JUST IN: Sparks Fly When RFK Jr. Is Pressed On Vaccines, Pandemic Prevention During CNN Interview

You have been placing nearly all the blame on the covid pandemic and the way that the U .S.responded to it squarely with Dr. Fauci.But of course, he worked for President Trump.Does President Trump also deserve some of the blame?

Well, you know, President Trump, as you recall, wanted to end the lockdowns.I think the thing that did the most damage to our country was the lockdowns, lockdowns that shut down 3 .5 million businesses in our country with no due process no just compensation.All of our churches closed our schools and our children are still paying the price for that.And yet we had the worst outcome of any country in the world.

How so.

We have the highest death rate from covid of any nation on earth.

Let me just let me just say because I've heard you say that before on the death rate from covid.That's not accurate because you public health experts say that there is a combination of factors that went into that higher rates of chronic illnesses which I know you would agree with gaps to our health care system and misinformation.

You just said what I said was inaccurate.What I said was accurate.We have the highest death rate from COVID of any.

There are there are there are other countries that are higher.

But you can go ahead.About why we had that.But it's you, nobody can tell you.I mean, we have, as you say, we have the highest chronic disease burden in the world.But Anthony Fauci was mismanaging the COVID pandemic and was doing it under the Biden administration.President Trump wanted to end the lockdowns.

And in fact, in Anthony Fauci's diaries, he talks about how President Trump is calling him every day, trying to get him to reopen the country.

Yeah, well, the lockdowns were done by governors.I mean, certainly Anthony Faucithe president had opinions, but the lockdowns were done by governors, and largely because...They were doing it.They were doing it citing Anthony Fauci.Largely because they were hearing from hospitals saying that their ICUs were overrun and they needed some help while that was happening.

Well, that's not true.

That's just not true.It is true.What you're saying is not true.No, they were doing it because Anthony Fauci was telling them from the top You need to lock down.There were ICUs that were empty all over the country, including in New York at the height.

I'm asking you, I'm going to go back to what I asked you at the beginning, which is President Trump.And he was the guy in charge.And you tweeted back in 2024 that he let bureaucrats like Anthony Fauci shut down the entire country.Again, the president was in charge.

The president was trying to reopen the country when he left.The country was kept closed for another year, almost a year and a half after that.

Let's talk about how to prevent the next pandemic, because there's a lot of litigating and relitigating that I don't think is really helpful to do with regard to COVID.And the question is about so -called gain of function.which for people who aren't entirely clear about it it is it is a highly risky research process that includes manipulating a virus to study how it behaves as it evolves.Now what scientists say is that although it's controversial it's necessary to prepare for the next pandemic to get ahead of it to figure out what these viruses can do.What you want to end this gain of function research.Some scientists say Isn't it better just to put better guardrails around it?

People have been trying to put guardrails around it.generations and it hasn't worked.And clearly COVID -19 pandemic and many other global pandemics that we have have come from gain of function research.The RSV epidemic that we have that is the biggest killer of kids in this country today came from these kind of experiments.The Lyme disease almost certainly came from this kind of research.So I'm And the scientists who you say are experts are making the argument that this is necessary for pandemic response.

Can I point to one instance in history where research that came out of this kind of experimentation has actually provided us with something beneficial.

So how do you prepare then?How do you prepare for the next pandemic?I mean, that's literally part of your job now because experts think it's going to happen within the next 10 years again.

Yeah, I mean, I think we did virtually everything wrong the last time.

So what about now?

The principal thing that we need to do is we need to listen to what's happening to doctors on the ground.There are 15 million frontline physicians around the world.They're mainly now connected through the Internet.we can tell on the front lines what's working and what's not.If we had listened to those doctors during the COVID pandemic, we would have saved potentially millions of lives.There were therapeutics out there that were working.

There were doctors that were having no deaths from COVID and treating, in some cases, thousands of patients.And we weren't listening to them.Instead, we were doing the opposite.We were shutting them down.And then, Dana, the other thing that I would say is that we need to protect our constitutional rights.That that is the primary obligation of our country.

What does that mean?Well, during COVID, we completely dismantled the Constitution.rights.We began censoring people in violation.

But you're saying what not to do.I'm asking what to do.But I want to talk about - Well, that's something to do.

That is the number one priority.We protect the Constitution.

The Constitution was written - Forgive me, but you're just, you're talking about rights and I'm asking about a potential public health crisis.that is coming, but I do want to, let's...

And one of the mistakes we made in the last time was suppressing those rights so people weren't being heard.Doctors who were saying you're doing it wrong were being marginalized and vilified.

Yeah, because, again, I really want to move on, but you were saying, yes, I do...

You were part of the problem.

No, I wasn't part of the problem.

Yeah, there was absolute press malpractice.Mr. Secretary, your job is a fierce skepticism toward authority.

And you weren't doing that.You were beating up on people who were dissenting.No.Okay.Are you going to, you want to sit here and attack me?Or do you want to have conversations about public health?

