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Ukraine fires 600 drones at Russia in a single night | Latest war news updates today

Ukraine: The Latest28 views
0:00

I'm Francis Dernley, and this is Ukraine, the Latest.Today, after a weekend that may have seen a record number of drones launched across Ukraine and Russia, we examine what it's actually like to endure a ballistic missile attack and how different that experience is from a drone barrage.Then, as Kiev and other cities come under constant bombardment from weapons Ukrainian air defences cannot reliably intercept, we assess the arguments made by some that Ukraine's increasingly ambitious strikes inside Russia could give Putin the pretext he needs to mobilise hundreds of thousands more men.We also answer your questions about what Kiev can realistically do to solve its missile crisis and reveal why President Trump appeared to have reversed course over giving Ukraine the blueprints needed to manufacture a Patriot missiles.It's Monday, the 10th of August, four years and 167 days since the full -scale invasion began.And today, dialling in from Kiev, I'm joined by freelance journalist Antonia Langford and joining us from Washington, RAND engineer Michael Bohnert.

1:03

But first, the update for today.Like last Monday's episode with Dom, we'll cover the updates thematically rather than chronologically, giving us space to explore the questions they raise with our guests.Russia is claiming today Ukraine fired over 600 drones in a single night.And if so, that would be a record.But I'm going to start with one of the key topics of the moment, Moscow's ballistic missile attacks and Kyiv's inability to stop them.Saturday saw yet another attack against the Ukrainian capital and surrounding suburbs, killing four, including a three -year -old child and injuring eight, local authorities reported.

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Europe, the US and Ukraine have long wanted to end the war, President Zelensky said in a post.Only Putin doesn't want to and is clinging to his ballistic missiles and drones to keep the war going.The defence ministry claimed to have intercepted only 29 of the 195 ballistic missiles Russia launched in July, a grim milestone indeed.One of the targets this weekend was believed to be the Kiev -11 firepoint plant, the defence company developing long -range weapons, including the Flamingo cruise missile.We'll talk about Russia's strike objectives shortly with Michael, but first, let's go to Antonia in Kiev, who's experienced these mass attacks over the last few months.Antonia, thanks very much for your time and your reporting.

2:20

Can you describe for us the difference between experiencing a ballistic missile strike versus a drone one.

2:27

Well, I can say, of course, it's never pleasant to experience either, but they are a completely different kettle of fish, really.So the attacks that we're used to when it comes to drones, they tend to come at fairly predictable times.We have rules that we can use against them, you know, the sort of two wall rule, for example.And crucially, we really trust our air defense to repel these.Of course, Kyiv has one of the best air shields in the world.It comprises a lot of different systems, domestic interceptor drones, mobile fire teams.

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We have electronic warfare, helicopters, other aircraft.And we really kind of trust these at this stage.Ukraine does hit down a lot of the drones that are sent its way.When it comes to these ballistics, they can really come at any time.They come in these incredibly dense barrages and you hardly get any warning.So, for example, the attack last Tuesday, I think we got a little under two minutes of warning.

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And that was actually quite good by recent standards.A lot of times there's been no warning at all.Sometimes the explosions even happen actually before you hear the air raid sirens.I think on Saturday we had about five five seconds of warning.And these attacks have been kind of tending to hit.Some of them have been daytime, which is also rare, but they've been tending to hit sort of between midnight and, you know, seven, eight a .

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m.So it's not particularly good for any of our sleep.I think the psychological element is really key here.The fact that we have no patriots, we know there's no way we can beat back these missiles and that wherever they are aimed, they will hit.And I can say, obviously, just kind of psychologically, the experience of going through these battlesyou know, it's right now, on average, once every three days is really unpleasant.

4:00

I remember we've had a lot of storms in Kiev lately and a lot of thunder and lightning.And I was with a group of friends and we were sort of sometimes jumping a little bit when we heard the lightning and the thunder.I was going, don't worry, it's just the And I remember one thing that one of my friends said that stuck with me was, actually, I'm not scared of it because I can tell it's not a missile, because when it's a missile, the whole building's shaking.So if you imagine those kind of hitting maybe once every 20, 30 seconds for a period of about half an hour, it's psychologically a terrifying experience.

4:28

Well, thank you, Antonia, for speaking to us about this.I thought it was important today to underscore the difference because we have been talking about them quite often simultaneously, but they are very, very different experiences, as you say.I wonder if I could just ask one more question on this before we carry on with the updates.And that is about the deadly nature of these missiles.There has been an uptick in the number of people killed as a consequence of them.I mean, drones are deadly enough.

