The Austin Reaves Interview | LeBron James and Steve Nash | MIND THE GAME

Coming up on this episode of Mind the Game.

Oh my goodness. Hey, welcome to Mind the Game.

Welcome.

There you go.

Welcome, why not?

Why do you think you won a first round pick? Like, do you think in your heart at that time?

You know why.

Well.

You know why.

I'm not allowed to say it.

I can't.

I know why you thought that shit is. I was just trying to put you on the spot. No, it's true. They look at him. They judge a book by its cover.

You look at me now and you're still like, he can't play basketball. Detroit, backstory, don't draft me. Give us the whole story. I'm going to get right on to it, bae. I'm standing in the corner and I forgot who it was on their bench

was like, you perspective on, uh, just things you're able to do with the ball.

Well, let's start with, why is Brown even in the game right now? It's over. I remember he posted that after the game. My followers went from, like, 60,000 to 7 million.

I'm sorry, man. I had, your phone died, your phone died. Your phone died. Your phone died.

Your phone died. Your phone died. Your phone died.

Your phone died. The team behind Claude. If you're the kind of person who wants to understand the game at a deeper level, Claude is built for you. It's an AI thinking partner that helps you work through complexity, not just surface answers. Try it free at claude.ai slash mind the game.

I'll take that bottle over there. I don't know if I'm gonna do anything with it,

but I'm gonna pour it.

There's one over there too.

You want to check that one? This is so rogue 2020. Let me see that. I'm going to just open it. I'm going to just open it.

Never heard of that one.

No, it's up to you.

I'll drink.

Yeah.

At all.

Nope.

Never have.

Nope.

So this is my golf.

I'm going quarter running. I'm a quarter running. This is me right here. This is me right here. This is me right here. This is me right here.

I'm with the pros.

So we are rolling?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're already rolling. I'm gonna get right on to it. AR, welcome AR into the morning.

What's up, dog?

Hey, man.

There you go.

Oh my God. Don't draft me. Give us the content. Give us the whole story. I'm going to get right on to it, man. Yeah, so my agents, Reggie back there, they set up a plan and the plan was, you know, we knew L.A. had a two way open on draft night and knew it was a situation to where, you know, I could possibly step in, get a contract, because I don't know how many guys were actually under contract at that time.

There was a lot of free agents, a lot of signings to be done. And we knew that going in, they called it 42. And they came up to me and, you know, it's every kid's dream of hearing their name called on draft night. And I'm no different. But, you know, it came down to sticking to a plan.

And that's what we did. And it sucked to not hear my name called, but obviously putting ourself in a good position was much more important.

But there has to be more to it. Like, it was for a two-way deal with the Lakers.

Yeah.

Which became, obviously, before the season you got a deal. But I mean, you could have got a two-way deal from any of those teams. Why the Lakers? Why were you, that was the place I need to go.

Yeah, I think, I mean, they have a bunch of analytics guys that were, you know, grading people, grading teams by, you know, grade one, two, three, whatever it was. And the Lakers, I think it was Lakers, Bucs, maybe one other team that was like tier one, like best possible fit. And your agent. Yeah, our agents. Yeah. With the analytics. OK.

So, you know, kind of dove into that and then listen to that. And then on another note, like we talked about, like there was nobody. I think there was maybe like four or five guys on under contract at the time because they ended up having to sign like seven guys. And then knowing that there was going to be a possibility to snag that 13th, 14th roster spot. And then on top of that, like, damn IQ level. Like, I feel like I have a pretty good IQ,

you know, to the game and felt like, you know, that was one way that I could get in the, you know, my foot in the door was to lean on that and lean on just knowing the game of basketball. And that's what he does.

When was the first time you saw him play? Like not in person or was it in college?

Yeah, actually I had never had seen him play up until the point that we drafted him. Well, not drafted him, but signed him after the fact. And I went back and watched a lot of his Wichita State highlights and games and then a lot of his Oklahoma highlights and games as well. The first thing I noticed, it's kind of funny, we always talk about this, he didn't play like a white boy. It was very different.

His wiggle was very different. I mean, I grew up in Northeast Ohio, so I know white guys playing like white guys and white guys playing like the brothers. And what I could see in his game is that he had a lot of wiggle to his game. And that was one of the one things that,

quite frankly, we were missing. We didn't have. I thought that his game would translate to us. His ability to crack the seams and his ability to get into the paint and him playing, even though their team wasn't as good at Oklahoma, his game kind of, it showed a pro.

And that's what I saw early on. So, as soon as training camp started, I kind of made it a point to kind of beeline it to him and kind of force something into him, maybe even before he even saw it.

Push belief.

Yeah, just push that belief and that confidence, like you belong here. And that I was kind of on him, like pretty much from day one, because I felt like one, we needed that, because we didn't possess that consistently,

but also I saw he had game, too, and I really thought that it could translate to the big leagues.

Did you remember a moment where Bron said something to you or just a feeling of connecting with him early where you're like, oh, he really believes in me?

Well, damn sure it wasn't the game in Brooklyn.

I tell you that.

That clip, we gotta make sure we clip that.

No, that wasn't even my fault. That's another story. But no, it always goes back to, you know, when he had his mini camp in, I think it was, no, it was Vegas, Vegas that year. Before your rookie year. Before, this was before I was under contract

and it was crazy because it was, I think it was like Thursday, Friday, Saturday, we came back Sunday and it was like Wednesday and I didn't even know if I was going yet. And one of my friends back home was getting married that weekend too,

so I was about to buy a flight to go back home. Got the invite, obviously told my friend, like, I can't, can't say no to this one.

There's levels to this shit.

Yeah, so we get in the gym and, well, I think we got to playing like three on three or something, got a couple of buckets and then drove downhill, ate, and I thought I had a layup and then AD come out of nowhere and I was like, oh, fuck. And late second, kind of like behind the back pass to him. He'd come down the lane, dunked it. And then it was just from then on out,

like they were like, you're good. Like just be yourself, him and AD. Then I've given them all the credit I can give them just to, you know, from day one of being like, hey, you don't have to be you, like on the court, off the court,

whatever it is, just be you. It's powerful, right? No, for sure. Especially coming from real players.

