TRAFIQUANT DE DR*GUE INTERNATIONAL : APRÈS 22 ANS DE PRISON, IL RACONTE (FUSILLADES, ARRESTATION…)

Hello everyone and welcome to Legends Today our guest is called Yannick Deland He was an international drug trafficker He just got out of prison for 22 years

There are guys I know, I bought them 3 kilos of cocaine They are hidden in the car

3 kilos of cocaine in France is a lot

Very clearly, it's several years in prison At one point, my ex tells me Shit, there are the gendarmes who are controlling the Red Light District I call them, I apologize and I meet up with the city people at the Ibis Hotel but I'll never get there on time with the bottle-shedding. And the police officer says, don't move, we'll give you the road. And there's a police officer, a biker, who gets in front of us, another one behind, I go back to the car, and they accompany us to the Ibis Hotel.

Have you ever thought of shooting someone?

Yes.

Have you ever seen someone get shot? No. called Murmur, to come and help, and to help with the re-insertion, and above all to make people want to do other things than illegal things, so as not to go to jail. He will tell us about his entire journey. He proposed that I really come, to be able to ask him all the possible questions that we ask ourselves about what international drug trafficking is,

how it is that it goes through all kinds of drugs, how it crosses the borders between Spain, France, Belgium? You'll see the routes. Are there any accounting rules he was able to follow? Do some friends who have been hit by bullets sometimes shoot each other to tell us everything he saw inside? Does it look like a movie or not? It's an exceptional show that he offers us to do today. In any case, he sent us an email, don't hesitate to do the same,

contact.legendegroup.fr Just before we start, subscribe to our YouTube channel if you want, friends, in 30 seconds, it really helps us, the more numerous you are,

the more exceptional guests we can have, like Yannick Deslandes today. And then on the podcasts, on Spotify, Deezer, platforms, when you're on the road, you can put it in the car, on a trip, or in sport. Thank you for being here. Before we start, I remind you that we're going on tour.

It's called Le Légende Tour, with six guests who have marked the channel. We said to ourselves, with the whole team, that we were going to book rooms to do the biggest podcast with 120,000 of you who will come on all dates. There are 18 dates in total, we go twice to the Adidas Arena in Paris, we also go to Forêt National twice, I give you all the dates, it's in October and November 2026,

we leave with guests who have marked the channel, exceptional guests, there will be no way to capture, you will not have the possibility to film inside the room, no video. Everything that will happen in the room will remain in the room. You will hear anecdotes, exceptional confidences. Each guest will tell three things that he has never told. And there will be artists who will be added to each date.

Franck Dubosc on some, Ragnar Abrami, the violinist, who will be with us, Sarah Schwab who does some exceptional imitations, Maxime Gasteuil as a comedian, Michael Younes, I think Ava Dame will join us on some dates. So here are all the dates, you can go and see them on legend-tour with your kids, your parents. You can really come as a family, we'll learn a lot. It's going to change, going to concerts, it's really a show. There will be surprises and a lot of interesting things to hear. Anyway, I can't wait to see you there. And let's go with Yannick Delande, who is an international drug dealer,

who was an international drug dealer on Legende, who will tell us about Legend. Welcome Yannick, thank you for telling us about your story. What year did you get out of prison? You said you were in prison for 22 years. I got out in 2019, in October. In October, you released a book, we'll talk about it. You also participate in an association called Murmur.

Did you create the association Murmur? I'm the founder of the association. The founder, and you help detainees to reintegrate. You're going to tell us about your journey. You've lived a lot of things, you're going to tell us. You have a lot of regrets about your life.

How did you end up here, in the show?

Well, quite simply, because on social media, I'm in contact with different people who have been on your show. And so there are always feedback on what they did. Ah yes, you see little capsules, little extracts. Exactly, so I came upon the capsules and while discovering their interviews, I thought to myself, this is a great show

and I would like to participate in it. And on the other hand, when I arrived today in your studios, I was very surprised by the team you have. So a team of 38 people, honestly, I was expecting 7, 8, 10 people.

So I was quite impressed. Oh, that's true. Now there are almost 40 people in the team. You see, it's going fast. There are already 6 journalists. In fact, it doesn't seem like it, but there are people in the control room,

there are people for makeup, there are people everywhere.

And a lot of work in advance. And a lot of work.

You told me there are authors who prepare the show, almost 8 today. There are 55 sheets, to be precise, to give a little number on people. It's interesting too, but it's true that we never say it. It's not your real name, Yannick, nor your name of the lands, by the way. It was a name you used in a hurry, I think.

Exactly. In fact, it's an identity I had on my false papers when I was in Spain. I was arrested for that name. It's a pseudonym I use, my pseudonym for an intervener and an author.

Why didn't you take your real name?

Is there a particular reason? At first, when I wrote my autobiography, I put my real name because I have nothing to hide. I assume everything. After sending my autobiography to my editor, my wife told me,

you're not going to put your name on it, because her family doesn't know about my past. Your wife's family? Yes, my wife's family, absolutely. And they're abroad, so she told me, you just have to put your real name on the internet,

and they'll see you're a drug dealer, 22 years in prison, it's just not possible. You have to make sure. It's not possible, divorce guaranteed It's Sunday afternoon, the chicken doesn't taste the same You eat with your family and they'll say You didn't tell us anything Especially in the beginning I think that today, we've been together for 6 years

So even if they discovered my past, they know the man I am today So it would be much better But yeah, I still respected their request We were talking about isolation The attempts to escape suicide You had a lot of things.

You were betrayed by people from your family, by friends, by the middle class. I don't know how you call that, between you, the middle class, you say? I said I was betrayed by my pseudo-associates and my pseudo-friends.

You say you're an illegal trader, I saw it in a book. Do you consider yourself as one? Aren't you proud of what you do? Of what you've done?

You've made mistakes and you take full responsibility for them? Obviously I'm not here to promote the trade which obviously shouldn't even exist because it kills lives and it breaks many others. Obviously I'm not proud of having had this path but it's this path that makes me the man I am today

Why do I say I was a legal trader? Simply because today there are legal businesses I'm talking about tobacco, I'm talking about alcohol which kills a lot of lives and yet, when we talk about it, it's not a big deal First cause of death, tobacco in France

and the second cause for alcohol Absolutely So yes, what I did It's legal, you're right The first cause of death is tobacco in France The first and second cause for alcohol Absolutely It's legal, you're right It's legal, and that's what I often say because there are people who comment on social media

and say that I'm selling myself to death but as I say, if tomorrow your nephew is a buralist you would shake his hand and you would be very happy with what he has become yet it would create a lot more deaths than what I did It doesn't justify what I did, we agree on that. But it's also a reality, so it was my journey, but we'll explain it anyway.

Did you grow up in Barbès? Were you born in Paris?

I was born in Paris, in the 18th district, at the hospital of the Rue Boisière. In Montmartre, for those who don't know Paris, it's in Montmartre, the 18th district. Exactly. And so I grew up in this neighborhood of Barbès, which is also called the Goutte d'Or neighborhood, in the 18th arrondissement of Paris. A neighborhood that is said to be popular, to do good.

Which is very different from Montmartre, for once.

For once, yes.

It's very expensive, on some streets and suddenly you find yourself in the Goutte d'Or and it's not at all the same rent price. It's impressive because in Paris, the rents can be divided by two on two streets and it's much more popular in the Goutte d'Or.

Absolutely. The first apartment we had after I was born was a small studio, one room, there was no hot water. How many people were there in the family? Six.

Six? We were 6, we all slept in the same room, we washed in a tub, we had to heat the water before and then when my parents moved, we only had a 2-room apartment, which is not bigger than 2 cells together, 2 prison cells and there was still no hot water, there was no bathroom, the toilets were on the floor, we were 4 children we slept on the floor, except my father who had a little bed next to him but otherwise, the 4 children and my mother slept in the bedroom, even on the floor. How does cohabitation with siblings work? Very complicated. Very complicated because my mother worked 15 hours a day,

so she had 5 jobs, so she came home a bit late at night, around 8pm. What did your parents do? My mother was a housewife, she was illiterate, she couldn't read or write, she had to work up to 5 jobs a day, she worked 15 hours a day. She went to her first job at 5 in the morning, and usually when she came home, it was around 8.

My father was a pastry chef, but he had two main flaws, he was an alcoholic and violent. And often, after work, he was at the bistro all night so sometimes I was the one who went to get him we went to get him to bring him home

but in any case when he came back he was completely devastated and so at home we found my sister who was 3 years older than me my brother who was 3 years younger than me and the youngest who was 4 years younger than me

so we found ourselves left to ourselves. So it often went in battle. Unfortunately, sometimes my mother would come home in the evening, there was food on the walls, on the ceiling, we would send that, and sometimes it went even further.

I remember once, I had jumped on my brother's head with a big ferrari key, it got stuck in his skull, he fell on the TV, he opened both his lips and his tongue. Well, it was really... In fact, we were already living in violence, so I think we didn't know how to live otherwise, and even between us, there was a form of violence that had been established.

You say, you write in the book, at 6 years old, I sometimes hang around in the neighborhood until 10 pm. At 6 years old. Even more. I sometimes hang around the neighborhood until 10pm. 6 years. 6 years is not old. It's CP. Sometimes midnight to only go home once, the house is quiet and the father is asleep.

Page 14, you say that. You will be placed in the home. To tell how complicated your life was, we don't realize it, but there. How will you end up in the home? You will ask, you will go to the police,

how will you end up in the home, you'll ask, you'll go to the police, how will you end up in the home?

Well, what happened is that, the oldest I remember is my 6 years old, I have very few memories before, and what happened is that, every time, it was always the same story with my father, so I started to hang out more and more later, my school was 20 meters from the house, and right next to it there was a square, and in the evening evening all the kids from the neighborhood would meet in the square so we would go over the fence and we would meet there and so from the age of 6 I started to join them because I knew that my father was not going to be home late

I knew that it was going to be the same violence so to escape a little bit of this paternal storm I started to stay more and more with the kids and well I was considered a bit like the little mascot so we all knew each other, well, everybody knew me and very quickly I started meeting, without knowing, the local dealers even the big 6 of the neighborhood that were in the bars

and I was always welcomed, so it's always come on, what do you want to eat? So I had, finally, it was a bit like a pseudo-family I found a little bit a climate that I didn't have at home so I started to hang out more and more late and sometimes until midnight When I came home I was being killed by my mother

Anyway, my father was sleeping, he was drunk and we went to the bedroom and we slept But since it was late in the morning when I went to school I hadn't finished my night So I went to the back of the classroom and I always had my teacher who brought me a little pillow, so I lay down on the floor

and I slept I was sleeping. Because they saw you were dead. Yes, they knew I was dead, they knew the family atmosphere at home. And so, after two years, around the age of eight, there was a report to the child judge, from the school. The teacher said there was a problem? Yes. Well, everyone knew after school, it was really in the neighborhood. The four children, with your brothers and sisters, was sisters like that? No, because they didn't have that violence

because it was really me who was interposed with my father. My brother was different, he was under the influence of birth control so he went to a specialized school and only came home on the weekend. So he didn't hear the same things, so obviously there wasn't the same provocation. And my sisters were girls, so they were a little more spared. So at the age of 8, I have the judge for children who summons me with my mother and he tells my mother, we can't continue like this, at some point your son needs to be able to follow a school, we need to get him out of all this and he tells her, I found a Greek home in the Parisian suburbs

A Greek home? Greek, because my mother is of Greek origin There are Greek homes? Yes, it was owned by two Orthodox priests It wasn't necessarily good. So he told my mother that it would allow him to have a degree, but at the same time it would also allow him to learn his mother tongue.

So my mother gave her consent, except that I took it very badly because they didn't ask me for my opinion. And I had the impression that I was punished for things that didn't belong to me. So as soon as I arrived in this home, clearly, from the first week, I fled. What was it? Was it the DAS?

It was part of it, it's a bit like the DAS. It was not the DAS, but it was a bit the same thing. You were 200 young people in this house? That's what I was going to say. We were 200 residents, boys and girls. It was held by two Orthodox priests, and then there were educators, so a large building with shared rooms there was a place where they had their Orthodox mass every weekend

there were classrooms for Greek classes but then the doors were closed at night the exterior doors, but we go through a window, that's it, we're out

there's no mirador, it's not a prison, you've only known both, it's not the same thing

no, not at all but on the contrary, I'm on my first break, so my mother at some point reminds them, saying, he's at home, the weekend is going to end, you put him back in the car to bring him back there with the other students. And arriving there, the next day I'm received in the directors' office, the two directors, two priests and I will always remember there was one who had a stick that was as big as him he always used it a bit like a cane but it was really at the height of his head

and to make me understand he took the stick in both hands and he smashed me so I had bruises everywhere and every time I was taken back it was about the same story so I left home because of paternal violence

I found it, even worse than what I had at home Almost worse Then you go to Limoges, you're transferred to a home that's more for young delinquents There are more people who did stupid things before, how does that work? It's the same, it's a factory to meet other guys to do other things

Yeah, so I stay a year in the first house, well, the second one. Then I moved to a house next to Limoges, in a house called the Old College, which still exists today, and in which there are a lot of young delinquents. A little more confirmed delinquents. I find myself in a room, there are four of us, the other three had all committed acts of delinquency, and very quickly we start to look for where we can get some money, what we can do

So we all film shit together And then we go out, I think it's the second day I arrived We break a car because we saw that there was a wallet hanging So we take what we can We go back to our room Then we find a little chain in gold, a few bullshit, and the rest we throw it over the window on the roof of our room, on the roof above the house.

