Starmer doomed as John Healey quits in almighty row over defence spending | The Daily T

How much more humiliation can Keir Starmer take?John Healey resigns from the government, accusing it of failing to invest in defence.

We have Reform UK's Danny Kruger in the studio as the story breaks.He also reflects on a secret poll suggesting that Rupert Lowe is going to cost his party the by -election in Makefield.

Fundamentally, it's a political problem that the bulk of the Labour Party will not commit to the changes that are needed, which is why it doesn't matter who becomes prime minister if Starmer goes, because this government cannot, this party, Labour, cannot make the decisions that are necessary.

Tim, Danny Kruger is in the studio.Hi Danny.We're getting on to talk about all sorts of things, reform and Makefield and otherwise related.But before we do that, there's a massive event that's starting tonight.What is it, Tim Stanley?You're starter for 10.

Football.

Ah, that's because you read the brief.You don't know a thing about this.

You know, if I had not read this brief, I honestly wouldn't know it was beginning tonight.

OK, it's called the World Cup.I'm not a complete idiot.I know.

Yeah.

All right.Can you name any England players that are in the team?

Is Jack Grealish in the team?

No.

I thought that was going to look good.

That was really good.

And I love that you pick out Grealish.Where's he gone?

I thought he was...Well, he got dropped.I know there's a debate about that.Another question.Is Cole Palmer in the team?

Cole Porter.

Cole Palmer.

I don't know.

No, he isn't.And that's also controversial.Now, we've done an office sweepstake.Can I just say how appalled I am to look at the production staff, to see how many people have already hoovered up the best teams.So we're now going to select a team to be in the sweepstake.You go first.

Apparently France is still here.Danny, can you see what's happened here?Everyone's taken all the good ones and we're left with the crud.Well, you've got France.We've got France.

Uh, okay.

Right.Yeah, unveil it on air.

Um, I've got...

Egypt!Right.Well, good luck with that.Just to explain to those only listening that we've got a big jar here and it's got about three different pieces of paper in because the entire team has hoovered them all up.Please get from...Danny, speak French.

Just...Is Egypt any good?

This is..

.No, no it isn't.Oh my God, guess who I've got?Have you got France?No, come on.

I don't know who's left.

I've got Haiti.

Really?Well, good for them for getting into it.Yeah, that's right.By the way, does everyone get into it?

I tell you what, they're going to get out of it pretty bloody quickly.

There's Vanuatu in this thing.

All right, Danny, you're big.Danny's being invited.Has Danny paid his quid?Oh, God.If Danny now gets France...

I'm not paying a pound for Egypt.

Go on then, Kruger, dip in.You're not allowed to South Africa.It's not there, I'm sure.

I've got to tell you, Camilla...It's France.

Oh, well done!For the love of God!

Well, I will buy that.They were going for £1.I'm going to buy it off you for £2.Is that a deal, Danny Kruger?

It's a deal.I think I should be in there.I will say, to bring us on to politics, This is the only way that people from Haiti or Egypt are ever going to get into the United States.

Well, they can get into England, alright, if they just come on a boat, even with a football in their hand.

They'll be fine.

Just arrive at Doha.

There has been a bit of a problem this year, hasn't it, that the United States, which is one of the hosts, it's hosting with Mexico and Canada.Yes.

Good knowledge, Tim, did you read that in the brief?

Is at war.with some of the countries that are competing, including Iran, who have been forced to train instead in Mexico.

Mexico, where my brother is, by the way.My brother has gone out there for three weeks.

Oh, good for him.

Yes, he's in a sombrero.And he's gone to Mexico.Yes, he's going to Mexico to take in the atmosphere.

I think of the three, I would choose Mexico.

Yes, I agree.

Yeah.And meanwhile, immigration have had issues with players from Somalia.Yes.And also from Iraq.

Yeah, that figures, right?So we've gotSomali referee who was denied entry to the US.We've got an Iraqi striker who was questioned for several hours at Chicago airport.And we've got Iran having been forced to switch their base to Mexico.Fans have been told all their tickets cancelled by US authorities.

Right.So this brings us nicely to our guest, Danny Kruger.John Healy's just resigned, Danny Kruger.Let's get your immediate reaction.I've just got that in my ear.This is live.

This is live news happening.

Well, I have no idea why.