4:50

But can you just comment on how much more dangerous a ballistic missile strike is?How much more deadly when one hits a building?

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Yeah, well, as I've mentioned, there's really no rule when it comes to these ballistic missiles, people have no chance to get to the shelter, and they could come at any time.So most people are kind of stuck in their apartments when they hit in that, you know, when there are ballistic missiles, you can get behind two walls, it could help.But sort of if it comes barreling into your apartment building, that's really going to do very little.And I think we've seen such record levels of casualties and fatalities among Ukrainians in recent months because of these attacks.They really are very deadly.And also emergency services have been talking repeatedly about this uptick in double tap strikes as well.

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Sometimes people have even mentioned actually triple tap strikes.And those have also been some of the kind of deadliest impacts of this kind of increased period of bombardment.A lot of the people who have been injured and who have died tragically are actually emergency service workers.

5:45

Thank you, Antonia.We'll come back to you later on.Carrying on with the Russian air attack.hit on Russia's Wild Breeze sites.There don't seem to have been any more of those over the weekend as far as we can tell, but we are of course monitoring it.Odessa and its port also continued to take a hammering.

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Russia fired more than 200 missiles and drones in one attack that injured eight.One on Friday damaged one of Ukraine's largest football stadiums.The roof was partially destroyed, while the glazing and spectator stands were also damaged.Before the invasion, it hosted UEFA competition matches, as well as international fixtures involving Ukraine's national team.According to Kyiv's youth and sports ministry, this brings the tally to over 915.sports infrastructure facilities that have been destroyed over the course of the war.

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We'll have more on Odessa in tomorrow's episode, as well as an extended reflection on key sectors of the front lines, such as Krematorsk.But for now, it's enough to say that despite considerable activity, there was no substantial movement.One other Russian attack worth drawing particular attention to, it's been confirmed a World Health Organization warehouse in Dnipro was also destroyed.It reportedly contained humanitarian medical supplies bound for the front.Staff from the UN's health agency managed to evacuate 130 of some 300 hundred pallets worth of aid before that strike.For more on the work of WHO in Ukraine and the risks for health workers, I'd point you to the interview I did with Dr. Jano Harbit last Wednesday, who heads their Ukraine operation.

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We'll link to that again in the show notes.But on the subject of Russian strikes, let's bring in Michael Bonat now.Michael, welcome.Lots of listeners have sent in questions relating to Patriot missiles, which we'll get to later.But first of all, a more fundamental one.What exactly is the Russian strategy with these strikes and for the war more generally, in your view?

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There is no evidence that a breakthrough on the front lines is feasible and any mobilisation is unlikely to profoundly change that.So how do they hope to win the war?in your view?

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8:49

which is kind of a strange goal and doesn't make a lot of sense.At the same time, it does appear that they believe that terror attacks will cause Ukraine to give up, which historically does not work.

9:04

I also wonder whether there is perhaps an objective from the Russians to essentially make Ukraine a no longer functioning state.So encouraging people to leave the kind of ballistic missile attacks that Antonio has just been describing, which has led to more people leaving the capital, obviously trying to trigger a collapse on the economy, political destabilization.The hope is, is that they may not be able to seize the country by conventional military means, but to degrade the country to such an extent that it becomes essentially something of a rump state almost in Europe.I mean, that would be how they might articulate it.I wonder if you've got any thoughts on that before we move on with the updates.

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Yeah, I can see that in that point of view.I think the fundamental issue right now is, if you look systemically, because how Russia is so much larger than Ukraine, they rely on their infrastructure so much more.And if you destroy things, it can take much longer to get alternatives.So in a blow by blow case, this is one where Russia has more to lose, because Ukraine can always get support from elsewhere.

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Well, thanks very much, Michael.More from you later on The Patriots.As I say, let's turn to Ukraine strikes over the weekend.Perhaps the most significant one coming from Kiev, knowing it can't shoot down the missiles, is strikes on a launcher instead.So their drone struck an S -400 anti -aircraft missile launch pad in the Krasnodar region on the night of the 8th, hours after that launcher had fired missiles at Ukraine.The position was ablaze and sputtering for three hours.

