MAHFUD SENTIL PURBAYA SOAL MAFIA PAJAK & BEA CUKAI

I think Mr. Purbaya's steps are good. This person then shuddered with full confidence, and for the first time, he was convinced. I will talk about the mode of corruption.

This is a message for the new Minister of Finance, right?

So it's like this. corruption. This is a message for the Minister of Finance. Yes, that's right. So, this is the pattern. I got information from the people in the country. There is a difference of 3.5 tons of gold. Not 3.5 grams, not 3.5 kilos,

not 3.5 stars, but 3.5 tons of gold. Only in one case.

Sir, this is a case that has never been revealed to the public, right?

This is the first time, right?

Not yet. But at that time, I continued to stop from the minister. I backed down. But this has been determined by the judge I made, to be dismissed. Is this going to be delayed or not? If not, this must be executed. Is this a continuation of the previous action? If not, we must investigate.

We have the data. 189 trillion. The one who will press him, like the way he pressed me before, are also big people. Some are very open,

some are trying to swallow, some are threatening, I threatened them back. Maybe this will be difficult, because Mr. Purbaya will face, well, this is a friend, there are also some who became ministers, who have that case.

Oh yeah?

Cabinet, the cabinet, the so-called minister. I was angry, this must be released, this has been dismissed from the court. Not corruption, it's not corruption, I said, no, this has to be released, the court has already decided. It's not corruption. I said, it's not corruption, but he has a debt of debt. He told his people to come here. He met me.

What happened? He wanted to call Jakarta. I called.

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Thank you for watching. where I will discuss various issues openly and without any hidden agenda.

Bismillah.

I continue to observe various developments that have occurred regarding political, legal, and government issues, which will then become public documents. There are also many requests that come to me to discuss a topic, from meetings with journalists, from the academic community, civil society, and also those who join my social media accounts. From so many events, we will discuss some issues that I think are important,

so that we can see it more clearly and we can think together to find a solution. Let's start. Please, what do you want to ask now? Okay, Mahfud. I'll start with President Prabowo's activities earlier this week, Pak. Yesterday, on Monday, Mr. Prabowo was at the Blitung Bank to observe the handover of state-stolen goods from illegal mining activities. There were six smelterter that were confiscated from the corruption case of Timah. The president said that the loss was up to 300 trillion rupiah.

Mr. Mahfud, what do you think about that incident? Is this what is called as fulfilling the president's promise that he will eradicate corruption and restore the state's corruption. Yes, that's good. It means that the President will immediately start executing Satu Fornis by inviting the law enforcement agencies who can execute the matter in a grand manner.

That's good. And the acquisition of land and assets, it is said to be worth 300 trillion. Yes, there was a fund for the state's total loss. The state's total loss was 300 trillion, according to the court's fund. Then the value was sentenced from 6 years to 20 years, on the president's order, because the president deserved to be the one to order it. So, this involves the court of corruption in Timah,

which was conducted by Harvey Moise and his friends, of course there are more above and other suspects, Then, the court decided that the country was affected by a loss of Rp300 trillion, with, this is important, with the component of the loss, where is it from? First, the loss of equipment rental of Rp2.2 trillion. From the existing components, right? Yes. Then, the second, the loss of payment of illegal seed payment.

The country is at a loss because it is not included in the country. That's 26.6 trillion. Then, what becomes controversial is environmental damage loss which is calculated by experts who have been used many times in the court, calculated by Professor Bambang Hero and Professor Basuki Wasis, a great teacher at the IPB,

the environmental damage is estimated at Rp271 trillion. People can debate that, but this damage is based on scientific calculations. If the mining control is not done illegally, the country will be safe. So, if we calculate the environmental damage now, the total damage will reach 271 trillion.

In addition to the Ministry of Education, there are also many experts based on the education that can be responsible, it can count the losses as was done by two professors from IPB. For example, in UGM, there is a name, Rimawan Pradip Tio. He has counted the losses of the Palma Group case. It was 71 trillion in lost due to environmental damage. And the court accepted it.

That means it includes state economic losses, right? Yes, state economic losses. So, not just in the eyes of the state? State financial losses, not just in the eyes of the state, but also state economic losses. Not just in the state's housing, but also state economic losses. Because it's in the law.

What is the loss of the state's economy? Including environmental damage that can be calculated. Well, back then, Pak Rimawan could calculate 79 trillion, which was accepted by the court as much as 71 trillion. So at that time, the fine was indeed mentioned as being as high as Rp41 trillion,

after all the reductions, but the higher courts changed it again. It's okay, but there is a way to calculate it. What was done by Mr. Prabowo was the loss value as high as Rp300 trillion based on the court decision.

It's already increased, right?

Maybe it's still under process, but it's okay. Because the one that was just taken yesterday was 6 trillion, right?

Yes, that's why my next question is, the country's loss is 300 trillion,

but the one that was handed over yesterday was 6 units of smelter and a few items. The total is around 6 trillion. It's okay. It means, sir, that only 2% of the total 300 trillion country's losses. Yes, it means the president is increasing the amount so that the next one will be taken again.

