RODRIGO PIMENTEL SOLTA O VERBO SOBRE OPERAÇÃO NO RJ: “GUERRA CIVIL ENTRE POLÍCIA E COMANDO VERMELHO”

We'll start the show talking to Rodrigo Pimentel, who has already participated several times with us. He's online. How are you, Rodrigo? Thank you for your attention here with Pânico, with Jovem Pã. I'm going to start. Everyone knows that Rodrigo was the captain of BOP and such. He's been here several times on Pânico. I'm going to start with you with a question question that was asked to me by the audience. It's a question, which is the following, Pimentel,

for you to describe to us a little bit, what is this scenario, what are the circumstances in which the police are working? Because you were in the BOP and you know how it works. In the size of this operation, how can you explain, what is the terrain, how is the care so you don't hit innocent people, the parity of weapons, all this so you can explain, so we can understand, we who are not in Rio de Janeiro,

in this terrain, so we can understand. And thank you not in Rio de Janeiro, in this area, so we can understand. And thank you for your attention here, Copanico.

Thank you, Emilio, for the opportunity, once again, to be with you. I lost a friend and two acquaintances in the operation yesterday, the fourth police officer who died. I had 40 days in the civil police. I didn't know this one, I didn't have the honor to meet him. But three colleagues, one was very close,

two I've known since 1999. So I'm very sad, shaken. I don't trade the lives of four police officers for the arrest of 200 rifles, 300 rifles. So, immediately, I consider all this a great tragedy. But let's go on.

Few people know that in Rio de Janeiro there is no more a situation of bandits and police. The classic banditry. Rio de Janeiro, if you were to conceptualize it, would be a non-international armed conflict. We call it a CANE, where you have irregular forces that have been on the ground for two decades, 20 years, 30 years, right?

Which is the Red Command, which is the Third Command. You have territorial dominion. The territory, the State can no longer put its foot down. You have these bandits with a capacity of medium intensity confrontation. They have the ability to mobilize 200, 300 criminals at once, with rifles.

And you have these criminals facing a state force. So, all over the world, Emilio, all over the world, this is called civil war. The name of this is in Africa, in Europe, this would be a civil war. In Brazil, we call it criminal and police. So, out there in the world, you have legislation This would be a civil war. In Brazil, we call it bandits and police. So, out there in the world, you have war legislation

to face this kind of problem. In the logic of war, when an infantry troop is advancing, it has to have an advantage of 4 to 1. So, if you have a thousand bandits in the territory, you have to enter with 4,000 men. That's the logic of war.

Remembering that Rio de Janeiro doesn't follow the logic of war. It's the logic of police and bandits. But without understanding that, we can't understand what happened in Alemão yesterday. Two days ago, the Red Command invaded a favela in the Pavuna area, Morro da Quitanda.

The Red Command, with 70 criminals, killed a 60-year-old woman. She was made a hostage at home and was murdered. The Red Command killed a 30-year-old man who had nothing to do with the local traffic. And this invasion of the Third Command was commanded by DOCA,

which is the leader of the Red Command, DOCA, the bear. It's obvious, Emilio, that in the real world, in any country in the world, police forces and society would mobilize to try to capture, arrest or even kill this DOCA. Because the freedom of DOCA puts the lives of thousands of people at risk,

who are the residents of the factions of the rival favelas. This is very logical for anyone, but it's not so logical for the people who criticize this police action. Reinforcement. I don't celebrate the death of 100 criminals, 60 criminals. I don't celebrate the death of 100 or 60 criminals. I don't say the operation was successful,

because if the police died, it wasn't successful, in my opinion. But I reinforce that it's necessary, it's urgent, to try to recover these territories. The criminal today is corn. He no longer survives from selling marijuana and cocaine. The criminal survives from the exploitation of the territory.

He sets up a barricade and from there, the laws are the laws of the Red Command. From there, all the economic activity of the entrepreneur is charged by the Red Command. Just to remind those who are watching us, a month ago, a young man selling selling barbecue in Ceará, in Fortaleza, who didn't want to pay R$ 1,000 a month to the Red Command. He was murdered.

