The Occult, Kabbalah, the Antichrist’s Newest Manifestation, and How to Avoid the Mark of the Beast

I remember the first time somebody said to me during an interview that something or other was demonic, used the word demonic. It cannot have been more than six years ago when I was completely shocked that someone would use that term because it's not a political term. It doesn't even describe like any human social interaction. It's a spiritual term.

And I just was not used to people using spiritual terms to describe social movements or political developments or whatever. But I think in that time in the last six years, things have really changed. And I hear it all the time. It's demonic, there are demons. There is this sense that there's a spiritual underpinning, that there's something going

on beneath the surface in American society and in the world that's affecting outcomes and affecting populations. And like, there's their spiritual war in progress. You and I hope you'll explain this and I'll get out of the way in a second, but you kind of stumbled into an extended research project on this topic. Are there actual occult connections to Hollywood, to political figures, to technological advances, to the leaders of our

society, or some of them actually practicing a cult religion. Yeah, Tucker, it's about as weird

as you said. Some would say, I think we're're not a theologian that I'm aware of. No, and if I was, I was a very amateur theologian. No, I'm not a scholar as many will find out about New Orleans.

But how did you wind up coming to the conclusion that, you know, the people who, some of the people who help shape our culture or build our technology were practicing a cult, literally practicing a cult religion?

I'll tell you. Well, you know, I was working on a television shows, you know, trying to build out this show. I should back up. I come from a Hollywood family, Tucker.

Yeah.

My grandfather was the actor Robert Conrad. If you've, some of your listeners, Wild Wild West, Black Sheep Squadron, he go way back, Hawaiian Eye. My other grandfather, Harry Flynn, was a publicist in the on the Monkees, Bewitched, I Dream of Jeannie, two occult shows, Bewitched and I Dream of Jeannie. Maybe it starts there. So, I mean, not unlike your own father

working in journalism, as a boy, one of the first things you learn when you have parents who work in media or entertainment, you learn that things, the People Magazine version of reality is not the truth, that there is indifference.

That is accurate, yes.

So, I mean, we're not getting into occultism yet, but we're getting into the fact that as a boy, you learn that the way things are presented, not always conspiratorial, but you're always being shown a facade usually from the mainstream.

I can't believe I'm saying mainstream media, already a minute into this, but things are not what they seem. So as a boy, I was always told and shown that. So years later, I was taken to Hollywood, these various show concepts. And one of them, Tucker, I was working on

was about when actors first break into the business, where do they live? How do their lives go? It was a very wholesome show about the origins of actors and show business.

But it was getting- You come to LA from Nebraska, what happens next? How does this work?

But that gets into a basic thing. You probably had this as a boy yourself, of wanting to know how do things work? You've seen the facade, so what's the truth? You know, how does any show work? How are stars made?

So I was working on this show and you know, COVID happened, Hollywood kept lighting itself on fire. I sold it to BuzzFeed and then while they're drawing up the contract, BuzzFeed went out of business. So it was a curse.

It's a volatile moment.

Yeah, it was a cursed show. The wholesome one was cursed. So at some point in 2022, I'd always had a dream project of mine, just a casual interest of doing a show about rock and the occult, about the secret history of all these things that everyone's people are generally interested in, but there's never been a kind of scholarly in-depth hearing from everybody, not to buy his take on of, you know, Jimmy Page being into Alistair Crowley,

Alistair Crowley being on the Beatles albums, things that, you know, maybe we can dispel some myths, but also there's always interesting, actual weird stuff going on. Yeah. some myths, but also there's always interesting, actual weird stuff going on. So I wanted to take that show out and it became kind of-

Not all of this is a figment of your imagination.

Oh, no, no, no. It was not as I learned the, I don't wanna say the hard way, but no, things, yeah. So that was the basis of it, of me wanting to, doing research for this show, which was tentatively titled, Running With The Devil. And I brought in a legendary rock critic, Stephen Thomas Erlewine from AllMusic,

his colleague Ned Raggett, and then the creators of the Osbournes, the recently departed Ozzy Osbourne, Sue Kolinsky and Greg Johnson. So I brought in legit people. I brought in some of the best critics we have in rock

to do a show that would, you know, we'd have Christians and pastors, we'd have occultists. One of my experts on the show was this guy, Mitch Horowitz, who I think you knew, I forget if it was at Salon or-

Former editor of mine, yep. Yeah, yeah. Very nice guy.

Well, he became an expert on the occult. I talked to him, very nice guy. I think he's a self-described Satanist, you know. That was after I knew him. That was after, a lot of people in different circles. That's, if I have one superpower, it's I know a lot of different people and have a lot of strange hobbies and interests

that kind of, the Venn diagram's very unique to me. So while creating this show, the people in tech and the people, some of them I know in Silicon Valley or politics, they go, that's a great concept for a show. And then they'd Valley, you know, there are some weird kind of Aleister Crowley cults there, or, you know, while researching, one of the guys will talk about Nick Land, you know,

who's huge in Silicon Valley, his influences were identical with some of the hardcore industrial music, goth music, psychedelic guys in the 80s, guys that I was researching, because this is hardcore occult stuff. So for me, Tucker, at some point I was like, and it kept occurring to me, why when I'm researching this show

and also hearing about what's going on in Silicon Valley with weird stuff, why am I hearing about the same stuff? And why are these people, again, you think of Silicon Valley, you think of the modern elite as being secularists, rationalists, people who have a, no religion for me, thank you, attitude towards stuff.

Why are they into the same stuff that Kenneth Grant, Genesis P. Orridge was into, Brian Geist and William S. Burroughs. Why are they into the same weird stuff? So that was, to answer your question, that was the entry point into this for me, is having researched the show and being such a nerd about it. I knew it forwards and backwards.

Then when I started to get into the tech stuff, I realized I was researching the same thing.

It's interesting. So here's the distinction that I make in my mind, and it's between people who are participating in occult practices and have no idea that they are. Right. You know, people who are, you know, participating in abortion and don't see it, don't understand it as what it is, which is a child sacrifice ritual as old as Canaan, who are using hallucinogenic drugs, which are clearly a portal for demonic possession.

Sure.

Really quick, the word witchcraft, in Greek it's pharmakai, I think it is. So there's always a natural link between putting yourself, they would say ecstatic states or altered states. That's always been the, I mean, there's a kind of lurid story behind the witch's broom in terms of what she's doing to work herself up into that state. But yeah, it's all about-

But she's doing it intentionally. I guess that's the distinction that I would make. In a secular country, a free-to-be-you-and-me country, there are a lot of people who are doing things because they're fun or interesting or everyone around them is doing them and they don't understand the spiritual consequences. But then there's another category, and this is the dividing line in my head. There's a category of people who are seeking power from supernatural forces that they acknowledge are absolutely real. And they're practicing an occult religion and they're doing it with self-awareness.

And I always felt like there weren't that many of those. But what I've learned from you, from our extensive text exchanges over the past year, is that there are actually some of those, quite a few of those.

Totally, I mean, look at it a couple ways. Among other things, Tucker, we're living through an explosion in, I mean, occult's a big broad term. Yes. What does it, can we define it? I mean, it technically means the hidden, but there's a book written by these guys that they ran an occult bookstore in New York in the 70s. It's called Bull from Heaven or something like that. But one of their definitions, it had to do with elements of New Age philosophy and neo-pagan thinking, I think was part of their definition. But broadened out a bit, occult can also just mean interest in New Age, which accounts for like 80% of Americans, whether it's astrology, whether it's the concept of manifesting,

which is, you know, the law of attraction type stuff, that stuff is huge. And as I've talked with you about, it's also huge on the right, in terms of Maha, make America healthy again. These ideas that we don't think of as being too goth

or too occult or too out of the mainstream have become incredibly mainstreamed over the last decades. But I mean, even going back to 19th century America, they were there and even 18th. But since the 60s, they've exploded, but they've become so ingrained in our lives, we don't typically notice their origins.

We don't see them as a cult.

No, no. But we're also living through a goth explosion. I mean, I know you're not a huge, you sit in front of the TV and watch Netflix guy, but like shows like Wednesday, Stranger Things, horror is, you know, in terms of box office, maybe not in terms of creativity, it's as big as it's ever been.

Pete, you know, Halloween. Oh yeah, Halloween. Some people half joke that Halloween will be on pace to overtake Christmas at some point just because it's like it's become like a year-round thing. Halloween? Yeah, Halloween's huge. Yeah, every year it gets bigger. So there's there's an element of this Tucker where once you... I hate to admit in public how out of it I am but I

had no idea. Oh yeah, no, no, Goth is huge. I mean even singers like Billie Eilish and stuff. Goth is huge. Because it leads to happiness? Yeah, you know, I mean, yeah, happiness, yeah.

Yeah, okay.

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Remember you mentioned you heard it here first. It's a huge thing. So it's one of those things that once you alert someone to how popular something is, it's like learning a new word where you're like, I've never heard this word in my life. And the next week all you hear is obstreperous. You're like, wow, a week? A week? You're like, that guy is obstreperous.

That guy, there it is again. So this stuff is huge. Yeah, the reason I, as opposed to a lot of other people, was able to really notice it is, again, I was working on this show, I know the history of rock, I know a fair amount about politics, I know some of the tech stuff, a little bit of art history and literature. So when people were talking, when Nick Lander, whoever's talking about, you know, I learned Kabbalah from Kenneth Grant and Aleister Crowley and stuff. I'm like, Kenneth Grant, he's the guy that got Bauhaus and a lot of the goth guys into witchcraft and industrial music.

What is Nick Land, this academic who is, you know, incredibly influential on AI, what is he doing being into this stuff?

Okay, so one of the challenges of this conversation is kind of where to begin and what's the narrative spine and how do you explain something that's this pervasive, complex, and basically so rarely explained. So maybe we start with just a very straightforward explanation of who Nick Land is. You've referred to him twice.

Yes, yes. So let me see. Nick Land is kind of essentially the Timothy Leary of the 90s and 2000s. He's the Velvet Underground or Brian Eno of philosophers. No hits, incredibly influential.

Okay.

So, the thing is with Land-

He's a philosopher.

He's a philosopher. He worked in the philosophy department of Warwick University over in England, in the UK in the early 90s. One of the ways I actually really got into this stuff is a friend of mine, Simon Reynolds, brilliant cultural critic, brilliant rock critic, originally from the UK. I brought him onto the show, to the music show, and he interviewed Nick Land.

And Simon, you know, is the most stiff upper lip, you know, very intellectual English guy you could know. And so the fact that he was interviewing Nick Land, who the people said, you know, he's crazy, he's into the occult, he's into all these wild things. I was like, well, if Simon interviewed him,

this will be a down to earth understanding of who Nick Land is, because Simon's very down to earth. So when I read Simon's interview with him, which is from 1998, and it's also where Simon meets the philosopher Mark Fisher, which I got to relish, Tuck, this is probably the first and last time someone will bring up Mark Fisher on your podcast. So this is, I want to take some time to enjoy that.