Okay, not in small amounts and in percentage, but the president is starting to increase it.

The president is starting to decrease it himself. As a private investor. Residents are starting to go down by themselves. Don't play around. This is NT 300 trillion. Now I take it first. The next must be taken by the Ministry of Finance as a continuation of the execution, especially if it has been approved.

If so, Pak Fud, what has made our country's difficulty to restore the state's integrity from the corruption case? Well, first of all, there are some backers on the ground. Secondly, of course, the legal procedure must be careful. There are still Banding, there are the Casasy and so on. It's been a long time, right? It's not easy. The bad thing is, first, there are some back-and-forths.

When we go to a place that is clearly owned by the state, sometimes it is blocked. I got information that there are hundreds of hectares of farmland owned by the state. When it is visited by the State Housing Authority, the person who is facing it is a two-star official.

So, it can't do it. Then, the 525 press conference came. They have started to back off. Those who backed off. And now, Mr. Prabowo is giving an example. The 525 press conference on forestry development.

The 525 press conference is a press conference on forestry department. The 525 is a press about the forestry department where the forests that are cut off by companies and the people illegally are taken back by the state. When the press is down, there are a lot of them. Now, if the information does not develop again,

there are 1,200, million hectares that are managed or controlled in an open way. It has been taken over by the PHK's Satgas. There are still many more in Indonesia.

PKH Satgas. PHK. PKN.

Yes, the PKN. That's good. So, the President's steps to eradicate corruption have started on the ground, not just in Pidato. Now it's starting to take shape. Not only in Pidato, it's already taking shape. So, it's important, Pak. It means that Mr. Mahfud saw the presence of President Prabowo Kebangka Belitung yesterday and was present there, even though only 2% of the total number of the victims.

But the important message is that I'm starting to face this backing,

which has been hindering me.

It's like this, right? So, the DPR said, hey, you generals, I will face you. Don't back out. That was the DPR's policy. So, he stepped down to prove that he will face them. But, I'm sorry,

I have to criticize a number of people that what happened in several places, the government's actions, the law enforcement, including the one in Bangka the judiciary, including those in the Budget, are more focused on taking advantage,

because in reality, it could be a replacement of the players. Who used to be close to the government, this time is the one who is benefited. That's the criticism of some of you. There is such a issue. Since the Harvey Moise case was arrested,

then this analysis came out that only the new political rulers wanted to take advantage. Because in the past, the mafia managed A, now it's B who is in charge. That's the issue. In my opinion, it's okay.

Even if it's true, it's okay. Why? The rule that has been too long will cause a big problem, and it means we let people do it. Yes, let it be replaced by new players, why? If the new players follow the rules, it's okay. Oh, with the rules?

Yes, with the rules. Not just a new player, just changing the rules and getting more benefits. I agree. Democracy always prevents player replacement. Right? The government always wants to replace players. If the players are already bad, they can be replaced. Just replace them with new players.

Even if it's a mafia, the government has to control the rules. I think it's okay to replace the players. Why? Why do we have to be controlled by a mafia group? It's okay. I think it's good. Just be under control. Just be under control. There will be a few new comments that can implement the rules.

Pak Mahfud, I'll continue. It was about the president's activities. But it's also related to the government. This month is about the time when the Minister of Finance took over Pak Mahfud's position. He was appointed on the 8th, and now it's the 7th and 8th.

So, exactly one month. And I saw Pak Mahfud posted on his ex-account about the decision or maybe action or style of the new finance minister, Purbaya Yudhisadeva. Pak Mahfud appreciated, praised, something like that. My question is, how special is this new finance minister?

So that Mr. Mahfud even posted on Instagram, praising him, appreciating him. Personally, I don't know him. Have you ever met him? Maybe I met him when I was close to Mr. Aluhut's office. We often had many staffs at that time. But I don't remember any memory of meeting him.

But seeing his steps when he was appointed and so on, I think it's good too to make a new color towards our financial arrangement. Because this person then shuddered with full confidence our financial system. Because people will be full of confidence,

and the public will be convinced. Even though, of course, the economists can have different opinions. Some say it's dangerous, some say it's not. You have a lot of criticism, too. Yes, I understand the criticism. But that's just a matter of perspective. But the fact that he was able to break the ice of financial regulation, which for 15 years

was believed to be the work of Mrs. Sri Mulyane, and the criticism was the same, not changing, and the steps were not changing, this gave a new color. First, he was brave, determined, and creative.

He is creative. There are many things that I think are good. But remember, this is good until now. Next, we will evaluate the place.

Exactly. This is only a month, Pak.

Yes, we hope he will stay like this. But Pak, breaking the freeze and becoming something that offers something new is important in a government like now? Important. Because there is no change. If you need anything, you pay. If you need anything, you pay. If this is not, for example, we say, we just the economic growth with funding. You can go up yourself. You don't have to look for me. That's good, right? For a civilian like me, who is not an economist.

