Me acusaron de matar a mi novia sin pruebas | María Elizabeth #Penitencia 179 #entrevista #México

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Penitentiary, through Fundación Reinserta, supports children in contact with violence. You ♪♪

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♪♪ There are stories that break everything we believe we understand, particularly about justice. María Elizabeth dreamed of being a doctor. She believed in listening, in caring, in accompanying. Today she faces an accusation that could cost her 70 years of her life. What happens when a tragedy becomes a public narrative

before it becomes true justice? And what happens when the system needs a guilty person faster than it needs evidence? In this chapter, we will not only hear the voice of María Elizabeth, we will also analyze the case from a legal and scientific point of view. Her lawyer explains the flaws in the due process,

and a criminal expert will shed light on the technical elements that question the accusation. It is an integral episode where we confront the evidence, the prejudices and the social pressure. Because in a country where femicide is an open wound, we must also ask ourselves what happens when justice is wrong. If you care to understand before judging, if you think the truth deserves time and depth,

subscribe to Penitencia and share this episode. Listening is also a way of doing justice.

Maria, how are you?

Good, Saskia, thank you very much. No, on the contrary, that you are unfortunately involved in? And now we are going to talk a little bit about the case. But tell me a little bit about you. Who is Maria before being in this legal situation. Well, I was born in a small family, I'm only in a family with my parents and me. I'm the youngest in my father's family,

and the only child in my mother's family. They have always worked a lot, so for a large part of my life I was in extracurricular activities, or the nursery, as they called it. They are doctors, right? Yes, they are doctors.

So, I did a lot of extracurricular activities, like ballet classes for many years. I was also in music. I think high school was my most multifaceted life. Apart from ballet, I also danced porras. I was in a group of porras dancers.

I practiced volleyball, I was in theater, I was in a debate club. In high school I was in a movie club, in a choir. And I think that was when I had my best academic success. It was when I never liked school, and that's when I liked it. And that's when I decided to study medicine. You went through a hard time. Yes, yes.

A complicated career. I mean, at first I wanted to study everything. I wanted to be a physicist, I wanted to be a philosopher, I wanted to study everything. I wanted to be a physicist, a philosopher, and then one day I surprised my parents by telling them, you see, I'm going to be a doctor. I told them no all my life. The rebel. The medical parents always want their children to be doctors doctor, right? Yes, it's a frustrating dream. But no, on the contrary, at home it was like, what? Are you sure? You weren't going to study, I don't know, music?

And once, after the initial shock, they supported me 100%. And that's how I got in. And the truth is that at first, I'm not going to say it was that simple at first. I realized I had to learn how to study and all these things. At first, it was just the theoretical part. And then there was a day when I saw the meaning.

And especially when I went to a hospital and I was in front of a person and that's when I realized that I hadn't made a mistake, that it was my vocation, for example. Tell me about that day. What was it like? What context were you in? Well, as a foreigner, I had to study a large part of my career during the pandemic. So, in those semesters I lost a lot of my sense of meaning, because everything was theory.

And then, when I started going to the practices... You revived those gains. Exactly. I saw the meaning of learning and executing that knowledge. And not only that, I realized that my way of being is different. You change when you are in front of a person and somehow you have to find a way to help them. So, for me it was very satisfying, I had many advantages or benefits.

From a spiritual level, it's obviously a challenge, because you don't always know everything, and you also have to keep learning, and I have to keep learning, clearly. And it was so clear my vocation that I was sure, and I am sure, that I want to be a geriatrician. I want to see this part of the population, the older adults. And I don't know, I feel like, I like to listen to them. I feel like it's a part of medicine where you need time, patience, a lot of listening.

And I think those are qualities that I have. So that was my idea of what I want to be and do. I would like to do another one. I imagine that adult people who say they need time, I imagine that they go to the doctor and stay longer talking, because they need it.

We forget about them as a community. Yes, I feel that sometimes you heal more by listening to them than by giving them a treatment.

Maybe they don't even have anything,

and one day you become that. and giving them a treatment. Maybe they don't even have anything,

maybe one day you'll become like that. Doctor, today you are prevented from continuing to study. Three years ago, there was a complicated situation with your ex-girlfriend. But before we go into the details of what happened that day, which today has you accused of femicide,

let's talk a little bit about... Let's pretend that all this... just a little bit, a second, happened to us. How was your relationship with Brenda? How did you meet? How did you fall in love, I imagine, with each other?

Or why did you decide to be together? ¿Cómo se enamoraron, me imagino, una de la otra? ¿Por qué decidieron estar juntas? Nos conocimos desde el propedeutico, que es para entrar a la carrera.

Ella también estudiaba medicina.

Sí, estábamos en... hasta el mismo grupo nos tocó. Entonces, pues realmente en un principio empezamos como una amistad. Éramos del mismo grupito y cosas así. So, at first we were like friends, we were in the same group and stuff like that. When I met her, she was in a relationship with another girl who was much older than her. And, well, from what she told me, her relationship was difficult, her relationship. Let's say I was there, I supported her, as time went by, she decided to end her relationship

and we were still in contact, and well, one day things happened. I think I hadn't been with a woman before. I had never had any relationship with a woman. So I think it was a little difficult because there is a concept that has a certain internalized machismo. And it's like this idea of, well, it was hard for me to accept it in myself.

Even though I knew that... I mean, since I was a child, I had this concept of I can love anyone. Obviously, I don't think I understood the depth, but I knew it. So...

Well, at first I had my doubts, she had been in other relationships with women, she was more... Defined. Exactly, and also, well obviously, I understand, she didn't feel so comfortable with me, at first I wanted to be a and all that stuff. But it was actually because of my process of leaving. Of leaving the club. Exactly. So, I think it was patient.

A big part of our relationship was based on our support throughout the career. Because we were together for several semesters. And obviously it's a very demanding course, so having someone to support you, someone you can study with, rest, everything. There was also the fact that she lived near the faculty,

and especially the first semesters, you have to be there for a long time, in school. So, not only me, but other friends and so on, offered us their space so that we were there when we had to return to classes.

I mean, I liked going out, going to places, I liked going to the movies. I saw that she wasn't used to it, so I enjoyed doing those things. Because it came from a relationship that maybe wasn't that... Yes, well, from the things she told me, because of this difference of so many years, this girl already had an idea of something more mature,

but she wasn't ready yet. And that caused a lot of conflicts. She also had some conflicts at home, albeis lista y eso les causó muchos conflictos. También tenía algunos conflictos en su casa, entonces se la pasaba mucho tiempo en casa de esta chica, pero pues igual, o sea, generaba conflictos. Entonces...

Para ti, ¿qué fue esa relación? O sea, como, si hablamos únicamente de esa relación, ¿qué significó para ti, Brenda? Pues aprendí muchas cosas de mí misma. También tuve como un ejemplo de lo que yo quería llegar a ser. Me refiero a como más, una persona más independiente. Yo siempre he vivido con mis papás, con mi mamá, desde hace un tiempo.

Y pues digo, era niña de casa, soy niña de casa, pero pues Brent me enseñó a ser más responsable con mis cosas, con cuidar lo que tengo, hacer ya tus cosas, como no depender de tus papás en ese sentido. Y también, ella era un gran ejemplo de una persona que está dispuesta a cambiar. Siento que todos a veces decimos, voy a cambiar esto que no me gusta.

Y nos cuesta mucho trabajo y realmente, ¿no lo hacemos? Decimos que lo vamos a hacer pero no lo hacemos. Y ella sí lo intentaba. Ella era una cualidad que me gustaba de ella. Sí intentaba ser mejor o hacerlo mejor. Y en muchos sentidos.

Exacto. ¿Te dirías que tu relación con ella fue una relación que te ayudó a crecer? Sí. I'm So the rest of the world is young Get the other servers See in enjoy in a second. Do tall vision in novertanto por me. Sino por alguien mas Obviamente I come oh Otra parte no no todo. He's hojuelas. Como todas las relaciones. Y también siento que es una relación que a mí me drenó mucho.

Alguna vez con mi psicóloga estaba trabajando como en qué me aportó a mí y qué le aporté yo a ella. in what she gave me and what I gave her. At that moment I felt like I hadn't given her that much, because I felt like she had taught me all these things, like responsibility, I don't know, even more security, independence, all this, and I didn't know what I had brought to him. And I realized, obviously, with this therapy, that I had offered him warmth, love,

and those were things that weren't so present in his life. But he had a counterpart, which I now know, and that is that I think it was also a very co-dependent relationship. I don't know,

she had a lot of conflict, for example, that I would relate to men, she was very jealous, so the way I did I handled that was, I'm not going to tell you any names, but over time I realized that it wasn't just men, I didn't even relate to women that deeply.

And I felt like all our friends were friends of hers, and not mine. And it's like you had left your people. de ella y no míos. Y como que te habías dejado a tu gente. Exacto. Y eso que sí tenía mis amistades desde secundaria, prepa, que aún siguen conmigo hoy en día, pero

yo me sentía, me empecé a sentir muy sola. Y fue al final de la relación donde yo sentía que solo éramos ella y yo. Y yo no, o sea, where I felt like it was just her and me. And I didn't... I mean, I felt alone.

It's difficult, and as we've met and talked off camera, I see that the first thing you want is to respect Bren and Brenda, and I imagine it's difficult to be in a place where you're being accused of killing your ex-girlfriend, Brenda, as a woman who takes care of another woman. Something that we need a lot in Mexico, to protect and take care of each other, but at the same time to defend yourself

in front of a 70-year sentence in prison. What a difficult place, especially when Brenda is no longer there to tell her version. But in the end, your story is also your story. You lived what you lived, and you have every right to speak version. I'm not sure if he's not with you anymore, but I'm listening to you. He taught you a lot. You taught him a lot.

A relationship like all of them, maybe, with their good things. And a relationship that also led them to break up for some reasons. How long did they last? Basically, almost three years, but a large part of the relationship was during the pandemic, so we didn't see each other for a long time. We made video calls and these things, but yes, more or less. How did your parents and her parents take on your relationship? Well, my parents, I think I started by talking about my accept it, but they never made me feel bad about it. I just think it was like they didn't understand it.

I think they were also very concerned about the connotation, or what it implies, rather. Sometimes being from the community, I was afraid that I would be stigmatized, that I would be mistreated, that I would be excluded or discriminated. I think that was mainly their concern, but I also questioned them. Do you want me to pretend that I don't? And I don't know, be unhappy with my life or something like that.

