"She's A DANGEROUS Figure!" Princess Kate's FURY At Boos + Meghan & Harry To Bring Kids To UK

Grab that popcorn.The Sussexes are rolling into town.

It's without doubt, and by an order of magnitude, the biggest royal story of the year.And I think it's a bombshell.

There is so much division.She is the Marmite of the royal family.

There is people that literally can't stand her.The money is drying up.The gigs are just not there.

There is a problem for the royal family now.They can barely fill a balcony.Who is it who you think fills that gap?

Certainly not Harry and Meghan.

There is this animosity about branding an entire nation of people racist.So what possible commercial salvage have they got here?

I end up being put in the position of appearing to defend Meghan.

I hate to interrupt this cosy consensus, but I consider Meghan Markle to be a dangerous figure.

This week on the Royals Uncensored, brace yourselves, they're coming back.Harry and Meghan will return to the UK with their family for the first time in four years.Well, will the King's feud with Harry prevent a reunion with his grandchildren?Has Prince Harry made a private bid to fix a meeting with Prince William?And is Princess Catherine preparing to play peace broker?Well, we'll tell you what we know, including the thorny issue over their security arrangements.

And also coming up, it's a packed week of procession and prestige for the Working Royals, from the King's Birthday Parade to the Order of the Garter at Windsor, and of course, the Royal Ascot.I'm Jo Elvin.

And I'm Katie Nicholl.And alongside us as ever is co -host and Royal Butler, Grant Harold, who's going to tell us how to avoid being kicked out of the Royal Books at Ascot.Yeah, I'd like to know how to get in.

But anyway.But we are joined in the studio this week by Mark Dolan, host of the Mark Dolan Show, and by the journalist and author of the brand new book, Divide and Rule, Royal Women and Their Battles.It's Catherine Meyer.Welcome to you both.It's great to have you.

Welcome.

Because we're going to start with the big blockbuster story.Grab that popcorn.The Sussexes are rolling into town.It's true, apparently.We knew that Harry was coming in July to sort of like markcountdown for the year away that we are from the Invictus Games.

He wants the king there.He wants it to be a big, jolly procession.Never did I think that Meghan would be joining him for this trip and she is, but also the children.They haven't been here together as a family for four years.I think the king has met his grandchildren a handful of times, Lily about once.Archie, I've forgotten his name for a second.

I can't even see him, I've forgotten his name.

He might have forgotten his name because he's barely met his grandchildren.So what do we know?What do we know about what's going on, when they're coming, where are they going to stay?Is it going to be an Airbnb?What's going on with security?

Well, I mean, all really good questions.It will certainly not be an Airbnb where they stay, but of course it won't be Frogmore Cottage either because they've vacated there.Yeah, it's a dump.It's a dump.It's a big question.Where are they going to be staying?

This story broke on an Australian media outlet.I got a briefing, unusually actually, saying, yes, they are coming, and Meghan is going to come with the children.And this is a reconciliation that has been a long time in the pipeline.Don't forget, a couple of summers ago, we had Charles's aides meeting with Harry's aides, then we had Charles and Harry meeting.So this does feel like the next step.I mean, I'm just surprised that Meghan is coming over.

I mean, Mark, what do you think?

Well, it's without doubt, and by an order of magnitude, the biggest royal story of the year.And I think it's a bombshell.And I think it's surprised royal journalists and the public.We know the mood music is that things are thawing in the relationship between the Sussexes and the Queen.the King and the Firm.We know that we've had the Clarence House face -to -face last September so clearly the wheels have slowly been in motion but we didn't expect it to happen this summer.

I thought that the obvious moment would be Invictus next year in Birmingham which as we know is a huge deal for Harry.At that point you might not be surprised to see Meghanthe kids.But for it to happen this July is significant.And it doesn't have to happen, because this countdown to Invictus is a nothing burger.It's a non -event.

What do you think has happened there?Is Meghan excited about this trip?Has she been dragged by Harry, who's desperate to reconciliate with his father?You know, what's going on?

Well, I think the fact that it's happening after all the things that Meghan has said about the UK and about the royal family and the fact that it's happening for this non -event of the one -year countdown, which Harry could easily have done on Zoom from Montecito, smacks of desperation.And I think that what this move reveals is the total failure of the Sussex brand in the United States.The money is drying up, the gigs are just not there, there's a golden handcuffs deal with Netflix, which is a first look agreement.So there's a few million in it, but it's effectively Harry and Meghan can pitch ideas to which most likely Netflix will say those are horrible ideas.Thanks, but no thanks.We know that Harry's speaking engagements have dried up and he used to get a million dollars a speech.

Now it's 50k.The as ever brand is struggling.That jam or spread or whatever you want to call it ain't selling.So I think that this move so prematurely, a year ahead of Invictus, reveals that I think Meghan and Harry are really worried.In particular, Meghan, who, you know, my sources tell me, sees herself as the breadwinner.And the received wisdom is that they get back to the UK, recalibrate their royal credentials, and hopefully it boosts their brand.

What do you think, Catherine?You're looking a bit dubious there.Now, you've written about Meghan in your book and how the narrative has played out.You know, she's kind of been rather cast as the villain in the whole Megxit scenario.What's your take on this new development?

