Steven Gerrard: I Would Not Have Left Like Trent Did | Our England Squad Were ‘Egotistical losers"

I lost my job at Aston Villa which was really tough because I found the last six or seven games really tough because I felt like I couldn't pull it back and it's frustrating when you're in that position. You're working harder, you're doing more and you just can't pull it back because you know that the dressing room's maybe not going to help you pull it back. But I lost control of it quickly and it deteriorated quickly and I found it hard to get it back. That was tough and frustrating.

Steven Gerrard. One of the most incredible footballers of a generation.

Probably like myself, Lampard and Scholes. We're all different.

Well now you've brought us there, who's better? I've played with him for many years, but when he sits down for this episode of Rio Meets, I'm still learning new things.

He was an animal. He was a nasty piece of work. He was a nasty, nasty piece of work. We were a pair of devils on the pitch, if you like.

Little staffs.

The Manchester United lads, Alex Ferguson and Humberto Miranda together.

Oh, you called out of time.

Was that true?

He's refreshingly honest about some big parts of his career and some others too.

I think we were all egotistical losers. The Chelsea thing is exactly the same. It makes me feel shit. There's not many better than Roy Keane when I judge a midfielder.

Do you agree with the stick he got though?

I can understand it from being in Trent's shoes. And you know the stick he got? So what? I got it. The next person that flirts with Real Madrid or Barcelona or blah blah, they're gonna get stick. We play a game with millions and millions of people that are paying good money or they're all on social media, you're gonna get a bit of stick.

So enjoy witnessing a side of Steven Gerrard that you won't have ever seen before.

He would have everyone terrorised in the Premier League. I'm telling you right now, he'd be the best midfielder in the Premier League, hands down. I probably wouldn't. You helped me get sent off, didn't you?

Did I?

I said so, I think.

You're like Cluj, I'll get you the ref.

How are you, mate?

How are you?

Good, how are you mate? How are you? Good, how are you?

Good to see you. And you, you alright?

Good to see you.

It's a bit closer isn't it? Yeah.

It's nice.

How you doing?

Great, all good. Family good?

Excellent.

Grandad now isn't it?

Yeah, grandad yeah.

A few more grey hairs.

That's unbelievable. Yeah, if you have a shave maybe, if you have a shave. But no, brilliant mate, really good swimmer. Lily had the baby, both healthy, both fine. So, really proud granddad.

Good. We were talking about you before with Michael. You've seen the stuff we've done with Michael, haven't you?

Yes, I've seen it, yeah. Explosive, wasn't it?

Yeah, you came out with it. You actually messaged me, didn't you? It was a great interview by the way. Right, cheers, thank you. But what I wanted to ask you about him is like, is that the Michael Owen you know though? Because a lot of people, sometimes he gets viewed in a different way to actually the way I see him, because I'm always around him as like an off-screen.

Well, I come through the whole system with him, from a football point of view, so I would have met Michael at eight years of age. I know the mentality of the player. I know the level that he got to. And I think the interview is really honest but I think it was also Michael reminding people, you know, don't forget about me. Because a lot of people get, in my opinion, too much credit for the careers they've had. And I think in Michael's case, he doesn't get enough credit. Especially in the period where he touches on a lot,

from 17 to 23, before he got the big armstring injury. He was as good as anyone in terms of being a striker. And the thing that people maybe don't know about Michael is they see this little small centre forward who's this pretty boy, family man, blah blah blah. He was an animal. He was a nasty piece of work.

He was a nasty, nasty piece of work.

I remember our managers, even when we was young, having to take him off or tell him to calm down because he'd want to smash people.

Yeah, well we were a double act. I can't say that was all. It was all Michael. You know, I used to back him up a lot and he used to back me up a lot. We were a pair of devils on the pitch if you like. Little staffs.

Yeah, we were, you know, he was the first press and I was right in behind him, but we were two tenacious, competitive, small footballers coming through, because we were both small. But we had this mentality where we didn't like to get beat. That's the bit that got Michael the bound door in my opinion. Not just the goals and the speed. It was the hunger and the devil in him.

There's a devil in Michael Owen from a football point of view.

Yeah, there is.

And let's have it right, there was a period of three, four years where he was up there with the best.

It's weird because obviously you've played, you would have seen on there, one of the big talking points was the Michael Owen versus Wayne Rooney chat that came out the back of it. And there's probably no one better placed actually than yourself to be able to kind of dissect as teenagers. Where would you sit?

I don't think they're in the conversation to compare against directly to each other. That's not me sitting on the fence because Wayne Rooney's the best player I played with in England, hands down. Is he, yeah?

Because he can do so many things. And I don't see Wayne as a number nine, I don't see him as a number 10, I see him as an all-round attacker because he can occupy a back four or a back five on his own. And the only other striker I've seen do that is Luis Suarez. So, Wayne's in the Suarez conversation for me. They're direct.

That's more of a comparison. Yeah, for me. Because they're similar.

And if Torres and Owen are more...

And I'd say Torres and Owen are more. Probably like myself, Lampard and Scholes, we're all different. But because we're attacking eight, people debate it more than any other debate in the world, which I understand.

But now you've brought us there, who's better?

I always back myself. But I love Frank Lampard as a player because I love his hunger for goals. He was the best at arriving in the box, his timing, his hunger for goals as an attacking midfielder. I think he probably outshines myself and Scolzi in terms of that hunger for goals and being obsessed on the thing. If you're talking about somebody who can run a game, who you can't get near when he's at his best, control a game, looks silky, great on the eye, probably looks better on the eye, scalzy.

