SUSNO KE MAHFUD: SAYA TIDAK MENYESAL JADI POLISI

I was cheated and accused of wanting to destroy KPK. I used to beat him up all the time. Mr. Mahfud said, I now accept the consequences of all this, and I have to rot in prison. I am sincere as a victim.

But I ask Mr. Mahfud to continue to fight. You can punish people in commit corruption and murder. What can you say about that? For example, I was punished with a number that is not my number. As a person who was raised by the police, but at the same time, you were also raised by the police, but at the same time, he was also raised by the police.

You were even bullied.

Mr. Susto, until now, have you ever regretted being a police officer?

This is the time when the police are faced with a choice.

Do you want to change or not?

Almost all police departments have reformed the police since the reform. But none of them succeeded. I'm not disappointed with his statement. Continue it and hopefully it will be revealed. My argument is not with Mr. Susno, but with capolri. These three people are the ones who became the capolri for a while.

With a tendency like capolri. Until the police is good, is looked at by the president, whether the president gives time two years or how long, it's up to the president.

Mr. Susno, thank you for visiting.

I'm very happy, sir. I feel honored. I miss you too, Mr. Susno, thank you for coming. It's my pleasure, Pak. I feel honored. I miss you too, Pak Susno. Even though I miss you, if not for Martin Eden, I would never break up with you.

I always follow you, Pak Susno.

I always, Pak. Physically, we rarely meet.

But our hearts and minds are the same for Indonesia. Pak Susno 2D.

Even though I'm in the village, Pak.

You're in the village.

Alright, sir.

Please, sir.

Where, sir? Salam, sir. Thank you, sir. You're in the middle. The important guest is in the middle.

The important guest is from the village, sir.

Alright,

I'm Mirza. There's no village in Google, sir. I invite a special guest. In the legal debate, I and Mr. Susun are friends. We can have different opinions, but we have one idea. For the sake of the law, we have to make a law. I and Mr. Susno are friends. We are friends, we can have different opinions,

but we have one idea for the law enforcement in Indonesia. I have often said who are friends. Friends are people who have a strong desire to fight together, regardless of their age. My age and Mr. Susno's age are about the same, but I often invite older guests,

like 10, but I also invite young people. I think it can be a good opportunity to inspire young people to show up in the country of Indonesia to make a change. I am Madura, Mr. Pagaralang. Pagaralang, Pak.

Sulawesi Selatan.

Sulawesi Selatan.

Masirizala, please.

Masirizala. Thank you, Pak Susilo. Thank you, Pak. Mas Inisal, please. Pak Susuno, thank you. I want to say thank you. I heard your story from Dusun. 7 hours' journey from Pagar Alam to Palembang. From Pagar Alam to Palembang, 7 hours.

Then you flew here and attended the event with Pak Mahfud. I, Pak Mahfud, want to continue a little. To the netizen. For netizen friends who are now in the Gen Z, Alpha generation, maybe they don't know Mr. Susno Dwaji enough because he was once a top, about 15 years ago, right? 2009-2010.

Now you can see him appearing on TV interviews, on podcast, giving legal statements, like like Pak Mahfud also often speaks, he also has a podcast. But in the past, in the era of 2009-2010, his name was not as popular as it is now.

People even said at that time, what is it called, public enemy. Yes, enemy. Become a public enemy. Become a public enemy. I even read the writing of Pak Mahfud in a media, the title is like this, Susno Duwaji, Pahlawan untuk Pengkhianat. Sampai begitu Pak. Ada dua wajah Pak Susno. Yang kali ini Pak,

kita program Ruang Sahabat itu tidak semata-mata bicara tentang persahabatan Bapak, tapi kadang-kadang ada nilai yang itu disambung oleh peristiwa. I will go to you, Pak. What is it that motivates you to invite your fellow villagers to come here and talk? I will start with you, Pak. to the police. And people are now urging the police. This is the right momentum to improve because the public is urging the police and is hoping for a reform team. Even though many people are disappointed. Why? They want to be trained, but we still have to make it. And I remember when I took over the AMK,

I was a bit angry with Mr. Susno.

So, the story has started. The friendship started with this anger.

We accused him, at that time, Mr. Susno was one of the people who wanted to destroy the KPK. We were behind the KPK at that time. Pak Mahfud was defending the KPK at that time, very hard. Pak Susno was accused of wanting to destroy the KPK because of the term, Cicap Buaya incident. You've heard Cicap Buaya. If you have, please tell us about it. I was touched by the story of Mr. Susno.

I think it was after he was criminalized, I realized that the police were great. They were kind. Why? I was touched. When he was sent to prison,

he sent me a letter. Mr. Susno. He said, I have now received the consequences of all this, and I have to rot in prison. I am sincere as a victim,

but I ask you to continue to fight. I used to beat him up all the time. But he sent me a letter. I kept fighting. Indonesia needs a legal advocate. So, at that time, the one who sent the letter was your friend, Henry. Henry Yoson.

Henry Yoson.

I couldn't reply to this letter. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Now, I often meet him on the podcast, but I don't meet him directly. He is on TV.

