh, there's no, I don't see the evidence that they have for 700,000 years ago.

I think that's the Homo erectus thing.

And they're crossing the, I Googled it and crossing the Aegean Sea, it says they might have been doing, which there was some like islands that were protecting it from crazy weather potentially made it easier.

But that is, I don't know what evidence that is a crazy thing to read some evidence suggests that man may have crossed the sea as early as 700,000 years ago. Yeah, aren't you happy you were born today? Yeah, imagine trying to gut it out before like tough it out

I'm the boys and go and cross across some sea in a wooden raft

Yeah, when you want to be eating your friend because there's no food left Yeah, it's it's kind of amazing that we got as far as we did, but it's really amazing when they find things like that. Is the Antikythera mechanism, I said it right?

You did.

Nailed it, I'll try to remember. But just the fact that we found one of those, and it makes you wonder, what did they have in Egypt? You know, what did they have 2,000 years before that?

What did we miss? I'm digging into the stone stuff while you're talking about frequencies. I saw a video recently that doesn't explain all the Egypt stuff, but there were frequencies coming out of these rocks. That I don't think everybody is currently studying.

People have studied it.

That's very basic, but like there's the king's chamber and the reverberations that happen. I was reading from Archimedes, I think, this quote here, when the priests sing the hymns of the gods. They sing the seven vowels and do succession. The sound of these vowels has such euphony, I think that's that word, that men listen to it instead of the flute and the lyre, the lyre, from 200 BC.

We've just like so many ancient sites that are all built with kind of acoustic, like resonance in mind.

Yeah, so that's what I was getting into this. I was trying to find the proof of it Someone made a video I saw recently where the somatic stuff shows up all over the place in some ancient sites definitely obviously in churches and Cathedrals, but this is what happens when you like Yeah, sand on a plate and hum on it or you know, I've certain vibrations. Yeah, and how You stumble across this and it just so happens

to be the same thing we're like we're discovering now.

What is that image of? What is that golden?

This?

Yeah.

What's that?

It's a cathedral. I looked at it a second ago.

Is that in Canada? No, the article is from Spain. It's in Spain.

Whoa.

That is wild. It's the UK.

I was looking into the oldest doors people found. The oldest doors are only like 5,000 BC. It was found in Switzerland somewhere. There's an act, the oldest act of doors in the UK.

It's from 900 AD, I think. What are those images of sacred geometry from and that right there Leonardo da Vinci's original drawing of the flower of life Hi, what da Vinci? What were you what drugs are you taking son? How is he seeing that Yeah, well that that's ancient imagery right that's sacred geometry those Depictions have been around forever He was a crazy dude eventually in a good way. Yeah, my guy bizarrely smart

It's very smart. It's weird when you have these outliers the these outliers that come out of nowhere and like he he He had like a working model of a flying machine. Yeah. Yeah

And he had like three jobs

Yeah, he's a guy and he's an amazing artist. Yeah, it's kind of you know There's these outliers that just how many of them we never heard of how many of them were from 30,000 years ago How many just? We have such a limited Understanding of our history and I always, like if something happened to us right now, what would really be left?

The real problem is everything is either on paper, and there's not a lot of it on paper anymore, it's on hard drives. And those things would get cooked. If there was just a massive solar flare, something huge that took out our power

grid and destroyed all of our cell phone towers and all our satellites, no more electricity.

And even if it didn't get cooked, what would you do with it in 10,000 years? Exactly. If you found that, you wouldn't know what that was.

You wouldn't know what that was. You would have to devise a new version of Windows to read it. You know, it would take so long and it would probably have been corroded and wasted away long before that. Especially if something happened, it was underwater, especially if, you know, the entire world is on fire because we got hit with a comet.

There wouldn't be much left. And this is like a really shitty way to store information.

It's a bit, it does feel like a bit of a risk, doesn't it?

It's a giant risk.

Everything we've ever learned and, you know, discovered and thought about is all just-

Well, you know what happens when your phone dies and you don't have a's number and we do that with our entire civilization's knowledge, right? And so then you would have just stories and myths of what things used to be like There was an all-female flight crew at Delta. You're like what what are you talking about? What does that even mean? You know all that had satellites. What are you talking about? Like what is the thing is like I wonder how many of the satellites would still be in orbit, or whether their orbit would deteriorate and they'd come crashing down to Earth.

I think they would decay relatively quickly, I think. I mean, I'm not sure, but lots of them would, I think. And when we're talking big time scales.

Yeah, let's Google that. How many satellites that are in orbit today, see if, put this into AI AI how many satellites that are in orbit around the earth today will be there in a hundred thousand years Does a perplexity have an answer for that

To that I don't I think is unlikely that anyone else was doing like space travel and stuff unlikely Yeah, so maybe I'm like possible, but I don't there's anything on the moon for example. I think is unlikely that anyone else was doing like space travel and stuff unlikely. Yeah, so Possible, but I don't there's anything on the moon for example. I think we probably see that but yeah, that's the weird one, right?

There's bases in the dark side of the moon. Yeah, they're watching us Are you sure I don't think so, you know Well, then there's the weirdest of the itself, that it's the absolute perfect size and the perfect distance to completely block out the sun.

That is weird, isn't it?

Real, real weird.

It's real weird, because it's not kind of right. It's perfect.

It's precise, yeah.

It's very precise. So you would need the precise size and the precise distance.

That's weird.

And there's also the fact that it stabilizes our atmosphere, it stabilizes our environment.

Yeah, I guess the argument for that is we wouldn't be here if it wasn't. Right. If it wasn't the exact right.

This is the best answer, you might have to read the whole thing, but there's thousands of satellites burning up each year in the atmosphere. Oh shit.

Is what I got to the end of. Oh, so thousands of them crashed down? I mean, they... So how long do they last?

That's the first, that's why I was trying to track that down. The first one only lasted three months.

So Sputnik One, the Soviet Union, in 1957, three months later it fell out of orbit.

Seems like they worked up to about a 25 year rule where they only expect it to last that long. Wow. It's gonna crash down. So in 25 years, there's nothing left? But I was trying to Google how long would, till the last one, if they stop putting them up, how long until the last one crashes down?

It seems like 25 years.

That's why, then I couldn't get a good answer that way.

Did you put it into AI?

I didn't, because I don't want to

Like asking questions, you don't know the answer to the AI

That's like asking questions. I know the answer to well, I just like to see how it thinks I like to see if it's gonna just bullshit you and lie to you or if it's gonna I want to know when it's bullshit me. Yeah, I don't like no one it doesn't Have to trust it fine. Well, it's it's also basing all its information on websites Yeah, and I don't know what year it was trained on I was watching people talk about sports cards are like it's not updated in the last three years So you don't even you can't use this data. It's not good data. Oh, really? Which one was that?

I don't I don't know which one they were talking about. That's

There's so many AI opportunities out there. It's funny watching people on Twitter use Grok and try to get Grok to say things it doesn't want to say. And you realize, oh, there's an information blockade of what Grok is allowed to talk about.

I think you can just make it, you can kind of trick AI to say whatever you want it to say.

Yeah, I've seen people do that, like trick it into saying, like, how would you make a bomb?

Yeah.

And that's almost the bad thing about it, is you can, it kind of becomes your own little echo chamber after a while if you want it to, if you can kind of convince it to.

Well, we've done a really terrible job of taking care of most people. And when then you give these people access to the kind of power that AI provides them, they're going to ask naughty questions. Because they, you know-

It's great fun though.

They're not living in harmony.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because we're a selfish being. We're a selfish creature.

It's a crazy thing though. The kind of advent of large language models and artificial intelligence and it's mad.

Well, it's also we're in the middle of it. It's happening right now, which is real weird. So, like, in our lifetimes, we're potentially witnessing the biggest change to civilization since the pyramids.

Yeah. Even in my lifetime, like, I was born in 97, didn't really have ... I had to dial up the internet, I remember when I was a kid, and then smartphones came along, and then obviously things like AI,

and it's just, it is pretty ridiculous.

I was 27 years old before I ever got online. That was when I first got a computer, and I got on AOL, and you've got mail. I was like, I've got mail? This is crazy. And you could go to chat rooms and read about stuff

and you could download information, so I'd print stuff about UFOs, and I'm like, this is the future. I'm living in the future. And we're very fortunate, I think, that we got to see what life was like

with the primitive use of the internet to what it's become now to a Quantum computer can go back a second in time to you know, what is coming next? We don't know what's really weird is imagine if this has been done before We're assuming that it hasn't but imagine if the Egyptians had figured out something similar It kind of makes sense.

I mean, it sounds preposterous that they did, but why? Why if we can do it? Why if we can do it? Maybe it's just a thing, if you leave humans undisturbed for a long enough amount of time with food, they start figuring stuff out.

If you can keep them from killing each other and maybe that's the beautiful thing about the way Egyptian technology had advanced, they didn't split the atom. Maybe they figured out something else that they couldn't turn into a weapon.