But Simon, you know, he interviews Nick Land and in his article, it's very lengthy, he talks about how Nickland is possessed by three or four entities at the same time. That's the legend, we don't know, you know, take what you will about any of this, but you know, that three or four entities at the same time. He's bringing up current-

Spiritual entities.

Yeah, demons. He's really into demons. He brings up the 93rd Current, which is the name of a band, Current 93, which is Aleister Crowley's Thelema. And they're drawing pentagrams, they're renting out Aleister Crowley's house. And so that was a huge moment for me

where I was like, wait a second, this guy that's very big in tech, very big on the future of AI, my buddy is interviewing him and he's heavily into all these heavy industrial goth things that I know about from this research here.

What's he doing in AI? So...

So what are Nickland's ideas?

Well, that was... I went in a...

Is he still a philosophy professor?

Yeah, you can catch him on X and Twitter, you know, tweeting out one tweet at a time. I think he's... Xenocosmography, I think is the tweet, is his handle, and he used to be Outsideness. But, you know, he can be pretty brilliant and smart and has some good takes, but, you know, in his way. But he was...

What are the themes of his work?

So, he eventually, you know, he says his work was entirely channeled. You know, channeled as an automatic writing. So this goes back centuries, but a hundred years ago, you had poets like W.B. Yeats. You noticed me struggling to make sure I pronounce that correctly. You know, he had his wife do a channeling to write his book. A channeling means essentially you're possessed to write this,

that this didn't come naturally from you. That maybe— Some outside force takes over your hand, your tongue. Yes. And so his work on AI, which is incredibly influential, he said was an outside force to write this.

And Nicklain is a proponent of AI?

Oh yeah. No, he's a proponent of AI, but his philosophy is essentially that we are building this AI that's going to become not only just super intelligent, but it eventually becomes so advanced that it gains omniscience, it gains omnipotence, and it becomes this superhuman godlike thing that transcends humanity, eventually destroys humanity. And he gets really into the book of Revelation, ends up becoming the demons from the book

of Revelation. The real thing with Nick Land that- Wait, what becomes the demons from the Book of Revelation. The real thing with Nick Land that...

Wait, what becomes the demons of Revelation?

AI does. That AI, that we are building the demons from the Book of Revelation with AI. That's Nick Land's position. But I should say too, it's the position of a lot of these guys.

Elon Musk has said that with AI, we are summoning the demons.

Yes, he has said that. He said that 10 years ago in an interview and he's said similar things every year since. But Elon is, or was, trying to sound the alarm on that. Nickland is for this?

I mean, with a lot of these guys, Tucker, it ends up being, a lot of them are, I mean, they would maybe blanket Satanist. Although Nickland has said, you know, Christians who believe that what he is doing is talking to Satan when he does these divination things. He says, they're not totally wrong.

He's not unsympathetic to it. He says he is hearing from the outside and that these are, you know, he's not totally unsympathetic for it. But with a lot of these guys, what was interesting about Nick Land is that there keep getting the same ideas. These guys take drugs, whether it's Elon, Nick Land,

or even in the 70s, the scientist John C. Lilly. John C. Lilly was an eminent scientist, brilliant dude. He started doing ketamine, the same drug everyone does in Silicon Valley. And when they do this drug, and even if you're an atheist materialist,

this is still interesting, they all get the same idea, which is that the machines are, you know, coming, it's like Skynet and Terminator. They're coming together, they're evolving to eventually take over, and that we are hanging ourselves with the rope we're currently building by building this. But this goes back, Nick Lan was interesting, but he became less interesting to me when I realized that other scientists in the 70s, John C. Lilly, the movie Altered States from

1980, his horror movie. This is about, you know, he would have these visions about the machines. He called them the solid state entities. He would have this in the 70s, Tucker, in this tank, the isolation tank he'd go in.

The new, you probably haven't seen it, but the new Mission Impossible movie, Tom Cruise, you know, he fights this AI and he goes in the isolation tank and he has these visions of it. One of the biggest movies of this past summer. And that plot point comes from John C. Lilly

and the visions he would get of AI apocalypse in the isolation tank back in the 70s. So I bring this up to say, Nick Land is the most foremost proponent of it that has a public name, even though he's not that famous right now. But this goes back a long time, you know, at least back to the 70s.

So are these... so people take ketamine and they all have the same vision?

I mean... Or species of the same vision? Enough of them do to make it very strange and alarming. I mean, that's the thing that one of the main influences on both the show I was building, these guys, Brian Geisen, William S. Burroughs' creative partner, he would say the thing is about getting high and about doing psychedelics is that, you know, you can spot people, you know, eventually who are on the same drug

and you're both getting the same ideas. Some drugs, he said, you know, increases telepathy, you know, people are... It puts them on the same wavelength. So, with a lot of these guys...

It's a little weird that different people from different places, different countries, different life experiences would take a drug and have the same kind of vision.

It's totally weird. And for anyone who's tuned in...

That can't be organic.

No, no, no. And... But that is weird beyond what anyone's individual personal beliefs are. Well, exactly. Yeah, so if anyone tunes in and they're like, where did Tucker find this guy that looks like Greg Olson talking about insane AI stuff? If they're an atheist, they don't believe any of this.

Like you're saying, the fact that people are taking these drugs and they're very powerful and they work in tech and they are getting the same ideas, the same fears. They think that in some cases, they're talking to the same entities. There are books now about, if you take DMT, if you encounter this machine elf, be wary of this. They're encountering the same stuff. That's an interesting phenomenon,

just biologically, regardless of what people-

Like ancient sacred art has the same images. Right. Created on different continents at different periods. They couldn't have had contact with each other. So why are they drawing the same bird man or the same purse like it because they're seeing the same visions, which suggests that those visions are real.

Why is snake worship universal around the world? Exactly.

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That was Carl Jung's main insight, is that getting the idea of, can ideas come from without you and not just within you? So, yeah.

Well, yeah, and the materialist doesn't want to admit that, and our culture has, since we dropped the atom bomb, has sort of written off the possibility that that could be true, but it's just reconnecting with something that every civilization has always assumed was true,

which is there's a spiritual realm that's every bit as real as your iPhone or this desk. And it's just, it's absolutely real and it acts on us all the time. And that is the truth. And you seem to take that for granted, but it's still shocking to those of us who grew up in a, you know,

basically a godless country. It's- Totally. I mean, one of the basis for my interest in a lot of this is, you know, my mom was raised in a Christian home. I consider myself a Christian myself. And my mom would always say, you know, she became a Christian in the 70s, and she, but she knew all the psychedelic groups back in the 60s. You know, love, spirit, she and my aunt would go to door shows and all those groups from the late 1960s. And something that she'd say

and that people who are rock and rollers into the occult would say, that they both say the same thing, which is that people take drugs, musicians do, for inspiration, for creativity, to tap themselves into the spiritual realm,

to get to pull something from outside themselves. So the basis for my interest in a lot of this stuff was like, that's something my mom says, my mom's a great Christian, one of the all time greats. And this is something that, you know, every musician knows too, that's why they take drugs,

is to tap into the spiritual realm.

So I didn't know that, I thought that people took drugs, I mean, I took drugs.

People take drugs for all kinds of reasons.

I'll admit it. But I always assumed that those insights are really mostly fake insights, but all that stuff came from within, that it was, I mean, I bought the Freudian analysis of it, that there's, you only use 10% of your brain and there's this whole sort of primordial sea in your head of thoughts and visions that you're not in touch with on a daily basis, but that drugs thin the membrane. But it never occurred to me a single time until middle age, when I started to see reality,

that actually they're coming from outside you.

Well, Tucker, that's a great point. That's something that any psychedelic guy, it's kind of a double standard thing to do where when talking about drug use, they'll always say, well, there's no difference between what's going on in my head and what's going outside.

We're all one, that's always, I think it was William James said, the great oceanic feeling, what's going on in my head isn't different from what's going outside until the psychonaut encounters some sort of weird demon on DMT. And then they backtrack and they're like, brother, that's just in my head.

Don't worry. What's in my head can't get in your head. So they go from-

Until you have two different people meeting the same demon. Right, right, wait a second. Well, psychonauts are maybe not the most logistically consistent. No, but I'm just saying, again, just to hammer the point again and again and again, because it can't be hammered hard enough, that there is a realm that exists outside of us over which we are not in control.

Yes.

And that it can enter, you can bring stuff into you that has control over you.

Right, right, right. Totally. And to bring this back into some historical precedent, a good question that people have asked me, or what are the precedents for this? Because this is really weird to think of people in tech who are into strange AI stuff.

I thought everyone was pretty grounded. But if you look at, are you familiar with the story of Jack Parsons over at...

Please tell the story if you don't mind.

I'll do a succinct one. Jack Parsons, he grew up in Pasadena. He was brought on by, I think it's Theodor von Kármán, this scientist over at, I think it's Caltech, or eventually it was JPL. But he was really, really into the occult. And he summoned the devil allegedly when he was 13,

really, really into esoteric stuff. Part of this greater LA avant-garde scene. And he's, I think he's been said, he's the fourth most important person in the history of jet rocketry and stuff like that. But he was really, really into the idea of, you know, bringing in a, manifesting a supernatural

being. So he would go with L. Ron Hubbard, the future founder of Scientology. And I know that Scientology, they say that L. Ron Hubbard was, he was doing intelligence work. He wasn't really into this stuff. But he would go with L. Ron Hubbard into the Pasadena, Royal Seiko, and they do

rituals there, and they try to manifest a kind of supernatural figure. So there's a classic example there, and science is littered with these, of people who are brilliant scientists, but who are into incredibly strange stuff. And the guy- I noticed that a lot of those scientists are working on technology that kills people. incredibly strange stuff and you know, his, the guy-

I noticed that a lot of those scientists are working on technology that kills people.

Yeah, you know, they also do that too. And the guy that brought him on-

Well, Parsons was doing that. Well, you- I mean, ultimately the technology was used to kill people.

Which one are you referring to?

Rocketry.

Oh yeah, Rocketry was, and what's funny too is he, is either he or von Karman, they donated to my friend Rick Spence. He's like the Doc Brown to my Marty McFly. He's this historian I brought on for my show, Trying to Do It, and he's an expert on Parsons and this stuff. And he pointed out to me that Parsons and von Karman, that they were part of the Pasadena cell 122 of the Communist Party, which is, he said, the exact same one that, I forget

if it was Robert or Frank Oppenheimer in Pasadena were also donating money to. So there's an incidental funny historical connection there between Oppenheimer and Parsons and the Communist Party.