Oh yeah, that's good too. Then, threaten to, for example, to the BUMN. Yes, I even, because you took the tweet, I cut it. We even made, what is it, statements, whatever, is, Mr. Minister,

and I want to show it to Mr. Mahfud. And I ask for Mr. Mahfud's comment later. This is, sir, the statement of the Minister of Finance which became a public letter. Which then, maybe that was caught by Mr. Mahfud. I read it, sir, yes.

The economy is slowing down. It is not yet time to add tax cuts. in 2026, said Minister of Finance. It will chase 60 trillion from tax hikers. There are 200 tax hikers being chased by the Tax Administration of the Ministry of Finance. Then next, he instructed the Tax Administration to catch illegal importers so that the elimination of illegal import products can go straight to the root. It will cut the MBG funds if the funds are not absorbed by the end of this month. Even this is a call with the Chairman of the DEN, Pak Luhut Bin Sarapanjaitan,

which reminded him not to do that. Then, the minister threatened to withdraw the budget from the PMD and will be transferred to the central government if the spending is slow or tight in the PMD. Then, he will come to the Ministry of Infrastructure to take control of the budget until the end of the year, without spending. Then he also asked a number of banks, so far BNI and Bank Mandiri, a few days ago,

to monitor the activities and current reactions. Which one do you think, Mr. Mahfud, that you appreciate so much that you say it's good? All of them. It represents one, the resistance to corruption. Okay, resistance to corruption. Yes, that he will eradicate corruption. Corruption? Yes, that he will eradicate corruption. Then, there is also a threat to the officials who are playing around.

Then, in order for the money not to be inundated, it must be spent because the economy is moving. Therefore, if it is not spent until the end of the year, he said, I will take it. Although Pak Luhut said, don't take it.

Well, it's normal, Pak Luhut, Pak Luhut, the head of the den, said, don't take it. Well, it's normal for Pak Luhut to debate. It's normal. I also used to debate with him.

So, he's the one who said, Pak Luhut.

Yes, he's Pak Luhut's man. So, Pak Luhut is open to debate. And we used to meet Pak Luhut often. Don't be like that, sir. If you are being rationalized, we often meet Pak Luhut, and he will say, Oh yes, if Pak Mahmud is going home, then so be it. It means he wants to listen.

Maybe later, Pak Luhut will say, Well, if the Minister of Finance wants it that way, then go ahead. That's usually the case. If Pak Luhut is not dead, I often have the experience,

it's okay to be opposed by Pak Luhut. It's okay. Just explain it. About his style, Pak. I want to ask more to Pak Mahfud. Because Pak Mahfud is also a shopkeeper or what is it called, a person who is in the government and also straightforward. It's plain like this, roughly. No one thinks about it, it's immediately conveyed.

For example, I don't know how much this makes the government comfortable when for example, they say, which bank said that? Let me delete it. Then in front of the DPR, they criticized Pertamina. They said, Pertamina's direction is there. Until now, we don't make a loss because they promised to make a loss, but where is the proof? Then they said that Danantara also gave Danantara because the protest of Danantara was not directly conveyed to him, but to the DPR. Well, this actually creates room for disharmony. Or according to you, there is no problem?

It must be developed.

Is it important to do it that way?

It must be developed in that way. And maybe it fits with the character. You just have to be frank. It was the same when I made a fuss about the Rp. 39 trillion, and the BLB. Mr. Jokowi said, just go ahead, Mr. Mahfud. Just explain it to the people.

It will make us feel comfortable. Maybe you need to push this. Just say it. That's how you do it. You have the character to do that, in think Mr. Prabowo should push this. Just push it. That's it. Mr. Prabowo has the character to do that, in my opinion. Mr. Mambooj, you mentioned about the case of Rp3.49 trillion.

Well, this is a good opportunity, sir. When the case of Rp3.49 trillion, you became the main co-chair, then with Mrs. Sri Mulyani as the head of theBI gas. Oh, sorry, Rp3.49 trillion is the money management, sir. What do you hope? Now there is a minister, while this is not finished yet, not yet completed, right, sir? When you finish, then the team will also stop.

What does Mr. Mahfud expect from Minister Purbaya to continue the Rp3.49 trillion? I am happy, because Mr. Purbaya said that he would handle it himself. The tax and interest payments. Because there are indeed sources of corruption. There are four areas of corruption that are always mentioned by the public. One is the tax, two is the interest payments three is mining, and four is the plantation.

Two of them are now in the hands of the new Minister of Finance. And he has already stated that. Because the mafia is extraordinary. That's why I once revealed, and we will reveal it now, hopefully it will be included in the report to Mr. Purbaya, he revealed that there were Rp349 trillion in money laundering in the Ministry of Finance. Well, people were in a state of confusion at the time.

Even though it was based on the PPATK letter, where I became the chief of staff. The head of the National Committee on the Crime of Money Laundering was the Minister of Justice. When there was a case of a child molesting another child with a very cruel act, I asked the parent, who is the parent?

