Lee Anderson clashes with Charlotte Hawkins over Reform UK’s small boats plan

Thank you for joining us.I know you're there to look around the camps.You were there three years ago, weren't you?What's the situation there that you've found, and how has that changed in the last few years?

Well, it's changed considerably, Charlotte.When I came three and a half years ago with the Home Affairs Select Committee, the camp I visited just outside Calais was full of men, just men, and men only.And the vast majority were from places like Sudan.and Eritrea but the camp we visited yesterday was much much bigger probably two and a half thousand people in the camp both sides of the roads but a lot more nationalities this time and a lot more women and a lot more children and the one of the standout things from the visit was the amount of men that were there that weren't prepared to talk to us and were walking around the camp with their faces covered as soon as they saw a camera.It makes you sort of wonder what they're trying to hide, why they don't want their identity revealing in these camps and I think a lot of us are very very suspicious of this.

You will know of course that on this programme two days ago we had your spokesman Zia Yusuf.announcing and trying to explain Reform UK's policy, if elected at the next election, of turning back the boats with the Royal Navy, turning them back by force and, if necessary, escorting the boats all the way through French waters and onto the beaches.Now, we did put it to him quite strongly that the French were very unlikely to wear that.He kind of shrugged that off.But we heard yesterday the French government officially saying, absolutely no way.You will not come into our waters like this.

And the reform response was to say, We don't care what you think, France.We'll do it anyway.Is that really a responsible way for a government to behave?

I think what a responsible TV presenter would do, Richard, is actually watch the programme from the other day.At no point did Jussef say we would turn the boats back.He said they would be rescued in the sea, collected, put on our boats, and taken back to France.And as people in the mainstream media like yourself and the journalists that we've got out here think that for some reason that we can't do that, yet just yesterday a boat was rescued in the Channel, I think 150 -odd migrants were taken off that boat by British and French authorities and brought back to France.So it proves They can be done, and every single dinghy that gets into the channel.We've been there this morning to look at the route they use.

Every single dinghy.that goes into that channel is at risk from sinking, and lives are at risk.So we're quite within our rights to pick up these people and take them back to France.

OK, I like your mocks, Mr Anderson.It's great to take a couple of punches from you, but you didn't answer the question.

I did answer the question.

No, I'm afraid you didn't.I'll put it to you again.OK, then let me answer it a different way in a way that you can understand.If you don't know what I'm going to ask you.

Let me answer it in a different way.So we've spent close on a billion pounds.We've given that to the French over the past couple of years to stop this migrant problem.They've got camps in northern France that's creating all sorts of mayhem and crime in the local towns.We've got people dying in the Channel.We've got women and children in these camps that's living in squalid conditions.

If we can come up with a policy that stops this, that helps France solve their migration problem, that stops deaths in in the channel and stops the migrants coming to our country then why wouldn't the French agree to that?

Well they haven't agreed to it though because they've said following the announcement of your proposed policy this would be a violation of French sovereignty as well as a violation of maritime law and international law.That's been the response from the French government, that's the official response to your proposal.

What kind of country?What kind of country would allow for people to continue to die in the English Channel?If the French don't agree to it, basically they're signing the death warrant for more people to die in that channel.I don't think any country would do that.

Well, your party said yesterday that if the French did try and stop British naval vessels from coming into French waters and delivering those migrants onto the French beaches, there would be a problem.You seem to be saying that you're prepared to take on the French Navy with the British Navy.

Listen, what we're prepared to do is save lives and rescue people in the English Channel.And I cannot see any country, France included, that would refuse that option.But they have refused it.But they have refused it.No, they haven't, because it's not been tried yet, has it?They've said that it's not legal.

Listen, guys, yesterday we picked up people out of the English Channel and took them back to France.They didn't refuse that, did they?

But you didn't.But you didn't have British naval vessels going into French waters.And what the French are saying is, they won't allow you to do that.So we'll have a stand on it.

I think you're missing the point, guys.Once the migrants and the people smugglers realise that they're not getting through, they will stop coming, and that will save lives.And that's got to be good for France, and it's got to be good for the UK as well, and good for the migrants.

There's still the sticking point of the French not letting you do this.

How do you know?

Because they've said it's a violation of their sovereignty and it wouldn't be legal.They have said that.

Absolute nonsense.Absolute nonsense.

But that is what they've said and you would not be able to do it without their agreement.

Guys, they took 150 back yesterday.We want to save lives in the English Channel.

