What the hell happened to Trump’s hair?

Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Jon Favreau.I'm Dan Pfeiffer.On today's show, we're going to talk about Trump's new threat to send gas prices back up at what was ostensibly an affordability stop in Vegas, where he also debuted the Republican argument against Abdul El -Sayed and other progressives.We'll also talk about Abdul's general election argument, the final days of the Wisconsin primary, and the new $15 million centrist plan to go to war against the Democratic Socialists of America.Fun.On the Republican side, the Max Miller story has somehow become even more revolting.

Another House Republican resigns over inappropriate conduct with staffers and the draft Tucker Carlson for president movement has begun.Then Dan talks to David Crowley, the Milwaukee County executive who's trying to catch Francesca Hong in the Democratic primary for Wisconsin governor.Before we start, just a reminder that Crooked Con tickets are available now and they are are going fast, so you're going to want to get them.This year's event is going to be even bigger and better, starting with a Pod Save America live show on Thursday, November 5th, and strict scrutiny and love it or leave it live shows on Friday, November 6th, and then on Saturday, November 7th in DC.That's the big event.We'll have a full day of panels and interviews with the smartest and least annoying elected officials and strategists in the party.

Can we promise least annoying?I mean, we're going to be there.I don't know.Who knows?I don't know, it's a high bar.

How about not the most annoying?

Yeah, I think we can do not the most annoying.Yeah.I think we can make that promise.If you're a friend of the pod, you get a special discounted rate for these tickets.And if you're not already a subscriber, what are you waiting for?Head to crookedcon .

com to get your tickets and become a friends of the pod subscriber.All right, let's get to the news.While the factional war within the Democratic Party continued to rage this week, the Republican president, with the record low 38 % approval rating, took his traveling circus to Vegas, where he appeared with Governor Joe Lombardo at an event where the intended message was supposed to be about theParty's efforts to make life easier for working Americans.Let's see how they did.We'll start with Lombardo here talking about Trump.

Quite often when the press and the media runs them down, they think about, you know, he's taking care of his billionaire friends.But those billionaire friends provide jobs.So I know Pastor Tice spoke about Officer Abdel Nabi a few moments ago.No, no, we're not booing.We're not booing him.He's the officer that passed away here recently, so.

The tariffs have made us rich.Remember I used to say that tariffs are my favorite word.I love tariffs.They're my favorite word in the dictionary, tariff.When gasoline, when oil goes down, and it's gonna go down very rapidly, and it's happening very soon, already happening, if you look.Today it's $75, down to $75, it's dropping.

And we may have to send it up again.We may have to.You know what happens when we send it up?I saw polls today on television.I say Donald Trump polls on the economy aren't good.The economy is the greatest economy we've ever had by far.

Wow.Lots to unpack there, Dan.Before we zero in on that disciplined affordability messaging, the moment that got the most attention were all the boos you just heard when Lombardo invoked the name of Officer Abdel Nabi, a Vegas police officer who was shot and killed in the line of duty on Tuesday.What do you think could have possibly led the crowd to boo the name of a heroic law enforcement officer and former Marine?

It's hard to find a better example of the racism, jingoism, Islamophobia that has become part and parcel of Republican politics, even for years now, even before the Trump era, that just at the mere mention of a name that sounds muchthe crowd boos.

Truly, truly upsetting.And Lombardo's like, no, no, no, don't boo.And then Trump later says his name as well and has to calm the crowd down.

So it's shocking, but not surprising that this happened.I think also the thing that's very disappointing is, like you said, it got a lot of attention.It got a lot of attention on Twitter.It got some news coverage.But you and I were talking about this earlier, but in 2012, there was a Republican primary presidential debate and they had they were doing video questions submitted.I'm sure there was some like very anachronistic social media tie into this debate, like it was a Facebook debate or something.

They had a video from a soldier who had served in Iraq who was gay, and he was asking the Republicans if they were going to roll back the progress that had been made on LGBTQ rights.and the crowd booed.And it was like a four day story.And every Republican had to come back and say they wish they told the crowd not to boo.And here it just happens.And it's like, oh, obviously this is what happens to Trump's America.

And we just move on.

You said that it was hard to find another example, but I have one Tuesday.I don't know if you saw that in the Republican primary in Michigan's 8th district, Trump's preferred candidate, Amir Hassan, who he campaigned with in person the other day at the at the GM plant, lost to a candidate named Tom Smith, who dropped out of the race a month ago.This is Amir Hassan.In his campaign literature, it said, Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior.He talks about how he's a Christian.Guy's a former veteran, former Marine, cop, former cop.

The NRCC spent money on this race.Trump endorsed.Trump appeared with him.Trump endorsed him on Truth Social and lost to a guy that spent no money and dropped out of the race.month earlier, because his name was Tom Smith.

Well, John, he's also a salsa magnet.He has his own line of salsas.I did not know that.Yeah, he's a former GM engineer.

So maybe it's an anti -salsa vote then.

Maybe it is an anti -salsa vote.And this is not an insignificant deal, because this is a district that Trump won by two points, that has a Democrat sitting in it, Kristen McDonnell Rivett.And so this would have been a potential NRCC target.She's a very strong candidate.She outperformed Kamala Harris by nine points last time.But the reason Trump got involved here was to try to get a candidate they thought could win.

Republican voters were like, look, Trump has a lot of pull, but his pull is not stronger than my own personal racism.So I'm going to take the defunct zombie candidate with the salsa instead.

Oh, I'm sorry.The guy that won is the salsa magnet.

Yes.The guy who won is the salsa magnet.

Oh, sorry.Tom Smith is the salsa magnet.So then it was a pro -salsa vote then.Yeah, I just I gonna go on a limb and say that large majorities were probably primary voters are not familiar with jarhead salsa Which was named after his three sons were Marines and they just went with the whitest name possible which is Tom Smith and just in case you think that we're just guessing about the Islamophobia here and the racism when Trump endorsed him on truth social It was just flooded with comments from Trump supporters like have you lost your mind endorsing Muslim candidates and no Muslims in America No Muslims in office or this one is a little more subtle His name gives me pause call me racist, but I am merely being cautious Obama comes to mind subtle So that's just a few of the remarks, a few of the reactions to Trump's endorsement of Amir Hassan.So things are going great with the Republican Party.On affordability, how psyched do you think swing state voters are to hear that Trump is sending up the price of oil again?

He's going to have to send it up.And the people of Nevada hearing the Republican governor saying, hey, they should just be grateful to all the billionaires for providing all those jobs.

Let's take these two things separately for a second.So let's start with gas prices.Now, most of the time when gas prices go up, presidents go out of their way to make it clear that gas prices, it's a global oil market.There are lots of things the president is not personally responsible for.Not Trump.He swings in the other direction and leans in directly to say, look, I am the guy me. I decide whether they go up or down and I may decide to make them go up again.

Just FYI.That's me.Donald J. Trump, the gas price raising guy.That's me.Truly.

And what does he even I guess he's I guess he's.Referencing that he may attack Iran.Yeah, he's threatening to bomb Iran again, right but also He was in the oval right before he recorded someone asked him About this this potential deal between Iran and Oman about the Strait of Hormuz and he's like, well, we kind of control it already Kind of no, he's I'm sorry.He said it's kind of open already.We control it So which is also interesting because it's like it's if we control it, why is it only kind of open?the truth is If they make a deal Iran and Oman about the Strait of Hormuz notice, we're not involved Iran still controls the Strait and they will be charging a They want to charge a a five to seven percent fee for all the the tankers that go through the Strait of Hormuz.

