Why is Reform standing by a 'sexist' candidate in Makerfield? | The News Agents

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Rob Kenyon, who is Reform's candidate in the Makerfield by -election, has described himself as a sexist.

Transphobic slurs, Covid misinformation or sexism.And the response you get back from Reform is normally stop trying to make him sound like a normal politician.He's a lad.

I woke up the day after Brexit shitting myself.as to what was voted for.So in some ways, Robert Kenyon, an unlikely channeler of Remain opinion.

I was born in Makefield.If I was elected, I'd be the first person born in the constituency to become the MP.I don't think any MP that's ever stood in Makefield was actually born in the area.I'm a plumber, gas engineer.I've done that for a long time.I did my apprenticeship when I was 18.

I love being a plumber.I do enjoy it.It's hard, but I do enjoy it because I do take pride in the work.I don't know, it gets me a bit emotional sometimes thinking that there's a chance that I could be representing people in Parliament because it's a massive honour.

Rob Kenyon, the reform candidate in the upcoming by -election, is from Makefield.He is a plumber.He is self -made.He is also, in his own words, a sexist.Does anyone even care anymore?Welcome to the News Agents.

It's Lewis.

It's Maitlis.

And this is what seems now a sort of daily and even more than that set of revelations about Robert Kenyon, as we say, Reform UK's candidate in the maker field by election, as we say, accused of sharing, among other things, online on his ex account and other social media accounts, transphobic slurs, Covid misinformation, objectifying women,now deleted social media posts.A lot of this stuff has been discovered by the campaigners Hope Not Hate.In one post, The account that Robert Kenyon had shared a sexually explicit post sent directly to the TV presenter Carol Vorderman on her birthday, in which another user declared he wanted to perform a sexual act on the presenter.user reported the post saying, if you're prepared to put this on a public forum, I would suggest that your computer drive probably needs checking.But the wannabe Makerfield MP replied saying he's only saying what we're all thinking.

He also separately has been reported has attacked women as being promiscuous and accused them of taking any decision to have an abortion lightly.He wrote, reproductive rights, women's rights, they can dress it up all they want.They're deciding to kill a baby inside the womb.What they mean is, they want to shag anyone they want, and if they get caught, they get a second chance and treat it as a secondary, last form of contraception.They ain't kidding anyone.Perhaps this explains why he, in a separate post, said, I'm a sexist, that's what I am.

Look, I think this takes us to the place that... so many of us have been already, which is you talk about transphobic slurs or COVID misinformation or sexism, and the response you get back from reform is normally, oh, stop trying to make him sound like a normal politician.He's a lad.It's locker room bants, locker room not being a phrase or indeed a thing that we ever actually talk about in the UK.It virtually doesn't exist.And, sure enough, Richard Tice, who's the party's deputy leader.has come out this week and called it Westminster rokarati, whining lefties failing to understand that Makefield likes real men.

And I think the truth about this is, it's not just whether he's friends of a fascist, you know, that was the first thing that followed him when he was announced.It's not just that he's slightly sexist, it's that he sounds utterly creepy to women and once you understand the sort of the value, the horror of what he's actually saying.I just think it sort of calls on not just women voters, but anyone to say, oh my God, sorry, you're talking about abortions as vanity projects.You're talking about abortions as things that slags have.Now, there is a whole argument.There is a whole argument, a proper political debate to be had about the length of gestation in abortion.

And that argument is going on, as we know, the world over.And there are many ways to have it in a really thoughtful and sort of heartfelt way if you think, as many people do, that abortion is murder.But to come at it just by calling women slags, by coming at it calling them a vanity project, I just wonder what you are doing to your own vote if you're not absolutely absolutely tanking it, because I can't, I just can't imagine a world in which, you know, men think that's a particularly attractive way of talking about women, either, or, or whether you think that you're, you're kind of representing somebody to go into Parliament for you, that is going to advocate with a kind of proper argument behind what they're saying.So this is starting to build into a really interesting question, which is how reform respond to him.Do they get rich?him?

