Watch This After Dhurandhar 2 - Honsla Eendhan Badla Podcast 🔥 I Anirudhya Mitra | TRS

Was there a figure like Hamza?

The character of Hamza is not yet revealed. But there is an Indian spy who is rotting in Pakistan's jail. His name is...

But the scene where an Indian spy is caught, have there actually been spies who are caught on the other side?

What I heard from Pakistani officers at one point in time, it could be the same thing, how much string will be shown in it, that there will be two less or two more. I mean, it's not worth saying, the brutality with which torture is done.

There was a scene in Durandar 1 where Uzair and Hamza were playing football. But I believe the actual lore is that people were played football with their heads

Uzair Baloch, his father, was having a big fight with him And Uzair Baloch brutally killed Arshad Pappu and his friends So at that time, these people were kicking him and played football with Arshad Pappu's head.

SP Chaudhary Aslam

People used to say that he is Taliban hunter. His one name was Baba Kaut. Because he was a big fan of Sanjay Dutt after watching Khalnaik. It is an irony.

Peak detailing by Aditya Dhal.

Bade sahab Dawood Ibrahim hi hai. Wo jo ghatna gati thi jahaan pe Dawood ke bhai Noora ko Rahman Dakaid te maar diya. Clifton mein uske nazi ki kahin ek dustbin ke baas wo body dump karke chale gaye. Kya kar paaye Dawood?

Kuch nahi. It's crazy to me that there has been a chapter like this. Rehman Dakaith vs. Dawood Ibrahim. This is a Dhurandar podcast special. All the characters we have seen in Dhurandar, their crunched down, condensed story has been shown in the film. All those characters have their own history, psychology and anecdotes. All that will be presented in today's Skillhouse brings you the Ranveer show episode. Mr. Mitra is a very senior journalist.

He has covered the ISI and Pakistan subjects for decades. He has done a lot of research on this topic. Karachi underworld, Lyari etc. I hope all of you understand geopolitics and understand psychology better because of this episode. Whenever I watch an impactful film, I love to research on that film. So all the cinephiles like me will love this podcast.

If you like history, if you like the subject of geopolit History, you will learn a lot. Lots that I learned today. I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did while recording. Jai Hind! Enjoy this Dhurandar let's start. If you have just watched Dhurandar 1 or Dhurandar 2, then this podcast is for you. You will know the history that has not been shown in Dhurandar. You will know the in-between the lines details of Dhurandar.

And the characters that were shown in Dhurandar. You will understand their psychology. I believe that you will know a lot about India today.

That's why at the start of this episode, Jai Hind! I believe that you will know a lot about India today. That's why at the start of this episode, Jai Hind.

Thank you, Mr. Mitra.

You are one of the most senior journalists in the country.

I think, maybe 20-30 years ago,

you did a lot of research on espionage and ISI.

How would you rate Dhurandhar 1 as of now? Because as we are recording this, Dhurandhar 2 has not released yet. Of course. So, Dhurandhar 1, did it have an impact on our national story?

Very true.

Dhurandhar opened a new universe, there is no doubt. For so many years, I have studied geopolitics and national security, especially in Pakistan. I have studied and examined it. And study means it's not just what is available in the public domain, reading that. There is not much in that. You have to talk to your contacts. And how many contacts trust you? It takes years and decades to build them. So coming back to Dhurandhar, the characters in Dhurandhar are all drawn from real life characters.

It was like that. Of course, to show the stories of a film, you have to compress the timeline. Many characters become composite characters. For example, you are looking at a particular character, but it is possible that in that character,

more than 2 or 3 or at least more than 1 character's essence is added.

Even for example, Ranveer Singh.

Absolutely.

Must be a story of many spies that have worked together.

Absolutely. You are absolutely right. Because, especially Ranveer Singh, Major Iqbal, such characters are composite characters. Many people have made those the story of the incidents. But in a film, you have to tell a story through a protagonist or a hero... ...with whom the audience can relate from the first scene.

So, obviously, it has to be compressed and made larger than life. These characters are not so larger than life in real life. Their first task is not to be larger than life. So that we don't get the attention of people. If you work in a secret way, you can't walk with a 56 inch chest.

You will be lost with people. But I understand. Cinema has its own glamour and compulsions. So, the biggest thing for me for Dhurandhar is... The universe we saw in Lehari... The internal gang war there...

And how it is mixed with politics and intelligence... We didn't just see gangsters. We saw an ecosystem in Pakistan where crime, politics, intelligence, how all these things work together, how they feed each other. I thought that was shown brilliantly in Dhurandar.

Okay. You are saying that these larger than life characters are actually in stealth.

Not all of them. What I meant to say is that the hero that we consider as a spy, he definitely can't be larger than life. He can't afford to be that. He comes in noticed quickly. But if you talk about a gangster,

sometimes police officers,

then it is beneficial for them. They start taking them more seriously. But a person who does a secret job,

the better it is for him.

There was a scene in Durandar 1 where Uzair and Hamza were playing football. But I believe the actual lore is that people were played football with their heads. Yes, it's a very brutal story. Rehman Dakaid. He was a partner of Rehman Dakaidit. With Rehman Daka'it,

there was a partner of his called Haji Lalu. He used to run drugs, extortion, gambling rackets, etc. When Rehman Daka'it started rising after 2003 or 2004,

there was a fight between him and Haji Lalu. They got separated. And at that time, Haji Lalu got separated. After that, he suffered a lot of loss. He said that Rahman Dakaid betrayed him and took him out of his team through a partnership. Haji Lalu's son was Arshad Pappu.

Oh, okay.

Rahman Dakaid's cousin Uzair Baloch had never been involved in a crime. His father, Muhammad Faizu or Mama Faizu, was having a lot of fights with Arshad Pappu was fighting with them.

Who will get the labor union of Karachi Port? On one hand, Rahman Dukkaid said that Mama Faizu was trying to interfere.

On the other hand, Arshad Pappu felt that the only way to stop or only way to gain control of the labor union of Karachi port will be to kill the one who is fighting with me to get it. So, he first kidnapped wanted, kill him. So he kidnapped him first.

And he killed him. He was Uzair Baloch's father. Harshad Pappu killed Uzair Baloch's father. In 2003. He didn't know about this crime.

He had a wound in his childhood, he never forgot it. And slowly, he joined the gang with Rehman Dakait. When Rehman Dakait died in 2009, he took charge of the gang of Larry. He took Rehman Dakait's place.

Uzair Baloch.

Uzair Baloch. And then Uzair Baloch felt that now he has to take revenge from Arshad Pappu. Who brutally killed my father. It was a business. You couldn't do business. You lost.

That's why you brutally killed my father. How did you kill him? How did I kill him? Arshad Pappu with his friends, with some of my friends and colleagues in the area of Clifton, Karachi which is a housing colony of army officials and it is quite notorious because

there are a lot of terrorists India's most wanted, Pakistan's criminals these people are given shelter there they have houses and apartments there for them.

Dawood also lives in that area.

Dawood also lives in that area. In Clifton. In Clifton, there is a defense housing board. There was a party going on at an army personnel's house. Arshad Pappu was with his friends. There is a raid at night. Who does that raid? of uniform and some 20 people raid that house and kidnap Arshad Pappu and his other friends.

What is happening?

And they are not arrested, they are not presented in the court. They are handed over to Uzair Baloch. They are handed over to Uzair Baloch. It is said that in return they were given lakhs of crores of rupees. So it was a deal. They did it for Uday Baloch. And Uday Baloch then brutally killed Arshad Pappu and his companions.

They chopped his body into pieces. The bodies were dismembered, like we call it ready, the vegetables are sent. In that, like it hangs in the meat shop, different body parts of a goat, all those body parts are hung, in the city, they are, what do you call it, like a procession, they are taken out. And basically, people have to create fear in their minds, that see, what people do to us, they don't forget what they did to them.

They wanted to make sure that they don't take revenge after 10 years. And the head of Ashrad Pappu, they cut his body using a chopper. But they couldn't do anything to his body. So they took him to play football. When they were taking the remaining body parts in a sack,

they were kicking him and playing football with him.

We are recording this before the release of Dhurandar 2. I wonder if this is shown in the film.

I don't know, but this is very... And for them, it's a common occurrence. It won't happen just by killing. We have to show everyone a piece of it. And we'll play football on their heads. So…

But this is their history.

The father of Uzair Baloch, who was killed… Any details on that murder? Was that also brutal?

That was brutal of course but only that his body parts were found. He was sent after killing him. Okay. Uzaib Alaw was very young of course and Rehman Daka'it immediately couldn't take revenge because normally what happens between these gangsters? There is enmity but only when you enter each other's territory and try to take over something.