And Gregory Brew, who's an Iran expert on Twitter, was just crunching the numbers.And he said a 5 % fee assessed on outbound tankers would translate into $52 million per day for the Iranian regime.So we are currently spending$1 billion a day, taxpayer dollars, all of us, we're spending this on a war that has left 18 Americans dead, hundreds wounded, and is going to result in status quo from before the war with the addition of Now Iran controls the strait and is making $52 million a day.And I guess the regime is slightly different in that they are younger and more radical than the old regime.

Yes.Yes.So things are going great.There's also a Washington Post report over the weekend that the reason why Trump canceled his planned attack on Iran was not because of the pending deal, but because he had a blow up with Pete Hegsath over the fact that we are running out of missiles.

Yes.And then he and then he threatened to jail the person who leaked that story, which is a fake story, which is also tricky to do both of those things.The story isn't real.It's totally made up, but I'm going to fire the person that leaked the made up story.

So they're talking about the billionaire thing for a second.

Yes.Let's talk about the billionaire.Because several billionaires were in attendance.

Yes.Which is also funny because it is to one is repeating the Democratic attack, which is never what you want.But then he's like the basic gist of Lombardo's message is, yes, Trump is helping billionaires.He is definitely doing that.But some of those billionaires, they help you.

I like that.I like that the old.The old Republican Party, the non -MAGA Republican Party, and the least politically popular part of that party is sort of roaring back just in time for the midterm election.Are you familiar with the Great Burrito debate of 2026?

Talk to me about this, because I really struggle to keep up with it.

This is a Twitter thing, but it has involved everyone from...

And when I want information on Twitter things, if Elijah's not available, I go to you.

Thank you.Thank you.Well, let's just...just hear me out on the people involved in this.So Andrew Colvett of TPUSA, Charlie Kirk's producer, now sort of in charge of TPUSA, said that one of their college students in one of the TPUSA chapters told him recently that a burrito shouldn't cost twenty dollars.Matt Walsh of The Daily Wire, he was complaining about the price of groceries.

And Andrew Colvett said, you know, I'm hearing this from kids.They said the burrito shouldn't cost $20.Mark Thiessen, who's the former Bush speechwriter, who is now, you know, full time warmonger on Fox News, has advised Trump to fight this war in Iran, loves war, loves nothing more than war.He jumped in and just like had several tweets in response to Andrew Colvett.That said, uh, a burrito only costs $20 when you buy it on DoorDash because you're too lazy to walk over to Chipotle or Taco Bell where you can get one for $3 .99.When I graduated, I lived on ramen noodles, had two roommates and worked two jobs.

I didn't whine about affordability.I worked hard so I could one day afford a better life.And then he wasn't done yet.So he had another tweet.Cry me a river.The burritos in the college cafeteria are included in your meal plan.

And then it would have ended there.But, um, JD Vance.back from paternity leave and apparently back from swearing off shit posting on Twitter as Susie Wiles had advised him to do, decided to jump right in here and say, I'm surprised to hear Mark say this.If you've ever met him in person, it's quite obvious the man has never missed a burrito.

Yeah.A couple of things on that.One, JD Vance, not exactly a - Skipping a lot of burritos?Just I'm not here to comment on his weight, but I don't think he is at such and such a great shape that he can be casting aspersions on.others, um, to calling Marty's and fat on Twitter is possibly the most likable and popular thing JD Vance has ever done.

I know that is tough.That is tough.I did welcome him back to Twitter when he did that.I was, I was very, I said, welcome back.Welcome back to shit.Did he respond to you?

Uh, he did it.He did it, but I will, um, I will continue to try and debate him.So, uh, and then Dan Crenshaw, remember Dan Crenshaw, our Congressman, he just lost his primary.So he won't be coming back to Congress, so he must have felt a little liberated.He decided to tweet out of the blue just to dive into this debate.Just hearing about this dumb $20 burrito debate, so just thought I'd make the losers on social media angry before going to bed.

Stop whining, get a job, eat ramen like the rest of us did in college.A lot of ramen references.On a budget with four roommates, the market doesn't care what you think something should cost.Did you eat a lot of ramen in college?No.No, I didn't.

I did.I ate a ton of ramen.

Really?I'm like not a ramen person.

I like I don't I've probably eaten ramen like once but we're talking about ramen like We're trying to instant ramen.We're not talking.

Yeah, no, I know.I've seen the some local.

It's a kayak.We went to also.

I also haven't had that.

Yeah.

At the localist guy.Great message.I think I think they're firing on all cylinders on affordability as we head into the midterms.We lose to these people.I think stop.I think it's a great message to give to voters.

Stop whining.We talked about this on our on our bonus episode and we talked about Michigan.But Mike Rogers in Michigan has a whole bunch of these comments.about, you know, people should be like, oh, the price of coffee.Oh, boo hoo.So a lot of a lot of bad stuff out there for Republicans on affordability.

One more thing about this event before we leave the Vegas event.This might have been more important than anything Trump said.It was his new look, which is our 80 year old president appears to have grown a new head of hair.overnight.Take a look at these photos, Dan, from last week and this week.We've got a side -by -side.

Again, if you're just listening, you're going to need to start watching on YouTube, especially for this.Jesus Christ.

Can I do the description here?Yes, Dan, please.Okay.So on the left, this is the quote -unquote before photo.Trump's hair is kind of a shade of gray, I'd say it is stringy.It is not covering the full scalp.

He looks a little bit like like a ferret that just got out of the bath with alopecia, like it's not a good look.Right.And on the right, the after photo, if you will, he has a lush head of hair that covers everything.It is flowing.It's also an entirely different color.than the one from a few days ago.

It looks like something that RFK Jr. would peel off the road and eat.

I think he looks like it looks like he is in a 1970s shampoo commercial.Like that is some real hair there.Like he could be he could be in the Partridge family like that is good hair.I don't hate it.It's not a good color.Doesn't seem real.

It's going in directions that hair should not go.But it is more hair than he had a few days before.

And like I said, a very different color looks like.Oh, is it a wig?Is it?

I think he's got extensions put in there.I think they added something.

Yeah.And he got it.

He got it colored, I guess.I mean, to match the extensions.Yeah.With the highlighter.I mean, I mean, it is.His face also looks very different, too.

They all look like different people.

Did he get it sprayed with the same stuff they're using on all the statues in D .C.?Is it that you use some of the paint from the oval for his hair?

Yeah, there is.There is a little bit of like gold to it, I guess.Anyway, I guess good for him.

But that I mean,

I read a I read a People magazine story on this because I wanted to do real research.And it is says we called the White House for two to get comment on the president's new hair.They did not respond, which is surreal.

Tell right there is Caroline Levin.

She's briefing again, right?I hope someone's asking this question.

Oh, definitely.

Someone will ask it.We need to get these TMZ guys or making they're making the rounds in DC.

We got to get them on this story I gotta say I don't you know, I don't usually buy into these various Trump conspiracies And yeah, but it really looks like something happened with the hair something changed.There's no way I'm the same head of hair Yeah, okay.I'm buying this one.I hook line and sinker.Call me a resist lib.Call me blue I go whatever it is. I I believe this one It's, you can't not.

I can see with my own eyes.You have eyes.

Yeah.

Yes.Okay.Thank you.Thank you.

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Jolie is also available on Amazon.All right, on to more important stuff.Now that the Michigan primary is - There's nothing more important than that.Now that the Michigan primary is behind us, everyone is in spin mode and trying to project confidence about the course ahead.Here's Trump in Vegas about Abdul.

Abdul El -Sayed, lovely gentleman.He's a man of hate.And now he's going around saying, no, I love everybody.He doesn't love everybody.Put him in office.You're going to find out what he loves.

He doesn't love Israel.He doesn't love Jewish people.He hates them.He hates them with a passion that burns in his heart, and there's not a frickin' thing he can do about it.Filth.Crime.

Death.Destruction.Embarrassment.You lose your home.you lose your apartment, and that's where the communists will take us 100%.When I watch Abdul, he's full of shit.