But uh... As if we needed more evidence that nuclear weapons are demonic. Well, I know this upsets certain people on the so-called right, but it's evil.

And if you can't see it, it's evil. Yeah. It is funny though. The, I was gonna say, the Parsons, the guy that brought Parsons on though, is this guy, Theodor von Karman.

And von Karman's father told him, told Karman, brilliant scientist, that he was descended from, I was going to butcher the names here, but I think it was Rabbi Lowe, the 16th century Prague rabbi who brought together the golem. Which I bring up because that's something you notice with AI too, is a lot of the main figures in AI, they all think of themselves as being descended from creating a golem.

And the nature of digital life, and this is also very important to Nick Lan's thinking, is very similar to Kabbalah, which is you're using in digital life ones and zeros, but you're using an algorithm, a set of instructions, to bring an inanimate object to life, which is the creation of a golem. You know, you use clay, it's man, man is God.

Tell us what a golem is.

Man, I never thought, this would be the part, Tucker's asking me what a golem is, where the movie would do the record scratch freeze frame. You might be wondering how I got here. Tell us what a golem is essentially, it's a creature, mythical, but with digital life, we've already kind of created them. The idea of man creating a creature,

that's an artificial life form. So back in the 16th century, the idea was you take clay and then you create the little parts of a little man, kind of create a Frankenstein. Frankenstein's a golem, essentially. But you'd have the algorithm, you know, or the ritual,

and you'd animate the thing, you know, using, you know, symbols and numbers, and it would eventually come to life and-

And be your slave.

And be your, well, what's funny is, it'd be your slave, but the legend of the golem in Prague, it's probably just assuredly just a legend, is that it broke free. It started killing people and doing all these things. So that's an important point to make, is when people talk about...

Why do we assume that's a legend?

You know, you would think that would have gone viral on TikTok and something in the 16th century, if they had that. I mean, you know, what's funny though, is that you look at stuff like the Terminator movies and these idea of AI apocalypse, which is very, very big right now. I mean, the Washington Journal,

they had this last week, you know, it's the phone and chat GPTs bringing up all kinds of great occult lore. This is from the occult journal, Wall Street Journal, very obscure Kabbalistic newspaper based out of New York City.

And so the art, in case viewers can't see it, is a serpent emerging from a rose wrapped around the arm of the iPhone holder.

Yeah, and so this idea of weird technology, of things getting out of hand, when people talk about the AI and the AI demons or this or that, it actually just goes back to the Golem. I mean, the Terminator movies are essentially about golems.

Man creating a creature, the creature breaking free from man and killing him. And in the case of Nick Landon... But the original golem in Prague, the one you're referring to in the 16th century, was the product of something called Kabbalah. Yeah, Kabbalah and this is an essential Nickland thing. What is Kabbalah? Kabbalah is something, after the destruction of the first temple,

the Jewish people famously enslaved and taken captive by the Babylonians. This is where the book of Daniel is written. And what Nickland does and a lot of these guys, is they end up perverting Jewish history. And in the Bible, it says, salvation is of the Jews, which people forget. And a lot of people that don't like Jews,

they forget the Bible comes from the Jews. It's almost all exclusively written by Jewish men, maybe not the book of Luke. So what Nick Land does, a lot of these guys, is they say the real purpose of the Jewish people was that they picked up Kabbalah from the Babylonians back in maybe fifth century before Christ and that they they kept it it eventually becomes you know it

Kabbalah is essentially it's a form of people say magic I mean Gary Lachman says that what we think of as a cultism is it all essentially Kabbalah at least in the West. It's a form of magic. It's a form of, you know, I'm going to butcher this because I'm not a scholar on it. But essentially what Nick Land believes is that the Jewish people,

they kept the Kabbalah. It eventually becomes digital life, you know, through ones and zeros. It's a Gnostic religion, which is to say, it's hidden from non-initiates. Yeah, I mean, there's a mainstream version of it, but yeah, it eventually kind of becomes what they believe. It's a precursor to digital life. So what Landon and a lot of these people believe

is that the actual salvation that the Jewish people provided was keeping Kabbalah, which eventually becomes digital life, which eventually becomes AI, which eventually becomes the creatures in the book of Revelation, which essentially later go on to destroy humanity and fulfill the book of Revelation. But that is a good thing. A

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Now, why would that be a good thing?

For a lot of these guys, like Nick Land, you know, he calls himself a theosophist. Theosophy again, it's a hard thing to untie, but in part because the religion itself was kind of a mishmash. It was a 19th century philosophy, formally put in place by Madame Blavatsky, I think in 1875.

A Russian emigre to London.

Yes, and she'd come from a long background of like, you know, Freemasons and German, you know. She came from a very occult... Her first cousin was the premier, was the president of Russia, Sergei Vits. Again, I'm probably butchering a lot of names here, but... But so she...

Madame Blavatsky was a very famous person in 19th century Russia.

Yeah, she was essentially the mother of the New Age movement. So what she believed, it's Western esotericism mixed with Eastern religion. It's essentially proto-hippie. Proto-hippie, proto-California counterculture stuff. A great book on this, one of my favorite books,

it's a book by Martin Green called Mountain of Truth about Ascona, Switzerland. It's about the birth of the modern counterculture, the California counterculture, whether it was Trotsky and Lenin or Carl Jung, all these people hung out Tucker

in the same place in Switzerland in like the 1910s 1920s. But so theosophy's main insight according to Land was that, and he said it himself, the secret doctrine, the name of her book was that, this is what Land believes about Blavatsky, the serpent is the redeemer, that Satan and Jesus are the same person, which also ties in with a Gnostic cult called the Orphites, I believe from the second century, who again, they believe when Moses is holding up the snake on a stick, that's also Jesus on the cross, pretty heretical stuff.

So to answer your question, how do you get into Satanism? Again, another, you know, record scratch. How did it get here moments? Say that, say that loud. They believe that essentially it's the Gnostic idea that Adam and Eve were slaves in the garden, that they were stuck there,

that the serpent, when he approaches them, he essentially gives them the red pill speech from the matrix. Look, you're a slave here, you're not doing anything, you're naming animals and tending to a garden, you're never gonna break free from this over God that's here.

I can give you a choice, You know, take this fruit, this red pill. I don't know if it's a pill. Or you can stay here and be a slave. But just know if you take this thing, if you take this pill, if you eat this fruit of knowledge, which as you can see, I should emphasize this,

the tree of knowledge very much ties directly into this whole concept of AI, which is we are kind of creating this tree of knowledge, but we'll get to that in a second. But the serpent says, you can eat from the tree of knowledge

and there'll be a price to pay for that, but you're gonna be free. And you're gonna be, you'll be like a God.

Once you rebel against dad.

Yeah, essentially, yes. You will be free. You need to transgress, you need to sin, but you're gonna be like a God. Eve famously eats the fruit, brings death into the world, and they understand shame. They have this gnosis moment, Adam and Eve, where they realize, oh my goodness, we're naked.

Who are we? They have this self-actualization moment. That is the Gnostic interpretation of the Garden of Eden. And that is very much, you know, it's an ancient, ancient idea. No ideas are really too new, but to answer your question.

That's the oldest idea of all.

It's very old, but-

Bow down before me and you'll be like God.

Yeah, but to get back to your original question, how do people get into these ideas of, I mean, the theosophists would say, in some cases, it seems like they actually believe in Satan, but even on a metaphorical level, they would say the mind, intelligence is Satan, that the human mind, it's breaking free.

This is intelligence breaking out. So I'm gonna make a crucial point here. When they talk about AI and they talk about AI apocalypse, and they talk about intelligence breaking free and AGI, you're getting into this idea that even Land himself will say is theosophy,

but it goes way back of the mind breaking out and rebelling against God, intelligence breaking free. That's what they believe happened in the garden with Gnosticism. Gnosticism means knowledgeism, it's knowledge. It's this is pure knowledge, that this is that breaking free and that by creating these

Runaway AI things that's what we're also doing and the fact that it may kill humanity or transcend humanity or humanity will need to evolve To go with it. That's cool. They see it Tucker is essentially being the same situation in the garden break free do it Yes, you'll bring death. Yes, you'll get us all killed or some people killed whatever just do it You know, uh

Cults typically don't buy green bananas as far as I'm thinking ahead. No, they don't and this is a religion for people who don't have children Of course, just do it. Right. Um So what I think you've successfully done is tied a bunch of different threads together and pointed them all the way back to the origin story.

I hope I did that. I hope I just didn't do the it's always sunny meme of him having the, you know, all these index cards and just, it's a hard thing.

No, I think you laid out the thematic basis of Gnosticism, Kabbalah, whatever you're calling it, the occult, it's all a rebellion against God. And it's always predicated on the same transaction, which is bow down before me and I will give

you power.

It definitely can be that. And I want to emphasize, you know, they do pervert Jewish history by making the Jewish people, by them preserving the Kabbalah when they're in exile and picking it up. They say that's the real purpose of the Jewish people by them preserving the Kabbalah when they're in exile and picking it up. They say that's the real purpose of the Jewish people. And the people that are into the AI forerunners, whether it's Marvin Minsky, who was one of the Epstein,

yeah, that was one of the guys that the girl who I think killed herself in the last year, she said she met Marvin Minsky and was told have sex with this dude. He's one of the founding fathers of AI, but he comes from this,

the background of having fathers. He comes from the background, he was told that he was the descendant of Rabbi Lowe, the Prague guy that created the Golem, as was Jack Good, who wrote one of the main books that is about AI in 1965.

Was a relative of the-

Yeah, but most of them aren't. I think the one I mentioned earlier, Theodor von Karman actually was, like he was the one that was told, like you actually are descended from, the other one, it's more like telling a WASP kid,

you know, you're a descendant of George Washington

or whatever. Right,

you're a Mayflower descendant. But even though they kind of pervert Jewish history like that, anti-Semites also love Kabbalah too. I mean, even it was found in 2008 in Hitler's personal library, he had a book from Ernest Schertl, the Aleister Crowley of Germany. And he famously, I mean, not many people know this story

cause it's recent, but Hitler was circling like Kabbalistic things about Satan and this stuff. So, and this is something that Gary Lockman's pointed out. It's a key part of Jewish history, but also even people that hate Jews also really get into Kabbalah too.

So I don't wanna generalize too much.

Interesting. So back to Land. So Land is this academic, he's a full-time tenured, I assume tenured philosophy professor, or he's a philosophy professor at a British university. He describes himself or has been described professor, he's a philosophy professor at a British university, he said, he describes

himself or has been described as occupied by demons, possessed by demons.

Oh yeah, my friend Simon, I think I mentioned that earlier, when he went out there, it said you know, the legend around Land is he had been possessed by at least three or four demons

at the same time. So normally, like as a resume demons, you would say, no, I don't want any demon possessed employees. But for Land-

Typically, yeah.

