Kemi Badenoch's emotional reaction in the wake of 'heartbreaking' Henry Nowak murder

You can see the Conservative leader, Kemi Badenock, joins us this morning.And in the last few minutes, the leader of Reform UK, Nigel Farage, has addressed the nation, in his words, on the shocking case of the 18 -year -old student Henry Novak's murder.Let's hear what he had to say this morning.

that we're living in a two -tier culture in this country where the rights and privileges of white people matter less than those of ethnic minorities.

Well, it's interesting that Nigel Farage says that because, of course, we have given this story an enormous amount of prominence.It is a vitally important argument.case.I mean, the tragedy of Henry Novak and the dignity of his father outside court and his whole family and the trauma that they are experiencing has been prominent in our coverage this morning.

That's right.We're joined now by the leader of the Conservatives, Kemi Badenoch.Terrible, terrible case.And the sentencing yesterday, a 21 -year sentence.

Well, a life sentence, with a minimum of 21 years.

The father's kind of statement in the court afterwards was so powerful, so emotional.He said, as part of that, that he didn't want politics to exploit his son's murder.Is that what Nigel Farage is doing?

So we should not make this about Nigel Farage.This is about Henry Novak.And I listened to his father and it was absolutely heartbreaking.And this morning I watched that body cam footage and I just kept thinking, what if that was my boy?that his last moments, his last moments werespent in handcuffs.

He knew he was dying and he could see the confusion, his attacker claiming that he had been a racist.It's an awful, awful way for anyone to die.And I don't think anyone should, it doesn't matter whether it's politicians or the police or the public, the first place we need to start is what that boy had gone through and what his family is going through.Now, what Nigel Farage is saying, completely misunderstands that when the case is happening, politicians, he is a politician by the way, he should stop pretending that he's not, he's a politician like everyone else.We wait until the sentencing before we say what we think so that we don't impact the case.That's why I'm here this morning.

That case shows that something has gone very horribly wrong with policing and I think I know why.I think that in 2020, 2021, there was a response to the George Floyd murders that is overcorrected and caused a lot of problems.I put out a report...That was Black Lives Matter.

Nigel Farage said today it should be white lives matter.Are you making the same point?

It should be everyone matters.It should be everyone matters.I put out a report in 2021 saying that our country is not racist and our police are not institutionally racist.Reports from the 90s said that they had been at the time, but in 2020 and even now, they are not.I had meetings with the National Police Chiefs Council, the Met, the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners, the College of Policing.telling them that a lot of the race action plans that they had brought in because of the BLM movement were going to cause more problems.

And they have been warned.They have advisors telling them that they're overseeing their race action plans, activists, and it has overcorrected.And I think the training that many of these police are having don't have any common sense in them.We need to bring back common sense.You don't need to be trained to beor anti -racism to have seen what Henry was experiencing and know that he needed help.

You don't need it.Something has gone wrong with policing.But we all need to take a good, long, hard look at ourselves.It is not just the police.I remember when this movement was happening and I was saying we are creating different rules for different people.All of the people who were taking the knee about a man who died in another country should think about doing the same here.

we need to bring back equality under the law.What Nigel Farage is doing is reinforcing the difference.I have said that we need to find what we have in common, not what separates us.I don't want to hear about Black Lives Matter.I don't want to hear about White Lives Matter.We all matter.

Enough of this nonsense where we keep separating everybody and splitting people into different groups.We are descending into tribalism.I do not want that.It is why I say that we should be a multiracial country, not a multicultural country.Let's have one shared culture.British culture, how the police treat everyone should not matter, depending on the colour of their skin.

And we shouldn't pretend that racism is something that only happens to ethnic minorities.It happens to everybody, black or white.What I do not like is seeing Nigel Farage jump on this issue when he doesn't do any work, he doesn't turn up to Parliament, he doesn't take things seriously, but he sees this as an opportunity for him to grandstand.I am not grandstanding.I will say that a lot more needs to be done.Policing is operationally independent.

I think we need to look a bit more at what is going on in terms of how the police are conducting themselves.There are many hundreds of thousands of great police officers out there.I think we should be specific about what these officers did.There are many good police officers who help people of all colours and all religions every single day.

So to be clear, when Henry's dad says we shouldn't use his son's murder for a political purpose and you're saying that Nigel Farage is doing that.Are you doing that as well or are you saying something about policing?

So I'm talking about how we need to change policing.I'm not making this about the Conservative Party, but I'm also not making this about white people or black people.I think it was wrong for him to do that.We have been racialising too many things.And I did say it at the time, for a lot of the people who were pushing for more specific policies for black people, for Asians, for ethnic minorities, that a backlash will come if you encourage people to think about themselves as being part of a group defined by their skin color, you will encourage everybody to do that.And we are seeing more of this, especially online.

We're seeing more of this.We see ethno -nationalism rising, where people are saying, well, if ethnic minorities are going to do this, if black people or Asians or Muslims are doing this, we'll do this for white people as well.Nigel Farage is taking sides.I'm not taking sides.I'm saying enough of this.We need to stop this racialising of our society.

We are multiracial, yes, but we need to stop using race as a way of defining laws, as a way of hiring people.Let's treat everyone equally.No two -tier policing, no believing that racism only happens to ethnic minorities.It happens to everyone.And the police need to be trained like that, not with the terrible anti -racism training, which is just reverse racism and reverse discrimination.We need to root it out of the system.

I did my bit when I was in government.More needs to be done and we need to look at how independent the police are on this.I don't think that these things should be allowed.The police should be allowed just to do it independently.I think others need to go in and that will require politicians and perhaps legislation.