And we leave. And in the same week, we leave at 4, we say to ourselves, come on, we're going to get out of here, we're not going to stay in this house with these guys who are driving us crazy. So we go to 4th, we steal a first car, there is one who is destined to drive us, so he takes one, he makes a detour, he comes back to get the second, etc. And there we find a second car, so we get on both bikes, then we steal a third, and then we stole the third, the guy noticed it, he took the car, they chased us, twoabar We had to leave our bikes, go in the middle of the night in the fields, we had mud all the way there

We didn't even know where we were going And then we arrive at a small village And when we arrive in this small village we see a car, a kind of 4-wheeled van that is started, there are the keys on it And we thought, let's go, we'll all go crazy

if there's anyone us knew how to drive We left with this van And we found a small dirt road We parked somewhere We said to ourselves, we'll try to sleep in the back And tomorrow we'll see what we do So we go to the back And there, bingo, Alibaba's cave

It was the van of a baker So inside there's a lot of hot Viennese food There's a lot of chocolate We were all four lying behind Eating, eating, and we ended up falling asleep like that.

And in the morning, we were woken up by the police. So the police station, we were brought back to the house, and the same evening, I left, I met a girl who lives nearby and when I get back to the house, I'm told that the police is looking for me I don't go back, I go to the girl's house

I spend the night there and the next day...

You're 15 now

I'm 14, so the next day I go back to Paris and finally, the police had done an investigation they had accused us, well, when done an investigation, they had blamed us, well, as far as I was concerned, they had 8 guilty bosses, because they had found the papers from the wallet just above our rooms, so they knew it was us, that the others had recognized the case, and so there were 8 guilty bosses. And so I see the judge again for a month,

and he tells me, OK, there's nothing to do with you, so I'll let you go home But know one thing, if you keep on like this, when you're 16, you'll go to jail So I'm going home So after going home, my parents had already split up My mother, with her savings, had bought a small studio where my father had settled And my mother had met a new person with whom she had started a sentimental relationship, one of our neighbors. Except that this neighbor, well, in fact, he had two main flaws.

He was an alcoholic and he was violent. One night, I'm at my mother's, so I hear them arguing in the room. My older sister is coming in and I say, here they are again, taking each're still fighting on the other side, so my sister, who also had hot blood, she knocked on the door, he came out, and started insulting her,

and while he was leaving, he punched her, and broke her nose. And then he closed the door, he went down the stairs, he went home, he hid at his place. And so we were,

my mother, my sister's friends, one of them passes by, stops, starts to swear at the guy, and says, come on, get down, I'll show you what's the difference between hitting a woman and hitting a man. Then there's a second one, well, at some point we end up, we're about thirty downstairs. And that's when I realize that this pseudo-family is still there. It's all the friends of my big sister's neighborhood, men and women. We still end up going home. And in the morning, 5 a.m., my mother wakes me up and says,

can you accompany me to work? I think he drank all night and will wait for me on the way. So obviously I accompany her. And indeed, a few hundred meters further, he was waiting for her, completely drunk So he started to verbally attack my mother I got in between them

And at some point he started to slap me And I turned my head back So I managed to dodge A few minutes later it stopped We started walking with my mother She looked at me and said

You've got blood there And it wasn't a slap he wanted to give me He had a knife in his hands That I hadn't seen And it just scratched me I still have a scar here it was 10 cm long

if I hadn't moved my head, I wouldn't be here and luckily it wasn't deep, it was only 2 mm deep so... my mother filed a complaint I was 15 at the time and...

he was incarcerated which my mother reproached me a lot afterwards, because she loved him anyway. And she reproached me for this loneliness.

He still tried to kill his son. It's amazing that he was on the verge of...

She didn't hit the gravity of the gesture. What she reproached me for was her suffering, in the sense that she thought it could have been different Maybe if I hadn't been there... She asked me to be there, but I provoked her to get her to blame me She blamed me, it's her suffering because she felt alone, because she loved him

So, complicated family hero, complicated childhood I wrote in the book that between the age of 14 and 15 it's not very precise, you discover heroin. And you're not going to discover heroin to sell it, you're going to consume it.

You're going to fall into drugs before selling it.

Yeah.

Well, what happened is that at that moment I decided to leave my mother's house. So I end up with this whole gang of friends from my older sister's neighborhood. And there was especially a childhood friend of my older sister's friends. And there was a childhood friend of my older sister that I knew very well, because we had already done a lot of bullshit together. I come to her house and she is in a relationship. And when I come to her house, she has a small studio in the 18th arrondissement.

And there are about thirty young people, older than me, but thirty young people who were there. So I have 14 years past. And the others, the youngest 17 years old and the oldest 32 years old. So we're all sitting in a circle in the room, we're sitting a little everywhere, we're all smoking cannabis, there was a little bit of everything in terms of cannabis.

And at one point I see them come out a record, 33 rounds, the big records of the time, the vinyls, and they put a kind of white powder on it I see them, they make lines and I see them go from hand to hand they are all sniffing and our childhood friend says to everyone the man over there, there is no one who gives him

it's out of the question so I feel punished again I don't think it's fair but I don't know what it is I don't even know what the drug is I have no idea, because at the time we didn't talk about it on TV we didn't talk about it in schools

It's taken as cocaine

Yeah

So it's sniffed

It's sniffed, it's shot I thought it was with a stinger in the eye We can do both But at the time, everyone was sniffing And at the time, I'm not heard anymore. And there are 30 people, so we might not hear me.

And when they all sniffed, I saw that the speech was freeing itself. I see them all talking, talking, talking, completely uninhibited. I think it's a miracle. Then we go out, it's still winter, we crossed all of Paris, several times and in all directions I run behind them, I'm tired, and I see them, they're in a hurry

And I have my big jacket, I'm frozen, they're all in t-shirts, they're hot It's not normal, yeah But I tell myself, their stuff is a miracle product It removes fatigue, it disinhibits And it keeps you warm You don't see the side effects at all? I don't know them, I don't guess them

So for a few days I have a ban on touching that Anyway, no one can give me And a few days pass And I have some money to go buy shit And I'm with two friends from the band

Who accompany me And at one point, one of them told me we should go buy our stuff but we're short on money, if you want instead of buying shit, put your money with us we'll make you shoot a little thing

I said yes, ok, that's cool and so they made my first thing but it was so insignificant I didn't feel anything, it made me want to vomit as is often the case when you consume heroin at the beginning. But after that moment, I just wanted to try again.

I really want to discover, I want to feel what they felt when I saw them. And so, a while later, there's a guy who goes to drop heroin at their place. So a drug dealer who becomes a drug dealer very, very quickly. And very quickly, he stores 3 times 2 kilos of heroin per week at home So it's in a metal box, chained, but they have double the key So we have access, and we have the will to consume

So for a little over a year, we all consumed at will, day and night But we were so unwilling that not once did I discover that we could be in need. I didn't know because we were constantly consuming, we were all going there, well I lived at their place.

How old were you then?

It started at the age of 14 until the age of 16. And you take it every day? We took it every day, really every day, because when he came, he put his block, his 2kg rock, he would break it with a hammer, so it would go in all directions. He would cut it, he would make his packages, 100g, 200g, 500g, he would put everything back in the metal box. And he would ask us to clean what he had left. And so, there were rocks everywhere, so we would get them back. In the book, at that time, you tell us what it does to you but it quickly turns into a real nightmare

an indescribable nightmare, you say what do you feel at the beginning and what do you feel afterwards? Fred, what does it do to you when you take it the first time

or when you really take a lot of it?

Well, actually... For those who never, you see, because it's... don't do it, it's important to have someone who did the bullshit so you can explain it. What does it give you at the beginning and after? What it gives me at the beginning is that you have to understand that

at that time, just a kid who was completely destroyed from the inside a lot of suffering on which I don't put a word, that I don't understand I never had therapy, I don't know

All I know is that I'm not well in my skin, I wonder what I'm doing on Earth, I haven't found my place. I often remember, I said to myself, if there is someone who exists up there, you must have made a mistake for me because I can't find my place. In the band, I'm the last one, so I'm still the little kid who is put aside a little. In the family, I don't even talk about it. In the homes, it was not better. So I don't have any education. I left school when I was 14. I don't have a job.

I only have one memory. It's that at school, when we asked the kids, what would you like to do later? They all had one, two, three jobs to offer. I had no idea. When we asked a sentence, I was unable to remember a word.

So I really believed myself. And besides, I heard so much from my father, but not only, that I was stupid, that I would never do anything in life, that I was an incapable. At one point, I ended up believing it.

So I couldn't find my place on earth. And when I took this product, I didn't feel it anymore, it prevented me from feeling this pain that was in me. I had the impression that it was a bit like putting a shell on myself that prevented me from feeling. It really made a wall between me and my feeling. It was a bit like... when I closed my eyes, it was a bit like I was going into a dream.

My life was a nightmare, and there, by closing my eyes, after taking the product, I was in a dream. You felt good. I felt good. As if you were a little repaired. Because I didn't know these steps in my natural daily life. Except that when this bulge stopped, we used what was left, and we discovered the lack

and when we discovered the lack, it was hell because we were in pain, we were frozen to the bones like when you have the flu, you're cold, you're frozen much more than the flu, it's a flu times 20, times 30 you throw up, you... Really, this pain was indescribable.

The first time I stopped, you have to know that I've experienced the shoot, the intravenous, one day I'm disappointed because some friends of mine, well, some consumers like me, had used stuff I I stole on a robbery They sold, they bought products

For them, I arrive in Manque and they tell me No, no, it was a robbery So I knew it was a first betrayal I had had So I walk from the port of Bagnolet to Barbès In the middle of winter, in Manque I arrive at my mother's, I wake everyone up at her house

So my mother wakes up, my little sister and my older sister. And for the first time I'm going to tell them, I tell them, here it is, I've been drugging myself for two years, I'm taking something called heroin, I started to get high, I won't be able to get out of it without you. So my older sister, her reaction was a very bad reaction, she told me, you disgust me, we're going to take care of you.

So she made a place for me in the bedroom, I lay down in the bedroom, even on the floor, always.

So they tried to cover me as much as possible, despite that, I was frozen anyway. And at the same time, I was sweating, I was sweating, and it was my little sister who... who was sponsoring me. She put a basin next to me because I kept vomiting. With my mother, when she was there, they accompanied me to the toilet so that I could do my needs. They tried to wash me with the toilet gloves. How long was this period of lack? There are several phases in the decay.

So it's not a day or two, I mean, it's long. The first phase, really, where you vomit, where you twist in all directions, where you can't sleep, it lasted a good week. And then, this cold that really takes you to the bones, which is also very atrocious, it lasts a good month before you can gradually recover. It's very long. You will then go on to rob, to pay your pension, you said. Was it before this period, this break, for two years,

you will do robberies or it's after you go back in? We had already started to do it just before, since it was precisely what I had taken on a robbery that made me decide to stop. During my break, in fact, we talk with my mother, my mother tells me, here you have to stop. During my recovery, we talked to my mother, my mother told me,

you have to be able to do something, you have to be able to find a job. I don't know how to do anything, so we decided to buy a small scooter and to go shopping, because it was accessible.

So I left, it had been about ten days since I had hung up, so I'm still missing, actually. Excuse me, have you seen anything on your body? When you take a pill for two years, did it damage anything? Or do you see, I don't know, veins popping out, I don't know, teeth breaking?

Are there any physical signs that you think, damn, it's very bad? So, I don't realize it at that moment, but later, when I saw photos of that time, I saw that I was starting to lose weight You started to dig a bit Yeah, I started to dig a lot

You pay less attention to your hygiene The teeth started to burst a few years later It's not immediate But there's a real difference

It's really bad

It's really bad for the stomach

It's poison for the body

Completely, completely Because you're going to fall back into it later. You lose your appetite. And you live only for that. You wake up in the morning, you think about heroin, you go to bed in the evening, you think about heroin. You live only for that.

It's your cycle. Completely. And so you're going to be a short-term worker. who finds a job, whatever the case, but already to work, to return to a more healthy cycle without drugs, with a job and no gambling, basically

Will you make it?

So, at first, we buy a scooter, I find a job right away I start, it's been about 10 days since I started sobering up I'm still a little bit in the dark, but I hang on because I want to get out of it So I start working, I worked for about 8 months. But every time I had a hard time on the bike, I'm not a handyman, so it was annoying.

And I never do full months, the salary is terrible. But I still hang on. And one day, after 8 months, I meet this couple of friends, with whom I grew up with them and they are with another couple of friends in a stolen car I stop, I see them having a good time, I see them having fun

I see they have a good time, they look good and one of the guys tells me to throw my scooter away, come with us I was so fed up with it I left it and went back with them So I was a bit drunk You took drugs again? I took drugs again

It's going to keep you for a long time? It's going to keep me... There were several steps I was 16 One night I was in a car theft I got arrested

How many cars did you steal in your life? I wouldn't be able to tell you. Really? I wouldn't be able to tell you. Did you do that for years? I didn't do that for years.

You did burglaries?

I stole a few cars. You didn't think about the harm at the time? You knew it was forbidden, but you didn't think about the people who went to work in the morning with their cars and everything. You didn't give a fuck. It's not that I didn't care, I didn't think about it. I didn't know this society. I knew this parallel society in which we lived, I knew our reality, but the rest, for me, I had no idea. Not a moment did I say to myself,

someone who works, what does it have to be like when he doesn't find it... It's something I didn't know, a world I totally ignored. Like a parallel world for you? Completely. The only world I knew was the one I lived with my parents, the one I knew in delinquency, in the consumption of narcotics.