I'm not attacking you.I'm asking questions about how to prevent the next pandemic.That's what I'm trying to do.But I also don't want to use this as an excuse.interview to allow you to say things that aren't entirely true.You're talking about therapeutics.

Fine.It is also factually true that the covid vaccine worked.The covid vaccine prevented deaths.There is data upon data upon data.Let's talk about the measles please because this is something that is happening as as we speak at the U .

S.and protected children.

I think that what I have talked to scientists and doctors about...

You've talked to scientists.Can you look, can you show me one study?

Yes, I can.

That shows that...I can....children weren't protected by the COVID virus.

I I can tell you that there are.

The vaccine did more good than harm to children.Can you show me one study that shows that?

I can tell you that when it comes to the vaccine, there have been studies that show that because of vaccine disinformation, disinformation, there could have been 100 to 200 thousand lives in the US saved.But because people didn't get the vaccine, that's why.I'm not saying that it entirely...Let me finish.Let me finish.You are saying nonsense.

You are saying something that you cannot show me.A single study makes sense.

I am not saying nonsense.You are talking what...Excuse me....somebody told you.Excuse me.Let me..

.Cite me the study.What study?No, what studies are you talking about?You're talking about studies that actually don't exist.I want to talk about...

Cite me the study that you're talking about.I am not here to defend...You say you've seen studies.Cite me the study.This is not productive.I am not here to defend all of the.

You're talking nonsense.

You're making assertions you can't support.And then when I call you on there you're telling me I'm arguing.

OK.Do you want to talk about you want to talk about assertions that you can't support.I'll get there in a second.Let me just say for the record that I am not saying that the entire way that the COVID reaction was accurate.It was a scary time and people made mistakes.Absolutely.

You were scaring people.

Why are you saying that?

Because that was the job of CNN.Okay, okay, stop.

We were trying to be...We were listening to the leaders in this country, including the president, who had a daily press conference, explaining what was going on and trying to listen.I want to talk to measles.The measles...The measles cases in the U .S.

just reached a 35 -year high.The second, uh, record -breaking year in a row, 93 % of these cases are among the unvaccinated.The outbreak is happening on your watch.And even before becoming HHS secretary for years you have been one of the leading voices questioning the efficacy of vaccines.Do you accept some responsibility for this measles outbreak.

Absolutely not.First of all this is an international outbreak.So we're doing better at handling it than any country in the world.So Mexico has 15 times the amount of measles per capita that we have.Canada has four times the amount of measles.England has two times the amount of measles.

Did I cause those measles outbreaks?Did I cause 137 ,000 cases of measles in Europe?

You're the most famous vaccine skeptic on the planet.

Let me tell you, because actually Anthony Fauci in his diaries answers the question about why we're having a measles outbreak right now.reason we're having a measles outbreak because of the covid lockdowns because people didn't like children during that period did not get vaccinated.And in his diaries he says this is going to cause massive outbreaks of measles and more children.He says this are going to die.Let me finish.You could accuse me of something.

Let me know.

I didn't.I asked you a question.

Yeah.Let me give you the answer.He says in his diaries more children are going to die from measles because of these lockdowns and covid.So if you want to know, and that age group that should have gotten the MMR when they were 18 months and didn't get it, they're the ones being infected.The people in this country, and we have stopped the outbreaks at record speed in South Carolina, in Texas, in Utah, in Virginia.We've done better than any country in the world.

I dispatch immediately the epidemic intelligence services to those states.I get on the phone with the governor and we stop them in their tracks.Nobody else has been able to do that.

You have a bully.

Let me tell you just...last thing.The communities that are suffering from measles are almost all religious communities that just don't vaccinate.The Mennonites have not vaccinated since 1796, since Edward Jenner invented the smallpox vaccine.It's hard to blame that on me, as much as you want to blame it on me.

No, I don't want to blame you.I'm asking you because you have a very powerful voice on these issues for people who are skeptical.Let me finish.Let me finish.

I've never questioned the efficacy of the MMR vaccine.

OK, let me let me finish.What I want you to do is please use your bully pulpit to right now, as we're getting close to back to school, say, are you willing to say to parents who have not vaccinated their kids that they should vaccinate their kids for measles, because it is safe and it will help them save their children's lives.

A measles vaccine is effective.It stops measles in about 97 percent of the cases.People should get vaccinated.

Can I ask you the Wall Street Journal reported that the president is pressuring you to conduct studies probing the link between vaccines and autism.Is that true.

Did you say probing the link.

that what what the wall.I'm just quoting The Wall Street Journal that they that the president wants you to go further to probe the link between autism and vaccines.He certainly does.OK.Now have you talked to him about medical research that have studied this for 25 years and found no link between autism and vaccines.And and and just that this is my question here because I don't want to litigate that.

My question is why not.Because you are HHS secretary now.why not study what could cause autism, which scientists do believe starts with fetal brain development?Why not do some studies on that, whether you're an environmental lawyer, whether there are environmental factors that go into contributing to a predisposed genetic situation?