Yeah. I mean, they were definitely doing some pretty mad stuff. And then if you look at those kind of granite boxes they made, the completely smooth surface, they clearly had some form of technology that we don't attribute to them. I think that's undisputed. I mean, it is disputed, but I don't think how you can logically kind of look at what they were doing and not think they had some kind of technology that we don't traditionally

attribute them to. But whether that means they were like some crazy advanced civilization or it was built by some other advanced civilization, that's a bit more hypothetical. But they were clearly doing stuff that we can't appreciate today. So that logically suggests they had something that we don't understand, right?

Right. And when you find Antikythera from 2000 years ago, it makes you just really think, what did they have?

Well, ancient Greece was very inspired by ancient Egypt, so it could have well come from there.

Exactly, yeah. And we're just guessing. We're just lost in guessing.

That's the thing, it's all about interpretation, isn't it? All of history is about interpretation. It's not a hard science like physics, or I mean, physics is kind of crazy too. Although it hurts my head, man. That's too much for me, all that quantum physics stuff.

But have you ever heard of the Silurian hypothesis?

No.

I may have.

What is it? It's kind of linked to this ancient civilization stuff. It's the idea that there could have been an advanced civilization on our planet, you know, 100 million years ago, a non-human one, that was advanced and industrial, and we just wouldn't see any trace

because of how long ago it was, and they could have been here, and we just wouldn't know because it's been so long. It's kind of like where I come from with my kind of human idea. Obviously, it's a further time span,

but it was proposed by two physicists, is why I just thought of it just then. This guy called Adam Frank and...

I've had him on before.

You've had him on? Yeah. Adam Frank, there you go.

I mean, you might have talked to him.

We had him on, Jamie, right? I don't know.

Didn't we?

Let me see.

You can see where the episode's at. It's a problem that happens all the time. We're like, yeah, we've had them on.

I know we have.

Episode 1130.

I knew we have.

There you go.

Yeah. I just wanted to check because I have been wrong before where we talked about a guy. I'm like, who's that guy? And then like, I talked to him for three hours.

I thought you were.

I was like, uh oh.

Yeah, it's happened before. This idea is that something else other than human beings? Which is the idea that if it had we wouldn't know and because the earth's been around for so long and complex Multicellular life appeared, you know relatively early in our like four billion year history of the earth or whatever I'm not sure on the dates but we've been around the earth is brother has been around for so so so long and we know that intelligence can emerge because it emerged with us and happened relatively quickly when you look at the kind of massive time scale that the

Earth's been around and how long multicellular life has been around. So their idea is kind of like, well, what if, you know, a civilization in the kind of era of the dinosaurs had, you know, become very advanced and an industrial society. And they say we would see absolutely no evidence. When I'm talking about human civilization, we would see some potential evidence like rock, carved stone or whatever. But they would say you wouldn't even see the nuclear waste deposits because it's that long ago that nothing would survive. And then I

think about that and I think, well, isn't it almost more likely that something did happen considering we know that intelligence can emerge relatively quickly? Multicellular life has been on the planet for so, so, so, so, so, so long.

A limited understanding of the fossil record.

Exactly. Why couldn't something have happened before? And then you start getting a bit stoner about it, and you start thinking, well, maybe they're still here because they could-

That's what I like to do. I like to go into dimensional. Because I think like, well, if you do have these quantum computers that can go back one second in time, and you move forward a thousand years from now, and they're run by AI, like what can they do? Like what do they cease to do these beings cease to exist in this dimension? Do they develop the ability to be transdimensionaldimensional? Do they no longer exist in our space and time? Is that like the emergence of this new life form and then they observe us?

Is that what's going on? Well, I feel like if you kind of survive, you know, a lot longer than we have and you kind of get to a different like kind of level of intelligence, then why would you need the kind of physical body? Why would you need the physical realm? And why couldn't you kind of diverge different dimensions if such a thing is possible?

Like- We certainly could imagine it taking place somewhere else, on another planet with a similar atmosphere that supports life and given maybe they live in a solar system that doesn't have an asteroid belt. Yeah. Right?

Because there's, I'm sure they must exist. They're not getting pelted all the time. We're just in a shitty neighborhood. We're basically in a neighborhood that gets shot up all the time.

A shooting gallery, yeah.

Yeah, it's a shooting gallery. And imagine them achieving where we are at, but then plus a million years and you can go oh yeah well I guess all bets are off in terms of what's possible. You know a hundred years ago people were freaking out if they saw a car now we're sending video from a tiny little screen on your phone across the world yeah instantaneously

it's all nuts and we don't even blink at that we do it you get pissed off if it doesn't work Yeah, fuck I'll talk to this guy in Australia and instantly like why is my phone not working and you know?

People are addicted to staring at it. Mm-hmm. It's like it's pulling you into its gravity. It's it's very it's all very very weird stuff

Yeah, we are just very quickly to real quick Yeah, how technology develops and it's just getting faster and faster and faster. It makes you think, where will we be in 100 years, in 500 years, if nothing happens?

Yeah. Where will we be? I think we'll be somewhere really weird. But I'm hoping that as we do advance and wherever we're going to be, it'll help us understand where we came from. the history of the human race, then things can get very interesting.

And maybe it could give us places to look. Like we need physical human beings or drones on the ground excavating certain areas. This is like prime place to look

Yeah, I come I some I kind of flip between like quite a pessimistic outlook and quite an optimistic outlook on these things Like sometimes I think like it's just gone and we're never gonna know and we can speculate for as much as we like But it's gone and then sometimes I think no like you never know There's so many places that are just completely unexcavated, completely unexplored that we haven't looked at. Like, you know, I believe the Sahara on the ocean floor by these... Could I have some coffee, please?

Yes, sir. That'd be all right. Thank you. Of course. And then all these places that, you know, we haven't explored and as you say, technology like AI.

Thank you.

Cheers.

Cheers, sir. Thank you. You know, I think sometimes I think, yeah, maybe we are going to make like these massive discoveries that are going to completely shift our understanding of history. And as you say, the kind of Giza, the findings beneath Giza, that could be a moment. And I'm always looking for that. But then sometimes I flip again and think, you know, maybe we'll never find anything. And I just don't know.

Maybe I'm just speculating for no reason.

I should just stop. Have you seen Ben on Uncharted X? He has a very recent video of these, I don't even know how you describe it. There's these underground structures in Egypt that he says are bigger than the Giza plateau, that are underground.

I haven't seen that. I love his channel, but I haven't seen that.

There's a historical record of these things where people had talked about them way back. Even explorers had visited them and found them to be more spectacular than what is actually on the ground, that the underground thing was even crazier.

And that begs the question, why underground? Why do we find all this underground construction all over the world?

Hey!

Jamie!

That's his theme music, I even recognized that. Shout out to Uncharted X.

Yes, he's coming on soon to talk about this very thing. He's awesome. He's really awesome and he spends so much time Give us the coming up. Just play it. Just so many different techniques. The Geoscan and Merlin Burrows satellite technologies,

I mean, they're vastly different techniques. They seem to be aligned. They're telling you the same things. So they found something, like there's something down there. What is down there seems to be also quite a mystery. The central object is hard to classify.

It appears metallic, not stone or wood. A freestanding 40-meter long metallic tic-tac-shaped object. Approximately, what, 50, 60 meters below the ground in a huge big open corridor or an atrium? Come on.

Like, this is a remarkable claim. It's a crazy video. And he goes deep into the history of people talking about these sites and even ancient explorers who wrote about visiting Egypt would talk about how it was even more spectacular underground. Here it is. This is, how do you say his name? Petrie, yeah. He's written a lot because he was like one of the first people. It's Flanders Petrie. Yeah

So is that are those the names of the sites he's talking about Hawara? Sorry, and our son Arsene yeah, how are is definitely a arsenal arsenal? So it says on that space could be erected the great hall of Karnak and all successive temples adjoining it and the great court and the pylons of it. Also the temple of Mut and that of, how do you say that? Kansu? I guess Kansu and Amenhotep the third at Karnak. Also the two great temples of Luxor and still there would be room for the whole

of Ramesium. What does that mean? temples of Luxor and still there would be room for the whole of

Ramesseum. What does that mean? In short, all of the temples of the east of Thebes, and I'm sorry if I'm butchering these names, folk, and one of the largest of the West Bank might be placed together in the one area in the ruins of Hawara. Here we certainly have a site worthy of the renown which the Labyrinth acquired."

So this is an ancient explorer who's talking about, he actually got into this area. The problem now is it's all submerged. So it's been flooded. And it's very difficult to do any kind of archaeological work on it now.

Yeah, because he was one of the first people in.

Yeah, they're like crawling into these like holes and swimming in now. It's real weird. It's like you could die in there. So someone's got to figure out how to get the fucking water out of there.

And what is that? So if this guy's accurate with what he's talking about, again, explain that. Explain how you've got something that's even greater than what you're seeing above the surface, underneath 50 meters down in the stone.

