Mala del Brenta con il Capo Felice Maniero | Pulp Podcast #31

So you didn't have any real friends within the organization, so you were sad to say, I bartered their freedom for mine?

No, no, no, no, nothing.

When the structure is finished, he was a genius of crime. I understand the charm, but at the same time, I say, look, he should be treated like a bandit. This has on conscience about thirty homicides, thousands of robberies, in short, in Veneto he ruled happily and at the same time he was very scary.

The pathos that an escape gives you, it's not the same, it's a thing, especially on a special prison, where no one had ever...

But he was a beast in real life.

Of course.

He was a villain that's not even a story.

It's clear that...

They have a lot of fun, though. The liturgies of a bigot, the theories of the plot, homelies on the dashboard, the tannies of a corrupt

With the brain in the pub, but with the wind in the mouth, you want to get to the juice, drink the pulp

Welcome back to Pulp Podcast, this is the second season from a secret location We have a guest whose fame precedes him Felice Maniero

Felice Maniero?

We are talking about Felice Maniero, better known as the face of Angelo

I'm fine, I greet my mother, hello!

Is this the one you gave me?

Yes, yes, I have another one

Don't go and congratulate the motor school Maybe I was stupid

I was going to take it like this

You were undervalued

So let's welcome our guest

Welcome

Also known as Angel Face

Head and founder of what has been called the Brenta Mall Let's say the first criminal organization born in the North. The first question I have to ask you is about this substantial difference that can be seen in the organization you created and of which you were head compared to the so-called Southern Mafia. Can you tell us what differences there were between these two realities, which often coexisted, and above all, the Southern Mafia tried to conquer the Veneto that you were in charge of,

and how did you manage to counteract them, to get on their nerves, to make sure they didn't make you happy.

Until 1980, no homicide had ever occurred for our organization. The first homicides started when drugs came in. With drug trafficking. Me and others were negative and others wanted to...

Start this business.

They wanted... Those who were negative to drugs left first. That is, me and Nantes of 2-3 at the beginning. And then they started shooting when our rule was not to shoot anyone, let's send him away from the region, let's send him away. And, in short, I set my foot on this...

on this...

on this business.

on this business that was doing us one against the other. The first one to be killed was a 30-year-old boy who wasn't even a Grakin-ke. Of course, he wasn't a prominent figure? No, no. I was in prison and they killed him at his house, this boy, for drug trafficking. When I, shortly after that murder I went out and gathered everyone and said, look, here it's enough, enough mafia, enough drugs, enough...

a little bit of those things. Sure.

Because you were under pressure from the South Mafia.

Yes, also from our own.

From your own for the drug trade.

And also from the Milan Mafia. I don't know if you know...

Turatello.

Turatello, yes. Marietto, Daniello.

Before showing you the interview we did with Felice Maniero, we wanted to give you a little introduction and a little context about this interview with Maurizio Dianese, a journalist who wrote for years on the newspaper and who was the person who, from the beginning, followed the events of Maniero and wrote about them,

even sometimes in a way, contesting him. You always take him out sometimes, always by contesting him, always by saying that he is a bandit.

It is interesting, first of all, to tell the story of how a story of antagonism then becomes a friendship. You have always been considered by Felice Maniero one of his most dangerous journalists. And today you were also here to accompany him in this interview.

Yes, he contacted me a year ago. Nobody, not even him, understood that he was suffering from a very severe depression. Now he has rebuilt things over time. He says that depression started after he from Fossombrone. The escape from Fossombrone, the escape, is one of the moments of a monstrous discharge of adrenaline. And from that moment he began to descend into the underworld.

There is a friend of his who tells me that he locked himself in his house he didn't want to see anyone, he was in bed all day now he has realized this, and a year ago he called me and he wanted to talk to me, he said we have to write the last book we will write it together, I have never written anything with him I have always reconstructed his story

saying, look, we are talking about the greatest bandit of all time in Northern Italy. He had the largest gang that has ever existed, 450 soldiers, he was the richest gang in the world, he put aside, he says, so we can be sure, at least 33 billion lire. These 33 billion lire are finished in nothing. They have never been found. They will never be found because

you have spent them. So he's telling us this, but we've already done the interview with Felice, who told us the opposite. Exactly. He told us, I got everything.