Yeah, you know, I had this experience, to sidebar to my experiences, but Kevin Johnson was our point guard in Phoenix, my rookie year. And I mean, I grew up watching this guy play and he was a walking 20 and 10.

And like one day he grabbed me and was like, in the locker room was like, you know you're as good as any guard I've ever played against and I wasn't even playing. It's just from practice floor, watching, playing, competing. And I was like, like, kind of, you know what I mean? You're taking a back a little bit.

And he's like, no, you're as good as anyone I've ever played against. And I was like, that gives you so much confidence that, cause you know, I think we have similar kind of coming from places we're not supposed to come from to play the NBA. And so for someone who's been there, done that, and has the things that like we don't have, like his explosiveness and speed and things like that,

you know, to hear the guys that have done it, say it to you, really can give you a lot of belief. Did you feel like that launched you a little more to just be like, let loose, relax and play?

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, like you said, you're not the most explosive person in the world. Very jealous of people like that. But yeah, it's just, I feel like this whole game is a lot of confidence and IQ. When you know the game and you have high confidence,

I feel like you can do a lot of things. And it wasn't just, you know, him and AD, we had Mello, Russ, Rondo, like I lean on Rondo a lot.

That's a hell of a veteran.

Yeah, so I had, I mean, I had probably the best people that you could talk to possible. And you know, I'm a question asker. I remember I told Rondo, I was like, yo, if I ask you too many questions, you can tell me to shut the hell up. I don't care.

He loves questions.

Yeah, so every time we would be in practice, there's something would happen and I would go over to him or I'd always be standing behind him and just be like, what did you see here? What'd you see there? The confidence that they had in me, the whole group from day one, just, you know, like you said, catapulted me to continue to be better.

So Rondo's like as advertised, like a thinker.

For sure.

Yeah, for sure.

I had to carry a chess board around for him.

Yeah.

Do you ever play with him?

Do you ever play with him?

No, I never played him. I started playing chess a lot my rookie year. And I got decent, but I still was a little nervous to play him because I felt like he would be nice. So I never played him, but.

I forgot you used to play chess before this.

Sounds funny.

I remember I bought it in Boston.

Oh really?

Yeah.

Wow.

So, okay.

Crazy detail. When did you start hooping?

Cause I know you played baseball as a kid, right? Yeah. I mean, I kind of always played. I mean, my mom and dad both played, brother plays overseas.

Both played in college, right?

Yeah, they played at Arkansas State. That's where they met.

Where'd your brother play in college?

He played at Central Missouri, Division II school. Just, he was just small. He was a two guard. That was too small to play He could have played at a small division one, but you know, you see, you know a white kid that's not very athletic you can shoot shit out of it, but Yeah, I kind of always played but but baseball was the the one that everybody wanted me to play My dad told me my I think it was going into my seventh grade year. He said I needed to pick baseball or basketball

To try to get my school paid for. Cause that's, at that point, that's all I was thinking about. And I'm probably, you know, five foot, you know, 95 pounds.

And-

What position did you play in baseball?

Shortstop. Yeah, I played a lot of short and then I pitched a little, which I didn't like pitching, but yeah, we had a summer basketball camp and I moved up two grades to play with my brother. And we was beating teams by 30. And I was like, oh, this is much faster.

Baseball is kind of slow. So I went back to my dad and I was like,

I want to play basketball.

And he was like, you're fucking stupid. I was like, damn. But he was like, obviously you got my support.

Were you killing it in baseball?

I was, I was solid. Yeah. You was probably trending higher in baseball than he was. He thought I was a better baseball player. He also saw the metrics. Skinny white boy. I was small. I mean, I didn't grow until my like junior year of high school. So at the time I understand why, but you know, he told me that my best friend's dad, which was our baseball coach. I remember we were driving home, he was taking me home and I told him I was quitting baseball and he told me that basketball wasn't gonna work out. And I was like, well, we'll see.

I got some similar stories in my background about that. My dad's from the UK, played semi-pro soccer. But he was great about it when I was like, I'm not gonna play soccer anymore. I play basketball. He like bit his tongue. He was like, do what you wanna do, that's great. Yeah, he's like, do what you wanna do, that's great.

But you could tell inside he was, he was hot.

That hurts. That hurts.

But I wanna hear more about your brother. Cause I heard, I see something in you. Tell me a little bit about that.

How many years older?

Two.

Two years older.

Which I was supposed to be three grades younger. Because I mean, I graduated high school at 17. My mom started me early so I could play two years with him. So I moved up my freshman year and then played with him again my 10th grade year. But yeah, he fell in love with basketball when he was probably in seventh grade. He quit everything.

He was a gym rat. He'd go to the gym every night. Like we're a town of a thousand people. He's probably 12, 13 years old driving to the gym, which probably isn't legal, but yeah.

So probably isn't legal.

I don't think so, but that's another story. You could do that in Arkansas.

But yeah, no, he fell in love with it. And I was kind of still in the fringe of baseball. Like I still love baseball and probably going into my like eighth grade year, he, I think he'd seen that, you know, I had ability and I remember there was nights that he'd be going to the gym

you know, seven, eight o'clock at night and he'd be like, you want to go? And I was like, eh, not really. And he'd be like, you're coming anyway. Like I had no choice. He dragged me out of the house.

We'd go shoot for, you know, a couple hours and then he had just beat me really bad one-on-one. I think that it was the confidence builder for him, uh, just wearing me out all the time, but yeah, he, he's probably the biggest basketball influence in my life. Um, you know, he, he instilled work ethic. Um, he would always sit me down and be like, yo, like you're from Newark, Arkansas, the town of a thousand people. You're going to have to do more than everybody else.

Like it's not going to be easy. Like that even it went to college. I remember going into maybe my senior year or junior year at Oklahoma. He pulled me to the side. We were working out. And he was like, what do you want to do with this?

Like, do you want to just play overseas? He was like, you go play overseas right now. He was like, you don't have to get any better. He was like, you can go make some good money, play overseas. And he was like, there's nothing wrong with that. But if you want to be an NBA player, you got to do more. And so I did more.

It was crazy. I have similar people in my life that's had the same,

similar conversations with me about it. Is he still open? He's 29 now? Yeah, he's 29. He plays in Germany. Yeah, he's doing well. He started in Spain, I think probably eight years ago now, making nothing, grinding his way to the top division in Germany and just, you know, he loves it. So, you know, I don't know how many more years he'll play, but yeah, he's a basketball fanatic.