That's the true strength of the Red Command in the Brazilian outskirts. So, recovering the territory is an emergency, a necessity. But there are people who understand that it would be reasonable to leave it in their hands forever and Brazil loses its sovereignty in this region. The data I gave you a year ago, when I was with you,

is that here in Rio de Janeiro, according to the Federal University of Fluminense, 4 million people live under the dictatorship of the Red Command, or the Third Command, or the militias. So there are 4 million people who don't have citizenship. They face the misfortune of the police operation, which is a tragedy, and face the barricade of the Red Command at their door.

The resident is really the main victim of all this, right, Emilio?

Can I ask a question?

Yes, Morgadinho. I'd like to know, Rodrigo, about the armed forces. We saw the news here saying that Lula denied three requests, said that maybe at any moment he could release the armed forces. I'd like to know, in your opinion, what is the importance of this, since you said that the contingent is not enough for the banditry,

which you call a civil war. And we also see the press calling this police action a massacre. There are people saying that this is asking for the governor to leave because it was a massacre, people... almost putting the bandits who were killed as good people. I'd like to know your opinion about this

and if the armed forces would be really necessary in this moment in Rio. Borgado, you know that people, the press, ignore, in general, I know you don't ignore this, but I didn't vote for him, but the candidate most well- most popular in the German complex for the state government, who won in the first round, was Claudio Castro.

Look how interesting. A resident of the German complex voted for the governor who determined this operation. So it seems to me that the resident of the German complex is also dissatisfied with the Red Command. Exactly.

That's my impression, right? But some journalists want to know more about the German complex than the German residents themselves. The German residents can't stand the barricade anymore. But let's go, Morgado. I have four colleagues here from the military police

whom I trust a lot, whom I believe in. They were in Brasília in January, in an audience at the Ministry of Defense, asking for the Marines' armor. Those are the armor that those lizards have. The military police's armor, the skull,

can't go through the barricade. The Marines' armor can push the barricade. The Navy's armored personnel can push the barricade and put it down. In the Sérgio Cabral government, it's very important to remember that, President Lula and President Dilma

lent the armored personnel, in a very emergency way, without any bureaucracy, without declaring the GLO. The same president decides not to lend the gun to Governor Claudio. I think that's very weird, and nobody is remembering that. It seems that you can lend it to Cabral,

because Cabral is a friend of the government, and you can't lend it to Claudio. That's what it seems to me, okay? It may not be. It may be that it's not. These guns would be very important

for the police officers' life preservation because the police officer doesn't need to get off the car. And it would also be very important for the bandit's life preservation. Because if the bandit notices the police entrance and he can't face them, he surrenders.

So, in the end, lending the gun helps everyone, solves everyone's problem. But the federal government doesn't have that sensitivity, that knowledge. They don't know what's going on. Notice, Emilio, that President Lula, six days ago, I can't help but remember that, and there's no irony in that, Emilio. President Lula, 6 days ago, he was in Indonesia,

I don't know where he was, and he gave an interview saying, look, the culprit of this is the addict. The drug dealer is a victim. He said that with all the letters. I'm not changing anything.

If you're doubting, go and watch. It's obvious that he said that in the context of Venezuela. But that's what he thinks. President Lula thinks like Captain Nascimento in 2007. Captain Nascimento would pick up the college addict and say,

the culprit of this is you, who killed this guy was you. But Captain Nasc will sophisticate his knowledge over the next two decades, and he'll understand that drug and cocaine trafficking doesn't survive anymore.

Trafficking survives today, almost always, from territorial exploitation, like selling gas canisters, selling internet TV signals, selling Paraguayan cigarettes, selling sale of coal, the sale of ice, the sale of beer. That's how drug trafficking survives. It's the demand for extortion from residents and entrepreneurs.

But the president doesn't know that. In the 21st century, in 2025, he still thinks that what fuels organized crime is the drug addict, who doesn't even represent 15% today. And yesterday, if you can put this later, you don't have to be here, it can be later,

Lewandowski gave a collective interview. Lewandowski, Emilio, was a minister of the Supreme Court, and today he is a minister of the Supreme Court. And now he's a minister of justice. And he said categorically, in front of 20 journalists, he said, it's the duty of Claudio Castro, governor of the state.

If he read the Federal Constitution, Article 144, he would see that it's the duty of the State to oblige everyone. So Lewandowski was totally wrong in his speech. And the journalists there, who were watching the collective, misinformed or, I don't know, they don't know, they didn't research, they didn't do training,

they don't seek to know. The journalists didn't question Lewandowski, didn't raise their hands. Minister, calm down. You're just saying it because there's no money in the Constitution. And, Emilio, think about Canada, think about the United States, think about Argentina, think about Colombia.