Well, one of the questions I ask in the book is not, you know, it's not, there's no, nobody needs to like her, but...why people feel the need to actually hate her is one of the questions in the book that I go into.But in terms of that scenario, I don't think that it's untrue that they have been struggling to get their business ventures to work, you know, be it the media ones or their foundation or any of any of the structures.You know, those were all things that were built with no planning whatsoever, because by nature of the way they left here, they just plunged into that life over there and tried to construct something that would work.And it looked like for a brief moment, Netflix might fly, because obviously that first series they did, which was, of course, about royal life and their experience did do well, but there's a kind of circularity to these arguments and one of the relevant points about the sort of negativity towards her is that in order to have successful lifestyle brands in order to be cast as the smiling host of a TV series and have people tune in, you really do need people to like you.And while she does have, or they do have, their kind of online fans, there is no way that that relentless sort of criticism of them does not create a feedback that affects them.

But also, What you're not saying here is that there is a problem for the royal family now, which is the huge demographic gap that they have.When I wrote my biography of Charles before he was king, it came out in 2015, there were 18 working, senior working royals, you know, and the conversation then was all about slimming down the monarchy.about there being too many.We're now in a situation where they can barely fill a balcony.

We've discussed this before.

You know, but I think...

Wait a minute, if you're saying the numbers within the royal ranks are too low and that it's too threadbare, the idea that Harry and Meghan are going to help the project is a little bit...I'm not.It's like a chicken farm, we're getting help from foxes.You know, they've wreaked extraordinary damage on the royal family.

Let me ask a different question.

Go on then.

If, you know, I'm not saying that I think there's a clear path back for them into the family ranks, nor do I think necessarily that is what they would want.But what I am saying is, what do you do at this point in time where there are the oldest generation of royals is now sort of they are significantly older.And you then have, you know, the...That's a wider question.

That doesn't pertain to the Sussexes, who left the United Kingdom.They had an agreement which was brokered by a late Queen, which was to leave the United Kingdom, give up their royal duties.They're not in the frame for this conversation.

There's a question I'd like to ask, if I could jump in, if I may.

That's a bit like asking your ex -husband to do the weekly waitrose shop.They've gone.They're out of here.

But you didn't wait for the...You didn't... actually wait for the question, which is, I'm saying, who is it who you think fills that gap?Because...

It's a different conversation.It's certainly not Harry and Meghan.

Well, the gap is a massive chasm, isn't it?Because it's not Beatrice and Eugenie.It can't be.Exactly.OK?And it can't be George, Charlotte and Louis just yet.

No.The huge pressure is on Princess Catherine and on Prince William.Exactly.One question I want to ask, and I'm just going to bring Grant into the conversation here, is, and I were talking about this off -air just before we got ready for the show, there's a reallychance, if they turn up at anything even semi -official, I think that we could see the Duchess of Sussex being booed.I mean, we don't know what their schedule is.

Catherine, you've written a book.I mean, Divide and Rule, there is so much division.She is the Marmite of the royal family, and your testimony to that, we've got two very different opinions.Do you think we might see her being booed?What do you think the reception is going to be?

and she comes over.I think the problem is, because of everything that's taken place, everything that's happened, there is people that literally can't stand her.I mean, I get people come up to me all the time, because sometimes I'll go on other shows and I'll not support them, but I'll kind of sit on the fence and people say, why, how can you not see the damage that they've done to her family?I can see the damage they've done, but at the same time, it's still members of the royal family.I know they're not working members of the royal family, but they are still members of the royal family.It's still the king's, it's his son.

It's his daughter -in -law.And the thing about the king, the one thing I remember about him is he's somebody that he always sees the good in everybody.Even when they're not good, he still sees the good in people.And I've witnessed that firsthand.And he will absolutely want to fix this because the other thing is, let's face it, you know, he's obviously not a well man.He is obviously doing an amazing job.

under the circumstances, but he may also, at the back of his mind, he may be thinking, I need to fix this, I need to resolve this.

Well, I can.And also, can we just put paid to this idea that criticism of the Sussexes, or in particular criticism of the Duchess of Sussex, a title that she's clinging on to for dear life, in spite of her disparaging remarks about the institution, That's a strange one.

Well, I think that that's a lot of the source of the animosity.

Well, so she, you know, is awful.The gilded cage of royalty.No one asked me how I'm feeling.The whole thing was horrible.Harry and I got out.She clings on to that title.

Well, that's a bit of a strange thing.But the reason why I push back on this idea of haters.Well, this is the sort of weaponisingyou get from the Sussexes and from Meghan.Any criticism is hatred.It's not.

All it is, is to call out her wild double standards.So she's worried about the dangers of social media for children and young people.And she puts Archie and Lily on Instagram nonstop, including, not when it's just their birthday, but trips to Disneyland.

What I'm curious about is, like, because, you know, I agree with you.And I'm sort of thinking about what you're saying about this large, desperate attempt to find some commercial value in coming back to the UK.But there is a lot of animosity.towards the Sussexes, there is this animosity about branding an entire nation of people racist, you know, and all of those things.So what possible commercial salvage have they got here?

Well, I think so to actually agree with Catherine, you know, William, Catherine, Charles, Camilla, and Harry and Megan are all members of the same family.And that is a very fair point.And they're all human beings.And I think that Harry and Meghan were sincere in their desire for a private, simpler life in the United States.I don't think it's panned out that way.But I think that they're coming back here.

I think that there will be booing.I think the booing is inappropriate, by the way.I think that's rude and very un -British.But I don't think they'll get the warm reception.And I just think ultimately, you reap what you sow.

I mean, ironically, Catherine, you've been defending Meghan here.But you've had problems about being told that, you know, for attacking her.But you've pleaded in your book.for us to take a different sort of like more measured view of all the royal women.