Does he still like mentor you? Like, he still like watch your games and say like, hey.

He watches every game and I'm probably not the easiest to talk to sometimes, but if I'm going through a rough shooting stretch, which he can shoot the ball better than, you know, 99% of the people I've ever met. Uh, so he does know, and he probably knows me better than I know myself.

So, uh, he'll text me and be like, move it over the ride a little bit or shoot a little high, just little things like that.

Uh, yeah.

So I remember I was talking to one of our assistant coaches last year and I was going, I think I was like two for my last 27 from three going through it. And I was like, Oh, before the game I was talking to Bo. I was like, don't worry tonight. We're good. My brother fixed me.

And he was like, what? And I was like, yeah, he to keep texting. That's amazing. I mean, he's got a place to land after that.

Yeah, for sure.

He's smart.

That's cool.

He's smart.

Was it that conversation with your brother when you were in college about the MSI, when you were like, okay, I can play in the league. Like, when did you say like, I'm an NBA player, I'm going for this? When you were a kid, I don't know. I mean, I always had like delusional confidence. Sure. And the weirdest story was,

is like I was like, like I said, from a town of a thousand people, there's nothing to do. So you hunt, you fish, you do that. Like you do all the country stuff. And I remember my, I don't remember this,

but my mom's best friend at the time took me hunting one day and we were sitting there talking and she was like, what do you want to do? Like, I'm probably nine years old. And she was like, what do you want to do when you get older? And I was like, oh, I want to play in the NBA. And she was like, you mean the MLB?

And I was like, no, I want to play in the NBA. And she was like, it was the craziest thing You didn't really like actually play. But it really come to reality. I was at Oklahoma and Lonn Kruger followed me out of practice one day and told me he was like, I think you could be a first round pick. And you know, he's been around basketball for forever.

He's coached Buddy, Trey, Blake. I don't know if he didn't coach Blake, but you know, seeing all this basketball that-

Was he at Florida too?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so he's seen everything. And once he said that, I was like, oh, like this is, I got a chance.

And where do you think that, like that delusional confidence come from?

Where did it come from?

Yeah, I'd like to hear more about that.

And also like, how did it then manifest like?

Yeah. I really don't know because it wasn't. We've seen a lot of delusional people that it actually didn't go the way they thought it should go.

Yeah, but there's like a delusional confidence, but also like, I still like maintain like real life.

Like I don't go outside that.

Attached to reality.

Yeah, yeah, I still have some reality.

I gotta work.

Exactly. I don't know though, because like growing up, like I said it didn't matter what it was. Like I never beat my brother in anything. He, he would beat me as bad as he possibly could one-on-one. Then we'd go home, we'd play cards,

we'd play video games, like we'd play. And my parents were the same way. They didn't let me win anything. It was no like poor Austin, let him win one. I never won anything. So I learned to hate losing more than I love to win. So it was like, do whatever you can to- To get a dub.

Yeah, to get a dub. Because I remember the first time I beat him in one-on-one, I took off running, I ran in the house. When was this? I was probably like 12 or so. And he let me shoot wide open shots.

He was like, you can't make enough shots to beat me. And I got hot and I ran in the house. He was so pissed. I was screaming. My mom was like, what's going on? But yeah, I really don't know where it came from. It just, it's just there.

Yeah, I think I, like I, you know, I was so far from the NBA. It wasn't even funny, right? But I feel like I always felt like I'm willing to do the work. If I do it for a year or three years, five years, seven years, where could I be? So that was always my belief system. Was there a part of that for you too?

Or were you just like, I just love to play, I want to keep playing?

It started off that I just loved to play and I was just going to see how far I'd go, I didn't think I'd play Division I basketball. Like I thought I would end up going Division II, playing with my brother.

Why?

I didn't have all, like I was,

I don't. What do you think it was about your game or your environment experience that was like, cause you ended up obviously getting him, Yeah. Take on offers.

What was the main thing. And then you look at, I mean, you look, you look at me now and you're still like, you can't play basketball. But you looked at me then I was 6'5", probably 165, super skinny. Um, and that was a lot of the, the feedback we got from coaches was he's not big enough. He's not strong enough.

He's not big enough, he's not strong enough, he's not athletic enough, but they make weights for a reason. So I don't know.

That's good.

Yeah, I mean, it's, everyone's journey is different, right? It's crazy how everyone has a completely different journey, how disparate they can be. But like, what was, did you think was, cause you got to college, I watched your clips in college and I'm like, that's a pro,

why do you think you weren't a first round pick? Like do you think in your heart at that time?

You're like, I, well.

You know why.

I'm not allowed to say it.

I can't, I know why you thought that shit is.

And I wasn't trying to put you on the side.

Because they look at him, they judge a book by its cover situation. Like, I can, I saw the talent.

Yeah.

That's not, that guy that I'm seeing is not a, he's not an undrafted. There's no way that guy can be undrafted. Like, but it's, come on, man.

Yeah.

Well, I just, I think the draft too is you got your top 15 players or whatever the lottery is. And then after that, you just, I felt like teams just try to hit home runs. And then my age was, I was 22, I think, coming out. So they're like, oh.

Especially in your era, analytics definitely.

Exactly. So it's like, go young, go athletic. And I wasn't either of that, but I could help somebody win.

Obviously.

Yes, yes, indeed.

For sure.

And when you, was there like a, like for me when I was trying to like get there, I was thinking like, maybe I'm not fast enough. That was for you?

Was that it?

Fast or strength or what?

Everything. Everything. There was many times I was like, oh, I gotta get stronger, I gotta get faster, gotta get more athletic. But I realized real quick that if you can think the game, you can kind of negate some of that.

Obviously I wish I had that.

Do you remember all 58 guys that was drafted?

No, I don't give a damn.

In your draft? I don't give a damn.

You don't give a damn?

Nope, I don't do nothing.

That's what makes you who you are, I swear.

Yeah, too busy.

I definitely would've, I would remember every last one of them. Try to turn their ass up I knew some of them. Never heard of them. They're definitely not around anymore. What year is this for you now?

Five.

Yeah, five. They're definitely not around anymore. There's no way. Those guys in the first round from probably five years ago, that's probably not.