It's difficult, but it has to be. And I would appreciate if you were there for me. y apreciaría que estés ahí para mí, ¿no? Y conforme pasó el tiempo, creo que fue siendo más aceptado por ellos. Y en cuanto a los padres de... yo solo sé lo que ella me dijo, y como ella desde mucho más joven supo su sexualidad y tuvo también noviazgos, I know what she told me. And since she, from a much younger age, knew her sexuality and also had

boyfriends, she told me that she wasn't taken well at first. Like many families in Mexico. Yes, I think she had certain hints

of violence because of her sexual preference. But still, as time went by, de violencia por su preferencia sexual. Pero igual, o sea, conforme fue pasando el tiempo y ya en el punto donde yo la conocí, pues ya era un hecho, ya no era, pero... Si, ya no estaba jugando ni explorando ni muchísimo menos.

Exacto, entonces ya su familia lo sabía y sabía que había tenido, por ejemplo, otras novias y bueno, que yo estaba actualmente con ella. my family knew about it and I knew that I had had other girlfriends and that I was currently with her. Why did you decide to end the relationship, María? I was the one who decided. Returning to this idea that I started to feel very lonely.

I also felt very empty. I didn't know who I was, what I wanted, where I was going. We were just her and me. I feel like it's not a good place to give in a relationship. You stay if you don't feel like you have anything. We even had conversations where she would say, I feel like you don't want to be in this relationship anymore.

And I meditated on it, and finally, at the end of March or early April of 2022 was when I told her, you know, I think I can't do it anymore. I need to rebuild myself. And I was surprised in the sense that she took it very well at first. She told me, I understand, it's okay, we still have school, our friends in common,

we're going to keep being friends. And I said, okay. I wasn't very sure, I said, it's hard to end up like this, as friends, but ok, let's try. And I do feel that in that month I felt, maybe, like with a lot of guilt, to leave her. Because, obviously, you cause harm, even if you don't want to. So, I tried to still be there, like, accompanying her.

Obviously, the affection never goes away, but... But, every time I was more sure that I didn't... I mean, I wanted to continue as myself, and see what life had in store for me. And also, as the month passed, I realized that separation was harder for her. How long did you cut off from when the events took place? Approximately a month. ¿Cuánto tiempo habían cortado a cuando pasaron los hechos? Aproximadamente un mes.

¿Y en ese mes trataron de llevar la fiesta en paz? Me imagino que con momentos más fáciles que otros, pero la realidad es que estaba complicado. Sí, días previos a lo que pasó, because it was complicated. Yes, days before what happened, I saw her very stressed, very emotionally distressed.

She was looking for me a lot to calm down or things like that, but I was already in a position where I said, I feel like it didn't belong anymore, because I couldn't offer you that help.

We were in the eighth semester of the degree, and that means you're going to go to hospitals, so there are a lot of exams, things you need to go through. There was a lot of exams, things you need to go through in your career. There was a lot of academic stress. So I felt like she was balancing those two. I thought that once she finished all the academic load, she would be better.

But it was precisely in those days that she was very distressed, but she didn't know how to help her. What happened that day, from your perspective? Precisely because of the end of the semester, we were invited to this meeting by several friends. And I went there on my own. I remember that I had said that I wasn't going and I ended up leaving and she left with some friends. And when I arrived, she was already there, I greeted everyone, but... I think it was one of the first social Some of our friends already knew that we weren't together anymore. But it was like she sat on one side of the table and I sat on the other. It was a quiet meeting. There was, for example, food and alcohol, but we were playing board games, everything was very relaxed.

But as the hours passed, she started looking for me. And I realized that she was already drunk from the way she spoke. And she told me that she wanted us to talk. And I told her that I didn't think it was convenient. platicaramos y yo le dije que no creía que fuera conveniente que mejor en otro momento teníamos cualquier otro momento a que te mías tú que platicarán en ese momento que crees que podía pues siento

que estaba siendo muy incoherente because she was telling me that she didn't want us to go back but that she wanted us to talk. And I felt like something so personal, a party or a meeting, wasn't the right time. Y sobre todo, bueno a mí me incomodaba que estuviera como alcoholizada. Siento que no estoy tan segura de, por ejemplo, que la gente se acuerde o que, o sea...

Era un sinsentido.

Entonces le dije que no y como que seguí atendiendo la reunión. So I said no, and I continued attending the meeting. And for example, I started writing messages, that I wanted to talk. Even the messages were badly written, when you write fast. Well, it came to time when I was getting messages saying that I should block her at that time.

And I was still with my friends at the meeting. And after that, she tried to talk to us again. She tried to make it seem like they were in a place where they didn't see us anymore. But I told her, not right now. Relax. Did people notice that you were having those discussions?

No, but they did notice that she was acting weird. For example, after I told her that second time, she left the apartment. They even told me that she knew if she was leaving because she didn't leave with the people she had arrived with. I told them that I had no idea.

And like five minutes later, he came back. And that's when he stayed in the kitchen of the apartment. I mean, he wasn't with us, with the people we were meeting. He was just there. And that's when a friend approaches him and asks, What's wrong? What's going on?

And she tells him that she just wants to talk to me,

and that everything is fine.

She says to me, I say, well, let's talk, ok. The friend says to you. And I say, ok, let's talk. I stop and I say, well, let's talk here in the kitchen. What's going on?

She told me she was leaving, that she only wanted five minutes. She even showed me that she was going to order Uber on her cell phone. And I said, okay. And she said, but no, I want to talk outside the apartment. And, well, I agreed, right?

I mean, so she leaves the apartment first. I leave later, and there is something that bothers her, and it doesn't really make much sense to me. What was it that bothered her? What was it? Can you tell me? Yes, when I was about to close the door un amigo me dice como que si necesito algo, le avisé. Es un amigo que ya sabía que ya no estábamos juntas.

Le dije, sí, gracias. Cierro la puerta. Intentando no estar tan cerca de ella, me dice como si yo te fuera a hacer algo. Y le digo, no creo que se refiriera a eso. as if I were going to do something to you. And I tell her, I don't think she meant that. She felt that your friend was protecting you, let's say, in some way, from her.

And then, the most nonsensical thing happened. They hadn't talked anymore, they didn't talk anymore. She didn't say anything else, I mean, no. The context is that we are in an apartment on the 13th floor. The void fell. is I ran down the stairs of the 13th floor.

We got there, a friend had already arrived because he got to the elevator faster. He told me he still has a pulse, that he's going to be reanimated. And they tell me to leave, to calm down. And they call it Ambulances, Civil Protection. And it's when it comes to Civil Protection that they say that the maneuvers. And how I lived it is that there was a part of my mind

that knew that medically, I knew that... That there was no more. And there was a part of me that still thought, when I'm in the hospital, I'm going to tell him how he can think of it, I was so sad. I was so sad. I was so sad. I was so sad. I was so sad. I was so sad. I was so sad.

I was so sad. I was so sad. and we stayed there waiting for our families to arrive. They spoke to her family. Why did Civil Protection ask for the help to be separated? Because she had already given herself about 15 minutes of resuscitation and he no longer had a pulse or signs and that's when the maneuvers stop.

And after that, it was just waiting for everyone to arrive. Obviously, I think that by protocol, reached the public ministry. And because of the time, because of everything, because of the conditions, the ministry said that we should give our statement as witnesses the next day. And it's already Sunday, well, it was a Saturday. I go to the public ministry on Sunday to give my statement. It's not that they have cited you, you went because you wanted to.

Well, no, they did cite all of us who were obviously in the place. But as witnesses. As witnesses, all of us. And what did they say? What is stipulated in the folder, Maria, what did your friends say? What did you say? Well, obviously I am the eyewitness. I saw the whole situation.

And my colleagues who are still in the meeting, they were more or like what they heard. And regarding the fact that they heard the scream, they left, some of them participated in the reanimation. We left the apartment very shortly, so it's precisely what they describe,

that there was no more time, that we were not heard screaming, that there was nothing. Obviously, after that statement, it was advised that I continue my academic life, so I continued in contact with them. I can say that I think we never found the time, the space, or the moment to talk about what happened, especially those of us who were at the end of that meeting.

So I think that, for example, I really don't know how they lived it. Why didn't you tell us about that conversation? I feel like it's a reaction that maybe most of us had, like trying to move forward after something so traumatic. Also, for example, this happens on Saturday and I don't reintegrate to class until Thursday.

And especially because I had left my cell phone with the conversation I mentioned in the public ministry as obviously part of my statement as a witness. And I was left out of touch, I didn't know what happened. I was in shock, I spent it crying with my mom every day. And... I have to reintegrate

because I still had some exams left, for example, in college. It's when... my friends tell me that the funeral was over, that some people left,

that they had to leave because some members of her family had gotten very aggressive with them., that they had to leave because some of their family members had gotten very aggressive with them. So they left. Why didn't you go to the shelter? I mean, no.

I feel like I was so in shock that I completely forgot about it and I didn't communicate with anyone. I didn't know, I didn't find out, or anything. Everything happened. Time passed and... I didn't know anything. Everything happened. Time stopped.

Yes. Yes, and then when they told me that she had already been deported, I was like, well... Yes. And I didn't go. And it was precisely because the family had become a little aggressive, that they told me that I would to preferably not visit the grave.

They already had the theory that you had been the one who pushed them at that time? Well, nowadays I know that yes. I know that from the first moment, precisely on that Sunday, when I went to testify, the family said, no, this was a murder. And they clung to that. But they didn't even listen to me, nothing.

They didn't want to think that it was something else. I feel that it wasn't. For them, there was no room for anything. When was the first time you talked to your friends who had been there? Until Thursday, when I tried to reintegrate into my academic activities. Also, at my school, a mass was held.

There is a small chapel and I was there because almost no one was going. So it was like a private silence and they had taken a photograph of her in large precisely for the ceremony. So that was what was there in the chapel.

And you were going to that space?

Yes Almost literally on Monday of that week I started taking therapy and it was advised that I should continue with my academic activities which was going to be the healthiest thing. So, shortly after the election of the hospital,

which in medicine is an important year in medicine. It's where you have to be, right? Yes, in which hospital? So I... I continued like this, I continued with my trauma-reprocessing therapy. I finished my year of internment and started two months of social service.

A year passed, and you didn't think that you would be linked to the material author of Brenda's femicide? No, I mean, obviously I wasn't going to treat myself that way because things hadn't been like that. What I tried was to rebuild myself. I also went to a boarding school in Puebla. And then I returned to the social service and I started working near the center of Mexico City.

Where? It's a specialty clinic, it's part of the health department. How does this start to link to a possible suicide, accident, whatever you want to call it? How does it start to look like a femicide? How do they start to take the file there, the investigation there? How do you end up spending almost two years in prison?

