The Gus Lamont Mystery | Exclusive interview with Grandmother Josie Murray

The desperate search for a missing four -year -old boy near Yunta.Little Gus Lamont was last seen playing in the front yard of his grandparents' property.

The person who has withdrawn their cooperation is now considered a suspect.

Are you hopeful Gus will be found?Do you have to say anything about the disappearance of your grandson?

I know that I've been accused of taking him from where he had an accident and died and taking him out and burying him, but to think that I could actually go out there and do something like that.

That's an emotional Josie Murray speaking for the first time.Good evening, I'm Michael Usher and welcome to Spotlight.Everyone has wanted to hear from Gus Lamont's grandmother since the four -year -old disappeared from the family's outback farm in September last year.Everyone, including South Australia Police, since they named the suspect.Josie is angry, frustrated and devastated.Seven News Adelaide crime reporter Hannah Ford joins Spotlight this week as we go inside the untold story of Gus Lamont.

Hannah, this is a story that has all of Australia intrigued.Obviously a child is missing, but what makes it more intriguing do you think?

I think the vastness of where this has happened.It is so remote.Does a child go missing and just vanish without a trace?a trace?Not a hat, not a T -shirt.There's no spot of blood.

There's no piece of hair.There is nothing.It's just like Gus has vanished into thin air.Can you tell me anything more about him, his personality?

He was fairly quiet.He would get upset occasionally, like all kids.That's normal.He loved being on the swing out the back.the side of the house there.He loved his push bike, pushing that around and just letting it roll down the hill with him seated on it.

Happy almost, perhaps not more than you'd expect, but he was happy most of the time.And again, you know, he was just a normal, happy four -year -old child.He loved sitting in the lounge, being read to or reading his own books.He used to have a pile of books there.He'd drag them all out on the floor and go through them and read whatever he could understand from them.I'm not sure what was more than the pictures, but yeah, he was a bookish kid, you'd almost call him as well.

He was quite happy to go and play on his own a lot of the time.You'd often hear him down in the shed, you know, he'd got a fixation on opening and closing the Hilux doors at one stage, and you'd hear this bang, bang, bang, bang.We just said, well, if that's what he wants to do, he can do it.He's not gonna hurt anything terribly much, and it doesn't matter.It's a work vehicle, so so what?

Josie and Gus, they were close.And she saw Gus as the child who could take over the property they loved so much and keep it in the family.You know, Gus was the apple of their eyes.

And that bond is certainly backed up by family friend Bill, who you've sat down and spoken with as well.

That's right.How would you describe Josie?You've known her for 60 years?

I guess you'd have to say A bit quiet, a bit reserved, pretty athletic, pretty studious.You'd have to work very hard to find someone that would say anything against her.

What would you describe Oak Park Station?

It's open, remote, distant, lonely, beautiful.It's a big place, very hard to get your head around the size of it.

There's a town before it called Yunta.which is about 300 kilometres, 400 kilometres from Adelaide.

It's in the middle of nowhere.I call it nowhere land.We have a post office, one hotel, two petrol stations.We had a flood last month and the road traffic and the road trains were all stuck here for a whole week.We only have Telstra here.Hi, Telstra.

Without that, wesort of buggered.

And then from that town, it's another 40 minutes to Oak Park Station.There are six gates that you have to open and close to get through.You say middle of nowhere, but it really is.You can't see anything, and you could hear a pin drop.That's how it feels out there.

Who are the members of Gus's family?

Josie Murray is the grandparent of Gus.Jess is her daughter, Shannon Murray.She is the former partner of Josie Murray and the other grandparent to little Gus.And there is also another child in this that some people might not realise, but there is there's a baby, baby Ronnie, who was one.

And where was Gus's dad on that day?

Gus's dad wasn't at the property.

And for clarity, we should explain that Josie transitioned in the early 90s.

Shannon and Josie, they were married.

Husband and wife on the property.

Yes.And then things changed.Josie transitioned to a woman and they are no longer together, but they are really good friends and they run a business together and they are business partners and they run the farm together.

And share grandparent responsibilities of little Gus and his brother.That's right.Just talking about Gus as a little character, as a little kid.I think it's fair to say he was a free spirit on that farm.This is a kid who didn't know the city.