The same view, the same value that is being challenged. He often refers to me, I often refer to him too. That's it. A great, good, and a fighter policeman, I said. But he wanted to accept the consequences and after he got out of prison, then he became a farmer. Back then, if you were to call him Mr. Baris Krim,

he was already a member of the Kapolri. He was already a step away. The Kapolri member must have been Mr. Baris Krim. That was the assumption at the time. But he fell when he was very popular at the time. Later on, I will be explained later.

I will explain it again.

Pak Susno, Pak Mahfud rarely looks into the eye, Pak. He rarely looks into the eye to talk about his friend. How was it, Pak? Yes, in 2009, Pak.

Yes, in 2009. How was it?

It was, how to say it, dark. Dark, dark. But we couldn't sleep. And it was not the time of social media. We still had SMS and it was paid. I followed it. And I was very happy with him. I knew him since he was in PEDUI. I was in Jogja.

In UI Jogja. You were also in Jogja at that time.

There were several seminars that he was talking about. What was your role in Jogja at that time? Waka Pores, Sir.

Waka Pores, Jogja.

Then I arrived in Surabaya. I arrived in the teaminkum Polri, which was in the 30 laws, including the Money Laundering Law, and the KPK Law. I was in the organization. So, I was called to destroy an institution that I was in the same committee with Pak Jen Bajaber, if I'm not mistaken. Pak Jen Bajaber? Yes, from the P3 committee. From the government, Pak Romli Aksaspita.

Romli Aksaspita.

We were compared to several countries in the KPK law. I was cheated and accused of wanting to destroy the KPK. Even though I was very close to the KPK people, both Pak Antasari, the late maupun Pak Bibit Samad, dan lain-lain. Saya di... kok sampai begitu gitu. Bisanya media pada waktu itu memutarbalikannya. Padahal di luar...

Kopini ketika itu?

Iya. Di luar itu saya ketemu Pak Bibit gitu. Pak Bibit, gimana ini kok bisa begini? Pak Antasari, how could you do this?" And Pak Antasari was already in jail before. In Polda Metro. I cried when he was in jail. I came in the middle of the night. I asked Iwan Bule. I asked for permission. Even though I was in Berkrim. I asked for permission from Pak Antasari. He was detained by the police. I went to the detention room. We ate fried banana and chatted. I said,

Sir, we are strong. We are not strong. Because at that time, I, Pak Antasari, and

Jampidom. Jampidom. Jampidom. We thought we were the best. He was in charge of IT, I was in charge of all the mafia. Jampidom wanted to take over, but it turned out that he wasn't strong enough. Alhamdulillah, everything was destroyed. All three of them were destroyed. I was in the Cecak Buaya area. I compared the Polri and KPK

food products. I couldn't understand the power. There was a reporter, I think he was a tempo reporter. I don't know what kind of reporter he was. We were both just installing food products.

Which one was better, the Poulri tool and the KPK. How do I tell you? There's a crack in the wall. But how? If we want to eat, the crack is there. The tool is cracked.

Only a few tens of Sadaf can do that. If you have Poulri, just use it. It can be thousands of cracks. Just be the title of Cacak Buaya.

We'll continue later. This is a very touching opening. Later, there are parts of our interview to get into that.

Pak, we have several parts of the dialogue. I'll start, Pak Mahfud. So, there's about MK and Bori. This is the time of friendship and development of good relationship between Pak Mahfud and Pak Soed. Persahabatan sekaligus permusuhan. Persahabatan di dalam permusuhan atau permusuhan dalam persahabatan. Musuh itu kan musuh ide.

Yang lainnya ketujuhannya sama. Lalu ada follow the money, keseriusan mereka, tension mereka pada pemberantasan korupsi. Lalu reformasi kepolisian. Ini yang lagi hangat sekarang. I had a discussion with Mr. Mahfud as a member of the committee. Then there was a voice of bravery. It made them still heard until now and people want to follow Mr. Susno and Mr. Mahfud's views.

I started with MK and the political group. Mr. Mahfud, please go first. Mr. Susno has already talked a little bit. When the Cicak Boya case came up, Mr. Mahfud, as the head of the Constitutional Court, and then we listened to the recording of the conversation between Anggo Dewi Jojo and some people,

and there was Mr. Susno's voice, and all kinds of things. Can you tell us, sir, what it was like? I will ask Mr. Susno to tell us later. This is the main problem. Suddenly, Bibit Samatriato and Candera Hamsa were suspected. According to the law, if a KPK members are suspected, they have to stop as KPK. If these two people are suspected, the KPK will collapse. Why? Because there are only two left. Antasari has been in the country for a long time.

The CP people are angry. It means that this is a murder against the KPK. That was the beginning of the idea, how to save these two people. The idea came from Bambang Wijoyanto as the host of Bibitna, that he had a recording, this is a recording, the arrest of the perpetrator is a recording. How to prove it is-recayasa?

We have the recording. If there is proof, it means that the article that can stop the suspect can be used as a tool for criminalization and that is against the constitution. Noah Aribut's testimony was on the National Committee.

It was on the news, right? I was the witness at the court.

That was live, right?

Yes.

Was it live?

Yes.

I was watching.

I was watching.

I was not with Mr. Susno, but with the police. At that time, I was forced to record the case. The police, Mr. Bambang Indar Sudarno?

Yes. Okay, the PHD.

Yes, at that time. But no. I was a judge. I was brought to the court by the government. I just said, if you want to tell a story, just tell it. I said, I didn't get in. I wasn't told. Then, the situation was reversed.