Do they just say, okay, you know, we thought he was a cheeky, chappy plumber, but actually he's got some horribly dodgy, creepy views.And indeed, I think Zia Yousef, who's the chairman, has come out straight away and said, this is not reform policy.He was speaking before he was a politician, and now he's a politician, he doesn't speak for reform.But the other funny thing, which is just worth dwelling on for a moment, is his pre -politician political beliefs, which the Times has dug up today, which suggests that he didn't actually vote for Brexit.And the party's now trying to reconcile the guy who they think they're putting into the middle of this sort of very Brexiteer part of the world, I mean, we can come on to that, whether it is or not, with the idea that they've got this candidate who actually was quite pro -immigration, the sort of the West Streeting candidate of Makefield.And so now you've got this party trying to work out whether they do they carry on going on about and, oh, he's just a normal lad?

Or do they have to shut down the fact that he didn't even, apparently, vote for Brexit in the first place, which seems to kind of go against everything that their party stands for?

Indeed, The Times is saying that Robert Kenyon said in 2019, as you say, Emily, that he did not vote for Brexit, which is certainly an unusual position for a reform candidate.In fact, the quote is similarly direct as some of the other language we've seen from Mr Kenyon.He says, Brexit, shitting myself as to what was voted for.So in some ways, Robert Kenyon, an unlikely channeler of Remain opinion across the country.So in a way, you know, they say they're a big tent and they are getting bigger.That is nice to see.

What is obviously disturbing, though, is some of the language that at least he appears to have endorsed, as we say online, which, as you say, Emily, I think there seems to be two categories of stuff.that has been dug up about him.And I do have some sympathy.I mean, I have some sympathy with the idea that, you know, in this modern age that we're living, he's not particularly old guy.I think he's in his late thirties.I have some sympathy with the idea that, you know, ordinary people, quote unquote, online before they go into politics, they do tend to use social media differently to those with really big accounts.

Right.We kind of forget this.I think you know, those people in Westminster, journalists, politicians and so on.We're used to sort of using our accounts like we're very much in the public gaze the entire time.We treat the public and the privates the same.It is true to say that the vast, vast, vast majority of people who use even something like X, they might have like 50 followers, 100 followers, 200 followers.

It's basically friends and family, right?And maybe some other randoms.And they kind of do treat it and use it like just whatever comes into their head stream of consciousness and don't expect to be scrutinized about it.And I do think some of the things he said look distasteful like you know what I would sort of describe as and I'm not defending it but the sort of like everyday slightly blokey jokey sexism that you might hear reasonably ordinarily stuff like women can't drive not defending it but like it's kind of like sort of out there that's the sort of thing people say um what I do think is of a slightly different order though is what you've described Emily which is the stuff that frankly is either creepy or clearly you know deeply misogynist and corrosive and unpleasant and clearly as part of that is what what was said about Carol Vorderman, in which he didn't say it, but he did defend, and I think it's worth just letting people hear this.It's graphic and it's really unpleasant, but basically he defended someone who had said that they wanted to lick and smell Carol Vorderman's arsehole.That's the language that was used online.

It's grotesque, it's disgusting, and Kenyon comes along and says, look, he's basically saying what we're all thinking.It's like, Rob, no, no one's thinking that.No one is thinking that.and certainly no one would say it.Carol Vorderman herself is obviously, as you might imagine, had something to say about this.Here's a video where she's described this whole experience.

An account which Reform have not denied is from him says about women and how they look he said that English women don't care and quote just walk around with their flat bellies and odd shapes pushing a pram at 16 in their pj's.This is someone Reform wants to be, an MP.He also said on this post, women can't referee, drive or give directions, and happily declared, I'm sexist.In a Rugby League fans forum, the same account, which again, Reform are not denying is from him.They were talking about European women and Rock Kenyon responded to a post, saying, wouldn't get me off any of those with a bazooka.Charming.