From what I've been told...he was adventurous, big smile, loved to explore.The land was, was his playground.

People leave one another alone here.It's pretty good.You want a nice, peaceful life.You've got children and you're worried about the city, what's going to happen.It's a good place, I suppose, to bring up kids if it's safe.You know that the kids can play out in the yard and nobody's going to hurt them.

He often would go for a walk around the property, but he or around the homestead, but he would stick to the road.He wouldn't detour often.He'd never go very far, but he would certainly walk around the homestead to the far reaches of the house paddock, if you want to call it that.I've never bothered to check it, but it's probably five or 10 acres, and he would cover all that, and no problem.I used to see him down the cattle yards occasionally and places like that.

I understand that he has wandered off before, as he does, but there was never any panic because they knew how well he knew the land.

Shan had taken him down to the shearer's quarters while Jess and I were out mustering and he had wandered off and Shan couldn't find him when she was going to come home.So she came home and told us, you know, Gus has gone for a walk somewhere.Jess and I thought, well, we'd better get on the motorbike and just go and find him.So we did that and I was the one who found him and he was probably 100, 120 metres away from me.

In September last year, the scenario was very different.Gus had wandered off and this time hadn't come back.

That's right.The family knew this time this was out of character and there was possibly something very wrong.

I remember looking at my watch when we put the sheep through into the right paddock and it was 10 past.So and we drove straight back without any hold ups.So, yeah, right back there at 5 .30.We were on the front veranda and Shan said that Gus was just down near what we call the bomb shelter playing.And when we had a look, no sign.And we said to Shan, when did you last see him?

And she said, five o 'clock.And so in that half an hour time, half hour time frame, he disappeared.And we immediately, we were a little bit concerned about the cellar we were building because it was possible he could have fallen down there.So that's one of the first things we did.We looked, there was no sign that he'd been down there, no blood on the concrete floor, nothing.And so then Jess and I went down

all the buildings on the property and checking all the, like the swimming pool, just in case he'd managed to somehow open the gate, which is, he'd have to be six foot tall to do it.And checked whatever else we could and still couldn't find him.So we had a quick conference and decided what to do.And we decided we'd better jump on the bikes and go and look.I remember saying to Jess at one stage, we've got 45 minutes of daylight that night.So what that time was, I don't know, but afterwards searched on foot.

But I remember saying, we've got 45 minutes of daylight, we better get with it.We were concentrating within probably three quarters of a K or K of the kilometre of the homestead and just searching where the tanks were, the dams, down by the cottage.think we went to the shearing shed, but I'd be surprised if we didn't.And so Jess and I were in contact with the radio, or visually, pretty well the entire time, even though we might have been separated by three or four hundred metres, we could see each other, we knew where we were.And we kept that up until it was getting to the dark stage, and then we went home.Went into the kitchen, And I think the question was raised, how soon do we notify the authorities that we might have a missing child and we need to do something about it?

And I seem to recall it was sometime around eight o 'clock that we actually made the call.

So it's died.it's getting later and later.When do the police first arrive?Because distance is a tyranny out there.

Yeah, so we understand that an officer named Luke was the first one to arrive from a nearby town.After that officer arrived, there was a second one on his way.

Luke and I were sitting on the hill outside the house trying to spot his flashing lights.And this went on for some time.trying to describe how he should get to the property.And I kept saying, look, go back to Paratoo Homestead and come in on the road.Eventually, he just gave up and went back to our room.So he actually never arrived on the property.

While Luke was there, I got in the vehicle with him and went down to the cottage and we searched that and the shearer's quarters, all the buildings down there, the sheds, and then up to the shearing shed and checked all that.And I'm pretty sure we did the tanks and everything and the dam.because everyone automatically jumps to conclusions that he could be there, even though we'd already checked him two or three times by that stage.A bit later that night, Shan and I went out in the buggy again, and we very carefully, because it was an issue with vehicles running around, if Gus was actually out there and walking around, if he blundered onto the road in front of a vehicle coming in, he could get cleaned up.and run over very easily.So we were being very careful and just quietly, probably 15, 10, 15 k's an hour, moving along the roads, just checking along the roads, because as Jess said, and we're all fairly sure that if he had gone for a walk, he would have been

along the road, because that's what he did.