But me, as a young boy, and coming up as a young kid, I'm the midfielder. I didn't start out to be an attacker or a defensive midfielder, I just wanted to be a midfielder. And a midfielder for me is you can do everything. And that's how I tried to grow and evolve and become. And I personally don't,

I'll back myself against anyone in the world. If you're looking at every component of a midfielder, defensively, attacking, transition, for and against. If you're marking and judging a score on every component of being a midfielder, I'll go against anyone.

I love that. I love that. You know what, it's mad, because Americans do this, and it's normalized. In America, you're championed for backing yourself

and going, actually, no, no, I am the best. It's weird, because in our country, it's a little bit like, oh, well, he's a himself. You're not going to get that because you don't divide opinion as much as someone like Michael. But it's refreshing to see someone actually go, no listen, I do actually generally speak on the man.

There's types of midfielders, there's types of defenders. I get asked the question a lot with you and John Terry, for example. And I think you're different. You both play centre-half, which is weird. You're both playing the same position, blah, blah, blah, I thought yous were great together. But you're very different. The most frustrating thing for me about the debates when I hear it a lot is, why hasn't there been someone over a 15 year period that's made us work together?

Yeah, well I was gonna come to that, but you've took us there again, it's true.

Why, why, you know how? And that's on me as well because at times underperformed and blah blah blah and I'm sure Frank, Lola, Zandop, Scholes, they're all honest lads.

Do you not think a system sometimes facilitates players?

A two doesn't work with them three. A two doesn't work.

Or does one of you have to sit out?

Yeah, if you play in the system that a lot of the coaches played. I think someone had to have the courage to say, well, Stephen, it's not you today or Frank or Scolzi. Putting Scolzi on the left and me on the right or me on the left or asking one of us to be just a sitter takes a lot away from any of us. But I think we could have played together. I think we could have tactically being coached over a period of time for it to work because I believe we had the football IQ and intelligence to adapt and make it work together. But there was a bigger problem in England in my opinion.

I think we were all egotistical losers.

Yeah.

Because I watch the telly now and I see Karrick sitting next to Paul Scholes on this fan debate and they look like they've been best mates for 20 years. And I see Karrick's relationship with Karrick Neville and they look like they've been mates for 20 years. I'm probably more close and friendly with you now than I ever was when I played with you for 15 years. So why didn't we connect when we were 20, 21, 22, 23? Was it ego? Was it rivalry, was it...

Why are we all mature enough now and at stages in our life where we're closer and more connected now, why couldn't we connect as England teammates back then? And I think it was down to the culture within England that we were all never connected,

all in our rooms too much, we never, we wasn't friendly or connected, we wasn't a team. We never at any stage become a real good strong team.

Did you enjoy it?

Hated it.

I didn't enjoy it.

Hated the rooms. In the early days, I'd have days where I was down, like low, down, like, I'm in this room for seven hours, what am I going to do? There was no social media, no like, didn't have a DVD player, and it was channel one to five or whatever it was. I used to get low and down.

I used to love the games. I used to love playing for England, really proud. I used to enjoy the training sessions, but it was 90 minutes a day. And then I was just on my own in London or in-

The middle of nowhere.

Romania or wherever. And I was thinking, I'm in this room from now till I have half an hour dinner till the next day. It was like, I didn't feel part of a team. I didn't feel connected with my teammates with England. I didn't feel that.

Liverpool, they were the best days of my life. When I used to go abroad to Liverpool or I used to go to an away game at Liverpool, I felt part of a team. I felt like the staff looked over me, like I felt special. I felt like I couldn't wait to get there with England.

I just wanted the games and the training sessions and then to be away.

I think our problems was, a number of problems, but the main ones was Liverpool, Man United and Chelsea.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. I felt like the last one or two days of the 10 days, you could feel a connection coming, but then the games would be done. The games would be done. There was a little bit more of a connection during the tournament because you'd be living together a little bit more.

But I think Gareth Southgate is underrated for how he connected the England team. Because for me the talent was there, the players were there, the level of games we were all playing at was there to go and do better than what we did. I think we had a little bit of bad luck with the penalties or whatever. We have to take responsibility. But I've got a big frustration when I look back at England that we never done better. And I think it's a combination of different things. But one of the big things for me was we wasn't a team.

We were a group of individuals with talent and it never works like that.

I felt there was an underlying bitterness between us.

Yeah, bitterness, a little bit of hate, a little bit of hatred, a little bit of like, you know, we want to do you's. But when you think about it now, looking back at the age I'm at and I haven't gone through a bit of coaching, it's quite...

Immature, isn't it?

It's a bit immature, but also should there have been more emphasis on the staff to go to us, listen, you need to forget that now. We need to connect from day one, more activities, more out of your rooms, more time together. Because I think if we'd have been more of a team, more together, and liked each other more, I think it would have come out in the performances more.

Yeah, I agree. Just to take you back, like, talking about, well, everyone talks about you in such glowing terms. I was thinking before I was sitting with you, when did you actually feel that you were going to be a player?

I think in terms of playing for Liverpool's first team, I first realised I had a really good chance of 13 because I was offered a really long contract. I was offered a contract of 13. Two year school, two-year apprentice and a three-year professional. So I knew at 13 I was gonna get close all around the first team squad. But from a young age, I knew I was good enough to be in any game of football that I was put in.

I've got an older brother who's two years older, so I was always around older kids, getting knocked about, getting toughed up, getting beat a lot at different sports, table tennis, pool, snooker, in the streets, whatever game you could play and I got, I suffered, I got tortured by all the kids and my brother and that made me more determined, more resilient, more stronger.