He's a creep.Once Reform said this, oh, he's just an ordinary man making ordinary comments.No, he isn't.He's a disgusting little creep and doesn't deserve to be a Member of Parliament.And Reform have form in all of this.And I'll put that, all of it.

in another post.But for now, Rob Kenyon apologised.

Stitch stitch up the sort of language that we've heard before Richard Tice as you alluded to Emily said has said on X that this is the Westminster woe karate Criticizing the points whiny lefties.Mr. Tice says fail to realize make a fieldalready voted for our great candidate in their many thousands.Local man, local tradesman, real job, Westminster wo -karate, so out of touch.

Why this becomes complicated is, you're right, Lewis, you know, most people don't think about their media posts in the same way that, you know, the Prime Minister or even journalists think about theirs.But it doesn't really matter, to some extent, what we're saying about this.We are kind of irrelevant in this whole conversation, because there is an internecine fight that has already kicked off now between reform and the kind of even more insurgent party, the sort of kid sister that's biting at their heels, which is Restore.And in Makerfield, this is really starting to matter, because Reform in the latest polls are about three points behind Andy Burnham.I mean, let's not even call it Labour, let's call it Andy Burnham.They're sitting on about 40 % of a share of the vote, if that poll is correct.

Restore are sitting on 7%, which is enough of a percentage for them actually to do quite a lot of damage to the reform candidate's chances.And, I mean, yes, Carol Vorderman can absolutely right pinpoint the creepiness of that language.And you kind of know that no women who thinks or likes Carol Vorderman would probably ever go near voting for Robert Kenyon.But take this post.This is just a random person with a kind of St George's flag in their bio that I found on Twitter, who is now comparing Robert Kenyon to Robert Jenrick, who's also in reform, and saying, you are now in the same parties as refugees welcome Jenrick.She's quoting Robert Jenrick for many reasons.

ago, welcoming Afghan refugees as part of the national project.In other words, her insult is not even about the creepy language.It's not even about the fact he sounds utterly gross.It's about the fact that if it is true he didn't vote for Brexit, then she, this person, is putting him in the same camp essentially as a remainer or as a partner in reform, Robert Jenrick.And so suddenly you've got, you understand the fire that reform is starting to fight on both sides.Of course, they're not going to apologise for him sort of sounding like an absolute eejit compared to women.

That's not really reformist style.But what do they do about the Brexit thing?Do they kind of have to let that go as well and say, oh, he's just normal.It's, you know, it's absolutely normal.And it is normal.You know, it's it's fine to have different opinions before you go into politics.

As soon as you post them, you are already committing to being public with those views, to an open forum in which anyone at any point can take them and hurl them back in your face.And frankly, that's what people on all sides of the political divide are doing to him now.

Yeah, indeed.I mean, just on the question of how reform should deal with this.Look, I think how the voters of Makerfield take it is another question.My instinct is, I suspect that Burnham won't campaign particularly hard on this stuff.I think that he will Let it speak for itself.And obviously it's up to make a field to decide.

And I don't like the kind of idea that, you know, suddenly we're suggesting that basically every working class man or every working class man with a van just has views like that or endorses or uses language like that.No, no, they don't.It's certainly true to say that, you know, ordinary people, working class men and women, they don't speak how people in Westminster speak.It is true that the threshold for saying stuff is much higher.People obviously talk in a much more real way.But some of this stuff that Kenyon has said, clearly is way over and above that and is way more extreme.

than you know The average man and woman in make a field or anywhere like that now He could then turn of course turn around and sort of apologize for that and say look I said this in jest or I said this, you know without thinking or whatever it happens to be that is not the reform Kind of response reform response is basically to say none of it really matters This is a woe karate kind of thing which is a sort of level above and I suspect that the reason ultimately That they take that view is because we have learned time time and time and time again, that there aren't increasingly many barriers on the right or many thresholds on the right that will get you, politically speaking or anywhere else, cancelled, if you like.It's certainly true that it would happen on the left.You know, if we discovered that a Green Party or Lib Dem or a Labour person said anything like this, that would have been it because the elites of the party would reject it and the voters would reject it.Right.But but frankly, like, you know, both and it might make a difference in this because it's so tight.I'm not saying that it won't matter.

but but in terms of kind of delegitimizing this guy on the right at elite level or at the kind of core vote level.it's not going to happen.I mean, I was reading, it just made me think, Emily, how far things have moved.You know, I was reading at the weekend a piece, and I totally forgot about this.I don't know if you remember.It was like 20 years ago.

