LIVE: MA v. Lindsay Clancy - Day 16 | Accused Killer Mom Trial

Good morning, everyone.Good morning, Council.Good morning.Morning, Ms. Clancy.Before we get going.We may have a little bit of a delay actually starting at this point through no fault really of anyone so I just kind of wanted to come out so maybe we go sidebar can I talk about what the day the schedule is and just so everybody's aware that we're trying to get this moving.

All right, so at this point, what we're going to do is we're going to be in recess.All right.Council, are we ready for the jury?Continuation of the jury trial in the matter of Commonwealth versus Lindsay Clancy.Ms. Clancy is present.She is represented by Attorney Kevin Reddington.

And the Commonwealth is represented by Assistant District Attorney Jennifer Sprague and Assistant District Attorney Shannon Buckingham.Thank you, Madam Clerk.Good morning, members of the jury.Nice to see all of you.I appreciate you being here.So what I'm going to do is we're going to go over the questions that you know are coming, and then what we'll do is we'll get right back into the case.

So the first question, is any member of the jury read, seen, heard, or overheard anything from any source about any aspect of this case that would affect your ability to be fair and impartial?Next question, is there any other serious matter or concern bearing on your service as a juror in this case that anybody needs to bring to my attention?Again, thank you so much for following those instructions.And so what we're going to do now is we broke yesterday.There is current to that witness at this point.And so if the witness could retake the stand at this time.

Good morning doctor.Good morning your honor.Interview that you had of Lindsay regarding her journey on November 29th of 2022.I believe that Ms. Clancy's for Ms. Gelada for treatment.That would be nurse practitioner Gelada?Yes.

Do you know what she complained on November 29th that her symptoms were?She had what is referred to as a flattened effect.Yes, and that was also paired with derealization.And what does that mean?That an individual experiencing derealization doesn't feel things are real.Early December of 22, she was living in Duxbury, is that correct?

That's correct.And she's living with her husband and her three children, three young children, correct?Yes.And was the husband working?Yes.Where was he working?

Pardon me, Attorney Brady?Where was he working?The basement of the house.And she's obviously taking care of Cal and the infant and Dawson and Cora.And the kids were in school a couple of days a week in the preschool, the little sprouts or something like that, right?Yes.

So did she improve at that point, sir, or did she end up going to a perinatal clinic on December 2nd?She did not improve.she was getting worse, she did go to the South Shore Perinatal Clinic.And would that be on December 2nd?December 2nd, yes.And what was the reason, what were her complaints that brought her to South Shore Perinatal Clinic?

on December 7th?Kill herself and she's never going to get any better.Did she also express fear that people could hear her thoughts and that anything adverse would happen?Concern about the children.Her concern was that when people could hear her thoughts, her children would be removed from her care.Now, and keep your voice up, please.

Yes.Did she indicate, and I quote, that she had bad and intrusive thoughts, and she didn't even feel that they were like mine, telling me I should kill myself, my brain is damaged, you're never gonna get better?Yes.And did that type of intrusive thought or persecutory thought continue for a period of time?Yes.It got worse.

Did it get so bad that she ended up doing something?Yes, that's correct.What did she do?She called the suicide hotline.And do you know when that was, sir?That was December 4th, 2022.

Did she receive any help from the suicide hotline?She did not.Why is that?They told us she did not meet the standard of care.She did not have a plan.Did she call the suicide hotline again, if you're aware?

Yes, she did.Do you know when that was?Was that in December?Yes, I believe that was perhaps the following week, around the 15th, but I'm not positive about that.Did she receive help on the second call that she called the suicide hotline?No, she did not.

Can you tell us at this point now, we're talking about in December, let's say towards December 15th or thereabouts, what were her symptom observations that she had about paranoia or things of that nature?Yes.She was having paranoid symptoms of psychosis.Did she have any involvement in her entire life with the police?Never.And did she express that she was in fear or concerned about DCF and or the police in the middle of December 22?

Very much so.What did she say?She was worried that her children would be removed from her and that she would never see them again.Now at this point, what medication was she on?She started to take, at that point, Seroquil, Remeron, and Klonopin.Did she make any complaints at that point about the effect, if any, of medications?

Yes.What did she say?She said she felt like a zombie.Did she present with any particular medical observation that you refer to.I'm not sure I understand your question.Well, paragraph one on page nine, you indicate she presented.

Word that means without pleasure.When someone has anhedonia.Her condition of depression and symptoms of paranoia and intrusive thoughts, et cetera, that we've talked about.It continued unabated.On December 15th of 22, right before the holidays, did she go?Clinic in Rhode Island, Parents and Women's Clinic, partial day hospitalization program.

At some point around that same time frame to Mass General Hospital.Yes, she did.She wasn't there visiting friends, right?That's correct.Why was she there?She was there in the emergency room to seek help.

Did she get help on that day?She did not.So after going to the MGH ER,at some point in December 30th, what did she do?She went back to the emergency room in Advanced General.Now, for example, on December 15th, did Pat Clancy, her husband, get involved with her medical treatment?

Yes.And do the medical records indicate that he did something with her?Yes, he doctor or the nurse practitioner gelato and complain about the medication.Yes.So December 30th 31st of 2022.She was admitted voluntarily to McLean, right?

That's correct.Yes.How long was she there for?She was discharged to, she was there till the 5th.She was discharged January 5th, 2023.Was that a voluntary discharge?

They cleared her as well to be discharged?Yes.That was not what is referred to as AMA or against medical advice, right?Yes.Yes, what?Yes, that's not AMA.

It's not against medical advice.She was following hospital guidelines.She was discharged accordingly.And she wanted to go to her daughter's She wants to go to her daughter Cora's birthday party which was held on the 7th of January.Now at this point, what was her status?Was she weaned off of medication or on her way to being weaned off of medication?

Did her intrusive thoughts, now when she was home in the month of January after Cora's birthday, which I think was on January 7th, Did she continue to have these intensive intrusive thoughts?Yes.Can you tell us, when we say intrusive thoughts, is she referring to intrusive thoughts?you might think of something coming up next week that's bothersome, or is this a medical certainty as to what she was experiencing at that point in January of 2023?She wasn't just having everyday thoughts that we all have, reminding us of...Did she have, at this point, intrusive thoughts continuing regarding the voices in her head that she heard constantly.

Yes.What were these voices saying to her?They were getting worse and they were telling her to kill herself.And as January continued, she was, to your knowledge, using her computer to look up drugs and interactions and side effects and things of that nature?Yes.I think you said premorbidly psychosis.

Are they able to do things like look up things, feeling that she is a homicidal maniac and has to have some help, or is that in the same time frame that she was googling all of the effects of medications on a human being?That she was googling, well let me ask you, what was she googling?Googling words about sociopaths, sociopathy, can you treat a sociopath, what are hallucinations?You had a chance, did you look at the Google searches that she had done that's in evidence and the jurors were able to look at it?Yes.Did she continue to Google the effects of medication, psychotherapy?

numbness, heaviness, unable to, things like that?Yes, all things that are related to the way she was feeling.And if a person is in a psychotic state, are they able to continue to Google and use a computer to look things up?Yes.They're able to use a phone?Yes, people who are in that state can do things that they've done before.

New tasks may be difficult, like changing a tire, but if you looked up things on the internet, you can look them up again.If he drove a car, he can drive a car.Now the moment you're understanding to a reasonable degree of medical certainty that a person who's in a psychotic state is able to drive a car for a short distance, go to one of...So the fact that she's not talking about the unicorns in the corner and she's not slurring her speech and she's not unable to walk, to your opinion, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, does that mean that she's not in a psychotic state?It does not.Would you tell us, after she took Cora to the doctors and the jurors have had a chance to look at the exhibits, there's photographs between her and her husband, Pat, back and forth.

In the afternoon, what did she do?She built a snowman in the backyard with two of her kids.Later in that day, Google directions to a woman in that type of estate.Did the voices or the intrusive thoughts to your interview and your understanding abate or stop at that point on January 24th?No.Did they continue?

Yes.Text with her husband about getting dinner and getting something that was prescribed by the doctor, right?Yes.Does that make sense that if somebody is in a state where they're having these symptoms that they're able to remember that the doctor wanted child to have Pedialyze and she tells her husband to get Pedialyze.it does not interfere with that type of everyday living.She indicated to you, sir, that that evening after the husband had, oh, by the way, was it your understanding from talking on ski trips, had brunches with his friends and was out of the house on a regular basis?

Yes.That night is when the children were killed.Is that correct?Yes.And we've heard repeatedly in the injuries and going to the hospital.Doctor, based on your review of all of the medical records, did you administer any testing, by the way, to her?

Like, you were talking about psychological testing?Yes.And what were the psychological tests that you performed?Initially, I did a mini mental status exam.M -M -S -E, Mini Mental Status Examination.Very common test.

Okay.Demonstrating whether Someone has a field of knowledge, who's the president, what directions you travel, and basic things like where are you, what day is today, who are you, and then I did another test as well.What other test was that, sir?That's the HARE, psychopathy checklist, H -A -R -E.And do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty based upon the scale that you use to assess whether or not Lindsay Clancy had antisocial personality disorder, also known as sociopathy?Yes.

Is that referred to in the psychology as collateral contacts?Yes.And you reviewed and interviewed a number of people in her family or friends or people in her social circle, is that correct?Yes.Are you familiar with Mass General Hospital doing amajor research program on postpartum psychosis?

Yes.And did they publish an article, a significant article, regarding the circumstances, symptomology and things of that nature of postpartum psychosis?Yes.And would you agree, sir, that the symptoms of postpartum psychosis Postpartum psychosis, have depression.Yes.And were there indications from your review of the medical records that she felt low, flat, tearful, emotional, feeling tense, nervousness?

All of those things, yes.Wanting to talk or be near others?All of those things as well, yes.She indicate that she felt tired, heavy, without energy?Absolutely, yes.Did she indicate that she was having a harder time taking care of her children?

Yes.Did she indicate that she was having issues regarding personal hygiene, not bathing, things of that nature?Yes.Did she indicate that she had severe confusion in actually hearing or seeing things that aren't there?In her case, it would not be seeing, that would be visual hallucinations.But did she complain of hearing things that weren't there, hallucinations?

Yes.Did she complain of thoughts and beliefs that were not within reality and that she was in a disassociated state?out of reality.Did you observe that there were circumstances where she exhibited increased energy, activity, productivity, otherwise known as hypomania?Yes.Did she complain that she had racing thoughts, a quote, busy brain, end quote, increased creativity?

Yes.And when she said in your review of the medical records that she was having a busy brain, did she express the fact that she would get confused and that she thought her brain was damaged?Yes.Unable to sleep?Yes, extremely unable to sleep.So can you tell this jury, sir, in your opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty based upon all of what you have reviewed, all of what we have talked about, all of what you have considered as to whether or not at the time of this incident resulting in the killing of these three little kids that she was suffering from a mental disease or defect capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness of her act, or in the disjunctive, was unable to conform her conduct to the requirements of the law.

In addition, she was unable to conform her behaviors to the rule of law, and she had no appreciation for the wrongfulness of her act.Yesterday, when you first took the stand, Attorney Reddington asked you a little bit about your background, recall that?of being a psychologist and a forensic psychologist.Yes.And fair to say you testified yesterday in on your curriculum.You have previously testified for the Commonwealth, you said, as well as for the defense, correct?

Yes.You referred to defendingand respondents, right?Yes.And so one of the things that you've done in the past is to be what's called a qualified examiner, right?Yes.

You aren't currently not actively doing those examinations, are you?I actually have done one, but I don't actively do that anymore.Okay.And so in those respects, is that when you say you testify for the Commonwealth, is that primarily the work that you would do where you say you testify for the Commonwealth?Yes.And in those evaluations that you contractor with a company that contracts with the Department of Correction on those cases?

Those are what qualified examiners are, that's correct.That's how you become a qualified examiner.Is retained or, takes work in doing evaluations in order to perform independent assessments, are they not?Yes.So they're not hired by the Commonwealth?They are, because the company that retains the qualified examiners is hired by the Commonwealth, and these forensic psychologists are then appointed cases to do these types of examinations.

So it's under the big umbrella of the Commonwealth.So big umbrella Commonwealth, meaning Department of Correction, an agency that's like Commonwealth versus Lindsay Clancy, that's the prosecution.In those proceedings, sometimes it's the district attorney's office who's the moving party.Yes.But it's never the defendant who's the moving party.Never.