That's why I'm laughing because what happens, and in a funny way we're demonstrating the mechanism here of the way polarisation works, is that because you have this very strong line on Meghan here, I end up being put in a position of appearing to defend Meghan, whereasthat's what I'm actually saying is, I do think that you're demonstrating that there is a level of animosity that is, you can call it hatred, you can call it animosity, there is a very strong feeling against Megan, which plays out.

Based upon her actions.

based upon reporting of her actions and her actions but the two things are not always aligned and that's something I explore in the book.You point out inconsistencies.There are all sorts of things you can find to criticise her for.

She wrote to the boss of ITV to get Piers Morgan fired for saying he didn't believe a word she said in the Oprah interview, an interview which has since been debunked by, for example, the Archbishop of Canterbury.

An interview which caused a rift, not just within the royal family, but actually internationally.Britain was accused, not just the royals, Britain was accused of being a little racist island.

So are you saying that the issue is the reporting of that or can she be accountable for that interview and what she said in that interview?

But again, we're talking about, yes, it was a very high profile interview.Yes, it had a lot of, you know, knock on effects and a lot of resonances.Even if you don't believe a word that she said in it, and I think as with many things that she does, there was a very big mixture of truth in there as well as, as well as, you know, inconsistency.Varied recollections.Recollections may vary indeed.None of that actually justifies the strength of feeling against her.

The bullying allegations are by far the most serious allegations against her, which I do go through in the book.Even in that case, it doesn't put her on a par with the sort of the public enemy number one, which is where she's ended up.And what I'm talking about here, this isn't a defense of Meghan.This is me saying, we allow ourselves to hate on people so easily in public life.And when you look at the...Particularly women.

And women in particular, and when you look at the mechanics of it online, and you look at the people and the, in fact, machinery leaping on that, quite often state -sponsored disinformation campaigns, the involvement of China and Russia and Iran, you know, you just think this is not good for the world, this is not good for women, this is not good for democracy.It's not the royal family either, is it?The royal family, you know, one of the main functions of the monarchy is to unify.

Yes, we've said that, haven't we, before?And at the heart of this unified royal family that we look up to on the balcony...Well, I hate to...

I hate to interrupt this cosy consensus, but I consider Meghan Markle to be a dangerous figure.who is capable of causing much more damage to the institution of the monarchy and to the country because she's a proven liar.She's a hypocrite.She's a fake.She's a fraud.And I think that we're entitled to call out her actions and her remarks.

I don't think that there's anyone...

And there's no hatred there.I can give you full examples of, you know, why I've come to that view, and millions of others have too, including the establishment in the United States with late -night talk show hosts now openly mocking the couple, because they know what the rest of us know.

So, Mark, you would say that, actually, they are both of them, and that idea that...Which, an idea I discount.I don't think they will ever come back to Britain, and I don't think they will ever represent the royal family.in a working capacity.It simply won't happen.But you clearly see them as dangerous.

Grant, I want to ask you, when it comes to William and Harry, and one suspects William might have some empathy towards that idea of Harry and Meghan being dangerous, particularly when they're down and out on their luck in Hollywood and when they're low on cash.William's not stupid.He will know there's another reason to them wanting to come back here other than just wanting to make amends with the King.What about the state of play in terms of that relationship?And to Catherine's point, that fraction and discord at the heart of the monarchy and potentially under William's reign is a problem.

It is. I think William will be consent.I think he would be really concerned.I do.The other thing that was put to me was whether here, is it possible to see Meghan doing some TV opportunities, potentially, which I think is unlikely.But I think William's going to be watching them, you know, very closely to see what they do, whether here, how they behave.I doubt they're going to get, I mean, there's also these rumours that they might possibly get together, they might be a family dinner or something.

Joe, what are you thinking about that?

Well, I'm just thinking as well, what you're talking about, we haven't discussed the Princess of Wales.And I think that it'll be very interesting in the context of your book what happens with any perceived observed dynamics between Catherine and Megan.Will they studiously avoid each other?Will the media be absolutely hawking to see whether there's any sort of like, you know, friendship between them, any building of bridges?But I mean, again, there's...

I find myself constantly being asked about the relationship between those women, you know, what went wrong with the friendship.There really never was a friendship between them.They were too different, weren't they?And there never would have been, exactly.So that's also what I'm talking about.You have a whole series of kind of slightly misleading narratives, you know, and you're getting exercised.

about the fact that Meghan isn't always consistent, but my God, the media.is consistently inconsistent here too, you know, it creates situations in order then to get upset about things.

Put quite a lot of pressure on them in the beginning, there was almost an expectation that just because they were both going out, or in Catherine's case, married to Prince William, that there'd be this wonderful sisterhood between the two of them, you know, and that we'd have Diana and Fergie all over again and that sort of almost our projection, the media's projection on to what we want it to be, rather than the actuality, which is that these are two very different women.It would have been wonderful if they had gotten on Like a House on Fire, but sadly, that wasn't to be the case.

I think the other thing is for both of them, from my observation, was Catherine had a lot longer, if you want, I went to the apprenticeship, she had a lot longer to get used to how it worked, the system.From what I understand, Megan went in and was confused, she didn't really understand it, she didn't understand the rules, the protocols, the etiquette, and she made a couple of decisions in those early days where she was told, you can't do that, there's things you have to do.Because of Catherine's background and because of how long she was in the family and obviously dating Prince William, she got used to that way of life.She understood what was expected of her.

I mean, there is a sort of, I think, an area where a landing point for this conversation, because you are right, it can manifest as hatred for Meghan.And that's also really bad, because that's toxic.Meghan is a human being.She's got amazing get up and go.She's a remarkably driven person.She's now one of the most famous people on the planet.