And why underground?

Why?

So much harder.

Exactly, what were they doing? Were they hiding? Is this like what happened when cataclysms took place? They said, Wilson, we need to develop a way to survive

these things and let's get underground. And there's so many all over the world as well. There's people are always, well, ancient people, always building underground construction and we can't explain how they did it, who did it, or why they did it today and again no one Well, no one in the mainstream really kind of looks into that. Yeah that site in Turkey Wasn't it supposed to house like 2000 people? Yeah, and the number like 2,000 people at least I think I can't remember off the top of my head

But it's huge huge. I think it might be 20,000 people. It's massive. That sounds better And yeah, it sounds more exciting I think it might be 20,000 people. It's massive. That sounds better. Yeah.

It sounds more exciting.

But it is massive, and they don't know how they did, and they carved it out of stone.

They don't know who built it.

There's no evidence of the stone being left anywhere. It's not like there's a big pile of it outside of it. It's real weird. Yeah, 20,000 people, livestock and food stores, extending to a depth of approximately 85 meters underground.

And no one knows who built that.

That's just so crazy.

All underground.

Nuts.

And their kind of argument is that they built it to kind of protect themselves from an invading army but that's never made sense to me because if you were attacking those people, you just block the entrances

Yeah, and then start fires. Yeah. Yeah, that seems silly It seems like more likely what they were doing was escaping whatever the fuck was on the surface

And so who built that and why and how old is it? Cuz again, it's you know, it's stone that could survive for so long, right?

And also did you build it after a cataclysm? How do you do it? Do you know it's coming and that's how you build it? No. You didn't know it's coming, unless it happens regularly and they realize the only way to survive it is to get underground.

Well, I guess it could be the remnants of an earlier culture that was wiped out and they had a memory of maybe passed down three myths.

Look at how nuts that is. I was thinking too, like no one know how leaf cutter yints do it.

This couldn't have been the first one they made.

Yeah, exactly.

You can't get lucky.

Right, right. And figure out how to make all those chambers to breathe and stuff.

That's so bananas dude that that's 85 meters into the ground.

So crazy. So crazy. Another great one is Longyu Caves in China, which is just, there's just zero explanation of what that is or who built it. There's no record of its construction. Have you seen Longyu Caves?

Yeah. Yeah.

Pull that up.

That's nuts too.

Absolutely crazy. How old is that supposed to be?

No one knows.

They have no idea who built it. It's just like, well, what is this? You know? built it, there's no record of who built it, they didn't know what it was for, there's no deposits of stone, there's no tools found nearby.

Do they have a theory of the timeline?

I don't think so. I mean, to be fair, it's in China, so it's kind of like it's not, it's a...

Found in 1992.

Whoa, a farmer.

Four farmers.

So there's 24 of them, looking like that. Wow.

24. that 24 go to a video of it so we could see because the the caves when when you people when people walk around it with a camera it's bananas and there's 24 distinct ones that look like that and it's just like why still visit China without going to jail what happens oh this is Mike Collins he's great wandering wolf yes he's the one who does all that stuff about that wall in What happens? I don't know. Oh, this is Mike Collins. He's great. Wandering Wolf. Yes.

He's the one who does all that stuff about that wall in Montana, too.

Yeah, the sage wall.

Very weird. That Montana thing is very weird. I go back and forth on that one, being man-made or...

Yeah, that's the case for so many of these things. It's like, yeah What did we find? I think the carvings are modern. Oh, they are. I think so I think from not the the parallel lines. They don't know what they are and they have no idea why the parallel lines are there. But I think the kind of carvings depicting like mystical Chinese stuff is a kind of modern addition.

Oh, like brand new?

Yeah. Like, since they discovered it.

Oh, really? Like even those ones on the wall right there? That's so gross.

I think so. I may be wrong. Might be worth checking.

I'm not 100% sure. Didn't do that. Oh, that would be gross. You imagine? Yeah.

But that's always, that site has just always baffled me. Because again, if you look at the Wikipedia page for that site, it's just like three lines. But it's like, what the fuck is this?

Yeah, so the carvings. Yeah.

Are those really old?

Or are those modern? What made you think that they're modern?

Because I did a little video on, I mentioned this in a video, during my research of that, I saw that.

Oh, so in the research you found out that they're modern. Yeah. Okay. So the lines, it seems to be, the parallel lines seems to be like how they dug all the stuff out, like one layer at a time. Would you think that?

Yeah, but like how and what, using what? There's 24 of them and also they're all so precisely identical. It's like what tool are you using to make sure this was so identical?

Right. Like what tool are you carving stone with to make a giant cave? One particular cave stands out for its detailed carvings of dragons, animals, people and figures closely resembling the eight immortals from Taoist mythology. These depictions suggest a deep connection to Taoism Whether these carvings were a part of the original structure or added later after the caves were rediscovered in 1992 remains a topic of debate

After close examining of the carvings and a noticing of unique method used to chip away at the rock for these images It seems likely that they were added later Perhaps turning the cave into a sacred place reflecting the religious beliefs at the time. Oh, so some gross people carved into it in 1992. That's so crazy that you did that guys, because that's probably what people have done throughout

time. I bet that's, you know, the probably the people that like put their dead body in the pyramid.

And that's the thing with all the other things in Egypt is people have carved hieroglyphics onto there, but that doesn't mean that that's when the original thing was built.

Can you go back to the video, please, Jamie, of that site so we could see what it looks like when you're walking around in it? Because the fact that they don't really know who made it. And the fact that these farmers found it in 1994, when you see the scope of it, that's where it really sets in.

It's just unbelievably big.

Yeah, because I think like images are cool, but the way this guy's walking around it, you really get it.

And then you have to time that by 24.

Imagine those farmers, like, should we tell anybody? If we don't, they're gonna kill us. They might kill us anyway

Much was added than afterwards if they did How much like stairs? Oh, yeah, all the stairs are added for sure a bit right the stairs that that guy's on look too new Obviously, but again, what was this fool? Like why do they build? Yeah, they look new all that shit looks new

Yeah, why did they like what is this?

The carvings Lastly, maybe they're trying to make the carvings to make it seem like it was older and people would come wander Just come look and it'd be a tourist attraction

Like maybe without art they didn't think it would get enough people to visit

I think it's also to kind of connect it to kind of you know, bro more like contemporary cultural China rather than because I mean who knows how old this could be

That's crazy cuz it's Stein. That's so crazy the fact that they just found it Just stumbled on it. That's what's the weirdest thing about some of the discoveries cuz that's the same with gobekli tepe It was a sheep herder, right?

Someone found gobekli tepe in the 60s and they didn't think it was anything, so they left it. Really? Yeah, it's like that guy fucking missed the boat a little bit.

No way!

Yeah, some American archaeologists found it in the 60s.

What did they find?

I can't remember, but they found like a little bit of it and they were like, oh,. He must have been like, I could be a Stoic. I could have been the guy. Instead of a fucking sheep herder.

Yeah.

Because there was a guy who just found a stone, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, here it is, 1960s.

A survey conducted by archaeologists from Istanbul University in the University of Chicago found some flint and limestone Artifacts, but they didn't perceive the site as anything more than a medieval cemetery. Whoops. Whoopsies Whoopsies. Yeah, that was the Nuts what a slip-up So, um the sheepherder that found it I think he just found a corner of something.

And he kicked it with his boot and was like, what is this? And then started looking around, scraping it off, and then I think once he realized it was really big, he goes, maybe I should call somebody. Call somebody who knows how to dig.

The whole 5% excavation thing is so puzzling at Gobekli Tepe. To be clear, that's kind of how

That's like normal practice. I think yeah, archaeology, but you would think that Quebec Lee tap is like a bit more of a

It's a special case

Normal, that's that should but it's also They make a lot of money off of tourism people visiting it the way it is and that would disrupt everything If you had a bunch of eggheads digging into the ground all around you I see that but you know Then they started doing weird stuff like planting olive trees above the ruins and everyone was telling them like hey guys If you do that, these trees are gonna grow roots. The roots are gonna destroy what's underneath them Yeah, like no everything's gonna be fine. And then they realize, oh, it's actually destroying what's underneath it.

That's like a microcosm of the problem with a small section of very vocal kind of mainstream archaeologists. I think the whole tree controversy regarding Gobekli Tepe is because it was Jimmy, right? Jimmy Bright Inside.

Yeah, exactly.

He can't go there anymore, you know. I'm surprised I might have snuck in reason video. Yeah. Yeah, but I think he's banned from the country From the whole of Turkey. I think he's banned from the site at the very least It doesn't make sense because we're mad at him for telling the truth Whatever you think of Jimmy like he was wrong. Let's find out he's banned. I don't want to get Turkey mad at me Because I think Turkey's probably the that's probably the birthplace of civilization.

