President of France on Trump, India, Modi, Tech & Future | H.E. Emmanuel Macron | FO473 Raj Shamani

France invented a lot of early technologies in the world. But today if you look at the scenario, the largest technology companies in the world are either American or Chinese. Many of them are led by Indian origin CEOs. Where did France lack?

I think the missing point is first, scale. Not just for the French, but for all the Europeans. Second, capital. And the third point, we have to find more appetite for risk.

France has been an all-weather friend for India.

The question is no longer whether India innovates. The question is who will innovate with India? And France is uniquely answered.

Jai Ho!

Do you think this is going to be an example for the world that now the new world order is about multi-polarity? Do you think India and France are setting an example?

French President Emmanuel Macron is the chief guest.

French President Emmanuel Macron has been invited as the chief guest at a public gathering.

We have developed over the past few years a series of cooperation and partnerships in different sectors with your country. I really believe that when we team up, we deliver. Second, we don't want to be dependent on one of the two big powers. We want to have good relations with the US, China.

We have different relationships, by the way, with both of them, between India and France. And we are supporters of this approach.

India leapfrogged in technology. Our Aadhaar, UPI, TG Locker, things like this be created and got so many people in the system. If you have to bet on one technology for France, which will be your moonshot for 2035.

Quantum computer would be where we can take the lead and have a leadership.

Quantum computer.

Quantum technology.

What on earth is a quantum computer?

Whichever nation first develops a practical quantum computer will have a tremendous advantage.

Quantum supremacy.

Is the work happening in the back end?

Yeah, I think so, because we have unique mathematicians, new capacities, and a lot of very performing startups and labs.

I saw that you announced about 109 billion euros one year ago for the AI infrastructure, for the technology to lead it forward. But here's a question. Out of that, 50 billion euros is coming from UAE. So money is foreign funded, infrastructure is going to be largely owned by UAE, the technology and intelligence is coming from America and China. What's going to be sovereign about this when it's actually collaboration of the world not just Europe. If some founder is watching this or a student who's 22 year old is watching this, they want to come to France, then what does France offer which today a US and UK doesn't offer for the young startup founders or the people who want to build for the future? A unique ecosystem.

First, I want to convey the message to your students, Indian students. If you come to France, you can get access to the best quality universities and high schools. Second, the language is clearly English. And I really believe that France provides a unique mix of large companies, a lot of institutions and at the same time, the most vibrant startups and innovation ecosystem in Europe.

Donald Trump shared your private messages. His private message meant for diplomacy has exploded into a public political storm. He threatened to put 200% tariff on you. You've called his administration anti-Europe. Does this convey something about American leadership today? Should the world be scared?

I really believe that respect is part of the leadership. You can share ideas or not, you can disagree, but you have to do it in a respectful way. Within democracies as well, this is why I've always been extremely committed to fight against any sort of hatred, speech or violence in our societies because when you have democracy, you have the right to change your leadership, you decide who will take the law and pass the law on your behalf.

So no need to be violent and disrespectful. Please subscribe to our channel. It's free and it takes only one second because the more you subscribe, the more of a chances get to get the kind of guests which we have today on our show. Our today's guest is President of French Republic, Emmanuel Macron. It's his first ever podcast in the world. This was the first time it's happening on a show on figuring out. We have spoken about India and France relationship. We have spoken about his relationship

with America, his relationship with world leaders. We've spoken about what is Europe trying to do differently? What does it mean for India? How is he making sure that India not only becomes a trade partner, but a strategic partner in the world which is heading towards multipolarity. How do we challenge the global world order? And do we even challenge or no?

All these questions have been answered by the French president in today's podcast. Beyond the honor, we see this as a responsibility. Because when someone like President Macron sits down with us, it's an opportunity to talk about India, what we are getting right, where we are heading and what the world needs to understand about India, about us right now, so that we can show the world where India stands and what are we doing and get the president and global leaders perspective

on it as well. So, thank you so much for being part of this journey and for the audio experience of this podcast, please follow us on Spotify. Thank you so much for doing this and agreeing to do your first podcast with us. It's a pleasure.

This is mine. Thank you for being here. Thank you. I'm happy to be in Mumbai with you.