And in those types of proceedings, sometimes if you opine a person is what they call sexually dangerous, Or if you find that they're not sexually dangerous, you testify for the respondent.Yes, we're neutral.So you're not testifying for the Commonwealth, you're, as in the prosecution, you're testifying under the big umbrella of the Commonwealth.In an opinion that this patient is sexually dangerous, when you testify, you are working with the district attorney's office and you review your case with the DA, and the way I see it is that you're testifying for the Commonwealth as an independent examiner, but on that day, you're testifying for the Commonwealth or that DA's office.And you haven't done that work in closely rough, a decade, fair to say.No, that's not true.

Well, pre -pandemic, correct?That's not true.So when was the last time you testified for the Commonwealth, meaning the prosecution, in an SDP proceeding?So I was assigned a case through Suffolk County, the sexual dangerousness unit, by ADA, Kelly Ryan, K -E -L -L -A -26.And have you testified at a probable cause hearing for that?No, I wrote a report which was in lieu of testifying.

where you opined that somebody...Fair to say, though, the majority of your work here in Massachusetts over the last few years is contracted with the Committee for Public Counsel Services, correct?Yes.And for the fiscal year of 2024, you were paid by...That's about right.We get paid a fixed rate.

It's a government rate.That's a sign.It was approximately $300 ,000 that you were paid through the Committee of Public Counsel Services.That sounds about right.You also indicated yesterday that you have known Attorney Reddington for a number of years, correct?Yes.

Fair to say you've done quite a bit of work with him over the years?That's an expansive term, but I work with him.It just requires a yes or a no?Yes.And you've also testified that you have your doctorate in clinical psychology, right?Yes.

And you testified yesterday or you told us a lot about prescriber of medications here in the Commonwealth, are you?I am not.And I was not yesterday either when I was asked about that.Right, you told us all about your experience in the military and having that limited ability to prescribe years ago, but as far as you sit here today and in your evaluations that you do today, you don't do forensic psychiatry evaluations, do you?That's correct, but I just want to clarify for a point of accuracy.I was not in the military.

I worked for the...So in...Here in Massachusetts, you conduct primarily forensics, and you are aware that there are particular standards for forensic psychologists working within the criminal justice system, right?Doing evaluations for fitness for duty.although they are law enforcement, they're not engaged or accused of any criminal activity.Well, I'm referring to your role when you come into the court and you testify, as you are today, as a forensics in place by the ABA criminal justice, mental health standards is one of them, right?

You're familiar with that?Yes.And you're familiar with the American Psychological Association specialty guidelines for forensic psychology?Yes.And fair to say that with those standards, they're not required, but people are encouraged to follow them, right?It's just the ABA criminal justice mental health standards actually identify the different types of roles that forensic evaluators have.

in the criminal justice system, including evaluating, consulting, and treating.7 -1 .3 indicates that for evaluative experts, the obligation is to make a thorough and impartial assessment based on sound evaluative methods to reach an objective opinion.Would you agree with that?Yes.And so, again, in the American Psychological Association Specialty Guidelines, section 1 .02, artisan presentations of unrepresentative, incomplete, or inaccurate evidence.Would you agree with that?

Yes.Is that a standard you strive to follow?Yes.Okay.In this case, you indicated that you've been with the case since February, of the year 2023, correct?Yes, 41 months.

And you've authored a report, you said, in June, I believe, of 2026, correct?Yes.But you've also offered other reports or updates of the defendant's condition over the years, is that fair to say?Yes.And you provided a report, an update, I should say, in July of 2025.Yes.

Do you recall that?the defendant was residing at Tewksbury Hospital.Do you recall that?Yes.And that there was a plan transfer to Worcester Recovery Hospital or Worcester Recovery Center and Hospital.Do you recall writing that?

I don't know if it was a plan.It was a hope and a goal, but it was not an official plan.Well, I can provide you with your report if you'd like to review, but it reads currently Ms. Clancy resides at Tewksbury Hospital with a plan transfer to Worcester Recovery Center and Hospital.That sounds right.Yes.Okay.

And that she is presently medication stabilized and is in the process ofto stabilize without them.Do you recall writing that?Yes.So in July, hopefully, as you say, transferred to a different facility, correct?Yes.

And you're aware that currently she's still at Tewksbury Hospital?Yes.And currently she's still taking psychotropic medications?That's true, yes.I think you also write in that report, I'll strike that six, You would agree with me that in an evaluation for criminal records in your reports, correct?Yes.

You want to make sure you get the facts right, right?Yes.Because your evaluation is not just based on what you learn from the individual you're evaluating, but also an independent review, an unbiased review of the records, of the facts.Is that fair to say?Yes.Okay.

In your report, you indicate that the period of evaluation that you had with this individual is approximately 45 hours.I've met with her a total of 45 hours, but the evaluation was more than 35 hours, and I think it was 37 hours.Okay, and you also said yesterday that times at least.Not 60 additional times, but in total, yes.With the person that you're evaluating?It does happen, but it's not typical.

You also indicated yesterday that One of, how you became involved in this case is Attorney Reddington called you and asked you to go check on the, I think you said mental well -being?Is that what you're?testimony is?Mental health and mental well -being at the time of her admittance to Brigham and Women's Hospital, which was roughly late January 2023.And your first time there as a potential patient at that point?I was examining her as a colleague and friend of Attorney Reddington to see how she was faring.

There was no predetermined notion whether I would be interested or willing or even offered the opportunity to take in a bed in ICU locked to the bed frame and no one was able to visit her.So you went in to visit her?Yes.And when you went in to visit her, you indicated that she had recently been extubated in your testimony yesterday.You're aware from the review of the records that she was extubated on January 28th.Yes, so the difference between January 28th, and breathe on our own, and express verbal language.

And you're aware of the hospital, including psychiatrists, right?I don't know if I knew at that time, but I knew she had been speaking with the doctors and staff, but not specifically who it was.A person who goes through major trauma, and is at a hospital, and has made suicidal attempts, in your opinion, it would be, behoove the hospital to have that person talk to a psychiatrist.In addition to meeting with the staff and the psychiatry team.I don't know how many times but I am aware that there was an attorney Gelb who was somehow involved in the case.Okay so there was somebody that came in to see her prior to you coming in to see her.

Yes.Now you testified yesterday that you performeda mental status exam that day on February 4th.Do you recall that?I do.Where in your report or the previous report from July or your June report, do you outline the results of your mental status exam?

Who they are, where they are, and if they're clear of mentition and thinking, then I'll meet with them.But if they're not, I won't.It's a sine qua non.You do that just to make sure you can keep meeting with them and that they are able to understand what you're talking about.Standard practice.But you indicated yesterday that she didn't know who she was, right?

Yes.She didn't know where she was.Yes.But I believe your testimony was that she did remember what happened, but she was foggy as to what happened.Yes, that's correct.And she actually, according to your testimony yesterday, asked you for something and you clearly understood what she was asking for.

Yes.And you indicated that she asked to call her husband, right?Yes.Had you spoken with her husband before?Not have the phone number to call.So she provided you with a phone number to dial so that she could call him on speakerphone, right?

Yes.And she remembered the number?Yes.And so you indicated on that day, on February 4th, that she left a voicemail, right?Yes.So in that voicemail message, were you able to identify that it was Patrick Clancy's phone?

Did it say, hey, this is Pat, leave a message or something to that effect?I don't remember the salutation from the voice recording, but there was no evidence that it was not Patrick Clancy.And as far as her confidence in the number, she gave it to you with no issue, did she not?That's correct.She didn't have her own cell phone to refer to, did she?That's correct.

Or a pad of paper where all the numbers were written down?She didn't.You indicated thatleft a message.Do you recall what the message was?She expressed her love for him, wanted to know how he was doing, and that was pretty much it.

And again, you said that you didn't write down what the mental status exam was, but the fact that she was able to relay that message, was it clear and coherent what she was saying?Yes, mental status exams are multiple to have a conversation with someone.And she was able to have a conversation with you that day?Yes.You said you went back on February 6th and met with her again, correct?Yes.

And you guys made another attempt at calling Patrick.Yes.Again, did you remember the number?Did you have it stored in your phone?No.Did she provide you his phone number to call?

Well, it was in my phone.I could just look it up on my phone.I didn't write it down.I didn't enter his name.Either she gave it to me again or I just looked it up from two days prior.But you don't recall as you sit here today which it was, do you?

No.And you didn't write a report about that interaction, did you?I did not.So in the second phone call, you were able to actually hear that she was talking with Patrick on the other end, right?Yes.And at that time when you were now self -care proxy from Patrick to her parents?

I did not know that.Did you talk to Patrick in between the 4th and the 6th to find out if he had tried to come in to visit her?I didn't speak to him at all so I knew nothing about what his plans or intentions were.Your testimony yesterday was that she had called him to tell him that she loved him and to see where they were at, right?Yes.That was your testimony?

Meaning what, their relationship?I made no interpretation of what that meant.She left the message and we left it at that.But in that subsequent conversation that you were a witness to where they were speaking on the phone and she told them about these voices or explained about the voices, did she ask about the kids?She did not, as I recall.Now, in all of the times over the course of the last few years that you've met with Miss Clancy, how many times has she told you since the incident that she's heard a voice?

She has not heard voices since the event took place in 2023.And is that based on one of these 35 hours worth of conversations you had with her?How do you know that?They were collateral contacts.I spoke to other people who I asked the nature of their interactions with Ms. Clancy, and it was not officially disclosed.Pardon me?

You have to let him finish.So they disclosed information to me that Ms. Clancy shared that information with them.So who did she tell that she...She spoke to a chaplain named Sheila Cavanaugh, who I spoke with, and Chaplain Cavanaugh told me that Ms. Clancy told hershe heard a male voice instructing her to first kill her children.She delivered to Patrick that day on the phone.

You heard from a chaplain at Brigham and Women's Hospital after the incident occurred in January of 2023?Yes.And so from all of the records that you reviewed of her treatment and all of the interviews with her family, Who did she tell that she heard voices telling her to kill herself?I believe she told family members.Which family members?I believe she may have said that to her mother.

She, I believe, told her husband that she felt like killing herself as well.In the records with the providers, you're aware, you've reviewed them all and you've sat through all of their testimony, you're aware that she was telling her to kill herself, did she?No, she was referring to...It's just a yes or no?No.That appear over and over in the notes.

You would agree that it was simply, when asked about what they were, it was simply that she felt like she wanted to die, right?Yes, and...It's just a yes or no?Yes.Now, in your report, you go through what's called the sources of information.You're familiar with that part.

It's pretty standard in a forensic report, right?Yes.Where you list all of the things that you've gone through and reviewed in compiling the information for your report.So in my sources of information, I write, I reviewed the following, but that list is not viewed, but didn't put in the list.Okay, soon the list are the Tewksbury Hospital records that you said you reviewed recently, correct?

Yes, the 7 ,000 pages of those hospital notes.I didn't review all of them at the time, yes.That's not contained, though, in your list in your report, is it?I don't think it is.And you don't cite to any of the Spalding Rehab records in your report coming to your ultimate conclusions, do you?I do not.

And how about the women and infant records, did you list that in your sources of information section?I do not.She was there for one day.Okay, but you've testified about that, right?Yes.Did you review them at all?

Yes.And as far as the McLean records, you don't list the McLean records as a source of information in your report, do you?I did not, but I did review them.Now you've described O'Manick, right?Yes.And I believe you testified to some extent, and you've written in your report, that you identify her writing that in your report?

Yes.That you note that she exercised early before birth?Yes.And while pregnant with Callan?And while post -pregnancy with her children as well, yes.So...

It's part of everyday living.Things sometimes change when you have a baby, and a few weeks later, if you're still doing the same exercise, it's sometimes a reflection of something business, right?Yes.But you're aware that that's a series of workouts in a line of nutritional shakes and exercise plans that millions of people engage in across the country?Yes.If you do something for marketing and you lose all your money,

and then figure out what his definition is So did she tell you she lost money with a beach body?Yes.When was that?It was born.No, when did she tell you?I don't recall that.

Is it in your report?It may be but I'm not sure.Well, I have it with me or do you have it up there?Can you look and point to me where she told you at what point she told you she lost money in this endeavor?I don't after our child was born.in terms of the big picture of what we're here for today.

Wouldn't it be important to know if she actually lost money?I don't really think so.Okay.You also identified the five -mile race that she completed.Was it a five -mile race?Told initially it was a five -mile race.