Why should anyone?But, you know, in 2007, we're almost coming up to the 20 -year point where David Cameron quite literally deselected one of his parliamentary candidates for simply saying that his constituents had told him that Enoch Powell had been right about immigration.He wasn't even saying it himself.He was saying that his constituents had said it and he was relaying it and he got deselected.You know, we are a long, long way from that.We are in a different, different political world.

So...Well, can I throw in, it's not, I mean, it was around the same time that Cameron stood up in the Commons and said to one of the frontbenchers opposite, calm down, dear.And that was considered so patronising, soso condescending.And I think to a lot of people, it still is.But Jesus, this is a lot further on than calm down, dear.

I mean, what has happened to that 20 year period of time where, you know, sort of everything has shrunk into something so much more extreme, that that seems like you know, an 18th century complaint.

And I think it is worth just focusing a little bit on Restore.If Restore have sort of passed you by and, you know, I mean, why wouldn't they have in lots of ways?I mean, Restore, people will remember, listeners, viewers will remember the kind of schism that but in reform that we reported on quite a lot of the time between Rupert Lowe, who, of course, was elected as a reform MP in Great Yarmouth.He fell out massively, not unknown in a Nigel Farage story, fell out massively with Farage, has set up his own party, Restore, and quietly, quite extraordinarily really, has in lots of ways been doing quite well, quite quickly.I mean, again, it's something that will have passed most people by, but weirdo and sallow as I am, something that I was really taken aback by.in the local election results was just how well Restore had done in Low's seat of Great Yarmouth.

Like this was a Labour target seat in 2024.It was a Conservative seat before that.It was a Labour seat before that.You know, Great Yarmouth not particularly out there politically in any kind of way.Restore not only did well, they basically swept the board in Great Yarmouth in those elections.They won in every ward.

They were contesting.Low is doing something and it's not just them either.But in national polls, and as you say, Emily, in the Makerfield polls that we have, they are registering, they're not doing brilliantly, but the fact that they're getting in some national polls, even a few percentage points, seven percentage points in Makerfield, that is clearly really worrying reform.It has been so telling over the course of the weekend, how many accounts, how many reform accounts online, butcorporate ones and also you know senior party people including Farage have been tweeting about restore panicking, clearly, basically going, you vote restore, you get Labour, you vote restore, you get Burnham, you get Starmer.It is quite sort of, I mean, there may be Tories, David Cameron, from David Cameron down, sort of having a sort of quiet smile to themselves over the course of the weekend to basically watch Farage get Faraged.

You know, Farage has been, for the last 25, 20, 25 years, you know, biting at the heels of the Conservative Party.constantly forcing them to the right on all sorts of different things, as the insurgent, as the populist.As Farage, this is one of the costs of success for Farage, as he has become almost the mainstream force increasingly on the British right, he's now got, you know, basically happening on sort of double speed and double time, potentially an insurgent force to his own right, which is potentially going to affect him much as a way and it affected the Tories over the years.

Yeah, I think that's right.And I think both party is now fighting for kind of what you'd loosely call the victimhood status, right?So, Restore UK likes to put itself as, as I said, the little brother, the little sister yapping at the heels because they're the ones getting left behind.They're the ones that are the sort of insurgent to Nigel Farage's, you know, big bossy, I think he called him, what was the phrase that he used about Farage?He basically suggested that he was a bit of a tyrant in his own party.And I mean, not the exact words, but, you know, something along those lines.