The truth is that there was a moment at the beginning where it was speculated that the family was going to have intentions of taking this further. But again, I didn't focus on that because I was living something else. Exactly. And I kept going and I was focused on that, on what seemed normal one day. So, time went by, and the truth is that it was like when I was arrested. I mean, they told me, you have a warrant for the presumed femicide.

They don't tell me who, but I clearly know what they're talking about. So, they let me talk to my mom and I tell her, Mom, they're arresting me for Bre. And that's when, in all of that, we already know how they had been manipulating me for a year and five months.

That's it. Where were they arrest you detained, Maria? I was detained outside my house, basically, when I was heading to the social service.

Were you intercepted and taken to the public police? I was brought around. I was detained at approximately 7.45 in the morning. I was taken to the Mexico City Prosecutor's Office first, and then I was taken to several places in the state of Mexico. First, they took me to Mexico, then I don't know what. They brought me in the car for many hours,

and it was until about 2 in the afternoon that I was taken to Barrientos. To the Barrientos prison. Yes, to the Barrientos prison. that they were going to put me in jail. So... In jail? Yes, in jail.

What did you think at that moment? If you remember, how did you live that day? How did you live it?

Yes, I mean... I was in shock, but... the shock doesn't paralyze me. I mean, I was doing things, the paperwork they asked me to do, all this. I remember that before entering Barrientos,

the police had behaved very well, but just before they put me in, they started like, we know you killed her, and tell us how it was. And I was like, what are you talking about? que me metieran empezaron como sabemos que la mataste y dinos cómo fue y yo así de qué hablan y así es como me meten Querido Elan, ustedes deciden tomar este caso que ya estamos escuchando, que ya escuchamos de María Elizabeth.

Un caso un poco raro, ¿no? Sabemos que luego la fiscalía integra carpetas de investigación un poquito mal hechas, pero aquí es físicamente imposible que Elie haya matado a su exnovia.

Pero, ¿cómo es que este caso llega a ustedes y por qué deciden ustedes tomar este caso? Muy buena pregunta y creo que es una de las razones más importantes en este caso es el por qué. Primero, el asunto checaba varias cajitas en nuestro criterio como despacho y como fundación de la barra porque este asunto lo lleva el despacho pero lo llevamos pro bono para as a criterion as a office and as a foundation of the BAR, because this issue is taken by the office, but we take it for the foundation. First, there was an issue where there was clear evidence that the client was innocent. There was, as you say, an impossible materiality of the commission of of crime, which we saw clearly,

an injustice for the detention of the client, and a person who could not, or who did not have the resources wide to employ a defense, this is enough. In this matter, we were very interested in being able to collaborate and for that is the foundation, precisely to represent people who cannot pay an adequate defense.

Knowing that it is physically impossible, knowing that scientifically it is proven that there is no way that he pushed Brenda to fall in the way in which they are inculcating her, how is it that she ends up

deprived of freedom and now in a house arrest? Well, that's what we're trying to verify. Ellie was well represented at the beginning, that is, she goes as a witness, she declares that she witnessed the events 14 de mayo del 22, que es esta noche trágica de estos sucesos por la lamentable pérdida de Brenda. Ella es, como todos los demás, ella va después del fallecimiento por la caída a declarar, y después es detenida con una orden de aprehensión.

Aparte mucho después, ¿no? Años después. is Lo primero es la misma declaración que le hacen a ella como testigo. Dicen, oye, pues tú te atestiguaste que ahí estabas. Y paralela, y tú, aparte de ella, pues narra los hechos, porque ella es testigo.

Como testigo que les dice, pasó esto, esto, esto, esto, que es lo que, un poco lo que ella nos cuenta de cómo salió de su, del departamento, discutieron un poco afuera. treatment, they argued a little outside. That's right, and how it is positioned.

So, the prosecution says, we already have a cause here.

You put yourself in time, form and place.

Of course.

There you are, she is yourself, with your testimony, you are located at that moment, and then there is the expert, who is a perverse expert, frankly perverse, because any expert, I think, would not have been badly influenced, would have come to a diametrically opposite conclusion.

Clearly I had no idea how Barrientos was going to be. I didn't even know it was a prison. I didn't even know it was a prison to begin with. So, obviously I feel like at first it's very degrading, because not only did this come as something super surprising, degradante porque no solo esto vino como algo súper sorpresivo sino que pues te empiezan a tratar como un delincuente no y

te desvisten, te revisan todas estas cosas y luego They check you, all these things. And then, that day I had chosen to use a purple surgical pyjama. Purple, purple. And that's how I got into the bathroom. So, I started to get a lot of attention with my purple surgical pyjama. And I feel that when you just arrive, the environment is very hostile, both the internal and the custodial ones.

Obviously, and there I feel a first bit of, like, why are you here? Did you do it? So that's how people approach you. They don't ask you how you are, what's wrong with no te pregunta cómo estás, ¿no? ¿Qué te pasó? Es como, ¿y si lo hiciste?

Obviamente, por el traje, como que me identificaron rápido de, me empezaron a decir que sí era la enfermera. Y ya. and... At first, they put me with a girl that I... Actually, we became good friends over time because she took care of me. For example, during that time I didn't have contact with my family or my lawyers until the day of my initial hearing.

And 72 hours later? More than 72 hours later. I arrive on Monday and I'm given the hearing until Thursday. And at that time, I didn't have clothes, I didn't have money, I didn't have anything. You hadn't spoken to your parents?

No.

So...

You didn't use, right? No. So, the phone didn't...

There, you use cards. You need money to buy a card and spend your minutes on calls. I didn't. It was only after a woman gave me a card. And that's when I could talk to them. una señora me regaló una tarjeta. Y ya fue cuando les pude hablar. Y ya me dijeron lo que ellos habían investigado,

que las visitas ahí en Barrientos para las mujeres, bueno, en proceso, iniciales o cosas así, eran los sábados. Entonces, que hasta el sábado íbamos a poder vernos. Y pues en ese tiempo, pues es esta chica, la chola le dec who helped me, gave me clothes, soap, toilet paper. And then I went down to my first hearing

and I say, these are things that you know what is right and what is wrong. I think that the system is very much worth it, that people, especially the ones who are being judged, correcto y que es lo incorrecto. Creo que mucho de el sistema se vale de que la gente, sobre todo la que imputa, no conozca sus derechos ni cómo es un debido proceso y todo esto. Pero llego, veo a mis abogados y les dan una carpeta así y les dicen, solo tienen 10 minutos para revisarla. Mis abogados protestan, pero el juez no le importó. Ajá, así era. to review it. My lawyers protest, but the judge...

He didn't care. Yeah, that's how it was. So... I know afterwards that it wasn't the complete folder, all these things. And...

And, And...

I don't know, I feel like from the beginning... I mean, I was guilty. I mean, it wasn't...

I feel like it wasn't, Yes, I mean...

I was spoken to as...

as a murderer, a feminist. Who spoke to you like that? The judge, above all. What did he say? It was like, in the way he expressed himself to me, I told my parents that I felt treated as if I were a man. There was no gender perspective.

And I always emphasized this historical framework of femicide, like the story of the elements, of violent people, of people who hate women, all these things. We asked for several hearings for change the means of caution. And in all of them, it was like, you are denied because you are violent, because you...

But what proof do you have against yourself? In the folder, not real, perhaps, but in the folder, how do you link this to a femicide? Well, to begin with, they use my statement as a witness, as proof that I was there, in the time, person. Then they talk about a fight, a fight where there were like a fight and then I end up pushing her and throwing her and it's like she falls.

What do they do to say this? pericial donde o sea literalmente solo dicen que yo la proyecto al vacío no explican tal cual como o sea solo es de que están forcejeando y la proyecta el barandero estaba muy chiquito? pues no yo creo que me llegaba como a esta altura ella a donde le? pues ella era unos centímetros más alta yo mido unos I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. It doesn't make much sense. How big was the beard? 1.12 It's impossible, right? Before the break, the beard broke?

No.

No, the beard is intact. They went to the place, to take pictures, everything. And it's impossible because of the size of this? Yes, and I think that those are obviously more scientific things, but the way you fall is very different if you fall head first or standing up. In criminal history, those things are considered. And how did she fall?

Well, what was most of the damage were the legs. Not so much, for example, the head. Which would have made sense if I had pushed her and... It would have been the head. Exactly. And... Exactly. declaraciones de testigos que no estuvieron en el lugar, ni de, o sea, de una exnovia de ella,

que fue supuestamente con quien estuvo hablando ese día, de un primo que, incluso creo que llegó a haber una declaración donde, que en Facebook vio que alguien dijo que yo lo había hecho, entonces que por eso lo decía. O sea, venía a decir que... Algo que vio en Facebook. Ajá, y... I had done, so that's why I was saying it. I was coming to say that...

Something you saw on Facebook. Uh-huh. And... I mean, actually, none of the witnesses who were actually there talk about those things, but for example, the cousin says he saw that I had scratches on my arms. I went to the public ministry.

If they had asked me, I would have shown them my arms, my hands, whatever. There were no such elements. They say there are stones, but they say they were your nails. But there are no experimental elements to determine that they were your nails. I mean, there is no proof. There are no evidence to prove that it was your nails. No, for example, in her case, they did do it to her, and there is no tissue or anything. my statement as a witness and this supposed expert that there was a

scratch and I projected it to link me

What does the expert say? The expert says, it can be concluded that Brenda was projected in such a way that she jumps or appears conclusion the guy if we the camera that we project that I the telephone cable keep

bring cash or less to a party to go over the last week is a double a yes

local is impossible for him no vast a comprojected that line as he has where else I was a seed and I'm very good or is on time and they have react I've ever had a lot better take a little

local is impossible is on this on the past ten years to have a lot of it vertically, which is impossible. That doesn't happen. You would have to have projected it almost from the feet. You have to lift it. Which, the same force would have given us. And apart, we maintain that if that had been the case, she would have fallen upside down and not on her feet. Yes, because it makes this effect. Si eso hubiera sido el caso, perdón, ella hubiera caído de cabeza y no de pies como cayó.

Sí, porque se hace este efecto.

Sí, hubiera caído así y una vez que hubiera estado así, no hubiera girado en el aire, ¿no? Cosa que nos llama mucho la atención.

Que ella cayó pies primero.

