ROCKY GERUNG-MAHFUD MD SOAL JOKOWI, PRABOWO & SBY

Bung Roky from Jakarta, Zaden from Yogyakarta. That's where we got to know each other. At that time, we were not that young. One generation. One generation and one war. Mahfud MD was a person who was full of intellectuals.

From the beginning. Because there was something unique. So, the new order problems were dealt with academically. So, I thought, okay, he is a partner in intellectual debate. Even though he has different visions when he is in power. But I know that in his heart, there is something that he wants to control for the sake of political stability.

But when politics insult him, the truth will come out. He was insulted. The real one appeared. That's why when you were playing kopoluka, Bung Roky said, at least 8 months from the first episode. Only a few people who can duel with Mr. Mahfud's mind. Yes, in the cabinet, there are minorities. Mr. Mahfud, he was in the regime, but his feet are in the civil society.

So, the civil society still considers us to invest in democracy in Mr. Jokowi's regime through Mr. Mahfud. I met Mr. Rocky at my office. This country, especially me, I said, if there is no one like you, you can work online. Right? Mr. Prabowo wanted to address the public's demand, but it was a mess, because he raised the code of conduct. So, the code of conduct is like this.

It's a flesh and blood issue, not to the prime minister, but to the civil society. Prabowo's reaction to raising the-riding was a bad reaction. On Christmas, Gus Dur called me. Bung Roky, Merry Christmas. I said, Gus Dur,

I'm not serious about religion. You know what, Gus Dur? I'm not serious about my speech either.

How long will Bung Roky continue to speak like this?

Well, as long as Mr. Mahfud hasn't become president yet. I've never heard of such a voice. Please listen to my conversation with Mr. Mahfud.

Thank you, Mr. Rocky.

Okay, thank you, Mr. Mahfud.

In the studio.

You've received me. Mahfud MD. MD means human democrat. I've received it, Mahfud MD, which means a democratic person.

Here.

Wrong.

I'm embarrassed. Why is it in the middle?

It's like, no Rocky, no party. Rijal, I've known him since long ago.

As a subversive presenter.

It's okay. It's not a problem.

Those who are alive will find it. Okay, It's okay. It's a problem. They will meet in their lifetime. And they will be frank.

Mr. Mersa,

you or most of you might be surprised when Mrs. Rocky came to the room of the Sahabat, Mahfud MD Official. Who is her Sahabat?

Mahfud MD Official. I was surprised that his friend was Mahfud Rocky. Even though my friend was behind the screen. It's been a long time. I was amazed by his intellectuality because I knew him before. He was from the LSM era.

Yes. If the knowledge is compressed before meeting people, he was great. When I was the head of the Ministry of Justice. If he was a witness in court, everyone would be arrested. I was the head of the court. I just extended it in a short tempo. In a short way.

In a short way.

Thank you for coming. So, viewers, Ruang Sahabat. This time, as usual, will be guided by Rizal Mustari to have a chat with a friend. Actually, it's two friends, although sometimes in the air, in the virtual world,

sometimes people think we are different. Even though we are old friends. Rizal, please. I'm sorry for the style, I'm also a style guy like him. Yes friend of his. Mr. Rizal, please. Mr. Mahfud is a nostalgic guest. I'm also a nostalgic guest of Mr. Rocky.

Of course. But, I'll call you Mr. Rocky. Because you're more popular than Mr. Rocky. I asked Mr. Mahfud,

when are we going to call you a friend of Mr. Rocky?

Wait until this country is a bit more turbulent,

then we'll call you. I'm not sure if I can say that. Friends are needed when there is a surge of ideology, not politics. The problem in Indonesia is the surge of ideology. Politics can be made stable, but ideology cannot.

I see.

Okay, Sal, please continue. Mr. Mahmoud, I'll ask you first. You said that people might be surprised to have friends. But explain how many friends you have with Rufri. Where did you start? We started from the introduction. I read his writing for a long time.

But we met physically. Then we had a connection. When I became the head of MSK, he was often invited by people who were experienced in becoming experts.

The head of MSK means we are moving to 2013.

Yes. I was invited in 2019, 2011, 2012. If there is a problem, who can be called? Sometimes, the judge also asks for it. Not the person who is in charge. The judge who calls. Rocky, call him.

That's how we met. I was already the head of the MSK. I met him in a forum in Yogyakarta. It was the Queen's birthday. She was presenting a book, and I was invited to discuss it with Bung Roky from Yogyakarta. That's when we got to know each other.

At that time, we were still in our teens.

That's interesting. and that's when I started to get to know him at that time, I wasn't even a kid yet

interesting, the term kid I was really intellectual

now you're intellectual and semi-kid

now because I often fight

in the podcast

with Sylvester

when I fight with Sylvester

he just stayed silent.

That's so cool.