But what's interesting is that Rob Kenyon, the man in the centre of this row now, is hitting back at Restore's leader, Rupert Lowe, on X. And he said, I used to respect you.Restore have never wanted anything to do with this area.But now someone born with a silver spoon in their mouth is trying to line uponly working class local man in the race.In other words, he's pointing out the fact that Rupert Lowe, like Nigel Farage, is incredibly wealthy.I think he was two time owner of Southampton Football Club.

He's a businessman.He's got a lot of cash when you, you know, you listen to him.He's a sort of posh sounding man.And suddenly, you've got this like, You know, we're all fighting for working man status here.And I think, as you said, it's really ugly, actually, to use the idea of working man as being a sort of excuse for whatever you're saying, whatever language you're saying, whatever you think, whatever views you have, because there are plenty of working class people who do not use language like Rob Kenyon.And there are plenty of people who would absolutely abhor the views that he's coming out with now.

But it's just so interesting to see the fight back is now, I'm more working class than you, Rupert Lowe, and you never cared about this part of the world, which is a working man's part of the world, and you're posh because, what, you're from Great Yarmouth.I mean, as I say, I called it internecine warfare at the start.And if you're Burnham right now, and if you're Labour possibly, I'm sure you're not kind of laughing this out, but you are thinking that this is, for this week at least, making life feel a little bit easier in the run -up to the by -election.

I do think it is a reminder, whoever leads Labour, whether Starmer survives it or it's Burnham or whoever, I think it's a reminder to them and to all of us that the same forces of fragmentation which have rocked the Labour Party and rocked the Conservative Party, just worth noting in parenthesis, by the way, that in that same Makerfield poll, the Conservative Party were at 2%, 2 % in Makerfield.In a seat they got 35 % of in 2019.They are now the third party of the right behind Restore in quite a lot of these places, right?That's mind -blowing.But thisforces of fragmentation of disorder that have, you know, to some extent, as I say, even destroyed the sort of main two parties in parts of the country.

they cannot be contained to those old parties, right, that they can potentially and will probably rock new insurgent forces.

And the fact that...As they did the Greens.Also, in Makefield, the Green candidate had to resign, I think, within 24 hours, 48 hours of him standing, because they'd uncovered tweets that he put about October 7th.In Makefield, As we said right at the beginning, it's becoming such a crucial and such a sort of unavoidable target for everyone to go through the past posts of all the candidates.You're going to end up with this extraordinary field where you know, who knows at the end of it, who kind of who scrapes by because they've just been the least defensive.

Indeed.And the fact that, you know, and I'm not just talking about Makerfield here, but the fact that, you know, something as frankly threadbare and timpah and rabbag as as as the Restore Party, you know, led by Lowe, make no mistake, this is we're talking about a proper hard right party, right?One of the sort of farthest right parties that we've seen in mainstream British politics, I would say, since the since the BNP.You know, the fact that that they and he, this quite unassuming in some way, you know, posho, like kind of can basically kind of, you know, actually enter at least to some extent, some of the sort of mainstream can start reaching people with such relatively little resources, can use the tools of the modern media to do that and start to, as I say, reverse The Farage thing that Farage himself has done over many years, and do that in relatively short time, that is a warning shot and an alarm bell to even insurgent parties that their grip and theirhold on politics right now is, as much as they would like it to appear to be sort of unstoppable and inexorable, actually very, very fragile.very fragile and it doesn't take much in this political media environment to shake it up, even with insurgents, to challenge the insurgents.

And if it is the case, if it is the case that Burnham wins and partly it can be attributed to the difference, Restore making the difference between the Labour and Reform vote, then that will really, I think, really shake up Reform politics and will really start to pose questions for them about their political direction and have to deal with this threat to, frankly, their extreme right.

Just before we get a load of complaints from Southampton fans, although maybe that won't be happening this week, Rupert Lowe was the chairman of Southampton FC.Not owner, but chairman, twice.

Are we big with the Saints?We'll have to look into that.

Well, the Saints are not having the best of times right now.