No, he has nothing left.

Ok.

Also because you, among so many people who have had a criminal career, you have maintained many benefits, we can say. Ah yes. I mean, in terms of inheritance, you have not lost anything, you could say.

Sure.

They did... I made my own calculations.

It's very difficult, but if you had to make a super approximate estimate of all the money you've earned, how much would it be?

No comment.

Someone made the approximate estimate, but... The estimate they make, our dear Tommaso told us, who is here, Tommaso Ricciardelli, to help us behind the scenes, around 500 million, you told me, right? That's what they say, an estimate...

That's what they say.

Where did you put it?

The treasure.

We'll win it later, behind the scenes.

And then...

I'll definitely watch it.

The... Another thing... and then... I'm sure I'll watch it the...

the interview is better

it's better, we'll do a treasure hunt like Gold Roger or One Piece

there's a question mark

about the works of art because you asked him about the works of art he's a great collector of works of art only of Schifano's paintings he had a few hundred pieces

because Mario Schifano, a famous Roman painter went to his house and in exchange for cocaine he gave him the paintings this collection was all sold or exchanged and the only question,

now I write it in the book that will be published by Feltrinelli at the beginning of next year where I reconstruct this story, the only question and I'm pretty sure it's true, is about a Van Gogh self-portrait. Why am I pretty sure it's true? someone told me who bought it for him. This self-portrait of Van Gogh has never been released, so I guess it's from somewhere. But a person who suffers from depression at his level, who now has problems with eloquence,

to rationalize things, etc. I wonder if you are able to find it.

And you didn't do initiatory rites, for example?

Absolutely not.

No initiatory rites? You, with the collaborators of justice, the repentants, those who are called in jargon the infamous, you foresaw the elimination to silence them.

No, no, away from the region. Like exile? Like exile, yes.

You were moving them away but you were not killing them.

Yes, yes.

And your relationship with organizations like Andranghe and Tarakamorra, that came from the south, did they try in some way to prevail over you and conquer your territory. How did you manage to defeat them?

There were the Cutoliani, the new family, like Camorra. And the new family...

And like Andrangheta?

Andrangheta was not yet... Not yet arrived? ...powerful. Clear.

So let's say that it helped you the fact that they were still in the development phase and that they were not yet powerful. But you enjoyed an arsenal and you were a great arms dealer.

In Croatia it is said that the war was won thanks to the weapons of Felice Magnero.

How did this new branch of your company come about? I did a lot of arms trafficking between Venice and Yugoslavia especially with Bosnia, Serbia we sold them to everyone even if they were against each other you sold them to everyone, even if they were against us.

You sold them to both sides.

Yes, and then they were able to free themselves.

The fact that you enjoyed such a large arsenal helped you to instill fear in other organizations. So you were suppliers, you covered all of Italy, you were the biggest arms dealer in Italy?

Yes, I would say so.

But, rightly, for those who don't know the story well, how did the construction of the Brenta's suitcase begin? I mean, you were born in a family of...

I have to...

No, briefly. How did the idea of starting to build something more structured comes up.

Yes, yes, yes. I should start as a child. As you wish. So, in the meantime, let's start not with robbery. I'm talking about 1975, to rob grain trucks, cheese, grain cheeses.

A foodstuff. A foodstuff of the place. So we started stealing before we could rob. A truck full of Parmigiano Reggiano could take almost a Ferrari, stealing a truck. So it was... It was a lot of money. With this, it was a lot of money, yes.

Then you started with the food items, and then you started with the precious ones.

Yes, first with the half-hearted, then with the precious ones. But the story is long.

Sure, of how you ended up.

It's a long story. Of course, how you got together. It's a long story.

But the idea, what is curious to know, in my opinion, for us, for those who watch us, you already started with the intention of founding a criminal organization, or did you find yourself in it? No, I found it. An event where a group of people, at a certain point, when you did Tot Rapini, you said, let's create a company, basically an illegal company. You got together, but there was no idea from the beginning

to found a criminal organization in Northern Italy.