And there is now an inquiry into what on earth the police thought they were doing when they told Henry Novak that they didn't think he'd been stabbed when he absolutely had and was lying dying.

OK.

It's upsetting.It's incredibly upsetting.

I have a nine -year -old boy.In 10 years, he'll be about that age.He is half black, half white.I bring him up to believe that this country is one where he belongs, and he belongs to every group that he wants to join.be, and that he should never worry about how he'll be treated.And you see that video, and you think, how can we tell our children these things?

I want that to be the reality, and that's what I'm fighting for.

Talking to you now, we can feel your upset and your anger.And we all feel upset and angry about this terrible case.But I feel also that what Nigel Farage is doing live on our televisions today is also making you angry?

It is making me angry because that's not how we solve this.That's not how we solve this.We can't solve it by whipping people up.We can't solve it by making them angry.I do think that politicians need to stop being scared of talking about these things.I've never been scared to talk about it.

I remember at the time when Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner were taking the knee.That's not what we're there for.We're not there to virtue signal and do symbolism.We are there to look at the detail.I put out a report saying what was wrong with policing.And instead, the people who helped write it were called race traitors.

They were attacked for saying that this country is not racist.I was attacked for saying this country is not racist, that there are other problems that we need to look at that are causing disparities.But racism is not the thing that is making our country poorer, that's taking us backwards.We need to stop importing a lot of American issues into the UK.Enough.

Let's just put that issue to one side for the moment, simply because the reason you were originally going to be here was because yesterday we had the release of the Mandelson files, which is directly as a result of your call to see what was going on at the top of government when Peter Mandelson was appointed US ambassador.huge number of files released yesterday.I'm not sure we got to the bottom of why he was appointed at all or what anyone said about him.Lots of gossip at the top of government, an almost complete absence of the Prime Minister in any of these files, and at leasttwo mobile phones missing because they were stolen along the way.Do you feel that it was £1 million worth spending?

So I think that what this has exposed is that Keir Starmer is not really running the country.As one columnist put it, he's around, but he's just not involved in anything.Where are all his documents?Where are the things that he put out there?Not paying attention, not running the country.It has exposed a national security issue.

How can I believe that this man is looking after the country's national security when he puts a man who had been flagged as a national security risk before the vetting had even started in one of the most sensitive intelligence posts?That was wrong.The other thing that it has exposed were the messages that show what the government actually think of themselves, that this is a Labour Party.that just wants to tax people for benefits.I said that at the last budget.I was telling Rachel Reeves that they've become the welfare party, not the party for working people.

And this is what we are seeing.

Although it seems that the Work and Pensions Secretary, Pat McFadden, actually agrees with you.

Yes, although he wouldn't say it publicly.But clearly, the serious Labour people clearly agree with the Conservatives.They wouldn't dare say it publicly.Their private messages show that we have a problem with welfare.We are now spending more on welfare than we get in income tax.sustainable.

You need to bring down the benefits bill.

Sorry, on Sunday we heard your Shadow Home Secretary say that benefits should be restricted for criminals being released from prison and that you are considering as a party restricting how people generally can spend their benefits.Is that really what you're planning to do?Telling people that they can't buy, for instance, a drink if they're on benefits?

We are looking at it.As I said, we're now spending more on welfare than we are getting from income tax.That's going to destroy the whole welfare system.Welfare should be for the most vulnerable people, for those who are disabled, who really can't work, and it should be to help you live your life.And government should tell people how to spend that welfare?Well, it's taxpayers' money.

It's taxpayers' money.It's not their money, it's taxpayers' money.But what we are looking at right now, it's not yet policy, but we are seriously considering, where somebody perhaps has an addiction problem, gambling, should they be spending their benefits on that when they have also committed crime?

So pensioners for instance, the greatest recipients of welfare, you would say if you're a pensioner and you're receiving your state pension you can't spend it on cigarettes?

Well that's different, they've contributed for their state pension.That's very different from benefits.But also we're looking at criminals in particular.There are many people who have committed crimes and they can live a life on benefits.We want them to not be spending our money, and it is our money, on enjoying themselves gambling and drinking when they should be working.

Can I just go back to the Mandelson messages?Great coup for you.It was you and Labour backbenchers who got all of these messages out there.Very embarrassing for the government.Most of them not about the Mandelson appointment as we're just discussing about welfare.I just wonder what impact is this going to have?

I mean, when you were a government minister, you sent lots of text messages, WhatsApps in private.Do you think now it's going to become impossible for ministers to communicate between themselves, to message and WhatsApp, because you never know if all this is going to be out in the public domain.

No, I don't think so.There's no difference between a WhatsApp and a telephone call.People speak to each other all the time.What this shows is that this is a Labour party that is full of people who are confused about why they're there.They don't know how to deliver anything.Pardon me.

You look at the messages between ministers.

You wouldn't want to publish your messages from your time as a minister.

Do you know what?If you looked at the messages from my time as a minister, you would have been seeing me criticising a lotof what was going on.Can we see them?Well, no.Why don't we see them?

That would be great.Well, they've probably all disappeared now.It was a long time ago.I thought you were against disappearing messages.No, no, no, no, no.from my work phone don't disappear.

I'm very happy for people to see those.But I did everything by the book.But what I'm saying is that I didn't keep quiet when I saw stuff going wrong.I spoke out.All of this stuff, the things that we're talking about with Henry Novak, people would have seen the messages I put out that this needs to stop, this needs to happen.And I did stop a lot of things.

People don't see the things that you stop.They only see the things that keep happening.And I was just the equalities minister.There is a lot that we need to do in terms of how government is run across the whole state.the police, the NHS, in education, and that's one of the things the Conservative Party is looking at now.

Kemi Bain, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning.Thank you.