But I didn't know the other world. It took me years to discover it. And so, one night, at night, I steal a car, in the morning of the night, I was taken to the child judge, he let me out, he put me in judicial control,

and the same night I go back to a robbery with a guy who was a major, we get run over, he manages to escape, and I get arrested, because we turn around, I see him enter a building, I tell myself, if I go in, they'll see me, they'll fire me I'll keep going straight, it's not a big deal I got arrested, I got back in front of the judge It's always the same judge who was in charge of the 18th moment of the trial Who sees you every time

And you were no longer 16 I was 16 And he warned you? He warned me

So you knew?

That's it So I got in front of the judge, I have a lawyer in office and the lawyer in office tells me you can go out but you still have to throw the guy who got away and I'm like, out of the question and I go in front of the judge and in his defense he says, yeah, we could maybe give him a chance

if he decided to throw the guy who got away but go away and so, the lawyer comes out You stay cool with the judge? Yes, I'm still ok. We know each other well. I mean, I don't have any... He saw me dozens of times. And when you say dozens of times,

we can imagine, because it's not very clear. How many times did you cheat in your life? When I say dozens of times, you have to understand that the judge for children was not only the judge when I for my first home, who decided for my second home.

You didn't see him only for bullshit. I didn't see him only for that, but he already knew me since I was 8 years old.

So you still do a lot of bullshit, you do a lot of stupid things at the time. I did only that. What are they, hundreds? You did hundreds of bullshit? Dozens?

Several hundreds. Several hundreds of stupid things, yes. It's something very recurring, you know? You really go on and on. It wasn't a one-off thing, it was really... No, because in fact, in this team, we were from the same neighborhood. We all used to do drugs, so already when we were doing

the convoyage... You were spending money on the convoyage?

Well, there was a part of the money that went, obviously, for the drugs, a large part. I don't know, we would go in, we would serve ourselves, we would all dress up and we would obviously give to everyone we knew when we needed food, we would break a food store and we would serve ourselves and we would give to everyone we knew it happened to us to break restaurants just to go eat in it

we would eat in it before leaving but we didn't know how to do anything else sometimes we would do 2 or 3 burglaries in the same night and we did 2-3 burglaries in the same night and we did that every day You were 50 years old, you were 56, so you were 40 years old Yeah, I was 45 So there weren't many surveillance cameras

There were no alarms, no surveillance cameras Really, at first it was quiet, it was easy to get in and out and we were finding money in it quite easily And so the judge, you were 16, he comes, he warned you 10 times, he tells you, if you throw, we can fix it, you say no thank you That's it. And what happens? And so the lawyer comes out, then I have the judge and my educator of freedom of the press who are there Then I hear them talk in front of me, and he says, well, with the pleading of the lawyer, there is no choice

At some point, he will have to send him Just a few days, but at least you'll see what's waiting for you. So, I arrive for the first time in prison. At first, I was afraid to go because when I heard the big guys from my neighborhood telling me that prison is too hot, I shouldn't go. Where are you going to prison? Florimerogis, the CJD, the Centre for Young Detainees, the biggest prison in Europe.

So I arrive in prison, and what do I discover? First, there was no TV in cell at the time. It was one shower a week. The cell is empty, there's nothing in it. So you arrive, you're a minor, you don't have any money, obviously, so you have an empty cell, you wait for the meal, because there's no choice,

you eat, two hours later you're hungry, but you won't have anything else, you'll have to wait to get the next one so you just keep the piece of bread we gave you for lunch to nibble a little bit the rest of the time and then the first days, you don't have a mail you feel like you're completely isolated from the rest of the world You're alone in Céline?

Yes, in Céline we were alone when we were minors There was no cell phone at only wallets. Because today there are a lot of people in prison. We had a lot of inmates, even guards. A lot of ministers too. It's not a secret. Fortunately there are cell phones. A lot of people explained to us

that there are TVs, even consoles. Computers without internet. Depending on the prison, if it's high security areas, we had several versions.

But in any case, the phone allows you to spend time, to deal with a screen, which was not there at the time. And contrary, often we hear in the media that in prison people do traffic with the phones. But the reality is that the guys who try to manage business outside with the phones, there are 200, 300, 400 people in all of France, but there are 85,000 detainees next door. The majority of detainees today who use phones, it's to call their family, to call their kids.

Because the day when we had access to the cabins, the kids are at school, their wives often go to work. So except in the evening, there was no other way to call his relatives. And not to forget that the price of the cabins is just out of price. Today, for example, there are fees to call 20 minutes a day on a mobile phone, it's 120 euros per month. Outside, we all pay a dozen euros to call as much as we want. So it's also this gap that makes that at some point, people prefer to take the risk of having a mobile phone

than to call a cabin which is out of price. Not to forget that having a cell phone in prison is not the club master, contrary to what is said, because having a cell phone is taking the risk of losing it at any moment. It means that every time you go for a walk, you go back up, it's I hope they didn't find it. So it's still a permanent stress that's there. Having a cell phone is also taking the risk of going to jail Going to jail is 2 more days in prison for 1 day in jail

So it's lengthening your prison sentence Getting arrested with a phone is also taking the risk of having a minimum of 2 years in prison for the next commission, since we'll have been in jail for that It's also taking the risk of going back to trial and taking 4 extra months So it's not a leisure, it's not a fun to have a laptop in prison But you didn't have any at the time when you were 16 We'll come back to that later I didn't have any

And how long were you going to stay?

So I didn't stay long, I stayed 8 days Except that during those 8 days

It's a story to show you

Yeah

But it's the opposite It's the opposite because

You weren't afraid?

It took away all the fear I had of prison It scared me, because I felt like it was another home

but I wasn't mistreated

I didn't get beaten up

and beyond the time spent in the cell... You didn't get beaten up in the youth home? I didn't get any and the next day I was walking and when I saw the walking class, what did I see? I saw all the guys from my neighborhood so I wasn not in unknown territory.

And you should know that at the time, there were a lot of clandestines in Barbès, major ones, who pretended to be miners to have reduced penalties, so they ended up in the CJD. So I found all the dealers from my neighborhood, plus my peers. And they told you they weren't miners at all? I knew them, I knew their age. I met guys I knew in the houses.

And very quickly, you're there for what? Car theft? Ah, go ahead, how do you steal cars? So I learn new techniques. And you, you're there for what? What kind of equipment do you use to get in? For locks, for this and that?

So I learn in 8 days, I learned a lot of things. So when I go out, not only did I learn new techniques, but I even kept a few phone numbers. And even in the neighborhood dealers, there are some that I knew from experience. We hung out for eight days.

We played cards, we ate a little, we had a good time. We shared something, so we created a bond that we didn't have before. You're going to go out and you're going to go back several times before you're 18. How many times are you going to go to jail? In total?

Before you're 18.

Before I'm 18, 4-5 times maybe, 3-4 times, 4, yeah, 5 times. You're going to spend your 18 years in jail.

Yeah.

Your 18th birthday, you're going to spend it locked up. It's always for the same reasons.

It didn't calm you down at all?

Absolutely not. It didn't calm me down, simply because after that, I was 2 months, 6 months, 1 year. But in any case, you get out of there, there's nothing to prepare, I go back to my neighborhood, in my neighborhood, I have the same friends,

the same knowledge, my life hasn't change. So I was taken from my life for a while and I was put back in the life I left. So, of course, I had to eat again, and I went back to my old life. And then... At 18, I got out of prison

and I found this girl I had met at my last home. So I was invited to her place. We decided to build something together and for me, something new is being created

so I take my first apartment we live together very quickly she tells me that's good, you've made some efforts you've cut the ties with everyone that's not bad

and it would be good if you work but me, as I said, I don't have a job, I don't know how to do anything what do I want to work in?

You have no training?

Absolutely nothing and even when I'm asked what I want to do, I don't know and they say to me, why don't you focus on cooking? you cooked well, it's true that I always cooked a little and so I start doing a 6 months training to be a chef And I sympathize a lot with my bosses They are 27 and 29 years old

It really became like a pseudo-family They also had a hard time, especially my boss He had a hard time with amphetamines So we understood each other well, he really took me under his wing And every afternoon during our break, he teaches me how to cook So we make meals together, we bring them home in the evening

He teaches you a job You live with your wife I live with my wife, I don't have a driving license

A normal life, you don't take drugs anymore

I don't take drugs anymore, I cut bridges with everyone I finally have a bank account, I'm starting to have a new start in my life And in the meantime, my older sister was into drugs. She was dating a robber, for whom I stole cars for a while, which were used on his robberies.

At some point, they come to live in the same building as us, but since I don't want to go back, we don't see each other much. When we see each other, it's really goodbye, it stops there. Then we decide to move, We don't see each other that much. When we do, it's really goodbye, it stops there. Then we decide to move because I really wanted to get away from all this. So we move and we put ourselves right next to my job.

We've been together for about two years, so two years I really don't do bullshit anymore. When I finished my six-month training, my boss told me I couldn't apply because we didn't have the means but we decided to continue this work, but jokingly I have a salary every month I really feel good with them And after 2 years, I have my partner from that time who got pregnant with me And for me it was just a logical continuity

I work, we have our apartment, I'm in a relationship, having a baby, yeah, great It's the life you've been dreaming about Yeah, because I tell myself, if I have a child, I'll be able to offer him what I didn't have I'll be able to repair my childhood through this child So for me it's obvious, I'm super happy, super happy And one afternoon, I'm at work, we're preparing a meal with my boss I remember it was dorade that we had stuffed

And in the evening, after the service, I bring it back home, I'm super happy And I open the door and I really see a word on the table at the bottom of the room And there I don't need to know more, I know exactly what's going on So I go in, I put the dish in the kitchen, I take the letter, I read it and there, basically, in the letter, she tells me for her, things were still too fresh

and she wasn't ready to bear the pregnancy because she was afraid that my past would resurface and she tells me that I went to the only person who could understand me to get me to get an abortion. And for me, I had a very bad experience, it was a great pain. And at the same time, I was thinking that a child is done in two,

but an abortion is also done in two. And again, I wasn't asked for my opinion. So it was very complicated. The following week, she came back, she got an abortion, and for me, it was not possible.

So you left her?

So it was not possible, I couldn't stand her anymore. We broke up. I left my job. And one day I went to my mother's house and in the street I met my older sister, right in front of my mother's house. And I asked her, what are you doing in the street I meet my older sister, right in front of my mother's house. And I say to her, what are you doing in the street?

She looks at me, she doesn't recognize me, she doesn't know who I am. I say, what are you telling me? She says, I'm looking for where I live. I say, are you kidding me? We live right here. And then we go up to my mother's house together. I will explain later that she fell into a hidden place called the Imminoctal that caused a lot of deaths in the Paris region at the time We had already lost a friend 6 months before because of this same drug

Basically, with this hidden place, in 6 months you don't know how to call yourself and in the following weeks you are no longer there What are these hidden places? Are they drug substitutes? These are drugs that were given in psychiatry, but quite strong drugs, really very violent, sold in Châtelet-Les Halles. It was really noisy, and the nickname of these drugs was called Kunu.

It was very well known, I never touched it. So your sister was also in the drug business? Yes, my sister was in the drug business.

You got out of it and she was in it?

She got out with a drug dealer who was a drug dealer himself. So they were together and then he was arrested for drug dealing. So she was alone. And because heroin was expensive, she started to take her cash. It was sold for 5 francs per unit in Châtelet-Les Halles. And very quickly, she didn't even know what it was called, she didn't know where she lived. It was really crazy. And for a long time I blamed her because I thought, stupidly, that if she had consumed the first time, it was to understand why I had consumed.

For a long time I wore this burden because I was convinced of it, while the reality is that she went out with a guy who was consuming. And you're going to help her get out of the... And so I just left my job, I left my romantic relationship, I have my apartment, and so I decide to take her home. I tie her up with a chain so that she can reach the fridge, take a shower, go to the toilet, but above all, so that she can't jump out of the window. Why don't you take her to a hospital?

There are no centers... ...hospitals, detoxification centers... Nowadays we hear about post-treatment centers, but at the time we didn't talk about it. We didn't talk about drugs on TV. I'm talking about the 80's. We didn't talk about it in schools, or anywhere.

Even if there were small centers that existed, I never heard about it anywhere. At that time. I discovered it a few years later. At first I left it at home, it was tied with its laces. And after about 4 days, it told me

« I would like to go out, look, it's starting to get better, I'm getting my mind back. » It told me « you know what, the confinement, come on, let's go for a little walk » I told it « ok, I could only understand So I let her go, I told her, if you want we can hide at my mom's and we'll come back I lived in Luxembourg, next to the Luxembourg park So we go to my mom's, we go up to my mom's At some point she tells us, I want to go to the bathroom, I'm coming

Bathroom on the floor She didn't go to the bathroom, she left So... So the next day I go to buy L'Eleal to pick her up And when I go to buy L'Eleal, I see her arrive, I see her go buy her medication to a guy I jump on the guy, I start hitting him, hitting him, hitting him And at some point I hear a noise on the side, I turn my head It was his colleague with a baseball bat

I hit him with a baseball bat here I had the bone of the mal my back that was broken The bone was there I have a scar here and an iron plate here I was really disfigured, I didn't feel anything It completely anesthetized me I was like 10 meters away

So my mother told me to stay at the hospital I waited 2-3 days Then they told me to get surgery Otherwise I would be disfigured for life. So I had surgery. In the meantime, I went back to my sister's house, I put her back together. And I thought about what I could do.