Which, as you know, yesterday's incident was obviously one that was particular, because there'd been a large fire, it was a life -saving mission.The French have been clear that your plans would not be legal.

There's not one of these dinghies, these new mega dinghies, it's crammed with 150, 160 people, would make that journey across the channel.The only way those peoplegetting across the Channel is to be picked up by the French, then dropped off to the British authorities, and then transported to the UK.Every single one of those dinghies runs the risk of sinking and drowning lots and lots of people.If we can rescue those people, take them back to France, and in the meantime, that helps France with their migrations problem, which Which country would refuse that?

I mean, it's absolutely madness to suggest that they don't want their migration problem solved as well.We keep having this same conversation.We keep having this same conversation.Well, you keep asking the same question, but you don't like the answer.I'm just telling you what the French are saying.You don't like the answer I'm giving you.

Have you actually spoken to the French authorities about this?Because they seem very clear that they wouldn't accept this proposal.

The French authorities want to stop people crossing the English Channel.OK, but have you spoken to them?This is solution to that.

about your proposal?

I've not personally spoken to the French.

Has your party spoken?No.

But listen...Has reform spoken to the French?

Have you discussed this with the French?

Listen, it doesn't matter, Richard.We want to save lives in the English Channel.

But it does matter if it's a policy that won't work.If it's not a feasible policy because the French won't allow you to do it, But why wouldn't they do that?

Why wouldn't they allow us?

This is not possible in England.

You keep asking the question.

It violates their sovereignty, and it wouldn't be legal in their view.

Why wouldn't the French want to save lives?

Let me answer your question.And you've asked it quite a few times.You've said, which country, which country would possibly stop us doing this?The answer, sir, is France.That's the country that will stop you doing it.They've been explicit.

They haven't just said, we'll look at this, we're not that happy about it, and we'll discuss it.They've issued an absolutely blunt rejection of your plan yesterday.An official spokesman for the French government has said this plan by reform will not run.We will not accept it.We will not accept British naval vessels coming into our territorial waters.because it is illegal.

So that's their answer to you.

So it's illegal to save lives in the English Channel.I think we're not going to agree on this, guys.It's not been tested yet.It's not been tried.So, I mean, how do you know?How do you know it won't work?

It's not been tried.

Well, I mean, it's not for us to say whether it's going to work or not.We're just putting...We're telling you what the French...Well, it is.That's what you're saying.

You're telling me it won't work.

We're telling you what the French government is saying, and you would not be able to do it without the agreement of the French government.I'm telling you what reforms policy is.And you don't have...Our policy is to rescue people...You don't have the agreement of the French government.

...in the English Channel and to return them back to France...It's not workable, is it, though?...and stop this awful trade.

It's not workable.

And it will work.

And it will save lives.It's not workable.Without the agreement of the French government, it's not a workable policy.

It will save lives, 100%.

OK, I don't think we can go much further on this.Because, I mean, we're trying to, as Charlotte says, we're not actually, it's not up to us to criticise your policy.It may be a wonderful policy.

Oh, you are criticising it.

No, we're just pointing out that it won't work without the agreement of the French authorities.Well, that's criticism.No, it's just a fact.I'm telling you what the French government are saying.

It's not a fact.

It's not.

It's not a fact, Charlotte, if it's not been tried yet.

This is a fact that the French government are telling you it would be a violation of their sovereignty and it wouldn't be legal.That's a fact to say.

And it's a violation of our sovereignty with the French keep escorting these people across the English Channel.Many of these migrants are going to commit awful, awful crimes in our country.That's a violation of our sovereignty and my constituents are fed up with it.

Well, I'm not, you know, things need to be done, but if the French won't agree to it, then unfortunately it's not a workable policy.

Like I said, Sian, I've said it about ten times now, we don't know until we've tried it.

Okay, well, perhaps if you speak to the French authorities and follow up with them and see if you can change their minds.

Well, funnily enough, I spoke to some French authorities this morning.We've been hassled on the beach, two days on the trot, armedturned up yesterday to clear us off the beach, they've turned up again this morning armed to the teeth harassing us on the beaches, if they showed as much, as much, if they put as much effort into stopping the migrants crossing the channel as they have stopping us to get on the beaches this morning and yesterday morning then maybe they could reduce the numbers as well.

No.All right.Well, look, thank you very much for explaining your policy.Welcome.And you're welcome to the airtime that we've shared with you.Thank you very much indeed.

Thank you.

Enjoy the rest of your day on the French beaches.