In all the countries of the world, the fight against drug trafficking is from the Union, the Federation. Brazil is the one that pushed this bomb to the state governors. The trafficking is transnational. It's on the federal highway.

The rifles come from Paraguay, from the United States. The state governor can't fight this, comrade. If everyone doesn't join in, the Brazilian outskirts will soon be taken by the Red Command, the PCC and the Third Command. What's happening today in Fortaleza, Emilio,

and the press is neglecting it, in a cowardly way, is that there are hundreds of people kicked out of their homes by Red Command in Fortaleza, Maranguap, right? The Red Command expels you from your home and charges a rent from your home. The governor of Fortaleza, Emanuel Freitas,

he sends a police car to help you make the move. He sends a car to help you make the move, but it doesn't guarantee your right to stay in the place. you can make the change, ok? He sends the car to help you make the change, but it doesn't guarantee your right to stay there. This is an attack on sovereignty. And, unfortunately, Lewandowski, Lula and the Brazilian press don't talk about it.

Yeah, we've seen a lot of this. Now, to understand this operation, because 2,500 soldiers went to do this operation. It's a very big operation. Do you think something leaked? Because it seems to me that the Red Command faced the police. It seems that they were prepared for what we saw here in the images. It's a drone with a bomb.

How do you see this, Captain?

Emilio, despite all the caution to not leak, you have 2,500 police officers, you have troop movement, when the troops move through the avenues, through the yellow line, the red line, it is evident that there are positioned scouts or even bandits infiltrated in the police, as we saw before,

who will inform the arrival of the police. More than that, the Red Command has a very large number of drones today. These drones are positioned at 1,200 feet, 400 meters. They have cameras. That boy with a rocket, exploding fire,

to warn the police, that doesn't exist anymore. What exists is a command and control center, the Red Command has that, with images, informing the police approach. So it's almost impossible for the police to intervene without being plotted, without being spotted.

And then there's a very cowardly analysis by some journalists. Ah, there was no intelligence in this operation. Emilio, intelligence is obtaining information, photos, maps, location of the paywall, identification of the hay, the identification of the bunker, of the DOCA. All of this you have to do.

But at some point you have to execute this operation. You have to go there and get the DOCA. And the DOCA is surrounded by back-up. It's in a bunker, usually in the underground, and there will be a confrontation. But the Brazilian is hearing from journalists that if there is a confrontation, it's because there was no intelligence.

This is not true. The American went to pick up Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan. The CIOs. There was intelligence, there was information. The American troops arrived and had to face Osama Bin Laden's security. So it's irrational to think that there won't be a confrontation.

There will be a confrontation, and often the police will even give up the confrontation, Emilio. Four months ago, Pop and the police surrounded 400 drug dealers in Rocinha. Pop's commander understood that he couldn't face the criminals.

And the BOP backed out, Emilio. And that can happen, yes. If you can't face them, you back out. So that's the reality of Rio de Janeiro. Reinforcements. A real civil war,

ignored by a good part of the press, by a good part of the politicians, a good part of the politicians, a good part of the governors. It's dominated, right?

Yes. It's dominated.

I have a question. Rodrigão, let me ask you a question. I saw a parallel of Elite Troop, if you had seen a movie, right? Elite Troop 3, and the criminal faction is so organized that it's already infiltrated in politics.

The Red Command, did it also get into Rio's politics? Three weeks ago, the Federal Police arrested a MP from the MDB, TH Joias, a MP who was on the alert, who, according to the investigations... In fact, he was arrested for the second time. He already had a prison sentence, time. He was in prison for 14 years. He was able to run for office.

He was in the seat of the MP for the MDB. It's important to talk to the party so the voters know that some parties accept these people. And this MP for TH Joias was investigated selling drones to the Red Command and the Third Command. Imagine, if you have an infiltration in the Legislative Assembly

to the point that a congressman sells equipment to the Red Command, what else could be happening? So I agree when some people say, but it's much more than facing the traffickers in the favela. I'm sure that facing the traffickers in the favela and reclaiming territory

is only a small part of what can be done.