The parent turned out to be a minister of finance, a minister of Teselon 3. How come he is so rich? How come his child can flex like that? How come he is so handsome? Who is that person? I asked the LHKPN.

How many LHKPN members are there? How can they have such a child? Then, the answer from the PAPATK to me, not only the LHKPN, but also this person, has been reported since 2012, committing a financial fraud, but there has never been a follow-up.

That's Raffaelle Alun.

Yes, Raffaelle Alun. Then I said, if so, I asked for a the financial analysis reports. Since 2009 until now, in 2022-2023, it turned out that the report from the PAPK was about the financial analysis of 300 letters worth Rp349 trillion.

Okay.

There was a debate, but it was clear that the number was correct. Mrs. Sri Mulyani explained it again in the 11th Commission, that it was different from my number. I explained it in the 3rd Commission, and to the public, it was different. Then it was found in the 3rd Commission, and it was clear, that it was correct, Rp349 trillion.

It's just different in the way of counting it. I counted all of them, but only the letters to him. While I put the letters to the KPK, all of them were Rp349 trillion. So, okay. At that time, because it was clear, I agreed. How? If we just form a PANSO, so that the DPR can investigate this, so that it is deep. But at that time, the Minister of Finance and the DPR, it seems, were not formed a PANSUS.

So, you don't have to be a PANSUS.

Because it can be given away. Just give it to the Ministry of Justice to form a SADGAS. As the head of the TPPU. And I was asked to report again. I was appointed as the head of the committee of the TPPU. Although I was appointed as the head of the committee of the TPPU, it was difficult to negotiate with the Ministry of Finance when it came to recruiting people.

I asked for two people to join. One was Faiz Al-Basri, I joined the Satgas team.

Almarhum Faiz Al-Basri.

Almarhum Faiz Al-Basri. The second was Yusuf, former head of PPATK.

Oh, Muhammad Yusuf.

Yes, he was very resistant. But I said, no, he has to join. He is the expert, I said. Finally, Komroen joined. What did we find? In short, that, the number was 349, I will talk about the mode of corruption. This is a message for the new finance minister. So, here's the thing. We found one data. Importation of gold usually comes from Hong Kong or Singapore. At one point, gold was imported from Singapore.

Singapore gave HSC. HS Code? Yesized System Code. HSC, HS Code. There is a number, if the number of HS Code is this much, the payment is 5%, if it is this much, it will pay 5%. If it's this much, it will pay 3%.

And that's an international standard.

It's an international standard. One day, Singapore sent a shipment of goods from someone with a highest code of 5%. But suddenly, here in Indonesia, it was reduced by 0%. In our side.

In Singapore, it is 5% because it is half-finished product, not raw material. It is half-finished product in any form, whatever it is, it is processed in Indonesia. So, Singapore considers it 5%. When asked, why did you decrease it?

The answer was, we don't have to follow Singapore, we can calculate it ourselves.

This is the BCUK.

Yes, the BCUK is here. Then, yes, it's okay. But it's weird, if you decrease 5%, it's 0. It's weird, this is the acceptance of the country. If Singapore writes 0,

you write 5%, that's good. If you write 5%, you get 0. Why do we lose the opportunity to get it? The country loses the opportunity. That's a lie. From 5%, it goes down to 0.

When asked, why? You can not follow Singapore, you can not follow Hong Kong. We calculate it ourselves based on our calculations because there is already a standard. the we will not be blamed for it. That's the model. That's just one case. This was in the TPPU's sub-channel. Yes, it was in the TPPU's sub-channel.

The pattern for doing corruption in Bacukai, can you imagine? That was just one importation of gold. Just one person. From 300 letters.

Yes.

From the TPPU. Only one person. Out of 300 letters? Yes. Not to mention the smuggling of used clothes. The ones that were in containers. How was that? It had never happened anywhere. And this kind of pattern. I got information from the people in the country who were then deported to the headquarters of the Bihacukai region.

I reported it. This is the way, Sir. This is the proof, Sir. I used to do this.

From the Bihacukai structural office?

Yes, from the Bihacukai structural office. Now I'm in jail. This is a pattern, Sir. Hopefully, Mr. Purbaya can handle this. And by chance, Mr. Prabowo has also provided a new organization for the tax payers, so that they will not be contaminated. You have to know that this pattern is happening everywhere.

Then there is another discovery from that time, which still has to move on. There is a money laundering, worth Rp 189 trillion. This is a gold importation, right? This is also a contact, the audit of Rp 349 trillion, now 17 people have been imprisoned and there are still people in the process.

Then there is another model. The report in Beacukai and in Pajak are different. We found a figure of Rp189 trillion. In one transaction? Yes. When it comes from outside, through the exchange, the value is only this much. It's strange, right? But when it comes out of the tax, because this is still half-finished, it is delayed first, the payment, later, if it is.

But when it comes to the tax, based on the transaction results, the value is much higher. 7.9 T, while here it is written as 4.3. So, there is a difference. Yes, tons. So, there is a difference of 3.5 tons of gold. Not 3.5 grams, not 3.5 kilos, not 3.5 stars, but 3.5 tons of gold.