Or if you say that I will handle the drugs and you will handle the gambling. Then the person who is handling the gambling should not get into the drugs. And the person who is handling the drugs should not get into the gambling. Enmity and fight usually starts from here. When the interests of each other clash. So, Arshad Pappu and Rehman Dakaid were not clashing. But for Ujjain Baloch, it was not easy to digest how my father was killed.

And he was killed because he was a businessman.

Sir, we will move ahead in this podcast. But we will take tangents in between. So that the audience can understand more and there is more spice in this podcast. Okay. You know, in childhood, there is a type of question

called difference table in exams. So, if I ask you, please draw a difference table between prime Mumbai underworld and prime Karachi underworld.

Prime Mumbai underworld, there bloodbath as compared to the prime underworld of Pakistan or Karachi, Lahore, whatever it is, there is a lot of difference. There is a lot more,. There is a lot of brutality here and there is a lot less here. If a character called Sapna didi whose husband was killed by Dawood Ibrahim's gang, but Sapna didi's husband worked for the same gang, and she swore that she will take training and do this and that, and one dayy and kill Dawood. And as this news reaches Dawood Ibrahim, his whole gang, with what brutality, whether it was Sapna Didi or those people who helped Sapna Didi

in going to this mission, they were all beaten very badly. This is it. These people always give a message that if you raise your voice against us or do something, then see what happens. But if you see what happens in Pakistan, then in the Lehri gang war, it is believed that more than 10,000 people were killed in 10 years.

This means that there are some court filings in Pakistan. This is the saying of the eyewitnesses that here, like, for example, the police raid at Uzair Baloch's house. From inside Uzair Baloch's house, a grenade was launched from the rocket launcher. In which 20 civilians and some 13 or 14 police officers were killed.

This is not happening in our country. Very less.

Meaning, GTA is more prevalent in Pakistan. Grand Theft Auto.

It is very much prevalent. And in our country, it is not like you can chop someone's body and hang it in 10 places. Because whatever it is, it is not like there is no corruption in the police or government. But you cannot display it publicly. Because our society is more civil.

Got it. I am trying to understand Lyari more.

Okay?

There is a subject called Anthropology. Study of Society. Okay? So if we understand the mafias of the world from an anthropological perspective, that why do mafias take birth? Usually, it's because of a power vacuum.

Meaning, in the context of Mumbai, it is said that pre-1990s, before the liberalization of the economy, there was a socialist thought overall, since independence, independence 1947 to 1990s. Because of that, revenue streams were not that healthy for businesses. Basically, it was a little difficult to start a business. Which is why we respect people like Durbai Ambani even more.

He was able to create a business in that era. But there was a power vacuum when it came to certain revenue streams. That's why smuggling even became a thing in Mumbai. I would like for you to first explain, why was Mumbai underworld born?

Overall, is it what I am saying? Are there more details? It is an addition to that.

Okay.

Then compare it to the origins of Karachi underworld. Why was it born?

Because both the countries were independent at the same time. Absolutely. See, wherever the underworld is born, they become the mafia. Not just because they want money or power. They want both.

They both work together. They go hand in hand. It starts with deprivation. That you were born in a poor family. You don't get everything you want and dream of. You don't get what you deserve. And you see people using their power to take away your rights. Usually, the social class divide

or the findings of anthropological studies show that the birth starts from there. If you take away from me, I will take away from you.

Okay.

Now, to reach that level, I need some power in my hands. That power can be with a single person if he has a weapon in his hand, a knife. I have seen a knife, can have it too, if he has a weapon in his hand, a knife. I have shown a knife and I can snatch a long sword from a powerful man. So, gradually, people start recognizing you. Whether we saw it in the Godfather of Coppola,

or in the Diabana of Maniratnam, or in the wall, it happens in all places. That they buy the same house and give it to their mother, where the mother had picked up the brick from her shoulder. It's a standard story everywhere. Including Leary.

Basis of crime is emotional breakdowns in childhood.

Absolutely. Right? Absolutely right. If childhood has been very difficult, you are more likely to be a criminal. More likely to be a criminal and if your environment is helping you,

which is conducive for you to become a criminal. In Leary, the bloodbath is more because gang wars keep going on there non-stop. Not just because there is no economic reform there. The reason is that the law enforcement, whose job is to maintain law and order, or to stop them from committing crimes, those people are completely involved with them. Politicians, administrators of our society, our guardians of law, police, intelligence, government,

if all of them are involved, taking advantage of each other, making money, enjoying power, then how will crime reduce there? Which is not the case in our country. It is not that there is no crime in our country. But there is crime in our country, but the way the mafia is killed forever.

You know, the way people have a lot of opportunities. Those opportunities are not there in Lehri. There you feel that this is the growth by using crime. Karachi port is very important. It is also the commercial capital of the country. Now, one politician there whom we saw in Dhurandar Wang, Jamal Jamali Jamali, who is a character called Nabil Gamal, who was a politician in Delhi. It is said that he is based on this character. He was the shipping minister of that country.

So, the country's minister, where there is the most crime in the port, smuggling, so you see how everyone is united. That is not the scenario of Bombay's underworld. And where is the underworld in Bombay today?

I think we should actually pull up some things. Because that politician, what is his real name?

Nabil Gabol.

Nabil Gabol.

Accurately portrayed by Rakesh Bedi

Obviously, it's a comic relief angle

But brilliant

Yeah, great. I think this is Rakesh Bedi's career defining role in so many ways

Yeah, but with that, my personal comment I would like to give a lot of credit to the director Who thought of Rakesh Bedi for that role

Peak detailing by Aditya Dhar Brilliant

Because I have been in Delhi for a long time. I have a lot of interaction with Punjabis. My friends are Punjabis. My daughter-in-laws are Sikh. So, the way he talks, his body language, everything was super. The concept of casting Rakesh Bedi was a great idea.

That's all. Sir, this real life version of Rakesh Bedi, Nabeel Gabol.

Nabeel Gabol. How do you say it? Nabeel Gabol.

Gabol.

Gabol. Tell us about him. As far as the powers of my podcast are concerned, I have met politicians. A lot of politicians are playing a character. Man is clearly playing a character. Man is clearly playing a character. So, from the perspective of Lyari Underworld,

what character were they playing in real life? Because, at least in Dhurandar 1, Rakesh Bedi was shown to be very insecure, kind of power hungry, kind of playing both sides of the game, you know, double agent vibe me dikhaya gaya. Toh real life Nabeel Kapoor ke baar me batayiye, yeh bhi batayiye ki agar unki ek sundar beti thi ya nahi.

Jaha tak Nabeel Kapoor ki baat hai, jo real life me LIAD se politician, go to the National Assembly, become a minister, whatever it is, he did it. He used the Lehari gangs very well, basically to get votes. The politics and criminals' nexus, they help each other. You help us to get votes. You scare the public, threaten them. If you have to do rigging, do that too. In return, we will give you protection.

There will be cases against you. But there will be no progress. We will not take it forward. So this was the basic relationship between him and the gangs of Lehri. He was playing with both. He used Ashutosh Pappu, he used Rahmat Dakaid.

Rahmat Dakaid was afraid that he was becoming too popular. So he thought that he will win the seat of the government. After that, when Uzair Bal aaya, he was very confident, wo bhi chunao ladna chahata tha. Ek min sir, jo film mein dikhaya gaya hai ki Nabeel Kabul was also responsible for Rehman Taqaid's death. In fact, Hamza ke saath wo ek plotting karte hai Durandar 1 mein. Agar history mein dekha jaye, jo research The information that we get from research, there is no confirmation of this.

But the information that we get about him is that he was controversial for a lot of his statements, for some of his comic acts also, for his losing temper every year. For example, he once said publicly about a rape case, that I can only say that if you are not able to stop it, enjoy it. He said this about girls. If you can't handle it, then start enjoying the rape.

So, I was wondering who is the person who has such a perversion in his mind, who can say such things. He had a fight with a passenger. He went and beat him up. And he was also alleged in a particular case where he was with a particular fisherman group. He was the leader of the union. They were having an affair. It was not working out.

So he himself went to a mob and shot them. So that case went on for a long time. There were many corruption charges against him which were never proved. So he was always in the middle of controversy because of his non-stop link with some criminal of the gang leader of Lehari and the other. He handled everyone with love.

You have been following Indian politics for so many years. I would like to ask you that what is the difference between the top Pakistani politicians and the top Indian politicians?

I think restraint. There is a difference between restraint and restraint. In our country, we cannot do anything even if we want to. Because in our country, from social engineering to policing power, all these things are very powerful. Whereas in Pakistan, it's a lot more porous.