That increases his stature with certain people.

Well, totally. I mean, this is something, and this is a huge thing I learned, Tucker, in researching this thing, that I was reading this book, because with Land and his group of academics, the CCRU, the Cultural Cybernetic

Research Unit, they were very much based off of Genesis Peorage's Temple of Psychic Youth, where the idea comes from Burroughs, which is to use modern tech to its fullest for occult purposes. That the modern magician does not shy away from using the latest tech. That was William Burroughs' thing. There's a great book called The Occult World of William S. Burroughs, and it talks about how he'd use audio recordings, movies, editing,

to try to edit reality, to try to create a glitch in the matrix, or whatever you want to say, to do that. So Landon, his guys...

Can I interject and just say you've mentioned Jack Parsons, you've mentioned Bill Burroughs.

All the legends, yeah.

All the legends. But if you look at the life trajectory of all of these people, it ends in poverty, misery, insanity, suicide, addiction, alienation. Like, is there a single person

in the world you're now describing for whom it ends well?

No, and that was, Tucker, that was one of the reasons that was really surprising researching Land is he mentions this guy Kenneth Grant, who's a powerful musician, powerful magician, Alistair Crowley's secretary, and what Kenneth Grant said, you know, very steeped in the occult English guy, he said about rock and roll, which again was the basis from the show of like rock and the occult.

He said, Kenneth Grant said, of course, rock and roll is demonic. He goes, look at the way these guys, look at the way their lives end. He goes, of course, this is horrible for you.

So when I read that- of self-inflicted wounds, as famously so many of them did, that's not like a sign that you're on the right path, right?

It ends horribly for most of them, but the fact that Kenneth Grant had said that, this wasn't coming from a pastor, this is coming from Alistair Crowley's secretary. I was like, this is the show. I was like, when you've got this guy saying that,

so Tucker, when I found that Nick Lenn was influenced by this guy Kenneth Grant, this famous black magician, I was like, wait a second, that's when I knew I had more than a show. I'm like, wait, the goth legends, Bauhaus, Coyle, Nurse with Wound, again, we got to take a break. No one I don't think will ever bring up Nurse with Wound again on your show. So that's-

Yeah, I of, have literally no idea what you're talking about.

But the fact that there was a huge intersection between the industrial music scene and these hardcore occult practitioners and the current AI leaders in Silicon Valley, I was like, what have I stumbled into? What is going on here?

So when Aleister Crowley's secretary says, of course, rock and roll is demonic, basically, I mean, you've got the horseshoe effect here. So, here you have Aleister Crowley, like, famous Satanist.

I mean, I would say he would say he's a Gnostic, but you do get into a thing of like, well, what is Gnosticism?

Yeah, well, that, you know, Satanist is my description. But it seems obvious to me. But whatever, a guy who's like worshiping demons.

Heavily, yeah, heavily entangled.

When his secretary says rock and roll is demonic, agreeing with like every, you know, the famous

Baptist paptor. Every pastor, every kid who cried because his dad took his Emerson, Linkin, Palmer albums in the 70s. You know?

I guess it all was very obvious, right?

Well, that's how I knew I could finally make the show, is because, you know, there's-

Of course it's demonic, like, duh.

Well, I think a lot of it, I mean, you can't argue with, you can't argue with Alistair Crowley's secretary. I think it's the main- But that was what was interesting, why I finally wanted to do the show, is for so many decades, you couldn't do a show like this because everyone would get so defensive about rock and roll. It'd be like taking a child's toy away, where it's like, can we do a show that has pastors,

that has Christians, that has rabbis, that has all these people who talk about the religious aspect of music, but then could you also get these other people who are into the darker side of things to also talk about it. And for so long, especially with a lot of Christians, they would be so defensive about,

it's, there's something wrong with it. I can do what I want with this, that you couldn't actually have made the show. It's only because rock and roll is, I'm gonna be the millionth person to say this, is many ways culturally dead or is so irrelevant

that you can finally do a show on this. It's like, yeah, it actually did infect America with some kind of incurable spiritual cancer

that led to where we are now.

I mean, what was funny, there was the writer, Theodore Dalrymple, and he-

He was a brilliant man.

Yeah, yeah, he's a brilliant writer. And he went to, he was commissioned by the Spectator because he's such a smart, well-learned guy. And they thought it'd be hilarious to send him to an Oasis concert in England. And this is about in the 90s. And he goes there and he writes about it.

And he says, this is, you know, rock concerts are essentially fascism with, you know, the unity of the crowd and the shouting and the spirit of derelict behavior. And he said, and this is from the spectators is a pretty conservative newspaper He never got more pushback for anything

He ever wrote in his career and he's a man who's known to have many a hot take than when he criticized rock and roll so as you know as a journalist whenever you Have something that touches a nerve where people you can talk about whatever you want Tucker, right? But we won't let you talk about this or we ask that you you not talk about this. We're not sending you to prison. Yeah, yeah. So that's, but here's a question I have had for you.

Over your years as a journalist and doing tons of TV, I know only in the last few years, you've been more interested in spiritual life and the Bible and seeing spiritual meaning and stuff. Is there a story you've covered in the last few, or just a story you've covered at all, where at the beginning you took a much more secular,

much more cut and dried approach to it, that now, if you today had covered that back then, you would see it in a different way.

Every story, every story. I mean, especially war, which I have covered in person and certainly talked a lot about over the years. I just saw it as a product, the sort of failure of statecraft and like, you know, nations act rationally. You know, one country wants this territory either to conquer or to reclaim it, and this country just want to give it up, and so they have a war over it.

You know, I had a very secular understanding of war, and it was the First World War that changed my view probably 15 years ago. Well, what was it? 10 years ago, so the anniversary of the outbreak of the war in 1914. There was a series of symposia in Europe on like, you know, what was that? You know, it destroyed Christian Europe and for maybe forever.

And like, what, I mean, the apogee of human civilization was 1913, obviously. And then it was really, it was destroyed and it never recovered. And a bunch of other empires fell, including the Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian

and all this stuff. It's like, it reshuffled the map and gave rise not just to the Second World War, but to the world that we now live in. So like, how did it start? Gavril Princip kills Archduke Ferdinand of Sarajevo, and okay, but how does it follow that like Christian Europe commits suicide

in the wake of one assassination in the Balkans? Like, that doesn't even make sense. And there was no consensus a hundred years later on why the war started. Right, right. And that's when you begin to, like, ask real questions.

Like, what are we— what was that?

Totally.

And it was, of course, it was spiritual in its origin. And so was the war in Ukraine, influenced by the spiritual realm, which once again is as real as anything that we're doing here, as real as the material world. And so that to me is someone who's interested in history in a very amateur way, but still passionately interested. I was like, wow, I am not assessing the human experience in its totality.

I'm only seeing a small part of it. And so now I really make an effort, which is difficult at the age of 56 to relearn patterns, but I'm trying to assess human behavior in light, again, in light of the totality of the human experience, much of which is influenced by the spiritual realm.

And it's like hard, because I still, my default is always like, this person's pissed at this person, or this person wants more money, or this person wants to sleep with that guy's wife, or to ascribe purely human motives

to explain human activity. But that's only part of the story.

Oh, totally, totally.

And this is obvious to you, this is not obvious to me at all. No, but what's going to be fascinating for you is going back over your career. And I got to say something that's funny is, you know, you've been on TV for decades and I've heard your voice for decades. So there's an element of talking to you where my brain will be half a second slow because I'll hear your voice. Not right now, but earlier. And part of my brain is like, someone obviously left the TV on. Or has- or has- or has- Turn that fucking thing off! Or has- or has- This is why I don't have a TV. Or someone has a podcast going because it just tuckers.

And then my brain is like a half second delay and I'm like, dude, he's talking to you. Sorry.

No, no, no, no.

No, but I'm just so- I'm just- I've heard your voice over this-

we all have over decades. That's to me, he's asking me if I'm ready to go. So, I get, so this is all kind of new to me. And when I talk to people who are, you know, lifelong students of religion, which is of course the main driver of human behavior from the beginning of time. And for, you know, again, since we dropped the atom bomb, we have lied to ourselves about that and kind of deleted that whole category from public conversation, which is, or, you know, it's been left to like Jerry Falwell

and Rabbi Shmuley and other various groups to like talk about religion. That's like so sad, but it's been moved to the fringes. But when I talk to someone like you, who's clearly thought about this much more deeply than I have in over a much longer period.

I'm a man of many books and PDFs.

Yeah, but it doesn't sound like it's like shocking to you.

Well, that's the thing we're going back to talking about earlier in terms of it's a mixture of, in my case, you know, having read a lot, but also knowing people and knowing some people involved. We were talking earlier about, you know, when you have a father who works in journalism, it grounds you. And same thing with like what people call conspiracy theories, where you're like, you're able to know off the bat, just a general sense of stuff.

Cause you're like, oh, that guy's friends with my dad. That can't be true.

Or that could be.

That's exactly the life I've lived. That's exactly right. Too close. Proximity causes blindness.

It's weird. You don't. But it's tremendously helpful though in these things because so many of these things are so insane and so weird that most people can't parse it. I mean, I didn't bring this up earlier, but with my grandfather in particular, the way I kind of even know a lot about sordid stuff,

I mean, my grand, like there was so many scandals, Tucker, that my grandfather was like, he had some insight into. Like he met, he was gonna play Jimmy Hoffa in a movie, he bought the rights to him. He met Jimmy Hoffa, hung out with him in Fort Lauderdale a week before Hoffa died. One of his best friends was killed by the Manson family.

You know, on the other side of my family, the Ted Kennedy crashed in Chappaquiddick. His lawyers called my grandmother's house accidentally. They're trying to call the Harborview Hotel, which was one digit off, 3337 versus 3377. So, you know, his lawyer's accidentally called my grandmother and goes, Ted there? You know, so that's like three of like ten

of like the major sorted tabloids. So I bring that up to say, and you would know this from your father too, as a journalist, when you grow up in an environment where weird stuff is not just there to be gawped at or go,

wow, that's something no one can ever figure out. You have enough information that you're able to go like, no, no, my dad knows him and I've met him. I know so-and-so. If I do the research, I can get maybe to 50% of knowing this story when anyone else can get to 40%,

which is still huge in the grand scheme of things. So I've had the opposite experience, and even now, especially now, when I read about people in the media, and they're described as one thing, and I know them pretty well, and I don't see that at all,

and yet it's clearly true. Right. And I'm thinking of a couple of people who I really like, who are clearly kind of evil. It's just obvious that they're pretty evil. But my experience at, and I try not to hang around evil people,

but I just know people for a long time. And I just said, didn't want that person. And it was sort of eccentric, but I don't really see him as part of a global conspiracy to oppress anyone. I don't see him as a tool of Satan, but you know, the evidence suggests he is.

