She Smeared Gaza Protests - And I Took Her On. Just Watch 😱

Wow.Just wow.The government is threatening to ban protests against Israel's genocide.I went on LBC to oppose this, and among other things, my opponent argued that The Economist magazine is part of the Hamas propaganda machine.Yeah, that's right.That's the right -wing publication which supported Israel's genocidal onslaught against Gaza.

That's what we're dealing with here.My opponent was Natasha Hausdorff, who's legal director of UK Lawyers for Israel.You can obviously get the gist of what they do.I'm going to include the whole debate, which starts with her speaking at some length.Please do persist in listening.

that although, of course, some appalling things are said on these marches—and it is not uncommon to hear appalling things said on marches—it would be an infringement on our rights to protest too grave to prohibit them.

Well, I disagree.And, of course, at the center of this is a balancing act, but it's one that has been pretty controversial since these marches—and I would call them hate marches, for reasons I'd be happy to explain—since they began over two -and -a -half years ago.I remember actually being in a panel with Lord Ken McDonald and Sir—forgive me—Jonathan Hall KC, the independent reviewer of counterterror legislation, already in November 2023.if you can cast your mind back to that time.And the general consensus, I have to say, on the panel is that the police weren't doing enough.I certainly have not accepted throughout this period that there were simply insufficient powers.

I know we've heard from police commissioners all over the country complaining that they need to be given more powers by legislation in Parliament.But the fact of the matter is, we saw a complete change, at least to an extent, in the way that these marches were being policed with respect to this incitement and these vile calls for genocide against Jews after the horrendous attack on Yom Kippur.on Manchester Jews, which was, of course, swiftly followed by the tragic incident, another mass attack, mass killing of Jews at Bondi Beach.So, the change in the police's approach wasn't prompted by a change in legislation, but a change in attitude.And I think your previous caller, Jody, put it exceptionally in explaining what these praises mean, something that has been evident to anyone with a familiarity of the Middle East, but, of course, also to the British Jewish community from the very beginning.And, unfortunately, the level of ignorance we have seen in combating these calls for genocide, for attacking Jews, and, of course, for globalizing the Intifada, which it's important to note we also saw on the 7 -7 bombings, that globalization of the Intifada doesn't, of course, just include Jews.

It includes ordinary British citizens as well.And it's high time we take the proper measures—the Home Office, the police, and also members of the public—in calling this appalling rhetoric out.

I understand that, Natasha.And before I go to Anna, I just want to push you on one thing.But if—it can be no doubt that there are some things that are said on these marches that will be appalling, and I'm sure the police ought to deal with them.But if you are a person who feels passionately, does not agree with the idea of genocide against Jews, does not agree with the idea of violence against Jews—indeed, you stand fiercely against that sort of appalling racism, but you still want to register your profound abhorrence with what the Israeli government is doing in Lebanon and Gaza.If these marches are banned, how are they to do so?

I think this is perhaps the most critical aspect of our conversation, the most important part of this discussion, which is what the driver of this wave of anti -Semitism that we have seen is.And the critical driver that is not being discussed, Lewis, is the false information being spread regarding Israel.And this is something the government does have powers to do something about.Of course, in a democratic society, people are free.to express their views, even if I might consider them to be abhorrent.But there are things the government can do with respect to ministers spreading false information about Israel, which are undoubtedly driving many well -meaning people to attend these marches.

But could it be that things the Israeli government itself are doing are driving people to attend these marches?

Well, there I would actually push back and challenge very strongly, because what I continuously hear on these marches and in the media, the allegations that are supposedly underpinning this action have no basis in reality.They are, if you will, the modern version of the blood libel.Now, you may say to me, well, there are lots of well -meaning people who believe them.I'm sure, in the Middle Ages, there were many well -meaning people who'd been deceived, who believed that Jews targeted children to use their blood for religious ritual.That was not the case then.It is not the case now.