In Pakistan, the nakedness that leads to corruption and police brutality in Pakistan, we have all that behind the scenes. So a lot of things are on public display in Pakistan. There is more brutality, people become more shameless. We don't have that. Plus, the checks and balances in our country are very strong.

The media in our country is very strong. In today's date, and for a long time, it is not easy to say something or do something for you. Because all the people around you have a phone in their hand and a camera in it. You don't know anything. You said something and it went viral. So, the checks and balances, the compulsions are very different in India as compared to Pakistan.

Hmm. Okay. Can you open one YouTube video? I actually saw a reaction of Nabeel Kapoor on Dhurandar. I want to play that reaction. Then we'll get into each character. Sure. Can you just open YouTube? Top search term is Nabeel Kapoor's daughter. Do you have a daughter of Nabeel Kapoor?

No, I didn't get anything. Okay, so that was just fictionalized.

Sir, a new Indian film is coming. And since you are from Lyari and you were told in your podcast that the people of Lyari don't know as much about Lyari as you do. So why is this negative projection being made by India in the Dhurinder film? Because we have seen that Lyari has given us international players, whether it is football or boxing. There is a very good image of Lyari. Yes, it is true that there was a gang war. But how do you see India presenting this at this time?

India has actually tried to make a movie against Pakistan. It was a failed attempt. Then Lyari was shown that there is a terrorist hub in Lihari. Now, showing this, no doubt, 3-4 years, which affected me too, gang wars in Lihari, criminal activities in Lihari, everyone knows the situation in Lihari. But, Alhamdulillah, now that situation is totally opposite of that. In the whole of Karachi, the lowest crime rate is in four places in Lihari.

At 3 in the night, even you as a woman, you go there, you will find Lihari so safe that no one will even look at you. But its image has really been ruined. Our own people have ruined it. Our own people have ruined Lihari.

The governments there?

The situation there at that time was such that Maximum the people ruined Lyari. The governments there?

The situation there at that time was such that

maximum people's party was there.

So when you give full power and support to the gangsters for three years from the Home Minister and the Home Minister says that these are my children, the people of the peace committee, then those children will go crazy. Those children went crazy. I was the only one who stood up against them and fought with them.

Okay, Aman's party means Rehman Taqeer's party.

People's Aman Committee. When they are answering, they are also making political diss.

That Aman Committee, he is not addressing the issue.

He is not addressing the issue. He is not addressing the issue.

But he is saying that there were gang wars.

Yes, there were gang wars because he took advantage of it.

Okay.

But in that he didn't want Dakaith to become the winner or Uzair Baloch to become the winner. Then his seat would have gone. Baloch tried a lot.

There is one more video but...

You are playing a role in movies as well.

What would you say about this? You are becoming a famous person.

I would say that I am more beautiful. You can see me. People are watching me. I am more beautiful. The one who was shown Nabil Gabul is not that beautiful. And in India, Nabil Gabul is not there. That's why they made another comedian

Nabil Gabul. Anyway, this Durandar movie to We have also put an application in Sindh High Court that he should be banned in India as well. And he should be a failure to defame Pakistan.

India will be silent.

Okay, these are typical political defenses. Deflecting. But basically...

His comment was interesting. His comment was that, first of all, the character you are showing, if he was really in the Liary not have been able to go back. Right? He could not have lived. The second thing he said was,

that, will you file a case? He said, I don't have so much money, that I can go to the International Court of Justice and file a case against an Indian film.

These are the things he had said. You know, he is saying that people in Pakistan are not watching Dhurandar. But I have seen such videos where in very fancy weddings, Dhurandar is dancing to music. So he is not saying the truth.

And people in Pakistan have seen the film. Of course he is not saying the truth. Not able to say the truth.

Means there is a lot of craze of Indian cricket. They love Indian cricketers. Yeah, that's true. Basically, I think he has been defamed on an international level. Navigil Kabol. Did he deserve the defamation?

Yes.

Yes.

Why?

Because, the thing that was happening so constructively in Lehari, the nexus between crime and politics and intelligence and Pakistan army were taking advantage of each other, it should be seen. Because the ecosystem in Pakistan, because of which all this happens. For example, our concern with Pakistan? Pakistan's continuous terror attacks on us. This is a massive issue for all of us.

No matter how much action we take on them, we don't think they will sit quietly. Because that country has turned into a disease nation. They will keep doing this. I feel that in Durandhar, the scenario of Pakistan where the people of politics, crime intelligence, that is ISI, they work together and particularly against India.

If it is being exposed, it is being done very well. The world must know because it will be Dhurandar's contribution that the film became an international film.

Two questions are related to ISI and Pakistani politics. First, how does ISI view Pakistani politics? Because ISI runs the country. So what's the point of the political parties anyway? I guess it's like micro power and making that little extra bit of money. And second question is, ISI, yeh Pakistani underworld ko kis nazariye se dekhta tha? Other than what we're shown in the film.

Dekh yeh Pakistani underworld ko ISI ne hamesha control kiya hai. Aaj ke baat nahi hai. Even 1980s mein, jab Afghanistan mein Soviets ne jaake invade kiya tha aur war shuru atha, Soviets had invaded and war had started. Even then, to fight the Afghan Mujahideen, the arms and cash that had to be given, that is a different story, we can discuss this some other time, but they used to help. So, working with the ISI, smugglers, illegal arms supply, giving to the rebels, this has been going on in their history from the beginning. As far as democratically elected government

is concerned in Pakistan, it's more like a mask. They want that. Pakistan army, ISI, because they run the show. They want a front. You can't always run a country as a junta government, as a military government. Because you will be under international pressure. You will be under the pressure of America, which was your big ally until a while ago. When India was tilted more towards the Soviet bloc, you know, towards the socialist blocs. So, they need a democratic so-called, you know, quote-unquote democratic government. It is said that Imran Khan had a big hack of the Pakistan army in his prime ministerial term. democratic Pakistanis are scared that India can attack them anytime.

So therefore we need all these weapons and support. So the country's budget will have to go in it. And from all those deals, billions of dollars are made for them, which is then laundered in Dubai or other countries. So Pakistan, even if it runs the kare but they always need a legitimate government in front of the people. Jisko aap overtly army control nahi kehenge.

Ek front hai.

It's a front. Actually, puppet master ISI hi hai. ISI hai.

But yeh chote mote Nabeel Kapoor jaise puppets ho rahe hai.

Lekin kya hota hai, any politician jab ek ba the Prime Minister's seat and starts enjoying power, then he wants the army to listen to him. What happened with Imran Khan, what happened with Benazir Bhutto, what happened with Nawaz Sharif. And in every case, you see how a military government was formed after him. Either he was killed or tried to kill or Imran Khan was put in jail. Everyone knows his condition.

Plus, he is also getting defamation. Absolutely. Like things are being leaked without any proof. It is being said that Imran Khan got sodomized in a Pakistani jail.

This was the headline.

We don't know if it's true or not. We don't know if it's true or not but the photograph we saw of him, where he couldn't open his eyes, he was swollen, the swelling on both his eyes, it looked horrible. When some 16 world cricket captains had to write a joint letter, you know, seeking his rehabilitation or good health, whatever.

So whenever there was an effort, it started to, well, the clash started a few days later, because the Pakistani army always wants total control in our hands. Even if there is another party in power, they should listen to us. This is the difference between them and us.

Yes, I am thinking that you are treating your former PM like this. What has the former PM done to piss you off that much? What has he done that he has been attacked? As in, he was attempted assassination.

When Imran Khan became the Prime Minister, the experts there or the experts of geopolitics, mostly said that Imran Khan was elected with a lot of help from the army. They wanted Imran Khan to be in the position of power. And they will maintain a camera duty, Bonhomie, whatever. Dono saath saath chalenge. But somehow Imran Khan started peddling this line ki Pakistan mein army ka raj nahi chal sakta hai. Pakistan

ka jo army hai, wo zarurat se zyada power enjoy kar rahi hai. They should be curtailed. And this went to that peak when the ISI chief, I don't remember his name, he went to Afghanistan to talk to the Taliban. And Imran Khan said, no, this is not possible. And the Pakistan army selected him to be the ISI chief, although Imran Khan wanted someone else.

That was the first difference between the two. ISI chief banne mein, halaki Imran Khan kisi aur kuch aate the. Wo leke dono mein pehla difference se shuru hua tha. Imran Khan ke sohra tha ki if I am the prime minister of the country, I will decide who should be heading the ISI. Jabki Pakistan army kahna tha ye hohi nahi sakta. What decision will you take?