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The head of the Unmanned Systems Forces wrote.Ukraine also claimed to have scored direct hits on an oil refinery in Samara Oblast and another in southern Russia's Krasnodar Krai on the same night, leading to fires breaking out at both.The former is over 1 ,000 kilometres away from Kiev.Another refinery in Tatarstan, over 800 kilometres east of Moscow, was also hit.One Ukrainian drone crashed in Bulgarian airspace near the Romanian border, prompting Kyiv to deny intentionally targeting Bulgaria and promising an inquiry.It exploded about 1 ,000 metres from a Trans -Balkan gas pipeline compressor station, and that triggered a political row in the countries involved as it seemingly wasn't detected.

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Bulgaria's defence ministry added nothing suggests that this was a deliberate incident.countries that support Kyiv are keen to make it clear they don't equate Ukraine's stray droneswith Russia's, perhaps because of intelligence reports that Moscow is seeking to probe NATO defences, as we spoke about on Friday's episode.Before we move more directly into the diplomatic realm, Michael, another quick question for you.Kurt in Washington State asks, something seems to have changed in the past several months in terms of Ukraine's ability to strike at longer distances with drones.What changed and why did not occur six months ago or more?

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Well, part of it is simply Ukraine has a lot more drone production.So they're able to fire many more drones.And what happens is called saturation.So if I fire four drones at a target, and their defenses can shoot down six, well, those four will likely get shot down.If I can shoot eight drones and they can only shoot down six, two more go through.So you're seeing the effect of quantity having a quality all of its own.

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Another part is Ukraine has spent a lot of effort over the past year attacking Russian air defenses.So we're also seeing the long -term effects of that.

12:37

Thank you, Michael.Now, before that question, I was talking about Russian probing of NATO defences, and there have been a few updates for you on the case of that drone at the German airport, one of the main stories last week.German security services are now investigating at least six suspicious drone flights over a Bundeswehr base in Mechernich, which houses an underground logistics facility and repairs US -made Patriot air defence systems.It's known as Europe's only Patriot shipyard.The flights occurred overnight on the 7th of August, with police and military personnel observing the drones.So two days after that security incident involving unknown drones at Leipzig airport, which we now learn did trigger a meeting of the German National Security Council.

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Also on Deutschland, Politico reports concerns that Europe's gas reserves are unusually low, raising concernsabout winter shortages if the war in Iran continues and cold weather increases demand.Germany is particularly vulnerable because it consumes the most gas and holds more than 20 percent of EU storage capability, yet its reserves are only 47 percent full.Apparently, Berlin is resisting calls to direct state -controlled energy companies to buy gas, arguing that market intervention could increase prices.and worsen supply conditions.An interesting story, that.

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Now, energy is one of the key reasons for Serbia's traditionally strong relationship with Moscow.And just a quick update on Zelensky's meeting with Serbian President Aleksandar Vucic in Belgrade on his first official visit to the country last week.As we reported, Zelensky had said it was mainly to discuss economic ties.But while he was there, he also reiterated Kiev's position that Kosovo is not an independent state, sparking outrage in Kosovo.also, who have since removed the Ukrainian flag from one of their municipal buildings.What story do you want to start with?

14:55

I guess we should start with this piece I did on the Kremlin orchestrating this really deep crackdown recently on political voices that expressed dissent specifically on the war ahead of state general elections in September.There's a sense of real sort of anxiety and threat in the Kremlin around people articulating opposition to the fighting.And I look in my article at the idea that this kind of so -called systemic opposition, which refers to the nominally rival parties which have long been used to kind of present an illusion of pluralism, whilst actually theyof serve the interests of the Kremlin.Even this now has kind of become too risky to tolerate.And I think probably the most important thing to preface this with is that, of course, any real opposition figures in Russia have either been exiled or murdered.

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But we can see this kind of crackdown on so -called systemic opposition.Firstly, you discussed it on the podcast before.Boris Nadezhdin, one of the country's most prominent anti -war politicians, being forced to flee.He's actually opposed the war for years and he's held this kind of decades long career within the system.In fact, previously, he was actually accused of being a sort of Kremlin marionette to pretend the opposition is allowed to exist.And he has now been forced to flee, sorry, kind of in fear for his life.

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And we can also see it in the fact that at least 23 politicians have been banned from standing in the ballot.That's just over the past few months.They've been charged on They've been charged with displaying extremist or Nazi symbols, oftentimes that's images or symbols associated with the late opposition leader Alexei Navalny.Those posts were years ago and have been sought out now to expel them from this vote.In one case, for example, a candidate was banned from standing for wearing a rainbow t -shirt.Most of these barred candidates are from Jabloko.