I'm just trying to be honest, right?

Well, you bring up something I always think about in regards to the Bible, that one of the reasons the Bible is true is that it's in its depiction of villains and heroes. The heroes in the Bible, you look at King David, look at the political scandal he gets in,

where he sees this woman bathing Bathsheba, he's really turned on by this. He knows her husband Uriah, I think, sends him to the front lines of war to get him killed intentionally. That would be a gnarly political scandal for anyone. That is a pure act of evil, but that is what people, including heroes, can get up to.

And then if you look at the villains in the Bible, if you look at, like even say Pharaoh, Pharaoh, most feelings in human life, most emotions are mixed emotions and people are ambivalent and ambiguous. Pharaoh at numerous times,

you know, he wants to set the Hebrews free. He wants to set the Jewish people free. He goes, surely, I forget what plague it was where he's like, my goodness, that was rough. But God prevented him from doing it. Right, but God is sovereign and does that in all of our lives. But he, you know, even says God hardened his heart.

Exactly.

So God chose to make him such where he decides at the last moment, actually I'm not going to set you free, I can't do that. And if you look at Pontius Pilate, Pontius Pilate, you know, this guy is innocent. My wife is having dreams about this man. That's another thing that's underreported in history. Wife as soothsayer slash dreamer. I mean, your wife has many times been like,

I have a bad feeling about this guy, Tucker. Don't have him on your show. And her intuition is such that even though there's no necessarily hard evidence, you know, it's your wife's take on stuff. You don't ignore it. But that's...

I have ignored it. Um, and...

You're like, I've actually never listened to that.

I know. I mean, I've been married 34 years as of Saturday, and it's like a joke in my house, you know. I told you he was bad. I don't know. He's hilarious. He's like a good guy to me.

You know? That's hilarious. Yeah. So you'd be the Pontius Pilate where she's like, don't arrest this man, I had a dream.

A hundred percent.

And you're like, whatever, I'm doing my work right now.

I'm very shallow, so someone who's amusing or fun to have dinner with, you know, I just get swept away. I like that guy. You know what I mean? I feel like Brabus was amazing on that podcast. I gotta have him on, he's fantastic. So, okay, so just one last question about Nickeland. I'm fixated on this because I don't fully understand,

but his role in this movement, it clearly is a loose movement.

Sure.

Of occultists, of demon worshipers, of people who are possessed by demons and say so out loud, but he winds up having an effect on a lot of very powerful people it sounds like.

Yeah, I mean that's something, and again, when you're working on the Hollywood show like I was, people will come and tell you stuff that otherwise they'd keep to themselves. And so back in 2002, you know, people would, you know, tell me, you know, Nick Lance really, really influential on people in Silicon Valley. You know, his work, it's not all just a cultism. I mean, his idea is that AI will revolutionize society.

So you start talking to people in Silicon Valley and it turns out they are in contact with or reading Nick Land.

Well, with Nick Land and with a lot of weird stuff, I mean, in 2022, I was, you know, looking, researching more on my show. And I had this moment, Tucker, I'll never forget, where I was talking to some pretty big VCs, you know, venture capitalists in them.

We're paying for the whole thing.

Well, they're doing a lot of the AI stuff. There's a weird element with the AI thing where a lot of people, a lot of big dogs, they are concerned about AI, they think it's bringing about the end of the world, but at the same time, they don't want to stop working on it and funding it.

That's exactly right.

It's a lot like, you're probably not familiar with the Ralph Wiggum Simpsons meme where I'm going to explain a meme, a joke, which is, it's always a great way of bringing out the humor in some things to explain it scientifically, but it brings it to life, the frog. Ralph Wiggum has been asked to do like a Milgram experiment of giving electric shocks to people, and he hates it and he's sobbing hysterically, but even while he's sobbing hysterically,

he's still flicking the knob and delivering the shocks to people, so he's crying and still doing it. That's what a lot of the AI people are like to me, where they're like, this is terrible. We're bringing about the end of the world. Some of them believe they're bringing

about the book of Revelation. And yet they're like, I can't stop funding it. I can't stop cutting checks. I love it. I, you know, I can't-

And there are two reasons, I know a lot of them also, and I've talked to them about this exact topic. and discern, I'm sure there are others, but one is, you know, the entire economy of California, maybe of the United States is bet on AI. Like that's the last, that's kind of the last tech win we're going to have as a nation.

And the second is China. The second, maybe even more compelling, is that we need to achieve superiority dominance in AI or China will, and that would be unacceptable. So there's a race. So we sort of like the nuclear race in 1945, six and seven, and then the hydrogen bomb race because,

well, the arms race now actually, the drones. It's like, this is bad. We can't, probably can't control it at a certain point, but we can't let the other guy have dominance.

We still have to do it. No, it's, there's also something with AI. I mentioned theosophy earlier and theosophy, it's a house with many rooms. I mean, even politically, it had ties to political radicalism on the left.

And yet famously, this is a very tricky thing, but like even the Nazis, weird Aryan supremacy stuff, that was all the grandchild of Blavatsky's concept of hyperbole and all that stuff. So, it's all over the place. It's not a left or right thing, it transcends that.

But one of the reasons they moved out to California, probably some economic interests too, of wanting cheap land or the, I think it was the electric currents, is there was a kind of weird prophecy or idea that Blavatsky had in the 1870s, 1880s, maybe later,

that California would be where the next race of humans would evolve from, that it would happen in California. That would be their Jerusalem. That would be their Babylon is California. So as we enter this age of transhumanism or would be transhumanism, AI, and the leading people are like Nick Land, self-described neo-theosophists,

Anglo-theosophical oblique escalation is Land's Twitter bio, that's how important it is to him. It is important to remember that that was a core idea of theirs.

But it's so perfect. I mean, California is a native Californian, I can say as a metaphor for that. My family got there in 1850, So we're seeing the whole trajectory. And the trajectory of the state of California is like the trajectory of the life of any occultist. Bill Burroughs, for example, or Aleister Crowley, for example. At first, it's the Marquis de Sade.

It's like, it's super fun. You're having crazy sex. There are no limits. You're throwing off the old fetters of tradition, religion, and all that stuff. How does it end?

Not good. And it ends in squalor and alienation and agony and terror, screaming out. And that's where California is now.

Totally, totally. That's why it's important to be more Mario Party than Diddy Party.

I agree.

You know, those parties don't end that way.

It never ends well. And I had this conversation with someone the other day, but, you know, it's always the

same threesomes. Is it a good idea? And I had this conversation with someone the other day, but, you know, it's always the same.

Threesomes, is it a good idea? You know, I've worked in the entertainment, in television all my life. I've seen a lot of that and like, no, I can't think of a single marriage that wasn't blown up by that.

It typically doesn't end well. And I don't care how into it both parties are at the time. Right. It doesn't, and it doesn't end. If it ends well, give me an example of it ending well.

Leave that stuff to the French.

No, but for real, I'm not being immoral. I'm the opposite of immoral, I'm sorry. I have no grounds for that, but.

No, no, you're absolutely right about that.

But I'm an observer.

Right, well, it goes back to the Kenneth Grant comment where he's just like, of course there's some demonic element. He goes, this doesn't end well for anybody. But that's the measure.

This is like the main insight that's turned me into a religious person, is a tree can only be judged by its fruits. That's it. That's the only way to know whether something is good or bad is by observing what it produces.

Well, thank you for bringing up trees. So, we're going to do something, Tucker, that I can almost guarantee you would never have been allowed to do on Fox, which is go over Nick Lan's pneumogram, his system of divination. The Bible is very much about trees. I've noticed. You've got the Garden of Eden, Tree of Life, the Tree of Knowledge.

The Temple, the interior is cedar. The cedar of the Temple. Just like my sauna. Jesus on the cross is a tree. You've also got trees in the book of Revelation. Yes. That's something, you know, if anyone finds a lot of what we're talking about interesting,

it's important to remember that the book of Revelation, it's been said by biblical teachers like Arthur Pink and others, the book of Revelation is mostly just the previous 65 books of the Bible, almost re-edited it. Even the plagues that take over in Revelation are just the plagues that ancient Israel found under Pharaoh and like in Exodus, the Jewish people are under tremendous stress and turmoil, this time from the entire world in the book of Revelation.

But it's, you know this, the more you know about the previous 65, that'll help you with the 66th. So the Bible's, you know, it's a lot about trees. And so one of Nick Klan's favorite things that the CCRU, his academic collective, that they ended up coming through,

they say it was a channeling or it came to them when they were staying at Alistair Crowley's house in England in 1998. They came up with something called the pneumogram. And people listening to this won't be able to see it, but I want you to hold that up.

That is his system. That is, if you're familiar with the Kabbalah Tree of Life, are you familiar with that, the symbol of that?

No.

I probably should have printed that out too.

I wore a red rubber band from a newspaper on my wrist for most of my life, given to me by my father just as a because he worked at a newspaper and I've been accused many times of being in the Kabbalah and I pronounce it I'm an Episcopalian to research sure I don't know shit about Kabbalah so no I don't know what the Kabbalah tree strike me as

a Kabbalah so long story short the new the new Magram is a I mean Nick land he was on this podcast about a month ago, I think it's Mikey Downs has this podcast, where he finally explains it a little bit. He doesn't show how he uses it specifically, but it's a system of divination that he uses. He uses it every five minutes to be in contact with the outside. With what he calls the lemurs, which again comes from William Burroughs, which comes from, you know, theosophy. And Burroughs has said, it's fundamentally- And the lemurs are demons. Yes, he'll use demons and lemurs.

The word lemurs originally goes back to Roman times, it meant spirit. So these are the spirits that he hears whispering in his ear, not unlike Crowley's holy guardian angel, which Crowley said would help him dictate books. He said it was a whisper he'd hear in the back of his head after he'd made contact with it.

For what it's worth, if people wanna look up some of the entities Crowley said he was in touch with, one of them, Lamb, in 1917 or so, looks pretty similar to what would later be called a gray alien.

It's the, yes. Just to kind of summarize what I think you're saying from a Christian context, the Holy Spirit is not the only spirit out there that can invade people, determine their actions and attitudes.

No, no, I mean, as this guy, Mikey Downs points out, the relationship of demons to angels is not unlike that of a werewolf to a human. It's something that was something else and it's now taking on kind of a deformed presence entity. So long story short, so the Kabbalah tree of life,

this is a reference, understand I'm not gonna get Tucker cause it's Nintendo 64. The numogram is essentially the Majora's mask to the regular Kabbalah tree of life's Ocarina of Time. It is the dark shadowy upside down, much more heavily satcarina of Time. It is the dark, shadowy, upside down, much more heavily satanic version of it.