For sure. I want to look at that. What was that, the 21 draft?

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When was it where you were like, I know you had, like, a little mini camp in Vegas, and obviously you got signed to a contract early. When was it you were like, oh, I belong? And did you think before you got the contract, you're like, oh, I belong? And did you think before you got the contract, you're like, oh, I belong?

Or was it like more like in the season? No, I mean, the Vegas thing was the first step was like, but then again, like it is the middle of the summer. It was playing three on three, so it's different. But then opening night, we played Golden State, got my, literally my first ever,

like any level, any, anything DNP didn't play.

First time.

First time ever.

And I was like, what the hell? Like, I didn't,

I didn't know this was possible.

So you went in the game like, I'm going to play.

I thought that I should have, but.

From camp, preseason.

Yeah, but like like I understood why. But then game two, we played Phoenix and we were getting beat by like 30 going into the fourth and Frank was like, oh, go ahead. And out the gate, we made a run. And after that, it was kind of just-

Are you without rotation?

Yeah.

Yeah. So I mean, there was a little, you know, stint towards the end of the year where I wasn't playing Great got a couple more DMPs, but basically from there on out was in you know rotation

Consistently especially like you don't get those DMPs late But you've already shown over the course of the year, and you know like more work more time. You're like yeah, I'm doing this

yeah, and I remember I think it was We got eliminated from the playing game and we were in Phoenix. We played Phoenix the night before and I think we stayed and we were about to go somewhere. And somehow Summer League got brought up

and he was, someone said something to him or asked him something about Summer League, if I should play Summer League. And he was like, no, just get in the gym all summer and just grind. And I was like, oh, perfect.

I don't have to play bad basketball and just focus on myself.

Yeah, there's a lot of bad basketball in the summer. I mean, it's cool, I get it.

Yeah, it's a necessary thing, but it's not for everybody.

But it was not for him. No, not the way he was trending. It makes no sense to go out there and waste those few weeks where you could be using those for not locking in on what he needs to be locking in on.

Actually working.

Yeah.

What did you see in him early where you were like, I know the wig all and stuff, but when that first year, were you like, I see this?

Yeah. I mean, it didn't take long for me. It does not take long for me when it comes to talent, for me to recognize talent, but also I like IQ. That's the one thing that I gravitate towards faster than anything. Everyone's talented in the NBA.

Everyone has talent. Don't matter if you're the 15th guy, two-way guy, rookie, 15th year guy, it doesn't matter. Everyone has talent. We all here for a reason. But what my basketball mechanism and hard drive attached to is guys

that know how to play the game. And it's a reason why, like he said, you know, came into the league or whatever, it was 6'5", 180, whatever the case may case may be, bulked up a little bit now, but it's the reason why he's not the fastest, not the most athletic, you know, but he's averaging 25 a game.

Yeah. And playing at a high level. And at any given night, he's number one on the opposing team's depth chart of this is what we gotta take away. Once you start getting at that level, once you start being on opposing teams, depth chart of like, we got, we got, you got Luka, AR, me, you know, this is, we got to take this away.

If we can't give him no air space, we can't give him no, like, I could see the talent there, but also saw the knowledge of the game and the willingness to work. And that's, I'm, if you working, bro, if you working.

IQ and work and talent, skill.

I can't, how can I not love you? How can I not love you? That's just my makeup.

Tell me about the playmaking. Were you, in high school, were you a playmaker as well or were you more of a scorer?

No, playing alongside my brother my freshman year and sophomore year, he took the majority of shots.

So my job was to-

You had to get him the ball.

Yeah, my job, we-

Get him the ball, get out the way.

That year we actually played like an actual white team. We ran set after set. We would get them threes after threes after threes, after threes. An actual white team? Yeah. And then he left and we just had to, we just started running. We was like, we're going to press and run. But yeah, no, it was,

I always wanted to be a point guard.

Did you ever play point? Like in any of those stages,

like your freshman year, were you point for your brother?

Yeah.

I was basically point guard from when I started playing basketball till I went to college. And then, you know, going to college, you know, you run into guys that are three or four years older and you're more physically gifted and better players at the time. And I never had a problem with buying into a role to help the team be successful. Like my freshman year, I think I scored four points a game.

I might have played 11 minutes a game. Then it just kind of trended forward after that. Sophomore year, got more time, was able to be myself a little more, but it was still all about what I could do to help us win. I felt like we had a really good team my sophomore year at Wichita State. We were, I think, preseason, third in the country.

Yeah, we had a really, really good team, but that all came crumbling down. We got beat first round of the tournament. But yeah, it was from then on out, like I understood that I'm going to run into guys that are better than me. Like it's no different than in the NBA. Like there's going to be times on a night basis

where him and Luke has got it going. Like what can I do to, you know, plug and play and help our team win? I think that's the beautiful thing about basketball is you don't have to go out and score 30 to affect a game. You can do a lot of things.

When you were a freshman averaging four a game, were you still like, I'm the best dude out here?

Like, did you-

Oh no, I frowned everybody in practice.

You knew it. Yeah. So it was like a matter of fitting

into what the coach was foot and not play. Like that was- That's interesting. Yeah, that was-

Because a lot of guys, if they're frying everyone in practice and they're getting put in a box.

It wasn't easy.

No, I know.

But like, it's, that's a strength. Yeah. To say like, I can play this game. Like I'll, you know, you want to put me in the box, but I also am not gonna lose confidence. I'm gonna survive this battle. I'll fight another day. Like there's a resilience to that that's impressive.

Yeah, cause I think like, it's interesting to hear you, you know, you go through those times because you watch you play now and you see like, you know, the breadth of skills you have. It's almost like, man, what were we waiting for?

Like, I also wanna know, like, who, like, obviously you had your older brother, you know, along the ride, but like, who inspired your game?

Like, who inspired your game?

Who was your favorite player?

My favorite player ever was Kobe, as you know. It was, there was not really any-

Nobody that you were like, I wanna play like-

Not really, like I always- So where did you get that shit from? I always felt like I was different, like I played differently than everybody else growing up.

In your town?

Yeah, like I was, cause like people would be like, it's crazy. Like you're, you're, you're psycho. Like the way you play basketball is not normal.

Oh, okay.

And so like, I just, it was just for the freedom.