After my report was submitted, it may have been, with reflection, a 5k race.And you've sat in the courtroom each and every day of this trial, so you've heard all the testimony about the evidence, right?Actually, I've not been here every day, but I've been here most days, yes.You're also aware that prior to the kids being born, that she considered herself a runner, right?Yes.She had a treadmill at her house.

She went to the gym and used the treadmill.She ran other races.Yes.Now, in your report, you indicate that part of the timeline of her medication and her declinethe September time period where she was prescribed the Zoloft, right?Yes.

And you indicate that she had reported, and it's reflected in the records, that she increased the Zoloft, and that's when she couldn't sleep.Instructions were, having reviewed everything in this case, what the pill bottle said as far as the plan for the Zoloft?I'm not sure specifically the incremental plan to go from 25 milligrams to 50 milligrams of Zoloft.And that's Zoloft, right?Brand name Zoloft?Yes.

It says take one oral tablet a day for one week, then increase to two tablets daily thereafter.Right.And again, having been at the majority of this trial, are you aware that there were 30 in that prescription and 23 left in the bottle when they were inventoried?Yes.And those are pills that were in Patrick Clancy's possession at the time of these events in January, you're aware, right?His truck, the lower part of the middle console in his truck.

So if there's only seven pills missing from a prescription that requires the person to take a particular dosage for one week or seven days, how did she double the dose?medication of the same exact dosage and the same exact medication another time and you therefore may have pills that you didn't take the previous month and before they go on to the most current dose.So I am aware of what you're referring to but I don't know if there are other bottles there that you may have had medication still in those pill bottles.Well I'm looking at exhibit number onea record from CVS Pharmacy, which all of these bottles are from, and September 15, 2022, for 30 pills.You aware of that?

Yes.So there's no prior prescription for Sertiline, is there?I don't think so.You also refer to 1129, and your report on page 8, paragraph 2, says on 1129, Paula Gelada, is that supposed to be Rebecca Gelada?Yes.Okay.

So it also says that she prescribed Seroquel to treat Ms. Clancy's anxiety, depressed and unstable mood, and psychotic symptoms of disassociation and derealization.I'm not sure.And in fact, you were present when Ms. Jalota testified and said that she prescribed it at 25 milligrams for insomnia, not for anxiety, depression, unstable mood, or psychotic symptoms.Did she not?It's used off -label.Sometimes medications are made for many things.

Sometimes they're used off -label, not for what they're prescribed for.So that's a medication that is used for sleeping, although it's an antipsychotic.You're aware from reviewing the records and hearing testimony that that initial prescription was for a 25 milligram dose, correct?Yes.And I know you're not a prescriber, but you're aware that a dose for treatment of bipolar is significantly higher than 25 milligrams.Yes.

Now, you've described in your testimony in this court auditory, repeated auditory hallucinations about wanting to kill herself or that she should kill herself and that she is damaged.I have a conversation with her in one of these 35 hours about that particular...or thought or belief?So when I meet with Ms. Clancy, it's not as if I have one conversation on one of the 35 hours.To have thoroughness and exactitude, one does what we call intra -rater reliability.In other words, over the period of time, to confirm what someone says to you to help endorse the veracity or accuracy of that, I asked in different ways over time, and her answers pretty much remained the same.

So when you quote in your report, when questioned about the nature and content of these horrible thoughts, Ms. Clancy stated, quote, like a really bad and intrusive thought that I didn't feel like it was mine, telling me I should kill myself, your brain is damaged, you're never gonna get better, end quote.Where does the quote come to you, at some point?Yes.Okay.This is well after the incident occurred, correct?Yes.

And you reviewed all the records to know that she did not endorse that she was hearing a voice to any of her providers between September and January 23rd of 2023.So when someone...A yes or no, sir.That's a difficult question to say yes or no from because sometimes if someone or a negative response that's misleading.My question to you though, me too, did she tell any of the providers she saw that she heard a voice telling her to kill herself?It's not in the records.

Okay, and you're aware that she has spoken to several forensic psychiatrists and psychologists over the course of this case, right?Not just yourself.Yes, she spoke to April 10th and April 12th of 2026.And then on June 12th of 2026, 1 ,172 days after I initially met with her, then 1 ,1220 days.Where that she, you're referring to Dr. Haliburn, Dr. Mack and Dr. Satoff, correct?Correct.

But you're aware that she also spoke with Dr. Resnick and Dr. Spinelli well before that.On May 5th of 2023, approximately 90 days more or less later.Yes.And you're also aware, sir, that she has never told, she never told Dr. Resnick in a recorded interview, nor Dr. Halperin, Dr. Mack, or Dr. Satoff, that she heard.Sustained.Your testimony is that she told you that she heard this voice.

Fair to say she identified to you that it was her own voice that she heard, correct?That's not correct.So she told you that she heard a male's voice?That's correct.When?On the night of the...

Over the course of time?Was that your testimony?So you're referring to the ongoing negative voices or intrusive thoughts that she was hearing?Correct.Where she felt...Other people could hear those voices, thought broadcasting.

So there are multiple layers here of hearing intrusive thoughts, hearing voices so loud that she believed other people could hear her.Those are two separate phenomena, if you will.In those voices that you are saying she told you she heard about wanting to die,or to kill herself or her brain was damaged, prior to January 24th of 2023, did she say it was her own voice she could hear?It was her own thoughts?She did not identify whose voice it was.

Fair to say the only time she specifically said she heard a male voice was when she recounts the events on January 24th of 2023.Yes, that's accurate.their thoughts would be or could be heard by others and the belief that they are being heard by others, right?Yes, it's a matter of semantics and it's a level of degreeism.Believing and knowing two totally separate things.And believing, having a fixed belief like that would be a delusion, right?

That's correct.A delusion is a fixed false belief that is unshakable and not something you get rid of either through your own efforts to tell divorce to go away or other people saying just, for example, try to stop thinking about it.And the idea that she believed that something was wrong with her brain or that if people could know what was happening that the police might get involved, that is something that could happen if somebody articulates those things, right?Absolutely, it's common sense.In your testimony you indicated that on January 5th of 2023, that's when Ms. Clancy was discharged from McLean Hospital and I think your testimony was that she went in there on Seroquel and I think you indicated Klonopin, correct?Yes.

In your report.in the journal that is an evidence that she hadn't taken Klonopin since November 27th of 2022.She had a prescription for that and I think she may have taken some but may not have been on a regular basis.But you've seen the pages of her journal to know that she's pretty diligent about saying exactly what she took on each particular date.Yes.Leading up to her stay at McLean and even after.

Yes.Now kind of sticking with these medications for a second.You have testified, I think this was yesterday, you testified that you were familiar that after Dawson's birth that she had sought some medication, correct?Yes.And I believe you testified yesterday that she was on trazodone.But in fact, she was prescribed Zoloft after Dawson.

And again, you've talked a lot about that the medications that she was taking, the different medications, didn't provide her with any sort of relief.So it's important to know the different medications she was taking and what the reactions were, right?I don't know if I talked a lot about it.I was asked questions, I answered them honestly.They didn't provide relief, I agree with that.So that was the whole point of her seeking help.

In her history, whether it be medication history, a social history, Family history, those are the ultimate conclusions, right?For everyone, yes, of course.So it's important to be accurate when you're recalling or reporting that information.As much as possible as one can be, yes, that's true.And as far as the medication goes, I think you testified yesterday that she also took medication in nursing school, correct?Yes, she did.

And had Prozac, Welbutrin, and Propanol that she took in nursing school?That's correct.That was for her what's called glossophobia, g -o -l -l -o -s -p -h -o -b -i -a.It's fear of public speaking.Most common fear of for Americans, 85 % of Americans have public speaking phobia, pretty commonplace.But yes, those are the medications she took while she was in nursing school to go through the program.

But that's not what you testified to yesterday.You also mentioned in your testimony, you were asked about the date of December 15th.If I show you the record, is it fair to say she didn't go to Women and Infants on the 15th, but it was actually December 20th?Right, I believe she went to the Mass General Hospital.The Mass General ER, she did not get any help.Do you recall that testimony?

She declined admission to the inpatient.She didn't appreciate, didn't want to do that, so...She did not get help.So...Go ahead.Thank you, Your Honor.

We have something called the subjective baseline.The cognitive appraisal theme.Help is in the eye of the beholder.If she felt she didn't get help, that's how she felt.Well, sir, that was your testimony, not hers.Well, my testimony is based on my evaluation of her.

This is what Ms. Clancy shared with me.For treatment or help, it's her opinion.She then indicated to the Mass General Hospital that she was going to opt for an outpatient program at the Women and Infants, correct?Yes.That's what's in the records?Yes.

And did she tell you that as well?Yes.And as it pertains to the Women and Infants, again, after you review the records, you're aware that a referral had been made to her well before her visit to the ER on the 15th for that same program.I believe so.Now you've indicated in your testimony that it's your opinion that her diagnosis is bipolar disorder with psychotic symptoms, correct?Yes.

And fair to say...I'm not...Can I see counsel's sign please?council so the question I believe was did you review other a report of dr. Resnick in all your sources of information and before you came to a conclusion about diagnosis no I did notOn page 4 of your report, as number 24, forensic psychiatric evaluation of Philip J. Resnick from 9 -27 -24, do you not?I do.

And so that's something you reviewed.I didn't draw my opinion.That wasn't the question, sir.Hold on.Ask the question again.Go ahead.

Did you review his report?prior to authoring your report or coming to your conclusions about diagnosis?I reviewed part of that report and in my...Okay.Now, in talking about your review of records, you indicated that there are several thousand pages of Tewksbury Hospital records, correct?7 ,001 page.

And you, did you review all of those?I would say I looked through them.but I did not read every word on every page.Were you aware that on May 26, 2023, that the defendant was observed by staff in a note stating that she was visible along the unit hallway, self -propelling her wheelchair with her one -to -one staff, that she had a visit with her mother who brought dinner for her, they ate and played games during the visit.Are you aware of that?On May 3 years ago and a few months?

I don't know that.I don't remember.Remember that event and I don't you don't or you do on that day who brought food and she was seen using a wheelchair to travel down the hallway at the hospital.I don't remember if I tell you that was a red.I would not doubt that and December 24th of 2023.Were you aware that?

defendant was observed at Tewksbury, monitored on one -to -one for safety, call that, reading that note on page 613 of the Tewksbury records?Of 2023?Yes.Honestly, I don't.And that would have been Cora's birthday.Okay.

But would you agree with me that if I read that from page 613 in the records, that that would be within that 7001 page of the record?I would not doubt that.How about on January 24, 2024, where she's observed in a note from Tewksbury State Hospital on page 674, saying where the note reads, patient was visible in the milieu, engageable with both staff and select peers, patient accepted select medications as her baseline, that she was pleasant during interactions, self -propelling in wheelchair in the halls, spending much of the record, Not specifically and January 24th 2024 would have been the year anniversary of the incident, correct?Yes, but if I read yes, I believe it's part of the record and on excuse me, May 26th of 2024 from page 922 of the Tewksbury record.Patient monitored one -to -one for safety.She's been monitored for high suicide risk, accepted medication, says BFK and snacks.

She spent some time in the TV room or sitting outside her room utilizing phone.Would you agree that that's a fair reading of page 922?I have no reason to doubt that.Okay, and that she's also observed on that same day Visible on the unit while utilizing her phone outside her room, was able to make her needs known appropriately.Patient was observed playing dominoes with peers in the TV room.That was later in the day on May 26, 2024, which would have been Callen's second birthday.

How about on September 30th of 2024, page 1229 of the Tewksbury record, where it's noted that She was visible in the unit, attended startup slash coffee group.She was assisted with ADLs as needed.She was in safe behavioral control for the duration of the shift.And that later reads, patient visible in the hallways, seated in a wheelchair outside her bedroom using her cell phone, September 30th, 2024, which would have been Dawson's fifth birthday.Do you recall reviewing that in the record?Not off the top of my head, but I have no reason to doubt that's not an accurate record.

December 24th, 2024, page 1 ,442, utilizing her phone, her parents were in to visit and they brought dinner with them, patient accepted Medicaid, no SIB noted or reported.Do you have reason to doubt that that's on page 1 ,442 of the Tewksbury record?I have no reason to doubt that that's not an accurate reflection of what took place that day.And what's SIB?Self -injurious behavior.And so, December 24th, 2024, that would have been Cora's seventh birthday, right?