I said to myself, I'm going to sell heroin, I'm going to give her heroin, I'm going to put her in heroin to get her out of these cages, otherwise she won't get out. You didn't give her one drug to the other? Yes, because I could see that in 6 months people would die of this drug. I got rid of heroin, so I know about the heroin. I know that we can get rid of it, and even during the years I took it, I still remember how I used to call myself. So it's a drug that is less violent than these drugs.

So I decided to sell it to give it to him for consumption. And over the weeks that went by, it slowly started to become itself. And of course, I got arrested for drug trafficking. So I'm going to Florimerogis, I'm incarcerated for drug trafficking. I don't get a big sentence, I get 6 months, I think. And it's been about 3 months that I was in prison.

And one day, I have the detention chief calling me in his office and he tells me, I have bad news, your sister died. So in fact, when I fell, she was no longer in the ruins, so she put herself back in her hiding place. And there, 3 months later, her heart stopped, she died. And so there... And you were in prison when you found out she was dead?

Yes, I was in prison.

You went to her funeral?

I had an exceptional permit of 48 hours to go there. But for me it was the collapse because for decades, really decades, several decades, I carried this weight on my shoulders because I felt guilty, because I she had consumed it because of me and because I was thinking what could I have done to save her?

And then there were questions like did I tell her enough that I loved her? Did she know that I loved her? These are things that really tortured me. You're going back to prison? I'm going to the funeral.

What's happening is that I'm so destroyed, I'm so... But completely... I'm really in the air. I have some money on the side, since I sold before being arrested. I buy heroin, I bring heroin with me to prison, I consume it until I get out. So I sniffed every day because I couldn't stand the idea of ​​losing my sister. So I have about two months left to do.

So I go out two months later, I'm at my mother's. I've been out for a few days, and my mother said, I'd like to introduce you to someone. Well, I said, yeah, if you want. Anyway, I'm not good in my skin, I'm not good in the fact of having fallen back into it, I'm not good in losing my sister, I'm not father, because I would have liked to leave in his place. And then my mother brings me the priest of the church next to our house.

So he sits with me, we start talking, and he tells me, you know, your mother has already lost her daughter. Keep going like this, she will also lose her son, except that now you're going to kill her. And so I know he's telling the truth, that's what I'm telling him, But I don't know how to do it, I don't have a job. I would like to live differently, I would like to feel better in my skin. I know nothing else, I know nothing else and I don't know how to do it.

So they find me a post-op, you have to know that to go to a post-op you have to be sedated. Except that to be sedated, you have to make a request in a hospital, there are waiting times, 15 days of sedation, and then you go there.

But since I don't want to wait anymore, because now, for once, I'm being given a solution.

When I'm in contact with the post-op, so I'm asked if I want to go to a real one. What is a post-op? A post-op is a place where you have to be sedated, you'll be taught to do a physical activity

and to get back to habits you may have never had or lost,

so that you can gradually find a place in society. And it's during a summer, after this cure, you meet your daughter's mother whose name is Valérie, you name her Valérie in the book. You're in La Rochelle, I think, at that moment, and you learn that she's pregnant and that you will become a father. That's it. In fact, what happened is that I arrived in La Rochelle,

so I started meeting people from Amda. To live in La Rochelle? To live? Well, I had nowhere else to go, so I'm a little bit, squatting in the tents at the youth hostel, and there I meet a girl who becomes my companion and very quickly she gets pregnant with me.

And me, since my ex got an abortion, I only wanted to have a child. So, that's it, I'm super happy again. How old are you? I'm getting close to 22 years old. And I propose to her to come with me to Paris, so that we can try to find work and build a life together. So, we go to Paris, except that my mother tells me

we have an apartment, it's the one where my older sister died. And it was empty, so I'm going to live in this apartment. Except that in this apartment there are all these old memories, so I know my sister died there, every day I go into the living room, this is what I see, this is the place where she was found dead.

And so very quickly, I get upset and I fall back into drugs In fact, I didn't know she was pregnant yet, we knew it right after So first I get upset, she had already known products before knowing me So we both get upset Quickly, we learn that she is pregnant, we decide to keep her We both find a job, except that our lives, in our heads, it's not that yet

You both take them at once? We take both of them.

While she's pregnant?

While she's pregnant.

That's it.

But the problem is that we had known her before, and so, the fact that she's pregnant, it happened afterwards.

You can't stop all of a sudden, can you?

We can't. We're already trying to maintain the job we had. We have a job, we have a semblance of life, but despite several attempts, we can't stop. You say page 78, I'm in paradise, but with both feet in hell at that moment. That is, you are so happy to know that you have a dad, and at the same time you are stuck on drugs, you can't get out of it yet.

That's it, I'm really happy because, there for once, she agrees that we keep the child, but we have our feet in hell because we can't get out of the drug. How does pregnancy go? Unnoticed. Unnoticed because we learn she's pregnant, it's been six months she's pregnant. It wasn't visible because of the drug we were... Like a denial of pregnancy?

Yes, completely. The belly doesn't grow before six months? The belly doesn't grow and you should know that a woman who has been diagnosed with heroin has not had her periods. So it wasn't a surprise that she didn't have her periods, because she didn't have them before. So we didn't even know about it, and I don't remember how we found out about it,

I think she had to take a medical exam. So we learn about it, we decide to keep her, she gives birth prematurely, at my mother's. So she calls me, I lose the water, I go to my mother's, the firemen are there, the doctors and she gave birth very very quickly, so in my presence The little one, as she was born prematurely, she was put in a incubator and we learn that she also has toxoplasmosis

so she is placed in a pupillary

So what is toxoplasmosis?

So it's a disease that often comes either because of cats or because of the red meat that the mother could eat. There is no gravity to that. But it is placed in a pupillary, so they see that the mother is a toxicoman. A pupillary is a box? No, a pupillary is a service in which they have several children,

because they are treated, they are treated inside this pupil so there are professionals

How long does it stay there?

It stays there for about a year

A year?

Yes

It stays a year in the hospital?

Yes

So for a year, we're going to see it quite regularly but we don't go out for so much of the drug and to have the drug, I sell it and so after a year we learn that it will be placed in a foster home. So, for me, it's disastrous.

So we go deeper and very quickly, I find myself incarcerated for drug trafficking in Nouveau. So when I get to prison, I tell myself, well, it can't last like this. And at some point, I hear about the toxicomania antenna, so I go see a psychologist. And there I really come across a really extraordinary professional who managed to put words on what I was feeling, who managed to really look deep inside me for what was wrong,

and who helped me to understand, in fact, all this discomfort I had inside me. I worked on the story of my parents, I started to understand that my father, his parents had separated, he lived with his mother who had a new life, who had two other children with her husband, and so my father had become a bit of a bastard in the family. His mother was an alcoholic, she hit him regularly, in fact he reproduced what he had lived as a child.

How many times did you go to prison? Because you go in, you go out, you go in, you go out. Do you know how many times you went to jail?

In total, I must have gone 8, 9 times, maybe. A little bit.

But at first, it was really short periods. After that, it was much longer periods. And now you're going to start dealing, in a way, you say international traffic, etc. How old does it start? Is it from there or...? It's going to change when I get out of two prison sentences.

I've been in prison for 15, 30 months, during which I'm doing a long therapy where I start to put words on what I feel and where I decide to change. I say, drugs are over, I won't fall back into it. I go out and I say,

first thing, I'm leaving Paris. I cut ties with everyone. So I take a bag, I go to La Rochelle and I say to myself, I take my daughter's mother in my arms because I don't want to do the same thing as my father. So I'm going to get my daughter's mother and I'm going to get my daughter. So we arrive in La Rochelle, I start very, very quickly before a little bit of shit. Not even a week later, the guy I bought my first thing from, I'm the one who provides it. A few months later, I already have several

clients, I buy by several kilos, I take a duplex by the sea, I have a car, I ask for a social survey at my home, in order to get my daughter back. So the social survey is fabulous. While you live off drug trafficking? While I live off drug trafficking, life, but I hide it well. What drugs do you sell? At the beginning I only sold cannabis because I didn't want to fall back into heroin. And at the same time because I thought that hard drugs would attract cops very easily. So at the beginning I only sold shit.

And then I learn that my clients buy heroin and cocaine elsewhere. So I tell myself, if the cops get on them because of these products, they'll show me the same way, so I might as well sell them directly. And I felt strong enough to do it, because I bought a kilo there, I sold it to them right away, I didn't stock it, so I didn't have any with me, it didn't cause me any problems.

So the social investigation at my home is favorable. So what do you mean, where did you get the money from? Well, simply because I have my RMI at the time, my daughter's mother has her RMI.

RMI is the RSA today.

It's the equivalent of RSA.

Minimum income of a station.

That's it. We have housing allocations, we took in co-location with my brother-in-law, so the brother of my daughter's mother, who has a disabled rental allocations because it's the room, everything is furnished, my daughter has her room, so the social inquiry remains

favorable. Especially since what I had asked was to have my daughter during the school holidays to pick her up when she came home.

And you were happy with this girl when you picked her up, no?

So at that moment, we are still together. At that moment, we are still together. At that moment, we're still together. My daughter comes, she visits the apartment, she sees her room, she's happy. The return is favorable, except that a while later, I get arrested for drug trafficking. You didn't stop when you got your daughter back? No. I didn't even have time to get her back. I didn't even have time to get her back. And so, once again, everything collapses, I lose everything. But in my head, I know my daughter won't forgive me, it was obvious.

And I tell myself, I don't know how to do anything else. And for once in my life, there is at least one thing I learned to do, it's traffic, but in a more professional way. Because I went up very, very fast. I have all my clients there, my suppliers For me it was a bit even if I wasn't aware of it

I wasn't putting any words on it it was a bit like I became a CEO It worked well, I was professional So, back to jail? So, back to jail I'm doing meetings

In fact, in this return I'm doing two meetings A first meeting with a guy who was an international trafficker, who had already been sentenced twice to 10 years, who is 20 years my senior. The current, it passes very, very quickly. They know I'm not talking, they know I'm there for a case where I take on everything, there's no problem.

And he tells me, well, listen, when you go out, if you want, we can meet again, I can make contact with you, and when I'm outside, we can work together. So that was the first thing, and that's the person I did all my business with afterwards. And the second person I met was a hacker who was sending letters to the detainees. And since I don't know how to read or write, I said to him, can you send me to everyone, what if it happens? And he said, no, but if you want, I'll do it with you. I go, he teaches me how to send letters, we even put each other in a cell afterwards,

and one day he explains to me that when he was young, he was summoned with his mother to school by the counselor. The counselor had told his mother, your son does not have the intellectual capacity to learn, he will never do schoolwork. He said, except that today I am preparing a very high diploma. And for me it was important because he told me that in reality we are all capable.

What makes the difference is to find the person who is able to teach you. And in fact he really pushed me to take correspondence courses. So he guided me to an association called Auxilia. This is a volunteer association that gives correspondence courses to prisoners. They sent me a test assignment, I only did the beginning because my level was not going any further. They sent me a lesson in French and there, for once, I understand the lessons and I understand what they expect from me.

Because it was simply at my level.

I do my homework, I send them, a few weeks later I receive an envelope that is open of course. and I understand what they expect from me, because it was simply at my level.

So I do my homework, I send them, a few weeks later I receive an envelope, which is open of course, I see the grades, 18 out of 20, 19 out of 20. First reaction, I look at the name on the envelope, it was mine, and there I say to myself, but the old man is right, I am capable. Contrary to what I was told that I was capable. And I wanted to know how far I was capable. So I really committed myself to it, in my studies. I passed a CFG at the beginning, a college certificate, a CAP, a BEP, a DAU,

and I ended up writing my autobiography. So it really changed a lot of things, but when I got out of prison, it didn't change the reality of things. Because this same detainee also told me something else. He told me, you know, society is not ready to re-insert people like us. Your only chance to get out,

take the money illegally, whiten it, reinvest it legally, make your place in society. And so when I got out, I really believed what he had told me, and that's a bit what guided the following years. So I get out of prison,

and when I get out, this international drug dealer I met starts to make the first contacts. Does he introduce you to guys, in bars? No, he told me his phone number, so I'm called by a guy who was in the Paris region, in Île-de-France, so I meet him. He explains the basic rules, he told me, never call yourself from a phone to a phone.

So you're going to buy a phone, under a fake name, which will be used only for me. When I want to call you, I go to a booth, I make you ring once, you go to a booth, you call me back to this number. You get caught with your cellphone, there's no trace.

Because when he calls me, he only rings once, it doesn't record, I didn't give up. So that's it, it was a first rule. Indeed, I had to work with this guy for 17 years. There has never been a case in which we were linked together. Never. He was very careful. He was more than very careful, but he also taught me a lot about caution.

He was someone who was older than me, who frequented the real environment. He taught me a lot of things. So when I went to see him, it wasn't complicated. We were called from cabin to cabin, so there was no danger. I told him what I needed, and when I arrived, we opened the car's trunk, he gave me, I got in, took out the money,

I gave him, in less than two minutes, everything was done in the middle of the street. There was no problem. What was your role? What were you doing? I was buying the goods, in Paris, in the Parisian region. I was going back to La Rochelle, where I was staying. What was the goods? It was cannabis. With him, he was only making cannabis.

And you took him to La Rochelle? I went to La Rochelle, and I waited, I got my money back, and I was only making money.

And you were making a lot of money there?