Did that shape your mentality?

I hated losing.

Yeah.

Hated losing at anything. And I think having talent around that competitive gave me a good chance to go on the journey.

Talking about losing and not winning and not being able to win when you're a kid and your brother's really putting the foot on your neck a little bit as a kid. How did you manage your, was you always good at managing your anger? Because you've...

No, no.

And I think even during my career, I look back now and there's moments where I wish I'd managed it better, where it got the better of me, frustration and... You weren't a shouter though, was you? You'd do something? Yeah, no, it'd be an action. Yeah. It'd be an action. I've never been a shouter, I'm not now. It'd be an action in football terms.

So it'd get the better of me, I'd go and kick someone or I'd, you know, be on the wrong side of where you need to be. And I look back and regret some of the things I've done. I came on against Manchester United once for 30 seconds, got sent off. You helped me get sent off, didn't you?

Did you?

I sent off your fingers.

You're like Clujo, weren't you, the ref? You were good at that.

Green card, red card, red card.

So yeah, I regret some of them moments and red cards and stuff, but I also think that it was that inner drive and resilience and competitive spirit that also helped me to be the player I was.

And when you walk into that dressing room with first team players and there's big players in there, like Robbie Fowler, Jamie Redknapp at the time, and others. Jamie's actually the first one who told me about you in England, he said, we've got a kid coming through you never believe what he's like. But what's your mindset going in there to try and put your imprint in their minds that I can play here?

So I went into the first team dressing room. Obviously, Karad and Michael helped me a lot because I was around their younger dressing room a little bit. So they knew me a bit. Davy Tomo, Danny Murphy. They helped me a lot. The likes of Fowler, McManaman and Redknapp, they were my heroes. I had their names on my shirts.

I'd done their boots as an apprentice. I couldn't have had any more respect going into the Liverpool's dressing room in terms of them as people and players. But I had some where I, in my quieter times where I used to look at them and think I'm coming for all of you. I had this thing where I'd be very polite and got nothing but respect for all of them as people and guys but I used to think I'm at this moment now where it's now or never for me. If I want to play for Liverpool

for a long period of time and I want the career that I want to have Whoever's there in my own every single day training. I'm thinking no one's getting in the way of me. Hmm I have to prove I'm better than Paul Ince Jamie Redknapp Danny Murphy and Davy Thompson They were the four that I used to get in my car every morning and I think I've got to be better than them today

Hmm would they have known that?

I think they'd have felt it in training, in terms of me competing against them, they'd have felt it, but I've never said it to them. I don't think you'd have to do that, I think you'd have to prove it.

What about becoming a leader in the changing room as well? Because obviously you become the captain of Liverpool, you're a Liverpool lad, you're a local kid. When you're given the armband like that, what's that feeling as a local kid? You've been on the terraces there watching your team.

There's probably three numerous occasions where I've had a feeling which has been indescribable. Lifting trophies is one of them. I got called into the office from Phil Thompson and Hugh Labord and they said to me, you're going to be the full-time captain of Liverpool. It's one of the most special and best feelings I've ever had in my life. Where your body, just your outer body experience, the hairs on your neck.

You have this flush, incredible feeling. Probably came a little bit young. I still had loads to learn. I didn't feel like I was that vocal leader that you probably needed to be to captain a Liverpool dressing room.

But all the way through my younger amateur teams and through the system at Liverpool, I think I tried to play in a certain way and a certain style. That lead, that's the way I try and play. And I think that's what got me the armband rather than looking at me and going, oh, he's vocally ready or he's mature enough or experienced enough to be the captain of the pool. I think the way I played and my style gave me the opportunity. Then I had to grow, learn on the job, evolve.

And having the likes of Redknapp, Sammy Appiah, Jamie Carragher, them players, they helped me a lot in the initial period.

I've heard loads of players talk about being at Liverpool and under your kind of captaincy, talking about they were actually in there trying to impress you more than the manager at some times.

I'm not sure, I'm not sure that's the case.

But did you ever feel that? Because I always say to my mates, I've got loads of Liverpool supporters and mates, and they always ask me about Steve, I say, you know what, forget being a footballer, he actually has got quite an aura sometimes.

Yeah, but I think, looking into the Manchester United dressing room from afar, I would probably say the likes of yourself, Rui Quin, definitely. I'd say Giggs, looking at Giggs from afar, I would say gigs, looking at gigs from afar, I would say. And even your schools, I'd say there's a core of players in every dressing room where a new signing has to impress and start well. Because you know, as well as I do, we talk.

The first thing me and you say, if we're in the same dressing room, say Liverpool for example, the player comes in, he has a nightmare in his first session where you're going, oh, he didn't start well. Like Alonso came in for example and just went, bang. First thing, Kader comes in and goes, we've got a player here. So you have them conversations.

You make quick judgements as well, don't you?

And I think the core of any dressing room, they have the respect and the feeling in the dressing room where I think new players and new signings or players coming through the youth system, they should have to impress that core of players, they should have to prove that they're good enough and that they're going to help the team.