After that, Candar Raham got in. the one who was blamed was Mr. Susno the ice cream shop owner in 2009 right?

yes, I was the ice cream shop owner

the one who was blamed well, he was a bit emotional he was from Palembang

the ice cream shop owner was quite a gangster

the one who was blamed was there, Marcus Marcus the office was also there

that was the next's the next hembo.

I was accused. I was just fired. Marcus was at the office of Mr. Kapurni. I was angry. Then, I was put into criminalization process,

and I was imprisoned. So, that case, was really a different position, right? Mr. Mafud defended KPK He's defending from here to there He's considered as the one who's controlling the KPK

He's been criminalized by his own people That's why he sent me a letter My struggle here is firm Mr. Mahfud must continue to fight

I admire Mr. Mahfud

That's amazing I read it I'll go to Mr. Susno first I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm not Teronojo 3. I'm Kabariskrim.

One is Kapolri. The second one is Kapolri. I'm Kabariskrim. I have my own name. We were called Kabariskrim. I'm not Teronojo 3. I'm not Teronojo 3.

I'm not Teronojo 3. I'm not Teriskrim. The first one is Kapolri. The second one is Wakapolri. I'm Kabariskrim, I have my own name. I have my own name, I'm number one. Well, outsiders think that Tronojo Yo3 is me.

But Tronojo Yo3 is one of the directors. I didn't mention his name. Maybe it's not called Tronojo Yo3, because usually Kabariskrim is number one. hmm Oh, that one, the one who looks like Pak Susno? Yes, not me. Okay, next. The name Trono 3 was called by Anggodo as Trono 3. Trono 3 is that one. But I didn't say his name. Pity, my brother is retired.

His name. In terms of KPK, I didn't join at all. Because I was suspected at that time. The one who joined was my representative as the team leader. Yang ikut itu wakil saya sebagai ketua timnya. Kemudian pemeriksaannya pun, penahanannya pun tidak di Baris Krim, tapi di Poldam Metro. Sampai pernah saya tunjukkan ini loh, surat-surat penentuan tersangka, surat-surat perjalanan dinas, biaya-biaya, nggak ada sama sekali ke Baris Krim. I respect him. And I am one of his admirers until now. So, let's close it. But don't let it happen again. Including me, I hold on to it until now, it makes me excited. There is a statement from him in some media.

That punishing people is not difficult. And it still happens until now. Why not the students? Instead, the teachers, the students, the judges, the judges, and the lawyers. Why the lawyers? The lawyers are not too sure that they want to defend this. They said, tomorrow we can go here and there. All three of them have agreed.

Even the lawyers in corruption cases can be killed. What can be said about it? I can even punish people who are involved in corruption and murder. What kind of reason can you give? For example, I was punished with a number that is not my number.

Which case is this?

The one that put me in jail. The number is not my number. It's someone else's number. It's a woman's number. It's not my problem. But I can be punished. Berkas orang lain, perempuan lagi. Masalahnya bukan masalah saya. Tapi bisa dihukum? Bisa. Uy nyata saya dihukum.

Ya kan tadi itu tadi menuding.

Menuding ini?

Di situ. Ya, ya. Sebelum situ ya. Pak, yang tadi Pak Kapten soalnya. Kenapa Pak Susno membongkar? you said that in the office, in Mabes Polri, there was a case file office. What was the background? Well, I was, how to say, in the old days, I was not an angel, but I wanted the police to be good. I wanted to be good, but I was invited to do other things, I didn't want to do other things. But when the police was in a panic, the police was in a panic,

and everything was blacklisted, I was the one who was blacklisted. I was the mafia, I was the architect for KPK and everything. I was friends with all of them. I was friends with Pak Antasari, I was friends with Pak Bibit Samad.

I even had an agreement with Pak Bibit Samad, until I and Mr. Bibit Samad formalized the LSM, MAKI, Indonesian Anti-Corruption Community.

You also formalized it?

Yes, I formalized it. MAKI is now led by Boyamin.

Boyamin, yes.

There's a branch in Palembang, in Lahat. I formalized it with Mr. Bibit. Mr. Bibit Sama. Because of the spirit of corruption. The spirit of corruption. Well, when I was in prison, I made it official. So that the public would know. So that the public would know. If I was really a corruptor, I wouldn't want to do that.

But I made it official. Well, until Pak Bibit Sama, now he's not active anymore because he's old. He's old. He's probably in my 80s. I had no enemies, especially with Mr. Antasari. I told him about this incident because I was in a great relationship with Mr. Antasari and Mr. Kemas. We were so close. We were both mafia, law mafia, Mopia Hukum, Bank Senturi, Bank Indoper. I went to the Netherlands.

Pak Anta Asari, the late, I'm sorry if I'm being too formal. I dare to hit the IT and all. It turns out that we, the law, in enforcing it, we have to be strong and willing.

We have to be ready.

Ready. Pak, yes, man. I was a young man. I was a young man. I was a young man.

I was a young man. I was a young man. I was a young man. I was a young man. I was a young man. I was a young man. I was a young man. I was a young man. I was a young man. I'm sure 80% of the population is good people, but they don't show up, they're afraid of the police. I'm afraid to see an example. I'll go back to you, Pak. When he was suspected, I read in the media, you also commented. So, I think you were questioning his suspicions.