That's the source of Sylvester's emotion. That's so cool.

I was so excited. I was so excited.

That's how we met. Then, where else? We often, especially in the past, in the year of 2015, 2016, 2017. We were always in the front. We were placed in the last section,

above the 12 o'clock. The chief of the military, Ilyas. But now I'm older, I don't go to the stage to debate. I'm still great, I still serve people.

But as I understand, you're only 1-2 years old, right?

Yes, I'm 59. I'm 57. One generation. I was only 1-2 years old. I was 5'9". You were 5'7".

I was a generation.

A generation and a war.

Do you still remember the beginning with Mahfud?

I do. Even more than that, in some forums, Kompas, Majelah Prisma, you know?

And from the beginning, I detected that Mahfud MD was a person who was intellectual. From the beginning. Because there is something unique. So, the new order problems were dealt with academically. So, I thought, okay, this is a partner in intellectual debate. I thought that, even though it was a different vision when Mr. Malfoy is in power, but I know that in his heart, there is something that he wants to control for political stability.

But when politics insults him, the truth comes out.

That's the point. It's the same. It's a secret.

It's interesting.

If I'm on stage, I'll be called out. If I'm on stage, I'll support Mr. Mahfud.

I'll be a witness.

I was the first one who wanted Mr. Mahfud to be president.

Yes.

What did I say? In the University of Paramadina. Yes, in Paramadina. When the book was launched by Daniel Indrayana. I said, in Indonesia, the people who are in the Constitution are good. I was the first one to be on the team.

I said that. I was serious. But you were just joking. I was serious. But he was just joking. I wasn't joking. I'm serious. Because at that time, I had a principle. The presidential candidate had to pass the first test,

not the electability test, but the ethicability test. The ethicsability test. The second test was the intellectuality test. FUTM must pass it. Then we allowed him to test the electability test.

Now, the presidential candidate, the candidate of the DPR, intellectuality. Mahfud MD will pass, then we will allow him to test his electability. Now, the presidential candidate, the candidate of the DPRK, is tested for electability first, whereas he has a deficit of intellectuality, a deficit of ethicability. So, for now, in my mind,

only Mahfud MD, who passed, passed the ethicability, passed the intellectuality, then passed the electability. And the principle must be like that. That's the part of Radical Break, Pak.

Radical Break.

That's the part of Radical Break.

Now it's Radical Break.

It's because of Rocky Grung. So, my friendship with Pak Mahfud is a friendship because of the kindness of being together. There's an English saying, Friendship grows when kindness shows. Friendship grows when kindness shows. That's why these two people have the same basis in the campus world.

They often disagree in the forum after that, we went together I was a witness, you went out I also went out on the lift, we said Mahfud, we are friends I said, this is interesting I support you

on the lift, we were three

we were not dare to speak in front of the public we were staring at each other

intellectuals must debate The more harder the conflict, the more prestigious the result.

That's it.

We have to keep debating. The more tense, the better. That was said by a revolutionary American, Thomas Paine. Thomas Paine.

Yes. He was a revolutionary.

He was a revolutionary.

He was a revolutionary.

He was a revolutionary. He was a revolutionary. the better. That was said by a revolutionary American, Thomas Paine. Thomas Paine. Okay, we will continue. Thank you again for being here. This is the opening. The opening is long but interesting. We have a few topics.

There are two topics. The first one is the health and constitution. Health, right? Avoiding the pandemic, if you will. Then the opposition, the road. And the last one, the last one, we will talk about it. We will start with the two in the back.

No, the last one, if possible, the last one,

the opposition.

Nepalism.

Oh, Nepalism.

Good. Okay, okay. We'll do that. Two of you, in the back. Roky, you and Mr. Mahfud, you have the same embryo, right?

Yes.

From the campus world, both of you are in the back. What's the difference? Like Mr. Mahfud... The same embryo means it comes from the same womb. The same womb? Intellect same womb. The same intellectual womb. Pak Mahfud has a program called Terus Serang.

You have been talking about it everywhere. What inspires the same embryo to meet? Okay. The English saying goes, likes attract each other. Those who have the same perspective will definitely enjoy each other. So, that's, I think this country is built by intellectual energy.

We know our founding parents, not founding fathers, because there are five women here. Our founding person debated to produce the Republic's idea. So, from the beginning, this country was dominated by intellectual ability. So, that's why I think that why this country's genealogy, political origins are intellectual, suddenly now its origins are baser. So, how is it possible? What happened?

So, I want to bring intellectuals, not bring politics into the intellectuals, but bring intellectuals into the politics. Bring intellectuals into politics. Why? Because there is a historical basis, a history of the constitution. That's it. It's simple. It's impossible for this country to be managed by demagogues.