Only in one case. How can it be like this? It should be the same, right? If the interest is this much, the tax is this much, right? How is this different? I can't answer, I can't satisfy.

Try to do the suspect, to find the importer, I said, the person couldn't be found, sir. It hurts. But you reported, we have found the person.

It's easy to find him. That's clearly a game.

Sir, this is a case that has never been revealed to the public, right? This is the first time, right?

Not yet. But at that time, I continued to stop from the minister. I backed down. I was the press chief. I was the press chief. I backed down. But this has been established by the sadygas that I made to be sidelined. So that he had to be sued. So that the suspect must be found.

Maybe there is a director, a director of the tax office, maybe the importer, maybe someone else, must be sued. Because being sued means

there has been a criminal act. There are enough evidences. But when I left, I didn't know if this would continue. Because the investigation for this case is still in the PPNS. Dirjen Bia Cukai and Pajak.

They can do their own investigation. Whether this will continue or not. If not, this must be investigated. We have the data, 189 trillion. Well, this and that, a lot has happened. So, Mr. Fud, besides appreciating the Minister of Finance,

you also challenge the Minister of Finance to be here. Yes, I challenge him. I suggest it, if I dare.

Yes, if you dare.

Because, what will pressure him, just like he did to me, are the big shots. Some are very open, some are very aggressive, some are threatening, I threaten them back. Especially in the case of BLBI. Wait, you mean the BLBI threatened you back?

Not the case?

I will talk with that later. About Kasini, no. Kasini is just a little bit confused with the DPR. I was told that the minister is a provocateur, or whatever minister.

Oh yes, Pak. So, it's crowded.

After that, I proved that they are all crazy. And you became the center of attention of people And people, don't ask anymore. Now the process is underway, many have been sentenced. It's not round, 300 pages. There are those who are 500 billion, there are those who are 20 billion, there are those who are several trillion, in those 300 pages, don't say, why is it missing? It's not missing.

You ask to Jogja, they go to jail. Makassar goes to jail. The Suta goes to jail. The SB goes in jail. People in Makassar will be put in jail. People in Suta will be put in jail. People in Sb will be put in jail. And there are 17 others, at least, who are in the headquarters who have been put in jail.

And that's a trillion.

And that means, the case of the 3.49 trillion, you hope, you hope,

it can be more severe, I hope that Mr. Purbaya's quick and spontaneous style can help. We don't blame Mrs. Sri Mulyani. Mrs. Sri Mulyani is good. At least 10 years in the era of Mr. Jokowi, her achievements are good and she is admired as the best finance minister in the world. I admit that it is true.

But we need a new atmosphere. Don't be like that all the time. The public is also tired. Why are you so straight? Because for me, I think, Mrs. Sri Mulyani is too good.

She is a protective person. Yes, people say, Mrs. Ani has a good fiscal discipline, if she becomes the new Minister of Finance, with the expansion of the spending, so there is a difference.

Yes, it's different. I hope so. Mrs. Ani is too protective towards her children. Because in the cases that I handle, I speak directly to the mother, who is suspected to be involved, I immediately talked to the people involved.

But they didn't do anything.

Why?

I don't know. It was a protective measure. Then one day, we told them, the problem is here. In the list of the election, there is an important official here. But you don't have to come again tomorrow. You have a name here.

But the people still came. And they controlled the conversation from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Protective means there is a reason. As far as I know, Mrs. Sirimulyani didn't want her son to be punished. Her son was punished I didn't want my son to be punished. I didn't want my son to be punished.

Because, according to the confession of the people who came to me, to the officials, I was directed by Bu Siri Mulyani, from this point on, I was fired.

Okay. So, the officials of the first salon?

Yes, the first salon. The first salon, at least.

Yes, yes, yes. I guess, Mr. Alkara.

We were directed by Bu Mulyani, I guess. We have been told, don't repeat this. You have a mistake. From now on, I will be the minister, don't repeat this.

Buwane asked him.

He reported to me that we have been arrested, we have changed under Buwane's government. That's why, I think, Buwane, because he felt that maybe he felt that people had been arrested, then when he was told that she was involved, she didn't take any action.

Some people I mentioned there.

Maybe she said, this is the best I have.

Maybe she had sworn in front of me. Maybe. And that's what always involved in many things, these people. But okay, now according to Mr. Purbaya, there are a lot of data about it

and it has been mentioned in various media. So, maybe we have to do it like what Pak Prabowo said. There must be a repositioning of people. If you want to do it. If in theory, Pak Mahfud's schedule still has to be played again. The schedule has to be played again.

Pak Mahfud, I'm back to ...

We're talking about the new Minister, Pak Purbaya. About style, about policy, about the stripes, about thentry, about his courage, and all kinds of things. But I want to tell you, Pak Mahfud, that Pak Purbaya once criticized the team that you formed, namely the BLBI's Sadgas, Pak Mahfud. I remember, at a meeting, when I was asked by the press about the continuation of the BLBI's Sadgas,

which at that time, Pak Mahfud and Mrs. Mulyani as the head of the board. Mr. Purbaya said, that's more of a fight. I even noted, sir, I wrote it down so I don't get confused. On September 19th, in the media, the direct sentence was, how many years has the BLB been in existence? I use this style. What did you get in the last three years?