Tell me, before we start actually, for 0.01% people who don't know who you are and they're watching you for the first time, they have no clue. What would you tell them about yourself in next 30 seconds? Who you are and what do you do?

I'm a French guy here in Mumbai because I am invited by your prime minister and happy to be here by the way and involved in a very peculiar job and for the past few years and full of appetite and enthusiasm, especially for other culture.

Lovely. And you're also an enthusiast. I saw that yesterday that you are the guy who loves breaking protocol and running around the street to jog, right?

Exactly. We jogged yesterday morning.

Yeah. How was that experience?

Wonderful. It was a little bit hectic because of, I mean, all the traffic in the city, but it was great. And I mean, it was fun, first to exercise and second to have the interactions without too much security. You always have a little bit security, but when it's, I would say, unexpected and not organized, you can indeed break the protocol. So early in the morning, I went to jog and later in the evening, I went to the station to as well see your beautiful architecture

and not just architecture architecture but the city.

Yeah, okay let's dive into the technology part because I love what you're doing these days I went through so many of your speeches and the reason that you're here. You know I was reading a lot of history and I found out that France invented a lot of early technologies in the world. But today, if you look at the scenario, the largest technology companies in the world are either American or Chinese.

Many of them are led by Indian origin CEOs. What do you think? Where did France lack? Like what happened? Is it the culture? Is it the culture? Is it the taxes? Or is it something about the way Europe thinks about

failure and risk?

A mix of that probably. But you're right to say that we've had a lot of great researchers, scientists, we invented a lot of a lot of big innovation, Even if science is a global approach and cooperation between the academics and researchers all over the world is what makes sense and not just one country.

But we do have this culture of research, invention, entrepreneurship as well. As always, remind people that entrepreneur is a French word. And it was taken by the English language, but entrepreneur is a French, French word. And, and, and we we are still extremely active. If you take in Europe, probably

the two main ecosystem in terms of innovation, startups, AI, quantum, are France and UK, largely heard of the others. And, and if you take math and a lot of a lot of disciplines, we are still in very in a very good position. But it's true that when you when you look at the tech sector, it's largely driven by the US. I mean, this big seven companies, and, and, and the Chinese companies, why?

First, you have a question of scale. I really believe that Europe is the right approach. And still in the digital sector, but in a lot of sectors, we are too much fragmented. So I think the missing point is first, scale. Not just for the French, but for all the Europeans. So we have to finalize, to strengthen our single market, to be sure that your domestic market is a 450 million

inhabitants market, meaning Europe and not just France. Second, capital. In the US, you have a lot of capital, a lot of deep pockets, so they invest a lot of money. And the paradox is that in Europe, you have a lot of savings, much more than in the US,

but the saving is not properly invested because of too much, I mean, too many regulations in the bank and insurance sector and the structure of our financing system, which is unadapted to the tech industry because we are, the savings are largely channeled towards the bond markets or they go outside Europe to search profitability. And the third point, you mentioned it and I fully agree

with you is probably we have to find more appetite for risk. More appetite for risk. You should be much more risk taker. So scale, money and risk-taking mindset. So you sort of are addressing these things in multiple of your speeches and conversations.

I saw that you announced about 109 billion euros.

One year ago.

One year ago for the AI infrastructure, for the technology to lead it forward. Right. But here's a question that you talk about scale, you talk about risk and you talk about investments. Out of that almost a hundred billion euros, 50 billion euros coming from UAE. Right.

Then so money is foreign funded. Infrastructure is going to be largely owned by UAE, the technology and intelligence is coming from America and China. And you're talking about Europe and building sovereign Europe AI. What's going to be sovereign about this when it's just, it's actually collaboration of the world, not just Europe?

This is a very good question. In fact, one year ago, we announced this 109 billion euro investment, which is a very good question. In fact, one year ago, we we announced is 109 billion euro investment, which which is a big bunch of money, and we are deploying it by the way, because more than 60% is already deployed and, and we plugged a lot of sites. It's it's in order to build data centers. You're right, we speak about UAE US projects. Why?