I don't quite... what is he full of shit about?

Yeah, that's not, I know this is the exception to Trump's usually logical and easily understood explanations, but yeah, no, it doesn't make a lot of sense here.

It is funny how, and I know this is not the first time, but they really have made the full shift from socialism to communism.They were flirting with both for a while and now they've just gone full, they've left socialism behind.

the last, I would say the day before the day of, and the day after the Michigan primary are all sort of a blur, but didn't Trump at some point truth something about how Haley Stevens was a socialist and Abdul was a communist?

Yes.I don't even know if he said Abdul was a communist in that tweet.He said he, he did Abdul's full name, um, to do some of the racism.And then he, then he referred to Haley Stevens as a socialist.

Socialist.Yeah.Okay.But he had previously referred to Abdul as a communist.He hasn't.as a true scholar of the works of Karl Marx and Lenin, he has a very well understood distinction between communists and socialists, and I'm sure it's being applied correctly here.

I will say on election day, our friends at MSNOW, I was tuning in, and multiple times I saw up on the screen this very bland chart that was comparing communism and socialism, just to give people a rundown of the difference between the two.

which is not where you want to be on our party right now.It's like, look, he's not a communist.

I had a socialist.I don't, I, I, you know, someone will have to correct me. I don't know what the context was.Cause he had it muted.Cause that was working, but I'm like, what, why did he say that?popping up on my screen anyway?So for his part, Abdul has been doing lots of interviews, including this one with CNN's Caitlin Collins on Wednesday night.

We've heard some Democrats who are worried that you cannot defeat Mike Rogers come November.How do you plan to address those concerns from from people in your own party?

We don't need worry, we need work.Worrying, and Democrats worrying, is not going to solve the problem.

She is now supporting you, now that you have won the nomination.Are you going to invite her to campaign with you out on the trail?

Look, we need everybody together to beat Mike Rogers.I'm grateful.We had a great conversation this morning.We talked about a hard -fought primary.You know, I've known the congresswoman since 2018, since we ran together.And again, whatever our disagreements, we know that the disagreements we have with Mike Rogers and Donald Trump are so much bigger.

So given how many votes she got, will she be on the campaign trail with you?

Look, I should hope so.That's a choice that she gets to make.There are people like J .D.Vance or Donald Trump or Mike Rogers who want to define America as being too small to include some kinds of people.I believe that America is big.

It's open minded.It's big hearted.It can include any of us, regardless of how we pray, regardless of where our families come from, regardless of who we love or how we identify.That's the America we're building.And I think America and Michigan in particular has an opportunity to remind us just how big we are.

What do you think of.Abdul's unity message there, the inevitable attention he's now getting from Trump.And one thing that was on my mind as I was watching that and just sort of seeing the last couple of days play out, it seems like what Abdul has to do, one of the many tasks he has now is so much of the coverage of this race and the discussion about this race is centered on him.And it feels like he needs to sort of turn the ship so that it focuses on Trump and Mike Rogers.And I wonder if you have thoughts on how we can do that.

I do.So on the unity side, his message is great.I think, I think you and I may have talked about this in the bonus pod we did, but it's even more true now than it was when we recorded right after the election.Abdul, Haley Siemens, Malai McMurrow, Gresham Whitmer, everyone involved has done an excellent job.They've done exactly what they need to.Even the people who are some of Abdul's biggest opponents on Twitter have come around and are tweeting out donation links for him.

Everyone understands the urgency of the task.among at least the political elites in the establishment.And I think that is this could have been divisive.It could have lingered on.It did not.They had the unity breakfast, which was previously scheduled was held this morning.

Abdul and Haley hugged on camera during that when she came to the stage.I think like there we were doing exceeding all expectations there.

Yeah, I agree.

I think that is that is great.I think Trump get it.Involving himself in this race is also great for Abdul.Trump has a 38 percent approval rating, according to some polls in Michigan.Talk about it all the time.Come campaign with Mike Rogers.

Come many times.Talk about it.It will only help with the voters who are skeptical of Abdul, but very much disapprove of Trump.That is be very, very helpful.I think that's great.I think it's going to take a little bit.

You got to get through this immediate post -primary cycle where everything is going to be about Abdul, where the race goes.Can you win?Like that has to wash out the system.I think him doing all these interviews Just helps wash that out of the system early on instead of lingering.He's got to just make it all about Mike Rogers all the time.We've got to get an ad up about Mike Rogers.

Got to be talking about Mike Rogers.Got to be talking about Mike Rogers and Trump.Just don't like you have to answer the questions from the press, but, and I think he's done a pretty good job of this in these interviews.This is immediately pivot to Mike Rogers.This is the same thing we had in Maine, where it was all Graham Platner for a year and nothing about Susan Collins.And then as soon as Trey Jackson got in the race, he was like,

make it about Susan Collins.I think Abdul has got to do that.There's probably think of some high profile ways to do it.He could give a speech that sort of lays out the case against Mike Rogers.You could use an ad or a video to do it.I think we'll look at one of these videos shortly, but it's just like, that is the task.

Um, and it's, there's a, you can, there's always a fear of over -complicating these tasks because.Abdul has very big visions for politics, very big visions for policy.But right now we need people to focus on who Mike Rogers is, why he's bad, and how much he's in Donald Trump's pocket.

And I also think as he does that, the images of Abdul and the settings where he is, is going to be important too.And I think he just needs to go to all the places in Michigan, where maybe he didn't do as well on the primary.And like, there's Abdul with older people, there's Abdul with more older white men, and working class folks, and black folks in Detroit, and like, all the constituencies that supported him in the primary, like, he's He's got those, he's got those folks.And as he is talking about how Mike Rogers has let down Michigan and Donald Trump has let down Michigan and will continue to do that, he should be around the kind of voters that you wouldn't think Abdul would be able to attract.I think that's probably important too.

I think that that's, that's the thing that I believe I did so many podcasts about this race on Wednesday.Um, but it is, you never saw in the primary Abdul's campaign do anything that was counterintuitive in terms of who supported him.

Yeah.

Like where, you know, you like, it's a classic thing, but he says all the time that these three time Trump voters come to his events and say they're supporting him.Put him in an ad.

Yeah.Right.

Get to the rural areas.And he did a lot of part of it's what breaks through.And one of the reasons why he actually won is because he performed better than people thought he could in the upper peninsula of Michigan.And because he went to the he did 450 campaign events.So he was doing town halls in some of these places.But that stuff just didn't get as much attention as campaigning with AOC.

campaigning with Bernie, the big rallies.Um, and so just, you know, kind of getting a load of the ground and doing more of that stuff will be helpful.

Yes.Yeah.And I would not, I would, uh, I would stop campaigning with the streamers and, uh, and maybe some, and here's the thing I don't actually think.You know, this is not a like he should campaign with Republicans who elected Republicans who are for him or who used to be Republicans that are now Democrats.Like because I think people just don't tend to trust politicians in general.Right.

With the exception of like, yes, of course, we talked about this yesterday that he should like bring out Obama towards the end of the race and people like that.But I think it's the vote.It's the voters that you're seen with that are most important.Right.We're going to laugh saying this, but Axarot always told Obama, like, you got to be close to the ground, right?Because you got to be with the voters, with crowds of people, in small settings, in places where, again, it's unexpected.

And then say the thing that's going to break through about Mike Rogers or about Trump, so that when you get covered, you have that backdrop.So the outside groups are also starting up their messaging efforts.We played the NRSC's first ad in the bonus episode that dropped on Wednesday.Senate Majority PAC, one of the mainstream Democratic groups, is countering with, among other things, this ad.

There comes a time in life when things start to slow down, when you just don't have the same energy you had 20 years ago.But there's a way to bring some excitement back.

What has not helped is the fact that the United States hasn't strongly said that military intervention is still on the table.