Like what things were you doing that people are like, what are you doing?

I remember some, one of my brother's best friends, who was two years older than me, and he went to a different school, probably 45 minutes away, and we would play them. And he was a really, really good high school player. And I was in eighth grade at the time, I was about to be a ninth grader, and he was like, we were playing him the next year,

and he was like, you have no chance. Like, I'm gonna take it from you every time. And I will say still to this day, it looks, sometimes it don't look the best, but like I have full confidence that I'm not gonna lose a ball.

Like, especially, you know, dribble or whatever. Like, I feel like, like I said, it might not look normal.

So he thought you were doing too much with the ball.

Yeah, a lot of people did growing up. Like even my parents would be like, you need to calm down a little bit. But I'm just like, this is, it feels natural.

It feels natural.

Yeah, so then I got out of my town and I seen other people really play.

I was like, oh, this isn't actually that crazy. Right, right. What excited me about playing basketball was like being creative, being expressive, trying shit. Like trying to beat your guy, like try to get there. Find a solution when you get there. Like all that stuff, like that, it was never exciting to me.

Though I wanted to learn the fundamentals, I wanted to be fundamentally simple. It was never exciting to me to like, come off this pin down and know when to fade and when to curl.

Like that, yeah, okay, I got that.

You know what I mean? Like I got that, but when can I break my man down and get in the guts and make a play? Like that was what made me want to play basketball every single day.

Right? You felt the same. Me and my brother agree on a lot of things. And he would, in high school, he would always, he would ask me, he'd be like, do you ever know what you're gonna do? And I was like, no, like, I'm not dribbling down the court thinking like, I mean, obviously, reading defense, whatever, but like, if I see somebody in front of me,

it's not like I'm gonna go and be like, oh, I'm figure something out after that. Like there's no...

It's all reaction.

Improvise. Nothing's predetermined. Like nothing's predetermined. And we talked about it a couple of years ago. Like those are the, I feel like the hardest people to guard.

Cause like you literally, you're not watching scouts and it's like, oh, he does this. He goes left, he goes right, he's going to cross back, he's going to go between. There's literally, there's no telling what I mean.

Yeah, one of the things I think, yeah, but I mean, that's, man, I mean, that's where offenses are going. Like we're not running sets, we're just trying to play out a ghost game and multiple actions, play fast quick decisions. So it's like, you know, all those advantages. I mean, literally half the league's opening the funnel so we can just go and sit in the transition. So, because it's harder to guard than if we run Fenerbahce's greatest hits. You're just gonna switch all that

and you're back to an ISO. So it's interesting that it took us a while to like, you know what I mean? Come around to that part being like, that's the heart of the game is can you beat your man, create an advantage? Yep. Which is, you know, that's fun to watch. I think one of the things that you are either the best

in the league at or use the best as a behind the back dribble.

Yeah, I've heard, some people's giving me credit on that.

Yeah, his rap game is crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The step rap, you just, you just fuck somebody is that you know, this is your kid Yeah, always yeah, because I think you use it to attack you also use it to reset Yeah, so you get stuck they catch your first move Sometimes it's a rap to win to get downhill size is a wrap to reset Yeah, then you can hang when you hang dribble they gotta close, and you do your thing again. And so, I don't know that anyone,

do you think anyone in the league used it as well?

Well, this is definitely not a conversation for me. You two, you two, when they come.

He didn't need to.

Yeah, right.

They use the behind the back dribble like that.

I mean, I don't off the top of my head. I think Luka actually used it really well, but more to get to his step back.

Yeah, get to his step back.

A lot of people do it when they have two feet set. You do it in the middle of the stride. I can have one foot in front. And I remember-

It gives me Jamal Crawford vibes. Jamal used to kind of do that as well, without having feet set, without, he could just...

Improvise and go behind the back.

But no deceleration too, he can still accelerate. That's what makes it so unique. So he can come down full speed,

100%

rap and still be accelerating towards the basket.

That to me is, that's the way it's explained, is that you can use it to go, you can use it to hang, you can use it to retreat. Like you use it anyway and like think that's the thing. Some people, like you said, do it when their feet are planted you could also do it on the move, both ways.

It's fun to watch. Cause it's fun to watch because it is improvisational. You're never like, I'm going to go behind the back. Right? It's like, you're good at a jail.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I mean, I feel, I remember Phil Handy, my, it was either my first or second year. He, we, you know, we worked on a lot of this stuff, obviously, but he was, he kept telling me, he was like, you're one of the few people in the NBA that can actually change directions on one foot. Like you can have one foot out in front of the other

and either behind the back or cross or any. And he told me that's what he worked with Kyrie a lot with because he obviously, he can do everything. But just the ability to change direction with not a perfect, you know, base.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's, it's fun. It's fun to watch. Like it's like, you mentioned Kai, but like guys that are able to do things slightly different all the time, the improvisation. Then you add the play-making.

I think one of the things about your game that is beautiful to me is your finishing rate is really high. So you're getting the gas, but you finish at a high level. Not to be rude.

It's not because you're challenging people at the rim, but you have a high foul rate. You can play in the middle. You have a midi game, flow game, layup game, playmaking game. So I'll relate this to me. I think why I was efficient is because I could pass

and score in a different thing. So I could play off each other. So I didn't have to go. It wasn't all or nothing when you get in the gaps. I could be like, oh, I can beat in the backboard, I got my layup. I got to take the run, I got the rim. I can spray it out. I can play, I can draw, sell score and draw.

So that allows you to be a high efficiency finisher because if not, every time I got in, I got to challenge dudes at the rim.

Yeah, and then on top of that, like you said, the craftiness to be able to get fouled, like shot fake, step throughs, all that. Like, I would feel like, I mean, it's kind of like guarding Luka in a sense of you have to be physical with him because he's, you know, obviously really strong, but he has every pass, he's shot fake and you don't want to foul him. So at the end of the day, like trying to guard all three of those things is tough.

I think, I mean, obviously you did this in a million ways, but I think it's a great lesson for young players to understand, like, you don't have to be like, I'm an elite finisher. You have to be able to like, I have options. I can play cat and mouse.