And seeing the way that you take over games at times and dominate games, I look at my career and think it's probably like when I was 22 where I felt I could dominate an opponent quite consistently or get into a game where I don't feel like I'm going to be challenged because I'm really on it. When did you start feeling that, not

invincible, but that real confidence in your performance? In my early years, I was always compared to Roy Keane, Ypate Fieras, and I was 19, 20, 21 probably when they were in their peak, I would say. And I didn't really feel like a proper man at the time. I didn't feel like I was finished in terms of body development,

in terms of the level I could get to, or my full potential. At times I found it hard against them at my age and where I was at in my career because they were machines. They were, I'm not sure the exact ages of what they are, but you knew if you played against Ruiquin or Pato Vieira

that you are, I had to at that age, I had to go above and beyond to live with them or to try and on the day, try and get the better of them. I had to go above and beyond where I was at my career to live with that level of player.

Just quickly on them, because I think it's important because we see, especially working on TV now and the younger generation probably wouldn't know. And they're actually, there's probably a narrative that goes around the way, just to kick off, just to tackle off.

No, no.

What would you, how would you describe something like that?

I think football's in a place where you get more praise and respect now if you're a moments player. So for example, you score a good goal or you get an assist and it's stats and it's, you know, oh he's got 10 assists and 10 goals and blah, blah, blah. But if you look at the detail of a performance in and out of possession, leadership, all the components, blah, blah, blah, there's not many better than Ruiquin. When I judge a midfielder, he was always in the right position.

He was tough. He was physically top in terms of being able to get about. Recovery runs. He was tough in terms of physicality. He could run past you. He could recover and get back. His short game was underrated in my opinion because he could break lines when he was passing. He could change the play. He could run off you.

I think he had all the components. I think, obviously, he scored a lot of important goals at key times. That's how I judge a midfielder. I judge a midfielder on everything. A 90-minute performance over a season, over a period of time. There's not many better than him.

It's mad because we obviously chat on text every now and again. I remember you talking about Yaya Toure, another midfielder. He sometimes goes out of the conversation of the top midfielders in the Premier League. Someone like him, did you find him hard to play against?

I think he'd have moments in the game that I'd find hard to contain, because if he went to gear five, if you like, and decided he was gonna go and burst past you, or try and drive past you, or pass and run past you, I think Yaya Artur was one of the most toughest opponents to stop. He would have two or three moments in the game

that could be unstoppable, if you like. But over the 90 minutes, if you stop them two, three moments or stick with them them two, three moments, I'm comfortable with that. A Roy Keane or a Patrick Vieira over 90 minutes

is different than that, is different than that.

That's a lot. So what about in today's generation? I'm on this topic of great midfielders. Who are you looking at now in today's game and going, that's the level that I'm used to playing against and that I respect?

In the Premier League? I think Declan Rice is a really, really good midfielder. I like an awful lot about him. I like the kid, I like his mentality, I like the way he's gone to the next level at Arsenal. He's adding different things to his game. I think he'd be a really tough, strong opponent, good challenge. Jude Bellingham, if he was in the Premier League, I'd love to go toe-to-toe with him. I really think that would be interesting and good. They're the two best at the moment, I'd say from an English point of view. There's certain midfielders that I didn't really enjoy playing against, like the Barcelona type midfielder. When they're collectively

together, when it's my style and you want to really go and leave a stamp on someone and get close to someone, blah blah blah, them together they were really difficult to play against. Busquets, Xavi and Jesta, I mean what a blend of a midfield. And I look at the likes of Pedri now and these type of players, they were the most difficult challenge for me. But the ones like Joaquins, Vieiras, people who you could go toe-to-toe and get close to and have a tear up with.

You don't really see that much now, do you? It's me against you.

I'm not sure I could be respected as well as I got respected during my career now in today's game. I think it's changed. It's a more technical game. It's a more academy based game, tactical. What do you mean academy? What's that mean? Technical, I think academies are more technical now. The rules of the game have moved, have evolved where I look at my battles against some of the players.

Lamps in Champions League battles, Scolzi, where you could try and leave a stamp on them, they'd try and leave a stamp on me. Vieira, Scolzi, it would be, as we were talking about earlier, the box and a toe-to-toe, like, 90-minute battle over the course of the game.

Yeah, that duel might actually determine the game. It doesn't really happen like that now, does it?

It could set a tone or physicality you know it's a more friendlier atmosphere it's a more safer game. I like football the generation before that for me but that's the generation I played in for me now it's a little bit more technical. You get booked for nothing now. You can go off a football pitch for nothing.

You could get a few more red cards.

Oh yeah.

And that's what would concern me now. Could I be the Steven Gerrard that played in our generation? Could that be now? I'm not sure.

I'm not sure.

I'd have to adapt. adapt and I think it'd take a lot away from my style. Talking about your style. I think Scolesy now would be the best midfielder in the Premier League. Do you think that? I do yeah because Scolesy for me was very much an in possession controller of a midfield controller of a game. Can switch the play, you get close and you can pop it round, you can play the outside of his foot he can switch the play score important goals make the last pass. Scolesy's thing for me was can you get him doing the other side of the game? Can you take him the

other way? Can you be physical with him? He'll get booked against you. These type of things you could maybe try and get the better of him the other way but I'm not sure in the stage game you could lead one on Scolzi for example so he would have everyone terrorised in the Premier League I'm telling you right now, he would have everyone terrorised in the Premier League now he'd be the best midfielder in the Premier League now, hands down I probably wouldn't

I think you'd do yourself a disservice, I've got to be honest

I probably wouldn't because I probably wouldn't be on the pitch

That might be a big issue. For long enough. But you get what I mean don't you? His style. Yeah, Scoles is the type, if you can't get near him and affect him like you're saying, and get your hands on him or make him do other parts of the game.

He'd have a huge influence on the game. Yeah, exactly.

Huge influence on the game. Just talking about styles and bits and bobs about people's identity as a player. What is it in your game that you think is probably an undervalued element of your game that people don't really talk about as much?