Yes, perfect.

The planning of the very firstrapes, for example. You say, here, Parmigiano, a Porta Parmigiano. What was the first planning? How do we do it?

There is the Capanone in Montovano, in Parmese, it's full of... The shapes, bro. The shapes of cheese. but... the cheese shapes we kept making those we didn't touch... it was still pre-gold

after that step one evening we went to Piazzola sul Brenta and we saw a refinery, but in the middle of nowhere. I said, stop, stop, stop. We had our little 7.65 pistol. We got in the van. I looked, I looked, I looked, what was there? There was no one here, or was there's someone in front of me.

I closed the window. And let's see what comes out. If there are candles, there must be fire. I make these candles, and they come out like... ...stupidos and we take them and we take away all their 30 kilos of gold

I remember this one because it was the first one

The very first one you took

30 kilos of gold it was a lot we load it in the car and we go home.

So from there you understand how easy it was to rob the shops?

Without having to do

big numbers,

big numbers, a lot of things.

Sure.

The question to which we did not receive an answer, the question arises spontaneously, how does a human being create such an empire? The construction of this Brandt's Mala, how did it happen progressively?

Because seeing it from the outside, today it is something almost incredible.

He is a genius of crime. Sometimes, you mentioned it, he compares it to Valanzasca. Valanzasca killed in his whole life those he killed in a year. Valanzasca committed a number of robberies that he organized in a weekend.

This was the genius of crime. How was he born? weekend. This was the genius of crime. How was it born? It was found in a place where there is a saying, if you plant beans, criminals grow. If you plant beans, criminals grow. It means that it was a very poor environment, very poor, who didn't have big chances and so he started stealing food.

You told him about the grain forms, it's absolutely inconceivable today, if you tell your children, you say, there are people who steal grain, but we are out of our heads. They lived like this, stealing grain forms, salami, etc. And then at a certain point he understands that he can really be the boss because he is very good at organizing robberies and everyone wants to work with him because the blows are clean.

The only road accident he has in his life is that of Cristina Pavese and it is seriously a road accident.

You specialize in robberies of the metals, jewellery, gold deposits and precious stones.

What was the casino in Venice. We got almost 8-9 billion.

8-9 billion? With one robbery, without any shareholder.

How did that kind of robbery go?

Very easy. Sometimes, many say, I don't do it here. Many do it here, because they don't have the courage to go and take them, to do the robberies. And we got them, and from there, that's the most important one. Then there are many others.

There are...

It was simple, in this 9 billion euro robbery, it was a robbery that went smoothly.

Yes, smoothly.

Instead of a crooked gang.

There is a famous one that went...

Yes, the one of the train. Yes. Yes, yes. The one of the train, we got on the train in Mestre. We disguised ourselves. We hid in the train, and then we had 4 or 5 people put in the arrived, we pulled the handbrake, the safety brake, And... And they all came down.

What was it, an explosive?

Yes, tritone.

Tritone?

Inside there was a train's armored chamber, an armored bus. And I put it there. I shot up there. Look, there's the guards. I saw them all run away. Once I saw them all run away, I turned on the engine.

The car exploded?

Yes, the car exploded. We didn't even realize what happened next. We didn't even know. Was it a woman? It was a 20-year-old girl. Was she killed in this incident. She was killed,

so much so that she was convicted of murder and murder of the innocent.

You say, I was under the massacred, so I saw what was under the wheels of the train and I saw that on the other side there was nothing so much so that when with the megaphone I say run away etc. I see the guards fleeing and therefore the two positions are reconcilable, that is, in fact, when he gets on the train and ignites the explosive, he does not know that there is the train. It's clear. And so it's an accident, so much so that they were not convicted of murder. They took very little. This is the thing that marked him the most, together with the death of his daughter. The death of his daughter, he never had again.

Every time he speaks...

His daughter died a suicide?