I hit the pocket pass, and then later, they don't want to give up the pocket pass. You attack It might be a floater might be a let might be a lab It might be a dribble under you know You might the guy early comes from the corner get playing cat and mouse getting guys to know like oh, yeah There's three or four options. So you make the decision

Yeah for me in a way and he that person's gonna be the one, the defenders are gonna be the one to tell you what to do, really.

Like it's not-

You just think attack.

Exactly.

They'll tell you.

If he goes there, then you got to skip. If the lob's open, then that is. And then if he don't want the lob, you just lay up, float it, whatever. So that's really kind of how I see it, You don't want to foul me. And then I'm going to let the defensive, whatever, their schemes help me figure out what I want to do.

The fouling is the icing on the cake, your high foul rate. Because I didn't get to the line as much as I would have liked to have. You get to the line at a high, I mean, I think for at least the first half of the year,

you were top four or five in the league. That was for a year top four or five in the league. That was for a while. And you might be- It's went down. Well, your team got healthy.

Bro, I'm getting out of here.

Shit, I wish I could get some fast food.

Your team got healthy, honestly.

I wish I could get some fast food.

Yeah, no, for sure.

It'd be nice. It'd be nice to get some free food. It would be nice. lay up in the first quarter last night. Bro, he literally punched me in the stomach.

It's crazy.

The gut punch?

No, no, no.

Bro, it was like open hand.

Yeah.

No, I think, I mean, I think that's an art of itself. It is. And it's not, obviously everybody's gonna be like, oh, you're foul baiting, foul bait. Like, I try to use all of that in the sense of like, to get me open. Like I'm not, I don't want to just go,

I'm not like, I just want to get fouled at 17 feet and throw a hook shot at the road. Like I'll, because if I go to a low pickup and you have your hands down there, you're going to be scared to foul me. So you're going to back off.

And if you don't, you're going to foul me. So it's more to get to where I want to go than it is anything.

Also, it's like, you want to put yourself at a disadvantage. So I go low pickup, his hands are going to try to avoid it.

Now I'm off balance.

Like, no, you have to rip through.

And I always say this about, Luca does a great job of this, me call. He tells the ref right away he's not doing that by his play. He probably says a lot more than that.

He might vocalize it a little bit.

He started speaking Serbian last night. I was like, I don't know what you're talking about.

He did.

It was after he got his first tech.

But there's an art to that. I think of an art to that. I think like, of course, everyone's gonna try to get a call.

Yeah.

Somebody works, we're all trying to figure this shit out.

I'd be begging him to do it. Bro, it's not working. It's over.

It don't work. It's over, you're trying to teach old dogs new tricks. It's over for me. I don't get calls no more. They look at it, they just, the same thing. Too strong. We didn't see it. Or it was-

Margin.

It was margin.

That's my favorite word in basketball right now.

We have a, I don't know when this is gonna come out, versus the refereeing episode.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

We talked a lot about like, and it's not to kill the refs. For sure. We can do that. But it's more about like the game's changing to where like you can blast a guy in the chest on offense and it's no call anymore. You can foul the hell out of someone outside the three point line, no call.

Then they get inside, it's ticky tack.

It's just a little bit of inconsistency.

It's just the inconsistency. Like they're picking shoes. Well, it feels like they don't know yet. Where are we going? They don't know. Like the extended arm on the drive is so inconsistent depending on who you are. Like, you know, I was watching, obviously when we played against Boston recently,

you know, Jaylen Brown, about three times did it to our players. Right in the open and no call. And then we're down fucking 18 and a fourth. And he does it, they call off as a foul. You know, we got a couple other guys in our league who consistently does it.

And I was watching, I mean I rarely watch the games now these days, but I was watching Denver and Minnesota. And Edwards drove, kind of gave the arm, and on the way back, he got his arm kind of pulled by Jamal Murray. They called off as a foul, you know? And then Minnesota reviewed it,

and it was still off as a foul. So it's like, where are we at?

It's like when they go to the replay, you're not sure what they're gonna call.

I don't believe it's ever getting, whatever the refs say it was, I think that's what it's gonna be. I don't like the fact, this is another story. I don't like the fact that we can allow someone all the way in like fucking Secaucus or somewhere Fucking Sakakis is somewhere. Determine what the call should be. So right here.

Yeah.

This is live.

I've seen many of clips.

I think I've seen it. When we're sitting on the bench and we're like, oh, this will be over. For sure. And then they're like, nope.

No, it's a guy in there eating a fucking ham sandwich.

Determine what the call should be.

Yeah. I'm the old guy now, man. Here's the thing. Why bother watching it back when we watch it back and we don't know? Like, let's just keep it moving.

I don't get it.

I'm a big soccer fan. That was my first sport. And there's our review, the review in soccer is VAR, V-A-R. Honestly, I think they fuck it up on VAR more than they do. And like, they watch it back. We spend four or five minutes and you're like, I don't know.

I don't know how they came to that conclusion.

They brought a camera out on my ass last year in the post season. I haven't seen since.

It was this, it was up there.

That was great.

That was great.

I was like, where's this?

I've never seen that camera since. I've never seen it. I didn't see it before or after. It came from the government.

For sure. Oh my goodness. I was like, I've watched a billion games before and since I've never seen that camera in my life.

No, it was dumb.

But I mean, it is what it is. I think one of the things that I admire about AR's game too that goes underappreciated too is that

his ability to create contact in the paint.

Versus smalls, versus longer wings, and versus bigs. His ability without having to use that arm, using bump, that shoulder.

Beat them to the point of contact, take their legs out or make them hit you. Yeah

Yeah, very clever and it sets up it sets up his his footwork his ability to Bump here get you off balance and now he has the ability to use all the pivot Sure, whatever pump fake cuz now you're trying to you're off balance So now you're trying to close the space, so now he can step through all those. You know, for a guy that you look at,

you don't think as strong, and think that can create contact, you realize it once he hits you with that damn shoulder, and you're sliding back four feet.

Now that's an art.

That's an art.

That's an art, because you use that because I mean, by NBA standards, you're not big and strong or fast explosive, but you're big enough, strong enough, fast enough, and you know, here's my advantage, if I hit him before he hits me, I'm winning.