Yeah.

I think I was quicker than what people think in terms of covering ground, like recovery runs or bursting past people or running without the ball. I was probably slightly quicker than what people give me credit for.

100%.

And that went towards the back end of my career.

It leaves a soul.

And I think that's the reason why maybe Brendan tried to shape me more into a deeper, scholesy type midfielder, more of a controller, playing from a bit deeper. But when I was in my prime years and I felt really good and physically good, I had like a rangey stride that could cover the ground, could go both ways. Where was the best Steven Gerrard? I would say 2005-2007 was really good. I was injury free for quite a bit of it. And what position was your player in then?

Rafa had tactically got me in a really good place as well. I think in my early years I was a bit of a free spirit, maybe lost my position a little bit too much, but got a lot of rewards from doing that by taking a lot of risk and gambling a lot. But Rafa really got me to understand the tactical side of the game, more game intelligence, different IQ.

So from four to seven, I felt really strong. Can't really remember the period after seven, but then I had a period around nine, 10 and 11 where I felt really good as well.

I think I won player of the year.

Yeah, I'd become a little bit more behind Torres. I had Alonso and Mascherano behind me. And that spine of that team was really good.

How did that team not win?

Because of Hughes.

If you'd have stayed together?

We should have won a league. So there's an element of us not... When you name them players like that, when you start going... We had... that Spine was just good enough. Obviously 2014 again, that one still haunts me of course, I say it a lot. But even before that, I think we should have pipped one, we should have got one. But for us, we had Fergie and the United team, the Class of 92, that were all top Premier League players.

It's not luck, but we never had that at Liverpool. We were 7 or 8 at that level. And then United were spending on Daleksy himself and Van Nistelrooy. They obviously had a natural leader in Keane, they had a freak in gigs. We only really had one £30 million player that was the superstar at Liverpool, Torres. Then it became Suarez, but we only really had one superstar, it was Michael Owen. Fowler, in my time Fowler was the superstar when I came in.

Then we had Michaeller was the superstar when I came in. Then we had Michael Olmos, the superstar. Torres came in after a bit of a low where we didn't have a superstar. Torres, then it became Suarez. I always felt Manchester United always had three or four superstars, and then the class of...

Yeah, the solid ones around it.

The solid ones around it.

Was you ever like, when you look back now...

I never ever felt our Liverpool team was as strong as you. I always felt like we had to go above and beyond to get a result against you. That's how it used to feel.

You talked about the spine though, that team, and you named them players there. Alonso, Mascherano, yourself, Torres and later... That was Bill, that was the closest we'd come. Did you, I'm just going on, was you frustrated maybe at times about elements of the recruitment? I'm not asking you to name names, but elements of the recruitment

to actually enhance that spine that you already had in the club?

Oh yeah, we got recruitment badly wrong at times. Badly wrong at times. I'll give you one example. We had the chance to sign Nicholas and Elke or Eladj Djuf and we bought Eladj Djuf on the back of a 4-5 game period in a World Cup when we could have bought someone on the back of five six years. That was a decision, I

don't know we made the final decision. That one example of us as a club getting it wrong because that is one of the biggest mismatches you could debate. And that's you four, Nicholas and Elke. That is...

And Elke is one of the hardest players I've played against. One of the top three hardest I've played against.

Yeah, and he came into our sessions, Elelka, coolest man ever, calm, relaxed. You just knew he had that aura and that confidence in himself that he was ready to win. He was ready to help Liverpool win more or get closer to you guys or wherever it was. Anelka was coming in and he was a level above. He was a level above, a level above. And then a decision was made and honestly, it was a complete mismatch.

That was one example, I'll give you, where I couldn't believe what was happening.

Just to take you back, we spoke about Manchester United and Liverpool, that rivalry, and I was a Londoner coming up to Manchester. I didn't realise what that, the fire between the two clubs. What did it mean to you, that rivalry?

I don't want to play it up too much. I'd never, ever play it down. I think it is what it is. It was there well before me and you. It'll be here forever. You've got two huge institutions that are built on success, two ginormous fan bases.

Proud fan bases as well. Yeah unbelievable and obviously there's this rivalry and blah blah blah but similar in terms of you know the where the stadiums are, the surrounding areas blah blah blah, what it means to you, a person that saves up and buys a ticket and goes and supports the team, there's a lot of similarities in both clubs so you can't play it down but at the same time I don't want a city like this big hero who

tries to make out that it's bigger than it is. It was a huge, very important game of football that meant the world and everything to me in that moment.

Is there a moment you remember that stands out for you in them games?

Yeah well listen in my first early Manchester United games, we were tortured. Playing against Andy Cole, York, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Keane. That team would come to even Anfield and would be a level above the team that I first broke into. So a lot of hurt and a lot of pain in the early things. And then there was a game where we came to Old Trafford and I think Danny Murphy scored the winning goal.

And we hadn't... Yeah, the free kick, yeah. But we also, I think we got a result as well. I played a pass to Danny Murphy and he lobbed the keeper. I think Barthes was in goal at the time. So we were starting to get into a better team. But it sort of brought into you, from being a local,

I had a lot earlier than when you play at first team level. So I'd have played against Richie Wellens, Wes Brown, who you'd have played with earlier on, 13, 14, 15. John Curtis. We'd have played against all them in the youth team. So we'd have been well-primed more than you coming in

as a signing for the United. So it was always fixture lists, whatever age group, when are we playing Everton, when are we playing Manchester United?