Elena died a suicide. Elena is dead, she is sure to commit suicide, because the day we hear about her death, I call him and he is in Padova and says I'm going down to Pescara where the daughter was killed and I... The first thing you think about... Exactly. We, and he, we need to clear all the pages because this will go down and it will be a massacre. It's not that it goes down and it's reported, it's a massacre. After two hours he calls himself and says they found the diary, a hundred pages in which he continues to say that he wants to kill himself.

But the sense of guilt he had towards his daughter has not recovered. We recently went for a walk to the cemetery where his daughter was buried. He could not speak.

That was the worst of all. Then the others went well well almost all of them

So, Conti, this job is very simple I know But, in your opinion, how long was it possible to do this kind of activity? Because I imagine there was a big gap with video cameras Everything changed Now someone still does high-end cameras

but many don't end up very well because there is clearly video surveillance.

Look, those who say that now there are all the alarms, all the equipment

technology

are the ones that are afraid

so you don't agree? you think that even today they could be robbed of their jobs?

my goodness

so you still see a potential ground?

potential? but I'm not telling you

but for example, how?

how, Pablo? today, according to you that with all the technology, GPS, interceptions, you say that it would be possible to do big things?

Absolutely yes.

I wouldn't have said that.

Me neither, absolutely not. So, in your opinion, aren't there such sharp are such sharp or brave criminal minds?

There is only drug trafficking around. There is only drug trafficking. Only drug trafficking. There is nothing else to do.

Well, it is the main asset of the mafia organizations today, right?

Yes, but there are also other...

Businesses?

Businesses, without having to...

In fact, we wanted to approach you, we like to understand the history of criminal organizations of the past, because they also teach us what our country has become, because criminal organizations live in our country and sometimes they live with the state. Consequently, learning what they were makes us better understand what we are today. Another business that you were very good at was the exchange players in the casinos.

And you, with the casinos, had very close relationships with gambling. What I wanted to ask you is let's say that the big casinos in Italy are very few

and are much more representative. But gambling in this country has evolved. In those that are online casinos, and there are many more representatives. But gambling in this country has evolved. In those that are the online casinos, the betting centers, in what way...

Yes, and the illegal biscuits were all ours, too.

All the biscuits.

Everything where there was no drug was ours.

That you take into account today the gambling business is still in the hands of organized crime, it has been inserted and it is still so simple to recycle money inside the casino. Because it's the same, because obviously if I have illegal proceeds to recycle, the first thing I do is go to a casino, I get the cash and spend a a small part in the game.

Nobody has ever given him cash. I have taken 60 million lire a month for the cashiers of the Caserno of Venice. Apart from the robberies, every month 60 million. In cash. But you also played for vice? I also played for vice, but not much. I was the one who took the money from all the clubs.

What kind of fun did you have during the period of maximum power?

Because I guess it's hard to manage it, all that power and having a mental solidity.

I had big cars, a mess too.

I ask you because always making the parallel with other organizations, there are many men of power within criminal contexts who do not enjoy anything at the level of life. Maybe some of the cars, but it is very rare, often they live almost monastic lives. Instead, you were a little more quiet from that point of view, nobody touched you anyway, even if you drove a new car every day. No one touched us and there were no mafias or robbers in our territory. When you get to have that kind of power, what kind of relationship do you have to maintain with other

powers? I mean, I don't know, the police, the state, other forces of power, I imagine that they approach you and vice versa. How did you behave? Apart from the mafia, you told us, but the others?

Well, as far as the police officers are concerned, we were the chief inspector of the state police. Then we paid 6,000, 7,000 lire a month, every time. More, 6,7 thousand lire a month.

More than that, 6-7 million lire.

Millions of lire, yes. Then, the one from the police, the chief inspector, he was chosen, he paid for it.

They were external collaborators of a company.

Then I had a lieutenant of the secret services, a colonel of the secret services. All under Paga.

Also of the secret services. Yes. The relationship with the secret services, he says, I have a book to pay for. He told you, though.

Yes, he told us, it's true. He told us.

But you, first of all, the curious thing that interests me is how from, you would have dedicated a large part of your life to follow his...

Yes, luckily I did something else.