If there is none, it means that the money is gone. So, he said that he will not continue. What is your opinion, Mr. Mahfud?

I will make it straight. The last three years, we had a fight because we took over the BLB's guarantees. And in the end, we got 4.8 trillion. 40.8 trillion. It means 41 trillion. We got 3 years of debt because we robbed, we stole,

we did all kinds of things. What did they guarantee? In my opinion, if what Pak Urbaya said is true, it means that they don't follow the BLBI case. So, let me tell you. So, let me tell you. Can you explain it to the minister?

So, the collapse of the new order was accompanied by the collapse of national banks. So, the banks wanted to close everything. If the banks closed, the country could be destroyed. The country then gave a sum of funds in the form of a loan of 440 trillion.

That's what we call capitalization of food.

Yes, 440 trillion or 46 or 446 or 440. Well, then the country said, okay, you give me 440 trillion, but later I will help. You state how much money you have to pay. Give a debt statement. Then they make a debt statement.

Through the debt statement, it becomes 140 trillion. In the dollar, at that time, if the number changes from 140 to 42, from 140 to 138, it's because the dollar will fluctuate. But like that, it becomes 140 trillion.

So, around 300 trillion was given for free by the state. You can admit that you have a debt, now there are only 140 trillion left to the banks. There are 62 banks or something. Well, the accusation case was then processed by the BPPN, the National Banking and Health Agency. But the last one, this is the data, it's already confirmed.

These banks have 140 trillion rupiahs. There was a case in the middle of the road, the case of Samsul Nur Salim and Iqyi Nur Salim. What did he do? He signed a debt claim, a debt claim of Rp 4.6 trillion, and then give a guarantee. The BPPN has received it. Once the guarantee has been evaluated, the maximum price is 1.2 trillion.

It has been calculated everywhere. It is suspected that there is corruption. It is handled by the KPK, right? Handled by the KPK, there is corruption as big as 3.6 trillion, because of 4.6 trillion, of the 4.6% only paid for the 1.12% guarantee. The KPK handled it with a corruption charge of 3-4 trillion.

Syafruddin Tumanggung was imprisoned. According to the head of the BPPN. He was imprisoned in the State Court. He was corrupted. He was imprisoned in the High Court, he was put in jail. That's right, he was corrupt. In the high court, he was put in jail. Because he was corrupt.

But in the Supreme Court, he was dismissed. This is not a crime. One judge, his name is Salman Hutan, strengthened the state court and the high court. This is a crime.

Corruption.

But the other one said, just finish the data according to the amount of the debt. The other judge said, this is the administration. There is indeed a mistake, there is a loss of state money,

as much as 3-4 trillion. But this is back to the original agreement. He acknowledged the debt, everything. Well, from there, I applied for another one. Now, it's been 18 years, right? 18 years, right?

It's clear that this is a data issue. Yes, I applied for a data issue. I was invited by Sirimulyani, I said, Ma'am, there is a decision. That's it. We have to appeal again. What can we appeal for? I think it's already been decided. Because it's been too long, right?

It's been too long. It's been appealed for years. The Minister of Finance kept appealing, but it didn't work. I asked the press to show me the verdict to handle this. But the head of the Ministry of Finance, I was in charge of it.

I went to the press. I took it one by one. Now, there are 41 trillion when I left there.

When Mr. Joko Wibrahim was in power.

Yes, when Mr. Joko Wibrahim was in power. So, that's a lot of money. Not just a few. The rest is still a debt to the country. I know, whoever handles this will be approached by the public. Maybe with money.

Some threaten to use the officials. Some officials themselves have their own interests. Do you dare to do that? If you dare, you will be appreciated. Don't say that you have been working for three years and you have only got Rp41 trillion.

It's not certain. For example, a project that is said to have reached Rp60 trillion, we have been working for less than two years and we have got 41 trillion. What is it in the form? In the form of land, for example, we will take the golf course. All the assets.

There is a certificate guarantee. The problem is, in the Ministry of Finance, there are many certificates that have been lost. Why? It's been 18 years, they have been buried there. It's been too long. Some have been eaten by the rats.

Some say their offices have been moved, I don't know where else. But the documents are still there, the notes are in other places and so on. We call everyone. Well, if you really want to prove it, please do. According to Pak Purbaya, it is the duty of the State Department to do that. And I think the task is professional, what we do.

We face various approaches, but we say, this is the rule.

What is the offer of Pak Mahfud to Pak Purbaya to, say, write further on this matter?

Extending, reopening the Sadgas? Or how? Yes, it depends on what the Sadgas shape is, but this is a debt to the country. This is the matter. There is a sign. The point is there, Pak.

Not in the eyes of returning the country's loss, but it's a debt to the country.