The character of Arjun Rampal, he is effectively personifying ISI. Right? Face of ISI. But you are saying that Arjun Rampal is a mixture of two real life characters. So, I would like to ask you, based on everything you have said right now, that scene where Rehman Dakeit, Arjun Rampal's character, Ilyas Kashmiri, all these people in one room, Khanani brothers, all of them are celebrating the 26-11 attack.

Whether or not that celebration happened, that room is showing how Pakistan's crime system works and how it's fueled by ISI. How they are both kind of on the same team.

Absolutely right.

So, first I would like to ask about that character. Second question is, if ISI is so powerful, why have they kept the underworld alive which is creating so much chaos in their own country? Is it just for the sake of that extra help through weapons, money etc?

Actually, if you look at the whole world, whether it is the western powers, whether you talk about South Asia, or you talk about South Asia or West Asia, wherever, anywhere in the world. Intelligence organizations along with smugglers, arms dealers, terrorist organizations to some extent, because they infiltrate, they have their own men to inside them to inform them. Defectors. They work together for a long time. I can work with a smuggler if he helps me in a particular operation or exercise against Pakistan. And vice versa, Pakistan can do the same.

But the question is where do you draw the line? The scene we saw in Durandar, we cannot say exactly how it happened. But the information we get through research, there are two characters. One was Major Iqbal, who was from ISI, who was known to be a very violent officer. He had a passion to see how much damage he can do to India. And 2611 was his brainchild. He had hired this Pakistani American Al-Qaeda operative David Coleman Headley. He had given some $25,000 to David Coleman Headley and hired him. He had asked him to

go to Bombay and make his own office. And all the recce, scouting, locations, be it the Oberoi Trident Hall, Taj, the Israeli Nabat House, all of them went there. So he was asked why Nabat. He said that it was actually an office of Mossad.

He said that he wanted to attack all of Mossad. I have to attack all these places. You bring the details of all of them. And during the real operation, the 10 terrorists who came here from Pakistan, you know, they came here through water and landed in Mumbai. Talking to them continuously,

guiding them, giving instructions, Major Iqbal was doing all this.

Ok.

So, Major Iqbal and after that David Coleman Headley, as soon as the operation was over, I mean the 26-11 attack was over, he told David Coleman Headley not to contact him again, you leave from here. Now it is also being said that, as far as what is his name, Ilyas Kashmiri, earlier, SSG was

a division of Pakistan army, but later he left and he joined the Jihadist movement.

SSG is like special forces?

It is like special forces. Ok. Maybe paramilitary they are. So, he paramilitary they are. Toh waha se wo nikal gaya officially aur he joined some jihadist groups. So Ilyas Kashmiri woh se nikal gaye the and he joined the jihadist movement aur jaha tak ISI ki baat hai wo unko India ke khilaf action mein istawal karna chahate the. He was involved in of course guerrilla warfare and you know certain cases of bombings in

India but he died in a drone strike sometime in 2011. internal matter, there has not been any confirmation of that. Drone strike? Drone strike, yes. Basically, there had been cases, I mean, we talk about surgical strike, Balakot air strike, but it does not mean that before that, the terrorist camps in Pakistan, especially near the border, there has never been any attack. There may have been attacks at a small level, but there had been attacks. It is possible, I cannot confirm this but the information that we get after

doing research says that in a drone attack, Ilyash Kashmiri was killed. Now, it can be an internal matter. ISI gave shelter to many people, grew them, used them and later killed them. This is very common with almost all intelligence agencies. And as far as Major Iqbal is concerned, he is very much alive.

Okay. Just like the Pakistani underworld was shown in Dhurandar, if a movie is made where ISI is shown, Aditya Dhar,

then draw out the environment of that movie. I mean, if you talk about ISI, and a film is made on it, then I feel that movie Whether it is CIO, Mossad, RNAW, China's MSS, Russia's KGB, now it is called FSB. But they don't run the country, the country runs them. Yes. Which should be.

But in Pakistan everything is run by ISI. One of the important reasons for that is that all the arms deals of the Pakistan army are more than necessary. And a lot of money is made from it. They are the richest community of Pakistan. Not Pakistani industrialists, not Pakistani politicians who are corrupt. They have made a lot of money but not like ISI bosses, ISI seniors or Pakistan army. ISI and Pakistan army will be one.

If it is seen. So I think that whole the game of power and money, that is what runs everything in Pakistan. That is precisely why they keep on nursing terror groups with whom they fought 365 days in a year proxy war with India. You are saying that this Ilyas Kashmiri, it is partially based on Major Iqbal.

Major Iqbal was an SF officer who was 26. ISI officer Major Iqbal was. ISI who was the brainchild of 2611. But formally Pakistani SF. Absolutely. He was a Pakistani ISI officer. He was a senior field officer of ISI. He had a brainchild. He did all the handling. He was a handler for all the 10 terrorists who had landed here.

He had hired David Coleman Headley. I think the character of Arjun Ramphal, the character he plays in Durandhar 1 It is a composite character of Ilyash Kasmiri and Major Iqbal. Okay. After a little study, it seems that both of them were taken. Even including their physical features and their involvement. But Major Iqbal was probably more feared between the two characters.

He was the one who gave the entire outcome of 2611.

Okay, so basically online there are images of Ilyas Kashmiri. And the drone strike that he was killed by, apparently US had taken responsibility. But this Major Iqbal, which is the other character, no one knows his face. So Arjun Rampal is a fusion of Ilyas Kashmiri and Major Iqbal.

Because Ilyas Kashmiri was a top leader of Al-Qaeda and the beheading of Indian soldiers was named after him. He was the person responsible for this. In fact, he was the one who was killed by a drone attack. Ilyas Kashmiri. So it looks like, you are right, that it is a fusion of Major Iqbal and Ilyas Kashmiri.

Okay, so tell me one thing sir, we are trying to present the truth about Ilyas Kashmiri. What will the Pakistani media say about Ilyas Kashmiri or Major Iqbal? Because I have realized over the course of seeing everything that happened on Operation Zindoor, their entire population is fed a narrative. So I'm sure even with these villainous people there's a different narrative being fed to the population.

When I went to research on Ilyas Kashmiri, I wanted to study how he is portrayed in the Pakistani media. research Pakistan Army elite force. After leaving that he joined Al-Qaeda. He became a top leader. After that, the newspaper there did not report much. Definitely. They confirmed that he joined Al-Qaeda. But how much he behaved with Indian soldiers and what actions he took against India, that is something I could not find in the Pakistani media. But there it was admitted that he became a top leader of Al-Qaeda and he was involved in quite a few acts of terrorism.

Is there any brutal story that was not shown in Dhurandar?

In Dhurandar, the accusation against Ilyas Kashmiri that he was responsible for beheading Indian soldiers when he was in Al-Qaeda, that has not been shown in Dhurandhar. In Dhurandhar, we saw that he is like an ISI officer more. You know, at what level he can torture someone with such brutality. I think that was a message or a signal given in Durandar Vaughan... ...that what is going to happen next. Because such incidents are very low.

Whether it is from Major Iqbal or someone else. Again, when you make a film, you take inspiration from many similar characters.

I feel uncomfortable bringing this up. So you get inspiration from many similar characters.

But the one scene where an Indian spy is caught in Dhurandar 1.

And then he is being tortured.

I know that your contacts are in the Indian Defence Ministry and RNAW.

Have there actually been spies who are caught on the other side? Many. Many of them. And are they all treated like this? Yes. The spies who cross the border and go to work, they are never killed immediately. Because their procedure is that they are presented in the military court

and there is only one punishment, that is capital punishment, death sentence.

Even today, Gulbhusan Jadhav is in Pakistan prison. We have stopped the death sentence from the International Court of Justice. There is only one punishment, which is death. But death is not given immediately. They are hanged. They are tortured in prison for years. They are told that they should regret for what they have done.

They should be told that they should not have done this. So they are tortured every day. They are killed physically, mentally, temperamentally. They turn them into a dead body, a vegetable. And they kill themselves for a long time. They kill them for a long time.

We keep telling you. There are some cases where it is shown that on humanitarian ground, when there is an exchange of spies, prisoners, we sent India back to that exchange program. Like there was someone named Kashmir Singh, there was someone named Ramraj,

they went from Punjab, the spy was caught there. They killed Saroj Beet in jail. But basically, no one knows about the spy. Because after all, this is called secret service. But if anyone is caught spying in Pakistan,

especially if he is from India, then their priority is to know how long they can torture him physically. That is a must for them. And that physical torture can be anything we see in films. Whether you pull out the nail, or pull out the teeth, or you cut the body, and sprinkle salt in it.

What we saw in Dhurandhar, I didn't feel at all. The information I have, which I heard from Pakistani officers at one time, it's very common there, this kind of physical torture. Often, it can be that how much string will be shown in it, which is being pulled from the body, there will be two less or two more,

or here two less and there two more. It's not like saying that it's just a brutality torture.