Así es, cayó pies primero. Entonces, se le vincula, priva su libertad, pasa este periodo en reclusión y en amparo que ahora está en revisión se termina que se tendría que haber los amas bien se tiene que reponer la audiencia de vinculación porque porque no podría saber usado su testimonio como testigo para ubicarla en por varias razones no que eso es uno seguramente no tuvo presencia de un abogado cuando declaró use derecho de no incriminarte. Lo que no puedes es llegar como testigo a decir una cosa y que tu testimonio como testigo sea usado en tu contra después como imputado, porque son reglas diferentes del juego. Lo que yo digo como testigo se puede usar como un testimonio. No se debe de usar como una declaración o como una confesional, porque en el momento

que me cambien la calidad, yo tendría que haber tenido ciertos derechos que se tendría a confessional. Because the moment they change my quality, I would have to have certain rights that I would have to have observed. How? To be assisted by a lawyer. So, if the review confirms the results of the amparo, what will happen? Well, this hearing will be repeated, but they will no longer be able to value what the IAEA said at that time.

So, what evidence will they have against him?

Only the police report.

But the police report already determined that it is physically impossible that with a projection it has generated the effect that it generated in Como Cayó.

Rather, the police report of the prosecution must be debunked to believe that what that police report are saying is materially impossible.

So, how do you achieve the arrest of the homicidal?

Is the statement discredited? There are two supports. There is a support against the change of the measure, and that is won. And in that support, Lissa and Llanos, says, hey, this woman doesn't have to be, at this moment, free.

So there is a domestic arrest, and the other protection?

That is against self-binding. That is against self-binding, which is because of the statement that was made.

That still hasn't been resolved.

It hasn't been resolved.

And when it is resolved, we are confident that the school board will restore, as Amparo says, the link-up hearing. And there we will be able to contribute more abundant proofs, discrediting the prosecutor's office. Which, obviously, has a great vice. You can't make a prosecutor's office in that sense, concluding that it is projected on one side. no puedes hacer una pericial en ese sentido, concluyendo que se le proyecta de un lado, cuando, pues, digo, ahorita vamos a poder ver el barandal, pero cuando es bateriamente imposible.

A ver, vamos a, tenemos al perito que vino a hacer este análisis, vamos a ver.

Sí, el perito nos podrá dar una muestra de porque la pericia el que se presenta en la carpeta carece de sustento

bienvenida doctora en ciencias forenses es correcto y a parte es criminalista tienes una escuela que se llama cien for que hace estado tú involucrada en And apart from that, you're a criminal. You have a school called Cienfor, which you've been involved in many cases of peritages. In the case of Deban, many, many cases of peritages. And today, you're the expert, one of the experts, in the case of María Elizabeth and the victim.

That's right.

In this case, we have to name the people, Brenda, the victim of this case, which unfortunately we were saying, and we were saying it also with Elizabeth, and with Ilan, the lawyer, it is a case where there are two victims. That's right, two families suffering. Two families suffering, and well, a terrible case. Now, for me it was very important, and with all due respect,

the work you do, and that the experts in our country and the world do, to understand very well something so important, which is what happened that day in that apartment, in that party between María Elizabeth and the victim. And that's why this replica was made, which was used, I understand, in the trial. This railing has been used, which is the exact railing that was there.

So thank you for being here and thank you for giving us your knowledge in this case. The first thing I want to ask you is, in broad strokes, before going into details, how do you see the case and the fact that they are accusing Maria Elizabeth of physically having pushed Brenda and that's why Brenda fell and lost her life?

How do you see it from a scientific point of view? Of course, first of all, thank you very much for the invitation, it's a pleasure to be with you. And look, my vision is always going to be based on science. Science tells us from the beginning that what is happening with Maria Elizabeth is terrifying because of a combination of many things.

Ignorance, misuse of the place, misuse by the police, and from there, once a hypothesis is created that has no support, but that unfortunately reaches the ears of all kinds of people, then we already have a culprit. So, we are saying that the media, in the end, the fact that it is a case that is heard,

because apart from being interesting, and I say this as a lesbian woman, the fact that there are two women who have a romantic relationship is the factor that makes the case become media-friendly.

Totally. I, being part of the LGBT community, think it's crazy. Totally, and also, imagine, she is being accused of femicide. Femicide between two girls, regardless of the inclination, because it seems to me tremendously appalling that they contaminate with your intimacy, which is something so

yours, a case that at the end of the day has nothing to do with that topic. Especially because we are talking about circumstances where the very clues that were found in the place speak clearly to us of what happened and that was not taken into consideration. You commented that at the beginning of the trial you knew that this barandol was used. I wasn't there at that time, but when it was decided to recreate

with the barandol, we already had this issue of... It was María Elizabeth. So, she was already sentenced... She was already stigmatized, of course. She was already sentenced by society. Immediately, yes. Because even when we have these cases, people no longer listen, but there is only one victim, one defendant, and she, the bad one, who they didn't want to see, or they even use the social

class, which has nothing to do with it here. I was fortunate enough to meet her. She is an incredible human being, María Elizabeth. She is a very good person. She is unable to make any kind of trial against the victim or against anyone. She is a completely empathetic person and she does not take that part into consideration.

Unfortunately, she makes hasty trials established. as in the case of the... But, that is also scientifically wrong, given that there are the evidence, the messages, the cell phones, the witnesses themselves who talk about how the relationship between them was, it was a toxic relationship.

Yes, of course. A relationship where there was constant conflict between them and where there was this emotional blackmail, in some way, and we don't say it, you and I. There are the messages, there are the witnesses who lived the life-long relationship of both. So it can be assumed that there was a background.

Yes, there was an important background. There is even a documented psychiatric record regarding the victim, who did not even attend at the time, which was perhaps more important than anything else that was happening at that time. And I think that Maria Elizabeth's empathy, knowing all this, including the víctima, pues se pueden ver reflejadas las lesiones de cutting, que es algo que, o sea, la víctima a gritos seguramente

pedía ayuda, ¿no? Claro. A través de este tipo de lesiones. Que para que no sepa de la gente que se corta esto que tú dices, cutting, que es el nombre oficial, de las personas que se auto lesionan para sentir, yo con personas que lo hacen y lo que dicen es que canaliza en el dolor que es corrent en emocional mente a una herida física

correcto entonces habla que es una persona con ciertos antecedentes depresivos no o con o con esta ansiedad o esta angustia es correcto y es la necesidad auto lesionarse para auto castigarse también tiene un componente It's correct. And it's the need to self-injure to self-punish. It has that component. It's like you don't feel worthy of something. So, of course, they are completely victims and they are people who need help, especially at the age of these young girls.

In Brenda's body, you can see... Of course, the scars. And they are very noticeable. They even have very specific characteristics. Yes. They are several, they are common. se ven esclavado. Claro, las cicatrices. Y son muy notorias. Es que tienen características muy puntuales. Exactamente.

Y puedes determinar cuando una lesión es autoinfligida o cuando es hecha por una persona externa. Incluso son en partes del cuerpo que se esconde con ropa.

Es correcto. En el interpierna.

Es correcto. Entonces, además de toda esa medi mediatism that already existed, unfortunately the experts of the practical branch, such as criminal medicine, those who handle the indices, not all, did not consider all the important aspects because it was not only to consider the space in the area where the facts that are investigated happen, that is, in the corridor prior to the balcony, but below there were also objects that were not taken into consideration,

even though they were documented.

You mean the pot and the...

Of course, the pot, the stones, the type of floor, because even the ironic thing about the case is that they are documented. There are photographs that fixed everything, Inclusive, lo irónico del caso es que sí están documentados. Hay fotografías que fijaron todo. Y eso implicaba que necesariamente los peritos que intervinieron tenían que tomar en consideración todo. No nada más es este espacio, porque finalmente estamos

hablando de cuerpos que tienen tejido y que evidentemente esos tejidos se van a ver vulnerados cuando existe un impacto con

fuerza.

Después de algunos ejemplos de cosas que se debieron haber considerado abajo, que no se consideraron. vulnerable when there is a strong impact. After giving some examples of things that should have been considered below, that were not considered, the elephant paw type plant was completely deformed. So, if that happened immediately, because at the end of the day, they do their criminal intervention in the place shortly after the fact. I necessarily have to do something that in criminal justice we call it the principle of correspondence

and see if the deformation corresponds with those injuries or signs that the body presents in this case of the victim. So the elephant's paw was deformed because the body was presented in this case of the victim. So the elephant's leg was deformed because the body fell or for another reason? Sure, the expert could say, oh, maybe it had nothing to do with the fact, well, investigate it. Investigate it, because criminal law allows you to.

It allows you to establish, according to the morphology, according to the weight, according to the characteristics, and in addition to the injuries that the victim did present, De acuerdo a la morfología, de acuerdo al peso, de acuerdo a las características y además de las lesiones que sí presentó la víctima, sí efectivamente existía correspondencia. Porque además fue muy, muy claro. Y es la manera en la que regularmente nosotros hacemos lo que se llama reconstrucción. De hecho, es una reconstrucción criminalística que la puede hacer inclusive a través de dibujitos. Ya existen muchas herramientas que permiten hacerlo a través de recreaciones virtuales, pero es factible sobre todo para los peritos que acuden por primera vez al lugar,

porque el lugar realmente fue resguardado.

Él tenía que analizar eso, además, lógicamente, de los demás objetos que era empezando desde el pasillo.

Eso no se analizó.

No.

Entonces, hoy no sabemos si la planta estaba deforme, porque the plant was deformed because the plants... No, we do know because there are photos. They are even taken by the experts in criminal justice. But we don't know if it was deformed because the body fell or because the plant naturally...

I did show it in my dictum. I did show it. There is even another dictum of another expert, a physicist who does virtual recreation, and it coincided. The expert is not part of my team. The expert is independent, Vicente. And it coincided when I saw the reconstruction.

I had already given my dictum, and it coincided perfectly with everything. And why is it important, Catalina? Why is it important? Because when facts are given, where people or objects intervene, and there is contact between them, only science is going to determine exactly what happened. personas u objetos y hay contacto entre ellos solamente, únicamente la ciencia es la que nos va a determinar exactamente qué fue lo que pasó.

Y en este caso particular, vete qué relevancia hay entre la caída o entre el impacto y la pata de elefante, por ejemplo. Que antes del impacto, con el piso o con el plano de sustentación,

como le llamamos en criminalística, hubo un contacto entre el cuerpo de la víctima y la pata de fuego.

Eso fue algo que lo amantebó, digamos. Claro, claro. Inclusive cuando uno ve las imágenes del cuerpo, uno se da clara cuenta que pudo haber sido peor si hubiese sido... Indirecto.

No, y no solamente si hubiese sido lanzada. because that implies a force. Exactly. It's not the same thing if something falls, it's not the same thing if my cell falls, that I throw it. Or imagine, if I push you, it's not the same thing if you stumble and fall.

The blow, how is it going to be? Because we are adding a vector of force. So, that is, let's say, from the criminalistic perspective, easily demonstrable if you apply your science well. But unfortunately, I insist, I'm not here to judge or say that some expert does not have the knowledge.