This country was founded by pedagogues. Now, it is ruled by demagogues. This country was founded by the pedagogues. Now it is ruled by the demagogues. In theory, you always say that, right? Yes, that's right. You always remind us that every voter's comment is always a disease of demagogues. Our democracy is still in the demagogues, the general understanding is that demagogues are people who are good at talking, good at promises, but they can't work. They don't know what they are saying.

They are dumb.

They are dumb. They avoid being dumb. I mean, the public prosecutors and the public prosecutors cannot realize that they are actually part of the demagogues. What we see every day is the practice of the demagogues. They deliberately demagogue themselves.

They know that what they say is a lie, and they still continue to do it. So, the mistakes are then forced to others as the truth. And he doesn't want to accept the facts and the intellectual analysis results that doesn't benefit him politically or economically. That's it. Mr. Bung Roky, in various forums, I always see,

I always see that you always emphasize on what is called civilian value, Pak. Now, do you release the words or the principles that are called civilian value, actually to change the life of politics like ours now, which is so much about campaigns and the voice of demagogues? Right. We see, for example, nowadays, can read the analysis in the country or abroad, it starts to detect that Indonesia is in the middle of a military crisis.

Or at least, a creeping military. A military crisis. Then people say, it should be returned to the civilian leaders. But Jokowi is a civilian leader. But his political culture was militaristic. So, our problem was not the civilian but the civilian values.

So, in democracy, the supreme must be not the civilian but the civilian values. Because that is more accurate to say that democracy means leadership based on the supremacy of civilian value. Not civilian people. So, the value is there. In a democracy, civilians and military people have to rely on civilian value. That's the basis. So, we are in the deficit of civilian value. That's what we have to fix. For example,

Mr. Prabowo is starting to show. The SBA is also military, but he is a civilian. Even the SBA is more civil than a civilian. That's what I mean. Why the civilian value has to be supreme, not the civilian. So, it's the value, not the person. The value, not the person. Mr. Mahfud, in the government, you have seen it, right?

How in the government,, you are a civil person. And you have to fight for your civilian value. How do you fight for your civilian value? the so-called PSBJ, they said that civilians are not civilians against the military, but values, where democracy values are appreciated.

People can be military or not. This is PSBJ's view, right? Yes, always. Therefore, PSBJ always seems democratic. Whatever. Yes, it's always like that. Therefore, the PSB is always democratic. Then, it's always constitutional. Maybe it has a certain political interest,

but the corridor is still constitutional. It can be ruled by the constitution. Therefore, discussions about the constitution, for example, about the hot issues, usually the PSB talks about the constitution, for example, about the hot issues, usually the SBA will talk about the constitution. If I want to make it legal, how? What about the political aspect? If the politics are like this, what will the law be? It will be like that.

Mr. Mahfud must have felt a different situation when he became Mr. Jokowi. Don't you know that, Mr. Kurogi? Well, I think Mr. Jokowi's leadership is still more open if the cabinet meetings are still in discussion. He still asks one by one. Even though he has an agenda, but still the procedures are passed. So, there is a hearing procedure in the court.

But ... The most complete court, right? So, there is a hearing procedure in the court. But...

The most complete court? Yes, the cabinet court. So, Mr. Jokowi gave a brief instruction. How about this, Mr. Minko? How about this, Mr. Minko? Meaning...

He wants to open the court. He is the one who controls before issuing a statement. And whether we agree or not, I saw there was a role of Mr. Pratikno and Mr. Luhut. So, it is directed so that it does not go to the edges. That's why as long as he's still up there, he's in control's the case. But the SBY is more likely to invite people to discuss and then

go back to the principle of the constitution. So, it is ... and also actively invite people to join. And they asked me, Pak Mahfud, there is a decision of the MSMEs, is it true that this is the interpretation of the constitution? Or is it not? I often discuss this with Pak SBY. I think we need someone like that. As a person who is outside the country,

what did you say about how Mr. Jokowi managed the country, the leaders of the cabinet and Mr. SBY? What do you see from the point of view of ... I still see that Mr. Jokowi lacks the elite Jakarta's connection. He came to Jakarta directly. So, in an effort to understand that.

But the SBA is different. He already understood about the elite Jakarta from the beginning. So, that's what I discussed with Mr. SBA two weeks ago. And it's still the same. So, the SBA understands what is called deliberative democracy. Democracy is a conversation.

The difference is that the SBA thought that democracy was a noise. But Mr. Jokowi understood democracy because it was explained by Mr. Mahfud. He didn't understand it from the beginning. But he must tune in with the situation. If the people who can't learn it, they will stop learning it halfway. But it has to be fair that the basic capital is different, right?

Yes, that's it. The basic capital is different. And we started to read that our elite wanted to be controlled by feudalism rather than democracy. Because they think that the society is feudal. The real thing is feudal culture. Feudal culture.