She's highly accomplished.I mean, I think her superpower is getting what she wants, and that is a remarkable thing.Look at her life story.It's quite something.But I think that the landing point, I think, is not to focus on Meghan and to hate on Meghan.I think it's the couple.

I think it's Harry and Meghan with their pooled ambitions and the shared goals that they profess to have when they level the playing field.and then the hypocrisy that they as a couple have demonstrated.And I think that perhaps you're right, there is maybe a disproportionate focus on Meghan, and there's the small matter of her husband, who is the King's son, and is the man who left his family, left his country, and he probably doesn't get enough of the probing that Meghan does.

Well, they were, of course, the notable absentees at Trooping.Because, of course, they lost their place on that balcony, they lost that place when they stood down as working royals.And to your point earlier, Catherine, I mean, what a slimmed -down monarchy it looks.The future there is very much all about the Wales family and that immediate line of succession.Now, it was the first time that we saw Princess Catherine on the dais right alongside, shoulder by shoulder, with the King and the Queen.We had Prince William on horseback, along with the Princess Royal and Prince Edward.

And, of course, we had carriages.Carriages galore.The Queen looking beautiful there in her Fiona Clare ensemble.The King taking the salute.And the children, the Wales children, in carriages, in that procession.We sort of watched them grow up.

And at this point, I'd love to bring in Graham Smith.He is CEO of Republic, the group behind those protests at Trudeau.the colour last weekend, because there were protests, Graham, weren't there?I think, welcome to the show, it's lovely to have you on.Protests most notable, actually, when the children were in the carriages, being processed through, the crowds cheering, but of course, Republic with a presence that I think we've become quite accustomed to now, appearing to cheer and shout at the children, which I think has been something of a backlash against Republic, a bit of an own goal, I'd say for the monarchy and got you one withering look from the Princess of Wales.My goodness, I wouldn't have wanted to be on the receiving end.

that stare off.

Well, we couldn't see it, to be honest, and we couldn't see them either.I mean, we were back behind the crowd.It hasn't been much of a backlash.I know some papers have tried to make it an issue, but I mean, we weren't booing the children.We were booing, or some people in the protest were booing the royals, because they all go past, you know, within reasonably close and the point of the protest, unlike any protest, is to get noticed and to make sure that the message is there, that this is not a country which is wholly behind the monarchy, that there are obviously crowds that will go out and see it, but there are increasing numbers of people that oppose it.

But shouts of, not our king, at those young children in the carriages who were there because the public wanted to see them?

I was listening to the conversation before where there was criticism of Harry for putting the kids on social media.Now I'm pretty sure William was made similar comments about social media.They troop their kids out all the time.Now, I personally don't think that is appropriate.I think they should be leaving the children at home.I know that some of the European royal families don't involve their children until they turn 18.

You'll see that, you know, anybody tries to, you know, do you know how many children Keir Starmer has, what they look like, what their names are?You know, most politicians these days also leave their children at home and keep them out of the press.The royals troop them out as part of their PR.

Yes, but as we were also discussing on the show, Graham, the royals have a very different job to politicians.That line of succession, that dynasty is absolutely fundamental to the institution.

It's fundamental to them and it's exploiting the children for their PR.But I mean, you know, there's no reason why they can't leave them at home and let them come out when they're 18, when they can decide what they wish to do.

I would argue with you, the children look very comfortable in those carriages.I've been there at many a trooping.I've seen that they're happy to wait.What they're not happy to have is protesters shouting at them, not our king, when in fact, that's their grandfather.

Well, I mean, this is a very silly conversation.I mean, it's not about the children.It's about the monarchy.This is a corrupt and secretive institution.You know, we had a lot of hypocrisy.The word hypocrisy has been thrown around for the last 10, 15 minutes about Harry and Meghan.

But I mean, the royals are hypocrites.They don't pay tax.They, you know, they interfere in the political process.Well, they do.They do pay tax.They do pay tax, Graham.

They do pay tax.And we'll be analysing the finances in a matter of weeks.

They pay some tax.They dodge huge tax bills.And as we know, they get 11 of them, most of whom no one ever sees, get free homes at our expense.They cost well over half a billion pounds a year.Well, hang on a minute.

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but they are paying rent on their houses.Prince William and Princess Catherine both pay the full rent on their house in Windsor?

Some of them.Eleven of those royals get free... homes in Kensington Palace and St James's Palace, buildings which belong to the public and which should be museums open to the public.But, you know, as I said, they cost well over half a billion pounds.Now, this is an institution which is being accused by historians of being more secretive than CIA and MI5.You know, they have serious questions to answer about what Andrew knew and when.And it is opposed for all sorts of reasons by about a third of the country, which is a significant increase on sort of 10, 15 years ago.

And some polling is putting support for the monarchy below 50%.So, you know, obviously it's going to be opposed.This is a state institution that has opposition, and that opposition is going to turn up and make itself known.

Well, I think the problem Republic has, and I have to say, Graham, when I was covering the King's first trip, and you had a massive presence there, I remember reporting for NBC at the time and being quite surprised by how many Republican protesters there were, but I thought there were fewer numbers of you at this year's ceremony.

I don't know which trooper you're talking about.

The Trooping the Ceremony this year, I saw fewer protesters.

Which one were you saying went with those massive numbers?I mean, it's a similar number.But I mean, the point is, part of the problem we have is that the police are abusing their power to put conditions on us.And that is putting some people off turning up at these protests.That's something else we have to tackle.So they put conditions based on a barefaced lie that they thought there was going to be some kind of problem if they didn't do that.