Yes.So January 24th, 2025 from page 1514 of the Tewksbury records, it reads inpatient treatment goal to work on my mental health and to feel better says she participated in morning ADL routine withstaff assistance.Patient was visible on the milieu at times in the hallway utilizing her phone.No SIB has been reported this shift.Does that, do you have any reason to doubt that that's contained on page 1 ,514?

I have no reason to doubt that.And further observations on that day were that the patient was visible on the unit.She was social with select staff and peers and also seen utilizing her phone.Her parents were in to visit and brought her dinner, or excuse me.Yes.May 26, 2025, page 1782 of the Tewksbury records.

It says she did not engage in any SIB.She was visited by her parents this shift.She attended Startup Group and watched TV.That would have been on May 26, 2025, which would have been Callen's third birthday.Do you have any reason to doubt that in the record?I have no reason to doubt that.

And on September 30, 2025, of the Tewksbury record on page 2056, reads, patient was visible in the behavior issues observed or reported.Do you have any doubt, do you have any reason to doubt that that is an accurate read of page 2056?I have no reason to doubt that that's not accurate.And that would have been September 30th, which would have been Dawson's sixth birthday, right?Yes.Now on December 24th of 2025, page 76 of the patient notes in the Tewksbury Hospital records, it reads,

breakfast, refused lunch, took snacks, utilizing phone, assisted with ADLs, spent some time in the TV room, attended PT, resting in bed after lunch.Do you have any reason to doubt that is contained within the Tewksbury records on page 76?No.And December 24th would have been CORE's eighth birthday, correct?Yes.And on page 152 of the Tewksbury records, January 24th, 2026, this year, patient observed for safety, assess mental status, encourage safe behavioral control, monitoring, patient to participate in groups, that on this particular day, she was also observed compliant with meds, ate breakfast, participated in coffee group, January 24th of 2026.

Do you have any reason to doubt that's within the records?No.And that she was later observed to not have any SIB or behavioral issues, again, on January 24th, 2026.And again, you reviewed or looked at some of them, but not, correct?Yes.Your Honor, I would move to admit these excerpts as the next exhibit, please.

Any objections?No problem.That may be admitted.283.Thank you.And Dr. Zeisel, as far as the records that I respect well, on all of those occasions?

I wouldn't know.I don't know.But you would agree that noting her sleeping habits based on this particular individual's history would be important thing for the hospital to monitor, correct?I would agree with that.Now, in this particular case, Well, let me ask you, and fair to say it's pretty prevalent in most areas of science and forensic psychology and psychiatry, and as far as confirmation bias for psychiatry or providers, it's fair to say that clinicians are warned that they may lean towards or support their own theories and overlook contradictory evidence, and that you have to be aware of that, correct?Yes.

And again, in forensic psychology, the goal is to render an objective opinion, right?Yes.There's a danger for clinicians and forensic psychologists of quickly forming an initial diagnosis before having all the information, correct?Yes.And that confirmation bias, a kenosis, and interpret subsequent information in light of that kind of already perceived diagnosis.So what you're saying, they cling to a diagnosis?

Well, once a diagnosis is reached, they cling to that diagnosis when interpreting subsequent information.That happens, yes.But you would agree that in practice of forensic psychology that it's important not to do that, right?Particularly with the guidelines of criminal responsibility where you don't need a diagnosis, you just need a mental disease or defect.But diagnoses are helpful in understanding whether the person was suffering from this legal construct of a mental disease or defect, correct?That's fair to say.

And it's fairly accepted in the field that if somebody has a disorder or a diagnosed mental illness, that they then in turn suffer from a mental disease or defect, or could.Could, because you can have a phobia, doesn't mean you have a mental disease or defect.If you're afraid to jump out of airplanes, it doesn't make you...Let's keep your voice up.Yes, Ron.So it could, but it doesn't always have to.

Thank you.Of course.And you're aware of the danger of this idea of confirmation bias of having multiple relationships and conflicts in this type of work, correct?Yes.And that's why it's important not to be treating somebody as a patient when you're also evaluating them for this type of legal issue, right?Of course.

You cannot be the therapist.Do you recall in this case submitting recommendations to the court in November of 2020?I know in general, but I don't know specifically what those accommodations requests were.I can't remember them.But you wrote, you authored, and signed.I'm saying I don't remember specifically what those recommendations were.

I know I did that.I'm not asking you that.I'm just asking if you wrote the letter.Hold on.Let me ask a question.Doctor, if you'd listen to the question.

Yes, sir.I'm just asking if you wrote the letter, sir.Yes.And in that letter, you refer to providing essential clinical findings regarding the transportation of my patient, Lindsay Clancy.Do you recall writing that?Yes.

And so at various points throughout, over the years of this case, you have referred to her as your patient.Have you not?I wouldn't be, I think, able to define her as something else.She was a patient who I did a forensic evaluation of.Well, you referred to the court outside of this evaluation you're testifying about to her as your patient in this letter from November 13th of 2025.Right.

I evaluated Miss Clancy, who is a patient.If I evaluated her, then she's my patient as she is.Other doctors wrote the letter.Who whose patient would I be referring to if I'm speaking about Miss Clancy, given that she's my patient?Yes, I wrote she was my patient.That's correct.

And you're aware of, again, the APA guidelines.Providing forensic and therapeutic psychological services to the same individual involves multiple relationships that may impair objectivity and or cause exploitation or other harm.You're aware of that, section 4 .02?Yes.And in this particular case, since the beginning, you've appeared regularly in court hearings, right?Yes.

You've appeared with Attorney Reddington at arraignment proceedings.At his request, yes.Both here and at Tewksbury State Hospital where you were sitting next to the defendant.Yes.And you also on February 8th of 2020was outside the courthouse here and you gave an interview with the Daily News.

Were you commented on this?I just made a comment.That's correct.And at this time, your honor, I'd like to play a clip of the news conference, please.And individuals who do not make those people not mentally ill, they have the capacity for, on occasion, to be able to do things that they've been doing for a long period of time.When you have delusional thinking, fixed beliefs that are unchangeable, and hallucinations, namely grand hallucinations, telling you to do things, telling you to do things that are malevolent, and you believe those voices that tell you you need to control what you're doing,

strictly and familiarly.And that's what we see in the most tragic of cases, where individuals could be healthy and normal, but quite frankly, these are people who one day will be functioning well, but because they have the onset of mental hallucinations, we say, you need to leave the voice captive.So, sir, on December 8th of 2023, When you provided that, okay, had you any of the records that have been presented in the course of this trial?Any of the records that are listed in your sources of information?No.And as you sit here and testify today, you've testified to the same conclusions, correct?

What I said was individuals like that present this way.I was not referring to Ms. Clancy, the ones I clarified present that way.That was not an assessment of Ms. Clancy, that was an assessment of people who go with the.But as you sat here today, you've talked about the fact and worried, you've consistently testified about that throughout the, in addition to, you testified today that, A person in a psychotic state can do things they've done before, but it might be hard for them to do new tasks, right?Yes.So if it's something that is part of their daily life, getting up, caring for the kids, feeding, making a meal, driving a car, those are things that people do every day and a lot of times don't even have to think about, right?

You're aware that on this particular day of this incident, on January...Yes, she had a stomachache.But in addition to maybe her having a stomachache, she had previously had this visit scheduled and you're aware of that now, correct?Yes.And at the doctor, there was a recommendation made for an over -the -counter medication, right?Yes.

and the defendant was able to process that information, take it back with her, and then later, not immediately after the visit, but later in the day, search for where to get that medication, right?Psychoses doesn't lower your intellectual functioning, so you can do all those things.Well, that wasn't my question.My question was, did she do those things?Yes, I said that's correct.Okay.

And would you, you've talked a lot about that a person can operate as normally as they can, but fair to say, if you're in a psychotic state, that person themselves has a significant amount of distress, right?Yes.And that in order to mask those symptoms, it requires an enormous amount of control, does it not?It depends on the level and the extremism of the psychotic processing.So some people will hear voices that are nominal, they whisper.Some people hear voices that are yelling and screaming.

So it's on a range, it's a continuum.the more upsetting, more powerful, demanding the voice, the more difficult it might be to resist it and do other things.The less, the easier it is.In all of the time between September of 2022 and January 23rd of 2023, at any point, she didn't act on them then, did she?person that they're testifying for.Is that right?

It can be, yes.So in other words, if you have a shooting case and you're a ballistics guy and without the ballistics showing no case, they may send an email to that witness and say, hey, I really need your help here.And that might influence them, right?Yes.Now you got involved with this case, as you indicated out of my request, obviously.Yes.

Compatibly in extreme condition.Yes.emotionally, physically, you went to speak with her, correct?I did, yes.Do you care for your patient?Not at all.

Within the ethical standard, meaningful forensic evaluation, it's strongly suggested you develop empathy.You get more information from the respondent.You do not cherry pick the information.You include warts and all in your report.That avoids confirmatory bias, and you avoid confirmatory bias by also not looking at conclusions that other examiners come up with when they render their opinions, and you do your evaluations independent of anyone else.You do it by yourself.

At the time that my report was - No, no, right about now.60 times?How many hours have you put in sitting with Lindsay, either in the hospital or - Oh, more than that, roughly.And you have all of that information that you have brought here today to testify to this jury, is that correct?Yes.Are you confirmed bias?

Are you not telling the truth just to help Lindsay out, or is this your - opinion based upon whether or not you care for her or not.Overruled.Overruled.I am telling the truth.Yeah.You can re -ask that question.

That answer would be stricken.So you can't tell someone you're telling the truth.That's up to the jury to decide.Your opinion is based upon all of the times that you met with Lindsay, right?Yes.All of the documents that you've reviewed.

All of this, all the exhibits that you've reviewed.Evaluation of her.One of the things that DA asked you about is the quest that we brought to the court for accommodations.Do you recall that question from her?Yes.And is it your understanding that the request that we had, seeking help from the judge, was that she not be chained to a van when she's brought into this courthouse for a five -week trial?

Yes, from Tewksbury to Plymouth.And her medical condition with her paralysis and all of the rest of the bodily functions that you lose, that's a concern, isn't that right?Very much so, yes.And we also had to have the help of nurses that would be available.Yes, they're here every day.So confirmation bias, can you tell this jury, is your opinion based upon money?

Maybe you like me, maybe you want to help her, or is that based to your best ability?as a professional of many, many years.Yes.Confirmation bias is coming up with a conclusion before you reach an opinion.It's in Latin, a tabula rasa, a blank slate.You draw no conclusion.

The conclusion finds you.And if you don't do that, you are at risk of having confirmation bias.I'm going to ask you a hypothetical and see if the hypothetical fits within your understanding as an expert of confirmation bias.Let's say, however, that a young woman is involved...an incident such as this that results in the death of her three babies.And that young woman is paralyzed.

And that young woman is in a hospital.That young woman is facing indictments for triple homing and 23.And it's not until 2026 that the District Attorney's Office hires three doctors.to take a break, and then we'll come right back and we'll continue with the testimony.Okay.All rise, please, jury.

The jurors have exited the courtroom, this court's in session.All right, we'll be at a short recess at this time.Thank you.Order is back in session.You may be seated.We'll return now to redirect counsel.

Thank you.In your opinion, with your experience, does the period of time within which an expert is hired by one side or another to evaluate a person and give an opinion.In other words, if it's a compressed period of time as opposed to an expanded period of time, is that one indication of confirmatory bias?Individuals who pay attention to that, and not have any confirmatory bias.What does that mean?It means stay in your lane.

That's better.One of the things that the district attorney did is records from Tewksbury Hospital and read Lindsay after she was taken from Social Hospital to Brigham and Women's, then from Brigham and Women's to the rehab, Spalding Rehab, she ended up in Tewksbury.Is that correct?Yes.And Tewksbury has been very good.I mean, in your opinion, have they been good with her?

Fantastic.Fantastic.But nevertheless, that is still a facility that is a state facility, right?Yes.And the district attorney asked you about the plan to have Lindsay go to another facility, Worcester, I think it was?Worcester Recovery Center Hospital.

Is that a relatively new facility?It's I believe the newest facility.the Commonwealth.And did we have, was he evaluated to have her transferred to Worcester Hospital?Yes.Was she allowed to make entry into Worcester facility?

She was not.Why is that?She was not allowed because she...Nova Rosa.She was not allowed because she has pending criminal charges.That would be this case here, right?