Any idea on how a spy is selected in India? Usually I assume that these will be special forces officers or military officers.

Not necessary. Earlier it used to happen that many units for operations, many people would quit the army or IB or special groups, paramilitary forces, they used to offer their services to RNAW. They used to take them. But in many years, there was a stage when RNAW or the Government of India felt that the officers of RNAW will grow from within.

They will rise the ranks. So, like there is IAS and IPS, a cadre service was started which is called RAS, RAW Administrative Service. So, the person who qualifies for that, joins RAW and does not go anywhere else. Earlier, officials used to go for deputation, like in Central Police Organization, officers go, some join CBI, some BASF, some CISF, some CRPF, then after a while they come back in fear of their state. After a few years, they cannot work for more than 8 years. So, they used to go inside RAW and come back.

But please take note that when they used to come out of RAW, we are not doubting their integrity. But they come out with a lot of country secrets about future planning. So, after the Rockwell Exchange, the government felt that no, whatever is inside the ROC will be only of ROC. They will not come from outside and they will not go outside either. You know, so, this practice continued gradually. And in today's date, whatever is inside the ROC,

there was a special security bureau, which has a lot of places, I think, should not be named publicly for security reasons. Where SSB's regular training was done, it is still done somewhere. So, a lot of commandos are taken from there to RAW for a certain kind of mission or work. Of course, they are still recruited, but no longer from any other services.

They are all insiders of RAW. And people are brought in from different ranks and different levels. You have to appear in a... I mean to qualify. You have to appear in exams to qualify. After that, they go through a series of training, you know, just to understand their mind.

I know of certain cases where you told someone that we're going on a mission today. You have to go to a particular place and do a survey. Study the topography and demographics of that area. And you left him there. And after a while, when he was working there, he came to know that he's actually in Pakistan. That is not India. Now how does he come back? So this is a test of that person. After finishing his work, there are so many vigils at the border, and still he has to cross. And BSF will not be informed that a person will cross the border.

Army will not be called because this information will cross the border. Army will not be informed. Because this information is never given to anyone. The first criterion of a spy is that he will never tell anyone that he is a spy. If he tells, everything is over. He is not a spy. So, you are left in such a situation.

Now you have to come back to your strength. It is a huge test of that person's nerve, his mental strength. There are many ways of recruitment. There are many physical trainings. But the mental game, the undercover life, when every single day you have to learn to unlearn yourself.

You have to live with a betrayal. Look at Hamza's character in Dhurandar.

It's by far Ranveer Singh's best performance in my eyes. And it hasn't been talked about that much. In Dhurandar 1 at least. I hope after Dhurandar 2's release, it will be talked about. But the way he's played, such a layered character.

So layered. Because emotional licks are very dangerous. Because even after Durandar, there were a lot of reels made like memes. That a man is saying something and says, Sachin Tendulkar doesn't know how to do wetting. So he gave an answer in Marathi and got caught.

This may be a joke, but this is also a reality. Because you are living a different life, it can be uncovered suddenly. Was there a figure like Hamza in the real life rise of Uzair Baloch? Around Uzair Baloch. It's another way of asking that is the Durandar story based on any shade of truth?

Did any RNAW operative infiltrate the Pakistan

Mafia? I'll come to that but I think in my understanding Hamza's character is a composite of many characters who have worked in different places in Pakistan, did a lot of work, did a lot of operations, he did a lot of work, a lot of operations. He infiltrated a lot of gangs, he infiltrated the army. As far as Uzair Baloch is concerned, Uzair Baloch's rise was... He was Rahman Daka'it's cousin.

They are fathers who are brothers. They were cousins. So he had joined Rahman Taqqaid's gang. In 2009 when Rahman Taqqaid died, then Uzair Baloch took charge. He sat at the throne and he wanted to control everything through legitimate power. His first aim was that he had a gang, money, and many law enforcement agencies in his pocket.

Now he wanted to become a politician. He wanted to use his political power to legitimize everything. He tried a lot. He appeared in front of the media again and again. He gave press conferences. He had many fights with Kabul. media I will get a ticket from there. But he had so many cases against him. He had some 63

arrest warrants. But he was looking at it. He thought that the power is already in my hands. I just have to win the elections. He always said to himself that I am the Robin Hood of this area. He told the journalist in his interviews that those who do not have money to enroll in the state, I buy their medicines. My son doesn't have money to go to school. I pay for his school fees. How is it possible that people won't vote for me? But he couldn't win the election.

But there is one Indian spy who is rotting in Pakistan's jail. This story hasn't come out much.

I would like to know about Uzair's inner intentions. Because I remember there is a scene in Dhurandar 1 where there is a deal between Rehman Daket and Ilyas Kashmiri for transfer of weapons from Balochistan. And then there is a moral dilemma of Rehman Daket that should I work against Balochistan or for Pakistan.

But then he chooses to work for Pakistan for his own interest. Must have...

Yes, because ultimately he needs protection or blessings from the Pakistan government. But on some level, all the ethnically Baloch people, I am sure on some level they are thinking about Balochistan as a state as well. Pakistan It had a big raid where they were caught and their coup had failed. Even at that time, there was a Balochistan leader who had leaked Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto from inside that we are going to have a big coup in Islamabad. So, you will get arms from inside the Iraq embassy which was actually to be handed over to the Balochistan army. There were many such cases where it was repeatedly seen that seen that Baloch is the only person who leaks information.

And then Pakistan has been accused for years that RNAW has a big help, Balochistan rebels are behind them. So, but what would be the reason that if so are so many people's help behind Balochistan, but they have not been able to achieve anything yet. So, I think it's a very complex situation, you know, sometime because in many rebel organizations, historically it has been seen that after a while, Jihad or independence is behind, takes a back seat and people start enjoying power.

So, sometimes there is an understanding, agree to disagree, that you live, I live, my Jihad will continue, you will also kill some of our people. But you know, let's agree to disagree. This can happen, I am saying it hypothetically, but this is what happens most of the time. I myself was very curious to know that why did Balochistan's Jihad or the war of liberation dragged on for so long? Is there something internal or?

Generally sir, I am 100% sure that Ajit Doval sir's blessings were there in the movie. How do you think he is perceiving, how the youth is

perceiving Dhurandar? Okay, going by my knowledge and understanding of the National Security Advisor of India at any point of time, now of course since 2014 this is Ajit Doval sir. Dhurand NSA is much bigger than what we have seen in Durandhar. But there is a specific story in Durandhar. That someone has been sent to Pakistan from India. He has been given an assignment and he is completing it.

And he is monitoring the whole thing from Delhi, a character who has been inspired by Ajit Doval. To a large extent, it is absolutely correct because my latest book has the same thing where the role of a national security advisor has been defined very clearly. Role in the sense, exactly the extrajudicial killings, whether they have a role in it or not, whether they have any blessings or not, all of that is there. So, if we see from that perspective, definitely, the portrayal of Dhurandhar,

that is a little dramatic, because it is a film after all. But, on a personal level, the after all. But I have seen Mr. Duval on a personal level. He is a very humorous person actually. Really? He can be very jovial. And whenever you ask him about his service or experience,

his staple answer is if all the secrets are out, why call the secret service? So he is very good in that. But he is a very hands-on person. He leads by example. He leads from the front. Technically, Hamza's character is also based on him. That he also told the time there. We got to see him in Durandar 2. But it could be like this. I am speculating.

Because there was a time when Mr. Duwal, who was an undercover in Pakistan, spent some time between 5 and 7 years.

Yes.

When he became a beggar. There is a place called Kahutao, Pakistan illegally smuggled uranium from Central Asian countries. Pakistan had called OIC countries, Organizations of Islamic Countries, with confidence that we will make an Islamic bomb. And they had the support of Gaddafi, the head of Libya, and some other countries. So, it was at that time, you may have heard this story in social media, a film was also made where outside a salon, outside a hair cutting salon in Kauta, where people used

to come from plants, technicians, scientists, their hair samples were collected and sent to India. After studying it, it was found that traces of radiation. After that, more work was done. It is also said that at that time, another one of the greatest Indian spies, Ravinder Kaushik was present there. Apparently, he too was working on Kautha also. It is possible that he helped this quote-unquote beggar, Ajit Doval. But it is a fact that

during that phase, it is believed that Mr. Doval was the one who had planned to make this nuclear bomb. He had planned it. And then when India got to know United Nations, he took it up with United Nations Security Council. Rest, where he talked about how Pakistan can do this, the whole thing was exposed during his tenure as an undercover in Pakistan. There were other cases where he played this kind of role, which are not easily heard about other officials of his level.