Can I guess why?Can I guess why?Because he is asking for defence spending and Rachel Reeves is denying him the funding that he wants.It's humiliating him.We did a story yesterday saying Ed Miliband saying, no, you can't take away from my net zero budget.The prime minister isn't defending the defence secretary and he's had enough and we've got this defence spending plan that was meant to have been published two years ago.

What's it called?The investment review?

Defence investment plan.Well, the strategic defence review came out a year ago.That's right.The money was due and we've been waiting all this time.And I guess that is probably exactly what's happened.And it reflects the absolute paralysis this government's in because they are fundamentally not committed to defence.

And the defence chiefs have been saying there's a 28 % billion pound hole in the defence budget.And it looks like defence ministers have been trying to get the money and have failed.

So this is all about, I think, John Healey taking a stand because he believes his own government is spending money on welfare, not warfare.However, with your previous hat on, it's also on the Tories watch this, isn't it?It's an easy win.for the Labour Party to say, well, we inherited a legacy of underspending and underdefending this country.They wouldn't be wrong, notwithstanding your good friend Ben Wallace's repeated calls for more money.And actually, he was quite successful towards the end of his tenure.

Well, that's right.So after 2019, there was an increase in defence spending.But it is also true that over the 14 years of Tory government, there were net cuts to defence.And by the time the Conservatives left office, there were a number of defence projects still unfunded.So that is a legitimate criticism from Labour.But I'm afraid the real responsibility rests with them because clearly things had to change radically.

I've got some more detail.John Healey has resigned as Defence Secretary over Keir Starmer's defence investment plan.He has accused the Prime Minister of failing to quote meet the moment over his long delayed proposal to boost the military.So Keir is expected to set out details of the plan as soon as tomorrow but it is thought to have been watered down following a row between number 10 the ministry of defense and the treasury thank you i called it in a letter to secure mr healy said the defense investment plan quotes falls well short of what is required for defense and the country at a dangerous time he added without a dip defence investment plan.Secretary has resigned because we're not stumping enough cash, even though there are two wars going on, one in Europe and one in the Middle East.It's not a great look.

Well, if you're being cynical, Healey can take the risk of resigning because there's a good chance that the Prime Minister will be replaced in a few months' time by Andy Burnham, who might like to make a commitment that Keir Starmer won't make.It's also really bad for that reason for Keir Starmer.I mean, you mentioned international, but domestically, he was hoping he could ride out the next few months.Maybe Burnham comes back, but by that point, everyone's tired of talking about the leadership and they choose to keep Keir on.But this is one more blow to his leadership.I mean, this is really bad.

But Burnham's not going to be minded to spend more on defence.He's just said he's going to give 10 billion quid to the WASPI women.

But what's different about this is Wes Streeting's resignation was over personality.This is over policy.

OK.Right.There's another quote.You have been unable, this is from Healy, you have been unable and the Treasury has been unwilling to commit the resources that nations need to defend the country at the time of rising threats.So this is about Reeves, this is about Starmer, this is about a degree of spinelessness.I wonder if this affects things in Makerfield for you, Danny Kruger, because As far as the country's concerned, I realise it's never an easy political argument to make to spend more on defence rather than carrying on handing out benefits like Smarties.

However, people are so cognisant right now of just how much peril the world is in.Therefore, if you could ever make an argument for more spending, you make it now.And yet the Prime Minister and the Chancellor are not making that argument for spending.And that's why John Healey's left.

Nigel and I and the rest of reform have been saying for months that we need to cut welfare significantly in order to finance defence meaningfully and we've set out some proposals to do that and I spoke last week about the new model of defence and security that we need, which by the way does include our domestic politics, and we'll no doubt get on to it, but the story of Northern Ireland is significant too, because the other great weakness we have is not just the failure to resource our armed forces properly, it's the failure to control our borders.And there was a very interesting piece by the government's anti -terroristczar this morning, Jonathan Hall, who, you know, an independent man responsible for our security architecture, saying that the open border that we have with the Republic of Ireland is a direct security threat and lacks immigration rules.So I think Speaking of make a field, these issues that concern people across the country about migration do have a security dimension.And now when we look at our state of our own forces, I also find on the doorstep and in my constituency as well, in Wiltshire, a real concern about the underfunding of defense over many years, and the failure of the government to step up.And it's very interesting that quote from Healy, he's saying the prime minister is unable to commit the resources that the country needs.