Introducing Endless War from Mike Rogers.

Side effects may include death, economic hardship, and global instability.Some patients have reported fuel shortages, which may cause inflation.Endless War has not been proven to make Americans any safer.

Ask your doctor if Endless War is right for you.

It's funny.It's clever.It's great.The log line of this ad should be, uh, the war in Iran gives Mike Rogers a four hour erection.

Yes, that would be the, that would be the, that would be turning up the dial one, one more.

I actually, I think that is great because it's never going to air on TV.It's for viral purposes only.You got to turn it up a little bit.Yeah.

It's good for Senate Majority PAC, you know, that's great.It looks like those establishment chills can, you know, can come through once in a while.

Yeah, this is there is a very smart, clever person somewhere in the digital department who had this idea and I really applaud the leadership for letting this idea see the light of day.

Yeah, that was great.So Trump didn't just mention Abdul in Vegas.He also told the crowd that, quote, the communists in Wisconsin have a woman who wants Thanksgiving abolished and says police exist to uphold white supremacy.He was speaking, of course, about Francesca Hong, who I interviewed on Tuesday's show.Later, you'll hear Dan's interview with her primary opponent.David Crowley, who has mounted a last ditch effort, along with Governor Tony Evers, to beat the frontrunner in Tuesday's big primary.

Evers told reporters on Thursday that someone who has to spend all their time explaining old tweets doesn't have a very good shot at winning.Crowley has also circulated a polling memo arguing that the race is closer than people think, drawing some comparisons in that memo to some of the polls in Michigan, the primary polls that sort of over estimated Abdul support in that race and grew parallels in some of the Wisconsin polling.I know you spoke to Crowley.Thoughts on his chances and just and how the race is closing and that polling memo.

It's hard to say how the race is closing, because as Michigan taught us, we really are flying blind here.Yeah, no real idea.And because it's even hard to decouple exactly why the polls were all wrong.Like there's John Cohen, who was a polling guy.I talked to this on Polar Coaster yesterday, but he was a polling guy for the Post.He worked at Survey Monitor.

Now he's got his own firm, but he went through and analyze all the polls in the short version is they're all different.They're all wrong for different reasons.

Thanks.Cool.Cool.Cool.Cool.

It's not like one clear error.There are some where they misjudged how much mail was in the place.There are some that were that, that oversampled young birds, all kinds of different reasons.So it's very confusing to know, which means that we don't really know what's happening in Wisconsin.It is possible.that one point that that was made in this is that all of the polls except one in Michigan were online text to text to web polls.

And so that those polls do have a potential for get oversampling, more educated, more engaged voters that may have benefited Abdul.Um, that could, the same thing could be the same.You're going to get the same possible situation in Wisconsin in, in those polls.Now, Hong is leading by a lot more in these polls than Abdul was.So even a polling error of the same size would still have her winning by double digits.Um, but Crowley's memo is interesting because they basically maps the polling to the turn, the turnout by age in the 2018 and 2022, uh, Wisconsin primaries.

And if you do that with their polls, it gets you to 32, 32.We'll see.So it's hard to know.There has been a lot of attention.for the last week on Hong and her, her comments, her response to comments.Um, you have Bernie Sanders to you, uh, on our Wednesday night pod saying that he's not endorsing her, um, real questions about her electability.

So if there is an actual opportunity for this race to close and Crowley has the resources to actually pull this off, it's happening in the right political environment for him, but it may be too little too late.

Yeah.I mean, I have to, I have to be honest.Like I, I have more doubts.Hong's ability to win the general than than maybe almost any other candidate we've talked about.I could be wrong, you know, I mean, I'm not telling anyone how to vote.But I just, I want to make sure everyone in Wisconsin is, you know, clear about the risks here, like, even not knowing anything else.

She's running as a democratic socialist.in a state that Donald Trump won twice, one of the closest, most competitive states in the country.She has advocated for abolishing prisons and the police, who she said, as Trump mentioned, exist to uphold white supremacy.And then, I mean, you heard my interview with her, like when I gave her the chance to walk back those statements, she kind of did.But she also gave like at best a muddled answer where she talked about like, having met with justice -impacted individuals, which is not a phrase people use.There's the Bernie thing.

Just today, Zoran Mamdani was at some event in New York and was asked what part of the DSA platforms that he disagrees with.And immediately, immediately, very clearly, he said, oh, I break from them on public safety because we need our police force and we need our prisons.We need public safety.clear, like right out of the gate.And if you're going to have taken those positions in the past, right, again, it's not about like, you have bad tweets.It's not just about the Thanksgiving thing.

We've all heard about that.But if you're going to have those tweets, then like, you kind of need a pretty clear answer of why you've evolved since then, how your views have changed.You either say, oh, it was I met with people, I changed my mind, whatever else, and I do not have the confidence when I listen to her answers that she is going to be able to win an incredibly tough state.Now, again, maybe she will, maybe she'll improve as a candidate, but poof, it makes melittle nervous.

Yeah.Like what I like to say, you know, questions about electability is electability is an unknowable concept because the candidates who win are always elected when the candidates who lose are unelectable.And it's so it's all theory.It's a self -fulfilling theoretical concept.However, you can make some educated guesses on which candidate might be better.Those guesses could be wrong, but you can look at the partisanship of the state, a candidate's skills, where their issue agenda maps to the state.

Are they within the mainstream of the state, outside of the mainstream of the state?There's a pretty fair amount of polling, which shows that particularly in swing states, the label of democratic socialism is a anvil on your candidacy, which again, just which she embraces.

Right.Like it's not it's not like she's being tagged DSA unfairly or whatever.Like she's like, yeah, I'm running as a democratic socialist.

And so like obviously this is up to the people of Wisconsin.They will decide.And then everyone, ourselves included, everything we can to help the nominee win, whether that's whether that's Hong or Crowley.Um, but yeah, I don't think anyone is wrong to be concerned that she is likely to is a steeper hill for her to climb in what is going to be a very, very tough race than someone else.

Yeah.And look, I've also heard people say, well, she's, you know.Why is she so far ahead in the polls?And clearly, she's like run an inspiring campaign that's attracted a lot of support.I think that is that is true, clearly.But it's also been an unusually calm primary, like the last debate, they didn't really go after her or each other that much, like, for various reasons, whatever it may be, this just, it certainly was not like the Haley Stevens Abdul El -Sayed primary, where they kind of, you know, previewed Haley Stevens previewed some of the attacks that Abdul might get and Abdul, you know, certainly attacked her as well, but like

this one has been kind of quiet in Wisconsin.So she has not had to face what she surely will face from the Republican Party who are just sitting there and like getting excited about a general election.So the stuff that everyone's bringing up now, it's not like, you know, just nervous Democrats are doing it just just for fun or just to be mean or whatever, it's because it's definitely coming from Republicans and she just hasn't faced it yet.

Sure, campaign has clearly caught fire.She has inspired people.She's been much more inspiring than all the other candidates who were running.I mean, Crowley had to drop out of the race originally and then came back in the race.And I do like you and I as political professionals can look at this and make this assessment of why we think someone is more electable and someone isn't.If you're just a regular voter in Wisconsin who is hurting, who is frustrated, you're angry at the establishment, your finances are hurting, and you have this inspiring candidate who has a very powerful personal story of politics and offering this progressive agenda, I fully understand why they would back that person.

And I understand why they would be skeptical of either people like us or Governor Toni Evers, who has said publicly that she does not think she can win, why you would not take that to the bank?Because these people have told you, in election after election to put aside what you want for something else, because that gives us a better chance of winning.And then those candidates lose.And so I like this is not what you were doing, but there's no real upside in yelling at the voters for making a decision that I understand why they come to that decision, even if I think it maybe makes it less likely they get the outcome they want.in the end, because of the politics of the state.Yeah.