A remote family sheep station, now the centre of a major police operation.

Let's talk about the very first search, the terrain, the temperatures, the size and the scale that we're dealing with here.

So the first search, they covered 60 ,000 hectares.There were at least 300 police officers and volunteers involved.They covered so much area of the land and they searched all day.

The scale of the air and ground search as part of this investigation is unprecedented.

Certainly the family at the very beginning believed it was just a matter of time before he was found.But by the next day, when the sun was rising, hope started to fade and I got a sense that panic was starting to set in.

Up next, are there new clues in the disappearance of Gus Lamont?

A child would not be able to shift it.And this bedstead had been moved.

Have police told you that you're a main suspect in the case of Gus's disappearance?

I'm going to do it now.That's what Shan and I say nearly, nearly every night when we knock off work, we go and sit on that back veranda with the dogs while they're having their dinner.And we say, how?Why?We just can't believe it.

Hannah, Gus's grandmother Josie told you something extraordinary about what she saw the day after young Gus disappeared.What was that?

It seemed that in the hours before police arrived, there was possible evidence of someone else being on that property.We've never heard this before.

I remember looking out the window, because it was starting to get light by that stage, and there was a bedstead there that we'd set up to put stone on to wash, and that bedstead had been moved not quite 180 degrees, but certainly quite a substantial amount from when I last saw it.And I thought, what the hell's happened there?And it was reasonably heavy.A child would not be able to shift it.And this bedstead had been moved, and I also saw what we called the weather station had been moved.I'm not sure when that happened, but it was, there appeared to be something had happened there.

And I then walked up past where the bedstead was and thought, well, I better not move it because this could be, this could be an indication of something.Then I saw wheel tracks going down past where the bedstead was and past where the weather station was.And these wheelchairs were small tire, medium -sized car and not much tread on them, not a off -road type tread.It was definitely a passenger type.And I thought, that's strange too.And I started to think almost immediately, I wonder if someone's come in.

And all the time I was thinking, you know, there's a chance that he's been taken by someone.I was frankly horrified.at the number of vehicles that were parked around our house, because we hadn't actually seen them come in.My immediate thought was, my God, they've destroyed any chance of tracking him, if he'd walked out on the road or anything, because the road was already pounded up and starting to get dusty, and they'd made a mess.One instance we have, and again, the police apologised to us afterwards, because I saw footprints in one of the dams.The dam was nearly dry.

There was mostly mud.And I found these footprints in the dam and I took photographs of it.And we actually took one of Gus's boots out there and I laid it next to this footprint and took a photograph of it.And I said, it's got to be him.It's got to be him because it's the right size.And the police kept on saying that, no, that it was a police diver.

Yeah, this guy must have had a size, well, someone said it's smaller than a size four ladies footprint.And he must have had tiny feet.And the superintendent admitted to me,was a mistake.

So in the race to search for Gus, perhaps early evidence, early signs about someone else being on the property might have been lost.

That is what her concern is now.

It is fair to say that Josie doesn't have a lot of time for South Australia Police.

She's told me she's not happy with how this investigation has gone or the case of her grandson has been handled.

It was admitted to me later that they think that that was a mistake to come in with all those vehicles so early when they should have actually got the tracker guy from Port Augusta who'd been on our place tracking dogs and trapping them.And we needed to get him there while there was still a chance to find the tracks.But he didn't get there till two or three days after Gus went missing.I'm pretty sure I talked to Luke McCoy and said, look, don't rule out abduction.There's signs that something has occurred in front of the bomb shelter.And that was where Gus was when we last saw him.

And we're suspicious.And I couldn't rule out that he'd walked off and I couldn't rule out that he'd actually been taken.I said, you know, I don't know.And so that's the way I left it.

What are you leaning towards now?

Oh, abduction.There's supposedly 700 peoplewere on our property at any one time.Now, the important people in all that are the locals.It's our job to find things out there.This is what we do.

And as time went on, I was getting more and more convinced when we couldn't find anything, we couldn't find a shoe, a hat, any sign of a top, nothing.We could not find a thing.And everyone said the same thing.This is ridiculous.There would be something out here.There has to be something.

This now leads us to a range of theories and possibilities.What has been speculated about what happened to Gus?