Let the Saints go marching in.We'll be back.We'll be back right after this.

Nicola Sturgeon told SNP members in 2021 not to ask questions about the SNP's finances.She was very adamant money hasn't gone missing.We now know those party members were asking legitimate questions.Will you apologise to those members?Do you think Nicola Sturgeon herself was misled and is a victim?

Well, Nicola Sturgeon has made clear in her statement, I suspect you will have seen that today, that she was unaware of any of these issues.

Can I ask you if you believe that?

I do believe that, yes.I do believe that.and I think the I think the statement that Nicola has made conveys the depth of her personal agony about this.

That is the just re -elected Scottish First Minister John Swinney talking about the resolution of the court case which has rocked Scottish politics.This is the case of Peter Murrell, the former Chief Executive of the SNP and former, separated husband of the former First Minister, Nicholas Sturgeon.Yesterday in a court in Edinburgh, Murrell pled guilty.It was due to be going to a full court process.It concluded by his pleading guilty early to embezzling over £400 ,000 over a period of 12 years while he was chief executive of of the SMP from SMP party funds, specifically a fund that had been raised from members and from members of the public all over the country to pay the costs of a second independence referendum which never took place.He used the funds to buy items including luxury goods, including a motorhome, jewellery, bizarrely enough even over £2 ,000 on salt and pepper sellers, and towards the purchase of two cars between August 2010 and October 2022.

Top police officer said Murrell diverted the cash from party funds to bankroll a lavish lifestyle he craved but could not afford.For her part, Nicola Sturgeon Has said that she wants to reiterate that she had no knowledge or suspicion whatsoever that personal items had been purchased Using SMP funds and although of course she was arrested as part of the same investigation She was released without charge and she said shewas therefore cleared of any wrongdoing.

as low down as a onesie, you know, a super snoozy onesie.And in between there are coffee makers, three thousand pound coffee makers.There are Montblanc pens.There are Caran d 'Ache pencil sharpeners.The list is so weird and wonderful and esoteric and honestly, just jaw dropping that you spend ages kind of going, oh, so he bought Borgen DVDs and he bought the killing DVDs.He liked Scandi Noir, but he also really liked posh coffee, but he also liked a motorhome, but he also liked really posh cars.

And he, we understand, bought a bag that Nicola Sturgeon was actually seen with.Now, she has, as you say, denied all wrongdoing, and she went through the police investigation herself.She has reiterated that today.But when Swinney speaks of the depth of personal agony, I'm not sure that for a lot of other people in or around the party, the SNP, the matter will end there with Sturgeon's personal agony, because there are plenty of questions, I think, that still pursue what happened over that extraordinary 10 -year period.Joanna Cherry, who was once at the very centre of the SMP, fell out with Nicola Sturgeon quite publicly, has said that she shows a remarkable lack of curiosity over the kind of goods that just were turning up or coming into her house.Nicola Sturgeon said they had different bank accounts, she said they lived very financially separate lives.

They were both earning enough for it not to sort of strike as anything too odd.But I think, you know, certainly Joanna Cherry thinks it is quite odd and says, if my partner was bringing in this kind of stuff, I would have a few questions.And why she feels so angry about this and so, frankly, embittered, is that she raised questions when she was part of the kind of committee that looked at the SNP's funding, she literally raised questions about what was happening to that money and she got shut down.I think it is important, maybe we can play Nicola Sturgeon, trying to tell people that actually they would undermine their own cause by making people feel as if it wasn't going to the right place.So There are people now who say, hang on a second, you didn't notice the Jaguar.You didn't notice the Lalique salt and pepper pot.

You didn't notice the Smithson handbag.And when people tried to call the alarm, you didn't want anyone to hear.Just listen to her then.

Just be very careful, all of us, about suggestions that there are problems with the party's finances, because we depend on donors to donate.There are no reasons for people to be concerned about the party's finances.