I mean, that is absolutely damning, isn't it?I mean, this is the man with, ultimate control of the government and of the purse trade.

Is he saying that because they're hamstrung economically because there's no money left, to quote Liam Byrne?Or is he saying that as in he's unable because he's being held hostage by Labour backbenchers who want more on welfare?

He is politically unable to do what is needed.So he is, as we've all recognised in recent months, a kind of zombie prime minister going through the motions.And usually zombie prime ministers go through the motions internationally, as you've been saying.I mean, that's where Keir Starmer feels most comfortable.But the reality is he's unable to represent the United Kingdom meaningfully and forcefully on the international stage because we have no defence to bring to the table and the crisis here is yes it's one of a fiscal problem that the government has because of their commitments on welfare and everything else.But fundamentally, it's a political problem that the bulk of the Labour Party will not commit to the changes that are needed, which is why it doesn't matter who becomes prime minister if Starmer goes, because this government cannot, this party, Labour, cannot make the decisions that are necessary.

Chaps, bear with me a minute while I look at the Telegraph Live blog, which is the font of all knowledge on John Healey's resignation.Robert Jenrick has praised John Healey saying.The government has all the money in the world for Ed Miliband's mad plans, foreign aid and benefits for foreigners, but nothing for our armed forces.Good on John Healey, shame on them.Reeves and Starmer should go too.And with them, this wretched Labour government.

Have you actually put a figure on how much of GDP you would spend in reform on defence?

Well, we're committed to the 3 .5 % that NATO is requesting by the end of the next Parliament, and certainly 3 % by the end of this Parliament.But if I may quickly say, it's not about the overall spending, although we desperately need more money, it's about the way we spend it.And again, I'm afraid that the Labour government has completely failed to fix procurement, so we're wasting billions even as we're not actually doing anything.raising enough money.

What do you know of John Healey?I mean, he has been somewhat in the background.Everyone's got quite a lot of respect for him.He seems a decent guy.He doesn't seem to be particularly tribal when it comes to his politics.Do you know him well?

What's the man's character?

I don't know.I mean, he seems a very decent man. I'm afraid the problem, though, with all Labour ministers, and it was Conservative ministers before them, is they're not really in charge.So the ministers are sent out with a brief to defend the government's position.The real decisions are being made, particularly in the defence space, by a group of unelected officials, the permanent secretaries and the defence chiefs, who meet on Wednesday mornings on their own to set the agenda for the National Security Council, which the politicians attend later in the week.In a sense, I can kind of imagine what's happened here, which is that Healy is just his patience is snapped with the whole system Yes, clearly Starmer is not setting a direction Reeves is not finding the money But that's probably because the officials underneath them all in the Treasury in number 10 in the MOD Are saying this is the way it's got to beso we need to have we need to have politicians who are properly in control.

Also it's going to be difficult now who replaces him obviously Al Khans, who's somebody who's been mooted as a future leader.Yeah, he's armed.He's armed forces minister, but no, will he because he's a former military man, and he won't want to step up if there isn't any money because then that will tarnish his own reputation.

As far as we're aware, Khans hasn't even seen the defence investment plan that's being prepared.Because as I say, the ministers are not really running the show here.So it'd be interesting to see if he suddenly had a quick look at it and said that he's prepared to defend this in public and to launch it as defence secretary.I suspect he won't, because I mean, I think Tim's right that while all respect to Healey for standing up for his principles, it is rather convenient that it happens months before there's a chance of a leadership challenge for Labour.And I suspect Carnes will have that same calculation.

He doesn't want to be tarnished with the disaster of the Starmer government.The money that reform would put into defence is going to come in some part from cracking down on benefits that migrants enjoy.What about British people?

Well, we've committed to £9 billion of cuts from the welfare budget, of which about half is from the UK.welfare that's currently given to non -British nationals, and the other half is from reductions in entitlement for people with mild mental health conditions.

Is nine billion enough, Danny?

No, it's not enough.It's a start.It's a start.So we've demonstrated that there is money right there available now, but the real way to cut welfare is to reform the system.It's not just a salami slice of the entitlements.Clearly, we think there are people who shouldn't be getting benefits now who we can identify.

But the way to deliver meaningful welfare reform is to change the system itself.Again, that's something that we are working on.And of course, without getting into an economic debate here, we need growth to create the jobs that people will want to go into.And that's the fundamental problem we have, is that welfare pays better than work at the moment.