Of what we think of as civilization. I mean, there's so many different things that they've found in Turkey now that's starting to lean people to think that like, well, maybe that spot, maybe we've, you know, there was probably a bunch of places like that in the Middle East where Civilization had sort of emerged from whatever it happened before or the Sahara or the Sahara Yeah, what do you think about the Richard? Let's get that in a second here Oh, yeah, Turkey should have banned me when they had a chance if my Jimmy's so crazy. If my prior work on Gobekli Tepe upset them, what I will share in the coming days, weeks

is going to take things to another level. But because we were cunning around various security protocols and aided with exceptional timing, we got the footage. Our ancient history belongs to humanity. I agree. Anyone that opposes that has no place controlling our lost history.

Good for you, Jimmy.

Yeah, I mean, whatever you think about him, he was right about the trees. And the fact that they had these people kind of coming out, defending the trees and saying the trees were good for archaeological sites, just-

Yeah, I don't know what Jimmy has a degree in, if anything, but he clearly knows a lot about ancient history and he's really interested in it and this again this gatekeeping Like if you watch his videos and he constantly gets smeared with all sorts of different Horrible claims that he's this and he's that he's like if you watch his videos, you know, that's not true He's he's just a guy who is very fascinated and deeply informed on a lot of the timelines of all these different things And how interesting they are and

He likes to make videos of them and that's a good thing. Why shouldn't he be allowed to speculate? He's just a guy speculating and he's he's really fair and balanced with how he talks about and he's good at it, man He puts together arguments really well and you just mentioned the reshot structure thing I've watched his videos on that and like it's interesting, the way he kind of connects what Plato was saying about Atlantis and brings it all to the reshut.

It's interesting stuff.

It's very interesting, because it's also, he talks about how Plato would talk about the mountains to the north and the river to the south. This all lines up.

Concentric rings. Concentric rings in the same size as was described as Atlantic. And the Tamanrassa River system used to run through it. So it was surrounded by water.

So how come everybody's like nah.

Well it's because you can't prove it.

Well it's a little bit of that but it's also because this YouTube guy is the one talking

about it.

And that's if they admit that he was right that would drive them fucking crazy.

They had to with the trees.

Yeah.

They had to with the trees. Yeah to move them. Yeah

It's also weird if you look at it from a satellite perspective The satellite imagery where you get to see where it all looks like it's been washed over by water Yeah, yeah, like the whole thing looks exactly like sand looks when the tide comes in and then pulls back Yeah, it's all rippled and it looks like it was Pummeled by water. Yeah, and match the sinking into the sea in a single day and night exactly and also like how many? stories From ancient history to pick floods

There's so many of them like we can can't, are we going to ignore all of them as myth?

Well, the idea that myth doesn't hold any kind of use in understanding the past is just ridiculous because the myth is powerful because it's the thing we've collectively remembered as a species, isn't it? So why would we dismiss that as a kind of, you know, historical record? And then you've got examples of like indigenous cultures that remember kind of scientific information through myth. I always go to this example of these kind of islanders

during the tsunami in 2004. And they, the way it went, it was the Andaman Islands and the kind of Western scientists or whatever went to the island after the Boxing Day tsunami and they were like, oh, everyone's gonna be dead. Like they're all gonna have been wiped out by the tsunami.

And they were fine because they had this myth in their culture that when the sea recedes, you get to high ground because then the waves are gonna come that will eat men. And that myth, you know, that has encoded scientific information regarding tsunamis

and that saved their cultures' lives and they had like no casualties compared to, you know, Western or modern people who were devastated.

Isn't that crazy? Everybody else was like, wow, look at all the sand. Yeah, and they were like, woo. I thought the beach was over here.

Yeah, and then they all got fucking killed.

And then these people with their myths, scientific information, survived. There's a guy who was hiking in Russia when the most recent tsunami hit, and he was on a cliff, and you see the ocean come in and reach the top of the cliff where his dog is. See if you can find it.

It's crazy.

Because he films the thing coming in. Like this guy is way above the ocean when it starts and then the water is reaching where he is with his dog.

It's just further testament to the power of nature and we just constantly underestimate nature and-

And that was just a little wiggle in the ocean. That's just a little wiggle. Just a little earthquake. Little eight pointer.

And then you think about some of the shit that's going on during our time on earth.

Comet impacts and like watch this. So look how high this guy is, right? Little eight-pointer and you think about like some of the shit that's going on during all time on earth comet impacts And like watch this so look how high this guy is right way up way up right and so as he's up here You know he's seeing the waves come in now He must have known that this was going to happen because everybody knew this was gonna happen So watch how it's coming in now. And now, it keeps coming.

It keeps coming all the way to the top where he is. It's nuts.

Look at his dog.

Oh, shit, shit.

His dog's like, yo. I would be freaking out. I would be running.

Yeah, I'd be out if that be running. I wouldn't trust it What if it goes over the top where you're at? You're just guessing Bro, look how high this water gets It's terrifying. He's out there now. Look at that. The dog's about to get jacked I mean if you get trapped in that like the bitch you are not swimming to shore. That's your life. It's over I don't care if you're Laird Hamilton. Well, he might swim through that

But isn't that nuts? Yeah, you're fucked That water got all the way to the top of that hill So and that's that is like doesn't even register in the news. Yeah, that's just like thing That's all the time. That's a thing that happens. It's like a thing like no big deal. No one will remember that in five years No one will remember that in ten years but if a fucking comet slams into the ocean right there or

Slams into a glacier a comet the size of you know a few city blocks That's a wrap. Yeah, that's a wrap you you have massive flooding like Instantaneous millions of gallons of water tearing through the landscape. No more ice cap. It's all gone Yeah, and just any kind of culture that was possibly around. It's just wipes Completely wiped clean from the earth. Yeah record nothing. you're in Dunsville, there's nothing left.

And that's real. This isn't speculation. We look at the Tunguska impact, and that was the same sort of comet storm that we passed through. Yeah. At the same time of year, and it flattened this enormous chunk of Siberia that still

doesn't have trees on it.

Yeah. And that's quite a small thing.

Yeah, and it didn't even hit. Yeah, it airburst, yeah.

And if that happened over a city, that's like millions dead.

Millions. So that could be happening on this planet on a regular basis.

It is. It's kind of fact that we get hit by stuff.

Yeah, we're always finding a crater, we're like, oh, this one's three million years old. Look at this fucking crater. Three million years ago, everyone's fucked.

If that estimate is correct, that we're hit by a cataclysmic impact once every 100,000 years, then, I mean, what does that mean?

Well, that's where it gets really weird if you're talking about like an advanced civilization like You know millions of years ago Like imagine if there was some sort of advanced life-form millions of years ago and then something like that

It's have you seen that wheel that's like 300 million years old or it's like a preserve It looks just like a wheel. Have you seen? Jamie, could you please search? 300 million year old wheel?

It will probably come up.

Are you on TikTok a lot?

Where are you getting this one?

I've just seen it about and it looks like a wheel. It doesn't mean it is a wheel, but it looks remarkably cool.

Well, there's some of the stuff from...

That?

Yeah, that's the thing. It just kind of looks like a wheel and they found it in a mine and then they flooded the mine which is a bit weird, but there's a there's a couple better images of it I don't know if they'll be on this page, but Yeah, there you go. It's like spokes and a wheel and I mean could be natural but I Mean what the fuck is that you know that looks really weird Now what are these these fossilized tracks yeah, these are also super old. They're called cart ruts. Again, found in Turkey.

Including Sufka, where they cover an area approximately 45 by 10 miles. And how do you say that one? There's a lot of words today, but I don't know how to say it. Cappadocia, home to several clusters of tracks. The discovery of these ruts around the world has sparked debate regarding their purpose, age and origins in Malta, especially due to the proximity

of the tracks to megalithic structures and the fact that some are now submerged beneath the sea.

Yeah, I've seen some of them in Malta. I went to Malta and they go off cliffs.

Many researchers suggest these fossilized lines indicate significant antiquity. So if this is like mud that they were pulling these things through or dirt that they were pulling these things through and then it eventually fossilized into tracks, like what else would be the explanation for something that looks exactly like tracks? Is there a natural explanation for those kind of formations?

I don't see anyone providing.

No one has an idea?

I didn't really know about the ones on Malta because I went there and kind of researched it, but those ones they don't dispute. They're definitely man-made. Well, hold on.

They're definitely man-made? Because listen to what this says. I first saw tracks in stone, fossilized car or terrain vehicle traces, usually called cart ruts, on Neogen plantation surfaces, Peneplene in Phygian Plain in May of 2014. They were situated in the field of development of middle and late, how do say that meal scene? You seen toughs? Yeah and tough tough fights and according to age analysis of nearby volcanic rocks had middle Miocene age of 12 to

14 million years. Yes, this is Turkey not Malta, but again, I mean you've got these cart ruts that look like You know some sort of track and it's millions of years old and then that find that wheel nearby

That's fucking crazy And you're like, what is this? I will look at what this says Koltapin holds Okay, the region that dr Koltapin has studied is relatively obscure with guidebooks offering little to no information about it. While mainstream researchers argue that the tracks are merely petrified remnants of old cart ruts left by wheeled vehicles pulled by donkeys or camels, Koltepin holds a different

perspective. Rejecting these conventional explanations, he stated firmly, I will never accept it. I will always remember many other inhabitants of our planet wiped from our history. His research suggested a deeper, perhaps forgotten history of Earth and its past civilizations." Like, what?