Imagine if there was no Mr. Mahfud in the era of Mr. Jokowi. No one can tell that this is against the constitution. This must be debated first. So, actually, we can see that the circle of the SBI has been trained to deliver democratic things. While Mr. Jokowi recruits people he doesn't know. Do you understand democracy?

Maybe you are the least educated is the one who understands democracy. I agree. That's why when you were playing kopolukam, Bung Roky said, Ah, at least 8 months in the hospital,

and you're still in the hospital.

How is that?

He said,

I can't, Pak Porto.

I'm working with Jokowi. If I can hold on for 8 months, it's good enough Because that's the thesis, right? Only a few people can be different from Mr. Jokowi and that's not pleasant for Mr. Jokowi Not only a few people can be different from Mr. Jokowi Only a few people who are able to duel with Mr. Mahfud's thoughts

That's it

Yes, in the cabinet, it's a minority

It's a minority

And Mr. Mahfud said, Rocky Saleh in me for 4 years.

So, I'm the longest.

Why is that? The ability of Pak Mahfud to bring the civilian view down, but at the same time, the harmony in Jakarta. Until it can. Still, Pak Mahfud, he is in the regime, but his feet are in the civilian society.

I see. So, the civilian society still thinks that we are investing in democracy in Pak Jokowi's regime through Pak Mafud, not directly through Pak Jokowi. Because we have been supporting him since then. The energy comes from the civil society. So, the civil society, Mas Roky, I often invite them to office. From various fields, environment, law, democracy, I invited him to my office. This is our problem. What do you think?

Because that's the deliberative. The sharp talk is there. Okay. We have finished the last question. We move to the next one. Next, health ethics and constitution. I want to ask you, Bung Roky. You said that

I'm talking about the health ethics, common sense. How important is it to fight when people with various choices or the government can make various decisions, you always fight against the common sense logic. Well, common sense is a kind of reaction, intuition from someone who sees that there is a potential for abuse of power. So, our defense is only on rationality, on common sense, right?

And that's what I think that brings back to what is regulated by the constitution. For three periods, it was not regulated by the constitution. So, it's not because it's not regulated, then it's allowed, but it's contrary to common sense. The power should be shortened so that there is a circulation. If it's prolonged, the circulation won't happen. That's common sense. So, I still think that way. And that's what I always say, that healthy logic means going back to the elementary rules of democracy.

For example, as Mr. Mavdot said, it is impossible for the DPR members to claim that they represent the people's sovereignty. The sovereignty is absolutely owned by the citizens. So, if the DPR says, we represent the people's movement, when will I submit my opinion? What I submit is my political interest for 5 years, and I can cancel it. The opinion is my lifetime. One second I represent my opinion, then I am no longer in a position of authority.

That is the basic principle in democracy. But the DPR members have never joined the Kurpol. The White Party thought that we represented the government. Where did you say you represented our government? You represented us for five years in the matter of political interest, not political sovereignty. Not political sovereignty.

So, sovereignty is my DNA.

Why do you think it's my DNA? It's not a political issue. It's not a political issue. It's not a political issue. It's not a political issue. It's not a political issue.

It's not a political issue.

It's not a political issue. It's not a political issue. It's not debate about logic. It was a great debate. It was great. The debate was about ideas.

That is what is now gone. Now, people's orientation is towards short-term interests. I want to know, from the government, because you have been in the government for a long time, and you always shout out loud. Your voice, which was inspired by the healthy mind,

what was the dynamic like in the government? When you became the Minister of Defense, I saw that. Because the civilian value is low, so there is no problem. But what about the others? I have no problem. In fact, when I met you in my office,

I told you that if there is no one like you, you can't work.

I told you that.

I told you that it is important to have a fight like this. Because we are logical to think about what we are facing. We are not facing it with a framework. That's the opinion. That's the opinion. That's the opinion.

Well, our menko puluh is okay, but the other menko menko is not as good as that opinion.

Yes, that's why it's called a minority by Rocky. Well, vote is a minority, it's not a minority. What is the struggle of you, Rocky, since you were talking about health, protest against the government's actions that came out of the people's government, how far can it be considered successful if it is measured until now? Okay, I never measure success.

The important thing is I want to have the force of the better argument in the life of democracy. I only rely on arguments. Because the politics these days, for a long time, are based on sentiments. So, we can still talk about public reason, the use of public reason, the use of rationalism, if it is based on arguments, right? So, that's the point why I keep saying that. And I understand why I came to ask Mr. Mahfud to discuss in my podcast,

because I know Mr. Mahfud is full of arguments. The others are full of sentiments. It's useless for me to talk about sentiments.

That's it.

That's the purpose.

Yes.

I remember, two or three years ago, right, Datin?

Yes, that's right.