Hmm. Hmm.

When you first saw Durandar 1, did you think that Hamza has shades of Ajit Doval? No. I didn't think so. I thought that Hamza is like many other kids in our country who are doing this work. We don't know. We will never know. All their sacrifices, their victories are left in silence.

That is Hamza to me.

Just based on Dhurandar 1, it seems that in Dhurandar 2, it will be shown that Hamza was a part of some crime related to his family.

Correct.

And lost his whole family.

And then he was

transitioned into being a trained spy. There is another character, I don't remember his name, but in the trailer of Dhurandar 2, it is also shown that he is also an Indian operative, who is actually working in the Pakistani underworld. And in Dhurandar 1, he is not introduced as an operator, he is introduced as a Pakistani criminal. So, does this really happen?

Absolutely. But when we were talking about the many characters, we take the work of some of them and make a composite character in a film script. So, it happens that many people work for us who are actually Pakistanis. We have hired them either for money.

What do you mean?

One is that we have an Indian who infiltrated in Pakistan and is working for India. He is called a spy. An Indian spy. But it also happens India who is spying against India in favor of We have seen in movies like Khoofiyan, he was working for America Some people work for Pakistan

So what I wanted to say was that, like many of our children crossed the border and went to that side You know, their life is at stake They are risking their lives and working There are people from that country also who are working for us Sometimes they work for money Sometimes there is some other reason There are some other that country also who are working for us. Sometimes they work for money, sometimes for other reasons.

They have some other compulsions. They can't go out of that. So it's a combination of both. It's a combination of somebody who is a criminal there. For example, there was a discussion at one time that to what extent Dawood works for us.

Dawood is also working for India sometimes because there has to be some deal, sometime. I mean, some people say that Daud is on the hit list. Then why would he work for India? So that Daud stays on that hit list for a longer period of time. So that no one neutralizes Daud.

He must have tried, but it didn't work. The fortress he lives in, the protection he has, it's not easy to get into. na kaam raha. Wo jis fortress ke andar rahta hai, jis protection ke andar ghusna ustak aasan nahi hai. To yes, jo aap keh rahe hai bilkul ho sakta hai do, chaar, paanch character ho. But it's very much a possibility. That is the strength of Durandar. Sabse cliched sawal poochunga abhi. Bade sahab Dawood Ibrahim or not.

It is possible. Unless Aditya Dhar has a surprise for us. One thing I would like to say is that Dawood is in Pakistan, in Pakistan's protection. He is very powerful. But he is not very powerful just as a mafia boss there. Dawood's power is that he has international contacts. Dawood is heavily into money laundering. So, the Pakistan army or many Pakistani politicians or influential Pakistanis, whose money he has invested in Dubai,

Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, he does such business. So, he is a quid pro quo of those people. As far as Lehari gang is concerned, the film we are talking about is a story of Lehari. Jaha tak Leary gang ki sawal hai, hum jis film ke reference mein baat karein, wo Leary ke kahaani hai.

Rahman Dukkaid ke saath unka koi clash tha nahi. Kis ka? Dawood ka. Kyuki unka territory wilkul alag tha. Dawood international level pe operate karta hai. Rahman Dukkaid Pakistan ke andar kaam karta hai.

Leary ke aas paas me kaam karta hai. in Pakistan, near Lihari. So, one, their business was not in a clash of interest. But the incident that happened where Rahman Dukkaid killed Dawood's brother Noora, that happened because Rahman Dukkaid hadakaid whose house was in Karachi which was taken over by Dawood. And Dawood had offered him around 12 crores of Pakistani Rupees. When he was saying that this house is worth more than 400 crores.

So he was a friend of Rahman Dakaid. He told Rahman Dakaid that this happened to us. So Rehman Dakaid talked to Dawood. He met Dawood. He met Dawood in Karachi and talked to him. He said, you leave this.

It is a small local property. You are interested in this. You are interested in this. You are the elder one. So Dawood was told that have you forgotten your status? You have come to talk to us. You are telling us that we should leave from here. So Rehman Dakaid did not like this at all. He felt very humiliated, insulted.

He didn't say anything and left. And one day, Dawood's younger brother Noora, he kidnapped Noora. And this news reached Dawood that Rahman's gang has kidnapped Noora. So Dawood called. When Dawood called, Rahman didn't take his call. So Dawood said, I will vacate the house.

It's okay, you leave my brother. So it is said, it is heard that Rahman Dukkait told his gang to tell him that it is too late. He should have thought about it earlier. Before humiliating us, he came to tell us his worth. He showed us his worth. So he killed him and in Clifton, where Dawood's palace is, near to it, near a dustbin, there were 6-7 bullets on his abdomen and chest.

He dumped the body and left. What could he do? Nothing. So, what I mean to say is that the local power, which is so much in Lehari or among the gang members, there, Dawood's, maybe, elder sir, for some reason, he has to be respected, addressed them because they are all criminals. And they are international level criminals. But maybe they don't have any business interests

in common. At least, I don't know.

It's crazy to me that there was a chapter like Rahman Dakait

versus Daoud Ibrahim. And I mean he is calling and saying that I vacate the house, leave my brother in return. He said it's too late.

But didn't Dawood Ibrahim take any revenge?

He is not getting any record.

Exactly.

He is not getting any record.

But maybe that's the...

Yes, it's possible. Absolutely.

For example, in the end of Dhurandar 1, is a spoiler alert when Rehman Dakaid is killed. I had entered a history rabbit hole after watching the first film. Basically, it is said that Rehman Dakaid is killed in an encounter.

And SP Chaudhary Aslam was involved. Yes, who was sitting in the car.

Yes, but in the climax of Durandar 1, Hamza drives him in a car and takes him into the jungle. Who even knows if some shade of that had happened or not.

Some people say, some experts are saying that it's true that he was taken to meet someone. He didn't know that SP Choudhary would be brought together with Alam. When he reached there, he saw Choudhary in the car. This much history says, recorded history.

Here, Dawood's role must have been there.

It's possible. You never know. Possible. Because Dawood's control or network is very big. If Dawood tells someone that this work should be done, this happened to me, so you do this work. After that, other networks will work, police will work. Like picking up Ashraf Pappu, that goes to show how much power Uzair Baloch had.

That on his orders, the police kidnapped him and are bringing him back. So think about it, what level of power will Dawood have? I have been to many powerful rooms where the discussion of Dhurandar 1 has been done. In the last three months, everywhere everyone boils down to the possibility that Bade Sahab is Daoud Ibrahim. At least theoretically. Yes. Right. Because no one else is discussed. He is one of the world's biggest criminal. He is a rank one terrorist.

So he is in the FBI list for the last 12-13 years. Among the top 10 most wanted. So, Bade Saab should be the one.

The only other name that's been floated is Masood Azhar.

Masood Azhar. Could Masood Azhar be Bade Saab? Look, the politics of Lehari... ...in which crime, ISI and politicians all mixed together. I don't see any connection between him and Masood Azhar. Because they were not directly involved in terrorism.

Uzair Baloch, when he became the leader there, he had a deep connection with all these things. He had become a much bigger gangster than Uzair Baloch Rehman. He was a symptom of this whole ecosystem of crime, intelligence, politics, power, all that. Wow! Mutated version of Rehman. Absolutely. He had everything.

The person you are arresting, you are saying that you gave these secrets to Iran. And Iran is saying that he is a double agent. Interpol is getting a notice against him from Dubai to arrest him.

He had reached this level. But during Rehman Dukkait's tenure, Lehri's politics did not have all this. It was very local because he was a local boy. He had seen a lot of books in his childhood.

The boy who stabbed someone at the age of 13, Rahman Dukkait, he was 15 years old after 2 years. Why did he stab him? Because he was lighting some crackers. He had forbidden him from lighting crackers. There must be some reason.

He had killed him with a knife. He stabbed him because he was lighting some crackers. He refused to do that. There must be a reason. He stabbed him. Two years later, he killed both of them. So that boy was growing up with the muscle power, with all his stories of so-called deprivation.

That now I will take my rights and do this and that. So he rose the ranks there. He did politics with everybody there. He did crime. There is no connection of Dawood there. There is no interest of those people. And as far as terrorism is concerned, Rehman Taka'ib's name has not been associated with terrorism yet. He might have known people who were involved in terrorism. You know, he might have known people who came to his town and told him to keep a safe house for a few days. People are looking for him. Someone can kill him. Give him shelter. That is a possibility. But I think by design, he was not into it as compared to his cousin Uzair Baloch.

Who was involved? Uzair Baloch was involved in so many things. He was playing with Iran, he was playing with Oman.