But you followed your life a lot of time following his career? Yes, luckily I did something else But you followed his life a lot

Yes, I followed it a lot

And what do you think about the present? What is left of the Mala del Brenta? Is there a legacy that has been taken? Or has it really been debelled?

For anagraphic reasons there is nothing left Felice Maniero is the youngest and he turned 71 a few days ago All the others are older than him and so basically nothing is left

then you tell me, in Veneto there is the space of the supernatural? Yes there are people from the old Mala del Brenta that are in the circle? Yes but the organizational structure responded to Felice Maniero when Felice Maniero is ending, the structure ends. He was a genius of crime.

I don't say it with admiration, I say it by warning that I understand the charm. First of all, I say that we are all fascinated by the dark side of the moon, you like to see the opposite. I understand the charm and at the same time

I say, look, it must be treated as a bandit. This has on conscience about thirty homicides, thousands of robberies. In short, in Veneto he ruled happily and at the time he was very scared. Here, because when you ask him, have you ever been afraid? He answers, I have never been afraid because I suffer was depressed and depressed people don't know what fear is. But he was a beast.

He was a villain that is not even relatable.

So you had direct relations with state apparatus. And so, in a way, rather than giving you the hunt, you could say that there was a sort of hidden relationship between you.

Yes.

For a certain period, there was a relationship.

And then you had to deal with it at a certain point, at the moment you go to jail, they give you a sentence, at a certain point you have to deal with the state at some point. What happens there? Because you declared seven murders, you were held guilty of seven murders, you did it for more or less seven years, right?

Yes.

And so, how did you start collaborating? Even mentally, why did you decide to do it? For convenience, I presume?

For convenience, yes.

You never hid this, did you?

No, no. When I collaborated, I revealed everything that...

It was 1994, right?

1994. I told everyone what I had done, so as not to have anything left behind. The judges say it too. keep things behind me. The judges say it too.

All the judges say it. In comparison to your collaborators, friends, at that time you didn't try anything or did you still make scruples?

I made scruples because they certainly collaborate with each other. And that's what they did.

So you didn't have any real friends within the organization, so you were sad to say, I bartered their freedom for mine.

No, no, no, no, nothing. There were also two of my cousins who bartered, but now when a group of 50 people collaborate all you destroy everything.

Because this is is a big difference with other organizations in other realities if you collaborate you become completely out of ethics of that organization

we were talking about a character inside Andranghe that was collaborating something out of the world there were three collaborators in the whole history I was one of the Andrangheta, and I was saying to myself, I want to collaborate with something out of the world. There have been three collaborators in the whole history,

big ones, in short. Instead, in your case it was a little different, because in the end, in a cynical way, you always said, I did this outside to enrich myself, inside, in the same way, I did it for convenience.

You are perhaps one of the greatest experts of evasions from Italian detention centers. How many evasions have you been able to do? Three, but from maximum security prisons. The most famous is the evasion you did with a brigadier.

Yes, yes. The most famous is the escape you made with a brigadier.

Yes. In Fossombrone prison you made the most striking escape.

Yes, we did 2,5 km under the leaves.

You asked for the planim plans for the prison. How did you manage to get the plans? Because I would never give the plans of a prison to a detainee.

But I would go and ask for them.

And they gave them to you?

Yes. I was studying... It was an old... an old... Castelle Medievale, maybe? An old... no, a castle.

Ah, a convent, yes.

A convent.

And from there we left. I told my uncle and cousin to take a look at this and see... ...to go behind... You realize from the planimetry that there was a tunnel underneath,. The explosives were discharged...

They were discharged into a forest?

Into a river. So they dug a hole in the exit.

Your cousin was digging?

Yes, and another brigadier. They dug the whole circle so that it was easy to get out and in. And we, instead, from inside, every night...

You took out the bricks? Ah, you mean the bars? Yes, we cut the bars to cut the other bars. Your cousin should have left you a signal, a pack of cigarettes, right? You found that day the pack of cigarettes

and it shows that the tunnel was empty. You were happy that day. And then, the next day, because we weren't ready for the escape, but the next day I told everyone who was at the bank...