Because the technology is largely in the US. But the data center, which will be deployed in France will be used as well by our own players. If you don't have the computing capacities, you cannot deploy. And we are we are more cash today in the Gulf and the technology for data centers in the US. But what we want to do is not to buy the solution. When we when you want to be more sovereign, more independent,

you want to transfer technologies and attract foreign direct investment. This is exactly what we are doing. I created eight years ago an event called Choose France where a lot of Indian players come every year. And, and this event, plus all the reforms we implemented, made France number one in terms of attractiveness during the past six years.

Yeah.

And, and this is good. What we, what, what we, what you mentioned, I mean, this AI data centers and all these investments are good for the European sovereignty. Why? They are located in my country. Second, they could be used by my by my players. So it will improve my ecosystem. So that will transfer a lot of this technologies. And fourth, it's I have the guarantees that these solutions are compliant with the European regulation. What's your what's what's the

alternative to that? As I don't have the technology and know the cash, it's not to make the technology and now the cash. It's not to make this investment and to buy elsewhere. If you buy just solutions, you buy solutions and you provide your data without any protection for your data and without any tech transfer.

So I think it's a much better solution. The winner takes all in this market. And the big winners were these US hyperscalers. So you have to work with them, but to encourage and force sometimes them to comply with your markets.

And in parallel, you have to accelerate the deployment of your own solutions. If you take LLMs, we have Mistral AI, which is probably, I mean, which is definitely the, I mean, which is definitely the best European player and a clear alternative of the US LLMs. So this is what we are doing.

Interesting. So one more thing you would need in this is attracting talent, attracting founders from all around the world, right? And attracting students at the same time. Right now there are about 9300 students from India and France. You want them to go to 30,000, right? So every founder who's watching this, you have announced F Station in France, made it

a big startup world for everyone. So if some founder is watching this or a student who's 22 year old is watching this, they want to come to France. Then what does France offer, which today a US and UK doesn't offer for the young startup founders or the people who want to build for the future?

A unique ecosystem. First, I want to convey the message to your students, Indian students. If you come to France, you can get access to the best quality universities and high schools from Poly Technique to Paris-Orbonne, from Ecole Normale Supérieure to a

lot of engineering schools. Second, the language is clearly is English. So because I know that a lot of sometimes, ideas reçues are the fact that you will be taught in French, which is totally wrong. So you have the opportunity to have the obviously all these years in the in the English language, but you get access as well to the diversity of the language,

which is very important. And when you are in the end, you know that, given the number of official language and this diversity is a source of not just energy, but creativity, but you will have the best in class, higher schools, English spoken professors and research, access to good ecosystems.

And I really believe that France provides the unique mix of a mature economy with a lot of large companies, a lot of institutions. And at the same time, it's a more vibrant, the most vibrant startups innovation ecosystem in Europe. And third, it's it's clearly a vibrant place in terms of creativity,

culture. And, and I think it's very important because when you speak about innovation, never forget the place of culture, art, cinema, and so on. And, and Francis, and this is one of the the link we have with India. We are extremely strong in creative and cultural industries. And I think this is a very important point and not to forget to mention fashion.

And this is a unique nexus where you have gastronomy, fashion, creativity, cinema, tech, entrepreneurship, and the old institutions, I would say, in the same place. And this is a unique occasion. And France is a natural entry point to the rest of Europe, and continental Europe. But this mix of, I would say, assets is quite unique. You know, French people and France in general definitely has something which we call here is taste.

That taste is very, very, like the moment you talk to a French person, the way they think about arts and culture and their ability to judge fine things in life is amazing. That's something to be appreciated or I'm sure the world appreciates it already. Thank you for mentioning it. But the French taste indeed is this capacity of mixing a lot of not just competences but art,

you know, innovation and life in general. And this is the approach to say that life is something very special, being together is something very special, sharing moments and experiences is something very special. And in this world, given the current environment,

never forget that the most important thing is to share unique moments and experience.

True. True. Tell me apart from culture, arts, taste, okay, we talking about technology, India leapfrogged in technology when it comes to DPI, our Aadhaar, UPI, TG Locker, things like this we created and escaped the 10 years of financial exclusion and actually now built, got so many people in the system. If you have to bet on one technology for France, which will be your moonshot for 2035, which

technology would you bet on that the France will lead and dominate the world?