And I'm like, I know you're saying that, but I'm certainly not yelling at anyone.I'm just saying, you're informing them.If you have not gone, if you have not gone to the ballot box yet, just, you know, do some research on this.Think about this because this is not and like,I'm the same person who made an argument for Abdul in the Michigan primary, who's the left, the left candidate, and I've done so in many other cases as well.And this is the one that really rings some bells for me, raises some alarms, whatever the bad.

And just so that people understand the stakes, the Tom Tiffany, the Republican is an election denier, who would then be governor of Wisconsin, when they are certifying the votes of the 2028 presidential election.And Wisconsin, as I've said before, is a state that's been decided by one point in five of the last seven presidential elections.So it'll be right within the insurrection zone, most likely.

And for the people of Wisconsin, too, you have a chance in twenty twenty six to have a Democratic trifecta in the state of Wisconsin for the first time.So aside from just like stopping stopping the steal in twenty twenty eight, like there's just a chance to have a Democratic governor and Democratic legislature to get a lot of shit done.for the, like, gonna make people's lives better in Wisconsin, which is amazing.Okay, so between Abdul and Hong, there's been a lot of consternation among more moderate Democrats this week.You just heard some.Then there's the centrist group Third Way, which took that up a notch on Thursday with an announcement in the New York Times that they're planning to spend $15 million between now and 2028 to, quote, discredit democratic socialism.

The group's president, John Cowan, said they are preparing for war and that while the effort won't go after individual candidates, it will involve oppo research into the DSA.What do you think, Dan?Good use of time and money?

There are many reasons why the DSA has gained prominence in recent years.One of those is that Democrats feel let down by the moneyed establishment in our party.And so it's hard for me to believe that the moneyed establishment announcing in the New York Times$15 million campaign against the DSA is going to do anything other than reinforce the DSA's argument about where the Democratic Party is failing its voters.It is counterproductive.It is going to, at best case scenario, it's lighting $15 million that could be used to recruit and train candidates for grassroots organizing, lighting that on fire.

That's best case scenario.Most likely case scenario to me is it just strengthens the DSA's hand.I just do not understand it.You know, when I talked to Amanda Lipman, who runs Run for Something, which is one of the most important organizations in the Democratic Party a few weeks ago, I think she told me her yearly budget is $7 million.So think about what else that $15 million could go to.

It's wild.And like, you know, I know that Matt Bennett at Third Way sort of responded to you and said, and he's friended to me and was like, We're also supporting candidates, and we have a think tank, and we have some exciting ideas.And that may well be true, but that's not what anyone's hearing about when there's a story pitched to the New York Times about a $15 million plan to go to war with the DSA.That's what you're choosing to have break through.I just think that the whole plan here from the centrists is it feels very anachronistic, old school, like, if you don't like DSA, and it's not just DSA, because they're talking about Democratic Socialists of America, besides Francesca hung who we just talked about a lot of these a lot of what they've been going to war against is is Democrats who aren't DSA who they just believe are too far left and particularly on Israel, particularly in Israel.Yes, and then some other issues as well.

But so like and then they call it the in the in the piece they call it the DSA Dodge, which is candidates who explicitlyrunning as DSA candidates, but still seem too far left for them.And so they're tagging those candidates with it too.And they're talking about opera research and the DSA platform and all that shit.The DSA platform, who's running on the fucking national DSA platform?How many candidates are actually in America running on the DSA platform?

Like none of the, you know, Mamdani was breaking with a lot of the DSA platform.He was like the big DSA person.AOC is not DSA.Like it's if you don't like the left, go after or make an argument against the policies that people on the left are proposing that you don't think are popular or the right policy or whatever.Like if you're upset about Medicare for all, talk about Medicare for all.If you don't like abolishing ICE, talk about abolishing ICE.

If you have a problem with the Israel policy, talk about the policy.But the tendency of a lot of centrists to just like attack DSA and this, it's just, it's really, I think it's totally counterproductive, totally counterproductive.

If you believe, as I do, that we need to have a big 10 party that includes a bunch of candidates who are to the right of me personally and probably the right to a lot of Democrats and a lot of listeners of the show to be able to win in states like Montana, Nebraska, the Dakotas, Arkansas.Right.If we need to be able to ever get to the place where we have a governing majority, we're going to need a very big tent that has a bunch of people with views we don't agree with on all of them.We don't agree with all their views.If you believe that and you believe that we will, if we just keep it nominating candidates too liberal for the States, that we will keep losing the States, what you need to do is you need to, instead of telling voters that their choice is wrong or stupid, you have to give them another better choice.And so therefore you need a, you need candidates, you need ideas that speak to the exact things that are fueling the rise of these DSA candidates, livid anger at the establishment.

I don't just mean Chuck Schumer and Akeem Jeffries.I mean,the political, economic, cultural establishment of this country, of a political and economic system that has let them down.You need a candidate who can speak to, with real ideas that mean something to people, talk to speak to their economic pain, right?You need to be like, you have to actually, what the third way is trying to do here, which is just, I think, is they are trying to treat the symptoms and not the cause.If you believe that this is a huge problem, what they are going to do is, I think, have the exact opposite effect of what they want.

If you talk to anyone who's running grassroots organizations right now, big donors to the Democratic Party are not giving to Democratic Party infrastructure the way they have before.They are scared of Trump.They are pissed about 2024.They think their money was lit on fire by super PACs who spent a billion dollars in ads.And so they are not funding the sort of groups to the level they were in Trump 1 .0, like groups like Run for Something, Swing Left, Votes Save America, those sorts of groups.And so the fact that this one group has come into $15 million, you're going to spend it on this instead of the things we actually need to win races and build power in this country in a fight back against Trump is just so infuriating.

Also, there's a lot of other groups and some of them are new, like more center left moderate groups, whatever you want to call it, who've been working to like recruit and help and train some of the candidates who are frontline candidates who are, you know, further to the right than most people in the audience, right?They're running all over the country right now.Yeah.And there's some good and they're and like, no problem with them.Some of them are really great, exciting young candidates.Do that.

But the third way in particular, over the last year, 80 % of the time I've heard them come up, it's when they've been yelling about fucking Hassan Piker.And Zoran Mamdani.And Zoran Mamdani.And it's just like,is that what you want to be known for?Like, just yelling about Hassan fucking Piker all the time?

Like, that's what they, like, had their big splashy Wall Street Journal op -ed about it.And then they yelled about it again.And they're still yelling about it.It's just like, enough.Just talk about what you're for.Talk about your vision.

Talk about your policies.Talk about some exciting candidates.Try to have that breakthrough.So, we talked on Tuesday's show about the abuse allegations against Ohio House Republican Max Miller, the former son -in -law of Senator Bernie Moreno.Somehow things have gotten even worse.Miller refused to drop out in an utterly bizarre interview with Jake Tapper, who opened the conversation by asking about an allegation that Senator Moreno had recently made which is that Miller had recently held his daughter's favorite blue bunny stuffed animal hostage.

Miller denied the allegation and told Moreno to please stop the lies.But Mother Jones's Abby Vassilis, who's covered the story in depth, reported on Thursday that Miller's alleged withholding of the bunny was, quote, part of a pattern of behavior and not a single incident.And she goes through it's like a fucking year and a half of Max Miller trying to withhold this bunny.from his daughter.I can't even believe I'm saying the words.It's like such a fucked up story.

Here's a clip from Miller's interview with Jake on Tuesday.So you see what we're talking about.

This is nothing more than an individual who's being politically vindictive and talking about a blue bunny.If any of these things were true, Jake, A judge would have taken our baby girl out of my hands.What you have is a very sadly politically motivated scenario to where, you know, people want to see me go away.