But a week out from the by -election.I mean Healey has attempted to blow the Prime Minister up in this, hasn't he?

He has, and you've got Novak, you've got the story in Northern Ireland and now you've got this.And in an ordinary by -election, in that seat, with its 65 % of people voting leave, you'd imagine reform would be absolutely walking this.But the dynamic is different against Burnham, isn't it?

Well, the You know, it is an extraordinary by -election.And you've got people who are always going to vote Labour no matter what.And then you've got another bunch of people who want Starmer out, and they know the way to do that is to vote Burnham.But I don't accept, as I've said, this is not the answer.Clearly, the way to change the government properly, the change that we need is a different party in power.And if Bernie wins this by -election and takes over as Labour leader, we will be in exactly the same position we're in now.

Well, you'll be in a worse position then.Reform to be defeated in a 65 % pro -leave seat, especially in light of some of Nigel Farage's protestations about the recent events, Novak and in Belfast, cognisant of the fact that that seat is 97 % white.You know, unfortunately, you've got Rupert Low up there, according to a secret poll, polling far higher than anybody in the Reform Party has ever suggested he might.eating your lunch?

Well, I don't.I mean, the secret poll, I presume, restore behind that secret poll.

So they're doing it if they get above 3 % in Makefield, they could cost you the seat.It doesn't need to be a high figure.

Listen, I'm not going to speculate on the outcome other than to say this is a seat that we can win.And if the people of Makefield want to change, there's only one way to do that and voting for other parties.That's, you know, Do not have any realistic chance of winning that election I'm afraid is an indulgence that I don't think people but this is my only point is we were in make a field earlier this year

and we're putting out a Makefield special, a by -election special tomorrow on Friday.Do listen out for it.We were up there and a couple of things happened.First of all, we've met a very sensible Restore supporter who had been backing Nigel Farage and then sort of started suggesting he didn't find him trustworthy anymore.I don't know if it had anything to do with the Harborne donation.He just said he preferred Rupert Lowe.

And then second of all, we had a number of reform voters who wouldn't admit to doing so on camera.OK, so you might get some shy voters when it's a secret ballot supporting you.But third of all, I was standing there thinking, good God, Rupert Lowe of all people could cost you this seat and it is a seminal seat because if you beat Burnham in Makefield you can say to the country you can beat him in the country and this is all Nigel Farage's fault because he couldn't manage Rupert Lowe.I mean come on.

Well listen the fallout between Nigel and Rupert predated my time in the party and I don't know the ins and outs of their relationship but clearly it didn't work.The problem is that Rupert was not prepared to accept Nigel's leadership.I'm afraid to say, you know, and without attacking him personally, because I think that's a bad idea, because it just invites people who might be inclined to follow him to think we're attacking them, you know, restore votes to decent people.But the fact is, there is only one possible chance to save our country.And I think serious people should take this, particularly in Makefield, should take this vote with the seriousness that it deserves.We have the chance here, as you say, to demonstrate that reform can win anywhere.

I think it would be an amazing achievement if we did, by the way.This is a heavily Labour area.Traditionally, forever, it has been Labour, notwithstanding the Brexit vote.People have continued to vote Labour despite that in recent parliamentary elections.So it would be an extraordinary turn up.We are up against this real challenge that, you know, this is an opportunity to to get rid of Starmer by bringing Burnham in, which is a frustration for us, because we would like just to be running against the Labour Party.

entirely.I think we have a decent chance of winning it.I was very impressed by the people I met on the doorstep who are thinking seriously about their responsibilities to the country now.And as I say, voting for anybody but reform is an indulgence that the country can't afford.

Well, people might not vote Conservative in that seat, but there's still a sizable proportion of people in the country who do intend to do that.And the big story today is clearly going to be in defence, which has taken us by surprise.But Kemi Badenock, to her credit, was ahead of it.She asked about that at PMQs, and she seems to have spotted what the next big issue was going to be.Given that under her leadership, the Tory party has reconciled itself to leaving the ECHR, taking a much tougher stance on things like immigration, Is there a part of you that regrets leaving the party, given that it's become closer to the thing that you always wanted the Tories to be?