What was in Mr. Mahfud's reading at that time, sir? Until he commented on Mr. Susno. Even though Mr. Mahfud saw that Mr. Susno, as was the scenario, was accused of weakening the KPK. Wait, before you continue, let me see.

Please, sir. Pak Buyung Almarhum, until I was invited to his house. Pak Buyung, the head of the 8th team at that time, then recommended you to be asked to step down. After that, he invited me. I was surprised too. There was a witness at his house. I was invited, I told him the story.

Finally, he was like this. Good, he said he was fighting. That was after the incident, you were asked to step back. He asked me to step back. I said, if he asked me to step back, I would. Finally,

after about two or three days, I was allowed to go to his house. I came. I was escorted by his assistant. He said, I just found out. That's why I commented on it.

At that time, we had already noticed that all the attacks against the KPK were done by Mr. Susno. He was already in public. He was suspected, and he was always cornered. I thought it was not right. So I asked Mr. Susno, it turned out that he was a good man.

He said that he could not fight the media anymore. He said that he could not. He said that he could not. I felt sorry for him. I thought that this was the way. So I started to change.

Maybe in this matter, he was responsible for the news about the ice cream. So, I felt sympathy. So,

I started to defend against fate. He started to reveal that he was being criminalized. He was being targeted for criminalizing the KPK. After that, he was the one who was criminalized.

At that time, it was the police who were doing it. Then, the crowd, even the one who was in charge, I was not, I was a member of the Kabare Scream. I was a member of the 3-star group. I was arrested by the NABU. I was in the airport and I was broadcasted. Yes, that's a public case, Sir.

If it was a kid, they wouldn't know. By his junior? Yes, by his junior. I was broadcasted in Pojo. I was like,

where is this?

I want to continue what you got a letter from him. I want to ask you, you were detained, if I'm not mistaken, for 3.5 years. You were doing that. Before I was punished, I wrote a letter. Before you were punished, I was already in jail.

In the remobility detention center. But before I was in jail, I still had had a chance to write a letter to my family. And the outsider I saw was him. I mean, I was not disappointed with his statement. I continued it, hoping that it would be revealed. And this is a very complex problem.

Why is it complex? Because there was a problem with the KPK, and also with the internal polri. What is internal polri? At that time, the replacement of the KPK was coming. Mr. Bambang Indarso. I'm not saying that I'm the best, ready to be a candidate. But that's how it is. Because I want to replace Kapolri, and Kapolri was chosen. Politically, there was a hand in the PPR, there was also a nomination from the president. I have no intention to be Kapolri. But maybe others think I'm crazy. Why am I not intending? I don't deserve to be a capori. There's no cut, no nothing.

But why am I being... Okay, I'll stop there. I'll continue. Pak Mahfud, after the incident, you became friends with...

Yes.

How was your relationship?

We met very rarely meet each other. But he always appears. When I'm out of jail, he's always a strong man. I feel like we're through. We talk about the law,

injustice, and so on. He's always in line with my ideas. He's a good guy. He has a lot of experience on the field. So if he talks, I will make a reference too. Even though I also see on some televisions

also often quote me. It's the same, you quote each other. It's true that he is a scholar, sir, if you give a comment.

Yes, no, I'm a farmer.

So since then, you decided to go back to farming? Since then, sir? Because my pension is only 4 million. It's not enough for me and my wife, even though our children are family. It's enough.

I said, we have a search. What? He's a farmer. Are you strong? I said, no. Use this. Well's a farmer. You're not strong enough. I said, no. I'll use this. Well, it's like that. Because the inheritance of the parents is quite good.

For the income, then we change the type of planting, we change the way we manage it. And what else, sir? What is it called? Having a lot of employees, giving jobs to people. Yes, giving jobs. A lot of people work there. The end is very noble for a general, Pak Mahfud. He went home to farm, his pension is that much,

so he can still manage.

He can, Pak. He has a lot of things to do. He still dares to speak firmly about law and justice. Because he feels that what he went through in the past did not damage his personal quality as a fighter. It's just fate. In a nutshell, it was a criminalization.

Everyone knows that it was a criminalization. How can someone who manages the KPK here be associated with the Jawa-Barat incident?

It's been a long time.

It's been a long time, sir. It's the same. Even Jim Lee said there was a long-writing.

There was a long-writing. Pak Jim Lee aja mengatakan ada tulisan nya, peradilan sesat. Itu kasusnya perkadaan jabar Pak ya?

Saya dituduh nganukan perkadaan jabar. Padahal pertanggungjawab sebelum serta terima sudah di audit. Auditnya clear and clean. Oleh BPK sudah di audit clear and clean. Dan bahkan, sama sekali serupiah pun enggak ada. Tapi mereka-mereka yang dijadiin saksi ini kan gak ada saksi yang mengatakan bahwa saya yang ngambil itu. Nah yang lucu

lagi saya dituduh, wah menerima orang dari Arwana. Mana? Oh saya gak pernah ketemu orangnya. Gak pernah. Dia mengatakan si orang itu gak pernah juga. Kemudian mengatakan ada saksi I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. I was there. Yes, it's the same pattern. The criminalization pattern is like that. People are accused of things that they didn't do. When they rebelled, they were only held accountable by the court. The court.