You played cards? We played cards, you know, all the bosses... All the high-ranking mafia bosses? All of them. All of them. In that period Buscetta had started to collaborate and so all the mafia bosses of a certain level were behind the bars at that time, almost all of them.

And so what did you say to them the day before the escape?

We were playing cards together, I thought, I'll do it. Now, in a little while, I'm going out. When I go out, Pepino comes out. Pepino, the privateer. We were waiting for the others, and... And nothing, we gave up everything

and went down to the...

And you left? Nobody wanted to run away with you? Nobody.

Why didn't they think you would make it?

They wouldn't make it. All the people from the restaurant wouldn't make it. Peppino went to his side and my cousin and I went to the other side.

You told us you don't have a single euro. In your opinion, how did you spend all this money?

Well, I've asked this question many times. I'll give you just one example. When he escapes from Padua's prison, he is a thug. A thug's life costs on average 10 million lire, which is more or less 10,000 euros today. So it's very expensive because you need a phone,

you need a driver, you need a house, you need transportation, etc. So he spent a lot. But he escapes from Padua's prison and his last wife, Marta Bisello, tells him, I saw that a Gucci backpack has just come out, now passed, but why not, I don't understand anything, it's the Rome, which costs 10 million lire and is only in Paris. They take the plane and go to Paris, to Charles V of Paris, where a suite costs 7-8 thousand euros today, and they stay there for a week.

Yes, in fact, that's the big difference between the organizations of the South and the Mara del Brenta, they have always been obstinate, they have never had a love life, they have never hidden themselves, they have always spent everything... Talking with Bonaventura, who was an interviewee who will be released, he told us, for example, that the Andrangheta does not seek money, money is not the end, it is the means to obtain power, even those caught in the mafia, lived like a croix-de-char, almost. With the least they could do.

Even the businesses he set up, were used to justify the money, in case they were found. But they were all lost companies. He admits it, he set up the Eniacque company, the one of the cleaners he talks about.

One day I told him, happy as a rabbit, let's go on with this story. He said, yes, you're right, it was water everywhere.

Not bad.

Here, too, I'll ask you a question. Do you think that today, escaping from the tunnels is simple and that something has changed in terms of safety after your escape, for example? Do you think they have adopted new safety measures? Or do you still think it's so easy to escape from prison?

I did those two... because there's another one... Those two escapes there, I would do them again immediately if it happened to me.

And also a good adrenaline rush.

After seven months I left, so I left with freedom in my pocket. But the pathos that an evasion gives you is not the same. It's a thing, especially on a special prison where no one has ever been. And then there's Padova, which is another...

Do you want to tell Padova? Was Padova also another... Go on, go on You want to tell us about Padova? Was Padova also a maximum security?

Yes, Madonna was... was... Tutorina was inside

Ah, Tutorina was inside with you?

Did you know her? Did you talk to her?

No, no

Never?

And how did you escape from there?

How did you escape from Padova's prison?

All my men were there.

There was a lot of corruption.

Among the evasions, there was also the one in Vicenza, which didnaresi agents who were then taking cocaine from another detainee. We agreed that he would give us the rope from the climber.

Ok, to climb.

No, he just gave us the rope.

Just the rope.

Just the rope. In the evening, we had to escape the next day. In the morning, everything was blown up because the two corrupt agents were scared and they sent her to Bologna.

And from there, from Vicenza, they moved you to Padova, because they were afraid that you would escape. But it was in Padova that you managed to escape.

Exactly.

But you already had men in Padova?

Yes, I had them all in Padova. So when they moved you there, you said... I organized 9 men to do such an action and it was not a short time. The one in Padova is very particular, it is really cinematic. What happened there? I had to be taken out with a lawyer and it didn't go well. Then I did it with the police, corrupting them with 700 million. I said, the next day him to come here with a car and be careful not to do anything stupid because this trip will end badly. He said no, no, no, he said he was happy.

I said I would give him everything, I don't even want the money. He said no, no, I already have the money.

And this car arrives the next day?