That's this case here.And the district attorney took the 7 ,000 pages in one of the records of the death of her three children, correct?Yes.Went through them to highlight each birthday of her three children, is that correct?Yes.In your opinion, you've been in a lot of medical institutions and facilities in the Commonwealth and out of the state, correct?

Yes.Is it your understanding to a reasonable degree of medical certainty that the hall from one room to another is indicative of anything?Not at all.How about the fact that her mother and father, who have been with her for three years and practically missed not one day of sitting with her and bringing her dinner or lunch, is that something that would be indicative of undercutting the fact that the woman was suffering from mental disease or defect?That's indicative of love.How about the fact that she's talking to other inmates or people that are patients.

In your review of the records, would you tell us your opinion as to her level of degree of popularity, bluntly, in that particular ward?She is extremely, extremely well regarded and well liked on that unit by everyone.Overruled.How aboutand having a good time while she's in the Tewksbury Hospital, did you see anything like that?No, Lindsay Clancy has bad days and worse days.

And when you speak with her and meet with her according to the questioning that you underwent, she never talks about her kids?She does speak about her children.What does she say?She really loves them almost every moment of the day.And finally, Doctor, I'm holding up what has been marked as Exhibit 1 or I, I don't know, for identification.Have you seen this before?

Yes, I have.Do you know what that is?Yes, I do.What is it?It's called the Wish Vase.What does that mean and what is it?

This is a vase that Ms. Clancy and her husband purchased in Hawaii when they went on their honeymoon shortly after getting married.Yeah, sure.Sidebar, please.Comel's objection that may be admitted.Thank you very much.Comel.

Doctor, how many defendants that you've evaluated for criminal responsibility have you spent 35 hours evaluating?One.One other one.One other person.And how many other defendants have you evaluated?I'd say one other one.

And how many other defendantshave you given press conferences about?None.And how many of...I was sequestered on all those other trials.I was not even allowed in the court.

Now, you were asked about confirmation by a gun, right?You recall that line of questioning?Yes, I do.Are you aware that she continually refers to this situation as my tragedy, does she not?That moniker of my tragedy, that's just one of the things that she'll say.All right, thank you.

You're welcome.And what's the reason that, with the understanding of the court permission, that you go to the lockup and see her during this trial?I go to the lockup.Sustained.Well, while she's in Tewksbury, counsel kept referring to S -I -D, S -I -S -I.What is S -I?

S -I is suicide.intention or suicide ideation.In Tewksbury, excuse me, in Tewksbury has there been a concern of suicidal ideation?Yes.And what as a result of that SI, as counsel kept repeating to you through the records, is her status at Tewksbury?She's on a one -to -one, a constant one -to -one to ensure that Ms. Clancy doesn't take her own life.

And that is somewhat similar to the reference in Brigham and Women's Hospital when you were talking with her that there was a nurse that was sitting in the corner of the room at all times, is that right?Yes, that's correct.Inferentially, it was people to leave.Thank you.Counselor, can I see just oneAsked you about to lock up with Lindsay.

To ensure that Miss Clancy is stable and competent to stand trial.Any concerns as far as her SI?She's in good hands at the moment, but there's always a concern that sits directly below the surface.Thank you.You're welcome.Dr. Zeisel, in three years she's never made an attempt to harm herself, has she?

Other than January 24th of 2023.No.Any further questions, Judge?Thank you.All right, thank you, Doctor.Thank you, Your Honor.

Trudy Reddington?It's up to you, Your Honor, as to the Vladimir McLean Hospital witness or Dr. Spinelli, I don't know.All right.Counsel, let me just see in regards to timing on it.Members of the jury, this is another one of those moments I've got to talk to counsel about a matter that I've got to talk to them outside of your presence.All right, so I thought we'd do it at this point and excuse you till 2 o 'clock.

We'll take up the next witness.We're going to stay in here, and we're going to take up that other matter.All right?And so with that, during the break, remember, same instructions.Don't talk about it.Don't do any research about it.

Don't read anything.I don't go anywhere in regards to this.And I'll see everybody at 2 o 'clock.All right, council will be ready.Thank you.She should be right outside.

Good afternoon.Good afternoon.Emily Thorndike, T -H -O -R -N -D -I -K -E.And what town do you live in?I actually live in Brooklyn, New York, but I summer on Cape Cod.I'm spoiled like that, so I'm in Chatham.

So where do you live now?Brooklyn.But where are you living?I'm practicing as a business owner and a therapist.And what is the name of the business?It's called Wise Mind Therapy Practice.

What is it?Wise Mind.And how long have you been doing that?So I had my own private practice for, I opened that January 2023, and then this past May I went to Dover -Sherburn High School, and I went to Hartwick College, and then I went to Boston College School of Social Work.And what degrees do you have?So I have my master's in social, well my BA in sociology, I have my master's in social work, and then I have two social work licenses, I'm a social worker, but you have to get your, it's very confusing, you have to get two licenses.

Since I guess you got your master's at BC or something.Since I got my master's at BC, I did my final year internship at McLean Hospital at their trauma program, and then once I graduated, got my MSW, my master's of social work, and then my social work license, I was offered a jobI went back to the short -term unit at mclean which I had So when you say the short -term unit, is that also referred to as the STU?Yes, we call it the STU.It's just short -term unit.It's also referred to as AB1, which is admissions building first floor.

Are you familiar with this case of Lindsey Clinton?But other than that, I don't know the case at all.And when you say what you watched before you were sequestered, what does that mean?What did you watch?I think it was not this past Thursday, but the one before that.I'm not going to recall the date off the top to no longer watch the trial or consume any of it.

So what were you watching?I had just been watching like the day -to -day, like the live stream and just, yeah.Why is that?I'm interested in the case.I honestly got into sort of watching trials from the Karen Reid trial and then I wanted to watch this case and obviously well I worked at McLean so I was curious to watch it.And when did you work at McLean?

I started there in 2014 and then I left there at the seven years seven eight months I think.what was the nature of your work?What did you do?they do we are the ones to intervene and unfortunately there are a lot of restraints that happen on those units andthat's one of our main jobs.So the STU that you referred to, is that A couple of them at McLean?

So I'll try to explain it.During the time I was there, there was a renovation.They expanded the unit.Two separate units operating the same way.So there's short -term unit north and then there's short -term unit south.And now south has 22 beds and north has 23.

So they're the same unit, but there's a south side and a north side, if that makes sense.Did you work days, nights, weekends, holidays?pretty brutal, but I was day and evening.Now how about the staffing at STU, your experience?So there's always during the, I can sort of start with the week I guess, there's always four mental health specialists and then there's one, one and a half, it's hard to explain, there's There's at night there's three mental health specialists and then there's one nurse on north and one nurse on south and then there's a nurse that goes in between at night to help both sides.And how many beds are in the north and the south?

North is 23, south is 22.And which one was Lindsay in?South.Are you familiar with the code of mass regulations or regulations that mandate or require certain staffing levels within that particular unit, the STU of McLean?Yes, like the Department of Mental Health regulations.Can you tell the judge your understanding of the regulations?

To oversee all of the mental health facilities in Massachusetts and they use it to harm yourself.So DMH, there's usually an annual or biannual inspection and they will go around and they will look at charts, they will look at the unit, so they oversee everything.And do they mandate how many doctors or nurses or safety people would be on a particular unit?Yeah, they definitely have those requirements.And what's your understanding of those requirements?I believe, I'm not sure exactly, I know McLean follows those regulations, but I guess there's potential that McLean might go higher than the ratio, I'm not sure.

So you have to, at minimum, have a certain amount of staff, but I'm not exactly sure on that.So are you aware, in this case, that McLean forwarded to the district attorney's office and the court a certain discovery indicating how many.doctors, nurses, and safety workers.Did you have a chance to read that?I did.Well, let's say on weekends and holidays, for example.

I was there with that document, so I guess that goes to what 2023 it was, so that was how it was when I started.Well, I guess one caveat, when it changed numbers, because with 28 patients you have to have a certain number of staff, but so it started there and from that document that I reviewed.You, in this case, on what, YouTube or something?Yeah.And you had the occasion to hear the cross -examination of Patrick Clancy by the district attorney, is that right?Yes.

You mean the direct.I'm sorry?The direct of Patrick Clancy.Sorry, you're right.It's been a long week.Okay, direct examination.

And the focus was on the fact that when Lindsay went in for that holiday weekend and I think the following Monday was a holiday?Yes.Okay.And you heard the crossings, the direct examination of the district attorney.asking about McLean being number one hospital in the country, McLean having all of these services available to the inmates that are in there, treating them, offering all these fantastic programs on the holiday weekends and the holidays, as opposed to what Patrick had testified to.Did you see that?

We re -asked that question, I think I understand.Okay, when you were watching on the television, you saw the questioning of the district attorney of Patrick Clancy.You heard Patrick Clancy make reference to the fact that his wife admitted herself that weekend into a holiday, and the district attorney then questioning Patrick.inquired as to whether he was aware that it was the best hospital in the country, that there were many doctors and nurses and staff available and programs available, and Lindsey wasn't interested in any of that, right?Yes, that's what I took from it.Now, in your nine, eight, however many years of experience that you've had, is that what your understanding was in that unit?

Uh, no, that's, yeah, no, that's not what I was understanding, no.So tell the judge what your understanding was from your experience, hands on, day after day working in the STU for all of those years.Right.But you also were a supervisor of the STU.I actually wasn't.I became a social worker there.

So I guess you could.One way to look at it is that, you know, the social worker and the psychiatrist, you are the treatment team.So you're making all the decisions.They are operating underneath you.So in a way, I'm supervising, but I'm not a I was never a direct supervisor.Now, you came out with a tick tock.

I did.a real or whatever you call it.Yeah, TikTok.Tell the judge why were you emotional when you did that TikTok?Well, it is a lengthy TikTok.It's about 10 minutes.

And I was emotional because I felt like what was discussed in court was not I noted several things I'll try to summarize some of them.There was mention of seeing a doctor every day.I felt like there was some misleading of that.You do see a doctor every day, but on the weekends and on a holiday, it's one doctor who's seeing all of the patients.The meetings can be as short as one minute.Many patients decline those meetings.

And the doctor who's there on the weekend and holidays is seeing 23 patients.it was misleading to indicate that there's sort of an in -depth doctor session when it's very brief.How about programs that are often like making things out of clay and crayons and stuff like that?Yes, there's clay on the unit, it's called Model Magic, it's a non -toxic kid, I mean it's advertised for kids, but it's on the unit.In the nursing station, it's out on the unit, there is a lot of coloring.There's a specific group that I saw in the documents I reviewed called Music and Mandalas.

Mandalas are basically adult coloring books.The designs are kind of abstract.You could compare it to looking through a kaleidoscope or something, and you color them in.And Music and Mandalas is a group where you play music and the patients color.So you understand from watching the proceedings that you became emotional over is that Lindsay went in on New Year's Eve with some fear, quite frankly, pretty bluntly disgusted with the help and the care that was allegedly offered to her, right?Right.

And you were upset about what you felt.was a misleading of this witness based on the questions that were asked.Is that right?Yes.And Patrick had made reference to the fact that she was doing coloring and she was in the groups that were sitting there dealing with the bluntly any help.Yes, and there's very minimal like family contact when the main treatment team is not there.

So it's not abnormal that families wouldn't be getting like regular or like in -depth updates of what's going on.You're sort of supposed to wait until the treatment team comes back, whether it's on a Monday or in this case a Tuesday, since Monday was a holiday.That's the team who's going to be working with the patient.So most updates and communication with family and with providers aren't gonna happen over the weekend either.Now, one of the things that occurred, just for the background, is that your TikTok was observed by me, and I tried to reach out to you and couldn't find you.That's correct.

And then I had a private investigator, Bob Jones, hunt you down, kind of, and ended up in front of your house.No, Bob and I were sort of chuckling about that, because he never ends up outside of my house, but the rest of it is all accurate.He wasn't outside of my house, but the rest of that was true.So he was able to locate you?He was, yes.He was able to talk to you?

He was, yes.Get your contact information?Yes.Provide that to me.Yep.And as a result of that, I reached out to you and then you indicated that you initially somewhat reluctant, but then ultimately agreed to get involved from that one year period.

When did you leave working there?I want to say my last date was like December 18th.Since working there, you don't get a lot of holidays off.And when was Lindsay in there?December 31st.she came in on New Year's Eve, what would that be?