Okay.The fact of the matter is, if we draw a parallel—perhaps this may assist, Lewis—the Allied forces, of course, in the Second World War killed millions of Germans.Nobody called that a genocide.Nobody called brave RAF pilots conducting bombing raids baby killers.And yet we have these tropes and these blood libels being circulated with a complete refusal to acknowledge and, in many circumstances, I'm sorry to say, broadcast the reality, which is—and I say this as someone who's been on the ground in Gaza, witnessing the measures that the IDF takes, along with members of six NATO armed forces, very senior generals, colonels, majors among them.All right.

Natasha, I've got to bring Owen in.And I should say, actually, in the Second World War, there were people who criticized British government action in the Second World War, and in terms of being too extreme, particularly the attacking of civilians and so on.But let's not get distracted by that.Owen Jones from The Guardian.You know what the accusation is here.It is that these are hate marches.

And you've heard what Natasha has to say.What is your response?

The world's been turned on its head.These are the opposite of hate marches.They're peace marches.They're marches opposed to Israel's genocide against the Palestinian people.It's the expression of opposition to Gaza being wiped from the face of the earth, over 100 ,000 people being killed, according to multiple academic studies.You know, let's—she says genocide.

I mean, just be clear, Natasha is making it clear that her view is scrutiny of Israel.and opposition to Israel's crimes is anti -Semitism.lies to scrutinizing and researching genocide.Thousands of Jewish people attend these protests.They hold placards asserting their Jewish identities.They wear their kippah.

They wear Orthodox Jewish clothing.It includes Holocaust survivors, like the 88 -year -old Stephen Kaposch.I interviewed Rabbi Herschel Gluck last week, who received an OBE for his work on intercommunal relations.He's the chair of the Shomrin, which protects Jewish civilian communities in northeast London.He said to me that so many Jews attend these protests that he thinks it's a higher proportion of any minority, any community in this country, including Muslims.as is

Israeli state exterminates Palestinians, commits war crimes, cooks children alive in their tents with their missiles, starves people, we are going to keep on marching.And it is turning the world on its head to say that opposing murdering people, that opposing killing Palestinians is hatred and extremism.And if we're going to talk about, just finally, what's inflammatory, you can support openly Israel wiping Gaza from the face of the earth, and we're having no debate or discussion about how that's extreme or dangerous or hateful.But if you march opposing civilians being murdered alongside your Jewish fellow citizens, that makes you a hateful, dangerous extremist.The world's turned on its head, and people don't buy it.

— Natasha, you've heard the charge there, which is that you are simply trying to shut down scrutiny of Israel and what it's done in Gaza and is doing in Gaza.What is your response?

Well, he's certainly not familiar with my work and my commentary on this, and certainly perhaps as unfamiliar with the facts and the reality on the ground.What we've heard in these series of projections, and ill -informed ones, as the rhetoric of a Hamas propaganda machine—this is an internationally prescribed terrorist organization that is putting out fake numbers, fake casualty statistics, in seeking to capture the minds of unsuspecting people like Owen Jones.And plainly, they've been extremely successful, but it doesn't take away from the reality.please.It is these organizations that these misguided individuals are marching to protect and defend, who are responsible for the humanitarian crisis, for the killing that Owen and others so pretend to lament.And it's the pretense here that is most damaging.

That is what is having this misinformation -spreading effect.If we are to engage with the reality that starvation was just thrown out, we have put out report after report assessing the levels of aid that were facilitated in the Gaza Strip, and proving each and every one of these tropes wrong.The anti -Semites don't— OK, Natasha, I think it's fair.

We've got to let you— Natasha, let Owen respond to what you've said.

OK.OK. I mean, look, you made a completely outrageous claim that I'm part of the Hamas propaganda machine.There's absolutely no basis or evidence for that.And if we're going to say that anyone who says that huge numbers of people have been murdered, exterminated, killed, whatever you want to say, by the Israeli state, the economists—the economists backed Israel's assault on Gaza.They did their own detailed estimate of the number of people killed in Gaza and their upper limit, and these are out of date, this was last a year ago now, was 110 ,000 people.If we are to believe my esteemed guest, The Economist magazine is now part of the Hamas propaganda machine.

As regards, well, Do you know what?

I rest my case on that.