So that does put people off coming.But it wasn't particularly different to previous years.It's only the third Troop in the Colour we've protested that.

Speaking of Troop in the Colour, Graham, you have mentioned that even if, you know, you got your way and we did abolish the monarchy, that you would be happy to keep ceremonies like Troop in the Colour keep going.I don't really understand.So, like, why would you use that then to be the place of your protest?And why would you want it to still carry on?

Well, at the moment it is a moment which is designed to promote the monarchy and to give the impression that the monarchy is universally loved, to give the impression that it has this innate connection with our military.Charles, William, Edward and Anne all wear uniforms ranks and medals, which they haven't earned and aren't qualified for.We call people like that Walter Mitties.They are not qualified for those uniforms and ranks and medals.And they use the military to suggest that they are embedded as a permanent feature of our state.And they shouldn't be doing that without being challenged.

Graham, I wanted to ask a question, it's probably one you've been asked many times before.Do you ever worry about the alternative of not having the Royal Family?The reason I say that is I also give talks on cruise ships about our Royal Family and I've had people who describe themselves as Republicans come up to me and they say what worries them is they don't agree with the Royal Family but at the same time theyworry about the alternative.Because you look at the state of politics just now in the country, and they say that they're worried about what the future for our country would be without that continuity of having a head of state as a member of the royal family.Does that even a little bit sometimes concern you about the alternative?

Say we did become a Republican country, and we did have a president.Would that not concern you, looking at the state of politics just now, if I can ask that?

No, I mean, you know, if you're concerned about the state of politics now, that's happening now with our monarchy.Now, the monarchy doesn't do anything to help that.It doesn't do anything to protect us.You know, our constitution is pretty poor.And if we did have a radical, you know, far right or far left government that didn't concern itself with the rights of the public or the the concerns of democracy, we could be in very serious trouble.We could go down the Hungarian route incredibly quickly because there are so few checks and balances and the monarchy has no protection.

Now, we don't argue for a United States -style presidency or even a French -style presidency.We argue for something similar to what they have in Ireland, for example, or Finland or Austria or Germany or Iceland.It is a parliamentary system, but it's made democratic.So we elect people to do a particular role and we can remove them if they don't do that role properly.But the monarchy doesn't protect us.It doesn't provide continuity other than the monarchy.

I mean, it doesn't do anything else for us.

Well, Graeme, thank you so much.It's great to have you on.We appreciate it.We welcome the debate and always in a very respectful environment.Well, I'd just like to throw...Thoughts?

Yes, any thoughts on...The question that Grant asked is something I actually address in the book, because there has always been a sense, particularly with the wartime history of monarchy and then Elizabeth's reign and the way this country developed, to see...as a bulwark against, in particular, fascism.And I think it's a really good question to be asking at this point in time.

Do you know what I didn't say to him was that the person in particular came up and said, I asked him about the Queen, I said, did you like a late Queen.I showed this video and she was crying and it made her realise how important the late Queen was to the country.Even though she was a Republican, it did make her realise how important the late Queen was, which I thought was an interesting comment.

One of the things that is very clear, and I don't want to get too far off the topic here, but we have in this country, as in many others, democratic systems that are not keeping up, are not robust enough in the face of the kinds of changes that we're seeing with deep fakery and AI and all of those things.And so I think for me, one of the things I'd like, I think it's always good to have a good Republican movement in any, you know, to have good opposition movements in any country, but it needs to kind of understand where we are and how dangerous this moment is.

Yeah, I think that's absolutely right.And look, the concept of a monarchy is absolutely bonkers.

Well, it is, isn't it?If you just landed in this planet and you thought, what do you mean?You've got a head of state that's not out here, not hereditary.

This is my point, Jo.So it's a crazy idea on paper.You wouldn't do it now.If you created a brand new country, you wouldn't just choose a family and then you are head of state forever.However, it's one of those eccentric ideas that a bit, perhaps, like the House of Lords.On paper, it's not entirely logical.

but it works.

That's where the demographic gap comes in and that's where the relevance about the children being on show.This is an institution that can only add to itself either by marrying or reproducing.which by the way for people in its ranks make that, with most people in the public eye, unless they're doing something really dodgy behind closed doors, they are allowed a private life.That question of where public interest ends is really difficult, particularly for the women.

I mean, Graham went so far, didn't he, to say that the Prince and Princess of Wales are exploiting their children.Jo, I don't think they are, because I think they're doing it on their terms.

They're showcasing the future of the monarchy, is what I think they are.Which they have to do.It's the gig.But it's a really difficult...

It is the gig, and it's the one that Harry rejected.They don't have any choice at that point, do they?No.

But can I say, I mean, just from that point of view, if you think how weird, you know, I call it Planet Windsor, if you think how strange that life is, how opinioned you are, you can, you know, I don't find it surprising that people would want to run for it.I've run from it.I find it really surprising people would want to join it.

I suppose like, you know, doing this job and having covered Royals for many years now, as an Australian, I've sort of like, you know, I have one foot in the Republican camp for a long time.But, you know, I've really come to respect the power of the soft diplomacy and I've really come to understand there is a value to the royal family.It is an expensive value for the taxpayer, but actually, on the whole, not.