So, the deal that was shown in Durandar 1 with Akshay Khandan Arjun Rampal, is there

historical evidence that that has happened or it's suggestive? Not to my knowledge. It is a fictional form of something else. Because what happens, you know, that when you work on this kind of stories, your sources will always tell you that not everything can be shared with your viewers or your readers whatever. So there an understanding always is okay I know the truth now, the whole truth and what should be the fictional version of it.

Yes.

It happens with everyone. I have faced it again and again. Even in writing my book. It is possible that it happened. It is very logical, you know.

Got it. Okay. We have not talked about Rahman Ducat in this entire vodcast. Because he died in part 1. But I would like to ask you sir, did he really kill Babu Baloch like this in Sabji Mandi, by breaking his eyeball?

These are eye witness accounts. I mean, you may not have it in the newspaper or police records may share the name but Jahatak was key brutality ki baat hai ki marke body ko tukde tukde kar dena dustbin me laya ke fake dena uska koi numayish banana dead bodies ka is ki bahut sarah eye witness accounts hai ki kaise wo logon ko marta tha

it's very common. Matlab, we were talking about him earlier, the man who went to jail for 2.5 years for a case, and after getting out of jail, he goes home and kills his mother, his wife Khatija. And then he asks the police why he killed his mother. So that just goes to show that till the time...

He was so clinical about all these killings. There, emotions or relationships never mattered to him.

It was a serial killer psychology.

Absolutely. That you caused me harm. You came in my way. I will get rid of you. So all those people who came in his way, especially post 2005-2006,

he kept removing everyone. Last 4-5 years of his life, before he was killed in 2009, he had no limits.

Which is technically the timeline of Dhurandar 1. How? Last 4-5 years. I remember when the first movie was released, people used to comment that if you think what is shown in Dhurandar 1 is brutal, go read up the truth on Rehman Dakeit. What all he has done.

Nothing is shown in Dhurandar. We read and listen about the brutality in Dhurandar. Nothing is shown in Dhurandar. This is all. Body parts cutting, playing football with the head. Because they always enjoyed it. Like we have some stories of Downs, that after killing someone, you have kept a crocodile in the pond and fed it to them.

I know of a drug dealer in India, who after killing people, he used to feed his pit bulls or something like that. In Bombay? No, it was in Delhi. Delhi? It was in Delhi. So the thing is, they enjoyed this you know. It's a psychopath mentality. He killed his own mother.

He killed his own mother. But because... And he justified it. That Babu Baloch's biological... No, he killed his mother because my mother was in love with someone who is my enemy, my rival gang. And Khalid was not just a member of the rival gang he was a police informer.

And I had already convinced my mother but she didn't listen. And when he was in jail, I had reached her with the news. She had asked me, See, you stay in jail, you run your business after staying in jail. So when she was in jail, she got this information that your mother is still what she has been doing.

So after leaving the jail, he went and killed her.

But was he Babu Baloch's biological child or?

This I cannot confirm.

Okay.

Whether he was or not, it is possible. But whatever it is, the mother is the mother. No matter who the father is, biologically, but you were born from the womb of that woman. You killed her. Then he can kill anyone. from the womb of the crime.

It has happened in our country too.

Next question is very important. Now I would like to ask you about a character. SP Chaudhary Aslam.

People used to say that he is Taliban hunter. One of his name was Yaro Ka Yaar.

One of his name was Yaro Ka Yaar. The other was Baba Kop. Why Baba Kop? It is an irony. The one he married, his name was Noreen. Noreen Aslam.

Noreen Aslam had a cousin.

He used to help in homework for Math homework. He married his own cousin? Yes. And he used to help Noreen with her homework. Especially with Mathematics. So they got closer. They fell in love and got married. I think Noreen has said this in a podcast.

As far as I know. So this happened. He had told Naurin that you will see. People who keep making up stories about me and my character. One day a film will be made on me. Today we are talking about Dhurandhar. But there will be a film on him in Pakistan.

I think at some point of time they made a film on his life. And one of his relatives I think played the character, title role. Toh Chaudhary Aslam ne, dekhi wo bahut bhavuk aagme hai. For example, uska naam Chaudhary jo hai uska ek, it's a title he adopted. Wo normally Punjabi Laila Nauts mein hote hain. He adopted the title. His point was that a terrorist and a criminal have the same justice. Kill them.

Because they have so much power, they can buy anyone. They have the legal support, they have the political support, they have got support from my own department. To inke saath justice kaise hoga? Yeh jail mein jaake rajaon ki taara rehte hai, ghar mein toh rehte hi hai. So they will always get away with their crime. To inko khatam kar toh ekdum se from the roots. Toh isliye hi wo sabke bahut badey dushman ban gaye the. And the units he laid, there he fought very strongly against the Taliban insurgents. And therefore he had

too many enemies. Aur unke khilaf ek fake encounter ka case tha, jisme wo jail mein gaye the. Baadme unko bail mil gaya This is the same scene of Nabil Gabol. Yes, there is a scene. So had Nabil Gabol framed him? I cannot confirm that but of course it follows a possibility because he had publicly said that if the political support of Lihari's gangsters were not received, then these gangsters could never grow up like this. So he first blamed the body politic.

That they grow up with their blessings. He thought that the best way to do justice is clean them all.

So from your talks I am getting to know two things.

First thing is that Sanjay Dutt was apt casting for this person. Absolutely.

Second thing is that there are three heroes in Dhurandhar Universe. Yes. R. Madhavan, Ranveer Singh and Sanjay Dutt's character.

You are absolutely right. I don't know if we can call R. Madhavan a hero or not. But he is like a Kingmaker. He's a puppeteer. The grand plan is his. And he is sitting and writing the script for the play.

The opening scene of Sanjay Dutt where he is meeting the Balochis and says that I will bring it on hash.

Will this continue? This is very common.

What? Drug deals?

Yes, I mean, the people who work in the police or in the narcotics department, in any law enforcement agency, there to strike a deal, to lure, a lot of such things are done which are actually illegal. But you do it in larger interest.

Okay.

For example, we give some criminals the freedom to become approvers. Your punishment will be reduced. Or we will send you to witness protection program. You will not be punished. But the case will be solved.

I am also asking that do you think he actually met people like that on the field and killed them on the spot?

Very much possible.

For SP Chaudhary Aslam?

Absolutely possible. Because he was very brutal when it came to this kind of annihilation. He had no emotion in it. He probably had to think that if I am am treating a criminal like this, then it is a matter of honesty. Because whatever he did...

He deserves it.

Okay.

I think finally he was killed in a suicide bomber attack.

Yes. It is accused of the Taliban. It seems that there was a group of Taliban who had a suicide bomb. It was a suicide attack. They had come in a jeep with explosives. And they shot in their car. When he was driving, he was also driving his car.

They shot him in the car. He died in the blast. But the subliminal layers here, I'm sure SP Choudhary Aslam had a lot of enemies after a point. Of course. All the gangsters would be his enemies. Because he never killed another gangster using one. Or if he would have used them it only for information or intelligence collection. I am speculating.

But taking money from someone, killing him, killing her, this never happened. When he caught Rehman Dakaid, then he was told from Bhutto's Quarterly said not to kill him, not to encounter him, to present him in the court. And then with the permission of the court, it was said that he should be kept in some other safe house, where he should not be kept in any jail, I mean, he should not be kept in a jail, I mean, in a general prison. And then where was he kept?

That very Clifton area, which is probably an area of criminals more than an army housing society. He was kept there and ran away from there.

Okay, which is shown in Part 1 through a montage,

that Rehman Taked was caught in the morning and released in the evening. montage and after that he was never caught again and then he was killed so sometimes when this happens so people like Aslam what do police officers feel? they feel humiliated they feel defeated by their own

yeah that's why this is the origin of fake encounters any police officer I can tell you with responsibility doesn't want to do fake fake encounter. Sometimes he also becomes helpless and then he forgets to draw a line. Then he doesn't know what is right and what is wrong. He feels that one day

finish the job because this will always remain. Again to recall the climax of Durandar 1, the final scene where Raman Takaid is killed. Okay, this is in line with real history where SP Chaudhary Aslam was involved in that encounter. Correct. Right? Correct. Do you know how he was killed? Headshot, was he beaten? What was it? He was shot for sure. SP Choudhury, I don't think he was someone who would like to torture Rahman Dakaid who would have tortured Rahman Dakaid with Choudhury or someone else. That was not his culture I think. If he wants to kill somebody, crack crack Okay. That goes with his character and style.

But after Rehman Taqeer's actual death, then, historically speaking, Uzair Baloch had a rise.

Absolutely.

First, the funeral that took place in Lihari, it is said that there has never been a bigger funeral in the history of Lihari. It was a procession of so many people. And then Uzair Baloch entered the fray.