Just on that rivalry, I remember Rafa Benitez, the rant he had that time in a press conference. What was the impact on you? Because the impact on us was like, we were on bikes in the gym and we see it come up. And it's interesting when you see like, almost like soap opera things start happening on the news and the impact it can have on a change room.

We were kind of like lifted by that. I'd like to see what was that?

I got an SMS, I think it was an SMS at the time. On the Blackberry? James Carragher, before the interview had finished.

Who's that?

And I think I was actually typing one out to him at the same time. Rafa's world class and he's brilliant, he was brilliant for me in terms of development, personal one-to-one stuff. Quite a cold manager at times, but in terms of tactical and the coach, the best I work with,

but I think that was a mistake. I understood why he was, what he was trying to do, what, you know, these mind games at that level. When you're in the managing seat, it's different. It's different. You know, you're trying to manage the press

in a different way. But being in the players' shoes at that time, I don't think it was necessary. Because I was thinking, the Manchester United lads and Alex Ferguson and Holta Rubin were hands together.

You thought that at the time? Was that true?

Yeah.

There you go. We were punching the air, if I'm honest, on the back, scaring him. He's gone.

He's gone. He's gone. And Fergie was the master at that. But I think we were in a good place at that time. We were in a good place and I think it was probably the most nervous yous were to be in at the time.

You were 100% concerned at that time.

And that spine was coming that you spoke about. We were growing, we were building, we were getting closer. I just don't think it was necessary. That was my own personal opinion.

Would that be something you'd have mentioned to him at the time?

No, no. I've always had the respect of a manager and a coach to let him do it his way and blah, blah, blah. But if he'd have said to me, what did you think it means?

I'd have just said, I don't think there was any need for it. Some players go through a career and finish a career, and they've had a very good career, sometimes top-level career, but there's never a moment where people go, that was the moment. You've had countless moments from Champions League winners, FA Cup winners, the lot.

What is your most memorable moment, or one or two moments that you look back on and go, that was the one?

I always felt my good moments came off the back of a setback or a moment where that wasn't so good, maybe an injury or maybe a bad game or bad moments. I used to always reset myself. I was always really good at resetting and then just people listening to this.

Sometimes when you get a bit of pain in your career or a setback, I was really good at using it as motivation to go and achieve something good and big. Istanbul will always be the night and the moment.

Was there something in you that made you feel like you kind of... Was there something in the game, a trigger, a moment where it was like, switched on, I'm going to take over the game?

A bit of fear of losing would always come in. I used to always, before games or preparing for games, I used to always get like this, imagine if we lose, what's it going to feel like to lose? I used to always have to control and fight that, in terms of like, no point worrying about it now,

let's get the show on the road and let's get the battle going. But with in-game, it was always, imagine what it'd feel like to go out of this competition. Imagine what it'd feel like to lose these three points. And it was that that used to drive me on.

So I'm going to do this.

Even more than the, I might not like to win this, or you know, it'd be more like, oh, I'd always have that fear and that, I'm not sure fear is the right word, but I'd always want to push to not experience that. In football, it's the worst feeling, being injured and losing is the worst part of your career, the worst part. I totally and losing is the worst part of your career. The worst part.

I totally get what you're saying. The moment I started thinking about what the feeling's going to be like when I win, it never happened. It was more the, I can't lose this. We can't imagine, like you say, imagine if we do lose this walking down the street.

I think that's the part that people from the outside don't really get. It's like that pressure, that responsibility, especially when you're playing for the big clubs because there's no rest from it.

You spoke about when you've had setbacks or negative things, Pep Guardiola said the best players in game are able to delete setbacks or a bad moment in a game and move on. Is that one of the things you alluded to as well there?

Not all the time, not all the time, because I had some bad moments and found it really hard to recover from them mentally and within the game. I suppose I used to work a lot on volume in terms of my moments, like just keep going and go and go, going, just keep going. But yeah, I suppose when I did become the captain of Liverpool, I went to the next level in terms of that.

Wanting it more, pushing more, fighting more, not giving up more. I suppose with age and with the responsibility of that, I think I went to the next level with that. But I couldn't always do it. I made some really high profile mistakes that I couldn't recover from. Not through not wanting to or trying, it just wasn't to be.

But there was a lot of times where I could and thankfully I had that talent or that drive or that force, if you like, to just keep going and going and going and going.

Yeah, just sitting here listening to you, I knew anyway, but then sitting here, it just comes even more apparent, that feeling of losing is like, it's a terrible, you can't almost put it into words how much it means to you as an individual.

Just to go back to the point when, the moment when you did slip in that game, is that something that comes up in your mind? Because bad things that happened to me in my career, they come in my mind more than any good thing.

I'm not sure what comes up the most. I feel good speaking about the good stuff. Istanbul, Olympiacos, the FA Cup, Montgomery, England got a blast, anyway, anyway, you feel great. And when I do interviews or I see a clip on the telly or blah blah blah and I see a shit back pass I gave away for England or

I underperformed for England, missed a penalty for England, I feel shit. The Chelsea thing is exactly the same. It makes me feel shit. It is what it is. I've got to live with it. I've managed it. I control it. Does it pop up every day of my life? No, it doesn't. Do I have to accept it and be man enough? Yeah, I can't change it.

But all the shit moments I have in my career, they rear themselves every now and again. But so does the good stuff. So I have to take the rough with the smooth but I hate losing football matches. I hate underachieving and I sit here now still here by not winning the Premier League. Not just that year, every single year I competed in it. Because I felt at Liverpool Football Club being the captain I should have delivered that. So I have to take the responsibility and own that. But I don't overthink about individual moments, good or bad.