The court has already settled it. It's the same, Sir. When I cut off Candera Hamzah and Bibit Samad, they were accused for corruption, even though they are not in Indonesia, when the police answer, you can answer it in court.

You can cut it off. You don't have to go to court. I will cancel the law first. You can go to court.

It's like a general can be punished like that, especially in the ordinary society.

In the scenario, if you are convicted, you will be punished.

A minister can be prosecuted, sir. If the justice system is still like this, a minister can be prosecuted. There are many examples. He can be released and he can be imprisoned. That's why I salute his achievements yesterday.

Who was the mother?

Ira.

Ira Busmadewi. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. That's the opinion of the law. Law is for justice. Justice. There is no sense of justice. What do you get with 4.5 years in prison? Do you get billions? No.

If all policies from the board or the director are threatened with punishment, in every business policy, there must be a loss. No one wants to be the director. Make all the executives kaput. I'm a psychologist. No one wants to be a director. Make Kapo all executive, right? Yes. Hopefully, he will be quoted by the lawmakers, how Magarito. Hopefully.

Okay, sir. Let's continue. It's been a long time since we talked about one topic.

Just about introductions and arguments.

Because of nostalgia.

Nostalgia. So beautiful.

Nostalgia is always beautiful.

Same with Mid-End Jogja. Jogja Connection. Follow the money. something that is considered as corruption. What is it, Pak Susono, that makes you feel that way?

And that is also what you feel, Pak Mahfud?

First, he became the Minister of Public Works. I am very proud, very happy. And we know that the Minister of Public Works' election is not directly checking the things. But with the strategy he applied, there are things that involve taxes. perkara yang parah. Tapi dengan strategi yang beliau terapkan, ada misalnya perkara yang menyangkut pajak. Siapa itu yang korupsi sampai sekian itu kan? Beliau undang KPK, PPATK, kemudian dari, apa namanya, dia berjuang pajak, kemudian dari Menteri Keuangan. Itu strategi yang sangat gitu. Saya sampai salut dua tangan, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I said, I Tapi strategi itu kalau masih diterapkan oleh Menko Polkam yang sekarang, itu bagus sekali. Jadi Polkam itu hidup, ya bukan saya kena beliau disini ya,

Om Kami kadang musuhan kok.

Persis.

Polkam itu betul-betul hidup, karena dia kan mengkoordinasi Polri, Kejaksaan, kemudian PPATK,

TNI?

Enggak, TNI? No, TNI. And all the legal officials, including the immigration officer. So, there is this kind of mess that has to be continued, the KPK has to be continued, and so on. Why? Now, his strategy is very influential. The largest party in Indonesia is not party A or party B, but the Netizen party. The Netizen party is extraordinary, especially the Netizen in Indonesia. I was so busy. I was so busy. I was so busy. I was so busy.

I was so busy. I was so busy. I was so busy. I was so busy. It's not bad, sir. Even though there are still some left, but many of them are still connected. The money laundering is 300 letters, right? Maybe the big ones are almost all in. But in various prisons, in various cities.

In various cities, it's not one. So, it's hard to see where the results are. There are actually a lot. And now, those who have been in, there are also a lot of them. Six or a few.

Yes, that's the case in the 9 trillion village, sir.

In your era, there was Indover, Bukas. Indover, Papiapajak. Then what's the name? What's the name? What was done by Gayus Tambunan.

Senturi.

Senturi. I called him, because it was so close, why did it end up on the fence? I thought there were still many people there, and the fence itself said, not only me, but also the others. So, if Mr. Purbaya, who is now the tax officer, is right. I'm sorry, but the one who's been in charge of the press and all that, there's a case that's been unresolved for 10 years, 5 years. Manil Paul Rumani.

Yes, yes.

He's still in prison, right?

Yes, yes. 12 years, sir. 12 years without any further action.

Rafael.

Yes, Rafael Alon. He's in prison now.

He's been released.

Not yet, the BLBI case, sir. It's been 20 years, it can still be opened and prosecuted.

Now, one BLBI. Now, the topic is, where is the money that has been cut by the court? It must be put into the National Bank of Indonesia, right? The state's acceptance is not taxable. From the court decision, so many trillions were mentioned.

Yes, yes. The public also asks. I don't know. I don't know either. Pak Mahfud is being watched. So, even though he is not in the government, he is the biggest spender. He said he was going to pay the boss. That's what we talked about Pak Mahfud.

Now, Pak Mahfud, we talked about Pak Susun. Pak Mahfud sees, as someone who, what is it, the police was once in a strategic position, but now you still care, sir. You still care to criticize or even say that the institution should be like this. What is your attitude towards that? That's the product of the education of the former Polri in the past.

That's the doctrine. So, it still applies to the country. It will not betray in any circumstances, sir. The point is for the country and the people. So, I think such doctrines are closely related to the era of the old police, sir. The era of the police, Pak Susno, who was still taught the values of struggle such as hugeng and so on. Now, it is more about physical and physical strength. In practice, we are told to do push-ups,

to do push-ups, to do push-ups. The heart is not touched by the great doctrines. Not the heart and cognition that are touched, but more to the physical now. So, to the physical, to be trained. Actually, it is a about the physical. So, it's about the physical. Actually, it's a training, but it's also a hard training.