Because if it's, that's the Silurian hypothesis. If it was millions of years ago, how would we, we wouldn't know.

You imagine millions of years ago people had the wheel.

Or something.

Might not be people. Something, whatever they were, was pulling things on wheels. And they had cart ruts in the ground. So maybe they didn't have... This is fucking crazy. Koltapin theorizes that the civilization responsible for driving these heavy vehicles likely built

the numerous identical roads, ruts, and underground complexes scattered across the Mediterranean region more than 12 million years ago. He acknowledges that petrification can occur relatively quickly, but points to the heavy mineral deposits on the tracks and signs of erosion as evidence of much of a much older timeline He also connects these tracks to surrounding underground cities Irrigation systems and wells which he believes are millions of years old. Yes, that's like down

So what if they're in line you as millions of years old and why I XR related to it

This is so crazy on his website Colt had been wrote, I hope I'm not fucking his name up. We are dealing with extremely tough lithified petrified sediments covered with a thick layer of weathering that takes millions of years to develop, full of multiple cracks with newly developed minerals in them, which could only emerge in periods of high tectonic activity.

Whoa. Pretty crazy, huh?

That's the craziest thing I've ever seen in my life. That's crazy, because I knew those cart ruts existed, but I didn't look into them. I didn't know what the timeline was. I didn't know that there's anybody that's even speculating. That thing looks like a fucking wheel. It's right in the same was. I didn't know that there's anybody that's even speculating. That thing looks like a fucking wheel.

And it's right in the same place. So you've got this fossilized wheel and these fossilized cart ruts from hundreds of millions of years ago.

The wheel was printed in a sandstone of the roof. Guys, drifters, tried to cut away the find with the pickhammers and try to take it out to the surface but sandstone was so strong and firm And having been afraid to damage a print they have left it in place at present the mine is closed and Access to the object is impossible the equipment dismantled and the given layers are already flooded

Yeah, they get in there why would you like that I think it was something to do with like, just, I don't think it's like some conspiracy like hide the wheel, hide the wheel. But I mean, maybe it would, but I think it's more just like the practice of what they would, they will finish their mining thing and they found this wheel.

They weren't going to excavate the wheel because they were like, like, if scientists look at it, if they get a 3D scan of it and they go, okay, we have to completely rethink everything. If something had a wheel 12 million years ago.

300 million.

300.

What?

It's nuts.

Like, what are we talking about?

I mean, it would be like the saloon hypothesis. It would be another, it wouldn't be human unless you mean we'd have to radically rewrite everything if that was human.

Right, but what does that mean then? Like what are we talking about?

Like what? Just different intelligence.

Some other species.

So maybe there was something like us that lived like medieval humans.

Yeah, because.

That was millions of years ago.

It's the same problems. If they're living on Earth, they're dealing with the same kind of physics. They have to move materials around. Why would you not come up with the same kind of thing, like a wheel? It's a simple invention.

That's what's interesting too. We're always finding new dinosaurs. That's a common thing. If these were a type of human being or something similar to human beings that buried their dead, what are we going to find? These were a type of human being or something similar to human beings that buried their dead.

Yeah. Like what are we going to find after 12 million years? Nothing except for maybe a fossilized wheel. Yeah. Well what is the conventional explanation of these wheel tracks?

But all I know about the ones in Malta and they definitely say they're man-made.

I don't know about these ones in Turkey, I haven't really looked into it. Those are crazy. I know. And the fact that they go to underground structures, help me.

I know. Well, they're near there. I don't think they directly lead to Derinkuyu or anything, but they're nearby. And then, so then you start to think, what if Derinkuyu is like, you know, to be fair that I think that's probably man-made, but you know it's stone so well I'm sure it's man-made, but like what kind of man and it could have been man adapted it could have already been something there and we kind of

Changed it that would be completely fucked if we found out there was another type of Human that existed that did all that 12 million years ago

Well, I didn't it wouldn't even have to be a human. It could be any kind of life. It's just intelligence.

Right. But there's no evidence that anything other than primates have been that capable of manipulating their environment other than primates. Right.

I guess so.

We also know that there's certain... We're finding new ones all the time. Right. This one that they found, I keep fucking it up, Homo juliens. Is that it?

I believe so. One that they found, I keep fucking it up, Homo Juliens, is that it?

I believe so.

Antikytheria?

Close. Antikythera. Antikythera. I'm going to get that right. I fucked this one up too, the Homo Juliens. But this one was larger than us.

It had a larger brain capacity. This was just published in December of 2024. And they know that they just, I mean this was just published in December of 2024. So they know that they're constantly finding new branches of the human tree.

Yeah, and then you got Denisovans or Denisovans, however you pronounce that. And they just reclassified that Dragon Man scholars Denisovan and that was a huge.

Yes, so Juluensis. Is that how you would say that? classified that Dragon Man scholars, Denisovan, and that was a huge... Yes. So Juluensis. Is that how you would say that? I've never heard of this. Yeah. Because it's really new.

Yeah. A new big headed archaic humans. Bigger than us. With big ass heads. And big brains.

Well then you kind of get into the thing of like giants and stuff and like could giants have been real and-

Seems like that's a giant.

Exactly. And there is giant primates that have been like confirmed, like Gigantopithecus or whatever it's called. And then you have hobbit humans like Homo florencis or I can't pronounce that. But you have hobbit humans, you have giant primates. Why can't you have giant humans?

I think they did. I think that's why Giants are always in the Bible And I think this thing how? How old is this fossil that they found of? Julu ensis So this one Existed alongside. I believe alongside at least

Some versions of man. Does it say how old it is? 300,000 or million?

So that would that would just overlap with us then.

300,000 years old? Right. So, but here's the thing. They don't have a lot of this stuff. They don't have a lot of evidence of this creature. So, right. So but here's the thing. They don't have a lot of this stuff They don't have a lot of evidence of this creature. So right so they have I believe it's one site Is that correct? Is there one site where they found this?

Yeah, so How many have they not found? That's the real real problem with us and this whole fossil record thing is that we're dealing with a very limited amount of information. It's very difficult to become information. It's very difficult to become evidence.

Especially when you get up to these, again, it's the preservation program. We can't, when you get back this far, it's so hard to find stuff.

You should see what this thing looks like when they do like a 3D image of a depiction. First of all, they make it look super primitive. They cover it with hair and give it jack muscles. It looks like this freak, but whatever it is, it's way bigger than us and it's a human and it lived alongside us. So David and Goliath, it's right there.

And there's also the, I think it's called Meganthropus, which is, uh, yeah, that's what

it looked like. Supposedly. Meanwhile, he probably had a calculator. They make everything Everyone's stupid and walking around in yeah, everyone's stupid. Everyone has a stick in their hand Hammer oh I've heard that too, but I heard that that was that was solved. I'm not seeing I mean it doesn't make sense I'll just go with that. It's it was found in 1936. I think but the limestone around it is supposedly 100 million years old Oh, yeah, I never heard of this. Yeah, someone had an explanation found in Texas London, Texas, not England just so no Yeah, someone had an explanation for that. I don't remember what it was

Mysteries a lot of people discussing it. Why don't you look up London Hamburg debunked? That's I mean wouldn't someone want to debunk it I know they would but I want to know if they're right, you know I'm sure someone would want to there's lots of I'm just going there's lots of people saying it's real and fake and there's just not

A lot of explanation on how it was found in the old limestone

Okay, radiocarbon dating of the wooden handle and the geological analysis have largely debunked the idea of extreme antiquity. More details. The artifact, the London Hammer, is a metal hammerhead with a wooden handle found partially encased in a concretion hard compact mass of mineral matter. The claim some have interpreted the hammer's presence in the rock as evidence of advanced ancient civilizations or a young earth pointing to the seemingly anomalous placement of a modern-looking tool in ancient rock.

Evidence against antiquity radiocarbon dating of the wooden handle has placed its origin within the historical period, not millions of years. Geological processes, the concretion itself is not necessarily ancient. This is what I had read. Minerals and solution can harden around objects dropped or left in cracks or on the surface of soluble rock according to Gaia out of place

Artifacts while the concept of out-of-place Artifacts can be intriguing the London hammer doesn't meet the criteria of being considered an out-of-place artifact as is geological context and dating suggest a more recent origin you know one of the things that I always go to with Egypt is those really bizarre looking things that almost look like a part of a machine, like that wheel thing.

Schist disc, I think.