I think that this kind of thing happens when there is mediation. Because we all work with a lot of pressure. Of course, it is very important to mention that, because in this trial, we have seen constant pressure from a judge, pressure from the lawyers. I will even say it, because it is not the only case we have. There is the case of Mario Sainz, too.

There are several cases where science proves that whoever is in jail is innocent, but the media effect, where the mothers of the victims, the fathers of the victims, the families of the victims, with this absolute impotence of this tragedy that happened to them, is part of the pain,

at least, to reach justice in saying, it was you. It is part of human psychology. It is correct. Alcanzar justicia en decir, fuiste tú. Claro. Es parte de la psicología humana. Es correcto. Yo lo veo con la mamá de la víctima, en el caso de Mario Sainz, que es Victoria, este deseo absoluto de encontrar al culpable. Y eso fue lo primero que me llamó la atención de este caso, que es,

¿y qué pasa si no hay un culpable? Exactamente. ¿Cómo vives tu duelo? How do you live your pain? Saying what happened was an accident. Or what happened was not as I believe it. And if it is, I have to put myself in a different place of pain. And that, emotionally, when you lose a child, it must be very complicated.

And especially those who are mothers. I think that stories have two sides. Here, of course, we are talking about the fact that it is a shame that someone is being accused of a crime. And that definitely makes the tragedy worse, because an innocent person is being accused through the studies that we did,

but we are also aware that there is another side, which is the victim's family. And that, obviously, not finding comfort, of course, makes them investigate and they are in their right. I mean, the same law, of course, helps them do it. You will see it with this interview. Very likely there will be people who will criticize this very clearly.

Yes, totally. For the fact that it is difficult for difficult to put ourselves in that position. It's not that we are against Brenda's family. It's not about that. I explain it a lot with Mario Sáenz. It's not against one or in favor.

It's about understanding that we have to see the truth and justice from a different place. That's right. At some point in the process, from my criminological perspective, which I am too, I was doing the parity of the mother of the accused, Maria Elizabeth, with the mother of the victim. And I was saying, what a tragedy for both. It's a complicated position for both. I mean, definitely the mirror of both. I mean, I think that if at some point

they managed to look like that, it is a total tragedy for both of them. Because even Maria Elizabeth is alive, but her life will never be the same. Regardless of whether this ends clearly in justice, her life will not be the same. And of course, the life of the mother of the victim either. So I think that here, the mediation that was done from the beginning, the technical mistakes that were made, are the ones that Maria Elizabeth has in this situation. Could you tell us a little bit about those technical mistakes that you think were made wrong?

Of course. hicieron mal. Claro que sí. Que hoy justo, porque, dijo, no, no, no, quiero ser muy respetuosa con Brenda y con su familia, pero yo mido exactamente un centímetro más de lo que me vía Brenda. Okay.

A mí lo que me llamó la atención de este caso fue, es que es físicamente imposible. Claro, claro, si quieres acérc closer. It's interesting to see the height. We're talking about the reproduction that was done was identical, even in terms of the plan of support. Obviously, your sneakers give you a little more height. But, imagine, half a centimeter.

Exactly. And it's important to see the proportion between the two because I have a height very to Maria Elisabeth's. You are one centimeter shorter than me, and I am one centimeter taller. Exactly, that's correct. So, it's like...

We are more or less in the same proportion. So, let's imagine, because it should be maneuvers, what we call in criminal justice, a type of force against the victim's humanity. And obviously, if that happens, the victim defends herself. A series of injuries are referred to, which in no way correspond to injuries of force, of defense, and also omitting the injuries,

and we see it in black and white, the difference between the two. Imagine that I, at this moment, try to subdue you and throw you. It is materially impossible, because in addition, your physical superiority is greater than mine. I have more or less the same understanding as Maria Elizabeth. materialmente imposible porque además la superioridad física tuya es mayor que la mía yo tengo más o menos la misma comprensión también que maria elizabeth tú la conoces entonces yo tendría que so pesar la altura que si te das cuenta

es bastante porque no me no me llega a la cintura explicando que físicamente este corporalmente era materialmente to force. You were explaining that physically, that it was physically impossible for that maneuver to be initiated in which supposedly Maria Elizabeth would push the victim's body and obviously throw it away so that she would rush. One, two, if I do this maneuver, wherever you see it, if I'm trying to subdue her, necessarily the body would go?

Head. Head. Yes, exactly. The amount of injuries that would have originated? If the head fell first. Well, and it was widely demonstrated

that the victim fell on her feet. Okay. That's already proven in the experiment.

That's already proven.

Okay, those are not the mistakes that were made. No, no, no. That is very clear. So for that to have happened, it means that physically... She would have had to get up and stand up. Exactly. Now, let's imagine that criminal law allows us to make very minimal errors as a science, because there is always a minimal percentage of error and she did it. In addition to the number of injuries of fight, defense and force-g, that did not exist in the victim's body,

necessarily, when placing her, the injuries would have been produced exclusively at the moment in which she falls. However, not only the indications that I just referred to with respect to the injuries she presented with the elephant's leg, but before that, in the shoe, which clearly explains to us that once she manages to climb on the shoe, seconds before falling, there is a sensitive and, a un ladito del zapato, y que se ve lo que le llamamos nosotros principio de intercambio, que restos del material, de la pint friction, and then on the tennis sole, it is seen.

In fact, it is documented in the research folder by the official experts, in the photographs. Yes, it is like when something is rubbed and it looks like paint. I imagine that is what was left over the tennis. Exactly, it is correct.

And then, of course, that speaks that if there was a over from the tennis. Exactly. That's correct. And so, of course... So that speaks to the fact that if there was a push, that shouldn't be there. Totally. And the body, then, for obvious reasons, when it falls, it falls, I'm also going to say it colloquially so that the audience understands, close to the ground. Because we are also talking about a floor where there are more floors and we are going to find more slings. My pieces you have on contact my family. I said it'd be a cabaret. Kato. Maslenn. Oh, so we're a mint a cuando ya Kaya cuerpo pierde completamente la

verticalidad is cuando encuentran la planta la pata de lefante que desafortunadamente logical a John Olavi mas que fotografías pero en la fotografías que Perfectamente fijado que estaba muy cercana a la zona del barandal. Por eso es que ella primero cae y contacta. Inclusive, la caída fue ligeramente lateralizada. Ella tiene muchas lesiones de la zona izquierda.

Esa es algo como un giro en el... Claro, es la que contacta con la pata de elefante. Entonces, no hay una sola lesión que para nosotros son indicios o material sensible significativo que nos hable de una maniobra that for us are signs or sensitive and significant material that speaks to us of a completely different maneuver than that of precipitation, where there is surely a slip due to the contact that occurs between the two. Here in penitence, something that we look for a lot is to make the innocence visible in prison.

And that's why it's good that you already mentioned it, that they are two tragedies. I see it that way too. And there are many cases that we have seen in prison where it is not about us being on one side or the other. It is about understanding that there is injustice here and there is a double tragedy. That's right. And so we are starting from that and that's why we are handling this conversation with all due respect. What I want to ask you is, what elements are there today that have made that Maria Elizabeth spend time in prison and that today she is under house arrest?

Where were those mistakes in the investigation folder when it seemed so evident? Apart from the fact that the case was mediated and that when in Mexico cases are mediated, it is not who did it but who is going to pay for it. Where do you think are the mistakes that make it possible to classify the crime as a female? Unfortunately, the fact that there were injuries in the fight, defense, and force of the geography. That don't exist.

That don't exist. So how can they be based? Because an expert said so. And obviously a public prosecutor's office helps the experts in the area. Finally, he says, I'm not the expert. He knows, of course, about criminal law.

But there has to be a file, a dictum, signed by a consultant, and the consultant supports that. And how can there be a physical body of a victim por un perito y el perito sustenta eso. ¿Y cómo puede haber un cuerpo físico de una víctima donde un perito diga, aquí hay un moretón,

donde no hay un moretón?

No, porque no fue el caso. Aquí existieron lesiones que fueron perfectamente mal interpretadas. Y digo perfectamente porque me voy del otro lado, ¿no? Existieron lesiones porque, ya ves que en un principio So, there were injuries because, you see, at first I told you, he did not consider that there was an object that produced this type of injury. And even the expert dares to make reference that they are nail stigmas.

The nail stigmas are, for you to understand, are the shape of the nails. And obviously the nails are going to have a curved shape. If we see those injuries, they have a curved shape. There must even be a sequence of a curve. If we see the lesions, they have a curve. There must be a sequence of several curves. And that was an element. It is a reference that the… A scratch.

A scratch, exactly. I'm going to make it strong in my hand. It is marked. I'm going to make it strong on my hand. It marks. It marks. Of course. If I put more pressure on my tissue, it's going to cause an injury. Not just the mark. They found broken clothes, which happens in the rain, and he took it.

What he did was a summary of a series of mistakes and said,

this corresponds to a defense and defense injury. So the clothes were... She had marks on her body. On the backs of her hands, but you will say, well, and how can they make the difference of what is good and what is bad? Fortunately, there are photographs of necropsy, these are very well founded because there are also approaches that clearly can tell us what they are, even an intervention by a forensic doctor,

and the forensic doctor made a clear reference to the injury mechanics, that's what it's called. And what was the injury mechanics? All these types of injuries occurred in the fall, in contact with the different objects. Even in that, I imagine that also with that speed,

something that can rub you.

Yes, imagine the elephant plant has has a lot of little branches.

That could have been... Sure! Only someone who determines that it was the forceps nails could have been a consequence of the elephant's paw scratches.

And it's also important to consider... And the clothes could have also been broken. Yes, of course, and we also have to consider something. When a human being is in danger, they defend themselves. So let's not imagine that a body, when it falls, simply falls. Obviously, there is movement. There is movement to try to save themselves.

That is something that I do not document because we do not know exactly how it happened. But I do have the certainty, after 25 years of being in this branch, that the person defends themselves. If it is in the circumstances in which she was, that despite having alcohol in her branch, that the person defends himself. If it is in the circumstances in which she was, that despite having alcohol in her blood, she had to have defended herself. But there was nothing else to do.

That is why the body even rotates.

The body rotates and falls lateralized from the left flank. It is very normal, let's say, scientifically proven, that the body has rotated at the moment of impact. Yes, of course. In the course of impact.

Yes, slightly, but of course there is a slight rotation, but of course there is. And that is totally different from when the forcejeo occurs, the maneuver that we did from the beginning. Imagining that it could surpass this height, so exaggerated for me, which would be like you are representing Maria Elizabeth. In addition to that,

the contact that is necessarily given with the body and with this railing, because all this would produce injuries. So let's imagine this, when I push you, all this contact would produce injuries.