And I've explained on multiple occasions previously the reasons for that.No, no, Natasha, you objected to me interrupting you.All I would say is, Natasha, please go ahead, carry on.arguing that the likes of The Economist are part of the Hamas propaganda machine, because all you are doing is discrediting your argument.And I would just add, by the way, you said—you mentioned, for example, about these academics, like Omar Bartov, the dean's professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at one of the most prestigious universities of the world.on the face of the earth.

Israeli scholars of genocide, who dedicate their lives to studying genocide, are talking total errant nonsense.You must have to accept that there must be some legitimacy in that argument.The truth is, Natasha, Israel has committed a livestream genocide.It has butchered vast numbers of people in front of the whole world.And that's why, in America, for example, two -thirds of Jewish Americans think Israel's committed war crimes.Forty percent think it's committed genocide.

Half of all Jewish Americans under 35 believe it's committed genocide.You would have to then say they're part of the Hamas propaganda machine.It doesn't work.

Western population.They are all, too, victims of the Hamas propaganda machine.

point are engaged in this subject that prove all of this wrong.The problem with proving a negative, of course, is that those that are putting out these falsehoods can't be bothered to engage with it.And it is the oldest trick in the book to say, look at this Jew who is criticizing Israel, when those criticisms are not criticisms, if they're not— But it is true, isn't it, Natasha, that being anti—what the Israeli government is doing is not the same thing as anti -Semitism?This is the critical distinction.I have not heard these individuals raising aspects of Israeli government policy that they disagree with.I have heard them putting out falsehoods and saying that is the reason that they object to Israel.

That is when anti -Zionism and anti -Semitism are ultimately the same thing.It is the modern acceptable form.But it's not criticism of Israel to say that you object to things that the Israeli government has done and it hasn't done.

I think what we all need to be doing right now is demarcating Jewish people and the actions of the Israeli state.That is what anti -Semites want us to do.They want us to conflate Israel's crimes with the Jewish people.And it's also what people lobbying and supporting the state of Israel want us to do.Now, as regards, by the way, the figures, The Lancet, the most prestigious medical journal on the face of the earth, they estimated that by January 2025, well over a year ago, 83 ,000 people had been killed.They said that was a very conservative estimate.

And that obviously excludes all the deaths in the year and nearly a half Since we can listen to the figures of U .K.lawyers for Israel, or we can listen to Israeli genocide scholars and the preeminent—journal on earth, and we can say, well, actually, we have a democratic right in this country, which our ancestors fought for at great cost.

And we should be able to protest the murder of Palestinians.Sure.Is it not fair enough to say that one of the things that we are often told, especially by the left, is that with regards to racism, perception matters.It is, to some extent, in the eye of the beholder how people feel.And you cannot deny that at least elements of these marches are making many of our fellow citizens, British Jews, feeling extremely uncomfortable, indeed scared.Briefly, could you answer that point?

There's no doubt at all that there's massive fear at the moment amongst Jewish people, not least because of the rise in violent attacks.What I would say is, I would hope they would listen to Jewish protesters who join these protests, who help organize these protests, who speak at every single protest.They stand in the best tradition of Jewish people, who have always been overrepresented in struggles for liberation and for equality, which has often driven anti -Semitism, I would say.So, all I would say is, please speak to Jewish protesters, speak to the likes of NAMOD, who organise Jewish people in this country to oppose Israel's genocide, and listen to Israeli scholars of genocide as well.

There you have it.I want to emphasise something I said.

We have to demarcate.Jewish people, on the one hand, and Israel, a foreign state.Both anti -Semites and defenders of Israel want us to conflate Israel and Jewish people, and we must fight that.It's not anti -Semitism.to object to the murder of Palestinians, to their naming, to their torture, to their kidnapping, to their incarceration, to the destruction of their society, to the occupation, apartheid and indeed genocide they are subjected to.And it is absurd to have to even entertain the argument that that is hatred and extremism.

The real extremism is supporting what Israel has done to the Palestinian people.The world's being turned on Israel.It's our responsibility to turn it the right way up.Please like and subscribe.Please do support our work against the genocide and other injustices at patreon .com.

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