2022, right?So in your opinion, is there a change that is significant in the staffing, in the nurse to patient ratio, in the safety issues, the crayons, the coloring and all of that?Is there any change from that one year that you left?To the same staffing ratios and all the groups are the same.So there's no change whatsoever.Not from what I can tell from what I reviewed.

Thank you.Good afternoon.Hello.So.You own a licensed independent clinical social worker, right?Yes.

That's the licensor when you're saying that's really what you kind of go by.Yes.I'm a social worker by trade, you could say, but I'm practicing as a therapist.And you do that virtually?Yes.So you don't have a brick and mortar where clients come and engage in therapy.

And you indicated that in your time at McLean Hospital, I didn't start per diem there.I started at a 32 -hour position.At the per diem, there's another position I held at McLean, which is called a community residence counselor.That was a per diem position.And then the social work position I took after graduating and before I went back to McLean, sorry, the short -term unit, that was a per diem position.working per diem.

You said you were the community resident counselor.How long did you do that?It was on the side while I was working on the short -term unit.That was the main unit I worked on, but since I was 32 hours, I was interested in that particular McLean program.so I picked up a shift, you know, every so often, but I was primarily on the short -term unit.As what though?

As you took on a role of clinical social worker there, right?So yes, yes I did.And that was in September of 2019?Yes.And you said you had a chance to review the records that were sent over by McLean, right?Right.

Now, when you were a social worker from September of 2019 to December of 2021, what was your schedule?So I would come in around nine.You could view it as sort of normal business hours.My clinical rounds that I did with all the multidisciplinary staff was at 9 .55, so that was kind of a little bit of my start time.Yes, I did cover weekends on occasion.Social workers, you're not required to, but it's kind of highly encouraged.

So every once in a while, I would cover a weekend as a social worker.Hospital indicate that during the time period of January 1st to January 15th of 2020, it was Monday through Friday.Yeah.And that on January 1st, which was your schedule, was 9 to 5 Monday through Friday.Yeah.From 2019 to 2021.

Yeah.I mean, I did regularly pick up weekends, but yes, primarily I was there during the week.Okay.Now, you provided Attorney Reddington with some kind of like typed up notes.Do you recall that?Yes.

Where you outlined kind of what how inpatient experiences went, like the schedule and that kind of thing.And you noted that as far as the treatment team, which you referred to yourself as a social worker, worked with a psychiatrist, right?And you identified that in your experience there was three teams, red, green, or blue.Yes.But you are also aware that the records show that every day during the week that the treatment team of a social worker and a psychiatrist, there was four social workers and four psychiatrists that were on shift.Right.

So where's the fourth?So the numbers aren't equal.So the medical director often took residents, so he would have a little bit less of a caseload.worker on one unit so for example I had eight patients on my caseload but one of my so three you know some of the doctors and some of the social workers just carried a different number of caseload so but your testimony today after having now reviewed the records is that it's always been for social workers for their for doctors yeah I'm not I didn't say that there wasn't before Well, that's why you're here, because we don't know.Yeah, I just thought I answered your question, but yes.And you came aware of this case by watching the trial, right?

Yes.And so would you say that you were, how many days of the trial did you watch?All of them up until that point.At what point?What day?I'm not remembering the date exactly, not last Thursday, but the Thursday before.

What was the last content of testimony that you remember watching?I believe it was maybe Patrick's friends or, you know, I was aware that there were doctors, you know, doctors coming up that were particularly important for me to not watch.And you were asked by Attorney Reddington here about observing that testimony or the direct examination of Patrick.And I think he mentioned where it was referred to that McLean was the best hospital in the country.Do you recall that being the question?that was asked?

Didn't ask about his opinions of the status of the hospital, but did just verify with reference to records whether or not he knew his wife participated in particular things that were contained within the records.Did you see that in the testimony?Yes.And so you're aware that the testimony actually was that or the question was, were you aware that she declined groups?Yes.And that's based on records you've never seen, right?

Correct.And as far as the con or whatnot, you haven't reviewed any of those records, right?I have not.And so you don't know the extent...You don't know the extent of what the interaction was with the nurse and the patient, do you?I mean, there are some general guidelines that you have to follow.

I can't tell you the content within that because you have other things to do.So I can't speak specifically to what happened in those conversations, but I know the general gist of how everybody's role works.But you, when you say everybody's role, did you ever perform the role of a nurse?No, but I work directly with them.I'm operating on the job description.It says specifically you're under the direction of the nurse.

So I worked directly with nurses.With your knowledge as a mental health specialist, fair to say the last time you were employed as a mental health specialist there and did that work yourself was in May of 2019.The nurses and the mental health specialists, you all really work together.And you can only attest to what you would put in a note, right?All of the patients on the unit, so I'm able and it's not a HIPAA violation to do that because we all work together.Sometimes I cover other social workers' patients, so I do have access.

You have access to all of the records in everybody's, every patient's file, so you can read everybody's.When you are the social worker for a patient on thetreatment team that you've described, you enter the information into the note for the social worker that becomes part of the record?Correct.And those are your words, your observations, your...A certain format.

So, for example, we have to write a bio cycle, or, you know, I learned that in grad school, so I don't know how everybody writes their notes, but we have to follow a pretty strict format to write our notes.And is it your testimony that McLean requires only that each social worker spends a particular period of time or a max amount of time with each patient Yeah, I mean, I have eight patients on my caseload, so there are other tasks I have to do.So you really can't spend a significant amount of time with your patients.That wasn't my question.My question was, does McLean tell you that you can only spend five people above me?It's something that's communicated in a way where you could sort of get in trouble if you're not doing that.

So yes, it comes directly from McLean.And do you have any information, having left there in 2021, that the same people supervising the social workers were giving those same instructions?I mean, no, I don't know that.Do you know anything about how many people were actually occupying beds between January 1st and January 5th of 2023?No, it obviously has a max of, but yeah, so I don't know how many patients were there, but you can have up to 22 there, so yeah.And you've also indicated in your notes to Attorney Reddington that sometimes the people that are there for a particular period of time have the ability to go out on paths.

weekends.Does that, in your experience, does that tend to happen around holidays?Yes.And so you don't know between January 1st and January 5th of 2023 who might have been assigned to a bed there but out on a pass that weekend, do you?No, I don't know what happened that weekend.And that would affect how many people are actually occupying the beds would affect the ratio of staff to patient during that time period, right?

If I'm understanding the question correctly, I mean, It's the same amount of staff there.Are you saying like they?Regardless right by shift right right so if the bed the unit has 22 beds in it, but say five people are off Pass for that weekend.Yeah, then the same staff that are patient has to be assigned to a mental health specialist and a nurse and so when you go on a pass there's a limit and Day and evening shift like the limit of the passes is eight hours so no matter what you have to check in with your staff person before you leave for your pass and you have to check in with your assigned staff when you come back so there's no patient who's not assigned to somebody it's just they might not be on the unit the whole time when you're on your shift.Okay so if they're not there they might not lose a patient on their load, for instance, but that person isn't there that they have to check in with every so often, or they have to check in with about groups, or keep track of, or meet with, right?If they're on a pass, and they're out of the facility for eight hours, they're physically not present, and that worker doesn't have eyes on them.

Yeah, you only check in once per shift anyway, so if they're going, you check in with them before, and when they come back, you check in with them after.But yes, you're not checking in with them when they're off the unit.And you don't know what the numbers were?No, I don't.During that time period.I don't have any other questions.

Thank you.All right.Rankin, I'll hear you on the motion.You may step down.Thank you very much.Thank you.

Your Honor, I think it's obvious that the witness has an educational background.Certainly has the experience, interestingly enough, of that very unit that Lindsay was on for that period of time.Aware of the staffing indicators.that at the time that she was there, it was on a weekend, she indicated about the weekend staffing, the holiday staffing, Patrick was relating to, and indicates the skeleton crew, if you will, in a sense, on that particular period of time in the holidays, which is very corroborative of what Patrick had indicated in his testimony.So I'm not looking to bring her into disparage McLean Hospital.They've done a good job of that themselves.

I'm bringing her in to just have evidence as to what Patrick's testimony was relating to what his wife went through when she was in McLean to corroborate the fact, as opposed to what was raised on multiple programs that she apparently was not interested in participating in, which is very, very, I would argue, improper inference for the jury to consider.All right.Kamal.I would object to the witness, and even now, after the voir dire, I think it's clear that the best evidence of what is the record in and of itself, it's the record from McLean that documents each and every contact, records are clear to say she was transported and she didn't arrive at the scene.McLean until the early morning hours of January 1st.So that's when the records start.

And they document her each and every day and each and every step of the way, consistent with how Dr. Goodhart described the process of how you're intake and then how you go through the day and what the general schedule is and the contact with the treatment team.This witness is offering no more information than what's contained within the record, and no more information that's what's contained in the records that were just received for the trial subpoena.And I would suggest to you that the fact that she, in her last role as a social worker, from 2019 to 2021, where she was a day staff person that worked Monday through Friday, that wasn't there on the weekends, that she does have a limited amount of information, and it's attenuated, more attenuated than we initially believed, From the dates in which the defendant was at this particular hospital.So, I would suggest, or I would object and argue that the best by the particular staff.I'd also like to point out that counsel is referring to offering this to rebut certain inferences or certain statements that the Commonwealth made in the direct examination.That wasn't the testimony.

That wasn't the question put before him.It was simply what he knew, what he observed, and if he knew, what was contained within the record.So there's been no record of what the groups were, and they can make their own decisions based on what they describe them to be in the resources available to the individual while they were there at the hospital.of the therapy comes from the psychiatrist, which this witness can't testify to because she's not.So I would object for her to being called as a witness for those reasons.All right.

All right.Well, I'm looking at this really as kind of two issues.First is late disclosure of the witness.And that goes into a whole different analysis as well.also analysis under rule 403 which is relating to relevant evidence and as that rule proposed rule says evidence may be excluded if its probative value is substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice, confusion of the issues, or misleading the jury or by considerations of, well, that part doesn't apply.First off, I find this witness credible.

I find that and I appreciate her being willing to offer the information that she has, but that's not always the whole finding on this.And so under cases such as Taylor v. Illinois, I'm not considering that evidence of bad faith.There's no bad faith I see from either side in naming this or calling this person at this time.There's the prejudice to the other party.I think there's just limited prejudice, if any, to the Commonwealth.However, though, the final two are the issues that I think are more relevant in this.

One is the materiality of the testimony in this.And I find that there's limited materiality, that's hard to say, because mainly, this witness hadn't worked there for a year.So there's at least a gap between when she worked there and when the relevant time period is here.There's also, I imagine, different personnel that are working on different shifts.And so, there's kind of limited value to that testimony.I also, I don't remember any five -star type In fact, so I'm not going to, that's going to be measured by the jury.

But I didn't see any mentions that this was a five star facility.And then also the concern is or the factor is the effectiveness of less severe sanctions.And I would find that the records that have been brought in and not on holidays.So if there's a question of whether or not there was a quote -unquote skeleton crew that was on for those at least the first two days of this time that Ms. Clancy was there, that's reflected in the records.Were offered and also when they were offered.So if there's a question of less programs being offered on a holiday than during the week, those are contained in the records.

And so motion to call this witness, but I am going to allow the defendant, if the defendant wishes, to submit those McLean's records specifically regarding the staffing and the programs that are available, not just on that weekend, but for the week.And I think there's records in there for the week before.So there could be a comparison between what was available from Ms. Clancy during the week and what was available to her on a holiday weekend.So that's going to be my finding.I'll issue a written ruling on this, but I just kind of wanted a couple of days.I just kind of wanted to thank her for that.

So with that, we'll be in recess till 2 .15.We'll come back andProsecutor also says to Patrick Clancy, well, are you aware that there is actually one -on -one therapy offered on the unit every day?This is what really pissed me off.There is absolutely no one -on -one therapy offered on that unit.What this prosecutor is referring to is what we literally call check -ins, and you know who does that?

does those check -ins, it is unlicensed individuals.This is a job where you only have to have a high school degree to get it.And I can say this because I did that job for five years.I was the clinician who was performing one -on -one therapy in her mind.No, I was doing check -ins.I did that job.

So I promise you, this was not one -on -one therapy.break this after hours of listening to forensic psychologist Dr. Zeisel.So while those jurors are out of the courtroom, the defense is bringing in a unique witness.You just work at McLean Hospital where Lindsay Clancy checked herself in for a week in the week to express how she felt about the conditions at the hospital.Let's go in and listen to this preview.Remember, the jurors are not in the courtroom.