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Jabloko is the sole party contesting the election to have adopted an openly anti -war stance.In fact, its slogan this year was for peace and freedom.But it's sort of now suffering from that decision that's been taught for months and months that it could be barred.And in fact, its deputy leader is already behind bars alongside seven other members.But it looks for a while like the Kremlin might let it take part.Until last week, a nationalist party in Russia filed a lawsuit to bar the party on the basis of discrediting Russia and discrediting the elections.

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And that is now being considered today by Russia's Supreme Court.We've seen protesters gathering outside the court in support of the party, but it looks like it may not be allowed to contest the election after all.And that's quite significant.in a sense, I would add, just as a sort of last thing.Jabluka has no seats in national parliament.It has a handful in regional parliaments.

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It's not this sort of particularly significant party.It had been projected to win a tiny single digit score.That's like technically not even enough to qualify it for parliament.But some kind of more recent polling has showed that maybe 18 percent of voters would consider voting for them, which would be a serious upset.And we can really only put that down to the fact it's the only party kind of representing the faction in society that does want the war to be over.

17:51

Well, thank you for talking us through that, Antonia.There's another story that you've written for The Telegraph that I just felt we had to cover.Not that it's a surprising story necessarily, but still, I think one that many will find quite shocking.And this is how Russia is turning Ukraine's fallen soldiers into propaganda.

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18:09

Yeah, so this is about Oleg Melnichenko, who is the kind of rather overzealous governor of Russia's Penza region.And he published a video last week to his Telegram channel, which showed him brandishing belongings of murdered Ukrainian soldiers and boasting that he would have them installed underneath a glass floor in the local so -called SVO museum, which I'm sure everyone by this stage knows is a euphemism for the war.He said that allowing visitors to sort of trample over these belongings on this floor would be symbolic of, quote, the Russian people's spirit in the struggle for independence.And in the video, as he kind of brags about these captured items, there's a kind of Well, it would be a cartoonish moment if it weren't so sort of ghoulish.But he says he's got hold of these bandera and Nazi symbols and the camera shows the items.And it's actually a tactical medical kit and a Ukrainian flag.

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So that kind of tells you all that you need to know.

19:01

We'll link to both of those pieces in the show notes.There's just one other story that was in The Times by Mark Gagliotti that's caught quite a bit of comment over the weekend.And this is essentially a piece specificallyAttacks on Russia recently might well play into Putin's hands preceding the September elections So it that the subheading for the piece is as his poll ratings fall the Russian president wants an excuse to escalate the war Now I just wonder Michael where you stand on that argument because it's a pretty controversial one And I know a lot of people have thoughts on it.

19:41

I think at this point There's so much control.I mean given that many people during the fuel shortages, we're blaming the government and not the strikes.I think at this point, it's just Putin's will of setting this pace and very little Ukrainian's restraint or otherwise would change that.

20:03

What's your take, Antonia?

20:05

Yeah, I would say I agree with that.I mean, Putin's war hawks don't need an excuse to push for Putin, you know, to escalate his attacks for one thing.I think that would happen regardless of what Ukraine is doing.But it's quite important to ask what are the options Ukraine actually has here.And I think saying that, well, implying, of course, the article didn't say that, but implying kind of that Ukraine could scale down its retaliation to Russia's attacks on its sovereign territory is potentially a sort of harmful view to hold.

20:36

And it seems to be one that is in certain countries.We hear from listeners quite commonplace particularly in Germany.It's a Line that's often been heard again and again over the years don't prod the Russian bear being one of the the common refrains But of course what as we've long argued I think on the podcast and fairly there is no red line that Putin hasn't crossed himself He's never been forced to do that and the don't provoke the Russian bear was the exactly the approach around Crimea in 2014 about before the full -scale invasion in 2022.to Starlink restrictions that prevent its use for strikes against targets inside Russia.Former Ukrainian Defense Minister Mikhail Fedorov had tried informal channels to persuade Musk without success, he said over the weekend.But in brighter news for Keefe, the U .

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S.Senate easily passed the Russia sanctions legislation on Friday.

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On this vote, the yeas are 86, the nays are 11.