It's all timing too. It's like, yeah, there's, it's almost impossible to guard somebody if you're sliding and your left foot's in the air. If I bump you and your left foot's in the air, like, it's almost impossible, unless you're just strong, like real strong, it's almost impossible to stay on balance. And I think, I mean, I think that it helped me always being smaller than everybody and not as strong

because I had to figure out how to use my body. And then when I finally did get some strength, I could be just made it better.

Did you have a high foul rate in college too?

I got fouled a lot in college.

No, I still probably shot, I probably shot six, five free throws a game. Yeah, in college. For sure in college, yeah.

That's right, for like 30. Yeah, in college. For sure, in college, yeah. That's right, for like 30.

Yeah, for sure.

Right?

For sure.

You also, I feel like you love clutch moments. Yeah. Like I feel like you, you can tell certain people are like, I live for this. Yeah, were you like that as a eighth, ninth, 10th grader?

Yeah, I mean, I always wanted to be, if we, I mean, if we win, like, cool. If we lose, like, I don't want anybody to think that it was their fault. Like, I missed, or whatever the case may be. Yeah, I mean, I remember early this year in Minnesota.

Tough.

We, we really-

Yeah, the floater?

Yeah, we really dominated that whole second half.

But you were playing.

Him and Luke were out. And we dominated the whole second half. We played really well in the third quarter. And then, I mean, think about it. We had a closing lineup that had literally never played minutes together. So they went zone.

Things started getting tough. And obviously they take the lead by one, Julius Schrader makes a layup. And I remember going to the bench and I'm sitting on the bench, JJ's drawing up whatever. And we walk out and there's still probably like 20 seconds

on the time or whatever. And I just remember walking to half court and I was like, man, we would look like some idiots if we lost this game. And then I just was like, ah, we'll win. And then that happened. And it was just like, there's still belief in every moment.

Just, you know, think being able to think positive when chaos is going on is something that I've been really good at throughout my whole career, Even when I was younger, everybody just spazzes out when things get, you know, things get to move and you get to lose and it gets tough, but just being able to, you know, keep, keep a level head at the moments.

So do you feel like in, in, um, high tension, it's almost like you slow down?

For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I just like, I've got people watch too. You just look around, everybody's going nuts.

Yeah.

You know, even your staff might be going crazy.

Yeah.

Sorry, JJ. But no, I mean, yeah, I think, I think it.

Just give me a look.

Yeah, just, I mean, anything like, it don't even have to be for me, but I feel like in any situation, if you throw the ball to me, I make something work.

Incredible skill, right?

To be calm in those moments.

No, that's not, that's not even, I don't even know if that's something that you can, I guess it is. I think some people are kind of like born with that attitude. It's something that you can grow into. But if it's something that you are,

like don't ever want to have, you can't then like hit the switch and be like, yeah, I wanna be that guy. No, it's either like you wanna be put in that position, but you just haven't given that opportunity, they haven't given you that opportunity yet,

or it's already in you, for sure. To be able to just like, like you said, when shit is just haywire, you could just like, man, if I can get this opportunity, I'm gonna, it don't matter, make, miss, don't matter. I'm gonna be ready for the next opportunity as well.

It's a great way to frame it.

I remember the on games, if I could would have bet, I would have bet everything in my life. This is not the year. I'm not touching the ball and I'm standing in the corner and I forgot who it was on their bench was like, you don't want it. And I was like, I'm not going to touch the ball. But if I do is going in right before it happened. And I still to this day, I'm like, Rush, why did you pass me the ball? But yeah, I mean, just moments like that,

like you just got to accept it.

Yeah.

Make or miss.

No, I mean, you both make great points because I think like you, it just seems innate in you that you calm down in those moments. And it's like, you're at your best in those moments. I think for me, it took me a while to go through those times when I failed,

but accepted it. It's like, I gotta learn to do this. Until where then it became almost like, I always say this, maybe a weird metaphor, but almost like a drug. Like you want the end of the game,

you want the tension, you want the game on the line. You want the tension. You want the, like the game on the line. It's like, you're never more like alive. Your vibrations are never more.

I just always, like early on in my career, I always hated the feeling of letting my teammates down. If I didn't come.

So you want it again, give it to me.

Yeah, like I was like, if I missed or whatever, if I turned the ball over, if I didn't make the right play, either shot or pass or whatever, I was like, fuck, I just let these guys down. They trusted me to make it happen and I didn't make it happen. Like early on in my career, that really got to me. And then I just got to a point where it was like,

well, they're putting you in this position because they trust you for a reason.

So then I was like, it doesn't make miss pass. If I pass it, if I shoot it, it doesn't. You also learn that at the end of the day, like a teammate, they care, but like, we're gonna live with him taking the last shot. We're gonna live with Louis, like make or miss. It doesn't, it don't matter.

Like, it's fine.

Yeah, I always say like, you die a thousand deaths, right? Like you're going to die, you're going to miss. So accept that. You're going to die a lot, yeah. Right?

Go, like you.

Nobody's going to die.

I also tell young players all the time, like, go for it. Yeah. Go for it. Like you're wasting your time. If you're, if you're scared, you're not going to get better. Go for the win. As a little kid, my dad would take me to my grandparents' home in North London, where he grew up.

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Give the fans like your perspective on just things you're able to do with the ball.

Oh, here we go.

So we talked about this one. This is that game, you guys go in the football formation. A little bit of a misdirection to get in football and then you kind of run a play that you could just run into the half court.

Yeah, I mean, the main thing was is to get, you had to catch and get Rudy lifted.

Lifted off of the break.

I was surprised that they didn't just red it. But, you know, once you get him, you know, he's obviously one of the best defenders in the league, but once you get him moving, laterally, he's not as quick. If he's standing in front of you and you're trying to finish around him in the paint, it's almost impossible. But if you get him, I think DA did a really good job here of actually like sprinting into the screen and creating that separation between him and Rudy.

And then getting a little piece of McDaniels too, just so you had that left and right.

Exactly.

I always say, the way I explain this too, is like when McDaniels can't touch you here, now Rudy's isolated. He's fully, he can't drop with the roller. He's like, I got to contain. And so Rudy goes from being the best defender on the court to one that's in a tough situation. Cause you can get downhill left, right. And at seven, two, it's hard for him to speed. So you take advantage here.

You split, but it's interesting, right? Like he's so fearful of your, you know, getting past him that he's opened his hips. So you split, which now his hips have to change back, the opposite, which makes it even harder for him. So now he's recovering.