We shall make true answers to such questions that should beTell us your name, spell your last name for the record, please.Emily Thorndyke, T -H -O -R -K, but I summer on Cape Cod.I'm spoiled like that, so I'm in Chatham.So where do you live now?Brooklyn.

But where are you living?In Chatham.Chatham.Yes.And what do you do for work?I own my own therapy practice right now, so I'm practicing as a business owner.

Wise Mind.Wise Mind?Yeah.Okay.And where is that located?It's a virtual practice, so yeah.

And how long have you been doing that?So I had my own private practice for, I opened that January 2023, and then this past May I expanded, I hired somebody, so technically it's high school, and I went to Hartwick College, and then I went to Boston College School of Social Work.And what degrees do you have?So I have my BA in sociology, I have my master's in social work, and then I have two social work licenses, I guess.You have to get one before the other, so I only go by a licensed independent clinical social worker.But you have to get your, it's very confusing, you have to get two licenses essentially.

You have those licenses?Yes.Within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts?Yes.Now, your employment, can you tell us what your employment history was since I guess you got your master's at BC or something?Since I got my master's at BC, I did my final year internship at McLean Hospital at their trauma program, and then once I graduated, got my MSW, my master's of social work, and then my social work license, I was offered a per diem position at that program, and I did that position I think it was two to three months, and then I was rehired.

I went back to the short -term unit at McLean, which I had previously worked at.So when you say the short -term unit, is that also referred to as the STU?Yes, we call it the STU.It's just short -term unit.It's also referred to as AB from what I watched before I was sequestered, but other than that, I don't know the case at all.And when you say what you watched before you were sequestered, what does that mean?

What did you watch?I think it was not this past Thursday, but the one before that.I'm not going to recall the date off the top of my head, but that's when...So what were you watching?I had just been watching like the day -to -day like the live stream and just yeah.Why is that?

I'm interested in the case.I honestly got into sort of watching trials from the Karen Reid trial and then I wanted to watch this case and obviously well I worked at McLean so I was curious to watch it.And when did you work at McLean?I started there in 2014 and then I left there at the in December 2021.What was the nature of your work?What did you do?

they expanded the unit.It's a little confusing, but in 2016, I believe it was, it became two separate units operating the same way.So there's short -term unit north and then there's short -term unit south, and now south has 22 beds and north has 23.So that's why you'll see like, you know, AB1S or, you know, so they're the same unit, but there's a separateand a north side.that makes sense.

When you were working in that particular unit?Yes, I worked on both north and south for a significant amount of time.And for all those years that you worked there, did you work days, nights, weekends, holidays?So days and evenings.I preferred the evening shift, but you're supposed to do both, day and evening.I didn't do night.

Sometimes you get mandated and you have to work an evening and a night shift, which is always pretty brutal, but I was day and evening.Now how about the staffing at STU, your experience?So there's always during the, I can sort of start with the week, I guess, for both, for the day shift and then in the evening it's four mental health specialists and three nurses.And then there's one, one and a half, it's hard to explain.There's at night there's three mental health specialists and then there's one nurse on North and one nurse on South and then there's a nurse that goes in between at night to help both sides.And how many beds are in the North and the South?

North is 23, South is 22.And which one was Lindsay in?South.Do I require certain staffing levels within that particular unit, the STU of McLean?Yes, like the Department of Mental Health regulations there.Can you tell the judge what your understanding of the regulations from the DMH would be on staffing?

Yeah, so the Department of Mental Health has to oversee all of the mental health facilities in Massachusetts, and they have specific requirements for safety regulation, for staffing ratios, how the unit has to be set up.For example, there was a renovation while I was there.charts, they will look at the unit, so they oversee everything.And do they mandate how many doctors or nurses or safety people would be on a particular unit?Yeah, they definitely have those requirements.And what's your understanding of those requirements?

I believe, I don't want to say, I'm not sure exactly.I know McLean follows those regulations, but I guess there's potential that McLean might go higher than the ratio.I'm not sure.So you have to at minimum have a certain amount of staff, but I'm not exactly sure.So are you aware in this case that McLean forwarded to the district attorney's office and the court certain discovery.Yes.

Any chance to read that?I did.All right.Is it your understanding that the requirements of the DMH and minimum staffing on well let's say on weekends and holidays for example does that change year to year or is that pretty static?It's well I guess one caveat when it changed from a 28 bed unit to 22 and 23 there was, you know, different numbers because with 28 patients you have to have those two units.The staffing has not changed from when I started there and from that document that I reviewed.

Now, you indicated that you, because of your interest, were watching the proceedings on this case.Yes.On what, YouTube or something?Yeah.Or TV?Yeah.

And you had the occasion to hear the cross -examination of Patrick Clancy by the district attorney, is that right?Yes.You mean the direct.I'm sorry?The direct of Patrick Clancy.Sorry, you're right.

It's been a long week.Okay, direct examination.And the focus was on the fact that when Lindsay went into the hospital, it was on New Year's Eve.Is that correct?Right.And that she was there for that holiday weekend.

And I think the fall examination of the district attorney asking about McLean being number one hospital in the country, McLean having all of these services available to the inmates that are in there, treating them, offering all these fantastic programs on the holiday weekends and the holidays, as opposed to what Patrick had testified to.Will you re -ask that question?I think I understand.Okay, when you were watching on the television, you saw, or the computer, you saw the questioning of the district attorney of Patrick Clancy.You heard Patrick Clancy make reference to the fact that his wife admitted herself into the STU on a holiday weekend, New Year's.Was there all that weekend, into a holiday.

Whether he was aware that it was the best hospital in the country, that there were many doctors and that, right?Yes, that's what I took from it.Now, in your 98, however many years of experience that you've had, is that what your understanding was in that unit?Uh, no, that's, yeah, no.That's not what I was understanding, no.As you can imagine, the prosecution is objecting to Ms. Thorndyke coming and testifying in front of the jury.

You heard her say she's a trial watcher and she started around the time of the case....in front of the judge to make a decision on whether this former employee can testify in front of the jury.question happening inside of a Massachusetts courtroom where Emily Thorndike, a former employee at the McLean Hospital, is testifying to the judge.No jurors around.It's called a voir dire of the witness, so the judge can understand exactly what she would testify to.But he's no doubt listening to whether or not what she is saying is relevant to the case.

Let's go back in.It's not what I was understanding, no.day after day working in the STU for all of those years.Right.But you also were a supervisor of the STU.I actually wasn't.

I became a social worker there.So I guess you could.One way to look at it is that, you know, the social worker and the psychiatrist and the health specialist, I don't like to create a hierarchy, but they are operating underneath you.So in a way, I'm supervising, but I'm not a I was never a direct supervisor.Now, you came out with a TikTok.I did.

when you did that TikTok?meetings, and the doctor who's there on the weekend and holidays is seeing 23 patients.So I felt it was misleading to indicate that there's sort of an in -depth doctor session when it's very brief.Yes, there's clay on the unit.It's called Model Magic.It's a non -toxic kid.

I mean, it's advertised for kids, but it's on the unit.In the nursing station, it's out on the unit, there is a lot of coloring.There's a specific group that I saw in the documents I reviewed called Music and Mandalas.Mandalas are basically adult coloring books.The designs are kind of abstract.You could compare it to looking through a kaleidoscope or something, and you color them in.

And Music and Mandalas is a group where you playmusic.The proceedings that you became emotional over is that Lindsay went in on New Year's Eve with some fairly serious symptomology, is that correct?Yes.And Patrick indicated that they were quite frankly, pretty bluntly, were upset about what you felt was a misleading of this witness.And Patrick had made reference to the fact that she was doing coloring and she was in the groups that were sitting there dealing with the clay and that basically they felt that it was not bluntly any help.

We are approaching the top of the hour.I've got to get some reaction from our guests from Oakland criminal defense attorney Joanna Nieves is with us and in Washington DC litigation and law enforcement expert Sonny Slaughter.Joanna, when you're listening to this testimony, how much of it do you think is going to be relevant for the jury?So I see what the defense is trying to do here with this witness.You know, the prosecution held McLean out to be this premier psychiatric institution that Lindsay was receiving, you know, individualized attention.And this person has, you know, a stark contrast in her experience while she worked there.

My biggest issue is whether or not any of this is actually going to get in front of the jury through this person.She left McLean in 2021.I'm not sure of the reasons for why she left.But besides that, does she really have personal knowledge of what was going on while Lindsay was there.And I think that that's going to be a big gap to fill.There might be better qualified people who were present while Lindsay was being treated who could testify about those particular staffings.

and treatment needs better than this particular witness.Sunny Slaughter, what's your thought on Emily Thorndike and the way that she came into the case?I think that is pretty questionable as well.Well, ironically, I was actually watching Emily and her TikToks.I came across her because I've been studying, you know, the rhetoric around this case and what people are saying, what other experts that are not on Court TV are saying and how people feel.So I watched her TikTok and I said, I don't think she has, for this particular case, I don't think she can be the expert witness to talk about what happened.

when Lindsey was there because of the time gap and because she just doesn't have the direct knowledge of what Lindsey's treatment and what the treatment was of others there.I think there is someone else at the facility that could probably do this, that could say they saw Lindsey.I think they can also, just like everyone else, I don't think this is courtroom ready.Joanna, let's talk about that surprise witness element of this and perhaps even someone who wants to insert themselves into the case.Do you have any qualms about that becoming?not to say that her credibility comes into question.

She probably is very well versed on what was happening while she was there.Just this is not necessarily the best use of a witness.Joanna and Sonny, thank you so much for your analysis this hour.We will all see whether or not this witness is going to be allowed in when we come back.from this break, we will take you back to Massachusetts for more of the Lindsay Clancy murder trial.Welcome back to Court TV Live.

I'm Julia Janee.Thank you for being with us on this Wednesday afternoon as we are in the state of Wisconsin, rather Massachusetts.And the big question in this trial is how involved Lindsay Clancy has been in her own defense.Video today of her activity in the courtroom and the testimony of the defense's star.He was being questioned on cross by the prosecutor about her actions.since being taken into custody and being hospitalized.

Let's listen back to that testimony and watch her reaction.I have no reason to doubt that that's not an accurate reflection of what took place that day.And what's SIB?Self -Injurious Behavior.Prosecutors say that Dr. Zeisel is the one who instructed her.Earlier, Zeisel was cross -examined on Clancy's claim that she heard voices at the time that she killed her children.

How many times has she told you since the incident that she's heard a voice currently?She has not heard voices since the event took place in 2023.Now, Dr. Zeisel was the last witness that these jurors heard before they took their lunch break.During the lunch break, the defense called to the stand outside of the juror's presence a witness who's being voir dire.The judge is listening to determine if she is going to be able to testify.This is Emily Thorndyke.

She's a therapist who used to work at the McLean Hospital.She took to TikTok to express how she did not agree with the prosecution's claim about that hospital.Let's go back in for more of her direct.That's the team, and with providers, aren't going to happen over the weekend either.Now, one of the things that occurred, just for the background, is that your TikTok was observed by me, and I, Jones, hunt you down, kind of, and ended up in front of your house.No, but you're right.

Yeah, so.He wasn't outside of my house, but the rest of that was true.So he was able to locate you?He was, yes.He was able to talk to you?He was, yes.

Get your contact information?Yes.Provide that to me?Yep.And as a result of that, I reached out to you and then you indicated that...you initially somewhat reluctant, but then ultimately agreed to get involved acting to your testimony.

And I believe they're going to argue that the change.from that one year period.When did you leave working there?I want to say my last date was like December 18th.Since working there, you don't get a lot of holidays off.So out of all my time there, I said I'm going to leave right before the holidays and be able to enjoy that.

So I believe it was...Lindsey in there?December 31st, right?She came in on New Year's Eve.What would that be?2022, right?

Yeah.That is significant in the staffing, in the nurse to patient ratio, in the safety issues, the crayons, the coloring and all of that.Is there any change from that one year that you left to the time that she was in there?From the records I reviewed as well, those are exactly the same staffing ratios and all of the groups are the same.So there's no change whatsoever?Not from what I can tell from what I reviewed.

Thank you.Kamal.Good afternoon.Hello.So you are currently a social worker who does their own, a licensed independent clinical social worker, right?Yes.