Reform has made the Conservative Party see sense and I left because I didn't believe that there was a chance of them forming the next government and even if they did I don't think they will be able to govern well because they're so fundamentally split internally.It's true that Kemi has been able to paper over some of those cracks and has delivered because on the basis of the clear evidence from the polls and public opinion of what voters on the right want, they want what reform are offering.So in terms of getting ahead of the issues, no, Nigel Farage was well ahead of Kemi on all of those issues and the fact that they are now following us is good.credit to us.I'm afraid it doesn't justify support for the Conservatives.I am glad to say that we now have some greater consensus on the right about what needs to happen but I'm afraid the fundamentals remain that only reform can win, only reform is united, only reform has a leader who's been proved over many years on these issues and people on the right who want to change the government and want to save our country need to support us.

Although reform doesn't have eitherdefence spokesperson or indeed a foreign affairs one.

Well, we don't have lots of spokespeople yet.

We're still building up.Why don't you?I mean, it's so important.

Well, it is important and we will in due course, but we're still some way out from an election.

Also.

Well, let me finish.We have a small parliamentary team.We are assembling a wide range of experts who are advising us, including, by the way, on foreign policy and defence.I set out some principles that we're approaching that question on in a speech last week.There's a number of very significant developments underway in terms of policy.work in this space and you know the fact is we have been saying for many months in fact years in fact I'm it's a point I made to Kemi personally when I was still in the Tory party we need to switch the focus from welfare to defense that should be our big that should be the big narrative it wasn't under the Tory party reform have been saying it for some time now the Tories are too which is good that's what the country needs I think we are leading this debate and Nigel I'm glad to say is our spokesperson on foreign affairs and defense in due course we'll be announcing who will from that work as we approach the election and I hope be our Defence Secretary.

OK, but you say you're united.Are you?Because we keep on hearing about Zia Yousaf.not necessarily enjoying the company of the Conservatives in his midst, let's just put it like that.He had a public row with Robert Jenrick about your deportation policy.We then have Rupert Lowe pointing out to his own electorate that when it comes to this situation in Belfast with this alleged attacker, that we have to say alleged obviously because the proceedings are active, that he was let in via the back door allegedly on Suella Braverman and Robert Jenrick's watch.

So you've got some in reform.

Not that they personally drove him across the border.

No, indeed, but they were in the Home Office when it happened.

Right.

So I know because I hear these things that you have got a bit of a divide, haven't you, in your party, betweenthe original reformers and the conservatives.And I've spoken to a couple of original reformers who don't seem to like conservatives.They really, really want to punish them.They really want revenge.They want the destruction of the Tory party.

And I think I'd include Yusuf in that.

And someone else who brings this up is Restore Voters.They do say, we're not comfortable with the fact that it's become a retired home for Tories.And I don't think they include you in that, by the way.Not because they don't think you're a Tory, but because I don't think the perception with you is that you've made this choice out of a sense of what's good for you personally.But I think some people feel that that's what was, some Tories.

So there's not, I don't think there's a divide in the party.There's a spectrum.And certainly there's an element of the party that Zia represents and many of our supporters on the ground and our members, which is, you know, they are very, very angry with what the Tories did.I mean, so am I to be blunt.So is Suella and Rob and the rest of us.And that's why we left.

And then by the way, on the question of the immigration policy back in 2023, again, the reason Rob and Suella left the government was because Rishi Sunak and his cabinet would not accept the changes that were needed that would stop this kind of outrage of people entering our country illegally.They wanted much tougher controls and for us to exit the ECHR.So I think we've been vindicated in terms of our position on that.And as I say, reform is a spectrum.It needs to be.You know, we're on 30 % in the polls.

We're going to have a wide range of different supporters coming from different parts of the spectrum, but fundamentally we are all united on the need for radical change that is delivered seriously.Yes, that includes a bunch of people, ex -voters, ex -MPs, who are part of the Conservative Party, but as I say, it's that part of the Conservative Party that rebelled against the failures in the last Parliament.That's why we rebelled, that's why we left.And we will need a broad range of support if we are to win the next election.So,is a helpful thing, in my view, to have different sort of notes in this song.

And I recognize how much people distrust anybody who was involved in the last government.That's why Rob and the rest of us are always at pains to emphasize the opposition that we represented at the time internally, and indeed publicly.I broke the whip.a number of times against Rishi Sunak's government.So I don't accept that there is a divide in the party, but naturally enough there is a range of different players and participants in what we're doing.I think that's a healthy and a positive thing.