Rodrigo, we were talking about the drones here, which impressed everyone. Where does this professionalization of the weapons of drug dealers come from? And if there is even a possibility of training, because there is a very big evolution, both in weapons and tactical operations. Where does all this come from?

The first drone used in the world in confrontation, many people say it was in Azerbaijan, in the Armenian war, five years ago. People are wrong. The first drones used in the world in conflict was in the war of the 3rd Peshawk Command with the Red Command to take the High City in 2017.

The Peshawk used at least 10 drones to monitor the movements of the Red Command and attacked the Red Command with the information needed to locate it. Then came the war of Armenia, where drones were used. People applauded, wow, what sophistication.

Then came the war between Ukraine and Russia, where drones became the main tool of war today. But the origin of the drone in war, in conflict, is Rio de Janeiro. And something worrying, the war between Ukraine and Russia will end soon, if God wills, this war will not last longer, if God wills. This war won't last much longer, if God wills.

And there's an excess of drones in the world market. Only in Ukraine and Russia, there's something like a million drones. These drones will come from Rio de Janeiro. Some are already arriving here. The Red Command is already using drones,

the Third Command, to plant bombs. In the past, to launch at the rival faction, today to launch at the police, as you saw yesterday. These are improvised artifacts, but they are very lethal. They put PVC pipes with screws, nails, and when it falls on the ground, it detonates, it turns into a shrapnel,

it hurts a lot, it can kill the police officer. This is very serious, Emilio. We should have a law for this. The Federal Police here in Rio de Janeiro, brilliantly, was able to identify a Brazilian Navy soldier, a bandit who served, who wore a Navy uniform, but was a bandit,

who was teaching the drug dealers how to operate drones. It's very sophisticated. Using this aircraft in combat, making it throw the bomb in the right place. So it really needs training. But my concern is that Minister Lewandowski

doesn't consider this terrorism. He thinks this is normal for criminals. It's doesn't consider that terrorism. He thinks it's normal for a bandit to do that. That's not terrorism.

Pimentel, there's a question that worries us. Because, it seems, many were arrested, but there must be retaliations. I know that this tactical force, know this tactical force is important, body to body, but I also know that, from what I've read,

at least the war against a faction is won before. And what have we done for the next steps? Because I'm afraid, I think it's the residents of Rio de Janeiro, that it should spread immediately, or other places in Brazil.

What can we do as a public security policy?

If I had that answer, I think I'd be president today.

Because...

Who knows?

Two months ago, a month and a half ago, we saw that operation of the Federal Police and the São Paulo Police Department, the São Paulo Public Ministry, against the PCC of Faria Lima. And many people use this operation today

as an example of a successful operation, that we were the money of the faction. Okay, we were the money of the faction, but the faction still exists, the PCC still kills people, the PCC still dominates the territory.

So that operation in Faria Lima, despite being very well received, it didn't have any practical effect in terms of dismantling the faction. And certainly the prison of DOCA wouldn't have any practical effect immediately.

The Red Command would still exist. Instead of DOCA, João, Marcelo, Flávio would take over. Because in Germany, for example, the police already arrested Marcinho Vepê, Elias Maluco, and many other criminals. They were arrested there, or killed. And the FACÇÃO still dominates that territory.

So the solution would be, in my opinion, the constant presence of the state through the police apparatus, through effective social actions, sports, leisure and culture. Which didn't work.

The UPP.

You were here in Rio with out was the UPP.

You were here in Rio with me when the UPP was implemented. We applauded that first moment of the UPP, we thought that was the solution, but the UPP was out of the picture. And more dangerous, we established the UPP in the territory, with those improvised containers,

10,000 young policemen, many were killed by the Red Command, we established the UPP without the criminals being arrested. This is a total mistake. For me to put a police on the ground, first of all, I have to remove the rifle from the ground and I have to arrest the leaders.

But then comes that second story, that Governor Claudio Castro repeats in interviews, the average time of a criminal being arrested with a gun, simple arithmetic, is 11 months. So there is no police in the world that can solve the problem of arresting a criminal and he going back to the streets 11 months later.

That's the big problem, Captain. Because what they say, what we're always talking about here, with those who really understand this security business, is that the law is half-assed. If there was a heavy law for those who have a gun in their hands, the guy would think 10 times before having a gun.

It seems that 93 guns were learned, right?

And it's a war rifle.

That's it. That's it.

It's a war rifle, isn't it?