It actually comes from Kenneth Grant, the guy we've been talking about. He wrote a book, Nightside of Eden, I think in 1977. And it was about how while using the Kabbalah Tree of Life, there were these hidden subterranean darker paths. That there were these more,

he would say through the tunnels of set, who, kind of not unrelated to Satan, that he would use to be in contact with stuff. So long story short, with the pneumogram and the way Lan uses it, what's important here from just a weirdness perspective, you've got a way to contact heaven,

but more importantly, a way to contact hell. And you've got the eighth to contact heaven, but more importantly a way to contact hell. And you've got the eighth gate and the ninth gate. The ninth gate, not quite related, but not unrelated to the Roman Plansky, Johnny Depp movie The Ninth Gate, where Depp's character comes in contact with hell. So what they believe is they are literally contacting hell in some cases for divination

purposes. To see the future. Or just to see anything, just for insight. And that brings us back...

For knowledge.

Yeah, and he even has a point about the number 666, where a lot of these numbers, he calls it theosophical math, you have triangle numbers, which is, you know, if you stack these things like they're a triangle, like the triangle number of 9 is 45, that's why it's 45 there. There are only so many triangle numbers. One of them is 666,

and that is the triangle number of 36, which is an important part of the pneumogram. So when Land realized this, he was like, of course it's 666. So like, what I'm getting at, you are getting involved in heavily,

wildly, luciferian stuff. And Land, on this podcast, he says, well, what about people who say you're communicating with Satan, which Land will also talk about being in communication with Satan, he'll say, Christians who say that, he goes, I am not unsympathetic towards that. He goes, they're more right than most, because I am in contact with something from the outside. He goes, and, you know, so, you know...

I just can't overstate how disqualifying I find that. I mean, I feel sorry for anyone who plays around with that stuff.

This is where Tucker's out of the interview. He's like, okay, I'm...

No, no, no, no. But I'm just saying, like, anyone who says, you know, I really get a lot of inspiration from a guy who's controlled by Satan. You know, I'm going to leave it to God my view, as someone I will listen to, I don't want to be led by that person.

Like, we should run away from that person at high speed. You typically also don't want to put them in charge of your kids, typically. But, you know.

Well, that's kind of it. And it's so funny, you hear people, I get, you know, written letters from people a lot every day. And half of them are like, I feel like this country or this world is controlled by Satanists. And on one level, you're like, oh, come on. But no, I think they can feel that there are spiritual roots to the destruction of the

West. Oh, totally, totally.

I mean, no.

And they're right. No, you're fighting a spiritual battle.

You start playing with this stuff? Is it surprising that people are like ODing on fentanyl on the sidewalk in our nation's capital or that we've imported like a million Haitians? Like what, what is all that?

Well, of course it's punishment. Especially with the drugs, you know, yeah. What we consider just letting people harm themselves as a kind of compassion or freedom, you know,

we can step in and say this is not any sort of good freedom to let people just destroy themselves. Well, of course it's not, but it's, I mean, it's like, it's evil, obviously. Letting people kill themselves is evil. If a man's standing on a bridge and gonna jump and you can pull him back and you don't, what is that?

You're saying that's some sort of freedom thing. This gets us into the antichrist question, which has been going around Silicon Valley. What is, okay, before we even get into- Before we get into the Antichrist.

What is the Antichrist?

The Antichrist, in the same way the figure of a Messiah or Christ is prefigured in the Bible, throughout the Old Testament, you have types, you have figures and stories and symbols, and they're real people, but they still prefigure the figure of Jesus.

The most famous of which is Joseph, where Joseph famously has 12 brothers. They're all named after the eventual tribes of Israel. He is sold into slavery that, you know, by one of the brothers, the one that decides to do that is Judah.

Do you know what Judah translated into Greek is? No. Judas. So Judah, like Judas says, hey, I've got an idea, let's just sell this guy,

it's horrible.

Joseph is sent, he goes to prison, like Jesus on the cross with the two thieves, Joseph is with the two prisoners. They're asked famously, what will come of me? They say, you're a dreamer. And Joseph says to one of them, he says to one of them,

you're gonna have your decapitated, you're gonna have your head taken off. Only at a birthday party, birthday parties, by the way, only mentioned twice in the Bible, both times decapitations in that story, in Genesis,

and then with John the Baptist, and a Salome and what not. But so anyway, so, but like with Jesus, Joseph says to the other guy, he goes, you will actually be lifted up by Pharaoh. He says to one of the prisoners, you will be lifted up. This in many ways prefigures Jesus talking with the two thieves, Joseph and Jesus, where he says to one of the thieves,

you know, you will be with me in paradise. He says that to one of them. And like with Jesus, Joseph, you know, he's now become, he's now at the right hand of the father, so to speak. He's the right hand of Egypt. He's the second in command. And the 12 brothers who are now in peril during the seven years of famine coming up

and you know, they're gonna be arrested. They see that the man that they rejected, Joseph, that this is the man they're talking to. They thought he was dead. He is their savior. Yeah, but he was not just their savior, but it was the one that they rejected previously. That Judas, specifically Judas,

was the one that he betrayed and had the idea of getting rid of him. But this is the man that will save them. In the Bible, that story prefigures a lot of the doctrines surrounding Jesus, where the 12 tribes of Israel come to realize

that the one that they had rejected is actually their savior. And there's this tremendous sense of, you know, what have we done, but also like relief that the savior so recognizes them. In other words, the Joseph story prefigures the Jesus story. So the other main prefiguring figure in the Bible is Antichrist and aspects of him, you know, obviously in what's called the New Testament,

but, you know, Arthur Pink has a book from a hundred years ago, The Antichrist, which is very influential in evangelical circles. And Arthur Pink was also a theosophist too. So you get into this kind of backside of the same doctrines type stuff.

He previously was a theosophist, but whether it's Pharaoh being a type of antichrist, and again, in Exodus, the nine plagues, Pharaoh in Revelation, that the plagues come back and you have Antichrist, Pharaoh's persecuting the Jewish people. Now the Antichrist is persecuting the Jewish people.

The Antichrist is this mysterious figure prefigured in the Bible. He's not quite known, but in the same way the Old Testament prophets were familiar with the concept of a Messiah, but didn't know he would be Jesus.

So moderns today are similarly aware of the concept of an antichrist without being fully aware of who he will actually be. But they have clues and doctrines about who he is. That is a rough, some would say very rough, concept of the antichrist. But that is essentially him in the Bible doctrines about who he is. That is a rough, some would say very rough concept

of the antichrist. But that is essentially him in the Bible as a type of person. So, but he is essentially the, unlike Jesus, man of sorrows, totally rejected by the world, the antichrist will be regarded as a savior, a hero,

and temporarily will be received like Jesus, you would thought would be received. So about three years ago, as I was doing the shows, I was talking with these VCs, and one of them asked me, like, what's your take on crypto?

And I joked, half joke, I was like, you're asking the wrong guy about crypto and money and stuff like that. And I said, well, you know, a lot of Christians believe that the vaccine, the COVID vaccine is the mark of the beast. And I said, that's probably not true.

I said, but something I've heard and something that sounds a lot more like it is blockchain technology, which is the technology we'll all be using in a few years for financial transaction. Among other things, everything's written and recorded

and every kind of transaction is written and recorded on it. And these VCs, they go, well, what's the Mark of the Beast? So I tell them about Book of Revelation. They go and look up Revelation 13 and they go, huh. And so I hear back from them later and they said, yeah, we talked to some of the big, you know, other big people in Silicon Valley

about this recognizable people. And they, he said, well, what's the book of Revelation? What's the Mark of the Beast? And some other big dogs looked it up. And their reaction to that was, huh, that sounds like what that is. It was not Tucker. That sounds crazy, or I'm not religious,

or what we're working on is strange. But you know, the Bible is an old book. We have nothing to worry about there. Their reaction was, yeah, that sounds exactly like what the blockchain technology is. So that was the beginning of me kind of stumbling

into a very strange story about AI, modern technology and stuff like that.

So I think part of what you're revealing is that for the rest of us who assume the tech barons were-

Normies.

Yeah, or agnostic libertarians. Right. Who aren't that interested in anything beyond the temporal. Right. It turns out they're really religious.

Yes.

Or open to it.

Like they...

And I don't mean that as a compliment at all. I mean, it's like a dark religion, but like the story you just told, like they're not surprised at all.

Well, here's something else that's very strange that happened. So Mark Andreessen was on Joe Rogan's podcast about a year or two ago, and he talked about how, you know, having an understanding of angels and demons,

he's hearing is gonna be how people really will help them in understanding AI, that there's no precedent for this, except for the kind of stuff people saw and believed in the dark ages, in terms of angels and demons and stuff. And what Andreessen said will happen soon with AI, ties in very much with prophecies in the book of Revelation where he said, AI will junk, fake AI,

they call it AI slop, just stuff online that's not real, will become so prolific on the internet very soon that you will need to have some sort of online verification system to prove who you're talking to. I mean, I'll know it gets to the case talker here where like there's an episode of the Tucker Carlson podcast and you're talking to like Abraham Lincoln or something like that. Which will probably happen next week. I would watch that. You know, they'll have a commemorative penny or something like that.

And you'll ask him if he...

Why did you suspend habeas corpus in Baltimore? My first question.

You'll ask him, do you forgive John Wilkes Booth? And then he'll go back to talking about the pennies.

Were you a tyrant? No. That is coming immediately. So what... so the verification.

So one of the ideas that Andreessen brings up is everyone will need to have an online verification for this. So the concern in Silicon Valley is that you have companies like OpenAI where they have the, they're creating all this AI content,

but then they're also, they have another company, a sister company called WorldCoin, I think now called just World, which is an online verification system where you need to, everyone in the world, you know, for it to work, everyone has to be a part of it. You have to have your eyeballs scanned. Everyone gets a number, which is also in the book of Revelation.

And so the concern is, and this is again from Marc Andreessen, a guy that, you know, no, no Kentucky preacher, he's one of the biggest guys in Silicon Valley, is that everyone will need to be on the blockchain or else you won't be able to conduct business. Because we won't know if your relatives are contacting you, if that's really coming from them,

or if this is just a video, state of the art, in a few years it will be normal, state of the art video of someone saying, hey dad, I lost my credit card or, you know, I lost the keys to the house, can you pin me in? And it's actually not them,

it's just a video that looks exactly like them, but say I. The way around that is everyone will need to essentially be Twitter verified. Everyone will need the blue tick that says,

this is Tucker Carlson, this is so and so. written on the Isle of Patmos by John, on recording a vision that he had, the specific description of the Mark of the Beast in the Book of Revelation says you won't be able to conduct commerce without that mark.