There, already, I was starting to make a little bit... A pretty substantial amount of money. But at the same time, that was one part of it. The second part was that the same person that I had met in detention put me in touch with some guys who were in Belgium and I could get some very good quality heroin

and some very good quality heroin. I went to get it, I came back and I distributed it to my same clients. So always my 4-5 clients, I distributed it all. So I got there pretty fast. How does it work, the meetings where you transport the merchandise? Is it like in movies, behind containers in ports ports with a bit of a sluggish guy?

Are they totally normal guys, with an appearance in a Vinci parking lot in Paris? A digot there? What does a movie look like and what doesn't? You have to know that most of the people I used to hang out with were people who were 50, 60 years old. You meet them in the street, they're Mr. Everyone.

Really... Invisible. You never know, you can't tell. Really... Just by their physique, they're really Mr. Lambda. So sometimes, I don't know, for example, I had a guy, a former member of the gang of the Lyonnais,

a guy who made armored wagons, who still has a lot of experience, he, his thing, he didn't want to drive. He arrived with a big suitcase full of goods, he took the train quietly, he arrived in a restaurant, there were 4 or 5 of us waiting for him, so we all ate together, quietly, with the groceries And at some point he opened his suitcase He gave everyone the bag he brought us

We gave him the bags with the money we brought, put it back in And he left quietly He didn't count in front of everyone?

Not like in the movies?

No, there was no problem between us Anyway, he counted again afterwards Are they armed in these meetings?

No, nobody... Anyway, they'll tell you later. Are they armed in those meetings? Have you ever had meetings with armed guys?

Yes, it happened, but not here. They were people we all knew for a long time, and we were introduced to them, there were no problems. They're friends of friends, right? They're friends of friends, but they're mostly old-fashioned guys.

They're really old-fashioned, so there's no reason. Weren't you afraid of being shot in a car, in a parking lot, and they took the cash and didn't give you the merchandise? Not with them. But it had already happened to you? It had already happened to me.

You felt that the guys, you weren't too sure, you didn't feel them too much?

I got away pretty quickly, by the way. Yeah, there were times when it was a little bit more difficult. You have a friend who's going to get caught, Daniel, in front of the customs officers. You explain in the book, he panics a bit. What you can explain is that we also understand what your life is like as a drug trafficker. And then we're going to talk about, you also wanted to talk about a story

that happens to you with hallucinating police officers who will escort you. This scene seems unreal. It's a movie scene. It seems unreal. And it's important to understand,

because then we'll come to the after, so to understand what you've been through, it's very important to understand that. What's going on with your friend Daniel? So, there were two things. So, with Daniel, we're going to Paris, I'm going to get some cannabis, so the car is still full.

It's Christmas Eve, Christmas Eve. So, as I have an escort, because he's going to open the road for me, I don't hide the gear. So we open my trunk, it's a Ford Mondeo Break, so the whole back is filled with gifts, and there are two Kaba bags filled with cannabis bread. We take the highway, so I tell him,

a quarter of an hour's drive between us, so we know, we respect the speed limit, so we drive, we drive, we get to La Roche-sur-Yon, we go out, we go quickly to a corner, I deliver a client to me, who came to join us. We take the road again, we leave 15 minutes early. And when I get to Fontenay-le-Comte, so the exit where I live, I arrive at the toll, when I arrive at the toll, what do I see in front of me? He was right in front of me. But I say to boil inside me, and then I'm with the mother of my son, the mother of my future son, who is with me in the car.

And there, so, he passes, the barrier opens, he passes, I get to the barrier, and there I see the roundabout, I see the gendarmes. And so the gendarmes start to control him.

To control him?

To control him. They make him get out of the car, they open the trunk of his car, it's night, and he leaves. And I tell myself, it's dead, I have no way to get through. And I know that the shit is visible in the trunk of the car. And I tell my daughter,

I tell her, you don't know, I left with the car, I picked you up in Paris, we took the road, you don't know anything. And so now we're getting to the level... Your wife was pregnant? Your other wife, because you had a little girl in prison? She wasn't... No, she wasn't pregnant yet. You didn't have a child yet? We had a son later.

Okay.

She wasn't the same as the first wife?

No.

No, no, we separated... from the moment of my first incarceration. It's complicated, because it's years of absence and it's never easy to live for those who are outside. So I get to the police station, I open my window and I start to have a little discussion. You're going to work on Christmas Eve, it must be hard, they're not nice to you. Anyway, I try to calm things down a bit He asks me for the car papers, I give them to him, I talk to him

And at some point he tells me, I want to get out of the car and open the trunk In my head I tell him, it's dead Did you have a lot of drugs in it? No, there was 30 kilos, but as soon as we... You say no, it's a lot It's 30 kilos of shit

So I start to go around the car. I remember it's night, it's December. And I open the trunk very slowly. And in my trunk, I have two big dogs. I have two dogs that weigh 40 kg each. And I say to the dogs, slowly, slowly.

And they say, you have dogs? And I say, well, let them fall. And I close the case, and I think to myself, I really... An extremist. Yeah, I wasn't expecting it, and I go back to it. Thank you, good evening, good New Year's Eve to you, see you next time. What's the biggest amount of drugs you've seen in your life?

That I've seen? 30 kilos, you say it's nothing.

Did you find yourself in front of a quantity?

Yes, I found myself in Spain, there were 2 tons of cannabis there. I saw other quantities for heroin, for cocaine of course. So that was a first event. But there was another one that was also something. So I'm with my son's mother, we're in Lille.

How old were you at the time?

I don't even know how old I was. We'll say about thirty years old. So I go up to Lille, because there are some guys I know They have a hangar between the Belgian and French borders So I take the car, I buy them 3 kilos of coke, which are hidden in the car We leave again, and we are in the rush hours in the island

At some point, my ex tells me Shit, there are the gendarmes controlling the Red Light District. I told him, don't worry, she's dressed in a suit, she has a computer on her knees, I'm wearing a suit.

How much drugs did you have?

I had 3 kilos of cocaine. But I'm not worried, because they're still hidden.

3 kilos of cocaine in France is a lot, in terms of prison.

In terms of prison, yes. When you have a lock, it's clearly several years in prison. Several years, yes. Several years, of course. And so... But well, I'm not worried, because I know it's sorted. I'm in a car, there are a lot of us on the back window. I know exactly what I'm going to tell them.

And so...

You're preparing your legend, so to speak.

That is, your marathon. When I drive my car, I have a second skin. I'm no longer me, I'm no longer the drug dealer. I know, I'm a professional, I know exactly what I've told. For me, it's really a second skin. I'm an actor. And there, I open the window, as soon as I get to their level, I call them. I call them, I say, excuse me, and everything. We are putting a site in common between Belgium and France, I have an appointment with the people of the city at the Ibis hotel, but there I will never arrive on time with the traffic jams that there are,

and in addition I am completely lost. And there the gendarme says to me, don't move, we're going to open the road for you. And there is a motor gendarme who stands in front, another one behind, Jirofa, and are escorted by the police. I don't expect them to escort me. When I tell them that, it's to avoid control, to say, go ahead, if you are not safe. And if it's the people of the city, it's their employers.

Did you say it was for the city's website? Yes, because I explain very quickly. The police don't escort easily, it never happens. Except for pregnant women who are going to give birth, or someone who is uncomfortable in a car, of course. When I tell them that it's with the city that we have an appointment, it's also their employees, it's the people they work with. So for them it was like that.

And they escort you?

They escort us, and as soon as we arrive at the sight of the Ibis Hotel, I see them leave, and we enter the parking lot of the Ibis hotel parking But I really didn't expect it I never imagined they would escort us All I wanted was to have a good time So... There were other moments But there were a lot Sometimes it's a bit of cold sweat

You're talking about a friend who had a suitcase with a double bottom If there was a Northern Railway The famous Daniel Ah yes, that's it

I think I gave a false name.

I changed all the names in my autobiography to avoid that anyone would be recognized. Indeed, there was a young Daniel that I had recruited, that I had met in prison. He needed money, so I offered him to make a few trips to Holland to bring back products, hard drugs. And I made him a suitcase with a double bottom and at some point he's in the train, he calls me on disposable phones and he tells me, well I see him, he's panicking

I tell myself, he must have taken a coke rail, he's paranoid and at some point he tells me, yeah I saw them several times, they're in the car I tell him, listen, what you do is you put your suitcase in the beginning of the wagon, you sit all the way back and if you see that they are still there, you don't take it. You don't go down with the thing, it doesn't matter, we're going on a trip, we're getting back on a trip, it's nothing. But since he had put a little bit of money in it, he didn't want to him there are the gendarmes without the dogs. But there are the gendarmes. I told him, don't take the suitcase, leave it there.

Nothing to do, he goes with it. So I go out, I don't see what's going on, I follow him afterwards. And in fact, when I read the instruction file, what happened is that he arrives at the gendarmes' level. The gendarmes control him. He starts to panic, he starts to sweat. So the police officer asks him again, he sees that he sweats even more. He puts his hand on his heart, he smells the heart that is beating the shaman. And he says to him, wait, you've been sweating since earlier, your heart is beating from sound to sound.

And then he goes straight to the table, he tells me, I have a double bottom in my suitcase, watch out for the product.

He panics?

He panics, but he completely gets on the table And like him, he lives in La Roche-sur-Ronde What does he say when he's in custody? I still have products at home, which was wrong, because I had the cleaning done anyway But he says he still has products there to be transferred there Except he forgot one thing, it's that La Roche-sur-Ronde is not the same pen than in Paris

So there he takes 4 years, I take 6 Much later, he doesn't tell me, I'm not identified at all, but much later, when I'll be identified in this case...

You'll take 6 more. How many years did you spend in prison?

You did 22, but how many in total? In total, I was sentenced to 35 years in prison. Out of 35 years, with the remissions, the sentences I got, I did 22. Are there moments when you ask yourself the question that drugs can kill people. At what point do you say to yourself, I might be doing something that's not right, that's not moral.

At some point, does it come to your mind, and you're going to be a dad, once, twice, does it come to your mind at some point,

or not at all, or right away?

So, today it's obvious that I'm fighting against drug trafficking, that I'm against drug trafficking, that I fight against... well, that I try to help all the kids not to get into it because obviously it's bad for everyone it destroys, once again, I said it at the beginning, it destroys a lot of families but the problem is that a smoker, for example,

who's going to work in a tobacco office and who's going to sell tobacco deep down he knows it's not good, it kills people but he's a smoker himself, so he doesn't realize... I mean, we don't really put words on it the guy who works in a bar, who sells alcohol, who drinks or doesn't drink deep down he knows it's not good, that it destroys lives, it doesn't prevent him from selling it because we don't really put ourselves in the other's shoes

I was a consumer, I lost my sister in we think, maybe it's an excuse, but we think, if people don't buy from me, they'll buy from somewhere else. And I'm not the cause of their consumption. If they consume, it's because there are things that are not right in their lives. I didn't invent drugs either. So we don't really realize it. We realize it when we leave this life.

Do you take advantage of dirty money? What do you do with that dirty money? You say you've wasted a part of it, but do you do anything about it? We've received emails saying that you spend dirty money very quickly. At one time, I was making between 40 and 60,000 euros a month. I was drinking at everyone's house,

I went to the restaurant, there were 10 or 20 of us, I was paying for everyone. I was sending mandates to those in the closet, I was for everyone, I sent mandates to those who were in the closet, I took lawyers, even though I didn't have the utility, the obligation to do it. We ate at the restaurant every day for years. One day I found myself in prison, I said to myself,

but just what I spent at the restaurant these last two years, noon and evening, if I had that money right now, I would be fine. We changed cars like two crazy. It was nonsense. We were losing the notion of money. Did you buy yourself some nice cars? We rented them.

We had a BMW dealer where we could, every week, every six months, change cars. We had new cars. We'd start over, pay every month. Earlier you said

you were driving and the police escorted you.

Where did you hide it?

In the back doors.

Did you do it alone?

Yes, of course. Have you ever seen corruption? Yes, of course. Of course. Since you were on the wrong side, did you see...

Yes, of course. Did you buy...

A simple example, once... In my early days, really, in my early days... Without giving precise locations... There are others I couldn't tell, but... Just an example. In my early days, one day, I was working on Barbès,

well, I was working... I was dealing, and my colleague at the time, he's on Pigalle, and he says to me, yeah, go ahead, you can bring back such quantity, we have a client, we have an appointment, I'm just at McDonald's. And so I have this quantity of heroin with me, then I arrive at McDonald's, so I see them all on a table,

and I recognize a cop among the group. So what do I do? I say nothing, hello everyone, I go to the bathroom, I throw't know what you're talking about, it's not a cop I know him, he's a Barbès cop He said, yeah I know him, don't worry, no problem His wife is a prostitute, she's a drug user

I said, you idiot, why didn't you tell me before, I threw the merchandise And so, this guy, after that, once I knew He gave us information every time there were cops' plans that were made at Barbès because they were often high up and they were looking at what was happening in the street So everytime there were things, they kept us informed In exchange for drugs?

In exchange, of course, we always gave them a little bit of drugs for their girl But even afterwards, there were cops telling us if there was a search warrant When someone was arrested and we needed to know where he was We just had to give his name, his date of birth, we knew right away where he was. What's the mistake you shouldn't make when you're drug trafficking, so you don't get killed? Not to get involved.

Not to get involved?

Not to get involved. Not to get involved in the trafficking. I couldn't give any other advice because it's not a path to follow anyway. Have you ever seen someone get shot?