Well, it should be empathy towards the society, and to be grateful to the society. Even like this, I just found out yesterday, Mr. Susno, in the police, it turns out that there is a certain code of ethics. The courage to fight against the superior if you are wrong.

Now, no one is brave enough.

Right, Pak Susno?

Yes, I am brave.

I am not wrong.

But, in the code of ethics, there is a rule. Yes, there is. I told Pak Ano yesterday. We have a code of ethics. We must be brave enough to fight against the superior if we are wrong. the problem with our people. That's what you did first, right? Yes, that's what I did first. Now, there's no problem.

Everyone is on the side, if there's something wrong. Well, this kind of spirit must be taught back to the police, so that it becomes a people's police. Because then, I think

people are becoming aware now. Public people, who don't understand the rules of the country, don't understand politics, people are now aware, the public, who do not understand the rules of the country, do not understand politics, people are now aware that the army is now entering the fields that are not their own. Because people are angry with the police. Even though it should not be allowed for the TNI to enter there.

Then the people said, the police are like that, let the army finish everything. This is not good. So, I have to re-plant the feeling. The feeling of empathy to the people. The feeling of unity with the people. The feeling of unity with the people. The feeling of unity with the people.

The feeling of unity with the people. I'm confused. That's what he said. I'm confused. If it's Mr. Asusno, he's not confused.

He's talking.

Because I was sent away. So, that's what's not alive now. He said, you're confused. The point is, everything, if it's above, it's going to be corrected. Now.

So, it feels safe.

Like that.

It feels comfortable. You can promote, I can mutate, because I don't dare to fight anymore. Those who dare to fight a little are eliminated. If this is not fixed, if this is not fixed, later other forces will destroy, will take over again. Even though we have given, in the reformation, Mr. Susno. Yes, he is the one who reformed.

Yes, that's why, sir. The one who got rid of the police from TNI in the era of the police.

We were all in a big crowd.

Getting out of TNI was a great achievement. Amazing. Even the MPR said to get rid of the police. Then the law was passed, right? But it was passed first, then the law was passed. In his era.

Now it's time for us to move to the reformation. Before we go there, I want to continue what you said earlier. But, Pak Susna, as a person who was raised by the police, but at the same time also fell and woke up in the police, even you were bullied,

have you ever regretted being a police officer?

No. I actually really love the police. I can meet Pak Mahpot, the top person, because of the police, Pak. If it wasn't for the police, I wouldn't be here. And I can be a policeman who is very proud, Pak. Why proud? I became a police officer, arrested people, imprisoned people,

the law enforcement team, the police team, it's rare for a police officer to be in the legal team. And I was the one who was imprisoned.

That's a privilege.

No, not all police officers are complete like me.

Amazing.

If there was a star here, my star would be here, sir. Because there's a prison sign.

Amazing. Mr. Afud, how was it, sir. Because there's a sign for the prison. Amazing. Mr. Mahfud, how is it, sir? What is it called? In this era, we are in the process of handing over the police. What do you think you can share? I will ask Mr. Sus to explain

what is the connection with the police reformation that can be conveyed to Mr. Mahfud. Mr. Mahfud first.

This is the time I ask you about the reformation of the police, and you can tell us about it. Mr. Mahfud, please. Now, the police is facing a choice. Will they change or not? If they don't want to change, it will be too late. Everything will be in chaos again. Not only the police, our country's order will also be in chaos again.

If the police don't want to change. Why do I mention this? First, now the public's voice against the police is extraordinary, challenging, talking about various things about how the police are always, but also hope that the formation of this Reform Commission is a door to change. And I happened to be around, Mr. Susno, I went around, I went around, many people came. I was just a passerby. I was visited by many people.

It turned out that there were many people. The police officers were smart and good. Smart and good. But they often didn't dare to speak up. Why? Because, in my opinion,

the relationship between the commanders is very strong. Then, there is the oath that you are brave enough to fight against the superior if you are wrong, but there is also another oath that has not been bridged yet, the oath of loyalty to the king. Loyalty to the king.

Loyalty to the king.

So, if you go up, don't fight, don't betray. This is what you are fighting for,'t fight, don't give birth. Do you think you are being opposed by the holy priest and dare to behave like that? The holy priest who was misinterpreted, sir.

By the police.

By the police now?

Actually, the holy priest who said Pak Mahput is loyal to the country, not to the president, not to the caporal. But by these people, it means loyalty to the superior. That's right.

It's twisted to loyalty to the superior.

That's right, what you said, Pak Mahaput. If it's reversed, the king is not the king in terms of people. People. Country.

Loyalty to the country.

But now it's wrong, Pak. That's right, Pak.

Pak Susno.

We say to the people, Pak Susno. I'm a friend of Pak Maput. From Dusun to here, he is close to the Police Deformation Commission. What do you think is very important or fundamental that needs to be done in the police so that it becomes a police that is loved by the public? Okay. I talked on Twitter, talked on several podcasts, including on television. I was asked for the reform. I had high hopes when Pak Maput's name was the only one that was just circulated. And I called the president. Oh, I did it. If with the reform committee made by Polri, there is an internal one. I said, yes, it's good too. But it's impossible to succeed.