Let me say this first.We're doing all those things.And that's one of the ways that we found Tylenol.There's 73 studies out there and linked Tylenol exposure during later pregnancy and during the perinatal period to to autism onset.But you are wrong when you say that this issue has been studied.It has been studied, and you're rolling your eyes, Dan, but this is another example.

I am, because I don't want to have you use our air to say this.There have been more than 40 studies involving 5 .6 million people to conclude there is no link between vaccines and autism.This is the head of the Committee of Infectious Diseases for the American Academy of Pediatrics.

Let me tell you what the Institute of Medicine says, which is the National Academy of Sciences.which is the ultimate arbiter on vaccine safety, in which it does not have an interest in this debate.It says that none of the eight vaccines that are administered during the first six months of life have ever been studied for a relationship to autism.It found two studies, one on the DTP vaccine that showed that it does cause autism, and one on the hepatitis B vaccine that, again, suggests that it does cause autism.The Institute of Medicine dismissed those two studies because they were based on CDC's database.The studies that you're referring to are all from one vaccine, the MMR vaccine, or one ingredient, thimerosal.

So you are using, you are actually looking at, you're starting new studies to try to link autism, but you're also telling me...

I'm not trying to link autism to anything.I'm trying to find out why has autism gone from less than one...

Are you also trying to find out how it interacts with people's DNA, what's predisposed to have an autistic child?Are you doing both?

Yeah, but...But Dana, you probably don't understand this because you're not a scientist, but you're not either.Genes don't cause.I understand genes.

I have a vulnerability.A gene provides an environmental.That's what I'm asking.

Are you studying all the different environmental exposures?But your statement, you have been fooled.Your statement that this has been studied is not true.It's categorical.

It is considered any of this.It is considered.Considered by who?By every scientist who has studied this.That is not true.It is true.

I can give you hundreds of scientists who have looked at this and said, why is it?

So on the one hand, do you understand why people aren't getting it?

It's the National Academy of Sciences.What greater authority do you have than that?

Do you understand why people are not getting measles vaccines?Because they're hearing you say that it could cause autism.

You're trying to change the subject.I'm not.It's very much related.Hey, look.Show me one of the studies that's been done on the first eight The vaccines during the first six months of life, you will not find them.The National Academy of Sciences says they do not exist.

So if that's the case, then why are you telling people to get the measles vaccine?

Because that is one of the vaccines that has been studied.It's the only one that has been studied.

Do you want people to get the MMR vaccine?

Yeah, I said that already.I know you're flustered now.

I'm not frustrated at all.I am frustrated.The reason I'm frustrated is because you are the HHS secretary.and you are talking about things that that that lead to vaccine hesitancy in this country.And and it is something that causes problems for people.I mean there is not anything.

Let me ask you something.Do you see your job.as ending vaccine hesitancy, or do you see your job as telling the truth to the American people?

I see my job as telling the truth.And the truth is that there is study after study after study.It's one of the most studied things out there in science.You're repeating it like a parrot.

You're repeating it like a parrot.So are you.

I've actually read the science.Let's you and I come back here and debate the science.I'm not debating this.Of course you are.No, because I'm not debating this.

All you know how to do is repeat things that people told you and say, trust the experts.That's what you did during COVID.Now we know that Anthony Fauci, who was the expert, was lying about everything, about mass, about the social distancing, about natural immunity, about the transmission from the vaccine, about the source of COVID.He was lying, and you were punishing people for not trusting the experts.And now you're rolling out the experts again.to talk about something that you have no personal knowledge of.

OK.Well guess what.That is my job to talk to people.Your job is to tell the truth to the American public.Yes.And my job is to get as much information as I can.

And what we were doing.What we were doing.What we were doing in covid and and still.with regard to these vaccines is getting the best information, the best science that we can, and putting it out there.And, sir, what you are doing is causing information to be out there that is not accurate.The National Academy of Sciences, which you just cited,

in November said we support the statement that vaccines do not cause autism.This is the National Academy of Sciences that you just talked about.

Look at the National Academy of Science most recent report.

OK.And you'll say I want to ask you one other question because it's something that really did help.Donald Trump get elected and that is the Maha movement and specifically the question of processed foods of processed foods and the fact that people want to feel that their food is safe.My understanding is that you are pushing for reforms on food safety and ultra processed foods that have been slowed in some cases blocked by people in the administration who are working on behalf of the industry.Is that true.

No that is not true.

So you feel that you'll be able to get these reforms done without any problems.

I think the grass on the two big reforms that you're probably talking about is ultra processed food definition and the grass standards.They've both gone through extensive interagency process.I'm very confident that we will get them both out there within probably a month.

Well I'm sorry that this and that's good news for people who are very moms.And I'm one of them who are very worried about making sure that our kids eat food and we eat food that is that is healthy.I'm sorry that this turned into a very contentious conversation.And my job is to try to get the best information out there.And it does concern me when you come in and say things that have I don't Take what you're saying, have been just, yeah, people who have scientific backgrounds and who I know have tried to talk to you as well.Thank you for coming in.