Well, the possibilities are sort of endless at this stage because there is the only evidence is no evidence.So abduction is a possibility.Wildlife being taken by wildlife is a possibility.

If wildlife is a possibility, my bet would be wedge -tailed eagles.Wedge -tailed eagle can pick up a 20, 25 kilogram kangaroo and take it without much difficulty.Gus was 13 or 14 kilograms.So a mature wedge -tailed eagle would find that quite comfortable.

We've also had theories, wild theories, from across the world.Police have had tips from Syria.

Are you kidding?

That's been one of the phone calls they've had, so many.And the sightings from overseas have been discounted.But because there is nothing, you do, you have to follow up every tip and there are hundreds.It is a huge amount of work for police.

If he died of exhaustion, you would have seen the eagles, the hawks, the ravens.all around the area.You would have seen it.

I think somebody's taken him.Whether he's alive or he's dead, God only knows.But the only good thing about it is that if someone has taken him, then there's a threat of a possibility that he may still be alive.

February this year, police hold a press conference and they declare his case a major crime, telling us that he was likely killed.or his body disposed of after an accident.

What evidence did they have to support that?

They did not disclose any evidence that they may or may not have.

To your knowledge, has there been forensic evidence found to support that major crime theory?

Not to my knowledge.

But this is a big development.They're putting it squarely back on involvement within the family.

That's right.In that press conference, abduction, unlikely.Every taken by wildlife, unlikely.So back to the family we go.

The person who has withdrawn their cooperation is now considered a suspect in the disappearance of Gus.I do want to stress, however, that Gus's parents are not suspects in his disappearance.

So they declare a major crime.They don't announce any charges.They don't prosecute anyone.

And at this stage, we still have no charges.A main suspect, but no charges.How do you think South Australian Police have handled this investigation?

To me, they just seem to have tunnel vision and it's getting to the point of almost being vindictive now.

And do you think there's been any discrimination against Jos?

Well, I do.You know, as everybody knows, Josie is a transgender.I challenged the police about this, you know, that they were targeting her because of her transgender situation.And they were mortally offended that I should say it.

So when police declared this a major crime, the family stopped speaking to them.They both hired high -profile lawyers and haven't spoken to them directly since.They haven't been happy with how the search was handled in the first place, and now they're being targeted as possible killers.

All of them or just Josie?

Just Josie.

Up next.They think that I buried him, took him out and buried him.Later.

Do you think he's still alive?

Nine months on from Gus's disappearance, his grandmother Josie Murray remains a suspect.Now, for the first time, what police have told her and what she wants to say to police.

Police told you that you're a main suspect in the case of Gus's disappearance.

They've said that they don't think I hurt him.They think that I buried him.That's one of the theories they're working on.And as I say, that's so many reasons it's ludicrous.It just doesn't make sense.Why would you do that to yourself when you know that, OK, if he'd had an accident, you'd just go, well, you know, as much as we hate it and everything, you know, he's had an accident.

right, you know, we've got to deal with it.

Gus was who you were going to hand over the farm to eventually.

Oh, yeah, that was, I mean, that's the other thing why it's ludicrous.I mean, why would a 70 year old like myself and like Shan be working, which we are, I tend to probably work close to 70 hours a week.I don't stop for weekends or anything.I just keep working every day like there is.Why would I do that at this age if I don't intend to try and handle the property over to Jess and the two boys in the best possible condition I can do it?And I know that I've been accused of taking him from where he had an accident and died and taking him out and burying him.

But to think that I could actually go out there and do something like that, To think that I would be stupid enough to do it, for a start, is ludicrous.And to think that I could face up to the trauma of doing that would also be ridiculous.There's no way under those, when it's so dry and dusty like that, there's no way you can bury something without leaving evidence that the ground has been disturbed.And the amount of searching that went on, aerial, with a helicopter, with the fixed wing, with the drones, with everything, you would see signs of someone being buried.I mean, obviously, they were thinking about the dam.And I had several neighbors who said to me afterwards, it would be, again, ridiculous to think that he'd gone into the dam, because there was a weed all around the dam.

And if anything had gone in there,if we'd put him in the dam or if he'd walked into the dam or anything, you would disturb that weed and it'd be damn obvious.

Have police ruled out abduction?