And people said,

oh, Rocky Gerong has been bought by Mahfud. Oh, how is that? I'm the one who came to him, not him who hired me. I'm the one who asked, not him. I'm not hired by Istana. But talking about the current condition of Rocky Tan,

without measuring how successful your struggle is, but looking at the current situation. You can say it without measuring your success. But looking at the current situation, Mr. Mahfud is also outside the government. What do you think as a struggle for civil values? What do you think, Mr. Mahfud? About the civil values?

Civil values? I think there is progress and a step back. It is impossible to be completely bad. For example, the government's sensitivity. The government's sensitivity? Or the sensitivity of the public to the government?

The government's sensitivity to the public opinion. I see that since the beginning of Mr. Prabowo's government until the Augusta uprising. Augusta is also called the Augusta movement. In short, the movement of the staff. The staff. Until the Augusta uprising.

The staff. Okay. We will be short of money. Until it happens. We will see that the government is not sensitive at all. From the beginning of the government until it happens. Finally, as it happened in August, I think there has been a change. Why is there a change? That's why I asked, as someone who often discusses with Mr. Prabowo, how is it?

Mr. Prabowo wants to address the public's demands, but the address is also messy, because it raises the codari. So, this codari is also a flesh and blood, not for the priests, but for the civil society. What is it that Kodari has? Kodari is a three-period system. It means that the priests use Kodari to be three-period as well. That's the perception, right?

So we have to criticize it as well. The reaction of the priests todemocracy from Kodari. That's the basic. The public has this kind of perception. Prabowo reacted well. The first reshuffle was okay. Now, the second reshuffle, he didn't have time to think about what the public demand was. So, his reflection was blocked by his desire to directly address the public.

And addressing will cause a negative sensation. Once the code is lifted, the negative impression on the president will definitely drop. The KSP is the second person. In America, the head of the staff was the second person. Now the question is, why someone who is anti-democracy, manipulates the constitution with the principle of based on the big data, as Mr. Luhut said, is being promoted to the KSP?

That's the question from those young people. If I go to all the universities, I go to the area three times a week. They said, why don't you understand? For democracy, it means to abolish the original idea of the constitution. While Kodari is blocking the original idea by proposing Mr. Jokowi as the third president. This is a negative note.

Yes, yes. I rarely see Bung Rokim criticizing Mr. Prabowo. This time, it's the cavalry. Because it's a serious problem. Yes, it's serious.

Yes.

Mr. Mahfud, as someone who knows... You were one of the figures who opposed the extension of Jokowi. How did you face such an idea? It was the cavalry that started it, right? Yes. We couldn't stop it at that time.

But we can balance it. If I can talk about the constitution, according to the constitution, I can't. Kodari can change the constitution. We can just play with our opinion. If I use the word, it's like a trick.

That's what I mean. When people are starting to think that there should be a three-period or two-period extension, I came to Mr. Jokowi. He said, there were many people outside. They said you wanted to extend your term. And Mr. Jokowi said,

no, who said that? The ministers were there, there were six ministers, then the mayor, and so on. It was a mess. Who said that?

I said, Then Kodari and others were all shocked. Who said that, Pak Mahfud? I have said it. Whoever I want to extend my position, they will slap me in the face. They will look for my face. And there will be tickets. I was so confused to counter Kodari.

When I left the presidential office, I told the reporters, the president doesn't want to go to the third world. People were just joking. If you just argue like that, people in the Kodari class, if they are angry,

they will have an answer. That's the hard part. Just get out of here. That's it. If from the point of view of appreciation to the government, Mrs. Uroki has a deficit of appreciation to the government, Mr. Rocky is a deficit of appreciation to the government.

But on the side of Prabowo, it's very different from when he watched Mr. Jokowi. In my opinion, what do you see as a significant effort by Prabowo until now, in has been a year. People say, why is Rocky Gerong not as explicit as the criticism of Mr. Jokowi? I said, I'm sorry, because I forgot to criticize Mr. Prabowo. Because it turns out that Mr. Prabowo also kept 11 trillion in his left pocket. Because Prabowo is the one who promised 6,000 SMK.

Because Prabowo forced 40% of APBN to be put in the IKN. That's fair, right? It turns out, oh, why is that, Rocky? Because of that. If you ask the same, he will tell you where Prabowo did it. Now I criticize that Prabowo doesn't understand democracy.

That's the headline. Why? Because he raised an anti-democracy person. His name is Kodari. That's it. The problem is solved. I'm not criticizing.

But in an absolute way, we have to find out what makes me criticize Prabowo. It turns out he doesn't understand democracy.

That's it.

Okay, guys. I just got it. That's how it should be. Not comparing to Mr. Jokowi, and others. Finally, this point has come up. The point of critical meeting.