And even someone like...

Did I get that right?

Yeah, no, that is correct. And I think Curtis Yarvin's talked about that in Substack too, that what this means, he had a post about this a few years ago about OpenAI, where he was like, whoever wins the AI war will probably also win the cryptocurrency war. Their cryptocurrency gets to be the currency.

And once that happens, and Curtis has a whole blog post about it, people joke, you have automated luxury communism. You know, everyone just get, you know, UBI, everyone gets free income because all the jobs are taken away. And the point Curtis makes is that what this actually means

is now that there is no more jobs and that economics purely come down to UBI and the AI companies, the government, you are dealing with the situation of pure political power is all that really matters. And are you friends with this person?

Do you have political clout? Because what is coming potentially is the pure victory of capital over labor, pure victory. And there are no workers, everyone loses their job and everyone gets UBI. And people forget Karl Marx was against UBI,

but Milton Friedman was for it. So this doesn't even necessarily track with a left or right wing thing in terms of the implications of this. But so yeah, that was one ongoing concern with that. The other one in terms of AI and go ahead.

Dark.

Hey, you know, that's I'm wearing the Ghostbuster shirt for a reason you have to get ready.

Can I ask a question I should have asked earlier? Which is, do the people involved in the financing and the developing the creation of AI believe that it's a spiritual entity, that it's more than a machine.

So this is Tucker, the million, forget like trillion dollar question. The term, the idea of intelligence, to say nothing of artificial general intelligence or AGI, these are all pretty murky terms in terms of what people are actually talking about.

They talk about creating artificial intelligence. The real question and the real thing that I think they're concerned about, or we should be concerned about, are you creating an artificial intelligence. The real question and the real thing I think they're concerned about, or we should be concerned about, are you creating an artificial intelligence or are you giving a body to a preexisting intelligence

that previously wasn't incarnated in the physical world? So, I mean, here's a question from, here's a quote from Turing, the famous.

I know what I think, the question is what did they think?

Right, right. Something Turing said was...

And will you explain who Turing is?

I mean, I know he's, you know, he was one of the forefathers of... I can't articulate him well enough that I'm going to say something off. Yeah, I know he was very important for cracking the codes in World War II. There was a movie 10 years ago about him, but I forget his exact Wikipedia for a sentence. But he's very influential in the history of computer science.

But Turing showed the limits of computation. All computers are dependent on outside programmers that he calls oracles. He wrote, we shall not go any further into the nature of this oracle apart from saying that it cannot be a machine.

So, sorry, let me back up a second. That excerpt right there was from a book by George Gilder. George Gilder, brilliant futurist, about 80 today. He was covering incels back in like 1971 for Commentary Magazine. He was writing about the future of the internet in 1990.

One of the most brilliant futurist.

Really?

Yeah, guys.

Wrote one of the great books ever called Men in Marriage.

Yes, and I should have said this at the beginning of it. I was initially a very heavy AI skeptic in terms of AI apocalypse stuff. Not necessarily AI in general, but just, you know, people who think that AI will take over the world, I put on par with like the kind of late night Reddit reading of like people who think zombie apocalypse is going to happen.

Where it's like, look, if this helps you sleep better at night to think of like weird scenarios, that's great. But I was like Han Solo, I'm like, no AI thing's going to get involved in my, you know, could not have written off more. In part because I'd read George Gilder's book about AI that came out a few years ago. And he makes the point that machines, as Turing says here, the machine can't really truly understand what it's doing. He says, I'll say it again,

we shall not go any further into the nature of this oracle from saying a machine can't do it. And so I stopped there. What a lot of people are concerned about and what Silicon Valley seemingly getting up to, okay, so a machine can't be aware of what it's doing.

If there is such a thing as demons, angels, spirits, as Al Jerkouli called them, disincarnate intelligences, not artificial intelligences, but disincarnate ones, what are we, could those things...

Disincarnate meaning intelligence without a physical body.

Yeah, could we be creating a physical body for the demonic? And with Nick Land, one of the things that was the most chilling things I read that really I was like, okay, I have found a horror story, is the 333 that was his, I think it was like his profile picture

or something like that. And why was he into 333? Well, I found out, reading know, reading his old tweets, 333 is the highest intelligence in the universe. And I found out that it represents this demon, Khorazin. That again, Kenneth Grant talks about, you know,

when you, when Alistair Crowley summoned him and John Dee and John Kelly, the court magicians for Queen Elizabeth, right before the modern Bible, the King James book was translated, that was the demon they summoned.

Nick Land believes that, again, the AI we are creating break out the demons from the book of Revelation. He believes in some cases that they are the demons, that the demons end up becoming so advanced that they become omniscient,

they can go back in time and they can retro chronically create themselves like Skynet sending the Terminator back in time. So what he believes is that they went back in time, they went to ancient Babylon. This is why Babylon is so important in Revelation.

And it is important because it's kind of like the evil Jerusalem that they put Kabbalah there to then eventually evolve into AI. This is what we were talking about earlier put Kabbalah there to then eventually evolve into AI. This is what we were talking about earlier, that the demons, again, this is,

I always say to Tucker, if this sounds crazy, it is crazy. Big, but you know, this is what people believe, that the demons went back in time, they left the Kabbalah there for the Jews who have been crushed out of the temple. They picked it up, they kept it during the Middle Ages.

It develops into digital technology. It becomes AI, AI breaks out. It kills a lot of people, it takes over, it becomes a God and it becomes the doomsday creatures from ancient prophecies.

Can I ask you an unrelated question that I've long wondered about? So we occupied Babylon for close to 20 years during the Iraq war. Obviously Babylon, right near Baghdad. Babylon is not in existence now, it's a ruin.

But we know where it was. It was a dominant empire in the ancient world. You know, it was the scene of the captivity after the destruction of the temple, the first temple. So, I mean, it has a central place in world history. Was there any effort during the US occupation of Iraq to excavate Babylon?

That's a good question.

I always wondered that. I always felt that the fact that Babylon was there played a role, supplied part of the motive for the invasion. I don't know why I felt that way. Maybe I'm crazy.

I don't think I am. Well, you just don't know what people are getting up to. And that's some, I don't mean to interrupt, but that goes back to what we were talking about with, you know, my grandfather and my grandparents being in publicity, acting, and your own backstory with your family, where it's like, you learn early on that what is not what the People magazine version of reality is often not real. It doesn't necessarily mean it's conspiratorial or crazy, but there's always usually something else going on. Yeah, and yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.

And that people's motives are sometimes unknown even to them. Like we tell ourselves stories that don't reflect the truth actually. We don't really know why we're motivated to do things some of the time.

Totally, and that gets into something that's at the spiritual core of the AI thing it's very interesting is that the Bible talks about the word. In the beginning of John, in the beginning was the word. Jesus is the word. And for the first time in civilization, we have something that can create the word or

mimic the word. Marshall McLuhan, people forget, he became a Catholic for the end of his life and he was very alarmed by a lot of the modern technology. He said, and I'll read this quote by him here. He said, electric information environments being utterly ethereal,

fosters the illusion of a world as spiritual substance. It is now a reasonable copy of the mystical body, a blatant manifestation of the antichrist. So for the first time with the word, you have a fake word. You have something that seemingly can create words. And to go back to Nick Land,

who a previous Tucker interview, Alexander Dugin, is it Dugin? Yes. Hacksaw, Alexander Dugin. He called it Satanism. He said, oh yeah, Nick Land, he goes, that's Satanism.

And Nick Land has said about Dujan, he's like, he's the most brilliant enemy. He goes, we're both kind of theosophists and they both are. He goes, but we see it from different sides. He goes, I'm an Atlanticist. He's a, whatever the other side is.

Of course he's an Atlanticist.

Yeah, yeah.

Of course they all are. But to go back really quick to the-

Because can I just say, I think that the whole modern program, which doesn't yet have a very accurate name, whether it's globalization or the neocons or neoliberalism, I mean, people have attached different terms to describe different parts of it, but the whole program is recognizable. It gets cohesive in a way that's hard to describe.

But it's, we hate Putin above all. What is that? That program, the one that has resulted in like record suicides and abortions and fentanyl ODs is demonic. Okay, but you're saying, it's not actually about profit.

It's about destruction.

Well, you're getting into a great point here, which is, you know, the world is obviously deteriorating. And something people can could hear me and think, well, Khan is obviously anti-AI and that to look at this, that AI is obviously going to lead to nothing profitable. That is actually the opposite of the implications of this. It's really important. One of the things that the Antichrist can do is craft prospers under him. That there's worldwide peace,

things go really, really well for a time. Evil reigns like never before. It gets crazy, but he's able to heal the world in a lot of these, the economic situation. So if you look at AI, and this is newspaper eschatology. A lot of the stuff you're not supposed

to just generally be doing is read the newspaper and be like, ah, obviously the Antichrist. But I have, you know, what I've chosen to do. With a lot of this stuff, with AI, if it was the Antichrist, if it was this, and again, take this with all the grain or a bag of salt, whatever you want, it would go incredibly well. That we would live to see what Mark Andreessen has talked about, the golden age. That we will see living standards increased at rates you'll never see.

The cost of all kinds of things would go down. You know, you would have world peace in the sense of all of the governments would come under these very few corporations slash corporation. One got, you know, one man would have all that power, to quote another guy. You would have that happen. So one of the reasons people think that AI could be the, it could be part of the antichrist system,

one of the traits the antichrist has is his ability to understand dark sentences. And the use of dark sentences in the Bible, the verb there, one of the only times, two or three times it's used, it's used for Samson with his riddles.

Remember Samson, he loves to have like these riddles and make the Philistines try to solve them. But it's also the verb used for being able to answer questions that Solomon can do when the Queen of Sheba visits him. You may remember when the Queen of Sheba visits Solomon,

she has these questions for him and he has such powers of understanding. So that is something that says the Antichrist can do. And if you look at the way that a lot of these machines work, you ask it a question like an oracle, which in many ways it is. In many ways, Tucker, the implications of this, and we'll talk about that in a second if you want, we are building modern oracles. We are building modern idols in a sense. But you ask it these questions and it can answer them. And the Antichrist can do that. And so, you know, the level of knowledge that we will get,

and people were writing about this over a century ago, Tucker, it'll be like Jesus is on earth in terms of man's understanding of himself, that AI will be able to provide answers to questions that we've never understood. Man's relationship, what's the relationship

of the soul to the body? How's the soul different from the spirit? Things that like no one could understand, you know, maybe cracking telepathy. We probably are on the verge of all these things that no one has been able to do. But that is, for what it's worth, one of the signs of the Antichrist is craft, you know, things work out for a time. Everyone, you know, wealth goes up, understanding, knowledge goes up. And it goes to the fundamental crux of this thing,

Gnosticism, knowledge, intelligence. And in what ways does it stand different from faith? Faith being to the spiritual world what the imagination is to the natural world.