No.

Have you ever thought someone get shot? No. Have you ever thought about shooting someone?

Yes.

Yes, clearly.

It's not necessarily that you did it, it's just that you thought about it. It can happen to get angry at someone and you're like, well...

Actually, I thought about it more than I did for very simple reasons. I have this building. I did all the work in it for two years, I put a lot of money aside, I had some abroad, I had some at my clients, I even had money hidden at my mother's house at the time. My business was going well, I was close to quitting. And at one point I'm in our house with my wife, my son's mother,

and I tell her, listen, it's been a few years, there was a goal, it was to take money, to invest it, to invest it legally. Today, we have money on the side.

I had negotiated in addition the two buildings that were planned. What amount does it represent? We imagine your goal, you were waiting for the building? Well, it's not a HLM, it's a small building, two floors, two provinces, but there were two buildings next door that I could buy for really ridiculous sums. I had a little over 400,000 euros in liquid, so I could do a lot of work. And three buildings, if I put all the apartments in rental, well, I have enough to live.

You rent it, you live on it.

That's over. And I can make my family live on it. That was my goal, I don't need more. So I thought about it, I thought it might be the time to stop, and she said, yes, I think you're right. So I went to see a notary,

and I said, how can I take back the building in my name without having to get money out of it knowing that I've done some work in it, I can justify everything with my company And that was in the name of your brother? The building was in the name of my brother And so we find a meeting place with the notary and I tell my brother, here's the appointment on that day at the notary's, etc.

And obviously I contact all my friends, I tell them, guys, I'm done, I'm done for, I'm done. I have what I need, I don't need more, so no problem, everyone respects that. And then, 3 days after going to the notary, I receive a text from my brother, and he tells me, I'm not coming to the appointment, the building is in my name, it's mine. That's the reality of dirty money, actually. It turns the head of our country. You're going to be betrayed by your brother.

Yeah. That's the reality of money. It's the opposite of our country. You were betrayed by your brother. Yes. So, I'm mad angry, I take the car, I go straight to Paris. But I still go to pick up my mother first, because I think she might be able to... To reason. To reason a little. So she gets in between us, the tone before I arrived, because he knows that I can't tell the cops anything. He can justify the purchase of the building, he made a loan, even if I paid for everything. I can't say anything, actually.

Obviously, I didn't risk saying anything. At one point, my mother is in the hospital, and he pushed my mother, not to hurt her, really, it was an unthinkable gesture. I put a right hand, the cops are coming and they are filing a complaint against me for stabbing and injuring I'm in custody I'm in custody for 48 hours, I'm released I go straight to my mother I called her first I hear her crying on the phone, so I go to her

I've never seen my mother cry so much and she tells me, don't hurt your brother he's also my son and then I'm caught between two chairs because my mother is the last person on earth I can hurt. So I go home, I stay 48 hours locked up alone in my room, and I think, think, think, and I leave that room and I tell my ex,

OK, I've spent 2 years doing this job, starting from scratch, today I have a clientele, I have money, I have knowledge that I didn't have at the beginning I'm going to do even better than that in 6 months So I put the lid back on I call my suppliers, my clients, everyone The next day I put the lid back on And 2 months later, we all stopped because my suppliers, my associates, my friends They already had the flicks on them, during those 2 months they got on them

And so we all stopped for international stupending traffic in organized bands, so now it's the special assistance.

And so how long do you take?

I'm incarcerated first, well, when I'm incarcerated, I do what I can, I work, I resume my studies, and that's when my son's mother gets pregnant. So when she gets pregnant, she tells me, yeah, I'm still 40,

well, keep a word, if I've never been a mother before, it's maybe because I'm not made to be a mother. And I told her, I don't agree with you because I saw you with my daughter and I know you have everything to be a good mother. And she told me, but it's not compatible with the life we have. I told her, I'm ready to stop everything. So we said to ourselves, ok, we keep it. And I still had some money left. And a few months passed, and after 9 months, a robber I was hanging out with,

we were close because we had a lot in common, he organized a traffic outside with his girlfriend, I don't know anything about this, but his girlfriend knew me, my wife picked her up at the station, she took her by car, so we all know each other. She gets arrested, and when she gets arrested, to protect her boyfriend, she throws me out saying that I gave the money to the parlor. She's talking nonsense.

Except for the judge, I take it seriously, so it, I don't even know what's going on. I'm called by the detention manager, and she tells me, I have some bad news. The good news, your son just was born, he's weighing, he's measuring, he's in good health. I say, ok, what's the bad news? The instruction judge just withdrew all your visitation permits. The day of my kid's birth, they withdrew all my visitation permits. So it's already starting to boil, because I don't even know why at that moment, I really followed them afterwards. Well, in the days that followed. The same evening I'm on the phone, in the morning they blow up my cell phone on the judge's order, so they take my phone chip, that's all they find.

I take three weeks of half-time. After 15 days of half-time, they tell me, well, P tells me, you have a week of MITAR left, we forget. On the other hand, I warn you here, it's 45 days. So I tell her, you are hidden, I will be hidden with you, I will be patient for a while. But if you don't let me see my wife and my children, I'll pick up a phone again, that I'm at MITAR, at the isolation, wherever you want, I'll have a phone. So I try to, a little everyone to warn. Two hours later she calls me back and says, I'm really sorry, the judge has ordered us not to warn your family, from where you are.

In the morning I post my 3-4 letters as I always did, in the afternoon I receive a notification, all letters taken. And that, it never stopped, so no one heard from me, I'm forbidden to communicate. There was no official phone there. So it went on for three months like that. Well, of course, I was drunk for three months. And after three months, what happened was what happened. They blew up my cell. There were 20 people on duty at the judge's request.

They found absolutely everything. They dug up the walls, they removed the toilet. They really searched me like I'd never seen before and there they found a handmade string a pass to open the lugs, a phone, a chip, a battery, etc. I was entrusted by the director Who came from where? Les Iris, it's the group of intervention

No, but they found this string for what?

You hid it?

It was me I was alone in cell anyway so, necessarily, you don't let me see my family Why did you have a string? Well, for my valets, you don't let me see my family, it's obvious that I'm the one who's going to see them. What did you have? A rope, a pass for the handcuffs, and a phone. How did you find a pass for the handcuffs? We had them brought in.

And they walked with the prison handcuffs?

Yes, of course. With the police handcuffs. Can you bring everyone in jail? Of course you can get everyone in jail. It's a question of means, money, knowledge... So you had a phone, etc. And you pick up every time, you get worse each time. At the same time, I'm in a situation... How much do you take?

You don't even know, you don't have a trial. I don't take anything. You're on preventive.

I'm on preventive. You have the voice of Alban Ivanov What? You have the voice of Alban Ivanov I don't know I don't know if you can tell me If you listen to us If you can put a comment on Spotify If you listen to us on Podcast Audio or on Youtube

You have something Alban Ivanov In the voice, in the laugh, in the thing

We never told you, did we?

No Ok, I'm listening to you Alban No, no, no, no problem. I can't hear to happen like that at all, because... I'm entrusted to the ZERIS, so an intervention group. I'm taken to total isolation, so to Angoulême. I'm changed from prison. And there, I find myself in a kind of isolation,

so cut off from the outside world for a while now, but also cut off from the rest of the detention. So no sport, because even in isolation, you have to be at least 2, but I was forbidden to contact anyone. So, that's the injustice I'm suffering, because I'm here for a reason at the beginning, which doesn't belong to me. I never participated in this trafficking, and I was absolutely not at the origin. And they don't let me see my child, it was a crazy thing. But I have a weapon that I didn't have was that I could write and read. So I wrote everywhere. Really, in the Ministry of Justice, in the customs, in the court of instruction, in the prosecutor's office.

In short, nothing happens. There was just the director of the prison who came to see me, it was about 6-7 months ago, that my son was born. So he comes to see you because he didn't ask anything from anyone. So he said to me, I'm going to contact the judge to try to get you a parlor. Indeed, two weeks later, I have a parlor with my son, his mother, and a watchman locked up with us in the parlor.

I didn't even know it existed, I had never seen it in my life.

You could take it in your arms?

What? Your son, where there was a window? It's like a small room, for those who have never seen a parlor. That's it. There are some who have windows in the parlor, there are some where there is nothing. In fact, there was nothing, but there was a supervisor with us who replaced the window. So there I discover my son and then, leaving, I made him a promise, I told him, I'll come back, I'll come back. So I go back to the cell, I call on absolutely everything, I make temporary requests every day. And you tell yourself in your head that you're stopping everything? Really?

Ah, well, I was no longer on it. You realize that you're wasting your time and your child? I realize that I'm losing everything, when for once I'm not at the origin of it. And your daughter, at that moment? So my daughter, I saw her, it had been a while since I saw her anyway, because she didn't want to go to prison anymore,

and she always wanted me to fail. And what happens is that at some point there is a renewal of the deposition mandate, the judge is wrong, he makes a written statement, he corrects out of my presence,

which is completely illegal, I realize it, I appeal on this deposition mandate, I go to the appeal court and they tell me, here you have appealed on a 4-month deposition mandate, I say no I appealed on a 6-month deposition mandate, the judge looks at the file, he tells me I have a 4-month deposition mandate I bring him the original and I see all the faces transform, I say, ah, there is something that can play I go back to the cell, the day goes by, I hear them close the door in the evening, because he said to release them this afternoon. Well, my husband made me sign, I said, they still found a way to bypass the thing, I'll sign the refusal tomorrow.

The next day, all day long, nothing happens. I say, it's weird anyway. In the evening, they close the door. Half an hour later, I hear the key in the door, I say, bingo. I knew it. It's the director who's there, he tells me, make your pact, you'll be free. Because there was a written agreement, etc. I go out, I see my son's mother, who says to me, I made you a promise, never to leave when you were in prison. Today you're out, it's over. She told me, mom's life is not compatible with the life of a thug's wife.

She told me, I was put on guard, in fact, when I was accused, put in question for this story for which I had nothing to do with she was put on guard duty, for that it was... the drop of a pen. So she said it's over, I could understand, there was no problem. So in my head I said, ok, it's like that, well, go ahead, put the lid back on. I made false papers, I put things in place

and as soon as I could, I left. And you started again? It's out of the question that I go back to prison in these conditions, with a charm that... Because it was just a temporary release. They broke the deposition mandate.

So you had to go back to prison anyway.

Anyway, the prosecutor would have broken the mandate, I would have gone back to prison.

So you went on horseback.

Yeah, I know that. I got on horseback. I got in the center of France, I immediately took a house under a fake name that I furnished A few years later, the famous robber who taught me to read and write, who got out of prison So I told him, listen, I can't stay in France If you want, I put you in this house I give you my 2-3 clients

who are around, I go to Spain I find a guy there in Spain who will bring you the goods you distribute it, we share it We make about 20,000 euros per month, all three So he tells me, I'm going to Spain, I settle down, I manage everything there Where ? In the north of Spain

In Bilbao ?

Yes, exactly

And I tell myself... I was getting bored, I was getting bored completely because I'm used to be in the action, I'm the one who manages And I'm there like a dumbass, stuck on the spot, just to manage, to spend money, and then I was doing anything with the money. And a few months go by, and at some point, he has to deliver customers. I have a customer on the phone, and he tells me, we didn't see him. I say, how come you didn't see him?

I call a second customer, we didn't see him. Me, in my head, my responsibility, he just made 20 cash for a robbery, now he's getting arrested in my business, it's not possible, I have nothing to lose. And I asked the guy who brought the goods, a Spanish guy I was working with, I said, here, find me some weapons, I'm going to get them from the police. And he said, no way, he said, you do that, they doing all these years, take care of him. You should know that this guy, from the day he taught me to read and write, it's been about ten years, I've always done the mandates,

I took care of his wife, of his five kids, I took lawyers, I did what no one ever did for him. And so it's been a while, and then I learn that he was never arrested. I learn that he lives in Toulouse, I found his address And I learned that he stole my money He had a sum of money, of goods, and he decided to leave with all of that

It's only betrayal, right? Yes But you see, life is... Especially today, more and more More and more?

Yes

And so, when I learn that, I think to myself, I'm going to pick him up, it's out of the question that I leave it like that. And in the meantime, I say... What are you going to pick him up with? I'm going to pick him up, I'm going to put him in a trunk and I'm going to get my nose back. And in parallel, I say to my daughter's mother, I say, listen, take my daughter, I would like to see him before I get out of here because I know I won't be able to stay longer. I put three cars on the road to take him to another car. And when he's in the third car, which is driven by one of my clients,

he calls me from a cabin. I say, here you can go into a small village, it's called like that. You take the main road, don't worry, I'll find you. I hang up, and this person, what does she do? She hangs up, she takes the cabin, and she calls him, because I didn't know that he was her accomplice.

Who does she call? The guy who stole my money. Because when he stole the money, he put it in his suit of my big clients. He told them, here, I leave you the merchandise, I only take the watch, and no one saw anything and nobody said anything. They all agreed. So this person called him and said

he found your address, he's going to pick you up. But I know where he is, she gives the address of the village. But I wasn't in this village, I was in another one next door. Except that when he calls, the guy is on the list. Because the girls have been on the list for a while.

And the judge, when he hears that, he says so they all get arrested. I'm not aware of it, actually. But they don't know where I am. I have a European arrest warrant, they're looking for me in Spain, they know they're going to find me. And a month and a half goes by, and after a month and a half, I get arrested. I get arrested on the name of Yannick Delande, because I had fake papers on the name of Yannick Delande. How does an arrest happen? We'll come back to that later, but tell us, because you've been arrested 10 times, 10 times in prison, what's your most improbable arrest?