You would have a bruise. Of course, of course. I would have to pull you, all this contact. You would have a bruise. Of course, of course. I would have all kinds of indications that would determine this contact, because you would literally have to lift her. No, it's something physically impossible.

Exactly. It's materially impossible. In weight, the victim was superior. It's superior, that's what Maria Liza says. Not only was it a matter of height, but also of complexion. I don't know exactly the weight. And here's another factor, which is the distance between the wall and the balcony. It's correct.

Because it's not the same for me to take flight to attack you, to generate an impact, but for that I need space. It's correct. It's a narrow space. They are narrow corridors, and also... I think it's about 75...

Yes, less than two meters. And the reality is that it's someone I'm subjecting to. In a closed place. That closed place is necessarily a narrow place where if there is going to be a subjectjugation, there will be an opposition. And if we are talking about how narrow it is, there would have been more contact with the wall, with the Corrientes railing.

There would have been more evidence, even blood. In the body of the victim, but also of the defendant, in this case, María Elisa. The defendant, who was arrested a year after the events. That's right. That also speaks of a deficit. What happened during that year that they couldn't prove evidently? And then, the moment the case is made public, they see it as a yes.

In fact, the reference to this that I tell you about the struggle, defense and force, afortunadamente. Ven el como si. De hecho, justamente la referencia a esto que te cuento de la lucha de defensa y forcejeo se hizo después, porque inicialmente la fiscalía tenía su hipótesis distinta, ¿no? ¿Cuál era? Por respeto a la víctima, no hago referencia, no me gusta.

Pero creo que es importante.

En criminalística hay tres cosas. En criminalística determinamos suicidio, homicidio o accidente. Entonces definitivamente o era accidente o era suicidio. No nos consta y para mí seguimos estando en esas dos opciones porque homicidio no hay un solo elemento. Y tanto porque la fiscalía.

No fue nada más que a mí se me ocurrió. La fiscalía al principio determinó que no fue un homicidio. Entonces que por ende fue un accidente o un suicidio. The prosecution at the beginning determined that it wasn't a homicide, that it was an accident or a suicide, and suddenly a year later, when the case was mediated, they know that it was always a homicide, and we're going to make a show that they're two women, and that they're lesbians, and that it's a passionate topic,

because they love it in Mexico, because it's part of homophobia. Of course. We live it. because it's part of homophobia. Of course. I also referred to it in one of the hearings, which unfortunately was what contaminated the case. It was used, and I'm going to say it, a judge in my face asked me if I knew the inclination of the defendant.

As if that ever happened. That's right. And I thought, I mean, the videos exist, that I felt offended, not by me, I felt offended by the defendant and by the victim. As if that ever happened. And he was wearing a criminal device at that time. I wasn't... But it's been a long time. We saw it with Le Magistrate. That's right. The day he was murdered,

it was automatically passionate. Why? Because there were two people with... men, to put it in a way. I'm not saying I'm representing Le Magistrate as a man,

but with penises, both people. I'm not saying that I'm representing the magistrate as a man, but as a penis. So, automatically, the media is a passionate topic. And here, we don't realize, in Reincert we did a very interesting research on the access to justice for women. And women have five years more of sentence than a man for the same crime. The woman spends 50,000 pesos more than men in private defense. So there are still factors where the macho culture of our society...

And Mexico is at the top. You can tell a judge, judge from the laws, but you can't take away the judge's beliefs and where he comes from and how. It's not the same as a judge or a judge of 40 years to one of 70, or a man to a woman, or a man to a woman with a different sexual orientation. There are factors that exist, whether you like it or not,

those prejudices. And the one who asked you that is very difficult. Yes, if I take it into consideration. Because it shows it. It's correct. It shows it as homophobic.

It's correct. And we were in the presence of the parents. We were in the presence of both parents, of both families. I mean, it's not just an abuse of authority, but a lack of care. But it's a passionate topic. That's what the judge's comment was about. He asked if there was a prejudice that being two lesbians, this was passionate.

That's right. And that's gravisticism. Entonces, esto fue pasional. Es correcto, es correcto. Y eso es grave y si, si, si. Aquí está, te digo, está puesto como la receta perfecta para que todas las personas que viven del morbo, de ese morbo malo, porque digo, los criminalistas vivimos del morbo, pero desde la perspectiva científica maravillosa que ayuda a resolver este tipo de casos. Que es necesario. because we criminalists live from the morgue, but from the wonderful scientific perspective

that helps solve this type of case.

What is necessary. And what is necessary, but that the voice is not heard. And I have to say it because I know her well, from an innocent defendant like María Elizabeth, that when you talk to her, you understand and understand from the criminological perspective where she is located.

And a girl who even had to spend so much time in the prison, because even when I talked to her, she told us the amount of terrible things she had to live. And yet, one spoke with her and still had that hope that she was sure that everything was going to be fine Hablaba uno con ella y todavía tenía esa esperanza de que ella estaba segura de que todo iba a salir bien y se iba a demostrar su inocencia, que afortunadamente salió, pero que sigue el caso para ella, considerando que en la carpeta nos hablan claramente de qué fue lo que pasó. Si alguien pudiera verlo de la misma forma completamente fáctica que la vemos los peritos

y quitarnos todos los perjuicios. ¿Por qué? in the same way, completely factual, that we see in experts. And to get rid of all the harm. Why? Because at the end of the day,

there are two families that need to rest.

That need to rest and that need to live a duel from a different place. Here, what I also think is very important and I want to take back what you were saying, Catherine, is that we are analyzing only what supposedly happened on that floor.

Everything that happened at the time of the fall was not considered, from a personal point of view. Nothing was considered. And also, Jose talks little, and even when I interviewed Maria Elizabeth, she has this fear of talking about what her relationship was with Brenda. That's right. And she has nothing wrong with that.

I always tell her, this is victimizing. It has nothing to do with revictimizing. It has to do with the fact that we are talking about a person's life. If we could have Brenda with us, what better? Given that this is scientifically impossible. That's right. We are talking about an unfair person in prison.

And all the factors have to be considered. And if that implies talking about the toxic relationship, that they were no longer together, and that at that moment there was an exchange of messages where one wanted to talk and the other did not want to talk. That happens to all of us when we break up with an ex-girlfriend or an ex-boyfriend.

You don't have to satanize talking about something that leads us to the truth for the fact that there is a victim.

On the contrary.

And I take it, notice that I take it. por el hecho de que hay una víctima. Al contrario. Y yo lo tomo, fíjate que yo lo tomo. Nos pasó exactamente lo mismo cuando estuvimos en el interior del reclusorio del psicólogo y amigo María Elizabeth, que ella le tiene tanto respeto, tanto respeto a la víctima, que es una cosa que te lo está diciendo alguien que tiene 25 años de hablar con todo tipo de personas, inocentes y place for her. For her, the whole world sees her as an aggressive victim.

That's right.

For her, she's my ex-girlfriend, with whom I didn't want to be anymore. You think about your ex-partners, I think about my ex-partners, and that's very different from having a person who says, not because today they are accusing me of being the one to blame for killing her, it means that we didn't live what we lived together, I didn't love her the way I loved her, I don't love her the way I love her. This is important because I did see that in Maria Elizabeth.

I know you see me as the person who killed my ex-girlfriend, but no. Exactly. And, well, there could be a conflict between two people for which they decide that romantically they will no longer be together. That does not mean that the story is erased. That's correct.

That does not mean that.

No, even, as you sayices, no se ve el contexto, inclusive de la perspectiva criminológica, habría que ver un poco más atrás, donde la propia María Elizabeth le da un manejo muy empático, que para mi gusto no puso límites. Con respecto de no ver el antecedente, el previo a todos estos hechos, del momento inclusive en el que se rompe la relación, en el que alguien decide, ya no quiero seguir con esto. En particular, María Elizabeth fue empática de, digamos, no publicarlo, no se la lardeno. Fue cuidadosa inclusive. Tanto es que realmente había contacto,

digamos el contacto que se da a las compañeras de una carrera de universidad. Y no hubo como la mediatez o el escándalo, ¿no? Y eso desde mi perspectiva criminológica es no poner un límite. Pero también somos seres humanos y debe haber una empatía y una unión entre And that, from my criminological perspective, is not to set a limit. But we are also human beings and there must be empathy and a union between them that she respected. And that we saw it even, and that we see it now. And that this was not considered. Speaking of this issue of mediatism, which should not exist, I insist, for me,

from a criminalistic perspective, I cannot consider, I cannot consider in any way I can't consider anyone who treats themselves the same as any other person. But as you say, they immediately found the point of inflection, which was the inclination of each of them, and for them that is enough news. We have, unfortunately, a lesbian girl who killed her partner. That's what she did. It's very basic.

It's very basic. And it's also horrible, but unfortunately, we live in a society that sees it that way. No, and it's terrible. I think things have to be named after her. We don't want to victimize Brenda under any circumstances,

but let's start talking about those issues that suddenly be uncomfortable. You and I were talking about this off camera. Not because we're talking about a person who is no longer there, does that mean we're re-victimizing her or disrespecting her? We're simply trying to make it fair.

On the contrary, I think we're taking care of her, because any girl, any boy, can live in the same circumstances. You say that they don't repeat themselves, and if we silence them, they will repeat themselves. Because that has happened. And I think that we have to name two things. One, which are topics-impact crime,

it is important to talk about the pain and the need, many times, that there is, we have seen it in several cases, to have a person guilty for their own mental peace. We have seen it in several cases, from penance to work. You have seen it a lot too. Because it does imply for Brenda's family to rethink, if they didn't kill my daughter,

then what happened? And that what happened, within the three factors, is very painful.

Because if it was an accident, it's very painful. Both situations are painful. And they are painful processes. Because the result is exactly the same.

And the other is the factor of homophobia.

It's correct.

That has to be mentioned and the media, the responsibility that there is. It's correct. For example, if you are a judge who is perhaps a little sexist and a little bit homophobic, maybe you're not the most suitable person to take a case of two people with sexual orientation within the LGBT community. And we also have to say, hey, no, we can't allow

that automatically because they're two women who have a romantic relationship, we start from the fact that it was a forced marriage.

That's correct. We have this problem.

Right now that you mentioned the judge, there is an important point that I would like to mention and that is the issue of gender perspective. Yes. Where the issue is being handled with a gender perspective for the victim.

Of course.

But the accused, of course, also deserves to be. It is also part of the mentality, which is that we cannot give that right to the alleged accused because she is the aggressor, she is the femicide. It is correct. because she is the aggressor, she is the femicide, so how are we going to talk about gender with her? But those are the taboos that our criminal justice system has. And what ends up happening a lot,

you were talking about how an expert does a perhaps erroneous expert-ing, when there are media involved, particularly… Because there is pressure. Because there is pressure. Of course. It's the pressure. It's not that he doesn't know. Without justifying it, because in the end he has to know what his job is.