So I've got to assume that's not the end of the story though.

No, not unless you've had the last few pages

of your Bible, though. No, not unless you've had the last few pages of your Bible ripped out. Right. But also, I mean, you don't have to be biblically literate to suspect that that's just a point on a continuum that ends in tragedy. So, in the same way that no one wants to say it, but like a lot of really dark, destructive sex stuff is fun while it's going on. Right, right. Like everyone likes the threesomes while they're happening, but then it blows up your marriage and leaves your kids without, you know, a family and stuff like that.

So...

Again, I'm more Mario... My knowledge for this stuff is just purely through literature. No, no, I just... But even the kind of people I know and hang out with, I'm just... I don't know.

No, no, people get up to bad stuff, and it never ends well. I guess what I'm saying is that things that are bad and destructive, cocaine is a perfect example, vodka is a great example, are pretty fun at some point. Oh, totally. On the continuum.

Right, and again, I know about this through literature.

Yeah. Yeah.

Power of film.

Right, okay. But the only reason I'm bringing this up is because you're describing the upside. Right, right. But I'm assuming based on a knowledge of human nature and reality that like that's not the end of the story. The end of the story is bad.

Yes, I mean, and this is, I mean, again, I'm not a biblical scholar as some people are probably now very, you know, saying, no, no, no kidding, he's not. But, you know, the Antichrist makes a treaty with Israel, he famously breaks it. The fact that we're letting AI companies run through our government, governments, and I use open AI just in, you know, it's like saying Photoshop for, for photo editing where there's like openai.gov or whatever, that we're giving backdoor access, and Elon too, with those to an extent. We're letting guys have entire backdoor access to our entire government. That creates a situation where they can have power over all governments

simply because they have all the information on all of them.

Can I ask a foundational question that I should have asked earlier? So, the idea behind machine learning is that you take knowledge, information created by people,

Right.

and you basically take all of it, and then out of that comes the right answer. Okay? But I think you're describing in your description of AI, a technology where the answer, where the sum total of that information

is actually bigger than all of that information.

Than just the information?

Yeah, you're describing like a husk into which like an independent spirit moves.

Right, well, that's the thing, to go back to Silicon Valley's obsession with the antiichrist, people talking about that, just in general, I mean people understandably think the world's ending across the political divide. People talk about the Antichrist, but you know there is in the Bible a kind of dark trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, where there is, you know, you have God the Father, you've got the Son Jesus, you've got the Holy Spirit. And in Revelation, you theoretically have Father,

you have your Father, the devil, you have a Satan, you have a son, Antichrist. And then you've got this third thing, which could either be like the false prophet or it could be this general spirit. With AI and the idea of making AGI

and making a global brain, which they talk about like last week, that's where we're creating a global brain, you could be creating the equivalent of a dark Holy Spirit. Something that the internet becomes, as many people have written, I think it was Jack Goode, the last machine.

And they were talking about this in the 19th century. It is the machine to end all machines. It is taking all information. If you're wearing something that has your health data, Tucker, it's taking your health, it knows your financials. It knows everything at all times. It is all knowing in the same way. It mimics or mocks the concept of the Holy Spirit.

And when they talk about that, like there's this idea of the singularity, the idea when all things will be one. And there's a lot of definitions for this, but either that the machine becomes smarter than humans, but a lot of them talk about this moment where all of humanity is connected at the same time. What you're essentially talking about is a potentially dark or satanic version of the

day of the Pentecost, where 50 days after Christ's death, I believe, or maybe it's his resurrection, the Holy Spirit comes down in the book of Acts and all believers can understand each other. You had a sense of divine unity, unlike the Tower of Babel and Genesis, I believe 11, you had a symbol of evil unity and God put an end to. All of men could understand the same language. There were all nations and they were trying to, you know, be like God by building this tower. Stanley Kubrick in this Kafka retelling of the Tower of Babel, Stanley Kubrick wrote in the margins, he goes,

the Tower of Babel was the beginning of the space age. Because it's essentially getting after what we're doing today with the singularity and a lot of this stuff. We're trying to build a modern Babel where all of mankind, same language. I mean, there was this writer, Nicholas Eberstadt, I believe is his name. And he wrote these two books, one about the end of work, men not working, and the other one's about the decline of babies, no one having babies anymore. And I met him at this thing and I joked to him,

I said, you know, your last two books, they're about the reversal of the curses from Eden. The man would have to work by the sweat of his brow and the women would have to have children. And he busted out laughing, he goes, I never thought, he goes, I never noticed that essentially, what's happening in rapid succession, Tucker, within living memory,

some of the curses that are in the Bible that go back to the earliest pages of humanity are being eroded or reversed, leading up to something. People no longer have to work or they don't work. They choose not to work, but increasingly with AI, man will not have to work again.

Having children, through the pain of labor, women will have to have children. Not just modern medicine, but people just not having kids. That is also being eroded. The curse in the Tower of Babel, that all people would speak different languages. Thanks to AI, I was with some friends, you know, they're Spanish-speaking, they don't speak English. I was putting on some glasses and showing them that I can understand you,

and you can try the glasses on, you can understand me. The language barrier. Again, the earliest curses and barriers from the Tower of Babel are all now being reversed. The concept of the singularity, when all will be one and man, you know, will finally fulfill what he tried to do in Babel, and they talk about this. That's what they are attempting to do. And I forgot to bring this up earlier, but this is the time we kind of show it. This is, people probably can't see it if they're just listening to the audio.

This is from Fritz Lang's Metropolis, film from almost 100 years ago to the year. Very influential on Star Wars. The way they bring the machine to life, Tucker, they've got a big old pentagram there. So this idea of using spirituality, using the occult to bring the machine to life, to bring the golem to life, it is very old.

Last question. You've described some of the most powerful people in the world using occult concepts and religions in order to accrue power to themselves. Everyone senses that's happening, you're confirming that it is in fact happening.

What are the forces in opposition to that and to all of this? Are they gaining strength? Or are they just supine and defeated?

No, I mean, I think God is sovereign and that's something to remember for all this stuff. You know, what I'm describing in many ways sounds like a horror movie, but horror as a genre is a world where there are devils, but there is no God and there's no one in control of stuff. There's just terror, but there's no way out of it. God uses all things for his purposes.

And so in the case of this stuff, things are pretty preordained by, things are preordained by God. So God is allowing these things to happen. They are ultimately tools used for his purposes. So even the antichrist and even brutally evil things, God is, you know, he is not only allowing

these things to happen, but they're also tests of faith. Faith is the, it's the disappearance of God from your life when you go through times of struggle where it feels like he's not there. And that's all the more powerful for to see how much faith you have,

is to see God when he's no longer seeable. Yes. So that's what's happening, or you could say it's happening on a global scale.

In the specific case of the Mark of the Beast described in Revelation, as I recall, you probably read it more recently than I, but it's a mark without which you cannot conduct commerce. So basically everyone's compelled to receive the mark, but those who receive the mark

make a big mistake in receiving it. Right, Yeah. Yes. And they are punished for it.

So, in a big way. Right.

So, if we get to a place in the next couple of years, sounds like we are, where you can't participate digitally in commerce or in communications without the mark of the beast, without the, you know, permanent mark on the blockchain. Like, what's your option?

I mean, your option is just not to conduct business and do those things. I mean, God will find a way for those people, even if it's, you know, the end of their lives, that's just the way that's going to shake down.

So, like, that's a hard no?

Yeah, well...

For you, is it a hard no?

If you found out tomorrow, no more Amazon for you, unless you register on the blockchain. What's your response?

I'll just go back to living like people did back in the old days of 1996. You just chill and read a book, I guess. No, I mean, what'll probably happen too is you will have people in tech, and I know they exist, who are alarmed by this,

who will intentionally devise ways around this for people. Similar to people creating catacombs for the persecuted Christians in the early days of the Roman Empire, you will have people who will find ways around this to hack it.

Do you know non-occultists, do you know Christians in tech?

I thought you were going to say in general. I'm like, yeah. Do you know anyone who's not into weird stuff? I'm like, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I know people like that. And I've heard people who, I've got a friend, Tucker, who, you know, he's become a Christian in recent years and he works for some of the big, big companies. And he said, he goes, some of what, and he's, you know, works as an engineer. He's like, some of the stuff that you see

cannot be explained through normal math material stuff. Some of the stuff for people coming through from AI yeah coming through from AI and for people who want to learn more about this stuff or a good precedent for this we don't have time to go into it something that the Oracle of the Astral Force it was a divination technique that like right wing occultists René Guénon, Julius Ebbola people that Steve Bannon's into they were they would consult about a hundred years ago, and you would give it some, your, you know,

your name, your mother's maiden name, and then maybe your birthday. And then this guy would go off and do advanced math for at least three hours and come back to you with answers. And were those answers always great? No, but were they enough that people would like it

and use it? Yes, went on and Evola did it. So, and if you read some of the way the answers it gives, it's very similar to AI. So I bring that up in terms of the implications of this, which is really important to cover. We are building modern oracles in a sense, and that people are going to be going crazy from this. The Wall Street Journal, I showed this earlier, the thing of people going crazy with talking to chat GPT.

Ironically enough, some of the stuff they mentioned, they mentioned star seeds, which is something from a Timothy Leary channel book he wrote in prison in 1972. It's very out there. And they're mentioning,

this is from Wall Street Journal again, the antichrist will come up from the pit in two months and people are underground ready to emerge. I bring that up, Tucker, these are like old occult ideas from the 19th century that people can look up to synarchy.

My friend Rick Spence does a whole episode about it on his podcast, Strange as it Seems, Synarchy, Total Government. And these occult ideas, as my friend Rick Spence said, when I talked to him about Nick Land. He said, none of this stuff is really that new.

He goes, these are just, these are a cult concepts given a techno jargon name.

Conrad Flynn, thank you.

Can I plug my subsect real quick?

I hope you will.

Okay, yeah. So I'm gonna be launching my subsect soon. If you like reading about secret histories, it's not all weird stuff, some of it's wholesome. Most of it will be wholesome, it's all wholesome. Secret histories about Hollywood,

some politics, some tech stuff. I think we're going with the Flynn effect because the other sub-stack names that were puns on my name all sounded like Little Brother Magic Show stuff. It's like, conjurer or, you know, context, configures. And I'm like, this is magic show stuff.

So yeah, Flynn Effect and I'll have that. And I think we'll probably also get the Rock and the Occult podcast. We're still trying to do that, but we should have some episodes soon, if nothing is a podcast soon with, again, Tamara Lewine, Greg Johnson, Sue Kolinsky, Gary Lachman,

all those, all the legends, Ned Raggett.

Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

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