So, maybe this will be hard. Because Pak Purbaya will face, this is Teman, there are also ministers who had the case. I was in the cabinet. I was the minister. I was in the cabinet.

I was in charge of the case.

I was in charge of the case. I was in charge of the case. I was in charge wow. Finally, he called the office. He said, if it was only with the minister or the ministerial office, I would not do it. Unless you called the president.

If it was the president, I would have done it. I said, okay. There were so many people. I was so brave.

Pak Purbaya heard this.

I salute Pak Purbaya. If I was not brave, it's okay. I salute and respect the changes that have been made for a month. There is a new feeling. For example, who was with Pak Renal Kasali on the podcast? The economist.

I watched it. Ferry Latuhihin.

Latuhihin. That's good. I don't agree with this. It's just a comparison. For me, I agree or disagree, it doesn't matter. But the steps that Mr. Purbaya took, I think it's good. He has a good style. He believes in himself in the DPR. He believes in himself. He answers directly.

He answers directly in the newspaper. was responsible for it. I was the one who was responsible for it. I was the one who was responsible for it. No one else was there to cover it up.

It was all done by force.

That's the good part. Yes, I was the one who was responsible for it. I was the one who was responsible for it. I was the one who was responsible for it. I was not a brave man. I just wanted to show that I was going to face it. Including the economic condition, how effective are the theories or policies.

Because people are waiting, right? It's only been a month. People are looking at the difference, what the difference is. There's another thing I want to point out.

There are many things to point out.

While there is hope from his style and the way he decides. What is it, sir? This country has a debt to the society. A country with a debt. A country with a debt.

A society with a debt. A country with a debt.

Well, when I was there, the debt was more than 5.8 trillion. Oh yeah? The country's debt. For example, people who have a project, but the country didn't pay for it. It was broken by the court, so it had to be paid, but it wasn't paid. Land liberation wasn not been paid for.

All kinds of things. In total, it's 5.8 trillion.

The total.

The total. Well, this has never been paid for. When the president is asked to pay, the president has to lead the people twice. The debt to the people must be paid, said the president. President Jokowi? Yes, President Jokowi. Twice.

In June, I formed a team. Under President Jokowi's order, I formed a team to pay the debt. I asked for the Minister of Finance's report on the debt. At that time, it was around 5.8 trillion. From all kinds of debts. When I was asked to pay, I just had it.

I never paid. Maybe because the principle of money is to find money, not to make money.

The country's wealth is accumulated.

But try it, if the people ... But this is a legal matter, right? If the people have a debt to the bank, to the country, one day the land is confiscated. Ask for a loan for another week, I sold it myself, I can't. It was confiscated, right?

Yes, it was confiscated. It was confiscated, then confiscated by the landowner himself without his consent. Many people were lost. It was even done in a mafia way. People wanted to pay, but the mafia stopped them. According to the mafia, it's not fair for this country. It's unfair if the country doesn't pay. Let's take an example. The one who cried in the DPR.

Istiqaq Karya. It's viral, Pak. He built a project in Semarang. He collected people's money, borrowed money, to build a government project.

When it was finished, he was not paid. 23 billion.

He was a small person. It's a small number.

There are still videos of people crying. And people came to me asking for help. They said, we are gathering the people to become poor because of this. In the past, we were doing this to get profit, to build our country. There's another tragic case.

Tarifin case. Tarifin, right. Tarifin. Tarifin is the son of a big businessman in Riau. In 1963, there was a big upheaval.

Yes, in 1963.

Suddenly, there was a confrontation between Indonesia and Malaysia. Indonesia-Malaysia. In the 1970s, he was in charge of the government with the evidence in the bank and in his own hands. It's true that the country owes money. The country wants to pay, but it doesn't pay. He was put in the court, level 1, level 2, level of the Supreme Court, and he won.

The country has to pay. The country has to pay. The state had to pay. So, I went to the Ministry of Finance. I wanted to pay, but I didn't. Finally, I asked for payment. But I asked for a calculation from the Supreme Court.

How much was the debt in rial? The Supreme Court calculated it to be around Rp. 175 billion. The tariff is gone. This is the heir, the one who has been notarized, that this is the heir, and has the right to it. But it wasn't paid either. They didn't want to.

By the Ministry of Finance?

They paid. I was told that I would be paid if I was counted by the Supreme Court. At that time, I was already counted by the Supreme Court. The debt was this much, I hoped to be paid. I was not paid.

Even though it was from the Supreme Court.

They reported to me, Sir, if the country wants to pay, if the country wants to pay, I will give you 50 billion for the country. I only want it. From the country. I'm just a sponsor.

From the heir?

From the heir. They come to me. They don't want to pay either. So I call them, how much is the country's debt? There are all kinds of things. They don't want to pay.