So how do we make sense of the fact that she clearly didn't want much of an investigation to go ahead then?She says that she cooperated fully with the police investigation.She was, you know, in a sort of deposition for, I think, up to seven hours.The Scottish Sun is reporting actually what they call frustration amongst the police officers who questioned Nicola Sturgeon at the time because By all accounts, by their accounts, by whoever's leaked this to the Sun, she preferred not to answer in a very full way.She says she cooperated fully, but the accounts that have come out of that deposition essentially suggest that she said, you know,the effect of no comment, or I can't answer that, or I don't recall.

Stuff that essentially shut down their ability to get kind of broader answers from her as to what was actually going on then.

Yeah, and I think this is what's so uncomfortable about this for the SNP, including the leader, John Swinney, and for Nicola Sturgeon, which is, look, she's given this account that, you know, they were living You know, they both had good salaries, she didn't notice, that's despite the fact that there are photographs which show her clearly in possession of, having received some of the items that he bought.Lots of people have said they find that incredulous.But there is a, or incredible, but there is a separate question as to why she as the leader of the SMP was not just potentially in receipt of these things in a private capacity.As you heard there, as a senior party officer, the most senior party officer, she had a fiduciary function and responsibility to the board of the SMP, and to its members to sign off those accounts.And there have long been questions about whether it was appropriate for the chief executive and the leader to be in a relationship, that there's a clear conflict of interest there, even if she did not know what was going on.that there was a clear conflict of interest.

And those questions now don't just extend solely to Nicola Sturgeon to make account of, but do extend to other senior members of the SNP leadership who have been around for a long time.And this is especially uncomfortable, of course, for John Swinney, who, although he's the first minister now and is one of Nicola Sturgeon's successors, he, of course, was party leader all the way back at the turn of the millennium and appointed Peter Murrell,to the position of Chief Executive.You know, he is, and the other senior parts of the SNP, they are our and long have been, you know, deeply enmeshed in the party's hierarchy and party's function.And therefore, this isn't just a case of sort of being able to say as a newish party leader, look, I'm a I'm a new broom.John Sweeney and the people around him, they're the old broom.

They are part of this network.That's not to say, of course, that he would be aware of any of this and he's not generally genuinely agonized about it.But it reveals and averts to what a kind of small world that is.And to be honest, let's be honest, confirms many of of much of the public's worst suspicion of how politics operates.

Yeah, I think that's right.I mean, Peter Murrell was brought in as chief executive by Swinney in 2001.Where are we now?2026, so 25 years later, and the same man, John Swinney, is still atop the party.And that period of theft, I mean, it was it was not taxpayer, it was SMP member theft, right, frankly, went on for a period of 10 years.So I think there will be a lot of people now who say, well, yeah, okay, you're back in power, you know, you did well in the election, you got voted back in.

But maybe it is time for a new leader now.Maybe it is time for an old sweeping out.And the people that A lot of SMP members are talking about or are keeping a close eye on is Stephen Flynn.You'll remember he used to be the leader of the SMP at Westminster and he is now fighting his own by -election and I think all eyes will be on him as a kind of, does he represent the new look SMP?Does he represent a newer generation?Does he sort of end the Swinney, Murrell, Sturgeon, sort of, you know, triumvirate that has been atop

SNP politics for two decades now.

I think it's just worth, I was very taken and struck by this tweet, which I think does sort of illustrate Like, just how personal and how affronted and how appalling this theft, as you say, Emily, is for a lot of, you know, SMP people.And not just SMP people, but pro -independence people, right?Jo McAlpine used to be a member of the Scottish Parliament.She's still a member of the SMP.And she said this, over 10 years.The 250 quid sub was an obligation for all MPs and MSPs but I was happy to pay as I believed it was going to the cause of independence.

Not to keep Sturgeon in smiths and handbags and Mont Blanc plans, stolen goods she was pictured with in this some report.One of all the deece, I had a good salary.But what of all the decent working people who could ill afford the £10 or £20 donations toward the SNP?It's disgusting and requires an internal investigation, or rather, an independent investigation.And I think just to link it back to what we were just talking about.in the first half about how fragmented politics is, how quickly politics can move, how new forces can very quickly enter the scene.