Look at what they bring us.I sort of am in that camp, but I have to say that what's gone on with Andrew Mountbatten -Windsor, who, of course, I was, you know, I accompanied him on his first ever trade mission to China.We'll be getting to that.Yeah, we can't wait.But, you know, it means that I think Which is also, by the way, part of why I find it so hard to understand the levels of animosity directed to Harry and Meghan, because nothing that anyone else has done seems to me anything like as damaging to the institution.And it's the first thing that is really made, because, you know,

I did see it up, the institution up close.I saw all the things that Charles did as Prince of Wales.I understood the value to them, even as I was, my kind of American born head was going, you know, what the hell, this makes no sense at all.But I think that, I think that the moment that there are such serious questions, not just around his own conduct, but around a culture of impunity that gives...Well, I think Andrew Manbat in Windsor is a big problem.

And you're not wrong about the demographic time bomb either.I think these are all really good points.And it's going to be a challenge for William with his slimmed down project.So, you know, there are many question marks that lie ahead.And we think it's a crazy idea.But what is the alternative?

some clapped out ex -politician as president that no one's heard of, that doesn't open doors when they travel overseas.Look at King Charles' state visit to the United States.It was a diplomatic triumph.And I think to choose a family, and just to say randomly, it's going to be you for generation after generation, on paper, strange, but it works.

See, I think this is the thing about William also.I think he sees it as, as you just said about this plan at Windsor, I think he doesn't definitely would see it as a very old -fashioned system, which is why I think he wants to do this modern approach with it.I mean, even the coronation, I love the coronation.But can I say, even seeing the king with the crown and everything, it just seemed so strange when you were watching it.And it is like something out of, can I say, an American reality show or something, or a drama or something.But people love that.

They love all that.I think the thing about William, though, is he's aware that comes across and I think that's why he wants to do this modernisation thing, that's why he wants to change it.

Okay, well Grant that leads me beautifully into this whole idea of Prince George going to Eton because we've had to -ing and fro -ing on this.Do you want to tell us how you called it?Okay, we called it, we called it.This is a team effort.We called it on this show.We did say that it was going to be Eton.

I think behind the scenes, everything I've heard is that Princess Catherine and Prince William really did flip -flop between it.And I think they were uncertain about it because on the one hand - Were they really?On the one hand, by sending George to Eton, Catherine, this feeds into everything you write about the patriarchy in your book.You are sending out a message about the establishment, about the Old Boys Club, about Eton breeding leaders.Would a more sensible decision have been to have sent him to a co -ed school?Mark, I don't know whether you think they could have just sent him to a bog -standard state school.

How that would have gone down.But when Grant's talking about William wanting to do royalty in the small r, is going to Eton?the right place for George to go?

I think William and Catherine want to be modern parents.They want the children to have a degree of privacy.And notwithstanding trooping the colour and the birthday portraits, I think they have kept their three children under wraps, by contrast to their relatives in California, in my opinion.And I think it's been very discreet how they've raised the kids.And clearly, there's a dilemma regarding schooling for George.at some point going to become king of the country.

There are security issues.I think their hand has been forced.I think they would have loved to have sent George to the local comp.

Do you really?I'm not sure.I think William was always set on Eton.I think William always wanted Eton for George.

Then perhaps Catherine.But security quite close to the Windsor estate, which is going to be nice.And I think also boarding is important because it's just that continuity in George's life that he's in one place, given the, you know, incredibly sort of bright spotlight that shines on the royal family.I think boarding, I think Eton, this ancient institution is probably the safest place, not just physically but emotionally.

Has any futuremonarch been to a co -ed school?

I mean, that would have been quite something, wouldn't it?Alderson is now co -ed.Is it?Yeah, yeah.But wasn't at the time.He wasn't at the time.

No, but I wonder if that was ever under discussion.I think too far away up in Scotland.Also, given the stories out of it, but it's apparently very changed now.

But, Catherine, I mean, you do, you write about the patriarchy, you write about the power of the women.behind the throne in your book, which I found absolutely fascinating.And I think, you know, I think you're absolutely right, whether it's the King having the strength of the Queen behind him, William having that power of Catherine behind him.I think this might have been one of the few, I'm told it's a joint decision, the Eaton decision, but I think it might be one of the few moments when William got his way over Catherine, when it came to parenting, and that's where she really does wear the trousers.But do you think it's sending out the wrong message?

Well, I was going to say, I mean, in terms of who wears the trousers there, you know, which of them had the stable background?Which of them knows what a good childhood looks like?

Which of them was most anchored with loving parents and a family that stuck together?

So, you know, one of the most sensible things has done has been to listen to her on those things.Absolutely.And you know, I mean, in terms of what you're saying about the exposure of children and whatever, one of the things I also write about in the book is her extreme cleverness and I think possibly is an art history graduate in curating the images that they put out, in actually protecting their privacy by proactively creating imagery that she controls and putting that out.But in terms of Ethan as an artist,yes, but it's a bad message within the context of an elite institution that, you know, it's hardly a byword for being progressive.So I don't, it's really hard to think what else they were going to do.

And, and the, what, you know, One of the sad things with the Bourne Royals is they have very few moments, they always talk about normality, I mean Harry did that a lot when he was in his first interviews as a much younger man.They were always on the search for something that felt like normal life.I noticed that with Charles, always trying to connect, always trying to do things like go and live in Crofter's cottages, because he imagined that that would be a normal life.And they find it in the strangest places.They're not going to find it at Eton, I would say.No, no, but they will think that that, because at least the sort of hierarchical organisation of it, the way it works, it means that they can stop being for a minute and be a pupil and be addressed by the surname and same as in the army in the military.