First, let me let me say how right you are when you mentioned India. I mean, your country is super impressive in terms of indeed leapfrogging but educating people and training people. I mean, today, in India, you train every year, more engineers than in us in Europe together. Yeah, so it's I mean, it's such a resource. It's unique, too. And it means a lot of tenants, a lot of people. And

on top of that, you have your leapfrog in terms of education and competences. And you you have the same appetite of an emerging big emerging countries. And you're right to mention payment system and UPI. And I'm obsessed by that because by the way, a lot of people are super dependent on US solutions on payment.

I mean, it happens that in France, we do have our own solution as well with the carte bleue system. But it's UPI reached such a scale in such a few years that it's very impressive. It's very hard to say what the moonshot will be

because you never know. And especially as a president, it's very hard to say it will be this one as a moonshot because it's not a way innovation function. You will probably lose several times and the one you didn't see will be the one to succeed. I think the most important thing is to

be sure that you provide the capacities and all the opportunities for a series of very disruptive innovation to succeed. And to make sure that one of them will succeed and to accept that a lot of us will fail. And, and if I if I, if I if I accepted to take the risk of your question, I would say, probably, in quantum, I

would say quantum computer would be where we can we can we can take the lead and have have leadership. It's a work happening in the back end. Yeah, I think so. Because we have a leadership. Is the work happening in the back end? Yeah, I think so, because we have unique mathematicians, new capacities, and a lot of very performing startups and labs. So I really believe that in this field, we can deliver and have a moonshot.

But more than that, I just want to convey a very simple message. When we speak about innovation and moonshot, it's all about taking risk. And it's all about accepting to lose. And it seems to be super counterintuitive. But if you want to think and deliver big, you have to take a lot of risk. Except by chance, you'll never succeed the

first time. So if you don't accept to, to fail, and to start again, you will never succeed. And for me, the question for innovators, but it's true for countries and so on, is not to have people being super successful the first time. It doesn't exist. But it's a mix of risk and accepting that you'll fail and yet even if you know there are five things which are popping right now you can't choose which one is going to dominate right but one thing you

seem to be very certain about, which is very reflective in your relationship with our country, which is France has been an all-weather friend for India. It's not only a good weather friend, right? And you can see that like when the world is again France all this stood up, your relationship with Prime Minister Modi has actually deepened as well. And after 2018, the Indo-Pacific announcement in the world, our relationship has gotten even more stronger, right? This kind of geopolitic certainty and friendship is rare to see in the world.

Do you think this is going to be an example for the world that now the new world order is about multi polarity where things are going to be balanced in friendships and not going to be one sided?

Do you think India and France are setting an example?

I really believe that when we team up, we deliver. We launched together with Prime Minister Modi's Solar Alliance initiative we delivered. We launched together during the G20, the IMEC, we are delivering and we will deliver. We decided together to deal with artificial intelligence and the global regulation of conversation. We are doing it last year in France during our action summit. Now in India. So I think we we clearly delivered

concrete results, because it's based with all our differences. Because we are different as countries or civilizations are our people, but I haven't did this great relation with your Prime Minister and our countries have this great relation. Why? Because we have beyond this differences, similarities, a taste for for precisely cultural innovation and diversity, I would say. When you speak to a French person, I mean, the relationship with language,

with multilinguism, and the respect of francophonie is super important. When I see your Prime Minister is he speaks in Hindu and, and, and I know the diversity of your languages create something very special because we don't like uniformity. Second, we don't want to be dependent on one of the two big power. We want to have good relation with the US, China. We have different relationship by the way with both of them between India and France.

But it was the old rational of the Indo-Pacific approach, meaning a third way. Yeah, something which is I will not be confrontational with you, but I don't want to be dependent on you. Let me let me build my own future in full respect. And, and based on that, this is a fact that we really believe both India and France that democracy, rule of law, multilateralism delivering concrete results makes sense. And we are supporter of this

approach. And in this world where the rule of law is very often replaced by, I would say, the order of the strongest, I really believe it makes sense and it's super attractive. Because you can gather a lot of people, a lot of countries, a lot of goodwill.

So this is where I really believe this approach and our partnership is not just meaningful, but has a much more potential than what we see today.