But it is true that it is not worked the same way.

It is not worked the same way.

And less when they tell you, here yes and Bruno, where their little girl is missing. And you see the whole file, and everything is based on how to blame them,

never on finding her.

That's correct.

She's still missing, they're not doing anything to find her. All the media focus is on why you are the ones who disappeared. And it's like, how do we get lost when the media... There is a victimological explanation for that.

You have a reason to continue living tied to the person who is no longer there. That is a justification and it is the way in which I am still tied to the victim, even very valid, very valid, because they live it as such. In other words, in many cases, even also... I'm still fighting for her.

Of course.

She is no longer there, but I, as her mother, I'm still fighting for her.

And I'm going to show, even the last consequences. And the person not only believes it, lives it, understands it, and even materializes it as if it were true. What an interesting topic, because we see it, I can think of several, for example, mothers who were victims of femicide, who were already given justice,ically speaking. From a legal point of view, the aggressors are already in prison. There are times when the aggressors are minors, so the sentence is four or five years. For example, justice, from where there can be justice with a tragedy like a femicide,

it has already been done, in quotation marks, but they are still in the fight of, I want justice. Why? Because the next step is the pain of introspection. And it's the most painful moment, because there's nothing else to do. What's next? And don't feel satiated. If you don't work for it, if you don't have a support group, your family circle, your circle of friends,

if there's no support group, there are people who don't come out.

You know where you see a lot with the missing mothers? Of course. tu circulo de amistades. Si no hay un grupo de apoyo, hay gente que no sale. Sabes donde se ve mucho también con las madres desaparecidas. Claro.

Cuando encuentran algún resto de su propio familiar, siguen en la lucha, y me encanta porque es un tema de solidaridad,

donde siguen en la lucha encontrando restos de sus compañeras.

Claro.

Pero muchas veces, si nos metemos desde el punto de vista victimológico, from a victim's point of view, is that you haven't entered the stage of your pain, because to keep fighting to find remains makes you keep fighting for your son. Of course, I can give you a personal case. I'm a criminal, because I'm of Colombian origin, I'm Mexican, but I was the victim of the worst violence you can live,

which is to have your husband killed. It's not like a son, but it was horrible. And I couldn't do that duel. And I focused so much on finding the culprits that in the end I ended up being threatened and I had to leave my country. But since I didn't know what to do next, is Emotionally, your struggle, which led to you being threatened,

is correct. You put it in, today, being one of the most important experts, having a school of experts, being a doctor.

Yes, thank God. It has been a blessing. But in the end, also...

Of a tragedy. Of a tragedy. How it ended, then, if it can be released, it is terribly bad what is happening to the victim's family. I am convinced that it is something that is difficult to repair, but unfortunately, we also have to think that there is another family that is living in the circumstances.

It cannot be the life of another person. And we have seen it in many cases. We see it in the case of Mario Sainz, in the case of Wendy de Brun, we see it in the case of Maria Elizabeth. We cannot continue to allow the media to have such an impact on justice.

And it's not the media's fault, it's the fault of how they act in justice, generating the tragedy that, for me, is one of the biggest in Mexico, which is innocence in prison. Catherine, thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for giving us your knowledge, your time.

Thank you for the invitation. And hopefully, hopefully soon this case will be a case that we can achieve, that justice is done. That justice is done. Really.

Even so that the two families can rest.

100%.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Yes. Yes. to the good and the bad. There was one time when I was extorted. And I remember going out with my parents on that visit, and I told them they taught me many things, but they did not teach me to deal with these people. And that was part of the learning. There are people who have their interests, who somehow seek to be okay on the other side of the world.

I feel like you have in a very alert mode of survival. I don't know, for example, what you value the most has reached a point. Obviously, it's your stability, your comfort, but it's something that can be taken away from you at any time. Something like a routine that you had acquired, I mean, it's taken away, right? A space that they have assigned to you, they take it away from you.

I mean, there's no security at all. So you have to be very alert. Obviously, it's very common for things to get stolen, lost, you have to evaluate if it's worth recovering it. Obviously there are many who are very innocent, who really just didn't know or didn't have the way to defend themselves. So they are there.

And many people who didn't do things, accepted the guilt to try to be there as little time as possible because she needed to leave early to be with her family, to be... to resume her life. And I also think that, for example, this... to try to...

to safeguard your integrity, your comfort, your stability, it was easy then for people to try to extort you. Yes, because of the normalcy. Yes. But I mean, you learn, you learn, I mean, I learned a lot. Also,

I told my parents that we all have sad stories. All of us. What takes us to this place, whether we have done it or not, have been hard lives. So I learned a lot from the people who trusted me and told me their stories. There are people who also protected me, who took care of me.

People with whom I shared with. So, I also learned, they taught me to knit. I took a course in... what was it? Clay. And I went to school, to the most peaceful in the place. There was a phrase that they always said in there, that it is not the place, it is the people. So sometimes it was tedious because of the environment. How is it that today you are free? How is your legal situation at the moment?

Well, of all the peripeties that my parents went through, who have supported me in all this, there were some things that I think we made mistakes and there were others that we hit hard. There were some things that I think we were wrong about, and there were others that we hit on. One of them was that we decided to put,

from the very beginning, a shield against the link to the process. Because from the beginning, there were these shortcomings to the due process. So, I put that shield in, but throughout my whole process, processo. Entonces se metió ese amparo was approved in my favor. But we decided to put a revision of this amparo to see if we could achieve a little more. and obviously in the best of cases, the lack of due process and the background of the problem,

that is, to see if it is possible for it to end. So right now we are waiting for that. At that time we had also put a barrier against the cautious media. Obviously, because of the crime I was accused of, it's a crime that closes many doors. We really didn't expect it to be modified, but we wanted to try. And using some elements of the audience,

we were able to grant the change of the cautious measure. So, it took the judge a while. I had already said that yes, that it was going to be changed to a restraining order, but I was still in custody for two months, until the end of May this year, when they finally put me on the bracelet and I'm here. I want to understand how they typify femicide.

What evidence, what evidence, what is there to determine that you are a woman who hates another woman enough to kill her? A relationship of trust and that by the very act of killing her, this is already violence, so those two elements. Yes, but in any that's already violence. So, those two elements. But in any homicide there is violence. Those are the elements. There is no other thing. I mean, it's just that I knew her

and because she died, it was violent, so... What proof do you have against her? Well, my statement and this peritage. And that these witnesses who were never there are taken into consideration, but who suddenly began to have a very big weight.

And false witnesses who the prosecution loves. They love to be witnesses because they know they have strength. That's all. That's really all. How do you defend yourself, Maria, from something you didn't do? I think you start by being clear about who you are and what you are not, and what you do and what you don't do. I feel that when I just arrived and they started telling me,

you're a murderer, and not only that, you hate women and you murder women.

What?

I mean, in this case, throughout my life, I think my strongest and closest ties have been with women. My mom, my friends, my aunts. And for them to tell me I'm a danger to women? mi mamá, mis amigas, mis tías, y que me digan que soy un peligro para las mujeres. Entonces siento que tienes que estar seguro como de quién tú eres y qué no eres, y que no te quieran como tratar de convencer

de algo que no eres. Y segundo, es esto también, bueno, tal vez hay gente que está mucho más familiarizada And second, there are people who are more familiar with the legal environment, but I think that even if you are, there are many legal hurdles that prevent you from defending yourself adequately. My family and I were not involved in all of this. We had to learn. There are people who are willing to take the burden of your pain to say, I'm going to help you. In the end, they have their own interests or agreements.

They have their own agenda. And they are not necessarily looking for your well-being or to really help you. And we also had to learn it. Also, for example, again, I feel that because of the type of crime, that closes many doors at the level, por ejemplo, en medios públicos. No toda la gente está dispuesta a escucharte.

Es un tema ahorita muy controversial, muy fuerte, que obviamente tiene que ser investigado cuando es necesario, pero pues aquí fue impuesto y eso hizo que no mucha gente nos quisiera but here it was imposed and that made not many people want to listen to us or see beyond. Really, in all this time that I have been in this, only three people, and I include you, have wanted to listen, have wanted to see, and not only what I have to say, but there are scientific evidence. Yes, the truth is

it was impossible for it to fall like that because of how it fell. The absence too. Because also the absence of evidence, that also counts.

That they tell you that you scratched it because it has stone injuries, but that there is no scientific support behind it that determines that, and that they want to use that as proof, that is an act of corruption. It seems that the system has lost all kind of humanity and professionalism in the cases it has. What is the negative and positive outlook you ves para Eli, conociendo la Fiscalía?

Yo lo que creo es que el día de hoy, y esto lo digo con mucha prudencia, es que la fuerza que gracias a Dios han tomado los colectivos y que han tomado, sobre todo estos delitos de género, muchas veces pueden, especially these gender crimes, many times they can, that without a doubt, this weight that they have today is very positive in general, in certain degrees it can be, in certain cases, it can be a double-edged sword.

And I believe that the political pressure that the case of Elip has had to try to find a culprit or to fabricate a culprit in this case, has been very harmful for this matter. And here justice has to be extremely impartial to the political pressures that the prosecution could have or could have had in this case, and dictate a self-denial.

That is the logical, it is the correct, it is the way it has to proceed. There are no elements to bind, period. If this self-denial is disavowed. the way it has to proceed. There are no elements to link. Period. That is, if this self-linking is disavowed. If it is not disavowed from the trial, it will have to continue and the judge of the case will have to reach this same conclusion, which is basically that the which was linked, lacks a scientifically credible basis. I do think it is very important to leave only one point marked. If the prosecution had had elements with the testimony of Eli,

at that moment, they would have to see the quality. It's not a case where they had some major elements. When you say, hey, let's see, the police can do it at that moment. And the statement at that moment, without any force,

was enough to take you to the Santa Marta, I mean, to Barrientos. It's not necessary, I mean, at that moment, the MPTD would have Barrientos. It's not necessary. At that moment, the MPTD would have said, of course, this woman is guilty.

Because of what she declared.

Because of what she declared.

And rather, they let her go. And months later, they returned for her when there was already a political social pressure.

And of the victim's evidence, right? Yes. There is no evidence that there was an aggressive behavior from Eli to Brenda.

Yes, no, no, there is no evidence that they were getting along badly, that they were violent.