There is a police report from the suspected child abuse incident in February involving your daughter, and that report details that the child protection team says that your child had a robbery.fracture, and quote, a bruise that accompanies the injury that appears to be in a handprint and appears to have been inflicted, unquote.Now, your ex -wife stated to police that your child told her in the days leading up to the discovery of the injury, quote, Daddy kill you.Can you explain why your child may have said those things?

Jake, I wish you could talk to my beautiful baby girl.She can't string together sentences like that.She's two and a half years old.She doesn't have the ability to articulate any of what you just said.That is an entire fabrication of the truth.I have actual video, actual documentation.

I have been through two investigations.You just told me that she had said that she was scared to go to Mommy's house.She is, and I have video of it.But now you're saying that she's not capable of saying, Daddy, kill you?I mean, it seems like she's either able to say one, but not the other.That doesn't make sense.

Jake, to be very direct, this is incredibly disturbing.

My first thought when I when I first saw this was like, this little girl is going to grow up and like this is going to be on the Internet.This is like in the public.It's just I cannot believe that a father would like bring this into the public sphere to talk about in any way, shape or form.opposed to just staying quiet dropping out doing whatever it is is it is Evil it is basically sociopathic.Yeah, I mean, I don't know if your boys had like a thing they had to sleep with hat I mean we we have put a fucking air tag in bear bear and I once I once like drove to Charlie's School at night to try to locate it because he had forgotten it at school if we like if we flew somewhereas a family and forgot Bear Bear, when we landed, Emily or I would be like, have to get on a plane to go back to Los Angeles to get the bear.

Yeah, Jack, who's five now, but he had, he still sleeps with, but kitty cat, which is a kitty cat.And at once we were in a hotel and I didn't take it out of the bed before housekeeping came and they took all the sheets and took kitty cat with them.Oh my God, oh my God.And the efforts that we just, we went to, to try to, we kitty cat returned safe and sound, but just the idea that like people who don't have kids who are listening, like, I know you think we sound crazy, but like when you have kids, it is, it is, it is like, it's their whole world.It's just, it is there.It's the thing that gives them comfort.

It's the thing they want when they sleep.It's the thing they want when they're upset, when they get hurt, they go get that thing.And the idea that a parent.would hold that hostage as a point of leverage over their estranged spouse is psychotic.It is someone like it is soulless behavior.It's truly the whole thing is the whole thing is horrifying.

It's horrifying for this girl.Just the idea that this fucking asshole wants to be in Congress so much that he's putting his family through this, putting his daughter, his two and a half year old daughter through this is terrifying.It's fucking horrifying.

Trump was asked again today Thursday in the Oval, if he called on Miller to drop out again, he said, I'm not getting involved.Trump won't say anything.Mike Johnson is like, oh, it'll go through the ethics committee, a bunch of Republican senators to their credit, I guess, because their colleagues with Bernie Marino have all called on him to drop out and said that, you know, I just saw Tim Shee from Montana be like, he's this is disgusting.Like, what are you doing?So you get a bunch of Republican senators calling to drop out.But like, you're not seeing it in the House, of course, or from Mike Johnson or from Donald Trump.

And this guy is just gonna, I mean, do you think he drops out?Do you think Democrats have a chance of beating him now?I hope so.

Democrats very much have a chance of beating him.So this is a district that Trump won by 11.He has until Monday to get off the ballot.And if it happens after Monday, then the county chairs cannot replace him on the ballot.And so there was a poll, this poll was put up by a Republican firm, because the people who want to win the Republican, want the Republicans to keep the majority, really want him off the race.But that poll had John Poindexter, the Democrat, winning by 14 points.

Last week, they had Poindexter up by five points.And then 87 % of the people in the district were aware of the allegations.So yes, I think if Miller stays in, this Democrats, I think this would most likely be a flip.And that's in a Trump 11 district.

Good.Fuck him.But like, honestly, losing is not enough.The guy, the guy, Tommy said this on Tuesday, but he should be in jail.Miller isn't the only House Republican in trouble this week.North Carolina's Chuck Edwards, also in the House, has ended his re -election campaign in a very competitive seat after the House Ethics Committee released a 25 -page report finding that he engaged in, quote, persistent, unprofessional, and inappropriate conduct towards two young female staffers.

That includes, quote, lavish and recurrent gifts, making comments regarding the staffers appearance and dress, inviting them to intimate dinners and vacations, and sending notes regarding his effusive affection.Some examples, this has been reported by Axios, some great original reporting there, giving the staffers each a personalized handgun, one pink and one blue, telling one of the staffers in a goodbye note that she'd, quote, written a complex chapter in my heart, and sending a staffer a custom jigsaw puzzle that once againrevealed an invitation to dinner and an Adam Sandler show.Edwards, who has been married since 1980, maintained that nothing inappropriate or sexual took place.What kind of message would you send in a custom puzzle, Dan?I've actually, John, you'd be surprised.

I've thought about this for a long time.I wondered how I could deliver this message to you.And I figured I now realize a puzzle is the best way to do it.And so it'd be a puzzle.You'd put it together.What you would see is your phone.

And on your phone would be the Twitter app.On the bottom part, it would say, discretion is the better part of valor.

I didn't even know this was out there until it happened.

It's been a very busy week of Republican assholes doing terrible things.And so I'm not surprised the custom puzzle didn't hit your radar.Is this going to be a Democratic pickup now?Yes, actually.This is a swing seat and there's a very strong Democratic candidate here.I think his name is Jamie Ager.

That Jennifer Palmieri actually mentioned to me when I talked to her about long play.Oh, nice.About exciting Democratic candidates.

Okay, great.Well, Chuck Edwards, good riddance.All right.One more item to discuss.Tucker 2028.It has begun.

On Saturday, newlywed Marjorie Taylor Greene posted a photo with her husband and Thomas Massey, Joe Kent.The guy who had quit the Trump administration over Iran, the national security guy.They were all gathered around a table at Tucker Carlson's compound in Maine.MTG's caption said Trump betrayed his no more foreign wars promise and that, quote, the movement has begun.Kent later told the Young Turks, as one does, that a third party was in the works and that they were trying to convince Tucker to run in 2028.But so far he has said he won't.

On Tuesday, Tucker reposted MTG's photothe caption, MAGA was betrayed.We all were.It's time for a new path forward.He then told people to tune into his Wednesday episode where he laid out his 10 point vision for America.Sounds pretty.

Sounds pretty.I'm going to run in 2028.What do you think, though?Trial balloon?Total bluff?Something real?

This is a weird time to announce this, but Early next year, I'll be taking a leave of absence to work on ballot access for this group because I think this is exactly what we want.

Yeah, I mean, they're talking about a unity ticket.They want someone on the left.They want a left populist and a right populist.Who do you think the left populist would be?Well, here's the thing.I don't know if you looked at Tucker's 10 -point vision.

I did not, no.Yeah, so there's some of the stuff that we have you know, played him saying and maybe even agreed with on, you know, anti -war, anti -war in Iran, especially Epstein file stuff.But then there's the like, you know, the low, then there's the sort of, there's the Maha stuff in there.There's like low birth rate.And then there's like no more immigrants while we wait and figure out what's going on.So I just think that there's, you know, I think that, you know, a lot of more moderate types, establishment types, believe in horseshoe theory.

And I think in some areas, horseshoe theory is correct.But I think that some of the far -right's views, particularly on immigration, are just going to be anathema to even the most left -wing folks.

I made a joke about ballot access.Let me explain why I would be doing that.clear.Um, like there's been, there's been a lot of talk of Tucker Carlson being a formidable presidential candidate because of his media skills, because he may, because mainly because of his media skills.He, that is, was always under the assumption he would be the Republican nominee.Tucker Carlson, a third party candidate, is a gift to Democrats like you cannot imagine because it's, he's going, there aren't a lot of potential John Ossoff, AOC, Kamala Harris, Gavin Newsom, Josh Shapiro, voters who are voting for Tucker Carlson.