Yeah. It's something, I don't remember what it's called, some kind of a disc. But it looks like a part of something, almost a fan you're looking at that like okay What is that thing doing is that a turbine is that in water? There's like something spin like what is that the fact that that's real? That that one drives me nuts. It literally looks exactly like something. That's a replicate right part of a machine I mean, they found the pieces of it. I've seen someone put it, they've cranked it up in water

and it can like displace water in a very unique way. Yes.

I don't know if that's, you know, the use of it,

but that's a... See if you can get an image of the actual one, not a recreation, because I think there's been some, some of them, they've recreated it, because I think it's a very valuable thing. So when people are looking at it, I think a lot of times they're looking at recreations. But whatever it was, no one can figure it out, right?

And it's carved out of stone. So how? What are you doing? What does that thing do, you know? That thing looks like a part of a machine. It looks like a part. a machine? It looks like a part like if you know like you have some ancient machine

And you've got it does a bunch of things like it moves a beer mixer

Right, but I mean if you go with primary rescue, then I didn't mix up that stuff up somehow

Hmm, that's true actually right But it's probably beer, but it's probably just one of many different tools that were missing from back then If that is just their stuff for making what they call beer my primary rescue is the guy who wrote the immortality key I don't know if you ever read any of his stuff, but a lot of it is about ancient Greece and the Ilyus Indian mysteries psychedelics again. Yes Yeah, but a lot of it is you know what we think of as beer and wine, all their stuff was laced.

It was all laced with ergot and a bunch of other stuff and different psychedelics that we haven't really identified yet.

Yeah. And they combine that with that kind of spirituality and everything.

And that's why they built the society society they built. Yeah, which is the craziest thing about You know our weirdo

Yeah And we're just all kind of rushing around and it's really hectic life of just like, you know I've got to do this and just not sitting back and kind of appreciating

What was that? From an unknown author on Reddit, that's when they put it on a drill.

Oh, so they made one of it and put it on a drill?

Yeah.

That's great if you have a drill. So we're assuming that the Egyptians had a drill. I'm assuming they had a drill.

I mean they have all those drill holes, don't they? And they find all these- And people are like, oh that's normal.

I can explain that away.

And there's that spiral thing, I can't remember what it's called, but, what's it called? Chris Dunn did like a, he put like a thread around it to show it was a spiral.

Oh yes, yes, yes, the groove of it. And he also estimated the revolutions per minute it would take to do something like that. So you're talking about something that is going into extremely hard rock and looks like it has some extremely hard tip that can cut that rock. Like what is it made out of?

Yeah, that's it. And these are like serious people. These are engineers that are saying this kind of thing. And the problem is that, you know, archaeologists and Egyptologists are all a certain type of person that don't have the expertise in recognizing machined artifacts.

Also, they're dorks and they don't connect with people because they're so arrogant and the way they talk about these things, it freaks people out and it makes them not want to listen. This is, I think, the thing that frustrates them the most about alternative historians like Graham Hancock. he's really interesting. He's compelling.

He's a great communicator as well.

He's a great communicator and a wonderful guy and people love him and they go, oh, fuck

that guy.

He's all right.

He's racist.

He's a this, he's a that.

And he's more popular than them as well.

Yes. That's what drives them nuts. nuts, but what it should be exciting to them because it's it's stimulating people's Desire to know where we come from and that's supposed to be your business

That's supposed to be what you're into and all he's doing is asking questions and like putting forward if I don't think Graham would ever claim to like be you know certain or he's just saying this could be possible

You know, he's got some ideas that I think are a big stretch and then he's got some ideas that I think are dead on the head, but he will tell you that himself.

Yeah, exactly.

He will tell you that himself. He's just trying to figure this out.

And that's the position he always has come from.

Yes.

But they kind of see it and they say, how dare you claim that you have proof and I don't think he's ever said he's got proof He's such a nice and sensitive person that like this stuff really fucking hurts his feelings I can imagine mate, it must be hard

It's not necessary. Everybody should be working together They really should and the academics Everyone knows that you had a limited amount of information before and there's more information now Like your students are not gonna hate you if say, listen, I wrote a whole book on this. This is so crazy, but I was so wrong.

They would respect you more.

They were probably respect you more.

Yeah. The thing about it is like that book is still out there and academics like to point at each other and make fools of each other. They really love to do that. They really do live too. I see them do it to each other on Twitter all the time They'll dismiss someone's credentials and say his work is shit and they're like god you're such bitches

So so that Bruce Bruce other let alone someone who's to each other

Yeah, like high school girls like talking shit about each other in chat messages, you know or high school boys They do the same thing, but it's or fucking grown men Do it obviously and these guys are just like that there's but it's also I think some of these guys are socially stunted Because they've spent so much time with their head in academia and their head in books that they don't realize that the rest of the world Sees that behavior in a very transparent way. If you're acting like a bitch online and all you do is say mean things about people,

that's not, you're not hiding what you are. Every reasonable person sees that and instantaneously knows what's going on. This is irrational behavior. You're calling people racist because they're questioning the timeline of human civilization based on evidence, based on really bizarre things that

no one can explain, based on water erosion on rocks. Now you're racist? Like, what are

you talking about?

It's just a way of like, you know, shutting down the ideas.

It's exactly what it is. It's exactly what it is. But it's it's done by people that are socially stunted and they don't understand that most normal rational people who see them behave this way are never going to listen to them again by doing this bitchy thing. You have discounted your own participation in any true like intellectual discourse because everybody knows you're a bad faith actor now you're a bad person you're you're you're saying things because you're trying to shut down a conversation

instead of saying huh tell me what you did how did you get to this so what is he saying water erosion whoa show me show me the water erosion. Well, fucking hell. That does look like water erosion. Okay.

Maybe we should like re-evaluate this.

Maybe we should bring you in to teach. You know, like what are we doing? We're gatekeeping. We're gatekeeping information because it's protecting fragile egos of socially stunted

people.

Yeah. And they've always, you know, they...

Not to say they haven't done great things.

Exactly. They have done great things. They're exactly

I don't know if they do deserve the credit for that, but we should give them amnesty for fucking up, but no one

Yeah, I mean we wouldn't be able to talk about these things without you know

mainstream for I know what you imagine what Harry and the math department When you've been shitting on a string theory and now it finds. Oh, look who's wrong about the timeline. Yeah. Oh, it's Mike the fucking genius. They're like shit on each other and throwing coffee at each other. They're a bunch of animals. They're just like any other group of men, you know?

It's just a human thing, isn't it? We're all just humans.

Sure.

That's just how we work.

Chess players cheat.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Even genius ones. And often like these people, this is like, you know, the thing that they've worked on and the kind of biggest success they've had in their lives. Yes. They don't want that taken away.

They don't want it taken away and they don't want to deal with those other academics who are going to stick it in their face.

Yeah.

40 years, Bob! 40 years you've been teaching lies. How does that feel? How about all those college kids that left with a real fucked up view of human history because of you Bob Come on, Bob. Yeah, I mean poor Bob poor Bob is gonna just like write a note and blow his brains out

Yeah, but I mean, I don't know I just I hope that things are gonna shift over time and over the next few decades We're gonna see a big one funeral at a time I guess so that is the Max Planck quote, isn't it? But I hope it doesn't have to take that long. No. I wish people would shift their positions, man, because-

Well, again, I think new people coming in, it's like a lot of things. New people come in, they have new ideas. The old dinosaurs-

Yeah. But I think it's, I don't know, our adherence to these ideas has kind of distorted our understanding of history and has kind of prevented us from looking for things because you know we assume that these things...

Shit sorry, almost unplugged the microphone.

That wheel is still freaking me out.

Yeah, it's crazy huh?

It's crazy.

But we just don't look for these things.

Have you seen any of Jesse Michaels stuff?

He's the kind of UAP kind of guy isn't he? Yeah. I haven't really I don't I I do kind of delve into that but I don't I mean I don't like talk about or anything but. His latest one is. Is this to

do with the mummy? Yes the tridactyl mummies in Peru. Yeah that's the one. Where they've done scans of them and they have a fully intact bone structure looks like an actual creature fully intact three feet three toes different shaped head than us, whatever it is, and also 1700 years old, what is that?

So what's the debunking of that?

Well, there's some of them that people have made that seem to be a complete fabrication. It seems to be some of them, they've pieced together bones created like a fake artifact and tried to sell it off But then there's these other ones that were found that don't look like that at all They look like they're they're huddled up. One of them has a fetus inside of it. Yeah Yes. Yeah, they and whatever these things are show them the video when you see the scans of it American alchemy Jesse Michaels awesome show. Yeah, he's cool man. I see the scans of it. American Alchemy, Jesse Michaels,

awesome show.

Yeah, he's cool, man. I watched his show on here. He's awesome.

Yeah. A-M-I-C-H-E-L-S.

I didn't, isn't there also, I might have made this up, but isn't there also like depictions of this in kind of ancient- Yes.