This car arrives the next day, at about 10 pm.

Was it a police car or a fake police car? Yes, it was a fake police car. And they go there. Inside there were your men, dressed as police officers?

Yes. They come in, take them, tie all the cars, all the guards, about twenty, thirty. the cars, all the guards, about 20-30 they tie them up, they also close the armory

and they go up, they come to get us and they say to us, everyone who called us to open the door but we didn't, we were screwed

all the other rooms were open

even for us we were all selfish

we were going straight we went out with the two cars

and we were like... did this corrupt guard have repercussions? or they never found out?

they found out they found out? They found out.

They found out?

Yes. But the guards never put them in jail, because they know that the leaders are responsible.

Another technique you used to get your colleagues to be imprisoned was to steal great works of art. Once you managed to steal the coffin of St. Anthony of Padua and to rob it with the freedom for your colleague. It's crazy if you think that the state would accept this type of exchange? They arrested a general.

They arrested General Conforti, the head of all Italian heritage.

Why? Did he have a deal with you?

You basically had him arrested.

No, his men. I didn't even see him.

Sure. His men exposed him, let's say.

His men arrested him. And his men, who were supposed to be there, did their job. They did their job.

Ok.

What remains of the Brenta mafia today? I imagine you are now a stranger to everything that happens on the territory. But do you think anyone has inevitably taken your place?

There is something of the Brenta mafia. They are good good, jewelry theft.

It remained, so to speak, the criminal tradition of jewelry theft remained.

The organization gave up a heroin, the cocaine. Cocaine, what was it? Smoke, and that's it.

What do you think about your ex-colleagues who talk about things that concern you, the band? For example, Gian Paolo Manca went to many broadcasts.

That clown. on my life and so, bang for the buck, I will answer. The dialogue of the Montegana has already been recorded, as you all know, it is about Felice Maniero, the one who made me take the castles, made me do 30 years in jail and more but for me it was over I didn't want any more diatribes on a journalistic level that's enough but that asshole Fedez

by force of course throws petrol on fire Fede thinks he's joking? His podcasts are a sign of evil.

You didn't stay in good terms, let's say. You didn't have any contact anymore.

Not even... Even if he came to the section where they freed us, I put him in.

I saw some interviews with Manka, where he... From his point of view, he's pissed off because he said he went to jail because you were infamously hungry. I never talked about hunger.

Tonight, I think it's the first time.

You never had a chance to confront yourself?

No, but I don't even do it because it would be humiliating as a bandit.

Sure, you say it's not of your own level, it's not the same criminal nature.

Of many, not of myself.

Now I ask you this question always in terms of human relations, right? From the stories you have told us, you seem like a very cynical man, very cold. But there are people who, during your life, have remained in your heart. Because, as you say, you seem very detached from the world, from human relationships. You always manage to make this perception of selfishness, of self-indulgence, to go straight like a train. this perception of selfishness, of self-indulgence,

of going straight like a train. But there are people you carry in your heart, that you may have loved.

Yes, there is Flavio Zinato, who used to do rap with me, I don't even know what it is, He was a thief, he didn't do anything to me. If you see him, take a cigarette in your hand. He eats it. Because he doesn't even know what it is.

I have to sign, then I'll tell you.

Ok, ok.

Did you maintain any blood relationship with your family?

My family is the one I've always had and that's it.

You had a very close relationship with your mother. Yes, a lot. And, absurdly, the fact that you were so attached to your mother. It was what made you capture her. I don't even know if it's a true story or a metropolitan legend. You basically buy a yacht in cash and give it the nickname of your mother.

The reason why you are being arrested is because the investigators who were on your trail knew about this strong bond with your mother. They discover a boat bought in cash and see that the name is your mother's name.

Yes, but it's not that they discover my mother's name because there was Lucy Lucy on it. If it was for that, would I still be on the boat now?

Your brother-in-law talks to two undercover agents, without knowing that they were undercover, saying, I'm going on this gentleman's boat. They sniff and say, who is this man? They see that the name coincides with your mother's name,

with your mother's last name and then they arrest you.

Only you have to...