I just deal with them as and when they come up. But they do come in and out of my thoughts because, I suppose, because I'm a human. Talking on, fast forward on to coaching. What have you enjoyed most about coaching? Because when I've spoken to you and I've seen you, and people have asked me, oh Stevie, I swear to you, you were one of the players, Frank's the same, Wayne's the same,

you wouldn't have been the top five picks in the dressing room that I had. Top ten picks.

Yeah, I think when I played with you, You wouldn't have been the top 5 picks in the dressing room that I had. Top 10 picks I would have been.

I think when I played with you, if you'd have said to me, can you do a bit of coaching or management, I'd probably say I doubt it. I doubt it. I'd say Kara would.

Yeah.

I'd also say maybe Frank would. He's very intelligent, you get the impression he's very intelligent in terms of like, you know, studying the game or what have you. Danny Murphy would have been another one, always interested in that side of the game. So as a player I'd have probably said no but see when I stopped playing football, it was a big void for me and even though I knew my body was ready to pack in, feelings and blah blah blah and I couldn't really be the player

I wanted to be. So I was probably ready at the time. Missed it every single day. And I still miss it now as a player. And I qualified to do my badges when I went into my 30s and ended up getting my pro license. Went into the Proves Academy, enjoyed a lot of that. But it was the managing side of it that I enjoyed.

The one-to-one, motivating players, seeing that I could make a difference with a player to get more out of that individual player. Then I got the opportunity to go to Rangers and I loved it. Rangers, I felt like it was the perfect match.

And it went on from there, but it was the competing and the missing being a footballer daily, the routine, the being in the dressing room and the day-to-day routine. That was the void that,

what I still live with today is I miss that when I'm not in full-time football, I miss that void.

Well, when you're in full-time football, when you was in the midst of it, what was you seeing in terms of like players and the desires, the habits, et cetera? What was you seeing as a guy, as a player? It's really changed.

The fascinating thing for me was, I think the generation that I've been coaching in recently, last, what, seven or eight years, is very different to the generation of us and the generation before, I would say. So it's been fascinating for me to try and adapt a little bit and, you know, try and be in the now in terms of managing the individual

and trying to get the best out of the individual. It's slightly different than how I used to manage players as a captain, if you like, because you could be a bit more honest, a bit more forceful, if you like. And I've really enjoyed the journey so far, of course. I've had a couple of tough moments

and lost my job at Aston Villa, which was really tough because I found the last six or seven games really tough because I felt like I couldn't pull it back and it's frustration, frustrating when you're in that position because when you're doing your best you're even doing more, you're working harder, you're doing more and you just can't pull it back because you know that the dressing room's maybe not gonna help you pull it back. That was tough. Saudi experience, I've loved it.

I've loved it because I got the opportunity to really coach and learn and...

Away from the spotlight almost as well.

Yeah.

In terms of... Different type of pressure. Different type of pressure. Still had a club that wanted to win and still demand them, but a different type of pressure. Still had a club that wanted to win and still demand them, but a different type of demand, more of a supportive type of demand where you can evolve and grow as a coach.

And living away, because I was in Liverpool for such a long time, and really enjoying that different cultures and taking myself and my family out of the comfort zone. The Villa thing was really tough at the end because the first six months of Villa, I felt like we had control of it and we were, we had Villa where maybe we should have had them.

I think the stats, if you like, were saying that we had them in the top eight, nine teams in the league from taking them at 17. So we were really in a good place. but I lost control of it quickly and it deteriorated quickly and I found it hard to get it back. That was tough and frustrating. But look, this is the difference from being a player to a manager. It's a completely different role. You can impact the game can't you? It's a completely different role. You're managing a dressing room, you're managing characters and personalities. And the three different groups that I've had have all been different,

in different characteristics, different groups, very different. So it's been fascinating to manage and coach them three different groups, but I've loved it so far. I'd love another goal at some point.

I wanna change a few things and improve a few things and come back fresh with a few different people around myself. I'd love another couple of challenges doing this. And that's what I'm working on in the background at the moment, a few different ideas,

a few different people around me.

How do you do that? Do you interview a few people or have coffees

with a few people? I'll speak to people off the record, in private, get a feel for where they are. The first thing I try and do is, I know where I'm strong and I know there's areas where I need good support and I need special skill sets to make me better and stronger in terms of my staff and my group. I felt like I had that to a T at Rangers. I had it to a T. A lot of coach changes at Aston Villa and over in Saudi that I don't think helped me from a personal point of view. So yeah, now enjoying family time and doing a lot of things that I haven't been able to do like going to Grand Prix's, doing exhibition games with ex-teammates and superstars,

that type of stuff's been great. But there's a part of me that still feels that there's a bit of unfinished business in terms of wanting to go in and face another couple of exciting challenges. But I want a certain type of challenge. If in an ideal world they come available, I'll jump at them. If they don't, I won't go back in. I want to be at a team that's going to compete to win because I think that suits me better.

It's funny because Michael Owen spoke about that on the interview as well didn't he? He spoke about players going in at levels where they're not accustomed to being. If you're going in the championship or you're going in...

It's tough, it's a tough gig. Every job's challenging and tough. I'm sure it is. Every manager will probably tell you the same thing.

Do you think you'll be better in a team like that?

I think certain jobs and certain clubs would suit my style and the way I like to go about it. But I've also got time now where I'm not in a rush where I know the right people that are out there to make me a stronger and a better coach. They're the people I need to find because if I get that the right match with them people around me, I know and I've proved I can be successful as a manager and that's what I'm working on in the background now.