They are fitting into a hierarchy but one where I mean I'm told there was no special treatment for Prince George but the academic assessment was one that he had to do it didn't matter that he was going to be a future king he had to pass those exams and by the way he's apparently pleased as Punch, the parents are pleased, and we wish him all the best.September's going to be an important month.And of course, it also makes us think about, well, it certainly makes me think about Princess Charlotte, because these two have been together all these years.She's so much been the support act for Prince George.And yet, I couldn't help notice that Trooping, not just how much George has shot up now in growth, but he seems so confident.He seems so independent now.

And Grant, what do you think about the relationshipbetween the two of them and how they'll find that, I suppose, being separated for the first time?

Yeah, absolutely.I mean, I think they're obviously very close.All three of them are close.I think George and Charlotte have definitely got quite a strong bond.I don't know if it was yourselves I was speaking to saying that, for me, and I know they're still young, but it reminds me a bit of Princess Anne's relationship with the King.Because they were always very close, the two of them, and very much now are very close.

And it's almost a little bit of history repeating between the two of them.I think she'll be an amazing support for him.And I'm sure she'll miss him, you know, the fact that he'll be eating.Can I also say, I remember, William loved his time at Eton.He told me about it.And he's the best out of the board and everything.

He loved every second of it.And I'm sure that would be what, for little George, he'd be thinking, he'll have the best time of his life, you know, and a lot of his friends probably are going to go there.I'm sure he's got other connections there.He's not too far away if he wants to pop in and see his grandfather and have a cup of tea, like what he used to do with the Queen.So there's so many positives to it.

I'm curious about where it does leave Charlotte and her schooling and her role as what will be the Spare has always been a bit problematic historically.But to your point, Catherine, is it that, you know, with all our hopes for a progressive look at what education looks like for a royal.Rest with her and do you see her becoming like a rock?for George the same way that Anne has been for Charles?

Possibly, but I mean, at this age, it is so difficult to tell.And also, you know, when you're talking about William and Harry at the equivalent age, their parents' marriage was disintegrating.You know, so one of the other things about them being at boarding school and loving being at boarding school was it was a refuge for them.And, you know, one would hope that we have here two children, three children rather, who are not going to have the same terrible external stresses on them.But, you know, I think it's, I don't know.I would not speculate about that because I just don't know but I what I do know in the point I one of the points I was making about the women is it's really funny because you know you've had and until very recently male primogeniture, you know, that was only abolished in 2013.

And you have had any way a cultural preference for the idea of kings over queens.And yet, when you look through history, the most popular monarchs are female.George V is the only male monarch to even feature in the tops of the rankings, and that's because of the war.And you have the You have this problem now.It's not just the demographic gap.You have an all -male line of succession.

And, you know, Charlotte there, you know, you hope that she doesn't come to the throne because people would have to die for that to happen.But, I mean, what a role model she has in Anne.

I know exactly what you mean because, actually, if I had my way, Anne would be the queen.of the United Kingdom because I just worship the woman.She never stops.I just think she's an amazing lady and I think she would have been a wonderful queen and I think she's a chip off the old block in terms of her mother, by the way.And her father.And her father.

What about little Louis?Is he going to be Harry 2 .0 then?What's his role?

Well, he's definitely looking quite cheeky but he's so young.He's so young.

I'm not looking forward to him growing up and being sensible.No, I know.

I couldn't help but think how quickly they were growing up.

We love his antics on the balcony, don't we?It's adorable.

I think he's a little bit like Prince Philip, actually.Everyone says about Hardy, but I think, because Prince Philip was known for his kind of, you know, that kind of did things unexpectedly, as we know, and I kind of wonder if he's got a little bit...

Do you think they'll try to keep Louis away from American actresses?Is that going to happen?family edict?

I think that'll be an automatic thing, isn't it?

Well, I mean, we were talking earlier about, you know... what a weird thing the royal family is.And there's never more showcasing things like this week's Royal Order of the Garter.Oh, yes.This is a 700 -year -old.We know William's not a fan of that big plume, but I sure am.I can't think why not.

It's absolutely fantastic.There was all the pageantry, the etiquettes of, like, you know, that leading procession into St George's Chapel.And, of course, Royal Ascot this week as well.Absolutely stunning -looking pictures there from The Royal Procession.I absolutely loved Princess Catherine's Roxanda.Bright yellow.

There's the Queen and King looking very happy on that sunny day.Not jealous that I wasn't there.It's very, very, very hot.But we love it.I just would love to know more about, you know, what is it like, Ascot?What is the etiquette and what is this story about a royal being turned away?

Well, here's the thing.So the royal family, obviously, the relationship with Ascot goes on for many decades.The royals love going there.The Queen I think Famous used to kind of say it was one of the highlights of the year for her, was obviously because of the horse racing.But I'm loving this story about her granddaughter, Zara Tindall, who was obviously in attendance and apparently, while trying to get into the Royal Enclosure, was turned away because, I don't know if it was because she didn't have the name badge or she wasn't recognised, but I find this extraordinary that here you've got a granddaughter of the Queen, the niece of the king, who's got every right, most of the most people to be in that area, and gets refused entry.

And you just know that Zara would not pull the, do you know who I am card.

She'd have gone off to the village and probably gone and had a pint.

Yeah, she'd have grabbed Mike and she'd be like, it's much more fun outside of the Royal Enclosure.

Much more fun.Guinness tent.Kick the shoes off, the hat off, and just have a Guinness.Yeah.

And now let's have a look at the prize.Princess of Wales.Looks absolutely smashing.And I know I complain about Catherine complaining about not wanting us to know all about her fashion and what she's wearing.

Well, you'd recognize this one, Jo, wouldn't you?