Yeah, is that change in our work three-fingered three-toed people with big heads? Well, that's weird then When you see this thing this thing looks exactly like these. This is it. This is an actual scan of this mummy Look at the size of the head look at the shape of the head. Look at all the bones Look all the ribs everything that's fucking bananas. Now, Jamie, show him what it looks like

before they scan it. So they found them encased in, I think it's dichotomous earth. Is that what it was?

How old do they think these things are?

Some of them are 700 years old and some of them are as old as 1700 years old,

I believe. So not that old. But look at that thing. Some of them are 700 years old and some of them are as old as 1700 years

But look at that thing. So this thing this thing

That is ridiculous. That seems to be an actual mummy of a real creature

Yeah, and here's the thing like that Jesse there. No. Yeah, Jesse's right there

Jesse is doing real journalism on this This is what it sounds crazy to everybody including me as it comes out of my mouth But then when you look at that scan not crazy anymore, and that's one of a smaller one But the bigger one with the big head that one right there that one's Crazy like what the fuck is that if that was a person you would run for the hills With a head that shape with three fingers and three toes and the fact That they have artwork depicting these things that goes back

Yeah, cuz if it's a fake then how are they depicting it right?

What is this like did they have look at look at the scans of the foot? Go back to that This is crazy It's almost if like it defies the possibility of it being fraudulent. It defies it.

It's like, make that. You show me how you can make that, where you can scan it and you see the tissue and the ligaments and the tendons and the cartilage and the joints, and they're not human-shaped

Yeah, that's pretty crazy

I haven't really looked into this but this is kind of nuts. If these were real creatures that existed at one point in time Alongside us and they're just now finding them now Then you get to you get into ultimate weirdness cuz like okay What's the Nazca lines for cuz that's the same part of the world.

Yeah. And then there's other weird like artwork of kind of like things that look alien. And in South America.

Well, there's one of the Nazca lines looks like a fucking space suit. Looks like a guy in a space suit. And also like, why would you make artwork that you can only see from the sky? Yeah, that's always puzzled me about that. Weird. So weird. The same part of the world where you're finding these things?

And they're like perfectly done as well. Yeah. And they're perfect like, you know, lines and shapes and-

Weird.

Geometric drawings. And they keep finding new ones.

Yeah, they do, yeah.

Yeah, it's very strange.

I mean, South America is just, you know, I think South America and Egypt slash Turkey are the two kind of areas that are the most kind of, you know, mysterious and like there's so much going on there that I think we haven't quite acknowledged how much mystery there is still left. And yeah, fascinating, especially when you throw this in. I mean, I haven't really, I haven't looked into this at all, but I'm going to have to start watching Jesse's show.

Like what is that?

Yeah, that's my- And what if they find out that's not a human at all? Well, I mean, it doesn't look like a human.

No.

Right.

I mean, it could be.

I guess it's kind of humanoid, but- It could be some bizarre mutation, right? Like those ostrich feet people in Africa. Have you seen that?

Yeah, yeah.

I guess so. And this is a bunch of people with big heads and three fingers and three toes, but it doesn't seem like it Mm-hmm. It seems like something different also What are you doing with three fingers? You're operating electronics only like you ain't picking shit up. You can't do anything You don't have opposable thumbs the idea that you have something that looks like us. It doesn't have opposable thumbs like yeah That's like a big evolutionary kind of it. What is this thing doing? Yeah, what are you doing? Unless all you do is like put your hand on a machine and you control everything With telepathy and you just control it by touching it

Yeah, you don't need you know, maybe it gets to a point where we stop using our thumbs and they just fucking drift away We only need a couple of digits. So what like what is like Jesse's theories on what? Oh, their fingers have an extra digit, too What does that mean? So, you know how like, you know, your your finger brands in a certain way They have what is an extra phalange? What would you call it an extra little you know, you have like one two three bones They have a fourth

Fourth bone so you could type quicker with the three fingers. I don't fucking know. But it's like, that's not us. That's something weird. The skull shape is weird, but it looks like a real thing.

Yeah, if that's real, that kind of changes everything.

Changes everything. And you don't hear it in the New York Times. You're not seeing it in the New York Post, it's not in the Wall Street Journal, but they might have actually found a life form in mummified form that's not us. That looks a lot like these fucking aliens that people have been talking about since the beginning of time.

And why is no one talking about it except for Jesse?

I don't know, man. Look at that. Look at the x-rays of him. Look and see how he has that extra little thing at the end? That's like an incredible fake if that's a fake. That's not our fingers, man. That's a little extra joint. And it's not, the fingers aren't even,

you would have to be like the freakiest long fingered motherfucker that's ever lived to have fingers that long. Those are weird.

And yes, by and large.

That's not us, that's something different. That's bizarre. Again, anybody who tells you that we know it all, they're full of shit. If that's real, you don't know anything. If that's real, if that becomes mainstream, if this is from Jesse, and I hope it does,

and they do genetic testing on this thing and then someone figures out what it is and it's got different chromosomes than us and different DNA than us, like, now what?

Yeah, exactly.

Now what?

What are the chances we have got everything? You know, because these people seem to think that, you know, we've got it all worked out now.

It's zero.

The chances are zero. It's never been the case. And we've always thought we've had it always a major paradigm shift around the corner exactly So what's around the corner now exactly like this or the ancient civilization thing? Yeah. Well, it's so fun though

It's really exciting. It's a really exciting time to find things out because if this had emerged 50 years ago 75 years ago. There's no Jesse Michaels. There's no YouTube There's no Podcast like this to talk about Jesse Michaels and send a bunch of people over to go watch it more people know the better Let's like look at this. This might be real

This is crazy

And that's why it probably is coming out in this kind of day and age because the internet's not been around for very long

But why is an MSNBC covering this? Why isn't CNN covering this? They should all be covering this. They should all be going, look at these scans that this YouTuber, Jesse Michaels, did. If this is true, this seems like something that's not a human being.

I know, it's just too...

Aliens are real.

This is from 2017. Someone had found just a hand.

Whoa.

It's obviously the same hand. Bizar bizarre three-fingered hand in 2017 Mummified hand found in a tunnel in Peru. It said these fingers these fingers had six bones

Regular human bone has three whoa

Dude

Mummified hand is made up of bone and skin suggesting that it's not fake, unless it was somehow made using real bones, flesh and skin. But how would you fake it?

How would you do that a long time ago, then mummify it? It's all so strange. And that part of the world, they've had stories about these kind of creatures forever. That's why they have all this artwork about them. Not only that, that is an exact replica. If you ever see the movie Moment of Contact, the James Fox movie, it's about an incident

in Brazil in 1994, 96? The Varginha, Brazil incident where there was a crashed UFO. These police officers went to go and see this crash, there was some sort of electrical storm, and then they found this creature that seemed to have been injured from the craft.

The guy picks it up, takes it in his car, they bring it to a hospital. The hospital refuses to treat it. They bring it to another hospital. That hospital, they don't know what happened with the records or what happened, but they do

know that the guy who carried it physically died of a horrible bacterial infection that they could not cure. They said it smelled like sulfur and it had three fingers and three toes. It looked like that thing. It had a long head and this, whatever this creature was that is you know mummified It looks exactly like what these people were talking about from this UFO crash in Varginha, Brazil It's a it's the entire folklore of the town

They have a UFO when you enter into the town of Varginha. They have like this giant statue of a UFO. There's still people alive to this day that live in that town that will tell you the story. And you can go across town, you can go here, they all have the same story. There's multiple UFOs in the sky. One of them crashed, they found two creatures, one of them was alive, they think one of them was dead.

Whatever this crash site was, they bring in the movie moment of contact, they think one of them was dead, this whatever this crash site was, they bring in the movie moment, excuse me, movie moment of contact, they bring this police officer to the site and he starts weeping. Like if that guy's, if he's a liar, he's the greatest actor of all time. The guy starts freaking out when he starts telling the story of what he found in the 1990s, like brings him back to that moment the women who saw the the being they're like in their 40s now

There were little girls when they saw it and they all have the same story and it matches three-fingered three-toed looked like that Looked exactly like that

man If I wasn't doing the ancient history thing, I'd love to talk about this stuff as well might be the same thing Yeah, I mean you never know you never know I'd love to like make you make some you know connection But thing is I don't I just don't want to give anyone more ammunition to come after me and shit like this

You know coming after you buddy don't worry about it today Yeah, they're going to after all the nonsense that we've talked probably it's fun to talk nonsense And this is definitely fun nonsense, but that body's not nonsense. The Varginha thing I don't think is nonsense either.

It's a really weird one.

It's weird that they match. That's kind of stories from however long ago match to the mummified bodies. That's weird.

Not just that, but biblical stories about creatures that are demons that smell like sulfur.

Yeah.