But I've had five or six really interesting phone calls since I stopped in Saudi, and I haven't been ready because I haven't got that team set around me, and the timer hasn't been right. My daughter's just had a baby, I've just become a granddad, I wasn't ready.

I haven't got my staff ready. So unfortunately, them opportunities or them phone calls have come at the wrong time, if you like. But if the right call comes my way, the right club, the right challenge and I've got my people set, which I will have at some point, I'll take that challenge on because it's in me.

Good luck, I can't wait for that to happen. Talking of managers...

If it doesn't, you're going to have to put up with me for a bit longer.

I'm going to wait for it.

I'm not surprised by his rise and where he's at because as a player, student of the game, very clever, spoke sense, understood the game, all facets of the game in and out of possession. It was like you're playing with a coach when you played with him but not in a busy way. We've played with players or you can talk a good game and they don't shut up in dressing rooms and you're looking at each other going, this fella. You can listen to Xabi all day long. He was a coach in a player's body if you like and Rafa would tell you that.

The reason he brought Xabi to Liverpool was he was Rafa because he knew it all. His dad was an ex-player coach, all this stuff. So no surprise, delighted for him as a human being, top, as a player, top. And I'm sure if he continues the way he's going, he's going to be a top manager as well.

He's already proved in a short space of time he's been extremely good. Just where he is now, he's obviously at Real Madrid. Just want to get your thoughts before we go on that. Trent, he's a local lad, a bit of a mirrored career in terms of coming through the system, boyhood club, becoming successful there and then his decision to go to Real Madrid. What side of the fence were you sat on?

Well if I take my Liverpool hat on, I think any player in the game when Barcelona and Real Madrid come, it's going to turn your head. This is me speaking without my Liverpool hat on at the moment. Real Madrid came for me with Mourinho, serious, and it turned my head. It didn't get as much traction and noise as Chelsea because it was shut down pretty quick because of the timing of it and what Real Madrid wanted me to do to manufacture that.

So it never got the traction or the noise, but it took me out. It took me out, for sure, it's Real Madrid. So without me Liverpool out on Real Madrid and Barcelona, whether you like it or not, it'll be a night of fan Liverpool, fan Barcelona, they're two humongous clubs and when they come it's going to turn your head, no matter who you're at, it's going

to turn your head. Or you're not, you're not human, they're going to turn your head. So I can understand it from being in Trent's shoes. I can understand it, I get it. His best mate plays there, maybe wants to challenge himself. He's won everything at Liverpool. So there's a part of me that really understands it. But as soon as I put my Liverpool hat back on,

I think, what are you doing? What are you doing? You're arguably one of the best teams in Europe. You're winning things that I sit here now and still dream of winning. You're winning European Cups, you're one of the main men, the fans adore you.

What are you doing? But this would be the pull that on, because I love Liverpool Football Club.

Do you agree with the stick he got though?

I understand it. I understand it. And you know the stick he got, so what? I got it. I understand it. And you know the stick you got? So what? I got it. The next person that flirts with Real Madrid or Barcelona or blah blah blah, they're going to get stick. We play a game with millions and millions of people that are paying good money or they're all on social media, you're going to get a bit of stick. You're going to get a bit of stick.

It is what it is. The stick that goes above the line I don't agree with. The abuse, I don't agree with that with any player. That's not for me, that's just a load of bollocks. That's got to stop. But constructive criticism from a fan who's paying money and buying your shirt and blah blah blah, they deserve to have anything. They're the same people that were like watching Trent goals on the phone and blah blah blah, they deserve to have an opinion. They're the same people that were like watching Trent's goals on the phone, blah blah blah, or spending three grand to go to

Dortmund to see Trent score a free kick. They're the same people that adore him, that are spending 90 quid on a shirt. You've got to accept it, get on with it.

It is what it is.

That is constructive opinions in football. You have to get on with with, you have to accept. Just get on with it. And he has. He has. I just think he took a big risk on. He's an extremely good footballer, a very talented footballer, one of the best passers I've ever seen and I've played with some good passers. He's up there with them. He's in the conversation with Beckham and Scholes.

No problem. But to lead Liverpool Football Club where he was at in the prime years, getting off of the new contract, he took a risk on in my opinion. And I think he's living that risk now. I hope it works for him because I love the kid.

Love the kid to bits. I wouldn't have done it.

You didn't do it?

But he's good enough to make it work. He's good enough to make it work. I wouldn't have

done it.

Before we go I've got to ask you, it's probably the biggest question and if you want me to start a petition I will. When's the Steven Gerrard statue going up at Anfield? I've seen loads of statues around, where's yours?

There's enough respect and I think the club have gone above and beyond for me. If you knew what that club had done for me, not through my career, from the moment I stopped being a Liverpool player, if you knew the respect that club had given me, it'd blow your mind. It blows your mind. The phone calls I've had from the top, the things that they've done for me, family, the invitations, the care, the after-player respect that I've had off that club

blows your mind. It's good to listen.

It blows your mind.

I don't need a statue to feel the love off Liverpool. There's enough, there's been enough. My respect for Liverpool has only gone stronger and thicker and more fonder since the day I retired. Because in my mind I thought you just fizzled into the... Liverpool Football Club have given me more love and care and respect since I've stopped playing for them.

Good answer. Stevie, top man. Waited a long time to get you man.

I know, I still decided to put this one off. I know, I still decided to put this one off.

Thanks man, appreciate it. Top draw.