So it's interesting to me, Dante knows this. He's like, now Rudy's in a tough spot here. And so he comes, and so, but you read that.

About right there, I was like, Auburn, run him over. I thought I was gonna run him over.

He went right leg, right floater, which is.

I had to stop on it.

You had to put a stop on a dime.

This is the thing though, you got a defensive player of the year, seven, two, long arms, but you got his momentum going.

Yeah.

And he can't stop with you. Yeah, and then you go wrong leg floater and Dante's an inch and a half. Yeah, two inches too late Yeah That's so tough. And that's nothing but draws. Yeah, that one felt good when it left me. Yeah your first kid

That's the first thing That game winner right there. Cause your daddy's a bop boy. Let's see what we got here.

Our little double drag with LeBron and Aiden. And so for me, like this is just a clip that shows again, we talked about it earlier. You, you, they catch the move.

Yep.

He's got you in between his feet. You go behind the back, look for the crack. It's closed.

I thought DA was going to roll him down, basically a gore top.

Yeah, like a gore top screen.

And then I was going to run. Who is that?

He was going to race Wendell.

Yeah, I was going to run Wendell right into both of them.

Yep.

But he-

He'd go around. But instead, basically you got three defenders, right? Yep. And, but then again, you used your behind the back to reset and now you look at the two defenders.

And there's, I mean, there's no way, they slip up. Yeah, there's no way Paulo can get on the bottom side of DA. So if he just stops and holds.

Yeah. And so you make a great feed into space here where only DA can get it. But what I love about this is I think basketball is about rim pressure. And so you don't say, hey, he's got me squared. You say, how can I get him on his heels?

And you go behind the back off the one leg, like we talked about, split the gap, it gets closed, and that essentially is the rim pressure that draws two, and that allows DA to slide behind. And there's this whole pocket of space behind them where you go back behind the back because you got them in jail,

and then you can lead your partner into a ton of space. So for me, that's a brilliant play because your mind was rim pressure. And then that set, you sold basket. And that created a vacuum in underneath there where you drew too.

So maybe I'm using too many words, but that's-

No, it's perfect.

That's how I see the game and big time, big time pass, but created by your pressure. All right, so a little LeBron swing swing. So you realize, you know, like any primary score type player like I'm no one's on me and you could shoot. But again, I love that you're thinking rim pressure here.

So he's got a close on you. And so you go, stick with me now. Make him guard. Okay, he does a good job. Good close. Pull it back out.

Okay, it doesn't always work. It doesn't always work. So now you get back. So then there's this gap you created by going behind the back. He has to close again in a sense. And as he closes, you hang, cross, cross, behind the back.

That's the signature right there.

Hang, cross behind the back, scoop under.

And then.

That's sick. I'm surprised AD didn't get that one. He didn't even go for it. I don't think he thought I was gonna shoot it.

Right?

And it is.

It's just like the improvisation, the like, belief in yourself that a lot of players have been like, I got caught. Yeah. Let me pick it up.

Yeah, no, I mean, like you said, just using that to basically get back to ground zero and then also create a little bit of space between me and him at the same time to re-attack.

Yeah, and then great agility. And then great agility to get underneath.

Eddie's supposed to smack that shit.

Yeah, he is.

That's for someone else's film session, not ours.

That's not ours, Eddie.

That's not ours.

That's for Phil Handy's film session.

He said, prove it, kid. So again, a little kind of late double drag. You look to play in the middle for a second, draw two, and just baiting them. You know, you came off the first one. You thought, see what I like about this

is the second screen, I don't know if this is double drag, if it was, it's tight. So you thought, why would I just come off the second, I'm letting them set up, you said attack here.

And then it created a screen angle even better by him attacking down. He basically set up the lob right now. The lob is happening right now because his defender has to close the gap because he can hang and shoot this if he don't close that gap. And now his defender's trying to get over it. It's over with now.

Yeah, I, one way I like this, I mean, that's, I don't need to re-explain it. You explained it great. But one thing I like to say is you manipulated him. Like one, you would have gone to the hoop here if you got him clean. But the help helped. And what you did though is you got your defender

between the screener's feet. And now he's stuck.

And now he's stuck.

And then you can also see he can't touch you here. And I always say when he can't touch you, guess who has to come guard you? The big. Then we got problems. And if the corner came, you got the corner.

You got corner pass.

So just a great job of manipulating here. And I love the way right here, you know you got lob, but you sold the Luka pass with the eyes. So that's nailed Rush to the spot. He's going to be late here because you look good. And so just that awareness to manipulate your guy, to manipulate the weak side.

It's beautiful basketball. And then this is probably my biggest highlight.

This is the one.

By the way, just letting you know, I have no ideas what clips that we're going to show on the episode until he actually breaks it up.

But I would say though, like there's some great facial expressions here.

Oh, for sure. First, let's start with Bron. But can we start, well, let's just start with why is Bron even in the game right now? It's over.

Yeah, I must have needed one rebound and one assist. It had to be. I think I got 19,000 one rebound, one assist.

So, Coach Braun is giving his John Wooden right here.

Yup, yup.

Telling you what to do.

He was like, okay, at first he was like, okay, yeah. And then whatever I said,

what the fuck are you talking about? Well, no, I know what he's thinking now. He just told us, he's going, why the fuck is he in the game talking about this shit right now? What are we doing? You sit your ass down, we got the job done.

For sure.

And you're still coaching.

That's funny. Still coaching.

That's one of the best clips.

Yeah, amazing clip. I remember he posted that after the game and my followers went from like 60,000 to 7 million.

I'm sorry, man.

I had, my phone died.

Your phone died, fast as hell, my fault.

We were in Philly, I was out at the Eber Ridge and I picked up my phone and I just set it back down. I was like, I don't know what's going on. God damn, my bad. That was cool. That's all. Appreciate you man. Hey, I appreciate you my dog. I got the two coolest white boys in the town

in the same week.

Yeah, you got white boy Wednesday.

Oh my God, what the fuck going on? I don't know man, my community may give up on me next if I get one more white boy.

We're gonna have to diversify him. We're gonna have to diversify him.

Yeah, yeah, I'm telling you. We're gonna have to do a Burnett next talking about Magic City. We'll slam the laptop on that.