Let's talk about policy then.On Northern Ireland, Clearly there are going to be calls for a tougher border, but surely not a closed border because Northern Ireland is complicated.I mean, there are farms that stretch over both countries, right?And it has a history of tension between the communities.And one point of tension is the freedom of people to travel between the two areas.So what kind of border would reform like to see?

Well, it's a, it's a very topical question.I was in Northern Ireland last week as it happened before this awful attack, uh, looking at the border, both the, uh, East -West border in the Irish Sea.I crossed over on a ferry with a lorry looking at the infrastructure that exists.There's a hard border, in a sense, a customs border within the United Kingdom as you come into Belfast, which is outrageous from a unionist perspective.And then you can just, and I stood on the bridge at Newry looking over the border between the Republic and the North.Of course, nothing there at all.

Anybody can travel.And I was looking at it particularly from the perspective of goods, because it's a customs.We have a different customs arrangement to the EU.Unfortunately, Northern Ireland was left in the EU customs arrangement by Boris Johnson and Rishi Sunak.So we need to fix that.On the question of immigration, you're absolutely right.

We don't need physical infrastructure.That would be contrary to the spirit and the wording of the withdrawal agreement and the Good Friday agreement.But it is possible to havemuch more effective controls on who passes between the EU, i .e.e.the Republic, and the UK in the north.

And you can do that by all sorts of technology using biometric tests.You can be much more strict in your enforcement of the rules that do prevent people from traveling if they don't have citizenship.I mean, we have a common travel area between the Republic and the UK.Irish people and British people can come and go.illegal immigrants cannot, you know, if you're not, if you do not have the rights to be in the UK, you should not be entering it.And we can restrict that.

I think there's a big responsibility on the Irish government.And I raised that in the House of Commons yesterday to, to, to have much stricter checks.This man, we don't know yet, I believe, but it's almost certain that he came on a bus from Dublin up to Belfast up to the north.There's only a number of small number of bus stations they can get on.I think the Irish should be checking who is leaving, and certainly we should be checking who's arriving.We need to enforce the rule.

Yes, we have a soft border in the sense of no physical infrastructure that you have to pass through when you cross, but we know who's coming and going, particularly on public transport, and I think we have learnt a real lesson here.

Even if it's possible to move across that border, there's surely no obligation for Britain to allow the person, once they have crossed, to stay.

That's right.As I say, people arriving in the north, If they are not entitled to be here, they should be removed.Of course what happens because of the ECHR and our asylum rules he would have just claimed asylum looks like and That means he's here and that's the problem.We've got with the small boats you get into our country and you basically have the right to remain indefinitely, so The reform policy is get out of that legal framework so that we can instantly detain anybody who's not entitled to be here and very quickly deport them.The other thing we need to do is to is to stop the members of parliament.could stop this problem pretty quickly with a much stricter welfare regime that means you're not entitled to support.

So, you know, there is a pull factor here.Yes, it's very easy to cross the border.You don't get picked up.We should fix that.But we also need to stop the enormous magnet, which is our welfare system and the black economy, which means that people can come here and work very easily.

But of course, asylum seekers cannot work.So if they were denied welfare, what would they do?

Well, they shouldn't be here at all.So we need to stop the boats by deliberately arresting anybody who lands on our shores, detain them and deport them.If they do sneak in, you know, if they've crawled through a hedge on the Northern Irish border, for instance, they should not be entitled to public support.And if they are working illegally, they should be, again, picked up and detained.And Zia has set out some very robust measures to crack down on illegal working to ensure that people are identified and arrested and again detained and deported if they're found to be working in the black economy.

On Belfast, do you think Nigel Farage has done enough to sort of condemn the violence?There's been this call from the left blaming him for that phrase, pure cold rage, which we discussed last week.We concluded that people are entitled to feel how they want to feel and they don't need to have their rage sort of prescribed to them by the Prime Minister.But equally, we did hear from Richard Tice at the press conference yesterday condemning the violence, but this accusation that Farage is in some way sort of stoked things up.What's your reaction to that?

Well, I mean, I'm afraid this is a kind of classic tactic of the left to divert attention from the real problem.You know, these rioters and the millions of ordinary law -abiding people who are not rioting, who are furious, do not need to be told to be furious by Nigel Farage or any of us.They are furious because it's an infuriating reality that we are allowing dangerous, violent men into our country.