But there are a lot of disillusioned Trump 2024 voters who might vote for Tucker Carlson.Yes, that's how you win.So that would be very good news.Like, we should encourage this.This would be great.It is even if it's unlikely to come to fruition, ballot access is very, very hard to get.

It takes none of these people seem like actual nuts and bolts doer types.It's kind of a bunch of idea guys.But it It does speak to how much the MAGA coalition has truly fractured under Trump's second term, right?Because of Epstein, primarily because of the war, that there are these incredibly prominent people with large audiences who have soured on Trump.And it doesn't show up in the polling because the polling asks you if they're MAGA voters and MAGA voters to voters means Trump voters.And so once you stop being a Trump Republican, you stop telling pollsters you're a MAGA voter.

So but it is like there's a real split here and Trump is losing control of the coalition that elected him.And that's good news for Democrats, too.

I found it interesting in relation to Vance, because when I took a look at Tucker's 10 point vision for America, A lot of the policies and a lot of the things he was saying are our views that J .D.Vance has espoused in some way over the last several years in post post -MAGA transformation.And I also found interesting the Washington Post story Thursday that reported Trump a few weeks ago told a bunch of donors in the Oval Office, which wild place for donors just sitting in the Oval Office.He told them that, quote, at the end of the day, we need to elect JD.So then, and the story also said that one advisor has told the Post that he settled on JD now.

And then a bunch of other advisors say, no, no, no, he's still working it out between JD and Rubio.And then he was just asked Thursday in the Oval about this story.He said, did you say that?Is that true about JD?And he said, no.So he denied it.

But I do think that J .D.Vance is eyeing the Tucker movement here and is probably trying to mend fences, or at some point will try to mend fences with Tucker to try to head this off.you know, J .D.Vance is going to try to pull the like, what Trump administration seemed like a real failure to me.

And I was just being a good soldier and I was the vice president.So, of course, I wasn't going to speak up at the time, but everyone knew how I felt about the war in Iran.Everyone knew how I felt about the Epstein files.That was very clear in all the stories.But what was I supposed to do?But here I am standing shoulder to shoulder with Tucker and M .

T .G.and all the rest of the gang.

Well, here's the here's the problem for that idea, which is he still has to go to work in the same building as Donald Trump every day.

During what during the campaign?Yeah.

Yes, and maybe he's unless he's locked out of the way And Trump has still will still have access to his truth social account and yeah, we'll still talk reporters every day.So is think about how hard it was in her own mind for Kamala Harris to break with Joe Biden.And all she was going to have to do with was an awkward conversation in the Oval Office.Trump will just trash him on true social.And so, like in his mind, he thinks he could run away from Trump.But I think that is much harder, practically, with the practical reality of a campaign as the sitting vice president.

Yeah.More likely is that Tucker moves to him and embraces him again, and then he heads it off that way.But we'll see.All right.Dan's conversation with David Crowley.

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com slash Crooked.Joining me now is Milwaukee County Executive and Democratic candidate for Wisconsin Governor David Crowley.David, welcome to the pod.Thank you for having me, glad to be here.My co -host, Jon Favreau, talked to your opponent, Francesca Hong, earlier this week.And with early voting underway in the primary election, only a few days away, it's great to get an opportunity to talk to you both about where the election stands and the issues that matter to Wisconsin voters.

This race for a lot of folks out there in the country, and I think even for myself, is kind of flying under the radar until a couple of weeks ago when we had candidates dropping out, candidates getting back in.And now, you know, there's some intense focus here, but maybe for those who have not paid that much attention, could you explain if you were in the race for a long time, you got out of the race, you got back in the race.Can you explain the circumstances behind that and where the race stands right now with a few days to go to the election?

Absolutely.And I want people to bear with me.I've been traveling across the states and my voice is a little shaky.a little bit.But I made a decision.I make decisions based off of facts, based off of data.

And so when I decided to suspend my campaign, it was based off of what we had in front of us.But as you can imagine, we've learned so much information.Information was changing consistently and every day.We end up learning that the facts and the data that we were relying on was pretty much false.And so when the lieutenant governor decided to end her campaign due to her campaign finance struggles, we know that we had to get back in this race, right?And I'll be honest with you, I didn't make this decision lightly, right?

It's a very difficult decision to not only suspend your campaign, but to come back.And if it wasn't for a good push from my wife, my better three quarters, Erica, as well as, you know, Lieutenant Governor getting out, you know, we understood what was at stake.And so we needed to make sure, for me, that we have a great candidate that can ultimately defeat Tom Tiffany this upcoming November, which requires someone who has executive experience, who's been able to govern and actually build coalitions across the state.

When Governor Tony Evers, who is supporting your candidates, he was asked if Francisco Hong could win.He said probably not.Is that your assessment as well?Do you think that if she is the nominee, Democrats cannot defeat Tom Tiffany, the Republican candidate in November?

Well, the governor has his right to his own opinion.But I will say this is the first time that I've seen the governor agree with the Republican Governors Association, agree with Turning Point USA.because they're spending millions of dollars on her behalf to prop her up as the candidate.And as I travel across this state, you know, people are afraid of socialism in Wisconsin.And so they want somebody who's going to be pragmatic, who's going to get things done.And that's why I believe and truly understand why Governor Evers thought that I was the best candidate.

You know, I've had the opportunity to work with him for a very long time.And he trusts my judgment.He trusts my leadership and my abilities.

Is the main problem with her candidacy, in your view, Hong's association with the DSA?Or is it something else about her candidacy that makes her a particularly vulnerable Democrat against Tiffany?

You know, when I when I think about this race, I don't look at myself as being them as opponents.I'm not running against anybody, right?I'm running for the votes of Wisconsinites across this state.And so I'm focused on what I've been able to deliver.I'm the only candidate that not only served in the state legislature as a state representative, as a legislative staffer, so I know exactly how our state capital works, but I've been leading the largest community, largest county in the state of Wisconsin, representing 19 different cities and villages, close to a million people.And I know that folks want somebody who's not just going to talk about a vision as far as what we need to do in the future, but they want to know who's going to deliver.

And I think at the end of the day, the foundation of this campaign is who's going to be able to get things done.And I'm the only candidate in this race to do so.

Let's talk about some of the issues where there are differences between you and Hong.I want to start with data centers.You do not support a moratorium on data centers, although you have proposed some guardrails that you think should be put in place.A recent Marquette University poll showed that 88 percent of Democrats had concerns about data centers, three quarters of all Wisconsin voters.Talk to me about why you oppose what seems to be a very popular idea in a data center moratorium.

Well, I think that people hear moratorium, they think we're going to stop what's already being built and we can't do that.Right.And so for me, a moratorium is short term thinking, but doesn't address the long term concerns that Wisconsinites have about these data centers.Right.I do believe that data centers should have to pay their way, pay for their utility usage, pay for energy and grid upgrades.And I actually call it the Beyonce approach.

Now, you may be wondering, what does Beyonce have to do with that?I do.You got me there.But it's an acronym.Bring your own new clean energy.Right.

And so they don't have toyou know, solar, they need to be building wind, they need to be building data stores so it's not being, you know, passed on to the cost of the consumers here in the States.You know, our clean air and water doesn't stop at Wisconsin.So we need to make sure that we have the guardrails, particularly for what's already in place, especially with the fact that, you know, not only she served in the state assembly and she's currently there, And they left session without actually protecting our community.And I think that's what we should be focusing on versus allowing it to be a political football that still is being kicked down the road when the next governor is sworn in in January of 2027.

While there is obviously tremendous popular support for a moratorium or stopping data centers or however you want to think about it, there are elements of the Democratic coalition who think there are some benefits there, particularly building trade unions.Do you think there are potential economic benefits for communities?For data centers to be built, if the guardrails that you put in place, your Beyonce approach, if you will, is put in place.