That there was a violent relationship. They were cutting each other like any couple or boyfriend. I'm not gonna call here Parajan, oh yes, oh, no, yes, but if we choose in this use can you not conduct a de Brenda? Que pose erratic akela puya Rado is The act of malcuiso por video del cual ella perdió la vida que no es necesariamente un su video Puede ser nada más que está tratando de llamarle la atención

que fue Ilan lo que llevo digamos o que, o qué elementos hay, poniéndonos en los zapatos, digamos, de la familia o de quienes han querido encrucijar a Eli como una homicida, como una asesina de su novia o de su exnovia en ese momento? ¿Por qué llevarlo ahí? ¿Por qué no...? Vaya, ¿en dónde vieron una oportunidad para decir, ella lo mató?

Yo creo que es natural, es humana. Qué chistoso, porque hoy estaba pensando acerca del conflicto, de cómo se van acomodando en el conflicto humano las partes, cómo se va desahogando el mismo pleito. I think it's very human that a person feels that there has to be an external culprit in a loss. One suffers a loss and says, who is going to pay me? What happened here? de dice quien me la va a pagar no que paso aquí cuando la realidad en muchos de estos casos que vemos y no es que no se yo empático soy su de o tal empático

soy que hoy soy el presidente de la barra de la fundación de la barra no que estoy si si eres personas más empáticas que yo conozco pero una parte de la vida una parte fundamental de las pérdidas es acomodar las cosas en su lugar se But a fundamental part of life, a fundamental part of loss, is to accommodate things in their place.

Those are the processes of mourning. I was talking about it today in a podcast that I was interviewed about divorces. And you know a lot about this, how many couples are getting divorced today, and because they're afraid to accept the end of their relationship, because of the natural pain of sadness that comes,

they cling to the conflict. And they even end up in the middle, when it's not really a conflict as such, but they're just having a hard time letting go of each other in a healthy and non y no conflictiva, porque el conflicto te lleva a no pensar en el dolor.

De alguna manera, con las víctimas, por ejemplo, hay muchas mamás de feminicidio que se mantienen en la lucha, que se mantienen en la protesta, que se mantienen en alzar la voz para con when if you start to see legally speaking, the case is resolved. The aggressors are already in jail, justice has already been done,

within what can be done justice.

Activism is a continuity of life.

Of life, of course.

It is a reason to live.

And accepting, and when I was interviewing him, I thought, of course, being Brenda's parents and saying, maybe there's a possibility that this wasn't a homicide, that this was an accident, or that because of a tantrum,

or because of a...

An act of misjudgment.

An act of misjudgment, or because of wanting to get draw attention or whatever,

things happened in a different way, where maybe there is no guilty person in prison. Well, if we look at the issue from the previous indications, there is no message that I have knowledge of, of violence from Eli to Brenda. There is none. There is no previous indication that they had a conflictive relationship, de violencia de Eli a Brenda. No existe ningún indicio previo de que hayan tenido una relación conflictiva de violencia física, pero lo que sí hay es una serie de pruebas donde vemos, primero que vamos a partir de la base, que hay un acervo de datos psiquiátricos que ya sufría the psychiatric of

psychiatric of

psychiatric

of psychiatric of psychiatric of psychiatric

of psychiatric There are messages from Brenda to a friend who says that she is very hurt by what happened, which is normal. All of us who have been 24 years old know that cutting is painful. It is painful in a disproportionate way. And on the other hand, there are messages to Ellie herself that say, hey, she wasn't happy.

And there are also witnesses of that day's party, of that day's meeting, where they saw that Brenda was insistent with...

Well, she had erratic behavior, because what happened... If we are going to take for the sake of Eli's defense, the narrative of everyone else, erratic behavior gives an explanation to what happened, la defensa de Eli. La narrativa de todos los demás, la conducta narrativa da una explicación a lo que sucedió. Que es que Eli se puso del otro lado del barandal.

Perdón, que Brenda se puso del otro lado del barandal. Claro. Voy a repetir, que Brenda se puso del otro lado del barandal. ¿Con qué fin? Con el fin de llamar la atención, de hacer o de poner su vida en peligro, o de demostrar que su vida no tenía sentido sin él.

O sea, tal vez era nada más un gesto que le costó la vida porque perdió el equilibrio y se cayó. Pero esa historia tiene mucha más congruencia a la historia de que se pelearon.

Y que la proyectó y que se la lanzo donde pericialmente no hace sentido

algo. No nomas pericialmente, sino no hay una historia de Eli como una violentadora, porque todos los que vemos asuntos de violencia general sabemos que el violentador, sí, y el violentador no nace un día. Pero me gustaría decir nada más una última cosa. En el conflicto humano, que yo soy, como buen abogado, yo no soy un apasionado del conflicto. Yo soy un apasionado de la resolución del conflicto.

A mí no me gusta el pleito. Me gusta arreglar los pleitos. En todos los pleitos, en problems, in all the conflict resolution, there is a part where the parts have to understand where they are standing. Where am I standing? And there are things that are truths and there are things that are opinions.

This is a matter where the data should clarify certain truths. And what is the truth? That Eileen could not have projected Brenda on the other side of the railing. That is a difficult truth, but it is not a difficult truth for a judge. A judge must be able to see this clearly.

When, peritially, and science is telling you

that it is physically impossible,

enough.

Enough. There is no way.

With that, enough. And that is why it is a matter that interests me, que es físicamente imposible. Enough. Enough. No hay manera. Con eso es suficiente. Y por eso es un asunto que me interesa, porque es un asunto donde tenemos a una persona que todo lo que hay a nuestro alcance nos demuestra que es inocente.

Aparte es un caso muy interesante porque no es un hombre contra una mujer. Y en un México como hoy, si this had been the other way around, the man has the strength almost to carry her and turn her around, the man has the strength to project her, the man is guilty because the man is violent. But here it's an interesting conflict because it's a love relationship between two women.

Suicidalist.

So, even at a social and political level, when you want to blame someone, you are blaming another woman. So, it opens up the possibility of having a different conversation, like the one we are having right now, that if this had been a man and a woman, we would not be having it. That's right.

And that's great.

Incredible, but true.

Ilan, thank you.

Thank you for the explanation.

Why do you think they are going so hard on you, with the femicide? They are asking for the maximum penalty, right? Why do you think this is happening? I feel like it can be two things. ¿Cómo crees que esté pasando esto? Siento que pueden ser dos cosas. Uno, sí entiendo que el contexto de nuestro país hace que la muerte de una mujer muchas veces tenga que ser principalmente estudiada como un feminicidio. Pero aquí creo que hay otro elemento, que es como cierta viol a certain violence of gender, but towards me. Like this story of two women, they had a relationship, she killed her for sex, for whatever.

In Mexico they love it. like, say lose power. but there are alternatives that can be topics that have to do with a person's mental health. When the media take that narrative, they don't... What happens if the narrative were in effect that Brenda jumped? Well, I still question it. I don't know... what benefit is obtained from inventing this story. I mean...

How much are they asking for the repair of the bathroom? At the end, only approximately 5 million. They had proposed us more. How much? 25 million. No. I'm looking for the answer. I hope to get it soon. But I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I can do it.

I don't know if I can do it.

I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I can do it. No, I'm looking for the answer, I hope to have it soon. For the university or for the authorities? For both. Both for the authorities, waiting for the answer of this review of the protection, and for my university, which is aware of this issue.

I hope they don't deprive you of the right to continue studying. Well, no, especially considering that right now there are no elements, but well, it's something that...

Even if they did, everyone has the right to study.

Even if you were guilty, you have the right to study. You didn't know. Yes. Yes, and a degree, and your first or second year of high school. Everything you need, you have the right to. They are punishing you, they are...

...recommitting a crime, in this case, that you didn't commit, but they can't deprive you of access. Only universities do it, because of their reputation. Right now you have your arm out, or you have it in your leg. How does it work?

You can't leave this house, or how? No, I have a transit zone, which is here area next door. I have to let them know, for example, because I also have to sign, so I have to let them know every month when I'm going to sign. If, for example, the battery of the bracelet is running out,

either I monitor it, or I go to my cell phone and it lets notify me or the bracelet itself vibrates. I have to charge it daily. That's how it works.

How crazy! When will you know?

I don't know.

What I learned from all this is that you need a lot of patience, a lot of time because nothing happens the way want or how you want. So I've had to be very patient and I think I'm the same. I have to be patient, but I feel that eventually... ...it will be achieved. I hope so, because there is evidence. It's not just a blind faith that I have.

But... Well, I'm sure, I'm sure that... ...I'm innocent. So... I'm going to keep going in all this. Do you trust the authorities authorities will do their job?

I hope so, but I can't say for sure. If Bren were still alive, where would you put her? I would like to say that this problem I am living is not because of what she did. This has to do with her family and what they expect and want. So, for me,

she didn't do anything to me. It's something I can't understand how she felt, but... But it's not to blame for this. So, it is rather us who stay, what we have been deciding to do, in this case her family. It is to look for a life sentence.

Are there any psychiatric background in Brenda? Something that could determine that it wasn't a homicide or a femicide and justify another version, Maria? Yes, both from knowing her, from the things I saw, but also, they hid it from us. And then we found out that there is a record from a psychiatric institution that had an attempt to f***.

But I think that's an element that the authorities are the ones who have to overweigh because, again, it's not about using who was in my favor. I would actually like to respect who she was, what happened, because it has also been very hard for me. Of course. It's amazing how we have to take care of this process.

I've seen a lot of demonstrations out there, headed by Brenda's mother. I think even a judge was called corrupt for the fact that you are here today, which I think is an absolute absurdity. And let's take care of the narrative.

I thank you have done it, that you are taking care of Brenda as a person who may be a victim of mental health, or maybe, but is a victim of a situation that got out of control, right? That maybe she didn't see what could happen

when she acted the way she did. And I think that can't deprive you of telling your story, what you lived. But always taking care of this part. I thank you for telling your version, with all the care you did,

to a woman who is no longer there. And a woman with whom you had a sentimental relationship. And a woman with whom you had a sentimental relationship and a woman to whom you loved a lot at that moment. Maria, how hard the work I have been doing and the way I have gotten into the criminal justice system, it's incredible to see how the criminal justice system has often lost humanity

in being able to incriminate people who didn't commit. You said it, there are many innocent people in prison. You lived it. You saw it for a year and eight months that you were deprived of your freedom. How unfair the system is sometimes. So, just as you expect the authorities to do their job with transparency, with honor and with humanity, so do I.

And I wish you that you will soon obtain your freedom, that they will soon take off that bracelet and that we will achieve, that Brenda's family will be able to live the pain they have to live in the face of a tragedy like this. Because I can't imagine the pain of them as a family

having to bury their daughter. having to bury their daughter.

Thank you Maria for your confidence and for trusting me to tell your version.