True. You know, even Europe is realizing now that strategic autonomy is the way forward, not choosing one side. And PM Modi's brand is about choosing a strategic autonomy. We honor the Russian friendship yet deepen relationship with the US. We build a relationship with France and deal with the rest of the

world. So, he stood by it. Do you think your way of thinking and like Europe's way of thinking is now also being inspired by India and PM Modi now that strategic autonomy is the way forward not choosing sides anymore.

Look, I really believe that the fact that we build this partnership and this trade agreement, this free trade agreement between Europe and India, is obviously due to this period of time where there is increasing skepticism or frustration vis-a-vis the US given the recent attitude. And a lot of Europeans now see that India is the biggest place where we can build this new partnership. But I really believe as well that I advocated nine years ago, a more sovereign Europe. I pushed this approach of a strategic autonomy of the Europeans. Some

colleagues did follow me and wanted to cooperate. Some of those were super skeptical, saying, okay, this is a French idea. It will never work. And some of those were still in them in the certainties that the relationship with the US is something with which will never change and that this is a geopolitical umbrella and and the strong alliance something which will never change. And that this is a geopolitical umbrella and, and the strong alliance, which will always deliver. I mean, all this approach collapsed. Yeah. And, and not to say that we want to be confrontational with the US. I mean,

the more intense the relation could be, the more happy I will be. But having an ally, having a friend doesn't mean that you're dependent on your friend. And, and I really believe that when, when a lot of Europeans see that this approach is adopted by a country like India, it gives them more, more trust. And as they accept to be probably a little bit bolder. So I really believe on the on the potential of this relation as well, because it's, it will increase what we want to do together, meaning being more

independent. And once once again, what do we want to be more independent? First, because we are obsessed by this sovereign approach, what does it mean sovereign, our fellow citizens decide for themselves. If you are dependent technologically or regarding defense issues, you cannot guarantee your fellow citizens that they will decide. So in certain way, it's a bias in the

democracy, because I asked you to vote, but you will never decide if you go this way or this way, because you have no choice. So the strategic autonomy is super important when you are a strong democracy. And second, because we are both of us, I mean, India and France, very much attached to diversity, as I mentioned, and the strength of this diversity, and we don't

want to be part of a big uniformity. But, you know, we believe in this approach, but recently, like Donald Trump shared your private messages, like WhatsApp, right? He threatened to put 200% tariff on you. You've called his administration anti-Europe and a lot of like tassel. What do you think? What does it tell the world that one of the most powerful people

in the world is sharing messages publicly? Do you think that does this convey something about American leadership today? Should the world be scared?

I mean, I let you that respect is part of the leadership. And, and we have to provide respect to each other, you can share ideas or not, you can disagree. But you you have to do it in a respectful way between leaders, but within democracies as well. This is why I've always been extremely committed to, to fight against any any sort of hatred, speech,

or violence in our societies. Because when you have democracy, you have the right to change your leadership. You decide who will take the law and pass the law on your behalf. So no need to be violent and disrespectful.

But respect was built, and everything, but respect was built and everything which goes with the civilization process was built years after years, decades after decades, in order to improve ourselves. And, and it's a little bit surprising, I really believe, for people to see leaders going backward. Yeah. And it's not the right message. True.

You know, do you think that the dollar dominance is ending? Because India is now dealing in rupees, China's pushing you on, you talk about the energy trades in euros. Do you think the dollar dominance in the world is not going to end?

I would be super careful. Today, the dollar is clearly dominating the world. I really believe that I strongly believe in the in a multi-polar order. And I will do whatever I can to strengthen the international role of euro. What does it mean? We have to be more innovative. We have to be more competitive. We have to invest much more. We have to, on top of the trade agreements we sign,

to sign swap lines, to have euro as the exchange currency. And we have to make sure that the euro is seen by the key central bankers of this world as an alternative to the dollar, meaning we have to provide more euro as a safe and liquid asset. We have everything to succeed in this strategy. And it will be one of the elements of a more sovereign Europe and a more independent Europe.

I really believe it's possible. We have a window of opportunity, but it would be wrong to say that it's the case today. It's to be delivered and I really hope we will be able to do so.

Interesting.