Some of them are mindless thugs and criminals who will just take any opportunity to burn something down.

Indeed, indeed.So we have been very clear, and I said it in the comments yesterday, Nigel said it, Richard, you know, we absolutely condemn this writing.It is deeply, deeply wrong, unacceptable.But the focus on that, and then now we've got this focus on this apparent problem of social media influencers stoking it up and the supposed link with sort of foreign billionaires who are doing it.The left are very quick to police the language, police the conversation, point the finger at political leaders, and then develop conspiracy theories about what's going on behind it, all in a way to divert our attention from the real problem and the cause of this.If we have open borders, if we have criminality tolerated in this way, we are going to have very bad behavior on the streets.

And yes, we should crack down on that bad behavior.We should think about how we can do more to prevent it.But the fundamental way to bring peace and cohesion to our country and to stop the real danger of the far right and of violence in our streets is to give everybody the sense that the government is in control and the government respects our borders and it respects our people and it will stop this outrage.That's the way to solve the problem.And yes, let's condemn the riots, absolutely.

We have another problem, which is the British people are not reproducing themselves.More people than ever are leaving it very late or only having one child.I know that you care very passionately about this and you have said that we need to make it more affordable for people to have children in this country.Won't welfare play some part in that?

Well, I certainly think a legitimate object of welfare, or rather of government support, is families.And I regret the fact that in this country particularly our tax system is so anti -family.You're taxed the same whether you have elderly parents living with you and crucially whether you have young children at home.Whereas almost every other developed country recognises your family circumstances in the tax system and it thinks you're doing a good job if you're looking after people and therefore you should be rewarded through the tax system.I think we should do that.The welfare system does recognise families

through universal credit but it's probably insufficiently generous for the people who we need to be supporting because we have such a high welfare bill for people, working age people who should be in work.So I think a fairer welfare system that will be cheaper overall allow us to make the cuts and the reinvestment in defense and in tax cuts as well that we need.I think we can have a system that is more generous to the people who need it, including the genuinely disabled, by the way, who get a pretty rough deal from the welfare system, and families, yes.And I would like us to be looking at how we can support people to have more children and to make it just a more economically realistic choice for people to have.

But this idea that women now, Gen Z women, are having their first child at 35 and back in 1953 it was 27, I actually thought it would be lower.Yes, higher than I thought.Yes, exactly.I had my first child at 30 in 2008.It's as a result of women working isn't it?It's as a result of women putting their careers first and we need women to work because if we've got this low birth rate there aren't going to be enough working people to pay for those who are in retirement right?

That's right and most women want to work quite naturally so yes we should absolutely be having a system in which men and women both work.I think what we need is a model whereby men and women are able to support their families, play a part in their local community and be economically productive.That's the model that I think we should aim for.It's gender neutral.But it's a more localized economy.It's one in which the expectation is not that you get up very early in the morning, you travel long distances to work in some remote office, and then come back home late at night and never see your kids.

We need productivity desperately in this country.We need people to be working harder.I don't think that has to happen at the expense of family life.And the great advantages, I think, of the technological revolution that we're seeing at the moment is that we can have a more localized economy.I mean, in places like Wiltshire that I represent, increasingly,it is possible to have a highly productive job in your local place and to therefore have a meaningful time at home and crucially in your neighbourhood, which is the great loss that we've seen in modern times as well, people not being able to play a role in their community.

So I think the modern world could actually look in a way more like the traditional society that we can imagine people had before the mid 20th century experiment with long distance commuting, which of course was primarily led by the father of the family, then the mother started doing that too.And the result has been, you know, children being brought up without meaningful, you know, without a sufficient time with either parent.So I think we need to think seriously about how we can construct an economy in which people can be parents and they can work.And I have real hope that the technological revolution that we're seeing will enable that.

Danny, as you're talking about working motherhood, I'm going to try and crowbar in a question about your own brilliant working mother, Prue Leith, who is a chef, a cook.She's on Bake Off.She's a star of the cuisine scene.And what I want to know is this, what is the one dish that she cooks for you that you enjoy the most?

I mean, I'll tell you, but she's also, you know, more interestingly, if I may, not to disparage chefs and cooks, she's a businesswoman.And, you know, from my earliest childhood, I remember her, you know, putting on a suit and going to a boardroom.So I think my mom has demonstrated the kind, and she was a great mom and she was present.I mean, it was easy because she ran her own business.I mean, let's be honest, it's easier for some people than for others.But she was a very present mother as well as a working woman.