Because it was assumed that Rocky Gerald was promoted to be what's it called? President's assistant. That's viral everywhere. Yes, I discussed with Mr. Prabowo several times, but I still want democracy to be strengthened. That's the only principle, right? So, it has to be fair, I will still criticize President Prabowo.

Not because of revenge, but for the sake of the interests of the Republic, the direction of democracy, and the principles of constitutionalism. Mr. Mahfud, every week you appear on the podcast, right? The Podcast Terserang. What do you want to say by appearing on the podcast in relation to giving an overview to the current government? I just want to say that the country must be better.

And I agree with Mr. Roky. We must objectively evaluate the government. For example, Mr. Prabowo. We can't just sit around and do nothing. There must be a supportive side. Because the country must run. The government must not collapse. There must be processes where we criticize as hard as we can,

but the country must not collapse. So that the country can survive. So, we say that this is the good thing. This is the achievement. This is the disadvantage. And the sensitivity just appeared, it's already gross.

It's gross.

This is a new term, gross.

August movement.

August movement.

August movement.

If the news is clickbait. Clickbait, yes.

Hopefully this will continue. Hopefully it will continue.

I think it will definitely continue. Regardless of the criticism, about Kodari, about what else, hopefully we will. Yes, Kodari is just a symptom. Now I want to continue to Ketut. I am not afraid of criticism, or other things. I am just afraid of symptoms. Now I want to continue. We need voices that always remind the government, if we need to be different from the government.

Recently, we are now in the opposition, Pak Broki. Recently, young people have started to realize that they have the right to speak. They are the ones who contribute to the country. Therefore, they have the right to complain to you, to the government, to the DPR. Mr. Rocky, what do you think is the reason? In this era, not only you who are shouting,

but the young people, especially in the social media. There was a point when social deprivation was no longer hidden. It means that the pain of life, especially the loss of hope, finally exploded. And fortunately, the explosion in Indonesia was still under the brutality of Nepal. In Nepal, the Prime Minister was sent to Cali. If we ask, for example, did it violate human rights?

Maybe it only violated the law, the law that damages the river. Because people think that what he threw away was trash. I explained the psychoanalysis. So, when he can't reduce his privacy, people think that what I throw away is not human,

it's just trash. And if it is noticed in Indonesia, Kali Ciliwung is full. But this has happened. So, the parameter has happened. Now we have to watch again. Something called social unrest. There is a book written by Ted Gur, entitled, Why Men Rebel. Why do people rebel? Because of social deprivation. We want to watch so that this movement will happen again in the future. Maybe after this October,

there will be another movement because it will evolve the government of Mr. Prabowo. So that all movements that are not controlled by ideology will become brutalism. Well, movements without ideology are very easy to be manipulated by the leaders of the fascists. Which now appears without ideology. Without ideology.

Good. But the danger is that it can be supported by the fascist leaders. The unrest will be monitored by a fascist who will say, okay, I support you. We want these young people to be in a mess in the media,

but they have to understand where the direction of change is. Now, they are angry because of deprivation, but they have to be watched ideologically. I will continue, Goky. I caught the statement when a group of young people came to Pamah Food,

which is called a homeless media. They have big accounts in the media, and when they demonstrated, they were involved in making the voices of the young people louder. What did Pamah Food get from their speech? They came to you.

There were 30 homeless media at that time. How was it? I got that they had an idea about Indonesia that was right, Indonesia that was advanced, where they could live comfortably, and they felt that the current channels are a bit short.

So, they just spread it around, so that later the voice will be louder. Then they usually catch you, Rocky, catch our critics. For example, they come to you, Rocky Grung, they take notes, then they broadcast it. They are up to 3 billion views in a month. alternative is in the government or in general in the civil society. Because what we caught is that they know they want change, but they ask to be guided by what? By the civilian values.

Yes, I caught that. What we said earlier, they don't have an ideology yet, but they realize that they need it. That's the point. They need it. They are going around, right? Who before me?

It was you first, but because of the things in Jogja, they have other things to do. Then Prof. Renal Kasali came up. Then Romo Magnus Suseno.

Then Lisa Wahid.

The top people in the civilian community. They will go around to Mas Roki. Because I have been around, they are looking for me. They have been getting it every day. They've been getting it every day. They've been getting it every day.

Oh, I see.

So, there's a kind of volunteerism to find the right person. Yes, and I caught their awareness. When they talk to you, they're not only good looking in digital, in social media, but they feel

that we need to add knowledge. Add value when we work here. When they demonstrate, it's the expression of the hardware. After that, they reflect, they have to look for software. There's Mr. Mahfud's software, there's Alisa Wahid's software, there's Romo Magni's software. That's really good.

Okay, I just found out. Good. Okay, let's continue. Opposition. But I want to continue a little bit about the opposition. Pak Mahfud, as a person who has been in the government for a long time, how do you see the different voices emerging inside? For example, Rocky. Rocky, when he became the main coach, he was the main coach of Pak Jokowi.