Almost certainly.They believe it is so unlikely that a stranger would be so opportunistic to go into a property so remote.

The one that is so laughable is the one that the head of the major lot said.that there was only four -wheel drive access to Oak Park, so there was no chance of abduction.And, I mean, that's absurd because the Hilux they've taken down there to do tests on is a two -wheel drive.Shan's got a two -wheel drive.Jess has got a two -wheel drive.The buggy's a two -wheel drive.

I mean, it's laughable.The other thing that they said was that The footage on the security cameras on the property next door, where you come in from Yanta Road, showed that no one had come out to Oak Park in that time frame.So I identified all the sites and there was one I wasn't 100 % sure of until I got a better view of it and then I could see the trees and I said, oh, and that's the one that's on the road in from Yanta at what we call Breakneck Creek.And this bloke said, oh, well, that wasn't working at the time.And I thought, again, lie, because they told me that he couldn't have been taken because no one came in and no one showed up on the cameras.And then they tell me the camera wasn't working.

So, again, just false.There's just been so much of this, thisover all this and mistakes that have been made.

What about the noise?Can you hear cars coming inside your house?

It can be difficult.If it's windy, you're not going to hear them.It's as simple as that.But usually, we've got the dogs there on the loose, and they would alert someone.If someone else drove into the house, you'd hear them barking.But, of course, we were doing sheep work, so we had all the dogs with us.

Just bad luck.

Everybody here is concerned.They are concerned.And they're not only just concerned about the little one missing, but they're concerned about the family as well.I just, I don't know.I don't know how they could handle it because it wouldn't be an easy thing.

You know, we haven't got a body.We haven't got a live body.We haven't got a dead body.We have no idea of quite where he is, but we feel that, yes, he has been taken.

How would you describe her emotions and then to when you sit down with her, her emotions in this interview?Because they're very different.

Very.So throughout the search she's been incredibly hostile, only ever swearing at the media and sneering even.I haven't seen any emotion from her during the searches and there's been 11.But it's clear she's very sad and she's broken and the pressure this family has put on being under the toll that it's taken is unfathomable.

Sorry.

You'd just suddenly be hit by the horror, the enormity of this, and Jess probably more so, but Jess is not quite so prone to talk about it, particularly to me, if you like.But yeah, it's just, and then to be accused of doing something like this, it's just, you could not wish a more horrible experience on anyone.

Does it just break your heart?

I guess we live in the hope that this is a benign abduction and he's still out there somewhere and it just, one, some stages, hopefully soon someone's gonna see him and go, right, and notify the authorities.And yeah, it's to go from, sorry, to go from living a quiet time up there, which is what I've said to a lot of people, that we tend to have a quiet time up there, away from all the nonsense that goes on in the rest of the world, and then to have something thrust on us like this is, yeah.I cannot describe how we feel about it.

Next, what does a forensic criminologist make of this interview?

Well, you wouldn't do that if you were innocent, or you wouldn't do that if you were guilty.

Months after Gus Lamont vanished in South Australia, we're still no closer to knowing what happened.Now, for the first time, we're hearing from one of the last people to see him, his grandmother, Josie Murray.we've shown the interview to a criminal psychologist for fresh insight into this mystery.In what you help police with, what might they look at in Josie's interview in terms of... their investigation.

The investigation team know the materials that they've gathered in this investigation, and a tiny fraction of that, I'm sure, is what is publicly available, for good reason.They would be interested in looking at the account that Josie gives in this interview, looking at how that compares to other information they have gathered.They would presumably be looking at how she presents as well.But something that I've focused on in the detectives training that I provide is not to make any assumptions about body language.It is notoriously flawed in producing any conclusions about whether somebody is truth -telling or potentially deceptive.So something I've focused a lot is ensuring that people focus more on the quality of the evidence that they can extract from an interview.

How important is it then that the investigators, I guess to put it simply, don't judge a book by its cover?

It's extremely important that investigators keep an open mind, and I think for the community as well, because we're in a world where there is a lot of public judgment and immediate decision -making, and it may turn out in the end that certain avenues are confirmed, it may turn out that they're very wrong.if they're wrong, what's the harm that's been done in the meantime?