The most improbable? So that we can understand what an arrest is. Well, this one, for example, I don't expect it, because usually when I get arrested, I get arrested on a flag, or I get arrested because I have a bullet under the car Well, there is another arrest that will happen later that I will tell you that should never have happened because I had nothing to do with the story

In the village, how does it happen?

But there, how does it happen? I have two trucks, I'm walking along the edge of the beach, in the east I'm on the edge of the beach, quietly, I'm waiting for someone to arrive, I have my ex with my son who must have arrived in the day So I was happy to show them to me Then at some point I see a car with a couple in it, who pass in front of me I turn my head, I see a second couple in another car behind, I know it's the cops

Ah you know?

Yeah I know everything You feel it? Yeah I feel it And there I see the two cars They put fake couples? What? They put fake couples? Yes, they are cops And they grab me in front and behind

They call me by my real name But with my fake name And then, in the police station They do the opposite They put my real name with my fake name But they know me because there is a European arrest warrant

They had my picture in it They recognized me So you are a European arrest warrant

An Interpol arrest warrantrants, meaning Interpol,

No, it's European. In fact, you have Interpol arrest warrants that are all over the world, international, and you have European arrest warrants that only concern Europe. So they knew I was in Europe anyway. And so, I was put in prison in Soto del Real, next to Madrid. So that's where we put all the guys who were extradited, a month and a half after I was extradited to France, so I was put back in the Air Force, I arrived in France and there I am, so I pass in front of the prosecutor, he imprisons me and there I learn that I am suing by four courts. The first court, well, it's the one I escaped on, the case that we have to go to the special assistants. The second In the court, I was put in charge for this traffic, for which I was acquitted twice. Because the prosecutor called, I was acquitted, so my innocence was recognized anyway.

But it did not prevent all the damage that was involved behind. And in the other two courts, I am accused of two cases for which the guy was arrested at the North Station with a double background. In fact, it's the others who told me everything about all these things So your past catches up with you on all these things? And there, once...

How long did it take you to accumulate?

6 years, 6 years, 5 years, 8 months of conditional remission of a previous case I end up with 17 years and 8 months in prison for drug trafficking

Closed?

Closed

So there, during the first two years, I'm a pain in the ass. I think one thing is to escape, to take revenge, very clearly. Have you tried to escape?

Yes.

And then?

Twice, it was a failure.

Not easy?

No.

Because even if you're the key to the lockers, there are still 12 doors. I know. and you need tough guys behind you and at the same time, it's a good thing that it didn't happen because I wouldn't be here today. What do you see as the hardest? Is it really violent? Your prison period, because it depends on each prisoner, each prison where you are incarcerated, etc. Do you see a lot of violence?

Is it really hard? Well, after... Well, it's hard, but I'm not talking about violence. No, no, of course. What is violent in prison is the detention center because of the promiscuity, because of the lack of intimacy. A very simple example, during 4 years I was in a cell,

we are 4, you go to the bathroom, there is a wall that is 1.20m high, when you are sitting on the bathroom to shit, you can talk with the guy who is on the middle bed, on the top bed. Just to do his needs in front of someone else, you may have a little wall, but there are noises, there are smells. So already, just that, it's humiliating, humanly. What is violent is when you find yourself in isolation, like I found myself, deprived of seeing your children, deprived of all mail,

or no one has your news for things you haven't committed. That was extremely violent. When an instruction judge, because he has this power, goes beyond everything that is allowed in the intention of breaking you that's extremely violent What did you learn from those years in prison? From those 22 years in prison?

What I learned from those 22 years in prison is that, first of all the only wrongdoer in history is you it's you because no one forced you so you could blame a thousand people

saying I didn't choose my child, I didn't choose this, etc. But you're the only one responsible. I'll give a very stupid example. For a long time, I wanted people to throw me out. But even for that, the only reality is that I'm the only one responsible because nobody forced me to give them values ​​they didn't have.

I made that mistake. That's one of the first lessons the prison taught me. Nobody forced me to give them values they didn't have. I made that mistake. That's one of the first lessons prison taught me. The second is that we are all capable of changing. I learned to read and write, I passed my degrees, even though I was made to believe the opposite during my entire childhood.

I also found, contrary to what one might imagine, a lot of humanity in prison. I experienced a real solidarity from a lot of humanity in prison. I've known a lot of solidarity from a lot of people. Of course, a lot of violence, but often they take it to the lowest. It's often young people who are so lost themselves, that they take it to the lowest to try to exist,

to try to show themselves, a facade that doesn't correspond at all to their personality. But as an old man, the problem doesn't arise. There is a real respect, there's no problem. What's the real luxury in prison? That you can pay with money.

The real luxury is to have a lawyer who can get you out before the time. Clearly. Clearly, because the rest, everything you can have in your cell, it doesn't take away the confinement. Today, that's what I hope, even when I intervene, is that even if you have money, which is obviously not the case for everyone, it's not because you have a Playstation, a Cheney or a computer.

In the evening, when you're in your bed, you're not there to educate your children and they're not doing well, the pain is there. When you have a funeral in which you can't attend, when I lost my father, the phone, she was already a certain age, she told me, coming home from work, I got my bag ripped off, the guy dragged me on the floor, I'm not even there to take her in my arms, I'm not even there to catch him, that bastard who did that to her,

to catch him by the hair, I'm not there to heal her, I'm not there. And that's really hard. What have you seen of crazy people entering a prison? What is the most improbable object you've seen entering? I don't know, I've seen so many things. I couldn't tell you the object because I've seen so many, but a simple example. I'm in Nantes, I'm transferred to a disciplinary transfer after my attempted suicide.

I arrive in a prison in Rennes, in the middle of the city I arrive in a walkway and a guy from the city comes to see me when he heard I arrived, we have common knowledge he says to me, yeah, you want to make a phone call? so he sends me a phone in the walkway I thank him, I don't know him, I make a phone call and in less than 5 minutes I see 30, 40 phones coming out, while there's a guerrilla, the guy up there, he sees us, nobody hides, phones everywhere.

And while I'm talking, I hear everyone, Yeah, go ahead, take a kebab, yeah, go ahead, take it. I don't pay too much attention, but I still hear it. So I give him his phone, and he says, what do you want to eat? Do you want a kebab? Well, if you want.

What sauce? I tell him Algerian. Ok, go ahead, don't move.

packages coming over the wall.

But when I tell you, 30, 40, 50 packages.

They let them do everything Yes, everything was allowed I could have put weapons There were some Not firearms, but knives If you take out a firearm, I think they shoot you Yes, certainly If they see a firearm, it doesn't stop there There are packages that fall from the other side of the fence

So there is a guy who says to the other Go get me the pliers He brings the pliers back I see him cutting the fence to get the thing in front of the guerrilla. That, that's what I missed. Where was it?

It was in Rennes. It doesn't exist anymore. Now it's the new one. It's a modern prison. But that's something that will be...

He cuts the fence in front of the...

He cut the fence, normal. He tries to catch the packages. But really, in front of him, 1 meter away, it was the watch he was holding Too late, I got him And normal, he opens his stuff, normal It was a crazy thing, this prison Have you ever thought about committing suicide in prison? Was there a moment when it was too much for you? It can... you know...

When I was 40, I got drunk with a watchman, I spit on his face I took 30 days of Mith days, I was revolted because the supervisor was looking for the stories and then, once the anger started to leave you have to know that the Métars, it's like prison in prison you feel like you're nothing, even less than nothing and in fact, you're facing yourself, you don't have any escape

you can't do sports, you can't watch TV, you can't cook. And everything goes back to the surface. It's the disciplinary district. It's a prison cell, but a bit like being put in a cellar, except that your cell is totally empty. And there, really, you don't see anyone, you don't talk to anyone,

you have no escape, in fact. You're really facing yourself, facing your life, a bit like if you were looking at yourself from the inside in a mirror. And in fact, everything is going up to the surface. So the first thing... Does it make you feel good? Because when you say that, with yourself, it's good sometimes too.

Not to take your time. It all depends on your life. It's true if you have a castle, that you be taken for positive, that's why I said that. You're alone with yourself, it's nice to have time. Yeah, it was, but it was until... But not when it's forced. It was until everything went up to the surface.

If I had a spare window in my life, in the same conditions, it would have gone without any problem.

You don't have a TV?

No, there's nothing. There's nothing? What do you do? Do you have a book? They give you 2 books per day, but often they lack pages, so it's good You read, you think, I don't know what happened there But you have your pen, you can write, you pump a little And it doesn't take you 24 hours, and 30 days is long But beyond that, it's not serious

Because I did a lot of guitar, so it's not what I wanted But it's just that at some point, I'm in a period of my life that's quite special And when everything goes back to the surface, I tell myself, I'm 40 years old I'm sentenced to 17 years in prison What do I have left to live after? My life is over when I'm going to get out And then I tell myself, my mother, she's a certain age

I'm not even sure I'll be able to see her free from her living

And my kids, well I don't see them because they are 400, 500, 600 km away

That, that devours me from the inside

My own brother, I mean, I gave him money, I took care of him He still has the building?

Yeah

You never saw him again?

No, he never did anything But well And I would would not want to do it again. And then, the betrayal of my fellow pseudos, people I've been hanging out with for 15 years, you are our birthdays, we go on vacation, I take care of their children,

all that, it's starting to go up, up, up, and besides, you should know that I had just lost all the money I had put aside, since they took everything from me, between the fellow pseudos are used left and right they have acquired from my mother in short, my immeuble, I was absolutely taken the last money I had abroad

it was to pay my three lawyers and settle and there I tell myself, go you have a big boy, you played, you lost, it may be time to turn off the switch so I shout to my children, I shout to my mother and I wait for the watchman to pass,, so I hear the fence opening, I hear him looking at a

turnip, two turnips, he arrives at my door, he looks, I hear him leave, he opens the fence, he closes it behind him, so I put my letters in plain sight on the table and I deflate my sheet, I put it on the barrow, I pass it around my neck fact, the watchman pretends to leave. He takes out the alarm, the step, which next to him, he opens the door, he takes off absolutely all the cell, and this watchman comes back ten minutes later, and he tells me, listen, I'm the last person to have my place next to you, because my father was killed by a thug, but I'm going to take the time to me, you know, in life you have the right to be fed up with it, you have the right to want to end it, it's legitimate, it's your right.

But there's one thing you're not allowed to do, it's to leave a legacy to your children. And that's a sentence that shook me, that resonated with me, because I thought, it's true that I wrote to my children, but when did I think how they were going to be able to continue to build themselves after that? And I told myself, my own mother, she lost her daughter, her second child in these conditions, but I would have screwed her, my mother. And I hadn't thought about that. And that was really the first day of my reconstruction.

I told myself, the road is going to be long, but I'm going to get it all back. To finish, talk about the sequel, after when you're going to go out, it's important in your construction too, you will have a permission to... You will get a permission to be baptized. Yeah, so... In this case, I was an atheist, I always was...

I didn't believe in anything. And at some point, I found faith in prison. I didn't go looking for it, it just came to me. I didn't know anything about religion, because we worked a lot on forgiveness. I talked to my prison visitor, who became my friend and who became my godfather too. And so we talked about baptism, so I asked to be baptized.

I got out on parole to be baptized, my prison visitor was my godfather. My probationary counselor came as well. And the hominids who were were there came to my baptism as well. So that's something that really changed a lot of things in me because beyond the faith, it also allowed me to discover empathy, to live it together, this hand also extended to others

because if I got out of it, it's because a lot of people extended their hand to me and so it taught me to extend my hand to others.

And so I was released shortly after, so the first year was very, very complicated. A lot of people gave me a hand, and it taught me to give a hand to others.

So I was released a short time after, so the first year was very complicated. In 2019? In 2019, in October. It was complicated because when you get out of prison, you can say to yourself, that's it, I paid all my debts, I don't owe anything to society, and I'm starting a new life again, except that it doesn't happen like that. It doesn't happen like that because, well, I already have a tenant's lease that I will pay until the end of my life, that I have been paying for 20 years. It doesn't happen like that because when you look for work, you are asked for your

lawyer's card. So for a year, I applied for 10 jobs a day, I was asked everywhere. And it's only after a year that COVID comes, COVID confinement. and I applied for a night watch position in a migrant shelter association I show up the next day the head of the service told me that it was a replacement for a month she told me that I would have my ID card and my vital card

she told me that she didn't ask for the police station because it was closed during the lockdown so I started this job

15 days later, so I've been there for 15 days during the lockdown. So yeah, great. So I start this job.

15 days later, so I've been there for 15 days, I have an employer who knows my past, in front of whom I introduced myself. He tells me, listen, I need someone from tomorrow to work as an escape expert.

Well, I told him, I don't know anything about it, I'm not crazy or anything. But he tells me, it's nothing, you're an smart guy, you see traces on a wall, you know what's behind it. He told me it's nothing. He told me, listen, come tomorrow morning, I'll put you 5 clients, I'll do the first one with you, and then you'll figure it out. I said, if you think I can do it, I'll do it.

It's a CD, I never have any Sorry, I can't come with you, you have some material, I don't know how it works I look at you on the internet, I leave like that But today, 5 years later, I'm the one who's training all the new employees And the work of the evening... I'm still there, yes

You really stabilized yourself from that day on?

Completely But, in fact, I had to do this last passage in prison so that things were put in place in my head to solidify it I also had to write my autobiography It's a whole We're going to talk about your association What do you regret the most in your career?