Alongside a gentleman called Hamza or no?

Hamza is definitely a fictitious character. I can't say how much of a composite he is. But we won't be able to trace him.

In what year was Rahman Daked killed? 2009. And Uzair Baloch's rise to power was probably over the next 5-6 years. trace Ashutosh Bapu, who was killed in 2013. This is the plot of Part 2, I am sure. I haven't seen Part 2.

I think in Part 2, Hamza's character may have killed some targets one by one. I am saying this because I don't know if I can take this liberty or not. But it is also possible that the sources of my book are probably the same people who helped in writing the story of Dhurandhar. Because ultimately only a certain section of people will know what happened and what didn't happen.

So, because we saw the name of Zahoor Mistry in the list, it is possible that Zahoor Mistry... We will see how he was killed in Dhurandar 2. And don't forget that we have seen Zahoor Mistry in Dhurandar 1. In IC-814 hijacking, where Ajit Dawal's character goes and negotiates with him. He cuts Rupin Katyal's throat.

He completely dismisses Ajit Dawal. character Zahoor Ibrahim Mistry, his name in Pakistan was Zahid Akund. He couldn't answer. He thought how do they know? They would have shot him in the head. At that time who was the National Security Advisor of our country? Ajit Doval again. So these can be very uncanny coincidences or by design, who knows? And after that, in Pakistan, for the next 1.5 to 2 years, one after another, the list of India's most wanted is killed one after another.

Bashir Ahmed Pir is one of them. Saeed Khalid Raza is one of them. Harivinder Singh, Sandhu, alias Rinda, is killed, who used to help Niger in Canada. So, they are killed one by one. So, let us see. I am only saying all this because we have already seen Zahoor Misra's name in Hamza's diary.

So, I really want to see how Hamza kills him. I am sure in the movie they will show Hamza only killing. I think so. Right? I think so. But, the timeline is stretched to 2024. I don't know.

I mean, this story, the list of India is very long. That list is never going to end. Those two or three very premium names got involved in that, when Niger was killed, it was killed. Then attempt on Gurpat Ran Singh Pannun was failed. There are many other names in the list. But again, the names of the list are not written with a hit list. These are all evolutions.

When no one is left, it is always the last resort.

Okay, historically speaking, and I am assuming by now, there will be a lot of viewers who have seen Dhurandar 2. Therefore, my question to you is historical. What happened in the actual Laiyari underworld, Karachi underworld, after the chapter of Uzair Baloch? Because in this podcast, you said that he basically lost power after a point. He had to submit himself to the ISI.

He had to.

There was a situation where he was picked up from Dubai on an Interpol notice. Whatever happened with the ISI, it happened. And he had leaked the information about where Kulbhushan Jadhav would be. After that he was tried in a military court. And he was sent to the barracks of Pakistan army.

Are they eating Nihari or chilling?

Absolutely possible because he helped ISI for a long time. And as I said, intelligence agencies, smuggling, curtails, arm suppliers, terror funding, all these people work together. Because when information comes, he is the master of it.

He is living a comfortable life right now.

Absolutely. Pakistan has always had this history that you do a big job for us after that protection and protection.

Okay. Now back to Lyari. You asked what happened after that in and protection. Okay. Now back to Lihari.

You asked what happened after that in Lihari. Historically, no such gangster came up after that who took Lihari under his control with political power or going hand in hand with politics and ISI and Pakistan army. History doesn't say much of that. And they say that Lihari has been controlled to a great extent. But as far as extortion rackets are concerned, drug and arms supply, Pakistan is a big part of the crime syndicates. In which ISI is fully involved. Not just today, throughout history ISI has been involved in smuggling of drugs right

from Afghanistan to the western countries. Pakistan through international airways through which heroin and hashish was transported to American airports or European countries when Pakistan was caught in those days in 80s 200-300 kg heroin was caught

then a stage came where American parents started protesting that our children are dying from drugs coming from all the newspapers.

There were a lot of publications in the newspapers. So, the government of America, General Zia was in power in the mid 80s. He was told that the World Bank loan was pending of 3.2 billion dollars and it will be closed. You stop all this first. We don't want to see another Pakistan plane carrying drugs into our soil. That was a time when India was discovered by them as a transit country.

So their drug business is coming from everyone. Because the drug that was being sold in America, the sale proceeds of that were going back to fund Afghan rebels. This was a CIA operation. But it was backfiring because when, this is what happened. This is the dichotomy of intelligence operations. That you are fighting Russia by helping the rebels.

But when the drug is reaching America, your own children are dying. That's it. I mean it happens almost everywhere. So Pakistan history has always been there. So it is still going on. But nobody is like Rahman Daqai or Uzair Baloch you know who has come up and who is doing all this not history is not saying that. Nobody has become a leader. It's basically what I'm trying to say. It's a disorganized system. See, there will be organized crime too. Unless and until a criminal tries to become a politician,

he doesn't come in the public life. Got it. So then if he's only happy with his crime proceeds, then he's there. Got it. Okay, Mitra sahib, thank you. It was fun. This was the episode for today. Very brutal podcast, very truth oriented episode. What was your intention for the audiences? What should the audience know? I would like to thank you, Ranveer, for considering me to come to your show. Pleasure, sir. I hope I have been able to answer you.

No, no. It was fantastic, sir. I hope that whatever we discussed, it offers something new, a new perspective to the audience. Because the films that come to the audience, they have to compose a lot of characters in a certain timeline and tell a story. But in real life, they can be more brutal, more gory, more unfortunate. Which you can't show in the screenplay.

Yeah, you know, in this entire episode, we have talked less about Azitya Dhar Bhai. But kudos to him. He has a whole ecosystem, universe.

Yeah, salute.

Salute to him.

Genuinely, I feel this is national service. There is a section of audiences which is very anti-Dhurandhar. You know, and they are letting their political opinion creep into their opinion on the film.

Those are their personal comments. But if someone says that D Durandhar is a propaganda, then what he is saying has an agenda. We should not forget this. From a media perspective, Aditya Dhar has ripped it apart. It's a great piece of work.

Absolutely, because he has opened a new universe for the Indian people, for the Indian audience. And audience anywhere in the world. We have never seen anything like this in Pakistan. Cinema has a purpose. I believe that the purpose is to affect the way you see the world.

To widen your world view. Definitely. Definitely, it was a very aggressive film, Durandar. But because of that, I feel India will take more interest in geopolitics. Which is very important for the average Indian. So, I feel ki Gen Z iske liye...

Haan wo samay aagaya hai India mein. Log jyada interest lene lagey hain. Isi liye hi abhi India mein hum logon ko covert operation ke baare mein jyada jaanne ko milta hai, sunay padta hai than you know what it was in the past. Toh mujhe aisa ragta hai ki yes salute salute to Aditya Dhar and he has done a great service to I would say not just Indian audience to people at large in India. Because we have to see something and read something in the newspaper. He has shown us everything.

You know he's on course to becoming one of India's greatest ever filmmakers. The way it's going. And. And finally, the filmmakers are also being celebrated. Love Ranveer Singh.

He has opened the floodgate of this particular genre.

Yeah.

You know, love everything that Ranveer Singh has done. Plus, I'm 110% sure that here, Ranveer Singh's brain has also been operated pre-Dhurandar.

He's definitely conceptualized this alongside Aditya Dha. But kudos to both of them. You know, they've killed it bringing this cast together. I just want to see more of Ranveer Singh in part two.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because in part one, he prepared his whole pitch. He was sent on a mission. How you have to play one against the other.

Yeah.

He did everything very successfully. Hamza's character. And probably now that situation is coming whereby he will, let's see.

Yeah.

So being with us, sir, genuinely, it was a lot of fun.

Thank you so very much.

No, our pleasure.

It's such a pleasure.

Our pleasure, sir.

Thank you.

Great.

Jai Hind.

Jai Hind. So, basically, before every episode, we have started a pre-planned thing, which is, we set intentions, like, for the piece. And usually, intention is not related to host or guest. For me, the very human intention of this is, I feel that I am doing some service for the country. I don't know exactly what.

But yes, ek entertainment ka angle hai, log bahut kuch seekhenge, psychology samjhenge logon ki, doosron ki, especially jo psychology of evil hoti hai, wo sab hoga. But on some level, and I don't know what the level is, I'm looking at this as Desh Ke Le Seva. So, do you have any intention yourself with this piece? Absolutely because if you see

what I write normally I always have that in my mind. Same? Same. Okay. Mission what I write normally I always have that in my mind. Same? Same. Okay. Mission towards country? 100%. Okay. Spot on. So that's the intention behind this? Spot on.