That's the licensor when you're saying that's really what you kind of go by.Yes, I'm a social worker by trade.You don't have a brick and mortar where clients come and engage in therapy with you, right?No, rent is expensive.So right now I'm all virtual.And you indicated that in your time at McLean Hospital that you first started as a per diem and that was as a mental health specialist, right?

I didn't start per diem there.I started at a 32 -hour position at a per diem.There's another position I held at McLean, which is called a community residence counselor.That was a per diem position.And then the social work position I took after graduating and before I went back to McLean, sorry, the short -term unit, that was a per diem position.The per diem role that you had, how long did you do that role?

On which unit?Well, you just said when I asked you about working per diem, you said you were the community resident counselor.How long did you do that?Yes, I mentioned two per diem positions, so I just wanted to be clear.I believe it was around a year.It was on the side while I was working on the short -term unit.

That was the main unit I worked on, but since I was 32 hours, I was interested in that particular McLean program, so I picked up a shift every so often, but I was primarily on the short -term unit.As what, though?As a mental health specialist?As a mental health specialist, yep.And so you said once you got your master's, that was in September of 2019?Yes.

And you said you had a chance to review the records that were sent over by McLean, right?Right.Now, when you were a social worker from September of 2019 to December of 2021, what was your schedule?So I would come in around nine, you could view it as sort of normal business hours.My clinical five, so that was kind of a little bit of my start time, but generally probably like nine to five, you could say.And was that Monday through Friday?

Yes, I did cover weekends on occasion.Social workers, you know, you're not required to, but it's kind of highly encouraged.So, you know, every once in a while I would covera weekend as a social worker.And you're aware that the records that came from McLean Hospital indicate that during the time period of January 1st to January 15th of 2023, that the social worker role was a day position that was Monday through Friday.Yeah.

And that on January 1st, which was a Sunday, there was no social worker there.Yeah, I saw that.And on January 2nd, which would have been the observed holiday for New Year's, there was no social worker there.That's what I saw.Okay.While you would pick up shifts, the majority of your schedule was 9 to 5 Monday through Friday.

Yeah.From 2019 to 2020.Now, you provided Attorney Reddington with some kind of like typed up notes.Do you recall that?Yes.Where you outlined kind of what your experience was on the unit and how inpatients were how inpatient experiences went, like the schedule and that kind of thing.

And you noted that as far as the treatment team, which you referred to yourself as a social worker, worked with a psychiatrist, right?And you identified that in your experience there was three teams, red, green, or blue.But you are also aware that the records show that every day during the week that the treatment team of a social worker and a psychiatrist, there was four social workers and four psychiatrists that were on shift.So where's the fourth?So the numbers aren't equal.So he would have a little bit less of a caseload.

The lead social worker on the unit.So for example, I had eight patients on my caseload, but one of my social work colleagues would have six.So it's not an even distribution of the three.Some of the doctors and some of the social workers just carried a different number of caseload.But your testimony today, after having now reviewed the records,is that it's always been for social workers, for doctors.

Yeah, I didn't say that there wasn't before.That's why you're here, because we don't know.Yeah, I just thought I answered your question, but yes.You came aware of this case by watching the trial, right?Yes.And so, would you say that you...

Up until that point.What point?What day?I'm not remembering the date exactly, not last Thursday, but the Thursday before.What was the last content of testimony that you remember watching?I believe it was maybe Patrick's friends or, you know, I was aware that there were doctors testifying, you know, Mr. Reddington made sure I was not watching anymore and that there were, you know.

And you were asked by Attorney Reddington here about observing that testimony or the direct examination of Patrick, and I think he mentioned where it was referred to that McLean was the best hospital in the country.Do you recall that being the question that was asked of Patrick Clancy?I don't recall.And in fact, the Commonwealth didn't ask about his opinions of the status of the hospital, but did just verify with reference to records whether or not he knew his wife participated in particular things that were contained within the records.Did you see that in the testimony?Yes.

And so you're aware that the testimony actually was that It's on records you've never seen, right?Correct.And as far as the contact with the staff and the doctors, meaning nurses or social workers or whatnot, you haven't reviewed any of those records, right?I have not.And so you don't know the extent, you don't know the extent of what the interaction waswith.

General guidelines that you have to follow.I can't tell you the content within them, but for example, mental health specialists, you are not supposed to meet with a patient longer than 20 minutes because you have other things to do.So I can't speak specifically to what happened in those conversations, but I know the general gist of how everybody's role works.But you, when you say everybody's role, did you ever perform the role of a nurse?No, but I work directly with them.I'm operating on the job description.

It says specifically you're under the direction of the nurse, so I worked directly with nurses.Do you go through the same training as a nurse?No.As far as what your knowledge is of mental health specialists, fair to say the last time you were employed as a mental health specialist there and did that work yourself was in May of 2019.Yep.And then you transitioned to being a social worker where you worked closely with a psychiatrist and primarily Monday through Friday.

Yes, psychiatrist, the nurses and the mental health specialist.You all really work together and you can only attest to.what you would put in a note, right, as far as your contact with the patient as a social worker?No, you have access to all of the patients on the unit, so I'm able, and it's not a HIPAA violation to do that because we all work together.Sometimes I cover other social workers' patients, so I do have access.You have access to all of the records in everybody's, every patient's file, so you can read everybody's notes.

Okay, we have to hit a break, but when we come back, the judge is going to decide on whether or not this witness is going to be able to testify in front of the jury as the defense wants.Don't go anywhere.As far as schedule might change, but the staffing schedule doesn't change.So the availability and the mental health worker that sees the patient, the social worker that checks in, and the psychiatrist and nurse, the team all stays the same even on a weekend or a holiday.about what things were like over the holidays when the defendant Lindsey Clancy on the stand is a therapist who is testifying after watching some of the trial and disagreeing with what happened with Lindsey Clancy what may have happened she did supposed testimony what she would say if she were talking in front of the jury and then That's my question, and that probably was a bad question, but my question is to you.When you are the social worker for a patient on the treatment team that you've described, you enter the information into the note for the social worker that becomes part of the record.

Correct.And those are your words, your observations, your comments.Correct.You don't write them for other people, do you?No, but we have to follow a certain note, which is a fairly lengthy assessment, but that's a social work.I learned that in grad school, so I don't know how everybody writes their notes, but we have to follow a pretty strict format to write our notes.

And is it your testimony that McLean requires only that each social worker spends a particular period of time maximum amount of time with each patient to do that?Yeah, I mean I have eight patients on my caseload so I have to see eight patients every day and so you are limited with how much time you can spend with them because there's several other tasks I have to do so you really can't spend a significant amount of time with your patients.That wasn't my question.My question was does McLean tell you that you can only spend 5, 10, or 15 minutes with a patient?Yes, it's directly told from my the people above me.It's something that's communicated in a way where you could sort of get in if you're not doing that.

So yes, it comes directly from McLean.And do you have any information, having left there in 2021, that the same people supervising the social workers were giving those same instructions?I mean, no, I don't know that.Do you know anything about how many people were actually occupying beds between January 1st and January 5th of 2023?No, it obviously has a max of, but yeah, so I don't know how many patients were there, but you can have up to 22 there, so yeah.And you've also indicated in your notes to Attorney Reddington that sometimes the people that are there for a particular period of time have the ability to go out on passes for reasons

Correct, yes.Does that, in your experience, does that tend to happen around holidays?Yes.And so you don't know between January 1st and January 5th of 2023 who might have been assigned to a bed there but out on a pass that week.How many people are actually occupying the beds would affect the ratio of staff to patient during that time period, right?If I'm understanding the question correctly, I mean...

It's the same amount of staff there, are you saying like they're meeting with patients less?Right, it's the same amount of staff, regardless, because it's by shift, right?Right.So if the unit has 22 beds in it, but say five people are off on a pass for that weekend, then the same staff that are there for the entire weekend have five less patients.No, no, no, you're still assigned, every patient has to be assigned to a mental health specialist and a nurse.And so when you go on a pass, there's a limit.

And day and evening shift, the limit of the pass is eight hours.So no matter what, you have to check in with your staff person before you leave for your pass, and you have to check in with your assigned staff when you come back.So there's no patient who's not assigned to somebody, it's just they might not be on the unit the whole time when you're on your shift.Okay, so if they're not, they might not.lose a patient on their load, for instance, but that person isn't there that they have to check in with every so often, or they have to check in with about groups.You only check in once per shift anyway, so if they're going, you check in with them before, and when they come back, you check in with them after.

But yes, you're not checking in with them when they're off the unit.And you don't know what the numbers were?No, I don't.During that time period.I don't have any other questions.Thank you.

All right.And on the motion, you may step down.Thank you very much.Thank you.All right.Both sides have been able to examine this witness.

The voir dire is over and the motions are being made to the judge about whether or not this witness can actually testify.We know the defense very much wants this to come out in front of the jury and the prosecution is objecting.Let's go in for Judge Sullivan's decision on everything.All right.All right, well, I'm looking at this really as a goes into a whole different analysis and also analysis under rule.And as that rule.

Proposed rule says evidence may be excluded if its probative value is substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice, confusion of the issues, or misleading the jury or by considerations of, well, that part doesn't apply.First off, I find this witness credible, and so under cases such as Taylor v. Illinois, Commonwealth v. Dunning, Commonwealth v. Steinmeier, a couple other cases, I have to look at this issue for at least a week or so, so I'm not considering that evidence of bad faith.There's no bad faith I see from either side.There's the prejudice to the other party.I think there's just limited prejudice, if any, to the Commonwealth.However, though, The final two are the issues that I think are more relevant in this.

One is the materiality of the testimony in this.And I find that there's limited materiality, that's hard to say.So there's at least a gap between when she worked there and when the relevant time period is here.There's also, I imagine, different personnel.added value to that testimony.I also, I don't remember any five -star type inferences.

In fact, so I'm not going to, that this was a five -star facility.And then also, the concern is or the factor is the effectiveness of less severe sanctions.And I would find that the records that have been brought in pursuant to the subpoena in the last couple of days from McLean's talks about the staffing levels, on holidays and not on holidays.So if there's a question of whether or not there was a quote -unquote skeleton crew that was on for those at least the first two days of this time that Ms. Clancy was there, that's reflected in the records.They're also in the records here is a list of whatever programs were offered and also when they were offered.So if there's a question of less programs being offered on a holiday, then during the week, those are contained in the records.

And so I'm going to deny the defendant's motion to call this witness, but I am going to allow the defendant, if the defendant wishes, to submit those McLean's records specifically regarding the staffing and the programs that are available.His records are in there for the week before.So there could be a comparison between what was available to Ms. Clancy during the week and what was available to her on a holiday weekend.So that's going to be my finding.I'll issue a written ruling on this, but I just kind of wanted to give the parties at least some idea, as well as the witness who's been here I know a couple of days.I just kind of wanted to thank her for that.

So with that, we'll be in recess till 2 .15.We'll come back and resume the trial.OK.Thank you.All rise.I know it's a technicality.

Don't weigh objections.Duly noted.Thank you.The judge is denying Emily Thorndike from testifying in front of the jury but allowing the records in, expanded records of McLean Hospital to go to the jury.Let's bring in our next expert, Sonny Slaughter.Sonny, what do you think about the judge's decision?

Is this the right move here?with someone that hasn't been there for a very long time.And then people find out she saw the case on TikTok and that's how she was pulled in.I do appreciate that the judge said that he found her credible.It's just that she is not necessary for this particular case at the right time.And we don't want any problems at the end that could potentially come back.

if there is a conviction here?Um, benefited the defense to the extent that they would have wanted.I mean, what she could offer if she were to testify is...Counsel, I would ask if you could first...Alright, sure.

Everyone, thank you for your patience.And I'm going to ask you for some more patience.All right.Due to some an unforeseen circumstance, we're going to excuse you until tomorrow morning.All right.This is not something we saw coming, but you're not to speculate about what it is.

You're not to hold it against either side.It's just something that we have to deal with, all right?And so I'm going to excuse you until tomorrow morning.I'm going to remind you, as I have every night.of similar cases.And with that, we'll bring you back here.

We're still well within the timeline that I gave you regarding this case.I'll excuse you until tomorrow with my thanks for your patience, and I'll see you tomorrow morning.All right, thank you.All rise, please.Be seated.Anything we need to address before tomorrow morning?

No, Your Honor.All right, so we'll be in recess till tomorrow morning at 9 o 'clock.Thank you, everyone.