We have to tighten the mask, guys. And what do these infiltrated agents hear? That they approach this friend of yours

knowing that he was a friend of yours. They are chatting under the umbrella, and he said, there's a friend of ours, and he said, yes, yes, yes, he's coming with the car,

and he said, I have to go to a friend of mine,

who has a very big boat. Yes, very big. And he goes around, the police comes, they look at the boat, and he goes around the police and he gets to the bank register of the person who bought a bank

with 3 billion in Italy, a new one it's easy, you don't need to go back they see the name, Lucia, they understood the name

and they understood that you were in his room

And how did this arrest happen? You were on a boat

In Capri No, I arrived from Positano Ok With the tender, I think I arrived, I put the tender there in the river, and they took me

And the curious thing about this story is that there was so much happiness to take the happy manero that they didn't even check the boat

no

and there was something inside

100 million, they put it in the pockets of the jackets. Ah, they stole them from you? They were my money, which was in a safe. Of the boat? They said, let's take the money, they must have said,

let's take the money, if they put it in the boat, they...

So the staff of the boat?

No, the staff of the boat, no, they were my companions and...

So they were intimate then?

Yes, the police.

The police?

The police entered the boat and took your money.

They didn't get in, they didn't take my money

They just disappeared

They are nothing

They just disappeared

You say that maybe inside, the people on board were talking Let's take the money, the police heard you and then they didn't find each other so I assume someone took it

ok ok I don't know if I've ever met him, so I guess someone has. You had a good relationship with your mother, you insisted on the iota, because beyond that, how did they get there? But someone who is 40 years old, and has the iota in his head, his mother...

Tell us about the relationship. had with the Croatian woman.

He was the only person who was close to him.

He had four children from four different women. He never fell in love with any of them. The only one he married was the Croatian woman, who he saw for half an hour to get the Croatian citizenship and to go around with the secret services that he told you about, that is, the weapons, etc.

But he confesses, he says, I was an idiot, I didn't understand that love was important and that I had to dedicate myself to these things, I only thought about the robberies. I didn't understand a thing about these things. And in the end, the real morbid attachment to the mother is that she extended a protective network until yesterday morning.

Taking a look at your life, what regrets do you have?

No comment. between choosing a criminal life and getting more benefits than a conviction. Because Sivocifer has basically managed to... He has repented, he has had all his affiliates arrested and he has kept the heritage intact.

And he hasn't spent a day in jail.

And he has spent very a day in jail? He did very little in jail. And then, doing this interview, you realize that...

He paid for it, in his own way.

But...

There's not much left of that. There's not much left and... the saying, crime doesn't pay, somehow, echoes, because... it makes you understand that maybe you don't pay economically, but the weight of that life you carry it all behind.

But I told you, he doesn't have a penny left, but I'm pretty sure he told me who bought it and it was not sold, so someone will have it. When I told him, okay, but if you can, he said, I can't touch it, because the way I touch it, it's clear that they'll kidnap him. And so the second question is, so... What will he do? He'll leave him to his children.

Of course.

He has this thing in his head that he has to leave...

But they too, obviously, will never be able to touch him.

No, they theoretically will.

Yes?

Yes, once he's dead, yes.

Okay.

We're talking about such a figure that could solve the problems of all three children. For example, a dead person, the three that are alive, could be split into several tens of millions of heads.

Let's say that a particular epilogue on this could be the hypothesis you made before. Yes, he has this heritage, he has this painting, but he doesn't remember where it is anymore. I'm afraid. He won't be able to give anything to his children, and maybe he'll be left scattered or he'll go to someone else. We thank you.

Thank you very much for this testimony.

Thank you very much, we thank Felice Maniero. See you next week, Monday.

You don't grow up because you're afraid. I wasn't afraid at all. See you next Monday! I couldn't do something like that. I thank God every day that I didn't raise my hand.

What was the relationship you had with women in your life?

Terrible.

Terrible? Have you had many?

Yes, but we won't talk about it now.

It's your lawyer's fault, right? Yes, yes.

It's not my fault. It's not my fault.

He did it right.