You know, you talk about window of opportunity and that gets me to my last question that your term will eventually end. You might be able to take this window of opportunity or you might not be right. You're deepening ties with India, you're building, you're uniting Europe way more than ever. You have led France through uncertain times. You've been the youngest president in French history.

You've done it all but even after all these achievements, this window of opportunity might you might be able to achieve it or not but that is not certain but what is certain is your term will end. What scares you about the world right now after your term ends, what is going to be the most worry, like worryful thought for you? And what about the world gives you a lot of optimism after that your term

ends?

Look, what provides me a lot of optimism is the fact that more and more people are well educated. I really believe we have to do much more again, because still you have hundreds of millions of inhabitants in this continent, in Africa, where we have to improve the level of education to allow them to have more opportunities. But it never existed to have such a world where so many billions of inhabitants have this level of education and training. And for

me, this is a source of optimism, because it means that you have a lot of young people with brain and enthusiasm. And they will invent something better, for sure. I mean, for the world, in terms of innovation, culture, and how to deal with climate change and biodiversity, how to fit. So, I see that as a unique opportunity. And to be to be

cherished, because clearly, this is something we deliver during the past few years, and still to be improved. What, what scares me is the lack of, I would say, predictable and reliable framework in terms of defense and security. I think we entered during the past few years into uncharted territories. And the fact that Russia decided to launch this crazy war in Ukraine, having a permanent member of the Security Council of the UN with nuclear

deterrence deciding to launch a war which is a 19th century war, meaning revising the border and trying to be in a sort of neo-colonial approach. It's totally crazy, but triggered a series of reactions everywhere. And I think the fact that, yes, today a lot of big countries and big leaders seems not to see international order, and the charter of the UN as sort of our common code, and common rules. And second, this race for

for more defense equipments, arms and ammunitions is something very worrying. And I think part of the work I have to deliver in the 15 months to come is obviously to make France credible in this race. But as a society as well to start engaging with a lot of countries to build a new framework in order to, to limit your capacity to to have a misuse and inappropriate use of

this, this arms and ammunitions.

Does that scare you ever? That you might not be able to finish it in the next 15 months?

It doesn't scare me. It pushes me to be more energetic and to do my best in order to just to do it. Perfect. So I'm always in the action mode.

Yeah, you are, you are, you're always in action mode. And I have to tell you in the end, I loved that speech of yours where you said plug baby plug.

That was so good. It was one year ago.

Yeah, I saw that.

I submit. Yeah. Plug baby plug.

It was really good.

Thank you so much for doing this. I know we are short on time, or else I would have spent like three hours digging deep in your mindset. Thank you so much for giving us this opportunity.

I want to thank you and you can be very proud of what your country is achieving in all the different fields in innovation, tech, culture and the message you're providing to the rest of the world. And it was great for me in Mumbai here this morning to share this out with you. So thank you for taking the time. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Hello.

Hello.

How are you?

Very good, sir. Pleasure meeting you.

My pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Thank you so much for agreeing to do it.

Thank you.

You want me to sit this. Thank you.

You want me to sit down here?

Yes.

I'm fine.

By the way, Jamapel Raj. That's all my French.

Come on.

And where do you live?

India?

No, but where in India, my boy?

Delhi or Mumbai?

Mumbai. Mumbai. lot of my friends who took French as a subject in this class. Yeah? Yeah, so they keep talking like Jamapelle, Kamoditapelle, I don't know, like it's difficult but

I'm glad I could do this with you and they're gonna be jealous. When did you start? Four years ago. Right after Covid? Yeah.

How old are you? I'm 28 now. Wow. And now we are heading towards becoming world number one podcast. I think next 18 months we'll become.

Yeah?

Yeah.

We're 25 now in the world.

We'll be one. There's no French, Indian, Asian in top 10.

There's only Americans.

We're going to beat it.

I love this state of mind.

Yeah.

I love this mindset. Thank you so much for watching this podcast till the end. Please let us know in the comments what all did we do right so that we can improve and keep doing that better and what all did we do wrong so that we never repeat it. And at the same time, please give us suggestions of who's the next guest that you want to see on the podcast. And don't forget to share this episode with at least one person who will get some insights because one conversation is enough to give people enough ideas to change their

insights because one conversation is enough to give people enough ideas to change their lives. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep figuring out and also don't forget to