Why? Pak Sigit has been a police leader for five years. It didn't work.. Why did they make another committee? Why did I say that? It's because the outsiders have to reform. Almost all the police departments have reformed since the reform. But none of them succeeded. How many departments have failed? If it works, it means that the police don't need to be reformed now. Bapak Kapurin gagal semua. Kalau berhasil berarti nggak perlu polisi itu direformasi sekarang. Nah sekarang keluarlah tim Pak Mahput,

saya bangga. Tapi ada kekecewaan publik dan beberapa kok masuk lagi beberapa polisi gitu kan. Nah sekarang bagaimana polisi itu bisa berhasil? Saya katakan di beberapa media bahwa kalau tim ini akan menghasilkan produk berupa kertas, ini tidak akan berhasil. Karena kertas yang lama, buatan lembaga-lembaga pendidikan, buatan kajian-kajian, ini kalau diukur, udah sampai ke bulan loh, Pak.

Tidak bagus.

Bagus-bagus. Tapi nyatanya itu nggak berhasil. Tapi maunya yang apa? Yang talk chair kayak like this. The wrong one is this, the wrong one is this. One. Which is directly made for this point, this point, this point. Well, I hope this will succeed. There are three ways to reform.

One, which is a revolution. For example, in several countries. Bolivia and others, including in Hong Kong. Dissolve it. Make it new. But in Hong Kong, disbanded. But in our country, it's impossible.

The number of police officers is 400,000 or more. In an island like this. This is very revolutionary. Second, cut off the generation gap. I don't think it's possible. Maybe some are disappointed, some are not.

Maybe the selection is wrong. Third, maybe it's against the law. But our president is very strong in the field of law. Why is he so strong? This is 75% of the DPR, right? The coalition of Mr. Prabowo. Then our president, he is the one who understands this law the most, is given the power to make a mess. There are those who are opposed to it, and they are first made to fuss, then they are put in charge of the DPR. What is the example? This may seem like a crazy idea, but for something extraordinary, it must be extraordinary too. There are only three commissions. Maybe Pak Mapot, Pak Jimli, Pak Yusril. He was the one who took over the leadership of Polri.

Kolektif Kolgial. Where did he go? Well, it was an idea. It wasn't finalized yet. And I'm sure he was resigned for a year or two. Why? He didn't need to write any more articles. He just talked about it. He If a couple is not good, change it. If a rule is not good, or it's good but it's not implemented. Because it functions as a couple, right? Hold the budget, change the rules, and so on.

Oh, violate the law? Well, make a decree. So that the decree can be made into a law. After the couple is good, for example, for a year or two, give it back to the president. So, there must be a transition period, right? No, there's no transition period. It's directly led by the other technologies that are not as a policy.

It's not just about meetings, but also listening, and it's changed, and changed, and changed. This is still going on, and this is added. Reformation is already happening. Now the idea is that maybe some people will be accepted by the government, changed, some will be elected by the president. But it will be opposed. It will be opposed by violating the law. But the president is very strong. 75% of the people in the PR have a president.

Why is that? Because it's extraordinary. It should be extraordinary but not a revolution. If it's a revolution, it's like some countries are being separated. That's about leadership. But from the point of view of how to stop people's anger towards the police, what should be changed? The success in reforming something is from above. We see how Pak Yonan successfully reformed the train.

Pak Yonan himself, right? Starting from the toilet, from nothing, it changed to the bottom. The success of the telkom, before we had a cellphone, changedah karena Pak Cacu. Cacu sudah re-enter. Keberhasilan, apa namanya, imigrasi sekarang, karena pimpinan imigrasi dari Becukaya pada ingatan itu. Dia berubah, walaupun belum 100% baik. Keberhasilan Garuda, tapi sayang tidak dilanjutkan,

karena kan Roby... Roby Johan. He's the number one leader. Why? Because Pak Kapolri can crush Kapolda. Pak Kapolri can crush Kapores. He's the one who ordered Kapolda to do it.

If there's still Pung Lidi in your place, you'll be the one who'll be killed twice. Kapolda is a tough guy. Kapolda must have ordered the Kapolres. Because the command line was still there. If you do this, you are the one I will take off. And I must have said that, I applied it in West Java.

I can do it. So, I called, if there is one, I will take off, not the copral that is the buyer, you are the one you will be fired. He said, I'm afraid you will be fired. Even though it's not 100% good. I've been in the police force for less than 3 years. I told him, if you are fired, I will break 2 of your police secs. Mas Mufud, where did the idea of this kind of view come from?

It's true. The key is in the leadership. Especially the police, the command system. So, there are people who say that there must be a transition period. But we haven't decided yet. There are a lot of people who say that there must be a transition period. All of this was stopped first. It was immediately held by the president.

The president held it first. This was reformed, it was regulated, but there is a poly-transition, for example. Some say, for example, Mr. Doviri, some say, people suspect that Mr. President is lifting Mr. Doviri, it's about to go that way. So that if it is reformed without a leader,

because it is always going around everywhere,

all of that,

they always vote for it, right?

And they are always smart and good, understand the task, They are always smart and understanding. The leaders that I have met, they come to me. I just have to be above them. And that's the key in politics, right? You said that earlier, right?

You have voiced it. Avoid political interference in the promotion of Kapolri and Panglima TNI. That's what I meant last time. Why? lifting of the capolri and the matenny. That's what I'm trying to do. Why? If I can be a capolri, I'm in the test of the three committees. Three test committees. If I'm done, just call me. Pak Susno, that's our people.