Look, the SNP had a great election result in Scotland, but it reminds me a little bit of the 2024 Labour general election result, right?It's a bit of a loveless landslide, you know, like it was basically as a result of the fact the Labour government is deeply unpopular.If that election had happened two years earlier at the same time as the Westminster election, the SNP would have done much worse.Although the SNP are in a weirdly paradoxical position, they continue to be sort of hedging in Scottish politics but they are proving unsuccessful at being able to unlock their central cardinal goal which is another independence referendum.And on top of that, you have the whiff of scandal and corruption, which is now dogging them as a party which has been dominant in Scottish politics for 20 years.If those aren't circumstances or propitious potential circumstances for a new insurgent force, we saw reform do very well there, maybe a new independence type force, who knows?

But if those aren't circumstances for a new challenger, potentially to the SNP if they're not careful, than I don't know what would be.

Yeah, Peter Morrell at this point is probably facing a fairly lengthy jail sentence.He comes across now as sort of Hollywood's answer to Imelda Marcos, doesn't he, with her shoes.And I think even if Sturgeon is not directly aware of any of this going on, it leaves a stench over the whole party at this point.And I guess it asks whether Just as Swinney is starting, he's relaunched this whole question of independence now.He said it's time to put that back to the people.And from where things were about a week ago, there was, I think for the first time in many years, more people kind of siding with a yes vote, a yes to independence, a yes to Scottish independence, maybe people who were looking at Westminster, maybe people who were sort of thinking about reform coming in south of the border.

I don't know what that does now.to the shape of Scottish politics, but it can't be particularly healthy for the SNP.

delegitimize, to a large extent, I think, their most successful political leader they've ever had, which is Sturgeon.Because of that stench, as you say, Emily, even though she was cleared in that investigation and so on, clearly the questions will dog her and haunt her for a long time, and she will not be the kind of post -political player that she might have been.Talking about post -political players, potentially, we'll be talking about another one in American politics when we come back.

You might have missed over the incredibly sunny bank holiday the resignation of Tulsi Gabbard.Tulsi Gabbard was Trump's national security advisor.She was famously very anti -war.Her whole position as a former Democrat had been against the Iraq war.And when she was pulled into the Trump cabinet, many people thought that he'd sort of warmed to her because of her anti -war stance.Obviously, her position became very, very difficult once Trump decided to arbitrarily take the country, if not the world, to war with Iran.

And she resigned, citing her husband's grave illness of bone cancer that she said she wanted to spend more time time at his side, which is 100 % understandable.This has created a slightly weird dynamic now between people who are left in the cabinet and are anti -Wall, because frankly, there aren't many of them.In fact, all fingers are pointing to J .D.Vance and saying, you're on your own now.You're virtually the only person left around Trump that told him, according to your own accounts, according to the public accounts, not to go to Wall.

So where does J .D.Vance sit now?Does he still run a chance at being VP?Does he sit this whole thing out?Does he just kind of try and play the grey man in the corner till nobody's talking about Iran anymore?

And this is becoming a really live question.

Yes, indeed.I mean, and also we see reports of his deciding whether he might even not run in the twenty twenty eight presidential election, such as his stock falling in August.of the MAGA movement and the Republican movement generally.Some press reports source close to the president apparently telling the Daily Mail that Vance is a non -event in the West Wing, coming at a moment when Marco Rubio's stock as the Secretary of State has never been higher, although that's sort of a bit weird when you consider that Rubio has not been able to in any way kind of resolve the Iran crisis.But anyway, but apparently his stock is high because he's helping to plan an invasion of Cuba.So there we go.

You know, when in a hole, just just keep digging.Just start somewhere else.Keep bombing.Keep bombing.Good.Right.

Well, we will doubtless be back and for the invasion of Cuba, covering it live from Havana by the end of the week.We'll see you then.Bye bye.

Bye for now.

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