You chose a life of voyeur You say it's a choice Even if you had a difficult childhood you say that very precisely What do you regret? If you really had something you regretted in your career?

So, often I'm asked if I regret the career that I had. Very clearly, I don't regret it for a simple reason. It's also all this career that makes me the man I am today, with my values, with my principles. So I don't regret it, to have lived this life. Now, obviously, I have a million regrets of this life. If it had to be redone, I would not sell drugs, I would not make my mother cry as much as I could make her cry,

I had to create my children, I would not give them this life without a father. There are so many things that I would change. In addition, as I always say, indirectly, I still participated in what has become drug trafficking today. And that, of course, is one of my biggest regrets. That's also why I decided to create my association, that I decided to intervene with young people to do as much prevention as possible.

Your association is called Murmure. Yes, so we created an association called Murmure. We do prevention, delinquency, recidivism. We do awareness raising on prison realities because I'm tired of seeing kids fantasizing about prison, after seeing what's going on on social media, which is far from reality.

On the realities of drug trafficking, because it's easy to book a youngster by telling him, you do 4 hours of drugs a day, you have 100 euros a day, the kid waits 30 days, 3000 bucks, what job is he going to give me that? Except that we don't tell him that the day there is merchandise that he will be caught, he will be burst in the cellar, and there he will have to pay the merchandise with interest, and there it's only the beginning of a very, very big problem, so it's important

to... and I also intervene with business leaders to raise awareness about the issue of re-insertion, because as I always say, a detainee to re-insert Well, they are victims, at least behind. So, with my wife, we created our association. We financed ourselves. Your new wife, not the one you had as a child.

With my new, my only wife, and the one I will end my life with. You met her 6 years ago? I met her 6 years ago, I was still in prison. What does she work in? She is a governess. Someone who is the opposite of my old life but with a different... And how do you meet her in prison?

On the internet?

So it's a very big story which is important I wrote my autobiography, it's my last two years in prison I finish my autobiography and I tell myself, well, it might be time to reconnect a little with the outside it's the first time I've spent two years of my life without anyone I cut myself off from the outside world

So I have my computer, and a friend comes out and says, let me log in to the 4G network through a surveillant we know. I log in on the internet, I create a profile on a website. But without looking for it anymore. One night I sat on my bed and I said to myself, there is a girl on earth who is made for me.

A girl, the one I need. And I would really like to meet her today, but for me it's not possible, because if she accepted the man I am today, with the situation I'm in, it can't be her, because a girl attracted by thugs, I don't care. And I say, but you up there,

you're the only one who knows where this girl is going, you're the only one who knows how this...

You're talking about God?

God. I said, there's only you who knows how this link is possible, I'm not asking you anything else. And so, three days go by, I'm connected of course, I'm cooking, I put the info in, and I hear a little clink on the computer. I say, ah, I take the pan off the plate, I lower the sound, I sit down, and then I see a little good evening. In prison you say? I'm in prison, I'm on my computer, I have an illegal internet connection with this 4G key that I got through the watchman and so no pictures

we talk for 3 hours and at the end of the 3 hours I know it's her I have absolutely no idea

I don't even know what to do without her

And what network does she talk to you on? It was a dialogue site not a meeting site, a dialogue site because she is a woman who has been married for 27 years she had a man in her life, she has been separated for 2 years And one day she told her daughter, I'm going nowhere, I'm not talking to anyone, I'm working, I'm at home I would like to be able to talk to people who live the same thing as me

So her daughter creates a profile for her on the same site And so there, she sees my photo, I don't know, she talked to him So she sends me a good evening, we talk for 3 hours, and after 3 hours I know it's her.

And you tell her you're in jail?

No, I don't tell her, I just tell her, so we exchange our numbers, I tell her, if you send me a message during the day, don't be surprised if I don't answer you, I'll never put my phone with me during the day. She didn't ask any questions, we call each other, I say, I'm not going to turn around In life we all make choices, good choices, bad choices And each choice has its consequences

Today I'm paying the consequences of my bad choices, I'm in prison So the cold shower, she told me Nothing will ever happen between us But then she told me, in 3 days, I saw you're a guy with values, principles I'm not gonna add bars and bars to you, you're already in jail So she told me we can stay friends, so I said ok And the next days, she told me, you're sure it's in the past I told her, I wrote my autobiography, if you want I'll read you a chapter every night

So I read her a chapter every night And after 15 days, the feelings were on both sides. The most magical thing in our story, you have to know that when we talk, I'm 500 km away from her, so building a relationship at 500 km is complicated. In addition, with a guy in the hall, it's even more complicated, except that in reality, I'm going out

and my mother, I'm going to go to my mother's house, my mother lives 10 minutes from her house. The second coincidence is that when I go out, the first interview I have with a journalist lives in the same street as her. The third coincidence is that the International Prison Observatory, with whom she has absolutely nothing to do, are in the same street as her and today we work a lot together.

There are synchronicities like that. But how? It's the synchronicities, weird. But even more than that, by the force of knowing each other now, of talking, we realized that about 20 times in our lives, I lived where she worked, and she lived where I worked. It's not possible that we didn't at least meet on the sidewalk,

except that here, we realize that, in my opinion, nothing is possible. And even before seeing her, I wrote in my book that I had a second meeting with the one who will become my wife, and with whom I would learn the true meaning of the word love. I had never seen her before. The only thing I knew was what she had told me. Don't worry, I'm a drinker.

You discovered her physically, for real?

Yeah, I discovered her only after... You didn't know what she looked like?

No.

But no.

But I knew it was her, I had absolutely no doubt. You discovered her and you didn't send them to anyone on the internet. And you weren't afraid? No.

What if I fall in love with someone who doesn't like me?

She told me she was potable, but she was more than potable, she's a treasure. She's a real diamond. But for me, I knew the person from the inside, but I had no doubt. We were talking about forgiveness earlier, with religion, we finished. Did you manage to forgive your brother? It's not easy to forgive. It's not easy, but at the same time, what made me look for forgiveness

was that I thought I'd get out of prison and sooner or later, with my brother, we'd meet at my mother's. Except that if we see each other in conflict, even if we don't argue, if we see each other with coldness, it's my mother who's going to suffer. And she doesn't deserve that. And anyway, if you love me, you would give it to me. At that moment, I wouldn't want it anymore because today I became a believer.

And dirty money, I don't care. I wouldn't want it at all. You can give me whatever you want, I won't, it's up to him to carry it. And the proof is that he's had it for 20 years, he's never done anything with it. So I'm not going to forgive him because... at the same time, no one forced him to trust me. Once again, I made him trust me. It was your choice, right? I made the choice to trust him.

What was the most difficult thing, last question, when you get out of jail? The world has changed in 12 years. Some countries have disappeared, others have changed, borders have been broken, cars have evolved, technologies, AI...

What catches your eye when you get out in 2019?

For me, it hasn't been the hardest thing, because today you still have TV in jail, so you can follow the evolution.

New cars, even, the news

That happens to me at some point But we still see things, we can stay informed, we go on the internet We still manage to, even if it's illegal, to stay a little informed In addition, I always had a contact with the outside world So every night I was connected, I had my head outside the prison, so I followed all the evolution After, what was the hardest, it was really to adapt to this world,

because since I got out, it's still the case today, it's been 6 years, I'm unable to sleep 8 hours in a row without waking up. When I got out, I woke up about 20 times every night. Because in prison, as I was particularly watched, my light was turned on every 2 hours, they hit my eye, they said, move your arm, move your foot. That's how it was. To show that you weren't dead.

I wasn't dead, I wasn't evaded. And when you go out, all these things remain unconsciously. But today I can only wake up 5 or 6 times. But I never went back for 8 hours in a row. With your association, you have a mobile cell. Can you talk about it to finish?

I'll put the link if you want to go see the association directly from Yannick, of your false name and your false name, but Yannick Deslandes, if you want to go see his association which is called Murmur, I'll put the link in the description. What is this mobile cell to finish?

In fact, I was always watching videos where we see cells, a little bit luxurious, the way of speaking, and I was fed up with hearing people say that prison is the club-maid. When I hear a politician say on TV that prison is the club-maid, I say to myself, what message do you send to teenagers? You tell them, there is no need to be afraid, it's the club-maid. And the victims, how can a victim rebuild herself if you start... if a minister makes her believe that finally the author of the facts for which she became a victim,

we don't send her to prison, but we send her to a Club Med. And I tell myself, that's not possible. And one day I'm with the International Prison Observer, they have a removable cell and...

A pit, of course.

Yeah, a pit, of course. There's no noise, there's no smell, there was no noise, no smell, no noise. It's very good what they do, because it allows to raise awareness. But I think a lot of things were missing. And especially the people who came, they were already raised. And I tell myself, in fact, we have to bring the prison to those who will not come to the prison. And we have to push these kids to show them this reality, because they are very far from ignoring it. And so I make the decision to create our association. With my wife, we made a 10,000 euros loan. We bought a remorque-fourgon in which we reconstructed a prison cell.

With a superimposed bed, a table, a telephone booth, with all the traces of humidity, dirt, toilets, lack of intimacy. We really reconstructed everything with graffiti and all that.

The state in which you saw them?

In the detention centers. So it's really cells of old detention centers, because it's the most numerous establishments in France. And it's in these establishments that everyone will pass before going to the central or detention center. And today, we really go all over France. We go to the priority neighborhoods,

we go to the cities, to the business leaders, to the victims. And every time, when I intervene, I see 15 days ago a kid comes in and says to me, I thought you had everything in the cell when you arrive. I said no, because in fact in a cell, when you see your videos, you will realize that there is only one bed in the cell.

So already you are not in a detention center. So you are at least in a CED or in a Central. Except that to get to a CED or a Central, tell yourself that it's been about 4 years that you've been in jail for about 4 years. Except that when you arrive in a cell, it's empty. So the time to be able to buy all these things, it will still take 2-3 years. So that means that the cells you see, the guy has been in a cell for about 7 years.

And he has, why, 2-3 thousand euros in his cell? Well, I told him, you work outside, in a He comes out, he says to his friends, he says, no, no, no, I don't want to go, I'm stopping the security. That's really what we wanted to get through. And with the business leaders, it's also to explain to them that a guy who barely studies in these conditions, with this lack of intimacy, with the noise, because we put the noise of the prison? It's the guys who scream at the windows, it's the guys who scream in the lockers,

it's the noise of the keys, the gates, the doors, it's the loudspeakers, the talkie-walkies, it's all those noises that are there all the time, from morning to night, and that never stop, except at night. And a guy is killed there, And you say to them, maybe they deserve a real job Not a job as a sub

I always remind them that a prisoner of reinsertion is less likely to be a victim So that's what we do today We do prevention, especially with young people What do you need? What do we need? Volunteers, already

Because today we really carry everything on our shoulders It's really about volunteering and nothing else. I will put the link if you are interested. It will be a pleasure.

Thank you Yannick for coming.

Thank you for having me. Yannick Deslandes, thank you for taking the time to tell us about your journey and the lessons you have learned. It's interesting to see life today and you try to give, finally, to give advice. It's very important, the proof, for example,

what you do, to show, having lived things, having done bullshit, to say, in fact, it wasn't the right path for me. And it has more impact than someone who has done nothing, who will tell them, I think. But at the same time, as I always say,

prison doesn't fix anything. Today I feel like I'm fixing my bad choices. And at the same time, if I'm here today, it's also because I've been held by the hand. So what's more normal than waiting for my turn? And just to finish on that, I have a kid who contacted me two or three months ago, his Messenger, and he tells me, you intervened on a penal repair training with minors. I was in the group and he told me, your testimony touched me so testimony, it gave me so much to work on, I wanted to tell you, I followed your advice, I left my neighborhood,

I joined the army, I'm a reservist today, I have a job, I'm developing a passion for photography, he sent me lots of pictures of the landscape he had taken, I told myself, it's no use to me. Do you see your children again? Do you see them more often? No. Not yet? Not yet. My son... The problem is that his mother didn't want him to go to prison. By mistake.

By mistake, because... To see you? To visit you? She didn't want him to see the prison. She told him, your father works far away. Except that what I explained to him is that kids at school, with their father who works far away, there are plenty of them,

except that on the weekend, they see their father. But when he doesn't see him, what will he think at the end? Basically, he doesn't want to see me, he doesn't love me. And he knew the reality long after, but we didn't build a bond. When we saw each other, he's a stranger, I see him as my son, but a stranger. And when he sees me, he's my father, this stranger. So, well, he's 18, he's grow up and at some point he will discover me I will offer my book, he may have answers

And my daughter, it's different, we built a bond with her The first time she said I love you she was 18 Today we both know that we love each other very much But we are in conflict because she has a life that doesn't suit me That doesn't suit me But I am responsible for it

because I wasn't there Thank you for your transparency Thank you for having me and for letting me testify Thank you to the whole team for preparing the show We meet every Wednesday, every Friday

every Sunday on Legend for an interview or a documentary The show on Tuesday, Legend Story, presented by Lola, a journalist Thank you for being so numerous a documentary, the show of Tuesday, also Legend Story, presented by Lola, journalist. Anyway, thank you for being so numerous, if ever it tells you to go and do like Yannick Dédante today, do not hesitate to send us an email, it really works, you can confirm it, really.

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and thank you for making Legend the first podcast in France. I send you a big hug, we'll see each other soon for a new video. I send you a big hug, we'll see each other soon for a new video.

Ciao everyone! Thanks for watching guys!