I think that's a great model for us all.Her best dish, the problem is my mum is quite experimental, she likes mucking around, that's I guess why she's a cook.So my father and I have quite simple tastes, so growing up my sister has followed my mother in being very exotic.So, I mean, she will cook something kind of rather fancy and I won't approve.She makes great sausages.

Homemade sausages.Does she make homemade sausages?

To be fair, I haven't seen them for a while now you mention it.I couldn't even consider making a sausage from scratch.Herbie sausages that she would make.She developed a very good Mars bar ice cream before Mars thought of that.Did she?She invented the Stilton soup, or she claims to have invented that.

So she's quite an innovator in her work.

We're entering the period of Pride.Happy Pride.Thank you.Thank you very much.

Well, he has used the term gender neutral, which isn't something I thought reform politician would utter on this show.

Reform have been taking down pride flags, but there are still a few around London.I saw one in your...I'm not sure it's this building.It's not us.It's next door.It's next door.

It's the progress flag as well.

It's got everything on it.We do have an LGBT network in this office, just to say.Yeah, we do.

Yes.Well, yay.

I think in five years time, this sort of thing won't exist anymore.I think it's going steadily out of style very fast.But what I find intriguing is at the same time as you're taking these flags down, reform polls very well among gay people.

How do you explain this?We have all sorts of funny adherents.Porn stars.

Which porn stars support you?Bonnie Bluth.Oh, Bonnie Bluth.Who you can't really approve of, Danny.She's about to film some kind of golden shower.That is horrendous.

She's heavily pregnant.

I mean, it's all serious.

There is a growing contingent of particularly older gay people.who are moving to the right.

Okay, well that is, I think that's a reflection, as you say, on the fact that the kind of excess of woke is causing a reaction among sensible people.And certainly, I mean, I can imagine it being among older gay people who, you know,fought for liberation in their era and are now seeing their revolution as it were co -opted in the cause of madness by trans and and so I Recognize that I mean so going back to the tension as it were within our party or the spectrum as I call it There is obviously there's a sort of conservative wing which is me and then you've got a libertarian wing Represents by others and we all get along well, and that's part of the yeah, that's part of the right, isn't it?We are and by the way, it's in all of us We all want to be free and to belong we recognize the need for you know Individualism and also for tradition these are this is a natural tension within us and I think the great thing about reform is it becomes becomes a national party, is that it is accommodating all sorts of different people who share our basic values, which are about common sense, patriotism, personal responsibility, society, family, community, country.These ideas, I don't think, belong to any particular identity group within our society.Everyone can get behind them, unless you're a kind of transgressive lefty who despises family, community, country.

The right has changed.A lot of gay people have changed too.Precisely because they've come out of the closet, they've been integrated into mainstream culture.They now want, they now can have and want families.They love their country and they want security.Gay people lose out if Islamists enter the country.

So there's a case for saying it's it's not just about the right changing it's also this demographic I would suggest is more sympathetic to a conservative platform than it ever used to be.

I would hope so because and the fact is that it is the paradox that we always need to be better at conveying because I think we're often seen as believing in a sort of monoculture because we do believe in a normative you know we have an idea of how Society should be organized that doesn't mean that we that there is no space for alternative lifestyles In fact, the best society the society that is best able to accommodate difference is one that has an idea of itself Yeah, you knowI'm a traditionalist, a social conservative, but I recognise that there is absolutely space for people to live different lives.

Britain is traditionally camp and reform is very camp.It has a camp subculture, I would say.Three words, Dr David Bull.

And indeed, another three words, Andrea Jenkins sequins.That's right.But I'm trying to think, I'm sitting here listening to this, the gay support for reform, thinking who is reforms Kylie?Is it Farage?

Is it Youssef?

Who is the fulcrum of the gay support?That's probably a question for another podcast.We will discuss this at Reforms Conference in Birmingham.Danny Kruger, what a day to be on the Daily T as we break news with you.Did that excite you?A little bit of journalism?

Talking about your mother's sausage making.You've just seen how the sausage is made.

I bet when we said someone had resigned there was a part of you that thought, please Please, not be a reformer.

Yes, Danny Kruger, thank you so much for being here.Thank you both.

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