What is there to pay? Sir, if you pay, everyone will ask for payment. Yes, if you have debts. If we chase the debtors, like the BLBI, in less than two years, we got 41 trillion. This is 5.8 trillion, year after year, and we don't pay. I said, there are those who have been in debt for tens of years,

if the tariff is up to tens of years. Well, finally, when I wanted to stop being a minister, I sent a letter. Debt to the people, if it's already a court decision, the court said,

if you don't pay, you will get a flower every month. You pay the flower, you intentionally pay the flower, but you don't pay it, and the country's debt increases,

it means corruption, it harms the country. Because you can pay, you don't pay, but the debt increases. I sent a letter to the Minister of Finance. I sent a letter right away when I wanted to quit as Minister. I said, I'm not going to take care of this anymore. Now the debt must be paid according to the President's instructions twice.

And if you don't want to pay, according to the decision of the Supreme Court, the interest rate for every debt is 2% every month if I'm not mistaken. That's a big number. Presiden Jokowi knows about that? He knows. I keep reporting it. I keep reporting it. I forgot, it was Mr. Jokowi who asked me to pay.

As the team leader, right? Yes. You are responsible to Mr. Jokowi said, if you owe the people, you have to pay. I was asked this question every month. I thought it was Pak Jokowi. But the Minister of Finance didn't want to pay. There was a financial crisis in the percentage.

If you ask me, if I don't pay, the answer is not clear. So, I sent a letter. I talked to the KPK, with Mr. Marwoto at that time. Alex Marwoto. Alex Marwoto at that time, Mr. Marwoto. Alex Marwoto. Alex Marwoto. Mr. Marwoto, if there is a country that has to pay according to the decision of the Supreme Court with a month's salary, if for example the country does not want to pay,

but there is a salary, is it corrupt? Oh yes, it is corrupt, they say. It can be corrupt. Adds to the burden of the country. Even though the government pays, the debt will keep increasing, it will continue to be a debt forever. This is a serious matter.

If it can be reopened tomorrow, will it be considered as a corruption act?

Yes, it is a human right. It is a human right for Mr. Purbaya. Besides the crimes committed by the tax and interest payments, it is a modus. That's all for Mr Pak Purbaya.

There are many things that need to be clarified, Pak Purbaya, in the financial policy. Apart from the port, and everywhere else, there are many problems in the inside. We'll see, Pak. Okay, Pak. I'll continue a little bit, Pak. A few more points that are still being commented by the followers of Pak Mahfud.

We have seen in the last week, in the information that Reza Halid and Juristan are now stateless, sir. Because their passports have been withdrawn. It is said that the request of the investigators to withdraw their passports was fulfilled by the Ministry of Immigration and Society. So, they are stateless. And the reason was that he was from a country and he lost his citizenship, so he couldn't go anywhere. What is your opinion on the statement and the decision of the Jaksa?

For me, it's strange. If you remove your passport, many people, even though it's not necessary, many people said that if the passport is taken away, it means that the citizens of the country are gone. So, no one mentions stateless.

Because of the removal of passports. But actually, many of our friends don't have passports either. But that's the way it is. But for me, if stateless announced that it's stateless, it's a loss for the country. Then how do we use Interpol?

We have to mention the passport number. This is what we are looking for. The passport number is this, and the name is this. If it's removed, it's already out. It's already on the online list.

The list that we to be tracked. The list that is already there, it will come out automatically. Automatically, because it is lost. It is tracked. No one knows where it is. So, I don't know what I want to comment on, but in my opinion,

the removal of the passport makes it difficult to track the person involved.

It makes it difficult.

It is a disadvantage for us.

In my opinion.

What do you want? The passport is actually there. Then I asked Riza Khalid to be arrested. What is the basis for other countries to arrest him? The passport is there, right? Well, it's possible, maybe later. We can look for him, not by extradition, but by MLE,

Mutual Legal Assistance. Like we caught Maria Pauline in Serbia. Maria Pauline, she was already done with this, but we know, we have the data, we chase her, we catch her. 18 years, we can take her here, the BNI bank. But, I'm sorry, the reason I read the testimony,

said this, with being stateless, only being in one place, he definitely can't go anywhere. So, his choice is to return to Indonesia using SPLP,

the passport process.

Yes, it can be done if later, if you want to return, use SPLP. But remember, people can have a lot of passports. Can have two nationalities. There are some countries in Africa, as long as you pay $25,000, you can get a passport of a citizen of that country.

In Africa, there are small countries. There are also those who can get a passport from a big country because of the game. They can go anywhere with their passports. Even if they come to Indonesia, they won't be detected. Because it's not Rizal Khalid anymore,

it's another name, another passport, another country. It's possible. The number is different. It's possible. But that's the matter of surveillance. I hope it's not a way to free people so that they can run.

That's it, Pak. It can happen. Don't let that happen. But I hope it will happen. But hopefully, it won't happen. I still have a bad feeling about the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Ministry of Immigration. Okay, Pak Fud. That's enough for this week. Okay, Pak Mirsa. That's all for this week.

There are still a lot of notes from Pak Rizal, but the time is limited. We will meet again on the next podcast next week. Whoever you are, wherever you are, keep working, keep making positive contributions to this country. keep making positive contributions to this country. Never be tired of loving Indonesia.