I mean, stopping traffic or what, I absolutely love.And I think she plays an important part in terms of fashion.And Catherine, you call her, in your book, the ultimate image maker.to discuss that.It is important, isn't it?

But also that outline she has.I have no idea, you know, what designer she's wearing, but in a way it's irrelevant.It's Roxanne de Ilinsink.Is it?Yes.But what it also is, is 1940s silhouette.

And basically, as we will remember, when she was first in the royal family, even post -marriage, she was still wearing things above the knee, she was still wearing things that people considered, you know, would criticize.She was getting quite a lot of criticism as the Duchess of Drab at one point.And she then metamorphosed into always wearing that line as a daydress, understanding that it did, and it's not just a fashion thing, though it is a fashion thing, it's something that wins fashion approval, but it is timeless.It is, even though it's rooted in the 40s, it's timeless.

And I also think that she's moved towards a lot of what the Queen used to do in sort of like that colour blocking, that really bright look.So yes, she's got that silhouette and we've come to predict that.But I do find myself thinking...But it works.

The Queen used to wear those colours to be seen.She used to say, you know, to be seen.And when I saw Katherine Walker, I thought, wow, one, stunning, beautiful, timeless, but also I thought, everyone is going to spot her quite easily.And it's exactly what the late Queen used to do.

But women in the public eye, all, you know, if you look at female politicians, they always struggle with this as well, because, you know, like you two are sitting here,in the seats.

We're lucky, we get the easy job.

I'm sitting here in something totally ridiculous because I, you know.You look fabulous.But the reason that what women then are often the most successful is when they find the thing that works for them and turn it into a kind of uniform, like a suit.So, even though her Roxanda...What was it, Roxanda...?Ilinsink.

Which she's worn three times.She's the queen of recycling, too.

She's a brilliant British designer.Even though that's very high fashion in some ways, it's also a uniform because it's her shape and, you know...And it's like Angela Merkel and her pantsuit, only it looks a lot better.

You've got any strong fashion opinions?

Well, I've got some hand suits at home.I wasn't going to wear one today because I didn't want to upstage all of you.Thank goodness, because we know you're capable.I think they've all got a strong visual image.I've always admired the King's dress sense.Yes.

I think he's a very, very elegant man.He was once called one of the best -dressed men.I think it was one of these...GQ.GQ magazine.

He really cares about sustainability and, you know, wearing things that last forever.Princess Anne is the same.

He has a pair of shoes.Can I say, the King's got a jacket, and I remember that, you know what I'm going to say, this jacket, I used to take it to have it repaired.More patched than a jacket.Exactly, near Highgrove, I used to take it.I still go to the same chap, and I said to him recently, I was in there having some repair of mine, and I said, do you still have to fix that jacket?He said, yes.

And he's been fixing this jacket for, you know, 30 odd years.

But you'll know the shoes I'm talking about.

Yeah, they get repaired over and over.

He has the most beautiful, they are actually really beautiful to look at, but they are the most repaired shoes and he wears them all the time.

And the Queen is very elegant too.I think Camilla is a very attractive woman.

Didn't she look amazing at Troop Nicola?

Oh, she looked so good.And did you notice that afterthey married, that she became more prominent in her outfits?I wouldn't say up the game, because that would be judgmental.

No one has a better hat game than Camilla.

Right.

That's the hill I will die on.Do you like Ascot, do you go?

I do.I used to go.My parents are Irish, and so gambling and the horses are in the blood.And it's a really amazing occasion, I've got to say.And it is open to the public.People think it's very elite.

Actually, if you get in early with your early -bird tickets, it's an amazing day out.

It is.It's an amazing day out.I used to commentate for ITV Racing on that carriage procession, and it was just always the most wonderful spectacle of hats and fashions.But also, Grant, there is a very strict etiquette and dress code and do's and don'ts if you're in the Royal Enclosure, because it is...a place of two worlds, Aska, as Joe will testify.

It's one of those things you really have to Google hard before you get dressed.Absolutely.

And I mean, I say that to people, if you're not sure, Aska, which is fantastic, now gives you the full details.You can check everything for the modern suits, for the gentlemen, for the ladies, the day dresses.But it even gives you the exact measurements of the hats, what the classes of fascinator.And how wide your straps should be.About nothing off the shoulder, obviously below the knee.There's all these kind of rules.

And another one you might not know, which I'm fascinated about, is obviously the top hats.Because I'm thinking with top hats, I mean, obviously, it must be annoying having to take them on and off all the time.But in the Royal Box, for example, the gentlemen do remove the hats when they're in there or if they go to one of the restaurants.Otherwise, elsewhere, they've got to keep them on the whole time.Where ladies, you have to have your hats on...Well, I say you have to, but you normally keep them on the whole entire day.

That's because they're so difficult to put on once they're on.You're not taking them off.The only time you can remove it is, I think it's after 6pm in the evening, which is when you put your tiaras on, if you're married.

I just don't know how these Royals do it.I hate wearing hats.I hate it.Love wearing a tiara, though.Yeah, well, I've never tried it.Maybe one day.

I'm afraid that's it for me.this week.I'm very disappointed because it's been brilliant chatting to you.Thanks to our guests, Catherine Mayer, Mark Dolan and Graham Smith.If you haven't already, please do think about liking and subscribing on YouTube.And we've got some very exciting news for our UK followers.

From next week, The Royals Uncensored is launching on good old -fashioned proper analogue television.Yay!With Channel 5.So keep your eyes peeled for all the details of that.And we will see you next week on The Royals Uncensored.