Pak Susno, you're the one in Poldasana, the one who was inspected. Wow, my friend. Our colleague, wow, he's our friend. So, you started to get messages.

Yes, it's time to become a police officer.

Please, sir, take care of us.

I really agree. I think this is good. Because, even though, oh, that's the law. What can't be changed? Without insulting anyone. We want the police to be good. And he has read it. the Bintang 2 bisa jadi Kapolri. Buktinya Pak Timur kan? Sore dinaikkan, besoknya pergi naikkan 4.

Pak Tito juga. Lompat-lompat.

Kalo memang diperlukan.

Terakhir pak, ini suara berani nih. Ini saya kira juga yang paling menyamakan antara 2 sahabat ini soal keberanian. Pak Mafud, if we look at Pak Susno, he is a big deal. From the real or fake justice, the Roy Suryo case, China, China in Cengkok, then the death of young diplomats, all of them appeared and it became a trend. I'm so brave, you have never been criticized by the police or your siblings,

why do you always get in our way? The support from my siblings is amazing.

They are big?

The ones who don't support are the people with black marks. But the white siblings, keep going, keep going. That's why they gave me a ticket. If possible, please make this sound. Until that point?

Yes.

Interesting. This is how it sounds inside. From what I know, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm the one who's bleeding. So, A1. That's why I dare to say it's not right

anywhere. Even though I was first, the first level, right? Goyon Maton. Oh, that's right, the bullet ricochet. The one above can shoot accurately. The one below can't hit the one above. I said, the bullet ricochets like this, duh. I'm The bullets ricochet. The one that was fired from above was accurate. The one that was fired from below didn't hit. The bullets ricocheted like this. I had to find the target.

At that time, Mr. Mahfud was the one who was...

He was the one who was in charge. Did you hear the view of the officers when you were in charge? Yes, yes. How was it? Well, it was like this. I then went to the analyst, and then it was impossible for the actor to be the one to play the role, if not Sambo.

Because he heard from Hypno, Noroko, Pak Susno, and then the experts, they were all on TV. But, if we talk about the Polri reformation, Polri is one of the biggest companies because of politics. Because of that, there should be political courage. And the key to political courage is in the President.

Because it's impossible for the President to say that the DPRK refuses. 75% of the coalition is not brave enough to fight. Even though they are not in coalition. They just stay silent. No one is brave dares to say no. If the president says no, in the current situation,

Prabowo is at the top now to determine everything. So, the input is like this. I will put the side that has been included in the society

into the reformation commission.

This is an extraordinary position. The method must be extraordinary even though it's not a revolution. So, if I were to say, these three people are the ones who will be the temporary capolis

with the same kind of capolis. Until the police is good, the president will look at them, whether the president will give them two years or what. Then, it's up to the president.

It's arranged in the constitution. Later the president points out the capolri among these. But if it's pointed out again, for example, only replacing the capolri, pointed out among the capolri, we don't know which one is right. This is a reform position. These three, whether Pak Maput, Pak Jimli, Pak... who's his name? Rusril. Rusril, three.

Three, not many. This is Kapolri, the leader of KPK.

Collective.

Yes.

For two years, he was fixing the police.

It's up to him. He's the one who's in charge of Kapolri. I'm sure it will be a 100% success. But for now, it's impossible. Because the results of his election are up to the president. The president is very busy. He has to go to the election, he has to be here. When will he read it?

Pak Mahfud, Mr. Susno is also called because he is a police officer. Pak Mahfud is not a police officer, not anyone. What is it that pushes. Mr. Mahfud, while you are not a police officer, what is it that pushes you to be so serious,

to be involved in the police force and to do the best for the police?

Because the police is an important part of the law enforcement. I have been concerned about law enforcement. I always believe, I am confident that the country will only be better if the law is well-established. That is the result of the research of the World Bank in all countries. If the law is good, the country is good. 44% of the assets of the nation's progress are in the law. And the law, in essence, in Indonesia, the problem is in the law enforcement apparatus, not the administration of the law. So, it is part of my conscience to build a good police,

because we want to go to a good democracy. Because a good democracy should be supported by a good police.

That's right.

The President's direction. This country will not progress if the police are not good, if the army is not good, the President said. And coincidentally, the President asked me to go there. But it's true, Mr. Susno,

if it was called Pak Mafut, maybe there was hope, maybe yes, maybe no. But, Mr. Susno, I was asked to help, not to form. If I formed, Mr. Susno would be in. What Mr. Mafut said,

I have quoted it, maybe 5 years ago. He said, if the country wants to move forward, it must follow the law. Investments will not go in. Investments are related to the law. Companies are related to the law. Why do we lose to Vietnam? Because of our law. We don't have the certainty certainty. Not that I don't have a certainty, but it's not a law certainty.

It's not a law certainty. You're crazy. Alright. Sir, I think that's enough, Amun.

Mr. Susno, our dialogue

is about an hour long, but there's a lot of information and values that we can learn, especially from our friends, from our police friends, I will scream if something goes wrong. Once again, thank you Mr. Susno for your time.

Thank you. See you in the next episode. I will play with Mr. Susno's dice. I will play with Mr. Susno's dice. No, no, we will eat durian.