Rocky was the top in the era when he was coaching Pak Jokowi is the main core. And Mr. Roki is the top in the era of Mr. Jokowi. We can see that he is the top in that era. How to defend, sir? I am not saying anything. How to defend the atmosphere when you are in the core, not disturbing, not criminalizing people like Roki, so that it can be still valid until now. How is it?

This is a good problem that has been raised. Why? Why is it not a problem? If it's someone else, it's a problem. I must refer to you. This is it. Not only us who assess this.

Try it. I mentioned it. If Rocky Gerung said this, this, that, everything is considered. I told them about the situation.

Pak Mahfud told you about it?

Yes, I told them. Azumar Diasra, Rocky Gerung, etc. I told them so that the civilians would be informed. Then I invited them to my office. We talked about the environment, Papua, forestry. I call people from civil society, so that it can reduce...

Haris Asrar, Bivitri.

Yes, Haris Asrar.

Haris Asrar has been invited many times. About Papua, about people. Usman Hamid also came to the office. We invited him. How can that culture be brought up in the government now? We feel like we need it. Yes, yes.

We should have a background campus.

That's the background campus.

It means the campus activists. Usually, the campus activists are like that, right? Mas Rocky, right? If there's anything, we would gather and discuss it. And we were not angry. We were not angry.

Bung Roky didn't discuss it with the president, with Prabowo?

I used to discuss things like that. But I was different from the president Prabowo who was more exclusive.

More exclusive.

That was the danger. Imagine, Pak Mahfud is in the Jokowi regime, but he hears the voice of the opposition. So, Pak Mahfud is actually in opposition to the indoor, I am in opposition to the outdoor. But the theme is still the same. What is the basis?

It's the campus politics. Because we have one grammar, one language, so, okay, you are in opposition, I will be in opposition, let's raise the argument. Because we are from the same womb. The same womb. Now, Mr. Prabowo doesn't seem to have that ecology.

If we look at who Mr. Prabowo is discussing with, his tongue is getting smaller and smaller. You understand, right? That's right. Mr. Prabowo is discussing with, the circle is getting smaller and smaller. Do you understand? Even though, Mr. Prabowo's reading is very good.

If you discuss something, it's good. But his environment is not an academic activist environment. But when it's already political, it seems to be exclusive. Yes, that's the point. Even though it is very inclusive. I never heard my conversation with you, Mr. Mahfud. Yes, because we have to,

intellectual politics must be the basis of democracy conversation. Okay, let's continue. There's still more.

One more, sir. The last one. Gus Dur.

Gus Dur, if we read Mr profile of Mr. Roky, and Mr. Mahfud, it shows that Rahim and Gus Dur have the same source, the same input. From people like Gus Dur and Mr. Mahfud, Gus Dur and Mr. Roky. I want to hear Mr. Roky's story first. What do you think of Gustru as a legacy? So, you think that it can still be fought for,

it can still be voiced from the values that were conveyed by Gustru at that time.

The values of Gustru are inclusivism. He believes that the political field must produce debate and differences. So, for Gus Dur, politics means processing differences, managing differences, not eliminating differences. Now, let's see how Gus Dur takes a paradigm that is different from the new order. The new order was basically because we were different, we needed to be united. It was a military thing.

On the other hand, because we were different, we needed to be united. The new order was the opposite. For the sake of unity, there should be no difference. Those were the two different things. So, why did I tune in, even going native, to join the forum on democracy at that time?

Because of Gustru's thinking, his polaristic thinking. So, we started to see that Gustru, from the beginning, people who know what it means, what is the DNA of democracy? It's in the difference.

The difference is managed, not united. That is the first thing. The second thing is about the humor. For example, on Christmas, Gus Dur called me, he said,

-"Rocky, Merry Christmas." I said, -"Gus Dur, I am not serious about religion." Do you what, Gustur? I'm not serious about it either. So, it's fun, right? Interesting.

It's funny.

I laughed right away.

That's the ability of a genius.

Not intelligence. Gustur's genius. So, it's fun, my friend.

The difference.

Yes, because when we were at the Democracy Forum, I asked Guster, why did you make Mr. Mahfud the Minister of Defense? Because the last name is MD, Minister of Defense. So, imagine, Guster was just easy, so it was easy. That's how troublesome, right? I was asked,

Gus, why did you issue a decree? It's dangerous. It's been a long time since there was a decree.

The deadline is long gone.

I'm just kidding.

Something that was said in Warung Gobi, and people were talking about it in the press. I'm just kidding. I'm sorry, but I really noted that we are used to differences. I really felt that in Gus Dur's place.