I do think that we should be looking at how we can extract as much from these data centers versus data centers extracting from our natural resources and our people.And so when I think about the construction of data centers, we need to make sure, one, they're utilizing union labor.We need prevailing wages.We need, you know, community benefit agreements and not just in the communities that data centers are in, but for the entire state of Wisconsin, because we're all going to be affected in some type of capacity.And so if we could leverage these data data centers for our local municipalities, government, our farmers, our legacy industries, our small businesses, our public schools.We should be looking at those opportunities moving forward because they're already here.

Another issue is school vouchers.Hong has called for the elimination of Wisconsin's school voucher program that's been in place for decades now.My understanding is that you are not for eliminating it, but you're also not for expanding it.Talk a little about your position on school vouchers.

Well, when it comes down to our public schools, I'm a publicgraduate.I want to be very clear about that.I have three daughters and all of them go to Markey Public Schools.One just graduated from public schools and will be attending one of our public university system schools this year.And so when it comes down to vouchers, when people say we're just going to get rid of them, I don't think they're being honest about the situation or really realistic?

I mean, one, this is going to upend not just, you know, these children's learning, but also families.But what will this do actually to the public school system?In the city of Milwaukee, we have about 60 to 70 ,000 students total.half of those kids are actually in the voucher program.And so if you were to eliminate the voucher program, and we just did a $250 million referendum to make sure that we have enough students, I mean, enough resources for those students, how are we going to send 30 ,000 of those students to the public schools?They don't have the buildings.

They don't have the teachers.They don't have the support systems.And so we have to focus on how do we rebuild our schools to where they become the school of choice, but we have to hold vouchers accountable.They have to be transparent and they need to be held to the same standards of our public schools.And so just to say that we're going to end this is not really being realistic or honest with the public, to be honest with you.

OK, another issue, and this seems like a high class problem for the people of Wisconsin, is there's a big debate about what to do with the two point five billion dollar surplus.

Yeah.

And the there was a deal that was struck between the Republicans and Governor Evers that ultimately died in the Senate, but involved using that money and tax rebate checks to Wisconsinites and some money for special education.I think you were the one candidate in the gubernatorial race who said they would have signed that deal.Can you talk to me about why you think that that would have been a good deal?

Well, I would have signed that deal because that means, Dan, it would have been bipartisan.That means that Republicans and Democrats would've actually voted for it to actually get to my desk for me to sign.The reason why the governor didn't sign it is because it didn't pass.And I hope it didn't pass because this is what different districts wanted versus us playing politics.You know, there are a lot of people who are desperate.They're looking for someone to help them provide them relief when it comes down to property taxes, childcare, how do they afford their premiums when it comes to the healthcare, afford the groceries on their table.

And so we know that our community is desperate and we need to provide some type of relief.And so, yes, I would have signed that if it would have passed, because that means that we would have gotten a bipartisan deal.And when you think about divided government, like I know what it's like to have to lead and make sure that we're taking care of everybody in this state.I didn't agree with everything in that bill.There are things in that bill that I absolutely like, but it's about how do we make the biggest positive impact in people's lives at this moment, especially when they're being under attack by this federal government.

Recognizing that that was the deal that was on the table, that was the bipartisan deal, that compromise is necessary in divided government.In an ideal world, what would you do with that surplus?If you could just.wave a wand, make a decision as potentially future governor, David Crowley.

Oh man, if I could wave a wand, I'll be the governor, right?But you know what I mean.

Yeah, we don't have any wands on the show, unfortunately.

I mean, for me, I mean, one, you want to provide relief and we want to make sure that we're taking care of our young people.So I think about, you know, our property taxes by making sure that we're investing in public education that will help naturally ease the property tax pressures that property taxpayers are facing each and every single day because we've had to go to referendum to make up the support from the state that we have lost over the few decades.It's about making sure that we can invest in child care, right?There are a lot of people who are making decisions whether or not they're going to go back to school.or if they're going to stay at home because it's not affordable nor is it accessible and we know that the next governor has to be ready on day one because there's going to be a lot of holes to fill due to the federal government making a decision to have cuts across the board for each community across this country.And so when it comes down to healthcare, we have to make sure that we're taking care of our most vulnerable populations, and especially in our rural communities as well, because we've seen clinics as well as hospitals closing.

But this is about, you know, when I think about this surplus, you know, I always want to bring more people to the table.I was told that if you don't have a seat at the table, you're on the menu.And you think about our young people, they feel like they've been on the menu.Our older adults, our farmers, you know, our teachers, they've all been on the menu because nobody is actually listening to them and allowing them to lend their voices to the solutions.And that's how we're going to move forward in order to create the sustainability that we need across Wisconsin.

All across the country, particularly in Democratic primaries, there's been this anti -establishment fervor, right?Candidates closely associated with the establishment have lost.I know you have strongly rejected the label of establishment candidate in this race, but I think it is fair to say that you have the support of the sitting governor, you have the support of Congresswoman Gwen Moore.I think to some people, it felt like your return to the race was the product of the establishment coming together to defeat Francesca Hong.You got back in, Iverson Dorsey moments later.Maybe you talk to me a little bit about how you feel about potentially having that label, why that label doesn't fit you and how you plan to be a voice of change in an election where people are very much looking for something different than what they have.

Well, you know, I like how people throw the establishment thing out there.I was not endorsed by, you know, a congressional member until I got back into this race or, you know, a U .S.senator.Right.I wasn't endorsed by any of those people.

things. AndAnd for me, the frustration is because...You know, I've worked my entire life, you know, not to be labeled, not to be placed in a box.You know, my parents were great loving parents.My father was a master electrician.My mother was a Jane of all trades that I lost a couple of years ago.

And they taught me the value of hard work to be resilient and to get back up, you know, when someone knocks you down.But they also suffered from drug addiction and mental health.I was evicted three times before I graduated high school.For at least 15 years of my life, I moved every single year, and I've worked extremely hard to be where I am.And so it does get a little frustrating because I didn't get in this race to protect the establishment.I got into this race to protect the people, to let folks know that they deserve to have a seat at the table, and that I'm willing to come and have the tough conversations to make sure that we're following our state's model and moving Wisconsin forward.

So we're a few days before the election.The polls have shown Hong with a sizable lead.Now the polls were not particularly accurate in Michigan the other day.Your campaign put out a memo suggesting the race is closer than that.Where do you where do things stand right now?What's your path to victory between now and Tuesday?

Our path to victory is making sure that we're talking to as many voters as possible.And when you look at all of the past polls that we have seen, who's been leading in this race has been undecided voters.And we know that we can consolidate many of these undecided voters.When folks understand that I have the endorsement of not just only Governor Tony Evers, Congresswoman Gwen Moore, but the different amount of labor unions that we have, they're starting to understand that there is a path forward.And what we've learned, particularly from Michigan, is that no one thought that we'll be staying up until Wednesday morning to figure out who lost this race.The polls were wildly off.

And so this race is much closer than many people may think.But just because I have the support of the sitting governor in so many areas.great groups and progressive leaders across this state doesn't mean it's going to be a walk in the park.I'm going to work extremely hard traveling across the state to earn every single vote.Over this weekend, we were in Rhinelander, Hudson, Superior, Bayfield, and we're seeing hundreds of people come out as we're doing our rallies.And so I'm energized.

I'm fired up.I'm ready to go.And I'm going to continue to do everything I need to do for the next five days to win this race.

That seems like a great place to end it.David, thanks so much for joining us.Good luck in the final stretch here.Thank you for having me.

That's our show for today.Thanks to David Crowley for coming on.Alex will be back on the feed on Sunday with a conversation with MSNOW's Chris Hayes.Have a good weekend, everyone.