Right? If you're terrified of something and you think you've decided that is a demon because it's actually an advanced life-form from somewhere else and it smells like sulfur Like whatever they have that got on this guy's skin that gave him this horrible bacterial and fits all documented the guy died He was a young healthy soldier, and he's dead within like a couple of weeks Yeah, that's that's not they're giving him antibiotics. This is the 90s. It's not like that You know they're treating him with modern modern medicine and he's fucked and he dies

Yeah, and this is the guy that was carrying the alien. Are you fucking kidding me? May I need to look into this and it smells like sulfur and it looks exactly like a thing. That's a real thing Yeah, they have a real mummy of these things? Yeah. See if you could get an image, an artist's depiction, so they had these kids describe what they saw and they drew this three fingered, three toed little, it was like almost like a purple looking thing.

Do you think that's linked in any way to this kind of mysterious stone construction we find in South America that no one can really explain and here we go.

What is the image, the thing that was curled up in the ground? There's like an image, yeah, that one, that one with the red eyes. No, yeah, that one. That's what it looked like. Somebody actually made a sculpture of that, what exactly it looked like and gave it to us.

We have it at the mothership. But the thing is, if it was an alien, why would it look so human, if that makes sense? Unless it came from this planet, I suppose.

Right, but does it look human? Or maybe that's just like a constant thing when you evolve from primates. And maybe, there's a thing about the alien gray, too, that's always been like this archetype of what we eventually will become.

What kind of like the big like skinny limbs.

Yeah so this is how those guys described it. This is how they described what it looked like. Man that looks an awful lot like that creature. The big eyes, the whole deal, the weird spindly body. That drawing right there where it's hunched over, the one to the right of your cursor, yeah, that's the one that's my favorite.

Because it's like, what is it, 1996. Like, I don't know. I don't know what the hell that is. But what if it's real? And what if those things in Peru are exactly that thing? And what if, you know, this thing has visited human beings multiple

times in history?

So would you say it's from another planet?

Who knows? It might be from here.

That's what I think, because if it's got the kind of similar kind of like primate form.

It might. Look, if these things are, they're finding these mummified remains in Peru, clearly it was here. Why would we assume it's not from here? Yeah, like maybe we just have a really inaccurate timeline of life on this planet and maybe some things went undersea Which sounds nuts, but then there's all these fucking videos of things coming out of the water

That's where I would hide if I it was trying to hide. Yeah, you know

I mean if you've mastered gravity the point where you create like a bubble around everything you are, you travel through it without any resistance whatsoever. And they've clocked things going underwater that are going like 500 knots underwater. You have no idea how it does that.

Yeah. Well, it's all kind of, um, it's like this intimate, I mean, you probably know more about this than me, but my only exposure to the kind of UAP thing was traditionally through I'm big fan of Blink-182 and there's Tom DeLonge. I've had Tom DeLonge on. Yeah, you've had him on. You've had Travis on as well. You need to get Mark on. He's the third. He's complete the set. I love Travis. on before and now I'm like damn I think he might be on to something. Well, he's so cool. He's always been a like an inspiration for me Like I make music and he's been you know a big

You know inspiration for me, but he always got me into He kind of got me into the UAP thing from a while ago. Yeah, he's all in

but I do have to say that if I wanted if I was the government, and I wanted to spread a bunch of crazy stories about UFOs, I'd tell them to people like Tom. And I'd tell them to people like me. I mean, I think people do that on this podcast. I think some of the information that gets shared on this podcast is probably bullshit.

To kind of like, you know, muddy the waters.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And to prime people for disclosure. Yeah. I think the, if I was in charge and if I had done the Hal Puthoff thing, you know, the Hal Puthoff was assigned to do. So they, they gave him a numerical value for all these different things that would be positively influenced by disclosure and negatively influenced.

And you assign a value one through 10 to like what's gonna happen to religion, what's gonna happen to politics, banking, all that stuff. And this was during the Bush administration. So Bush essentially said to Hal Puthoff, the Bush administration said,

we have been working on a crash retrieval program. We have vehicles that are not from this world, we are not alone. If we release this information to the general public and disclose it, what will be the negative impact? What will be the positive impact? And is it overall positive or is it overall negative?

And everyone, there was a bunch of different independent people that they assigned this task to everyone Came up with much more on the negative than on the positive. So they decided to not disclose it This is how put off story. I can't I can't tell you if it's true or not Yeah, but why do you think it was naked be negative just because it's like the impact Yeah, yeah the shock the the complete lack of any

Real faith in authority figures. Like why would you listen to the president of the United States when there's fucking UFOs reading your mind and traveling instantaneously here from wherever they're from? Like all of our systems of power and control,

they all go away. Because we don't, you're not in control anymore. Clearly, the aliens are in control. People would worship the aliens.

But do you think they're kind of like drip feeding us and then at some point it would come out? But then isn't that gonna happen anyway?

I don't think it's totally organized because I think most things in the government are not totally organized. I think there's a lot of chaos going on at all levels of the government. I really believe that. And to think that in this top secret UFO crash retrieval world, there's not a lot of chaos. Just humans. There's chaos in everything.

There's chaos in the FBI. They're having problems. The CIA has its own problems. Every organization has great people and a bunch of clowns and a bunch of nutty people that don't want to lose their positions of power and these little struggles inter-office bullshit in every organization with human beings so for sure that's the same thing with UFO disclosure yeah and then I think there's also the problem with if there

really is a crash retrieval program and it's been going on for a long time and it's been going on without congressional oversight that means you've been lying and you've been misappropriating money and

guys jail

So what's the best way to like you gotta slowly trickle out the information and you got to mix it up with a whole lot of bullshit Whole lot of nonsense and could and then fly some drones over people and see how they respond

I remember that thing. There's something recently about that, wasn't there?

The New Jersey thing. Yeah, there's giant drones over New Jersey and then they try to find them with fighter jets. The lights would shut off and they'd take off.

What was that?

How did they? Who fucking knows? They just brush over that? Yeah, they say, even tell us exactly what was going on, but it was almost like a national emergency. It was a national story. It was, I remember Trump saying that he was not going to go play golf in New Jersey because

they were flying in New Jersey.

Was this pre-election? Was this before he became president?

I think...

Was it Biden?

I think it was during. Was it during? Yes.

I think it was...

December, January-ish. Was it during? Yes, I think it was

I think it was December

I don't think he was the president yet. No, he became president January, right? Right, right, but it was a post election

It was post election, right? I can't remember is uh, mike ben saying that this has happened a couple years in a row and they Were waiting for it to happen this year it. And then he also predicted it would just disappear a few weeks later, and it did.

Yeah, like, what was that? Maybe it's just a grand show that they put on for us to distract us from some other stuff. Maybe there's some banking fucking decisions that were going on at that time that we would have probably paid attention to.

Yeah, like, look at the drones.

Yeah, no, that's a real thing. Of course. I would do that if I had some drones or maybe if I was trying to pull off

some shenanigans, couldn't it just be you know, like Advanced weapons or technology that you know, we have or you know, your government has that could Most certainly because it doesn't have to be alien just for it to be like more advanced than like the kind of public

Knows about most certainly? Yeah, most certainly. I would imagine that a lot of what we're dealing with is advanced American military craft. And probably done through some top secret research that was real shady. Probably a lot of people spent a whole lot of money doing this stuff. People that have gone to S4 and talked about it, it's all anecdotal, so you never really know if they're telling the truth. But there's been people that have no reason to lie that say that they have technology

that is 40, 50 years past anything that you can imagine right now. And they already have it. And they've been spending shit piles of money making the wildest things your mind can ever conceive of. And they already have it. And it probably looks super alien when they take it out.

I mean, why would they tell us what the most advanced thing they have is? They wouldn't, that's not gonna be public information, is it?

Exactly, exactly. So even current history is confusing. So the idea of you knowing exactly what happened 5,000 years ago, shut up bitch. You don't know. You definitely don't know if you find a 12 million year old wheel.

Like 300 million year old. It's all too nuts. Yeah, exactly. We don't know what's going on now. So how can we know what's going on?

So the wheel was 300 million years, but the cart tracks are what?

12 million years? I don't know. That's what this guy says anyway.

Listen, it's all fun. It's all fun, and it's very interesting, and I'm really glad you're out there because I have binge-watched your show. You do a great job. It's really informative and interesting and speculative and fascinating because I just love the subject and I think you just do a great job. So I hope you get a lot of views and you keep doing it and I'm happy that you're doing it and I'm really happy that you came here.

Thank you Joe. I mean it's been a great honor to be here, to be out in Austin. I've loved

it. It's incredible. What an experience and yeah, it's been really fun talking to you and I'm super appreciative of the opportunity Yeah, so thanks so much my pleasure. So tell everybody how to find you

Social media stuff just put my name in I'm Michael button and I'm on YouTube I guess and they'll probably find me if I'm doing My job correctly, that's me on the screen Michael button one Michael button one. Yeah, there's someone else out there He's got my name. Yeah, so don't go to Michael button He's got my name. Yeah, so don't go to Michael button Michael button one that seems so silly. Yeah, fuck the other Michael button come to me. Maybe he's a nice guy. Yeah