Until now, we haven't seen emotion in Josie and she's been identified as the main suspect.In fact, we've seen hostility.She's barged media outside of court.She's been very angry with a lot of people on her property.From an investigator's point of view, do you have to be careful about judging that character or those characteristics in the context of this case, a missing child?

Absolutely.And look, I think, you know, for the general public, as humans, it's our tendency to see every event through our filter of what our experience has been and what we've been previously exposed to.And so we can be very quick to judge, well, you wouldn't do that if you were innocent, or you wouldn't do that if you were guilty.But if we haven't lived through that experience, we can't really say that.

There was no sign that he'd been down there, no blood on the concrete floor, nothing.

In your expert opinion, you've had a look at Josie's interview.Broadly, what are your impressions of her and what she's saying?

I think to put oneself out there and address questions, and there can be different motivations for that, but regardless of the situation, I think it's pretty brave because you're putting yourself out there for further public commentary and debate and speculation.

Josie Murray has told us that she has beenconcerns that perhaps early evidence was missed or lost in the rush to find Gus.What was the priority of police then from an investigative point of view at the time when they arrived?

Certainly I know from many, many missing persons investigations that I've assisted the police with, we have to keep in mind that priority of people are desperate to find a child and as quickly as possible.But there are also those protocols of anyone who is missing, as police would be trying to ensure, evidence preservation needs to be a top consideration as well from the very beginning, because evidence can be lost very quickly.But it is, I know it is a real challenge for investigators or responding police to manage both of those priorities.

We're on the front veranda and Shan said Gus was just down near what we call the bomb shelter playing.

Given they have no forensic evidence that we're aware of.We finally have words and in those words are emotions.Does this help police now?Have they got a bit more to go on than they had last week?

Well, I'm hopeful that this might actually enable Josie to feel that she's been able to have her say and that potentially doors may be opened on both sides for more information from Josie to be explored and potentially if Josie feels that she has been listened to and been able to put her perspective or the family's perspective or both, then potentially there's an avenue for more discussion with investigators that would help find out what's happened to Gus.

What would your message be to the public andto authorities now?

Good to go, yeah.Good to go.Detective Chief Superintendent Darren Filkey from Major Crime Investigation Branch.Gus's grandparents, who continue to reside here at Oak Park Station, are represented by solicitors.All communications that Task Force Horizon are having with Gus's grandparents are through the solicitors.One of the grandparents of Gus remains a suspect in this investigation.

What would your message be to the public and to authorities now?

Keep looking for any sign that a child is Gus.Don't take any notice of his hair.His hair is his crowning glory, but it's also the thing that everyone remembers about him the most.And you have to take that hair away from that face and look at that face.And if I just saw the eyes of Gus, I would know him instantly because the way you are.

Do you think we will ever find out what happened to Gus?

I think there is a real possibility that this case will never be solved and we'll never know.and sadly it could end up like a case like William Tyrrell or Madeleine McCann.It's as heartbreaking as it is to say it's a very real possibility.

A cold case with no answers, no clues.

That's how it might stay.Is it hard being in the house?

A lot of his toys still around.We bought him a little two wheel push bike for pedalling around with trainer wheels on.We thought he'd just about at that stage.That's still sitting in the lounge and every time I walk past I go, oh my God.There's all sorts of stuff that reminds me of him.

This situation won't finish until they find either a boy or a body.And ultimately, if Josie is proven innocent, they've already wrecked her life.

We're devastated about what's happened.I mean, You go for a drive on any part of the Barrier Highway and you do think about that little boy Gus.I don't stop thinking about him.I pray that, you know, somewhere along the line he's still around, he's still alive somewhere.That's what I think.

We don't feel that this is a horror story, if you like.And if you think about it, nothing else makes sense.Nothing else makes sense.Do you think he's still alive?I do.I do.

We asked South Australia Police for an interview in relation to Josie's allegations.They told us...Sadly, despite 11 individual large -scale searches of Oak Park Station, no evidence relating to Gus Lamont's disappearance has been located.Task Force Horizon has and will continue to investigate any and all information, including information provided by Gus's family that could assist in identifying what has happened to Gus.As the investigation is ongoing, it is not appropriate for SA Police to discuss specific aspects of the investigation that could compromise any potential future court proceedings.I'm Michael Usher.

Until next week, goodnight.