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That advances a long -delayed measure backed by late Senator Lindsey Graham and sets the stage for consideration by the House of Representatives within weeks.So, of course, we will continue to monitor that and we'll talk about the full ramifications if, when that passes.But on patriots, our chief Washington correspondent, Conor Stringer, and our diplomatic editor, Joe Barnes, have published an important story into why exactly the White House changed its mind.To quote the piece, it came from aides and experts fearing important technology falling into Russian hands.specifically the small radar made by Boeing in Alabama, a part so advanced the US restricts its exports even to its closest allies.This is the PAK -3KA Band Active Radar Seeker and serves as the eyes and ears of the interceptor, locating an incoming missile in its final moments of flight and steering the Patriot into a direct collision.

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As we've discussed on the podcast previously, the Pentagon is also discovering that permission is just the first hurdle in the laborious process to give Kiev the necessary authorization for patriots.Officials would also have to identify every Ukrainian factory employee and subcontractor who has been granted access to the technology.Crucially, they'd need guarantees that those secrets could not be stolen or given to Russia.Now that is easier said than done anywhere in Europe.Just ask the British Ministry of Defence, who are in hot water, pun intended, as the Telegraph has revealed that Royal Navy spy drones used by Britain's elite special forces secretly sent data to China where they were built.We'll link to that story in the show notes for those of you interested.

24:12

But Michael, bringing you back in here, a lot of folk are asking questions about the Patriots.We continue to update you on them, but just First of all, what are the alternatives to the Patriot missiles?First of all, I know you've talked about it before, but just very briefly remind us.

24:27

So primarily, it's the SAMP -T system, the Franco -Italian using the Astra missiles.It's actually originally a naval system that is land -based.Israel also has an additional system, but really the SAMP -T is the only option.It's a little more limited in capability than Patriot.It has a very different set, but it's the closest alternative right now Key would have and what about the iris T?

24:55

That's another system that's often talked about in this context.

24:58

So the iris T is originally an air-air missile, something more like the American Sidewinder or AMRAAM.And the IRIS -T is very good at taking down cruise missiles, but it's simply not designed for the higher speed and higher altitude.necessary for ballistic missile defense.

25:16

Well, thanks, Michael.And thanks, Sonnypool1 on YouTube and Dan for those questions respectively.Now on to another question for you, Michael, this from M .A.Bed again on YouTube, who calls you the RAND missile guy.Not quite sure how you feel about that moniker.

25:31

But anyway, he says, what's the production process of the SAMP -T and the reason for the delivery delays?

25:37

I think the real reason for delivery delays is simply orders weren't placed.We know that at least from publicly, that France did not order any sort of bulk purchases, and still to this day hasn't.So, as mentioned previously, there's the radar section at the front, there's the body, and then there's the kind of booster.Those are the kind of three big rocks.But in general, those orders have to be placed years in advance.And so even if France has just placed them, they're going to be waiting several years to really see large production.

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26:11

Now, on our community page on YouTube, many of you have also been sending in your questions.Do feel free to send them in via that portal.And we'll add a link in the show notes to it.Chris Pontu asks, why is Ukraine not targeting the Russian missiles factories instead of Walbury's warehouses?Shouldn't that be their top priority since no PAK -3 systems will be delivered anytime soon?

26:34

So actually, no, they have been targeting.In particular, they've been targeting the facilities that make guidance systems and other special microelectronics for ballistic missiles, as well as ballistic missile bodies.The difference is those facilities tend to be a little harder, a little stronger physically.BRICS, industrial facilities designed this way.kind of damage from the inside.Whereas the wild berry facilities are not protected and have a lot of.

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different combat gear.So what Ukraine has been doing is rotating between industrial targets, fuel refineries, and those wild berry facilities based on where they think the strikes will be most effective.I might not agree with the prioritization at what timing, but they have been going after the industrial facilities.And remember, Russia adjusts their missile defenses where they think Ukraine will strike next.So there's both sides maneuvering and trying to get an attack through.

27:33

Now, we're often talking on the podcast about these various different defense projects in Europe and within Ukraine as well.Now, the Freya ballistic missile defense project, this is the one in -house in Ukraine, but in partnership with the Europeans, is often talked about by President Zelensky when trying to defend against the issues relating to Patriot missiles that the country's currently suffering.What's your assessment of the status of that, Michael, at the moment?

28:01

That's probably one of the best -kept secrets in Ukraine right now.So I think, frankly, when we'll know they're ready is when we see the explosion on Telegram.