Even his decisions, we don't understand, we change ourselves. How did you see it in the process? Well, Gus Dur, if he already has an opinion, he's really firm. His decision-making is very democratic. You can talk about things like, if I do this, I do that, and then you can conclude.

So, if you have made a decision, then it's done. But sometimes, it's normal. Leaders sometimes have their own character. Like Gus Dur, if he has a foundation, he can get angry, he was angry.

He was like, you can't do that. You can't do that. But I was just laughing. Bung Groki was Gus Dur's friend. He was in the forum of democracy. And he was in other civil society. But when Gus Dur became the president, Bung Roky was still allowed to be in the civil society.

But Mr. Mahfud was pulled out of the campus. Is that Gus Dur's way to developed democracy and justice? Yes. How? Gus Dur, at that time, at the Democracy Forum, there was Mr. Marsilam, Mr. Bondan, Molia Luskyokek. But I said, there must be something out there. And it's true, when Gus Dur became became the president, me and Pak Syahrir, we were the first ones.

The first criticism came from me and Pak Syahrir. When Gus Durr met Tommy Soeharto. He was elected 2-3 months ago, and met him at the Hotel Warbudur. We immediately remembered. We said,

Okay, Gus Durr, please step down. It's only been 2 months, and you've met him. So, that's a habit. But Gus Dur felt, well, I'm the president, I have to know what the previous regime thought about my decision.

Even though we know that Gus Dur was diplomatically appointed. But it's fair, we gave him a critique. So, for me, there's no problem. It's because of Gus Dur that I gave him a critique. Because I know he would understand. That's the point. But I was still friends with Gus Dur.

One time, Gus Dur even invited me after he was in Langsar to give a lecture at the mosque. I was sitting in the mosque in Ciganjur. Oh, in Ciganjur. In Ciganjur. And people asked, why did Rocky Gerung going to that mosque?

Gosur said, this is a public space

he's going to the mosque

people ask like that it's a misunderstanding

what do you mean?

imagine that Gosur is still someone who is authentic in his work he's a robot Roky Gerung once said What?

...the holy book is fiction. Yes. How was it? It was a big hit.

How?

Until he was checked by the police.

By the police.

I remember that time.

What happened?

I was going to a seminar. I forgot to remember. I was going to a seminar with Roky Gerung at the University of Paramadina The event started at 1 PM But Roki Gerung said, I have to go to the police station at 2 PM

I want to be checked It's about fiction

The holy book is fiction

Then I called the police station

Yes, I called

Did you get a call? No, I already time? No, I retired from the Ministry of Education. Oh, you just retired from the Ministry of Education. The influence is still strong.

The influence is still strong.

I said, Mr. Rocky, this is still a seminar until the afternoon.

What are you doing?

If only people say the holy book is fiction, then you want to sentence hundreds of thousands of people in Indonesia who have a good opinion. It's fiction if in the sense of...

The meaning of the sentence is...

In the sense of love, it's not the result of...

the result of...

We don't know.

How can we not know?

How?

Not in front of the eyes, right?

It's also checked, but it doesn't continue. It doesn't continue. The police called me the next day. I said, what do you want? You continue, you're a nuisance. I said, the whole of Indonesia can be reported.

This is the real bestie for Dilan.

The bestie, of course.

What forum was that on?

The WLC forum. They said that Rocky Gerong was quoting the Quran. No, I said the Bible is fiction.

The one that was circulating, I said that Rocky Gerong mentioned the Quran as a fiction. No, I said the Bible is a fiction. Yes.

The one that is related to it, Rocky said the Bible is a fiction. I said it's a fiction, not a fiction. I said that fiction even creates imagination. I even explained what heaven is. It's a fiction, there's no heaven. So for young people, for example,

who live when the present, they think hell is a coal mine that burns them. If they never heard of coal mines, they would think it's just an electric corset. So fiction is more important. But it creates imagination. But people try to trick me into thinking I'm saying it's fictive.

I'm not saying it's fictive, I'm, I said fiction. And fiction is our ability to imagine. Yes, imagination. How long will you continue to speak like this? Well, as long as Mr. Mahfud hasn't become president. In 2029, still.

The answer is a real challenge.

My friend still wants to debate. My friend is still willing to debate. He used to be a debate host on TV. Yes, he was. We waited for the debate until 1 o'clock. He's still here.

Yes, but he's more subversive here.

Okay, Mr. Broki, thank you.

You're welcome.

This was a very interesting conversation.

It was really interesting. I'm very happy to be here. Okay, thank you. So, this is a very interesting dialogue, Mahmoud.

There will be something happening tomorrow after we talk to Mahmoud. With a very smart, healthy, and anti-corruption dialogue. See you in the next meeting. Friendship means honesty. Political friendship, honesty to produce and defend democracy. That's it. Political friendship, honesty to produce and build democracy.

That's it. That's it.

Thank you.