28:11

Interesting.And I was crunching the numbers before we came on air.And just to remind you all that the cost of a single Patriot missile, a successful intercept, is $3 .8 million.dollars, an extraordinary amount of money and speaks, of course, to the issues at the moment, not only about the number of these missiles or similar that are available, but also the sheer cost of them and the need to try and find alternatives that are cheaper, particularly from the Ukrainian perspective.As Aeschylus says in Agamemnon, wars are banker and flesh, it's gold.But Michael, any other subjects that we haven't talked about?

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today that are on your mind?

28:52

Just one thing to add here on the interesting Patriot discussion versus not.One of the reasons why Patriot is so expensive is the Patriot launchers are designed to be carried in a C -130, to fly around and help allies and partners, and then to also be able to fit many missiles in that space, so smaller missiles that are more expensive.But some of the alternatives are bigger and cheaper, but you can only carry a few at a time.So there's some cost tradeoffs and other dynamics to think about in missile defense.

29:24

Thank you.And one last question before we then go to our final thoughts.We have winter approaching.Many in Ukraine are extremely concerned about what that may well bring.We have seen already more accurate strikes on Ukraine's energy infrastructure by Moscow.What's your assessment of the status for Ukraine at the moment when it comes to the winter months?

29:47

Russia has a couple months to choose and prioritize what they're going to target.And I'm not going to guess at this time what Russia is going to try to do.But I think that's something that should be concerned and prepared for both at the national and the individual level for Ukraine, because it could be a very cold winter for Ukraine and a very cold winter for Russia.

30:11

Well, thank you, Michael, for your insights today, as ever.And thank you all for sending in your questions.I say you can do so in many formats.You can leave us questions on Spotify, on YouTube, but also writing on that community page, as I say.But let's go to our final thoughts.Come back to you in a second, Michael.

30:25

Antonia, where would you like to leave listeners today?

30:28

I think this makes a kind of good counterpoint to my story from earlier.Ukraine over the weekend mourns the death of Alexei Yukov, who's the head of the Plattsdame Body Recovery Group, but also just a highly storied and beloved figure in Ukraine.His funeral, his familyceremony was held in Kyiv over the weekend after he was tragically killed last week by a landmine at the age of just 40.And hundreds of people came to say goodbye to him.He'd been dubbed a collector of souls and he saw his work not only as a means of paying respect to the body after death, but also of liberating the souls of the people he found.

31:06

And he liked to say, souls of the dead trust us to do that.And a really key part of his philosophy was the idea that we don't divide the dead into ours and theirs, we take everyone.So he would treat Russian bodies with equal respect and dignity.And I think for that reason, for Ukrainians, he'd become this sort of highly emotive symbol of just goodness and decency kind of in the face of evil.He also said, we don't step over a single body, not Russian and not Ukrainian, because we're returning souls, not just bodies.And I think that could not be more of a contrast from the idea of taking dead soldiers' belongings and putting them underneath a glass floor for visitors to trample over.

31:44

So I want to leave us with that thought and also pay a bit of respect to a figure who was so, so loved in Ukraine.

31:52

Well, thank you very much, Antonio, for that.Michael, where would you like to leave this today?

31:57

This is just something where, you know, we keep on talking about attacks happening throughout broader Europe that are, you know, becoming more and more obvious that there's Russian activity behind them, and Russia is doing less and less to hide them.And I'm worried that we're getting to a boiling the frog moment where Russia is getting bolder and bolder and bolder until they miscalculate.And I'm just worried over the next few months that we're getting very close to a point where that could happen.I think the airport should be a very big warning, a few others, but we seem to keep our eye on it because those sorts of drone attacks are also very hard to defend against.And so if something happens, it could radically change people's lives.perception very quickly, but it's also very hard to predict how that will happen.

32:45

I agree with you, Michael.Thank you very much for your time today.Just a very quick one from me.We'll answer more of your questions later this week in our new postbag segment.But if you're also a history obsessive like me, check out an interview I did with Mark at the History in the Making podcast, where we discuss the importance of individual leaders in this war versus the deeper forces that shape history, as well as some of the turning points and some of the interviews that stuck with me the most that we've done over the last four and a half years.I'll add a link in the show notes.

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33:15

all we've got time for today.I thank Antonia very much for her thoughts and of course, Michael and all of you around the world for listening.We'll be back same time, same place tomorrow.Until then, goodbye from us here in London.For more in -depth reporting like this, do consider subscribing to The Telegraph.You'll unlock full access to our journalism from rigorous coverage of the war in Ukraine, to free thinking opinion on today's biggest talking points.

33:41

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